 Welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger and we're going to be having a conversation later on today regarding information on the field of unidentified phenomenon. I have some amazing guests here and you will want to stick around to hear Jacques Vallée as well as Paola Harris. Dare to Dream podcast has been nominated for two People's Choice podcast awards for a Webby Award and we were featured in WELP Magazine and listed as one of the top best 20 podcasts to listen to this year. Very grateful for that. This show is sponsored by Dr. Dane here and Access Consciousness. They do beautiful energy work out into the world and I highly recommend you go check out their classes. You can become a facilitator or receive a healing or get one of their products. Go to Dr. Dane here, D-A-I-N-H-E-E-R dot com or to Access Consciousness dot com. And I'm Debbie Daschinger. I teach business owners and entrepreneurs and spiritual folks the time effective steps to write a highly engaging book. I also run a company that takes your book to a guaranteed international bestselling status. And the third leg of my Visibility Hub is showing you how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts so you can get massive results and returns like filling workshops, selling books, getting new followers and clients and so forth. And I also have a free gift for those of you who are interested in more visibility for yourself, your being, your business. I have templates and videos that show you how to do it on your end. Go to Debbie Daschinger dot com slash gift. That's D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R dot com slash gift. This episode features my guest Jacques Valais who's an internet pioneer, computer scientist, venture capitalist, author, ufologist, astronomer, and award-winning UFO researcher. Jacques is here along with Paola Harris who is a photojournalist, investigative reporter and widely published author. And I welcome both Jacques and Paola to the Dare to Dream show. It's so great to have you here. Thank you. Thank you very much. Going forward to this. Yes. I just want to mention for folks who will be interested and I'll say it again at the end, their websites or their names Paola Harris dot com and Jacques Valais dot net. We'll say that again later. And you two are all friends. Is that correct? How did you initially meet? We, I became aware I had been interested in crash sites in New Mexico fairly recently and I've been accused of not paying attention to New Mexico for a long time. And that's unfair because I read everything I could read. But there wasn't much that I could take to the lab and show my colleagues in science until about four years ago when a number of us became involved in actually gathering samples from cases there that we could take to the lab. And then I became aware of the case that Paola had been researching before me. So we've really worked together only for the last four years. She had been doing research on that site for another four years before me. So she was really the expert on the site. Okay. Well, the irony is, and Jacques knows this. My career started in 1980 when I saw Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I went to Evanston, Illinois and met Dr. Jalen Heineck. And Jacques had been working with him on Project Blue Book. And I knew Jacques was represented in the film. I never dreamed I'd ever meet him. But I worked with Heineck from 1980 to 86 when he died. So my dream was always to meet him, but destiny never had us ever meet, except when this happened, this particular case, around 2017-18. And so we've become good friends. But this was a dream for me to work with somebody of that caliber. Yeah. Well, that's magic, isn't it? It's a while for you guys to get here. But here you are. And I've seen you often being interviewed together. I know you recently published a book called Trinity. And it's a subject of a 1945 UFO crash in San Antonio, New Mexico. So this is just one month after the first atomic bomb test of Trinity. Can you just start by summarizing the Trinity case for us? Well, you know, as Jacques had mentioned, I had started working on it because I heard about it when I was living in Italy. I lived in Italy from 1992 to 2007 when I moved back to Boulder, Colorado. And I was wondering why nobody had gone to Socorro. These were two little boys. They were still alive. They witnessed the whole entire thing. And I wondered why nobody covered it. But destiny had it that the pilot's son that overflew that area called me. And I got the actual I got the actual telephone numbers and the material I needed to begin the case. So I I've done many, many cases, but nothing like this. This case has everything in it. It has the witnesses and had the witnesses. We found an extra witness two years ago. It has a location and it has the metal. And the metal was mainly what Jacques was interested in, because I think he thinks and I know for a fact that science needs to be involved in this, it can't just be that a bunch of researchers are running around doing their independent work. So it was thrilling for me to hear from Jacques Vallée that he wanted to not only look at the piece that the nine year old had gone in the craft and pulled out of the wall. He was interested in that and they have that in California, but he was interested in what happened. So when you read the book, Trinity, may I remind everybody, it is a historical book. It isn't just my interviews with these people. It is what was happening in the context of this particular crash at the time in the place with the people. And that, I think, is how research should be done. And I'll let Jacques take over as far as how he perceived the two, you know, the witness testimony and what we did in four years. It took a long time. OK, so yes, Jacques, over to you. Well, if we had done this interview, you know, two years ago, we would have told you, look, this is a fascinating case because it came at a moment in