 So anyway, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group, who has been so gracious in letting me take some time off. We want to make sure we thank all of our presenting sponsors who allow us to be here every day. Jared said something really interesting several weeks ago, and I've been really thinking about it. You know, these sponsors put no parameters on what we talk about. We have no editorial interference or guidance. Sometimes they'll say, hey, I met this interesting person, you ought to talk to them or whatever, but that is it. And that's really, that's incredibly remarkable in any type of broadcasting. So again, we want to thank American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, be generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader, and the Nonprofit Nerd. Again, catch us on Roku, YouTube, Vimeo, Amazon Fire TV. I guess I missed it, but apparently one of, I know Kevin, our executive producer, thought one of the best interviews you ever had was this week on Tuesday, the storytelling guest. And so this is where you can get back to our archives. And you can also queue us up on podcasts wherever you like to download your content. Okay, Nonprofit Nerd, I love this image of you because thanks. I've never been here, but this is your office, right? It is. It's my home office, my home studio. I live in a mid-century modern home, which I just adore. And if you adore it so much, why leave? So I get to serve the community across the globe from my beautiful home that I just adore. And yeah, it's so nice. And a lot happens here, a lot. Yeah, a lot happens here. It's super cool. Well, you know, I always enjoy the time that I get just with you or I can just talk with you and find out what's cooking. One of the marvelous things is that we don't always agree. We don't always have to agree, but we get really different perspectives from both of our diverse careers in the sector. And so this is going to be a really cool conversation. Again, we're talking today about one of the most frightening topics, and that is succession planning. I feel like, Kevin, our executive producer is definitely going to take that screenshot as like our thumbnail, you know? So yeah, so every now and then, as our viewers and listeners know, we turn the tables on each other. So I decided to put myself up for the opportunity to talk about succession planning, because this is one thing I'm seeing in our community as a challenge. And it's an obstacle that undoubtedly we will all face, right? So I figured, okay, it's time to talk about it. One of the service lines that I provide is interim executive work. And with that executive, interim executive lens, Julia, I see often about the lack of succession planning. And when I talk of succession planning, I think most people think of the CEO. And that is exactly what we're going to address here. CEO, executive director, I kind of use those terms or titles interchangeably. But I also subscribe to the fact that everyone needs a succession plan in every position, staff and board alike. So I was ironically at a community event yesterday evening, I saw another amazing woman here in our community who has served on many boards and has served in the CEO role herself. And she said, I'm joining the show tomorrow because I'm serving as a board chair for an organization and we have no succession plan. And I'm like, you're not alone. And then additionally, I want to share with you that going through an executive search for a full time CEO, there were three final candidates at the table. Two of them recused themselves from the position because there was no succession plan at their current agency. And so I saw this as an opportunity to address an obstacle that we're likely all facing. And again, undoubtedly, we will all face the succession plan conversation. So I've come today with five tips, Julia, to help our audience navigate this in a professional, intellectual, prepared type of way. So yeah, if you'll pull up that number one, I say we just get started and questions. You know, again, I encourage our viewers, our live viewers at least to use the Q&A at the bottom because I want to answer your questions real time. I'm here, ask me anything as it relates to this. But succession planning is a big deal. So key step number one, again, I'm going to share five, but starting with number one is to assess the vacancies that your success plan will address, right? So we're really looking at, okay, in the CEO executive director role, when he or she leaves this position, what are the gaps, right? What are we missing? What do we need to address in this plan? What type of a leader do we need and has the organization grown? I've worked with many organizations. When we first started together, we were, let's say a $2 million organization. And over time, 18 months, 24 months, 36 months, they've grown to like a $10 million organization. So the leader at the helm at the $2 million organization may not be the right leader for a $10 million organization. So you really need to assess those gaps of your leadership and not hire from deficiency, right? Hire from a place of what is it we need? Where are we going and how do we get there? So my thoughts turn to the amazing Rita Sornan, CEO of the Dave Thomas Foundation. And Dave Thomas himself found her, the founder of Wendy's, found her to then start this organization. And she's been with them all this time. And she made the most interesting comments to us, Jared, about how they started with one way, exactly what you said. And then they've grown and changed in what they needed and how they really relied on different talents and skills that Mr. Thomas and even Rita could never have foreseen this, right? So my question to you, given this, is understanding these, you know, these needs, if you want to use the word deficiencies, it seems like it's such a perilous conversation or metric to look at. Because in essence, you're saying, yeah, our current CEO or even our last CEO, our founder or whatever, wasn't up to snuff, didn't have this. How do you navigate that? Yeah, you know, I've had some interesting conversations around this and so much so that this can be a perilous conversation. Oftentimes, the executive director and or CEO is fearful to even bring up succession planning to their board, right? So that is a little risky or can