 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keeffe, the host and producer of the chats. And this evening, I'm joining Alan Stroke, who is in California. Where are you located in California exactly? I am in Redlands. Most people in Southern California just know that as a place you pass through between LA and Palm Springs. Okay. And we are doing this on Zoom because we are still having too many COVID-19 issues for me to be able to travel to California to interview you. So it's very gracious of you to join me here. I'm happy to be here tonight. Okay, and it is Thursday evening, August 27th, 2020. So Alan, tell us a little bit about your growing up and a bit about your family. Well, I grew up in a suburb outside the city of Milwaukee. I was just a pretty small, quiet town. Not a whole lot happened there. Pretty much a nondescript city. I am the fifth of six children. And I have had an older brother who was also gay. I was pretty much just your basic childhood. Nothing exciting, nothing unusual. Kind of like what most of us experienced growing up. And what suburb were you in? It was called the city of Franklin. Okay, okay. That's relatively near to where I am in Chicago. Yes. All things considered. You mentioned an older brother who was gay. Do you mind telling us a little bit about him? Yeah, he's no longer with us, unfortunately. He came out before I did. I was about, oh, maybe 12 or 13 when he came out. And when he came out to the family, none of us believed him. Because up until that point, he was a womanizer. It seemed like he was always with another woman, or I guess teenager, I guess, at the time. Cause he was about three and a half years older than me. So we, I didn't believe him. I thought he was just joking with us at first. It was just really hard to believe that he was gay. He just didn't, there was nothing about him that he would have thought. Okay. What happened to him? Unfortunately, he died, going about eight to nine years ago. He died actually in a bath house in Phoenix. He occasionally dabbled in substances. And when they found him, he had passed out in the sauna. And he had been chewing gum and that lodged in the back of his throat. Sorry. And well, by the time they found him, he had pretty much oxygen to his brain, had been cut off long enough that, well, he was brain dead. Oh, okay. It was, and I, yeah, I still miss him. I'm pissed off at him for dying. He had a very big influence on you though. Well, he was older brother. He was there for me when I had my own problems growing up. Nothing major, but influence in many different ways. When we were younger, he was one of most of my siblings that liked to tease me and torment me. But once we got older, when I finally was able to accept who I was and decided to come out to the family, I just told them, I said, Paul, I got something to tell you. And he just said, yeah, I know, you're gay. I think that's a pretty common reaction in most families. They always know before you tell them. They have a good idea. So he knew, and he's been there for me. He helped me out of a few, nothing serious, but just a few jams and problems in my life. Paul, we teased him. He did not have the most book smarts, but when it came to common sense and mechanical ability, he's the kind of person who could take apart the entire engine of a car and rebuild it. And it would run better when he was done. Wow. Did you two ever go out cruising around together? Not very often. He had his circle of friends, I had mine. It was, I don't know, it would just seem to, we'd meet and hang out in one bar in Milwaukee occasionally, but most of the time we went our own separate ways. Well, speaking of Milwaukee, you, tell me about the scene that you encountered when you came out. Well, Milwaukee, Wisconsin is known for its beer, its drinking. It's considered to be one of the highest consumption of alcohol states in the nation. I think it's up there in the top three, if I'm right. I think it might be behind only on Nevada. So growing up back in the 80s, the running joke in the city is there pretty much was at least three bars on every corner in town. There's a lot of truth to that. It's a little exaggeration, but to Milwaukee had between 30 and 40 gay bars at the time. Wow. There was plenty of places to go to drink. That's where you went to socialize. That was the social scene back then. What were some of the bars you visited? The first bar I went to was called Shadows. I can look back at it and say that it was definitely a fluffy sweater bar. You know, that's where it went. But after that, places like the rec room, the boot camp saloon, occasionally we go to the drag dance bar called Lacage, but those were the primary places that we would go. How was the clientele at the time? Bars were always crowded, lots of cruising, always busy, so there was definitely plenty to see and do. So yeah, it could be fun. There's a little more restrictive because you did have, you couldn't get a little too crazy because you could get shut down if anything illicit happened in the bars. So they were a little bit strict on that. Well, I recall when we were preparing for this interview, you mentioned you were out in the