history that really changed the world. The first atom bomb, the capitulation of Japan. Two days after the capitulation of Japan, an object that it wasn't a flying saucer. There is no flying saucer in Trinity in our book. It was sort of an avocado. Like the most of the witnesses were of Spanish, you know, culture. And they called it an avocado, you know, and sort of over shaped the size of two trucks put together, very high. And the the the object came out of nowhere at low altitude. It hit a communication tower, bent the tower, shot off the communication, which was a tower communicating with airplanes that were flying over the atomic range, the atomic base of White Sands. And the the pilot that Parola mentioned is the first man who testified about seeing the crashed oval shaped object and two little he called them two little Indians with their horses next to it. So when people who are skeptical about the case and, you know, they have perfect right to be skeptical about the case, say, well, just two little kids, you know, the eldest was nine, the other one was seven. But number one, they were very smart kids. They they worked on that ranch, you know, with the cattle, with the fences, with everything on the ranch. So they they knew the territory. And unlike so many cases of crashes, they were there as the object crashed. It literally crashed over their heads. Now, if we had been talking about that two years ago, you would have said, well, that's one more crash case. And, you know, it's interesting and interesting to see the research that was done. But there are two things that have happened just a few months ago, just about the time we published Trinity. The world has changed because the Pentagon. And the head of the intelligence community, who's the director of the CIA, admitted that there was a phenomena that it was real, that it had been seen by Navy pilots and by many other members of the armed forces, as well as citizens and scientists, and that there was no explanation for it. So this has opened. This has changed the entire attitude of the scientific community. And what what we feel, you know, Parla and I, we can do is to contribute. That's all you can do in science. You're not going to, you know, solve any huge problem by yourself today, but you can make a contribution. And that's what we want to do. And that's how we offer the book to our colleagues. It's a contribution to the data where we have hard data. We have witnesses who are alive and so on. The the second thing that has changed is that the people who are going to carry on the research now are not primarily the ufologists or the UFO groups that, you know, are all over the media and they they've done an obvious contribution to the to the subject over the last 20, 30 years. And we've we've been part of that of that research. But from now on, you are going to see new teams of scientists and technologists and investigators looking at discovering that that whole material in a much more professional level. And they are going to be asking the hard questions that have not been asked before. So that's that's sort of setting the setting the stage. Parla had done research with had brought in a number of UFO groups to look at the case and they missed a number of things. And this is not to accuse them of being sloppy. I mean, they did what they could with their resources. But they, for example, there are special plants at the site that have been planted exactly at the place where the object touched down. And some of those plants are poisonous. And, you know, obviously, we've been wondering why anybody would do that at that particular place where there is cattle and cattle needs access to water and so on. And they the group that did the first analysis completely misidentify those plants. We now know and we reveal in the book what the plants really are, why they are poisonous, what time of year they are poisonous. And we have some ideas for why they were put there. We think they were put there so that researchers coming in later could not dig up the ground and try to recover interesting material. Well, we've recovered interesting material and we are studying it in Silicon Valley. And the reason there is a new interest for me and my colleagues is that we now have a type of equipment that can do exquisite analysis, not only chemical analysis, which is costly, but, you know, we've done it already. But to look at the isotopes, to look at the fine structure, the fine atomic structure of any material recovered after a UFO crash or a touchdown of a UFO. So that's work we're doing. So we could combine this approach with all the material that Paola had already assembled, which included interviews with the two witnesses. We're, you know, they were silent for 65 years. And that's one thing that people have trouble understanding and they challenge us with that. They say, you know, if you saw something like that, you would tell everybody, well, no, you wouldn't tell everybody if you were a little kid who had seen the first nuclear explosion. You know, their parents' house was 25 miles from Trinity, the Trinity site, where the first atomic bomb was exploded. And Jose Adia, his main witnesses, is still very much alive. And his his mother became blind as a result of looking at the explosion. I mean, nobody knew, nobody had been told that this was going to happen. And she heard this terrible sound. She looked, she looked outside and she became blind. Jose himself still suffers, you know, they cannot hear on one ear because he was stunned by the noise of the explosion and that that blew up his, you know, his his middle ear. So these are these are serious people. They grew up in at a time when you when you saw something unusual. You were under instruction from the army, from your parents, from everybody not to talk about it. Now, I'm almost as as old as Jose Padilla now, you know, he is about 87, I believe I'm 82. I remember World War Two. I remember World War Two in Europe. The town