feel a little risky. But the thing is what I like to focus on Julia is we're talking about the best for the organization. And we're talking about legacy, we're talking about sustainability, we're talking about continuing the mission as the community needs it. So we're really putting our best foot forward by discussing succession planning, because you're doing what's best for your community. And that should always be top priority and top of mind. Your governing board or your fiduciary agents of your organization, they should always be making mission driven decisions and succession planning, is that? I love that. I love what you just said, mission driven, you know, decisions and policies. That phrase takes the emotion out of it. Yes, I cannot tell you how many times this week and it's what only, oh, it's Thursday. Thank goodness. I was like, and it's only Tuesday, but it's Thursday. I have said so many times. So many times. Like, it's not. I like to make you laugh, Julia. None of it is personal. It's all business. These are business decisions and nonprofits are a business. And so we have to look at this from that mission centered lens and perspective. And again, that's what succession planning is. So for tip number one, truly, you know, look at your vacancy. What type of leader do you need at the helm for this role going forward as your organization is evolving? Because if we're not evolving, we're dying, truly. So that's one. So then, tip number two, navigates a line and internal vision for your succession plan. Meaning what? Because again, this almost seems to be reinforcing to everybody what you just said that this is mission focused. It's not going to be frightening. It's going to be actually positive. Is that what you're trying to communicate? Or how do we navigate our teams through that fear? Yeah, I really do think, you know, we need to look again at succession planning across the board, every position, not just the executive director. If you have a chief financial officer, if you have a director of development, if you have a director of programs, this conversation should be at the table, at the leadership conversations, constantly, right? Annually, by annually. So really aligning the vision for the succession plan. So maybe, and we're going to talk about this, but maybe we do have an internal candidate that we're grooming. We've seen that happen right here in our community, Julia, and it wasn't an overnight decision. It has been a long time coming and a long time grooming. That is what I would say would be like the best case scenario. But the reality is best case scenarios do not always happen. So we need to prepare for not, you know, not having that best case scenario. So really looking at aligning the internal communications, sharing openly with the board that we do have a succession plan, and it's not an envelope stuffed in the back of a cabinet drawer where you can find it if, by chance, this bus that we've all heard about takes out our entire organization. Don't worry, we have a plan B. That's not a succession plan. Right. I love it. Yeah. And I want to say too, and I'm very passionate, and I can feel my energy like rising and palpitating. The ultimate succession plan is a living trust and will for us as a human, right? So what is your living trust and will for your organization? And we have to humanize this to say, okay, the organization must continue beyond the founder, beyond the current CEO, beyond the current board. What is that plan? And it is not an envelope in the back of a cabinet that's been there for 10 years. I love it. I love that you said that because this kind of leads us to key step number three, and that is cultivate internal talent for future transitions. This is dicey because how do you do this without guaranteeing making somebody an heir apparent? Or as I used to say in the Sopranos, my favorite hair apparent. You know, how do you move and yet not guarantee or cultivate? What does that look like? So in today's workforce, Julia, and we've heard a lot from a lot of our amazing guests, but I'm channeling right now Sky Mercer, right? And she's a fantastic HR consultant. We talk about stay interviews, and that's really become a thing. Instead of an exit interview, you're talking to your staff regularly, and they're called stay interviews. You know, what makes you happy? Where do you see yourself in the next year, three years, five years, learning from your team that exists, what their career goals are, right? There's a lot that happens and changes in people's personal lives. I was just talking to a CEO the other day, and they're going through a huge milestone in their life where their child is graduating high school and they become an empty nester. That's a big life change, right? And so having these conversations cultivating your internal talent for that future transition, they may or may not be there, Julia. They may or may not be on your current roster, your current org chart, but having these conversations to see who in the organization has the ability, the interest to take this on and what might that look like, because if we can essentially groom someone from within, think about the opportunity to build and deepen those relationships with our stakeholders, right? Instead of that one person holding the torch and the torch going out when he or she leaves, the torch remains bright and that's what we want to do and we've seen that happen so beautifully here in our community recently. Yeah, recently a major, major organization that's about a hundred million dollar budget that navigated a transition beautifully and it's tough. Even as wonderful as you can have identified everybody and you don't have crisis and you know you're all good to go and you're all whole, it's still a challenge and I think it is important to understand that and to kind of honor that this process that Jared's talking about is certainly not easy, nor is it for the faint of heart. Now I'm really interested in this and I want to spend a little bit more time on this key step number four and that is outline the executive search phase and off-camera I asked you this question Jared and I'll do it publicly. Do you find that most boards and even C-suite are out of touch with what the process is and more importantly the time needed to deal with this process? I'm trying not to laugh but 