community at the time of Jeffrey Dolmer. Yes. And for the audience, would you please explain who Jeffrey Dolmer was and what did you or the other people know about him? He was, is a notorious serial killer. He killed, I forget exactly how many young gay men, but he would prey on the lonely, a lot of the gay men who didn't have a big social circle, who were a little more quiet. He would take them home. Pretty much what he was trying to do was create a zombie boyfriend that wouldn't leave him. He worked, he had this huge, from everything I remember, he had this huge vat of acid, which he got from work and I have no idea how, but he would drug his victims and then he would drill a hole into their brain and pour acid in there while he was attempting to sort of, I don't know, kill the brain cells or something and he wanted his own little zombie boyfriend, somebody that wouldn't leave. Obviously from what I'm saying, you can tell he had a lot of his own issues too. And that's an understatement? Yeah, no kidding. So it was, when it broke, it was this huge shockwave, not just through the community, but through the entire country. People were, it was headline news and they called it gay overkill, which people started to push back going, what is the difference between killing and overkilling? I mean, it was like, they were sensationalizing it. Then everybody was little freaked out and when the news broke, it was kind of weird. I got a call from my sister who was living down in the Memphis area and she's just calling me up to tell me, talk and say, we saw the story on the news and she says, I was sitting here with Ron, my husband and we looked at the guy in the pictures on the news and we both looked at each other and said, he looks just like Alan. I was so pissed off to be even remotely told you look like a serial killer was just kind of, it was not good. Well, do I correctly remember he preferred men of color? Isn't that right? He did pray more on the Latino, black and Asian community. He didn't primarily go after white males. Wow, how did the community there react? Was there fear, panic? The biggest, I never met him. I don't recall ever seeing him, but those who did were kind of just in shock going, oh my God, that could have been me. So that was the general reaction. Other than that, we were all kind of like the rest of the country. We were just in shock that it happened, that it could have happened, that it happened in our own neighborhood and our places that we hung out. You know, it was just surreal and weird and everybody was a little freaked out and glad that he was caught and it was over. That was in the mid, isn't that right? Yeah, I don't remember exactly the year, but between like 81 and 83 or 84, I think. Okay, yeah. But taking a quick step back, he's growing up, that you loved the wild, wild West movie news and TV programs, what's about that? Well, I didn't realize it at the time. I was just a kid, you know, 8, 10, you know, thereabouts when those shows came out, but I just remember watching it and knowing that anytime somebody was getting tied up in any of those shows, I was really liking it. There was something about it that was kind of exciting. You know, as a kid, you don't think anything about it. It's just something you saw, something that you thought was kind of fun and you enjoyed. So I can look back now and connect the dots and say, aha, there was an early start. I just didn't know it yet. So you might say that in many ways those were my formative leather years. I just didn't know it. What were some of the programs or movies that you liked? Well, you mentioned wild, wild West. That was probably my favorite because there was always somebody getting tied up on that show. So, and then of course there was James West, who was, you know, back then he had the perfect body. So, you know, you put the two together and well, I was done. But moving back into sort of the Milwaukee scene, you mentioned the Beartown Badger's Club. Yes, that was the first leather club that I ever joined. A friend introduced me to them and I eventually pledged and became a member. The leather club scene back then was, especially in the Midwest, was a lot different. Every larger city, even a lot of the middle-sized cities had leather clubs and that's where you socialized with your club brothers and all the different cities, they would always once a year have a club run and they would invite people from the other clubs and GDIs which called Goddamn Independence. They would just come in and it was a chance just to meet club brothers from out of state, friends, make new friendships, get drunk, get laid, you know, that's what it was all about and you just go throughout, almost like the leather club circuit and just all the different cities. It was really a lot of fun and I kind of missed that scene because there was the sense of community and camaraderie that I don't think exists the way it did back then. So it's one of those things, I wish there was a way to bring it back but who knows, I don't know if it's possible. Tell us a little more about the club, how big was it? Had about a dozen members at the biggest. It was one of three clubs in the city