where I grew up was bombed 17 times, had been captured by the Germans. There were two strategic bridges that had to be destroyed. I remember bombs. I remember the liberation of France. So I can relate and maybe maybe that's what's difficult for a younger ufologist coming into this, you know, why would the witnesses not talk? Why would they use, you know, certain expressions when they talk about what they saw? Well, I remember that time and I understand perfectly why, you know, they they were children of World War Two, as I was. And so just so people have some context who are listening, the evidence you're talking about is from 1945. And that's two years before the incident at Roswell in 1947. Yes, exactly. Because, you know, it isn't like 1947 was the the marker year for crashes. We just don't know. And the way I found out about this and Jacques and I began talking about because he was working with Blue Book, why it was never in the Air Force files. Well, first of all, this was before Kenneth Arnold even coined the term flying saucer. It was before Roswell. The kids never saw there was no television. They could watch anything on. And that file had to go somewhere because this thing did happen. So the idea that this is classified maybe in the Atomic Energy Commission files this is what Remy had told me. Now, Remy died by the time Jacques came on board. But Remy, who lived in the state of Washington, had told me that to thank Dixie Lee, who was the the governor of Washington at the time and also part of the Atomic Energy Commission, she let him see the his file that, you know, of this particular incident. And Jack will tell you that, you know, UFOs are classified at a really high, high level. Yeah. And so how did the military remove this avocado shaped craft that you say is about two trucks high weighing several tons from the property where it crashed? So the the pilot whose we know his name. I mean, it's not like those UFO cases where somebody knew somebody and so on. I mean, we know we have very detailed information about the the entire case. Mr. Brody was a pilot was an experienced pilot of a bomber, a four engine bomber coming in for a landing at Alamo Gordo, which is the airfield of White Sands inside White Sands. And he was told that to look at the communication tower because the the control tower at Alamo Gordo had lost contact with the communication tower. And so he circled the tower instead of coming in for a straight landing. He circled the tower so that it had been hit by something. The tower was bent and later had to be taken down destroyed. He saw some burning in the bushes. He saw the oval object that had landed. It didn't exactly crash. It didn't fall apart and crash like an airplane would have. It kept kept its integrity. So it was must have been very strong because it came at high speed, essentially destroy the tower, bounce back and did a control landing and digging up a boulevard down the hill. You know, it's a very large ranch. It's a huge ranch. And after about three quarters of a mile, it made a turn apparently underpowered and it stopped against a bump, you know, a little hill and it stopped there. The only damage was that one panel had blown up. So the kids could see the inside of the object inside the object. They saw three beings were alive. And the fascinating thing in in reading the the transcript in from Paola is how they describe these beings in a way that will become typical later in in the annals of ufology. You know, short about about four feet high. Human like but also sort of insect like they they had, you know, spindly arms, they were they were great. They did not have a respiration device. They didn't have a mask. He could see their face. He could see their eyes. He could see a small nose and a small mouth. They seem to be terrified. They seem to be running around inside. Not knowing what to do. And there was some, you know, for lack of a better word, psychic communication at that point between the children who were mesmerized, telepathic. Yes. And these beings, which confused the kids and sort of glued them to the site. And that I had the privilege of being able to work from the interview tapes that Paola had done. And as part of my work on the Internet, on the early Internet and communication through networks, I did a lot of analysis of transcripts of people communicating the way we're doing now, but also communicating for raw computers in industry. So I know how to analyze the subtle language and so on. It's those tapes are fascinating. Those kids are obviously were under a great deal of stress. They were not lying. They were reliving, vividly reliving what had happened to them as kids. Remember, the interviews were done when they were in their late 60s, early 70s and 80s. So we the pilot reported all that. So we can, as opposed to all the other cases like Roswell, where nobody was on site when it happened, they had to look for the case. And there is still controversy at Roswell as to exactly where it happened. Or maybe there were two crashes or maybe only one crash. And people are still looking for the the actual initial, you know, crash site. So here we don't have that because the kids were there as it happened over their heads. The pilot confirms everything in his report and then the the army came in. So this was reported to the army, but the army did not have a team that could be there right away. They first, they needed permission from the owner of the land. And some of the ufologists have said, have have said where by Paula and I have invented this case. OK, because to get the glory into sell books, well, you know, I don't really need to sell books. I know I'm a venture capitalist with a good background in science. Like I can write about other things and I have written about other things. And the same thing with power. She's reported on many other cases around the world. The reason we're fascinating with this case is that the we know everything the army did on the