100% out of touch and I would say 9 to 12 months is the realistic timeline of bringing in a full-time executive level. Again I serve as that interim executive CEO, COO, CDO in the fundraising realm and it is 9 to 12 months that is essentially what it's going to take because first of all you really want to find the person if they're not internal and again as an interim and I do wave that flag high and proud because I believe so wholeheartedly in bringing in an interim executive leader as part of the succession planning process. I come in, I help you evaluate all of the previous key steps that we've talked about assessing the vacancy, I do that as an interim executive leader aligning the internal vision and communications with stakeholders. We do that in our role as an interim executive leader. We cultivate internal talent because we can see with a fresh perspective without any previous political insight to say hey this person here I think they're your guy or I think they're your person and I've done that I was working for an organization in Seattle and I literally within the first week Julia I said to the executive director I said you've got your girl right here I just had coffee with her this morning and they're like really I didn't think they were ready and I was like she's ready this this is what they need to do it but she's right here in front of you and so bringing in an interim can help with that but realistically I would plan 9 to 12 months to bring in an executive level person you know it takes it takes some time plus making the assumption they're probably at an executive level or a director level at another organization so they need to do due diligence with their agency just as you would want them to do with yours they need to give I would say at least 30 days notice if not 90 day notice when they're exiting their previous place. You know one of the things that you taught me early on and I think it's just fascinating and I and I don't want to move on to our next step without having you amplify this and that's the notion that is so fascinating and might be somewhat shocking or counterintuitive to certain people but the interim director never is considered for this job if they want to put their hat in the ring or if they're being asked to do it then they need to step back is that true. Absolutely and I will tell you I've probably done about 12 in my career so far 12 interim executive positions I would say all 12 have asked me to stay right the board knows you they get comfortable the staff knows you they get comfortable it's the easy decision on the board's part but as a board member it is your fiduciary right to not take the easy steps you have to do what's right mission centric right and so if I were to say hey I'm really interested in this I'd really like to stay right I've now got all the cards in my hands I've got all the advantage in my hand and so bringing in a professional interim executive should not ever be considered for that full-time position if they are considered just as you said Julia they need to remove themselves from that interim role. Yeah I think that's really important and and I think it dovetails to the notion of you know you're looking at board members who've got a lot of other things on their plate and so they're looking around saying how do we take the box and we get somebody managing this ship and and then I can move on to other things but it's not that easy. It's not that easy the other thing I see and I do not approve of is a board member being in transition or in retirement or in someplace in their life where they say I'll do it I'll take the role I'll take it on and it's like no you have just done a disservice to your peers to the organization to the community at large um so I really advise against that I've seen it I've absolutely seen it but I've 100% seen it go awry. Yeah and I think it's not uh to me when I hear that and I have been involved in that I would say um you know it's not professional it's not a professional approach it's kind of like a band-aid and and if you can navigate through this new professional class of leadership called interim CEOs or you know interim C-suite it's just going to set the organization up so much better. I mean I feel like Jared you can tell the groups that they make a rash decision and then they're back at it 10, 12, 16 months later trying to find somebody new versus if they stay the course and they're methodical and thoughtful then they they have a stronger base. Yeah and you know what Julia I see it um it damages culture it damages stakeholder communications and relationships and I think you're being very generous by 16 months down the road I see it happen way too often um earlier six eight months into the transition if they've chosen what is considered an easy path it's just it it might be easy but it's not it's not going to be the longevity. No it's not smart okay now this is going to be our last topic which I can't wait to dig into this because I think you and I have different perspectives and that is transition the individual into their new role and I was talking about this with you again uh in the green room chatter I'm astonished by the number of CEOs that will come to me and say you know I was hired and I and everyone knew who the CEO the previous CEO was nobody ever set anything up for conversation no one reached out I just showed up and sat down at a desk and what for me is such a missed opportunity and really poor leadership transition you have maybe a little different spin to to think about don't you? Yeah I don't I don't believe in that whole heartedly not not all situations I think that is a requirement for so when it comes to transitioning this individual role or this individual rather into their new role I really think it depends on the situation right and when I serve it again as interim executive um you know I serve I serve in many ways but oftentimes it's a triage situation meaning there was no succession plan and there was no you know like uh runway of knowledge of the CEO or our COO or CDO leaving and so it's not really in a healthy position um so it's a lot of that I think that that I'm seeing now if you have the ability and it's healthy and you have a wonderful relationship with the CEO maybe he's here they are retiring we've seen that a lot right now where a lot of C suites