and each one had a group of about 10 or 12 members and there were some rivalries and some different, didn't always get along with every member and some clubs really didn't like the others but and that was true of almost every city. There was always, I guess you'd say rival clubs but I knew most of the members and most of the clubs and we all got along pretty well. What made you comfortable with that particular club? It's just the guys who were in the club. You got to know them. They were people that you see them and you're just an instant friendship and there were the bonds and we just really got along well together and knew how to have a lot of fun. Do you recall the other clubs? The, yeah, one of them was the Oberans. There was the Castaways. The Beertum Badgers was a spin-off from the Castaways. There was some sort of a split before I joined so there was always a little bit of rivalry there. Those were the three main clubs while I was there. What sort of activities did the Beertum Badgers club do? Mostly we would just have a bar night usually once a night just to raise funds to help us pay for our club run. Back then it was really, everything was about socializing. It wasn't the same as it is today where now the clubs are all designed around usually doing charitable things. You could not actually be a leather club and be a 501C3 back then. It just wouldn't have gone through. So it was just a chance to socialize. The bar nights, we'd raise a few hundred dollars. It was never a large amount. But that's pretty much we just saved it and used it as needed for different events to help fund our annual club run. Well, in the 80s, a couple of hundred dollars was a lot of money. I suppose that's true. From perspective looking back, yes. Yeah, so. But you also explored the Chicago scene at that time. Tell us something about that. That was definitely, you could definitely have a lot more fun in the bars there. All the Chicago bars at the time, they all had back rooms. And yes, I know, shocking. Most of the time the back rooms were more crowded than the front bar. And so yeah, there was always things going on. Lots of those things you shouldn't talk about, but you had to do. Sometimes. Well, if you can think it, they would probably do it. I've never sought, but I heard that there were, sometimes guys were back, they're getting fisted, but lots of sucking and fucking. Not enough room to have any bondage scenes, but it was mostly just cruising and just having your basic suck and fuck sex. And sometimes it would get a little more intense. But usually it was just sex. What bars did you visit at that time? The one that I remember the most was one called the double A Meat Market. Yes. It was built in a former meat market. And then, God, I feel real bad because there was another one up on the north side and I just cannot remember its name. The girls, speakeasy. No, it was a leather bar. Touche. Touche, that's the one. And I should remember it, but I just couldn't. But yeah, those were the two primary places that when we ever went down there that we would do our little bar crawl. And the other nice thing about a lot of the Chicago bars is some of them were open almost 24 hours. So we could do last call in Milwaukee, get on the road, drive for about 90 minutes, still have time to go to the bars in Chicago and have a couple more drinks before we would sloppily drive home. My gosh. Yeah, it was bad but good. You mentioned at that time that you experienced mummification. Yes, this was, today it would have been considered to be an extremely risky and dangerous thing. Was out at one of the bars and met this guy and we just kind of hit it off and didn't know him, didn't know anything about him. And he said, let's go back to my place. And I was there with my friends and they all looking going, yeah, just go, go, you'll have fun. The bartender was like, somebody said, one of the bartenders said that they knew him and it was okay. And so fine, went back there and yeah, discovered that mummification was a hell of a lot of fun. And I really enjoyed it and in retrospect, I have zero regrets. It was a great first scene and I had a great time and I'm still alive, so it's all good. What made it so great? I just found out that it was something that I really, really enjoyed. There's something about being mummified that can create this, a sense of security and safety. You're kind of like cocooned and wrapped up. And for me, I've learned since then that when I am mummified, I can get very, very relaxed. Relaxed to the point that sometimes I will fall asleep. Wow. Yeah, it just brings that relaxation really out there and makes it easy for me to just let go and zone out. So this is an activity you frequently enjoy? Not as much as I'd like to, but yes. When I have a chance, I will do it. It's fun to be mummified and it's also fun to mummify other people. What sort of facilities do you have where you're located now in California to be able to do this? We have a, at least as far as the family knows, a spare room, but it does have enough equipment. There's a cross, a sling, a bondage table and many shells full of various supplies to play with. Wow. Yeah, we do have