first day. There was the father made a report to to the authorities. The first people who got to the site were from the Air Force. There was no Air Force. You know, it was the army Air Force. So remember, there was no flying saucers. There was no Kenneth Arnold. There was no Roswell and there was no Air Force. OK, that none of that existed. So we're dealing with a vocabulary that is pre-steal. It is very pure of what those kids actually saw. Of course, the army couldn't come to the site right away. They so before an army detachment could be created to go there with a jeep. A number of things that needed to happen. So the pilot came back with a couple of grunts and they they camouflaged the thing. So it nobody would disturb the site. And that's something that, again, some of our readers have not paid attention to. Of course, that's what they would do. I mean, the army Air Force was the first point of contact with the authorities. So they came in, they put brushes over the craft. So when the father came back with the two kids who were driving the truck, by the way, I mean, remember those days? All the able-bodied men and women were still scattered all over the world. You know, Japan had capitulated two days before. You know, again, I remember those days when there were nothing but army trucks in the streets. You know, as I was a kid, it was the same thing, you know, in New Mexico. So the the Army Air Force takes over, camouflages the thing and transfers control to the regular army. The regular army detaches a captain who comes to knock on the door of the father of Jose Padilla, asking permission to go into his land to retrieve a weather balloon. You've heard that before. The irony, though, is that Padilla's father didn't question it at all because he's respectful. But they went into the bunkhouse and returned all the other weather balloons they had picked up from from the from the fields because Jose and his father would be on horseback and pick up the weather balloons and just keep them for the army. So it's just really amazing. And also the army had to build a special road, which is there today to retrieve that weather balloon. So the army got permission from the owner. I mean, in those days, you wouldn't say no to the American army. And they had to they couldn't use the main gate. You know, the rancher said, why don't you use my gate? I mean, that's, you know, my truck carries a cattle from that gate. And in the, you know, the officers said, no, we are going to bring one of our large trucks and I had the one time when I think Paola got mad at me was when I wanted to go back and re-interview the main witness to find out what kind of truck it was. And Paola was saying, who cares about the truck? You know, the important thing is the the egg shaped object that was there. Well, I need to know about how many wheels the truck has because that's the only thing that will tell me the approximate weight of that object. And it was an 18 wheeler. It was a truck with what they call a low boy, you know, where you could load a tank, you know, or a couple of trucks on the back of the main truck. So this was this was a big army truck. That's why they needed to cut the fence, put in their own gate and build their own road. That took a couple of days. For those two days, the kids were watching everything. The kids said and, you know, they say on the tape, you know, we had to be there because we were taking care of the cattle. They had this perfect excuse to watch all this. And they were hiding in the bushes and they were fascinated with what the army was doing. So the army came in with a couple of jeeps with a team. And then they started cleaning up the landscape and they started taking everything that they could find that had been scattered when the thing actually landed. So that was and then for an entire week, the kids are going to note everything the army detachment is doing on that site. There is no other case like that. You know, I've been interested in UFOs. Ever since I saw one as a teenager with two other witnesses and another witness who looked at it with binoculars. This was in a beautiful afternoon in France in the mid fifties. There is no question the thing was there. It was, in fact, a saucer with a dome. It was hanging in the air, beautiful blue sky afternoon in France, near Paris. And, you know, I've something has always told me this is something that science should be looking at. This is something that has I've never seen anything else since then that was of that caliber of strange as if you want. But it has always remained so I can identify with what the kids are saying. You know, I've been there. So we have 10 days of uninterrupted transcript of everything that happened there, everything the army did, how they took the thing, put it on the truck sideways, covered it with a top. Occasionally, they were going out to lunch or dinner, you know, in a local cafe that we've gotten to know very well. You know, I've been there five times and Paula has been there much more often than I have. And then they came back and took the truck to White Sands. From there, we believe it must have gone to Los Alamos. And then it disappears from all the files, including the Blue Book files. It's not in the Blue Book files. It's not in the CIA files. It's not in any of the files that have been published or looked at by scientists. Let me ask you this. So I want to just trace this a little bit. There is a correlation then. There is a crash of this avocado shaped object. There's also about 20 miles away at White Sands, the explosion of the first atom bomb. Yes, it's also missed. And is this correlation significant for me? Yes, absolutely, because it's almost like when Jack said a controlled landing, it's almost like this is an attempt by something to watch that particular part of New Mexico, that particular part of New Mexico to change history forever because when the atomic bomb did explode, as Jack said, they didn't tell anybody because