 Good morning once again welcome to the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is moving across states of course starting with Adamawa where the people of Mubi and Chamba communities in Adamawa have of course requested for more states to be created. Long ago also there was conversations in Kaduna state of southern and northern Kaduna asking for the splitting of the states into two. They have of course the committee handling the north east zona public hearing for the review of the 1999 constitution and they have told them that there needs to be Ammana and Gongola states. It is like I said similar to the request by some people in Kaduna state for the splitting of the state into northern and southern Kaduna. We of course have always known as about the request one extra states in the southeast to make up for the number of states and number of representatives that the southeast and states have in the national assembly. The big question is of course is does Nigeria need new states and if yes how many more. We joined this morning by Mark Adebayo to discuss this. Good morning Mr Adebayo. Okay we can't hear you. Good morning. Can you hear us? Okay it seems your device is muted. We may have to of course ask if you can unmute your device so we can hear you clearly this morning. Fantastic. Okay we can hear you now. Yes we can. Good morning once again. All right. So it's a conversation that has come up in the past. In the southeast earlier there are people who had mentioned that the southeast needed to create more states to meet up with the lack of numbers in the national assembly and representatives and of course I had stated that it is unfair that certain regions in the country have as much as seven states in those regions but the southeast has only five and now of course in Adamawa there's a talk of Gongola states southern and northern Kaduna have also been mentioned. So do you agree that Nigeria needs more states? Well basically let us go back to the fundamentals. Why the agitation for more states? There must be a reason for that. Now there might be a set of reasons for that. You will see it is a sense of injustice, the sense of imbalance, the sense of marginalization in the country. These are the factors that are responsible for the agitation for more states. We have to face the reality. The current, even some of the states we have now, some of them are not viable. Even most of them, they are not viable. Well if you would say, I don't know if you can still hear us, we seem to have, can you hear us some Sunday morning? All right, go ahead. Go ahead. More states, people are marginalized, people have no sense of being Kanawa and I think that is the major risk, can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. So I think that those are the factors that are responsible for this climate for more states, agitation for more states. Even the people who have a sense of belonging, if they have a source of justice, nobody will be clamoring for more states. And I think at this point that is something that the federal government and all that states should go to Auguste and learn because you know, you discover that you are not hearing that kind of thing in the states anymore. Seven years ago, eight years ago, you will see a lot of communal clashes, intercommunal clashes, violence and so on. I don't know, there must be something that the current government is doing, that's it, that is making those agitations to go down, that is making insecurity in that state to go down. The question says the primary responsibility of every government shall be the welfare and security of the populace. And those two elements, whether you agree with him or not, it has been, it is successfully managed in Auguste. And I think the federal government should go to Auguste and have at least one or two things about how to manage differences, about how to manage diversity, about how to bring everybody on board. That's the goal there in Auguste that the federal government needs to go and learn about. And I really do not know how the crisis in Auguste was managed and reduced to a state of belonging. Maybe it's a little long, you understand me? They were not agitated for local government states and stuff like that. I agree, I agree. On the issue of the statutes, I really do not know what informed the father that statutes may have only five states. It is irreversible. There is no excuse for that. I really do not understand why the drafters of our constitution decided to allow statutes to have only five states. It is irreversible. It is unreasonable. I mean, it is a direct, it is a direct astute of marginalization. And you are telling them they are second class or top class in the country. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. It's possible. Set them aside for only five states. They have the right to exist for most states. But I do see... We'll get to the southeast and the parts where you've mentioned, of course, people feeling marginalized and unfairly treated. But one thing you mentioned earlier was the fact that some states don't seem viable. A couple of states are not working. So would it make sense seeing that there are certain states that don't seem to be working because of the system that we run? And after seeing that, you go ahead and create even more of these states. That is why I'm saying that you are trying to solve a difficult situation, but we are going to create more crisis by having more states. But also, you know, it gives a sense of balance and belonging when people... I have my own state. We have our own state. You understand? If you are comfortable with the state, if you are comfortable with the in the Nigerian state itself, nobody will be agitated for cessation, nobody will be agitated for statusing, nobody will be agitated for social. It's the acute sense of injustice and lack of belonging, lack of the sense of belonging in the country that is leading to all these agitations. That is why the next president must be somebody who can demonstrably unite the country. Our diversity should not be our adversity. It should be our advantage. But we don't have the managers, the good managers of our diversity in the country now. And that is why I focussed all the best model for the management of diversity in this country today. That model is needed at the presidency. It's needed at the presidency. We should not think that we can solve every problem by using sledgehammer to kill a fly. There must be an intelligent political management of society that is what can give all the kind of peace, progress and unity and unison to speak in unison that we need in this country. You understand me? No. Other states, people's states, we are, people are clamoring for states. Even those states have demonstrated justice to all, fairness to all. Under their states, nobody will be clamoring for states. Under their states, you understand me? So, and this is something that people are clamoring for all manner of things that is because of the lack of sense of justice for everybody. There's no balance. That's why I keep mentioning the Kovibude. Okay. So, Mr. Adebayo, can you hear me? I'm hearing you. How about the perspective, you know, that breaking out more states would further divide the country? Yeah. You see, I keep saying that you want to solve a problem. We are going to create more complications. You understand? If we call it as a state structure, it is so difficult even, you know, it is so difficult for people to even manage their states. We cannot have states who depend 90% on the federal government to survive. No. That is, that is, that is a fundamental index of unviability. But people are, I keep saying, let us go to the factor, to the reason, why are they clamoring for you? It may not be viable. It may not even run successfully. But they want their own states. We can feel a sense of belonging, we can feel carried along. But if you have a government, a system that operates on the basis of fairness, on the basis of equity, nobody will want to agitate for more states or agitate for even their own country. You know, seven years ago, seven years ago, Congress said it is a place that I know considerably. There were inter-communal clashes, there were agitations for local government, there were agitation when you move or something like that. You know, all people, you know, people are just fighting over little thing and the rest of that. So that then this government came in and it solved those problems. I think we should go and borrow a model from that state to see how the government managed to manage all this, that crisis and confusion and bring everybody on board. And that is why, you see, whether you bring on board, traditional rulers, youth, women, everybody in the state to the table. You know, where you don't say, I want to hold a security measure, I want to hold a state order meeting, only the traditional rulers will come, only select politicians will come. But you bring everybody on board. That will be pleased as we are witnessing today in Congestate. There will be harmony as you have witnessed today in the Congestate. You know, so that is why I keep saying that the presidency needs the Cognizbo there and we need to look so that we can download the agitation, the fear of the people, the trepidation that we are going to be annihilated if we don't have our own country, if we don't have our own state. The states for now are struggling. They are no state government now. They must publicly to say that if the government had to create more money to be able to settle them for a or match, you cannot be doing that. We are inflicting inflation. So most state is not a solution really, sincerely, practically speaking. Most state is not a solution. It is not because it's going to create more confusion and crisis for us. We will not be able to find the financial capacity to be able to manage it. Okay, so then how does the Cognizbo make sure they consider the agitation for the social without restructuring the country, the eruption, and we have to want to go from that. Not only do states in the social system, you have to restructure the system and you are allowed states to substantially control their own resources, control their own faith, control their own destiny, control their own security, all that we say. You know, there will be, you know, people will find a way to make their state work. In the restructuring, most states may work, but as the current structure, most states will not work. If we kill, if we create more chaos and crisis, I'm going to be able to get the state we neglect getting the state. We have to pay the