enough that if we wanna play or have people over, we are able to keep them entertained or vice versa. So you're keeping it in-house a bit? Not all the time, but sometimes in-house, other times out-of-house, it just depends on the situation. What took you to California? Well, the man who is currently now my husband. When I was living in Milwaukee, I knew I wanted a little more in Milwaukee being a small town community. There weren't a lot of people there and I pretty much knew everybody that I was going to know. And I was sort of seeing somebody, but he had a boyfriend. They'd been together for about five or six years and it wasn't going anywhere. There really wasn't. I didn't see any chance of things changing. I did not see that they were ever going to split up. And yes, they both knew about me. It was not something on the side. Everybody knew what was going on. Occasionally we did play together all three. So I decided to see what else I could find. And back then, of course, we didn't have the internet, but we did have magazines with what were called Pink Pages. And I placed an ad in Drummer Magazine. And my now husband responded. He was one of many. And we just started talking, conversations over the phone. Sometimes it was for a couple of hours, came out to visit and after meeting him, decided, yeah, there's definitely something here. This could work out, visited another time and then had one winter where everything seemed that could go wrong in my life was going wrong. My roommate at the time announced that he was going to buy a house. And so he was moving out. So I was now gonna be without a roommate. My job was not going well. I did not like it. It was just not a good time. And Mike, my husband had said, if you ever wanna come out here, you're welcome to come out. He made it very clear that if I did this, it was on my own. He was not going to pay to have me move out. He wanted me to make sure that if I'm doing it, I mean it. And I was gonna make it happen on my own and I did. And we've now been together for over 27 years. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. And for our 25th anniversary, we first decided to hold just a 25th anniversary party and invited all our friends over and family just to have this huge celebration. We did not tell them, it was Mike's idea that they were going to be guests at a surprise wedding. Oh, wow. We decided this is where we're gonna do it called one of our friends who was very dear to us. And we asked her if she would officiate the wedding. And she was thrilled. She shed a few tears because she was just so shocked and pleased that we asked her. She went out and for us, she got her a license so that she could perform the wedding. And it was pretty cool because most of Mike's family lives here in the area. And his, actually his sister who was, her and her husband live in Hungary, they've been there for about, I think, seven years. She was back in town at the time, so she was gonna be there. My mom and my sister from Phoenix were there and my younger brother, who still lives in Milwaukee, flew out. None of them had a clue what was going on. So it was, when we finally did announce what was going on, actually it was Olga who made the announcement and it was very, very loud and happy cheering. So it was something special. How wonderful. Yeah. It's really beautiful. It was, yeah, I'd like to say it was my idea, but it was all Mike's idea to do the wedding. He's the one that kind of said, you know, it's been 25 years, let's make it official. And since the Supreme Court had said gay marriage is legal, we decided to get on the bandwagon with a lot of our other friends who've been together for a while. Yeah. But you said when you moved out there that there was a bit of a challenge trying to find a community and what did you call it, the inland empire? Yes, yeah, the whole, pretty much Riverside, San Bernardino County has been called the inland empire before I haven't got a clue how long. Because we're about 70 miles east of LA and about 35 miles west of Palm Springs, we're kind of stuck in the middle and there are bars here, but there's not a lot. Most people, when they want to go out and they wanna do something, they will drive to LA or to Palm Springs because both of them have much larger established gay communities. And you've got West Hollywood and LA and Palm Springs is kind of like the new gay capital of the world, it seems. Everybody is moving there now, but it's always had that huge vibrant community. There's lots of bars, lots of events, lots of things happening in both cities. So we would invariably always go to those cities to meet, to hang out. So yeah, that's, there's just, I've been to the bars here, they're nice bars, but they're not leather bars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should think they'd be more community type. Very much so. And yeah, when I moved out here, San Bernardino had two or three bars, now it has none, Riverside has two, and there's a very small handful of bars in other cities in the area. I think probably totally inland empire might only have about four or five gay bars. And with this whole pandemic going on, who knows how many