it was top secret. And the fallout was 150 miles out, which covered all of that area. And we've seen the vegetation dwarfed. We've seen the vegetation not come back the way it has been and so forth. And those beings, those beings that the little boy stood there with binoculars and they had the binoculars because they had to find the brands on the cattle. And they're communicating in a very strange way. Remy told me that this is a seven-year-old, that he got a vision of people falling out of skyscrapers. And I'm going, oh, my God, that kid didn't even know what a skyscraper was. There were no skyscrapers. And the idea that they had this connection that Jose had dreams afterwards and so forth, it was an attempt, I think, at giving a message. Everybody, like Jack said, said, why did they wait 60 years? Well, one of the reasons they waited that long is because the nine-year-old went in and pulled a piece off the inside of the UFO. And that's what they're studying right now. I mean, logically, if you went and took something as a souvenir, you're not going to tell the world you did that until way, way, way. Nobody cares because the military did go to Jose's father and say, did your children, they had an inventory. Did your children take anything? Did the kids take anything? And, of course, the kids said no because they were dead set on having the souvenir. And when you say these beings, these three beings, do you have any sense of these gray, four-foot, human-like, but insect-like, et cetera, what planet they might have been from and what their reason was for being here? You can't do that, though, with this kind of case, because that would be that would be that would totally, for my research, just count me. How could I have because I believe I've done so much work with contactees. I believe, first of all, whatever planets are out there, they don't call them the same thing as we do. So they would if they say planet, you know, water or something like that, we don't know what they're talking about. We're the ones that name everything. So we can't do that part. We cannot guess. There's no guessing. The only guessing that I've personally done is the timeline. The timeline. Why did it happen then? Why did it happen there? That I can guess. But as far as the intention of they could have been artificial intelligence, you don't know, Jack, you're going to add something. Yes, the they are, you know, my my approach to this is obviously I try to be a good investigator. But when it comes to analysis of metals, I'm not a meteorologist. And when it comes to, you know, biology, I'm not a biologist. So what I try to do is find people who have sort of matching education, training, background, you know, qualifications to bring them into the team. And my contribution is to look for patterns. I mean, I'm basically, you know, an information scientist. Most of my scientific work has been for NASA, for ARPA, for a number of agencies and also for industry, developing communication software and so on. So I I tried to to look for patterns in things there. So I looked for other cases that were similar. There is no case like this case, that Trinity, but there are at least two cases that I've researched in depth for years where other people have researched it, when there is a lot of information where the objects are egg shaped and the occupants to get to your question, the occupants are the same. There are about one one point two meters high, four feet. They breathe our air. That means that if you look for a planet, I mean, it will have to be a planet that has air like us, you know, because with the same composition, which is very hard to believe. OK, now they could be artificial beings that were engineered to live on earth. OK, that's by another race, by another type of being. That's obviously possible. You know, we're already talking about doing biological manipulation for long term astronauts. If you live on Mars for a long time, you know, you might want to have some of your body characteristics modified so that you can sustain the environment longer and better and more securely. So that's within today's science. That kind of idea that we can tell you which planet they would be coming from. So the two cases are Socorro. Socorro is just about 10 kilometres, you know, about maybe seven or eight miles, actually, north of this crash of, you know, the San Antonio crash. Socorro, I remember very well, because, and I've gone there recently with Powerlap and with our witness. In Socorro, the cop named Lonnie Zamora so heard a sound that was like something, you know, like an explosion. He drove quickly to the side, which is really an open, open area, an unbuilt, you know, unconstructed area just south of Socorro. He, when they're on the dirt road, he saw an egg shaped object and two small beings. The small beings, the description by him, 1964, was exactly the same as the description given by the two kids. Short beings, no mask, no breathing equipment, one piece uniforms seem to be knowing exactly what they were doing. They went back into the object, the object took off and then it flew off. In our book, there are revelations about the Socorro case that have never been published anywhere in other UFO books or reviews, because we had the transcript, I had transcripts of the investigation itself. I was working at the time with Dr. Heineck in Chicago. You know, I was finishing my doctorate in artificial intelligence in Chicago at Northwestern at the time, Northwestern University. And I worked with Dr. Heineck on every step of the research with other people from the astronomy department. And we reconstructed the case and the shape of the object and so on. The conditions are exactly the same. The Socorro case has an extensive series of files in Project Blue Book. It was one of the major cases in Project Blue Book. It's one of the few cases that we have in Socorro. It's one of the few unidentified cases that were reviewed later by the Colorado Project with