have stayed in their you know in the position they had a plan to retire but due to COVID-19 they said I'll hold on to the reins I'm here I'm not going to go anywhere I'm going to keep us steady I'm going to keep us floating we're moving into year three year four actually of COVID and so we have a lot of tenured professionals that are exhausted and they are well past the retirement plan yeah they're ready to leave you know um talk to me a little bit about the shepherding of an interim with a new CEO yeah is that part of this or do you just like so that's yeah that's interesting and I start on a Monday like what does that look like well when I come in I one of the first things I do is an organizational health assessment so it really is an analysis of all moving pieces of the organization that is given to the board and it's also given to the new hire right so so they have that to say okay a professional came in they pulled back the curtains they they rolled up the rugs and they looked at everything in the organization they've pulled out the skeletons the dust bunnies the you know oh nobody's supposed to see that let's not talk about that like we find them that's our job is to find them it's risk assessment right so what I tend to do though is I will provide some type of a transition but I tell the board you are no longer able to contact me I am not accessible to you as a board I am accessible to the new hire because the board has got to entrust the confidence the rapport and all decision making to the new hire because once that person is in place the interim or the former CEO should never be the one making decisions so if I have a board member contact me I just redirect them you know and say you know as a friendly reminder this is for the CEO I'm no longer in that capacity they are able to contact me the CEO could certainly contact me because I also believe in institutional knowledge transition and you know I want to share that so so we do that I do that I should say it's not always a cookie cutter approach for all entrums but I do think it's really important just as it is sitting down with former board members to know the institutional knowledge and the historical milestones of an organization yeah absolutely you know it's almost seems like it's a segue into coaching it is it is a segue into coaching absolutely but one thing I want to bring up on this tip in the transition is a PR plan a public relations communications plan for all stakeholders right internal external maybe there's a press release maybe you have a publication you know in your community that you really want to honor the past executive you can certainly do that in a timely manner if they are able to introduce the incoming CEO fantastic if not that's okay right and I would also highlight the incoming CEO separately so that you are able to announce that person to the community I'm so I really do think a strong PR communication plan helps to set you up for a successful CEO succession planning and transition I love that you brought that up of course you're speaking my love language you know absolutely and we don't do that enough because then it looks like sometimes that leadership change is a corrective issue and and you know we don't want to do that we want to maintain those champions and those links to what you know what has been moving forward without hindering that new leader I mean yeah I really want to say and I and I hear you and I know that it can seem like corrective and that's why if we don't tell our story people will tell our story for us succession planning and and new hires in this role it's strategic it's not corrective it's strategic regardless of the situation it could be a triage you could something something bad could have happened but it's still strategic and how you're handling this for the organization moving forward so that's your message right and again we've learned this from from many of our marketing people if we don't tell our story it will be told for us absolutely absolutely we want to be able to to navigate that forward well you are always one of my favorite guests well thank you Jarrett Ransom non-profit nerd CEO the Raven group what an amazing vision that you have of this beloved sector of ours and you you've been able to see and be part of so many different things and it's just it comes through every time we're able to talk whether we're yeah you know the rare occasions having coffee together but for most of you out there you know we don't see one another except every day for 30 minutes on the show right here so it's really cool to be able to have you all to myself and really get your vision and in your values and your wisdom so Jarrett Ransom again non-profit nerd the woman that when she was tapped on the shoulder to say hey what about this crazy idea for a show during COVID she said yes and so I told that story last night um I was like you know Julia said it'd be two weeks I said yes here we are coming up on 700 episodes moving into year four and we're still saying yes every day but I love it I'm passionate about our sector that's why I call myself the non-profit nerd but if anyone needs help with their succession planning reach out to me it's definitely a service line that I offer would love to walk you through this process so that it is successful no pun intended for your organization because I believe wholeheartedly in the great work that we do in our community and I want everyone to experience us in a very positive manner so thank you for allowing me to nerd out on this succession planning topic today Julia oh my god it's been a lot of fun again I'm Julia Patrick as you all know we've been joined by Jarrett R. Ransom the non-profit nerd herself CEO of the Raven group again we want to thank all of our generous sponsors Blumerang American non-profit academy your part-time controller be generous fundraising academy at national university staffing boutique non-profit thought leader and of course non-profit nerd wow okay Jarrett go forth and do great things today my friend thank you thank you for holding down the fort um tomorrow I'll be in the hot seat with somebody from fundraising academy for our friday and uh that'll be a lot of fun so join us in absolutely thank you hey thank you and as we like to remind everyone stay well so you can do well we'll see you back here tomorrow