of them are gonna survive? I know. I know, we're seeing that all over. Yeah, it's a shame. But what did you find there for community then? I mean, if you had such limited resources, what did you do? Well, it started through somebody that Mike Met came over for a play date. At the end of the night, he, you know, I know we were just talking about the lack of community out here, and he told us about this organization actually down in Orange County. They had monthly programs where they would just meet and talk about different subjects and do PG rated demos. It was called Orange Coast Leather Assembly. OCLA, and it was actually started if I remember correctly by Brian Dawson. And so a lot of people know who he is. He's a very well-known and well-respected Leatherman. And actually, I know it was Brian and there were a couple of others involved. And sadly, I cannot remember all of their names. But we went down there and just started going to the meetings, met people there. They used to hold an event called Sampler out in the desert in Palm Springs. They would take over one of the gay resorts for the weekend. They would invite guest presenters out to teach. They would be one-on-one hands-on classes. They usually were about 25 presenters. Could get about a hundred people would attend. And so it was a chance really just to try things, to learn things. And again, it was small community. You'd spend the whole weekend with the same group of people. And again, you would develop friendships. And after a while, we decided to start getting involved and helping with the weekend events. And one of the members, or guys who would attend those a lot was also a member of Avatar Club Los Angeles. And through all of this and watching how Mike and I would work and interact and got involved in everything, we decided that he was going to nominate us for membership in Avatar. And through that, we did get nominated. We were invited to join. And we've been members of that club ever since. Well, for that benefit of the audience, what is Avatar? Avatar is a gay men's BDSM educational organization. Part of our mission is to teach safe, sane, consensual BDSM. So we hold, held, we will eventually do it again, monthly meetings on all different kinds of subjects. Everything from flogging and fisting and hot wax, electrical play, cock and ball torture. Every month would be a different subject. Sometimes it would just be a talk. People would just come out and talk about different things. We had a hypnotherapist come out once. Midori has done a few classes. We try to get a lot of different subjects and people to come in and teach. One of the fun little facts that kind of blows some people's mind is that we hold our meetings in a church. Yes, it's part of it's one of the metropolitan community churches, so it is a gay-affirmed church. But just knowing that there is this type of stuff going on in the church, it blows a few people's minds. It's cool because all of the different pastors who we have had at this church throughout the years, they treat the church as an affirming place, as a place of sanctuary and home for anybody. And so they welcome everybody. Any part of the community is welcome there. So it's nice because there have been members of the church who were very offended that we were there. And the Reverend at the time said, well, you know what? I'm sorry you feel that way. And if you do and you choose to leave, we'll miss you. So he supported and backed all of the different organizations that met there. Wow, what were some of the other ones that we're meeting? Well, there was lots of AA groups, of course. There's different transgender groups that would meet there. At one time, they did have, they have this very small building. Literally, it is a one-room schoolhouse at the back of the property. And so they did have some school classes going on there. Very small ones, of course. But so it was all kinds of stuff like that. And everybody was welcome. You were president of the Abatars. Yep, I'm one of, well, now it would be three people who has been crazy enough to do it for two terms. You're allowed to be president for two years and then you have to step down. Does not mean you can never run again, but you have to step down after two years and let somebody else take the reins. So I was president twice. And I do tell people that I probably was, must be a little crazy because I was willing to go back and face that kind of abuse a second time. Well, that's a strong statement. Why do you say that? It's said ingest. Anybody who's ever run a nonprofit volunteer organization knows that it is a challenge. It is a lot of work and a lot of effort that you have to put into it because it's a volunteer organization. These are not employees. They're here because they wanna be, but you also have to keep them motivated. You have to nurture them. You have to run the organization and keep it functioning. And it's a lot of work. It takes a lot of effort, willpower and definitely a lot of love. So when I say I'm crazy enough to do it, it is said ingest, but there's a little bit of truth to it as well. But you really have to be dedicated and care about an organization to wanna do