Professor Comden and remained unidentified. Could not find an explanation for it. So this is not just a bunch of witnesses running around the countryside and a bunch of ufologists with preconceived ideas. I mean, this is the Socorro case was studied extensively first by the local police because they didn't believe their colleague, Lonnie Zamora. They thought he had invented it. So they did an extreme job of looking at the site. The FBI was there because the FBI was in Socorro for the federal case. They had no jurisdiction for looking, you know, at the UFO crash, but they were interested. So they brought in, you know, the federal treatment to the case, helping the Socorro police. And then the people from the base, you know, from White Sands came in because White Sands was still in operation, not blowing up H bombs or A bombs, because all that had been transferred to Nevada. You know, by then they realized that the bomb had been much more powerful than they thought and they understood the damage they had done to the population around, you know, all the way to Socorro. I mean, around that area of New Mexico. So they never exploded another bomb in New Mexico. They moved all the facilities to Nevada where they own, you know, enormous amounts of land. So there were all those stages of federal and local police investigators who were on site, plus Project Blue Book, because the Project Blue Book, you know, sent a team there and then sent Dr. Heineck. So we have all of that. So that and it's almost a carbon copy from the physical characteristics and the biology characteristics. It's almost a carbon copy of what Jose and Remy Baca have told Paola. And the third case is a case in France, I also know very well, at Valensol in August 1965, an object which was overall landed in a field. The farmer happened to be one of the prominent citizens of Valensol. It's in the Alps, you know, it's not in the high Alps, but it's in the stages just before altitude, you know, before you get to the Alps themselves. And so it's a high altitude plateau and he had a number of properties there. He sees this object, thinks it's a helicopter that has landed in his field. So he gets mad and he walks to tell them to get out. This is at six o'clock in the morning because the sun is too hot. So he wants to tend the crops at that point. And he walks towards the object. There are two small creatures about a meter or 1.2 meters, four feet. They take a little device, they point it at him and he's paralyzed. He's going to remain paralyzed even after the object takes off. He watches, of course, cannot go close to them. They seem to have no problem with the situation. They are not scared, they are not. They, he describes them in French in the same way as the way, you know, Jose described the creatures in San Antonio to Paola on those tapes. OK, so we have these three cases. The case in Socorro was reinvestigated after the police investigated it by four other agencies of the French government. And we have the files, OK, the customs thought that it might be. It might be people illegally carrying either gold or other things to Switzerland because there is a traffic between, you know, you're close to the Swiss border. So they were thinking of this kind of this kind of breach. And they quickly, you know, eliminated that hypothesis. The French Air Force was there. The French police, the French gendarmerie and the French counter spy agency. So we know that none of those reached a conclusion about what the case was, other than the witness was telling the truth. I reinvestigated the case twice with a French official who had property there, knew the local people and could introduce me to the local culture, which is the media in France, you know, so you drink wine and you talk and everybody is friendly, but they were other witnesses and they had never testified and they told us what they had seen in addition to what the main witness had seen. So we have three cases, two of them are official state investigation cases with the same type of object and the same type of being. So don't tell me that Jose and Remy were dreaming. Don't tell me that they were lying as, you know, the ufologists and people to name them people from your phone are telling us now that this was just, you know, a tall tale from a bunch of kids. Well, not only were they were there other witnesses like the pilot, but Paula found another witness. Yeah, I want to talk about that. I want to I'm intrigued at the beginning, how you mentioned there was an extra unexpected witness. Can you share about that? Well, Jacques and we're sitting we're sitting on the porch near Jose's house and we listen to what he says. It's important to listen. And he mentioned his his his niece Sabrina that was living with his father. And I said, she she was around then. And he said, yes. And so you tell me she lived in California. He in Los Angeles within one month. Jacques and I flew to Los Angeles to question her. And she said when she was a little this is a great part because I could see this is a movie. She said when she was a little girl, she said there was a bag of things that would light up, you know, and Jose had said that there was fibers that came from that panel that were all over the the the brush all over the vegetation and that he had taken a bag full of it. It was all lit up and that they trimmed the Christmas trees with that. So can you just in your mind see and and Sabrina said, yeah, we even gave it to the neighbors because they saw we put some of it on the window. Now, they didn't have electricity and this stuff was always lit up and it was lit up and purple and violet and pink. And and and she validated what Jose said that, you know, Jose thought it was great stuff, so he put it in a bag. And and so Sabrina, she she validated that she opened the drawer and she would play with this stuff because it was all lit up. Put it on the walls, but that it was very, very. It burned and stung her hand when she had it. So