reality. So Mr Adebayo, you're basically saying that restructuring is the solution. You mean it's a bit like the win-win answer to all the agitations we're seeing, but we've been talking about restructuring for a long time coming. How long more do you think we'll need to talk about this before restructuring and the evolution of power becomes a reality? Do we need to wait for another government, another, you know, eight years? It is the responsibility of the citizens to ask. It is the responsibility of the government to give. If we are not getting restructuring now, it is because the federal government is not listening to the demands of the citizenry. We have been asking for restructuring. If the government are listening to us, when we have been coming for restructuring for 15 years, nobody will come out today and be asking for a good work. Nobody will come out today and be asking for a good work. Nobody will be coming out today to ask for a new master in all those things. But because there was no, the power that be, the fields to listen to the climate restructuring, let's go back to the 1960s constitution and improve on that because the 1960s constitution cannot go far enough to satisfy the yannies and escalations of the people of Nigeria today. Nobody loses anything. Why, why, why are some people so much afraid of social things? What the many of, this elementary meaning of social is that you allow federal units to have substantial control of their socio-political and economic destinies. Why should everybody be afraid of that? You know, you control your economy, you control your resources, you donate like maybe 5 or 10 percent of the center so that you can run, but you allow the state of the families of society how they run their security, how they run their education, how they run their health. The concurrent list is not robust enough. The exclusive list has totally taken out the advantages of the concurrent list. Now, we cannot have a country that's operating like that. You cannot operate if it is bought to social. We are by the state, we have to come to Abu Dhabi every month, cap it hard to collect money. No, a location of resources cannot be concentrated in one unit at the center of the country as large, as big, as diverse as Nigeria. Before that being, the ruling clique must begin to think sincerely and very seriously about the social in this country to doubt this tension, to doubt this tension. Now, you see at the state level, let me give you an instance, at the state level, the judiciary is clamoring for autonomy, the local government is clamoring for autonomy at those levels, and then those states are also clamoring for the social at the future government level. What we should do is that even the states, the governors, who are also clamoring for the social issue, start and begin to destroy their state. Let me give you an instance, in a couple of states, you know, like Kogi, and I think reverse too, and I think there's another state I'm trying to remember, we are in the states. All right, Mark at the bar, you can hear us. I'm absolutely on the protection of the Kogi state because I'm from Kogi state, I'm not from Kogi, so I'm here to you. So, we have to borrow a model there, we are the governor and president of the social in the state, give the judiciary autonomy, local government autonomy, and let us try that in our state, and then put pressure on the federal government to the social in the state. It does not take Mr. President anything, anything to listen to the clamor for the social, if you agree to the social, the clamor for cessation, we go down. In fact, we go down, we listen up. All right, hold on Mark at the bar, you. A child is crying for biscuits, you are giving him biscuits, you understand? If we throw away the biscuits, if we throw it away and smash it as cacayas. All right, Mr. at the bar, hold on, hold on. Give me the biscuit that this guy is asking for. Well, before we start sharing the biscuits, let's go back a little bit. A lot of times we speak about injustice and unfairness and not being able to pull people together and some of all of that on the federal level, but it's pretty obvious that there's a lot of all those things still happening on the state level that has created these call for new states. In Kaduna, for example, there seems to have been this long issues between you know, northern and southern Kaduna and southern Kaduna people have always felt marginalized or felt unfairly treated. So how do you respond to the fact that it's not just on the federal level, but even on the state level, we seem to have that same culture of injustice and unfairness? Well, the Kaduna state is a particular exemplary tragic situation. You know, the kind of thing, the kind of experience that these other Kaduna people have been going through for decades, not just on this government, for decades is unimaginable. It is unacceptable. There have been there have been victims of organized genocide. It is unfortunate. It is tragic. And I do not know, I don't know, and unfortunately the current governor, you know, also who's fouled in the fire, his body language, his focal language are not consistent with a leader that wants peace. It's not something, if I, if I should meet governor every fight today, I would just, I would just advise him to