 How do I convince people not experienced with journey mapping to use tools including sophisticated ones like Custulance So I can totally imagine this you're actually you're the person excited about journey mapping You see the value and organization you think we need to do this So the first challenge is how do I get my team to start using journey mapping? And then the next step is even how do I convince them to use more sophisticated? Tools, I think there's a challenge so many people run into do you recognize this Daniel? Yeah, yeah for sure definitely and what I also recognize is that the people that use Sophisticated tools like Custulance they have been on a journey They have started with the post-its. They have tried to do it in Excel. They have understood. It doesn't work They have tried to do it in InDesign and then you have it as an image They have tried to add such and then they try to convince other people internally that haven't been on this journey They have an experience in Spain. Yeah. Yeah, yeah to go with sophisticated tools like Custulance. I mean, how could you ever? Think that those people Without that year of struggle with with like Stone Age solutions How could they ever think of going with a tool for this? I think that what you have to do is to really I mean first as you say mark to just show them the pie power of customer journey map and Then understanding on a very basic level the skills just start with post-its and then most make a post-it session and People not used to post-its would quickly Understand that if I mean, I think I have some posters there behind me No, I have it. I mean if you take it away in the wrong way, they will be curly So you have you need a course how to how to take away posts in there in a in a professional way I think people quitting pretty quick will understand the challenges with a Not using purpose tools If they have been Part of the same journey with understanding journey mapping understand the challenges with With post-its power points, etc. And I think that understanding those challenges are how do we How do we spread this they have to understand that customer experience is teamwork So we have to invite people early on and we can't be hundred people in the workshop How do we keep updating this? All those questions. How do we add all the the discussions that we had here? Into a structure that we could keep working on I think all those things If you just help people being part of this process They will also come to the conclusion that we need tools to make this in a proper way I think another thing that is That those are the questions connected to to challenges When not working with tools like customers, but it's another thing here is also that What is the value what is the business value of Keeping in the operation in the operational business always working with our customer journeys When not Putting a lot of money in development things that the customer never wanted when sales department are selling something that the product department can't deliver I Mean all what are the challenges if we don't work customer centric from journeys And if it's not spread across organization, what if branding makes their customer journey and The product owners make their customer journeys and say no We have put our budget and use consultants to make our customer journeys. You have to make your own Is doesn't we just create more silos? I think To add to what you're saying the most probably the most powerful way is if you can find Examples of the issues you just addressed that actually happened in your own organization and Show them to people. Yeah. Yeah, like Do you remember that last year we had three departments like we had branding marketing and innovation and Look at look at this. Then these are the three different journey maps or do you remember those? Workshops we did last year where we mapped the journey while all the posts are on the floor and nobody knows where The map is so I think it's really powerful if you can actually Because you don't want people to have to go through that Journey of doing post it's running into the challenges. You want to speed up The process to see to let them accept that it's valuable to use more sophisticated tools And I think it's really powerful if you start collecting Evidence of where those pain pain points are within your own organization. I totally agree and one One proof of that or another aspect I think is very good to to collect is If there has been journey mapping efforts before It's a good question to go back and see what have we managed to implement from that How much money did we put in that into that and how much have we implemented it? And then usually when just working with post-its or something or I mean similar things to That is not purpose fit. I mean Usually you would see that we did a great great workshop and we did some really good customer insights We did some really good customer journeys. We haven't managed to implement anything of it Okay, great. That's well spend that money