Jacques and I brought in some scientists to talk to to talk to Sabrina because we she she's validating Jose's story. They hadn't spoken in a long time. And then she says, well, we didn't have anything to play with. So there were these long strips of aluminum foil that when we scrunch them, they would go back to their own their their own, you know, shape. And these are things that were reported in the Roswell crash, the memory metal. And she said, we play with those two because I said, how much of that was there? You know, it's like, how many of that did you see? So obviously, Jose's father went back to the crash site and picked up things that Jose didn't even know about. So he couldn't even collaborate that. But they did collaborate that there was there were materials in 1945. And so Sabrina said that she also saw the site and it was scorched. That whole site was scorched. Of course, the vegetation has never gone back to the way it was. And when you have nuclear blast that's only 13 miles away, you're you're going to you're going to get everything in its path. And and Jack was brilliant in writing this book because he went back to look at the the, you know, the atomic bomb, you know, test. It was not a test. It was an actual atomic bomb. There was no test and they learned something from that explosion. So Sabrina came to my Laughlin conference. I ran a conference in Laughlin, Nevada. She is in Los Angeles. She was she was able to without, you know, without Jose being around, she was able to corroborate so much of his story. When we went to question Sabrina, Jose was not around. I mean, we had to go and this is what research is. You know, Jacques and I flew to Los Angeles to talk to her. I mean, you have to go there in person. You can't use a phone. You can't use, you know, you have to look at these people when they're talking to see if they're telling the truth. You have to look at their facial expressions. Sabrina goes on and on and on because, as Jacques said before, they relive it. It's not that they're making it up. They go back to their childhood. They're reliving it all. And it's it's fascinating to watch. So you've had now chemical and physical analysis, I'm assuming, of some of this UFO debris or maybe some of the devices that were observed. What are the what are the scientific questions that get raised over this? So from this site, we're still working at the site. We we have a lot of descriptions of what the material did. I was fascinated when Parola mentions these fibers that laid up because that, you know, Parola has also worked extensively with Colonel Corso, you know, who was the man who was in charge of for the Army of keeping and documenting all the material that had been collected from the early UFO crashes and taking it to to scientists. And I've spent two days with Colonel Corso and with a team of scientists listening to and validating his story and trying to put it in today's scientific terms, you know, which is your your question to me. The one thing I could never understand was he was telling us, you know, we had these fibers, optical fibers. Well, optical fibers are not new. I mean, it was known for a long time, you know, even in the 19th century, that if you take a fiber of glass and you put a candle at one end, the light of the candle is going to come out at the at the tip of that little fiber of glass. You know, people were presenting ladies with bouquet of glass flowers and you would put a little candle at the base of the vase and those flowers would lit up. OK, this was a very fashionable thing to do when you want to want it to charm a lady in the 19th century. Well, this was, you know, before fiber optics. So I would tell Colonel Corso, but this is not what fiber optics do. What Paul had just described to you, you know, is what Colonel Corso had on his desk and it's not an optical fiber. We don't know what it is. It's a material that we certainly would love to know how it works. But it's not a material that we have today in the lab. It does something else. It may be related to proportion. It may be related to communication. It may be related to monitoring some sort of device, which I don't know. This is one of about 30 cases for which I have materials that I've turned over to a team and we're now going through systematically through those and analyzing the materials. We just published our first scientific paper on it in a review of astronautics. And by the way, this is the first time that a paper, a complete scientific paper has been accepted by a refereed review, a top refereed review in science. OK, Dr. Heineck tried to do that for a long time. I tried to do that. Dr. McDonald tried to do that. Dr. Sturrock at Stanford tried to do that was always refused. And but this this article is now, you know, fully published. And it's it's a fairly long article. It goes into the chemistry and also goes into the isotopes. The isotopes are important because you can fake the chemistry if you have a good chemical lab, but you cannot fake what happens to the special isotopes of the atoms inside the chemistry. OK, and that's that's a level where we've demonstrated we could go with a new new methodology. So that's what the paper is about. So now that we've opened that door, we think a number of our colleagues who are now, you know, now that the subject is open, a number of our colleagues can go through that door and get their papers published on other cases. Congratulations. That's beautiful. That's really that's a real breakthrough. It took it also took 70 years to get to that point. Quick question, Paula, I know that you and Jacques are presenting at the L.A. Conscious Life Expo. What are you guys going to be speaking about? Well, this case, of course, because when people hear details of this case and you've heard the details of this case, they need to know that, you know, first of all, that people can cooperate and work together. So, you know, Jacques and I have worked together for the last