take a show, to take a show, just go to Kogi State, not far from you, go and learn how Dono Yaiabino was able to manage to doubt the crisis in the state. He should just, he should just go there. You understand? You know, I, I cannot understand. You know, there was a time when certain Kaduna, Kaduna people were, were more or less tagged as terrorists by the, by the governor of the state. People that you are supposed to call to a round table and discuss with, you are, you are tagging them, you are tagging the so-called Kaduna people, you are tagging them, you are tagging them as, as, as terrorists. That was the same mistake the federal government made, when the third apple, apple was just protesting. It was, it was not armed by then. But it had been terrorist. And what did they, they started behaving like terrorists. You understand? And can you blame them? You know, and people were saying, this is the part of the injustice we are talking about. But it turned out that the apple was not carrying arms. You tagged them terrorists. But you refused to tag killer and the terrorists. It is, it is part of the thing is that people are saying, and it's unfortunate as, you see, that is why I plead. That is why I plead. The Nigerian populace, the Nigerian electorate. But the timing, now, that is the time that they need a young, educated, vibrant, energetic president. Call 2023. Last, nobody should go. Don't vote for money, don't vote for this. Don't vote, don't vote for ethnicity, don't vote for Egypt. Let us go for, let us go for and experience young, vibrant, educated, energetic young person who will be able to manage the crisis of this country. Who will have the power, the strength, the energy, the intellect, the intelligence to be able to carry the weight of this country. Centrigenarians and autogenarians cannot carry the weight of this country. It cannot. So we have seen the experience now. And anybody, anybody, you know, you know, say to generation, autogenarians who are clamoring to become president is doing it to me. And I guess you massively ignore them in any way, in whatever political party. Let us work together. Any of the young people, the vibrant young people have come about to say that I want to be president. Let us, let us, let us, let us back them up. Let us back them up. You understand? You know, some of them are coming home. We have Mungaloo who says we want to try again. And we have, we have, this is 45 years old for some people. That, those are the people who can carry the load of those countries now. It is, look, we cannot go back to, to what we call it, it is the digital age, you know. Analog, we cannot use analog age to solve the problem of digital, and that is one of the problems we're having with the current administration. I, I, I, I, I, I, I stand on my, I stand on my point on that. We age, in other countries, like maybe U.S., you have a president that's above 75, it is working for them, because they have a political system that supports, you know, excellence in everything, excellence. If you are able to give delivery, they report for you, it's not only in Nigeria we have a president. But in other states, in other countries, they have people who are older than that, but who has to also perform, but we, it seems, it is a major factor here. We need people who are between 35 and 45, 46, people who are older than 50 to become president come 2023, and they have to be on the lookout as signals of their experience, those who have had experience in managing, maybe as governors, maybe as, whatever, maybe as senators, who have been involved in the management of, of, of the country at one level or the other, but who are still less than 50, who are still less than 60, everybody above 60 has a business contested by election 2023, at every level, especially at the presidential level, no, no, no, no, no. And some of us are going to mobilize Nigeria's in favor of the younger generation. It is your generation now that take over this country, and use your intelligence, and use your capacity, and use your education. Well, there's obviously... We don't want people who are complicating matters. Yeah, there's obviously a lot of... We don't want people who are complicating matters. We cannot, we cannot continue with that 2023. Nigerians should take note. And youth, and youth and women, are 73% of the electorate. Like them, and he was a young president. All right, hold on please. There's obviously, you know, a couple of factors that need to come into play for that to be possible. You know, also with fixing our electoral system, and some of all those aspects, the electoral bill still needs to be signed before we, you know, can find those possibilities. INEC, of course, has continued to struggle with getting eligible voters registered, and getting their voters cards to them for the longest time. But I want to go back to your thoughts on restructuring. There is people who would say that the reason why, or the reason we've struggled, we've been able to achieve, you know, an actual conversation on restructuring, and steps, genuine steps towards restructuring is because certain regions don't feel like they will be able to survive by themselves, if Nigeria restructures. Can you hear me? I'm hearing you now. Okay, so... Basically, you see, look, I had part of your question, but I don't think there's a constitutional, lacuna or constitutional, you know, inhibition on the part of the young people to contest, you understand me? And that is why, you know, we have the not too young to run, act. We have substantially reduced the age of people who can contest. People who have chosen this now can contest, and I think that contested also can contest for the presidency. So, you don't need to do anything in the area of age, the electoral act again, to allow young people to run for the presidency. No, you know, one thing that, aside from education, you need, I keep saying, you need experience in political management, whether at local government level, whether at national, at state level, whether at national level, you know, and some other public experience in the management of people and sources. That is it. So, and that is why, I've mentioned to people to you, I've mentioned, I've mentioned the Mughaloo to you. These are still the people in the younger generation of political, you know, of the political that gets you of Nigeria. And we have to be able, we have to be able, I know that Mughaloo has proceeded as a person, you know, as a person. But I also know that in the management of people, of crisis, you know, as a citizen in the state, to a large extent, I keep referring to the Mughaloo there because of what you have been able to demonstrate at that level. So, there will not be shortage of young people to vote for. The blackmail of what can we do, this and that. And the youth, some of them, we say, go around, we say they don't have the money, they don't have the resources, you understand. But let them come to that, and support one of their own, and support one of their own. It's not because there's no space for young people to contest, there's definitely, but the cost of running elections in Nigeria is a challenge. The cost of running for office in Nigeria is a challenge. There's also, like I mentioned, the factors concerning INEC as a body that has made it difficult for these young people that you've mentioned, and the women, and the vast number of Nigeria's population to really get themselves in a place to get registered, get their voters card and vote. So, those are some of the things that I was talking about that need to be fixed. And of course, the electoral bill that still has not been signed. I was asking a question with regards restructuring and the perspective that some people have that the reason we might not be able to do that or why it has not been achieved yet is because there are certain regions that feel they may not survive a restructured Nigeria. Do you agree with those people? And do you think that regardless of what they think, we should go ahead and restructure and they would fall in line eventually? Everything boils down to leadership. And the biggest advantage of this country has been leadership failure. If we had the right leadership, nobody would be afraid of anything. Nobody would be suspicious of any step. Imagine, of a women number of Nigerians especially in the south are clamoring for restructuring. Yes, so people are also afraid, not even the government now, not even the political cliques now, not even the political class now. So people are afraid of restructuring Nigeria. Let me give you an example. During the 2014 National Congress of the United States, most of the southern delegates were clamoring for restructuring. The minority elements in the north objected to it, they objected to it perhumanely. They said no, if the restructuring Nigeria would be left at the mercy of the majority in the north, no, they did not want to support it. They had to be plagiarized, to be convinced that the restructuring Nigeria will work for everybody. So the new fears are there. Even for restructuring Nigeria, I agree with that. But you know, leadership, if you get our leadership right, if you get the right leader, the right president at the center, who can bring everybody together? Who can unite the people? Who can listen? Who can listen to people? Who can listen to people? You know, we will not be having all these agitations, sincerely speaking, we will not be having all these fears. Now you are talking about the regional system, these are the INX incapacity in terms of management of our elections. I agree with you. But that should not discourage anybody from making effort to protest. And that is why they jumped. Okay, we might have lost him there, but he was wrapping up. Ms Adebayo, all right. We apologize for the network glitch there. Well, thank you very much. Your thoughts are well noted regarding this particular issue. And above the national confab, yes, they recommended 19 states to be created, to add to the states in Nigeria, but we still haven't gotten to the end of that discussion regarding all the other recommendations of the national confab. But yes, this is still an ongoing conversation. Many more states or many more groups might still make their own claim or their own case for state creation. But we'll see how it goes though. We'll take a break here to bring updates on the topic we covered the last time about a man who was wrongfully arrested when he came into Imustid for his father's, his father-in-law's burial. And there's an update on that story regarding his release after the break.