four years. And I think that the UFO community tends not to work together very often. So we did, you know, collaborate on this and the idea that, you know, there's so much more out there if people would do field research. This is field research. So we're going to be speaking about Trinity. We're going to be speaking about the witnesses. We're going to be speaking about the case. And most of all, the importance of when it happened, the whole world changed. It changed our whole paradigm in 1945. And in 1945, and if you look at this being a real case, Ufology did not begin in 1947. We have this that has a very detailed, very detailed beginning and a very significant beginning because of the historical value of when it happened. So, yeah, Jacques and I will will be doing the Sunday keynote there at the Conscious Life Expo. And I don't know if they're going to leave any time for questions and answers, but I invite everybody to be there and and to hear about this. Yeah, beautiful. And for folks who are interested, go to Los Angeles ConsciousLifeExpo.com. And they're also doing live streaming. If you're somewhere else in the world, you can still attend. I'm curious. I just have two quick questions here at the end. You had mentioned that the metal is being explored right now by science in Silicon Valley. Do you have any sense when they may have some kind of observations about that? Well, we we already do. And there has been some prior work that has been done on the chemistry. The metal is is known completely. It's really an alloy. The the object itself, we think is of human origin. Here is a model of it. You know, the the actual one is in a bank somewhere, you know, under lock and key. But this is so it it's a kind of actuator, you know, that is used in a number of applications. We know people have said, oh, you know, it's it's used in a windmill. So we went to the windmill people and they said, no, we have things like that, but not this particular type. We went to the water, you know, water, well, the well device people, they said the same thing. We don't really know where it came from. It's in the metric system. So the dimensions are metric. The army did not use a metric system at the time. My interpretation is very simple, but I have colleagues who don't agree with me, which often happens in research, and that's OK. I think that this was something that was around a farm somewhere and the the army needed to improvise maybe a device to wrap up, you know, an electric cable. I mean, remember, they were miles and miles out of nowhere in New Mexico is very big. It's a very big plateau there and they were far away from their base and far away from any kind of technical thing. So they would have used whatever that's what the army does. The jeeps could produce the current. I used to drive a Jeep. You know, a Jeep can generate the electrical current to power just the light or to power, you know, a drill or anything else. They needed so I think that's why they used this. They must have found it in a farm somewhere. My colleagues don't agree with that because there we are finding microstructures inside this that we don't understand. It doesn't mean, by the way, the actual one is about twice as big. This is a model that Paola had ordered had done. So that's that's where we are with a with that device. And of course, we're looking at the features of the other the other things that Sabrina is describing so well. OK, and so I'm going to give out your websites. Jacques Valle dot net and Paola Harris dot com for more information and folks who would like to see the object, the mock of the object that Jacques is currently talking about that was from the craft. You can go to YouTube dot com slash Debbie Dashinger and watch this if you're currently listening to the radio show or the podcast. And what about the book, Paola? Where can people find and purchase the book Trinity? Trinity is in four languages in Italian, Spanish, French and in English on Amazon. There it is. And let's see. Jacques is showing the cover, but Jacques, you can show Mama Grande. We put a historical cover on this book because Mama Grande is again. I show it, but you have to talk in order to the subtitle is the best kept secret. Because, again, as Paola said, it's not in the Air Force Files. It's not in Blue Book. It's kept in the Atomic Energy Commission's classified files. They on on one side, you have the the famous horse that the kid was was riding at the time and on the right Mama Grande, the Apache leader of that part of New Mexico. Remember, again, New Mexico was at the time, the population was a mix of of workers coming and going from Mexico, farm workers, of Americans of Hispanic origin who had settled in New Mexico, owned the ranches and the farms. Native Americans, Indian population, American Indian population and and recent immigrants and people who came back from the war and decided that New Mexico was a perfect place to stay. So you had a mix of population there in 1945. And that to me, that was very interesting because all of them brought their own, you know, their own culture, their own language, their own way of of looking at a mystery like this. Thank you both so much for coming on the show today. And thank you for the work you do. And I look forward to more as this unfolds. I will be following. Well, I said the beginning. Thank you. Exciting. I end today's show with this quote from Edgar Mitchell. I happen to be privileged enough to be in on the fact that we have been visited on this planet and the UFO phenomena is real. Join me next week on this number one transformation conversation dare to dream when I will be featuring Susan Miller, the world's renowned astrologer. And she's going to be laying out during the podcast each astrological sign as well as what to be aware of and what to expect in the new year ahead. Thank you so much for daring to dream and for joining us. And remember to be very observant about what may be landing by you at any time.