that. What would you say were your greatest challenges? Volunteer coordination. That what with any volunteer organization, I love you, you've heard of what's called the 90-10 rule. It's 10% of the people do 90% of the work. Yes, yes. So, and that's the hard part is trying to have enough volunteers and enough people who are willing to do that work. And now, because it's always the small core that does the large work. That's really been the biggest challenge. And- So did you face that both times you were in that position? Definitely, definitely. The first time I had been the program chair for many, many years prior to this, a friend of mine in the club had approached me once and asked me to do the volunteer committee for that to help recruit the presenters. My first response was, I haven't lived here that long and I don't know that many people. I have no idea where I'm gonna get these people to volunteer to teach programs. And I was right, it was hard, but I had the president was there to help me. Other members would help me. They would give me names and offer suggestions. So I was able to get them to do it and to find presenters. But after a while, I just had to step back because I did that for like five years and that was more than enough. And it was time for other people who, and new ideas, fresh ideas to come in and let somebody else take over the reins for that. What would you say was your greatest success within our avatar? Well, it was the second year or the second set of terms that I took. When I took it over at the time, the club was having a lot of problems. The, I'm trying to say this politely. It was shrinking. Our finances were, we were almost broke and there was a lack of motivation in the club. And so the hard part at the time, it was almost nobody wanted to run for president at the time and nobody wanted to be on the board. So the president said, if nobody runs the board, if we don't have enough people, we have to fold. And so finally it was a group of us decided that we're not gonna let this club die. It's not gonna go and fade away and become just another statistic. So we're about five or six of us, we decided that this is what we're gonna do. And so we did it and it was hard because the first year we had a struggle. The club had not been meeting regularly like it used to. So people were starting to forget about us. And so we had to do a slow rebuild. So we would start holding meetings, instead of doing them every month, we started doing them by monthly. We didn't bring back our boot camp classes, which is our small one-on-ones hands-on classes where you can go into a small group and we'll teach you things in a more intimate nature. We didn't do those for the first year. And we just needed to get our feet back on the ground and we started to rebuild our finances, get our name back out in the community. And then the second year, we just started doing the boot camp classes, started holding monthly meetings again. And we got ourselves back on track and we've been going strong ever since. And I'm really, really happy that the club is still around. I believe this type of an organization that offers this type of education and training, it needs to be out there. I don't think there's enough groups throughout the country that do this. You can learn a lot on the internet. You can learn a lot that's not correct, that's not true, that's wrong information. But when you're actually able to see it and watch it happening and do the hands-on occasionally, you get a lot more out of it. You can learn so much more in person than you can by watching a video. Doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that because I truly believe there's a lot of videos put out there by different organizations that are really good and powerful. And they are necessary as well. But hands-on I think just adds that much more personal element to it. How many years has Avatar been an organization? 30, I'm gonna get it wrong. I think it's 37. Fantastic, okay, very good. It was formed back during the height of the AIDS crisis. Pretty much the guys who formed it, it was a chance for them to kind of bond and come together and it was sort of a little bit of a safety net for everybody. There's a whole lot more history to it, but that's really the Cliff Notes version. But you also enjoy rubber. Yes, I do. I don't remember exactly what it was that I first saw that intrigued me by it, but I know I saw a photo of it somewhere, of this guy in rubber, and there was just something really sexy and hot and erotic about it. And it was something I just looked at that going, I really wanna try this. I need to find out what it's all about. And so I found a place that was selling it online and I ordered a pair of rubber shorts and a tank top, got it in the mail, tried it on, and I absolutely loved it. It was everything I was hoping it would be, and then more. There really is something about the way rubber feels on the body. It's tight, it's clingy, it's very sensual and erotic. When you touch somebody or somebody touches you when you're wearing rubber, it's a totally different feel than just skin-on-skin. It just really, the senses and everything is much more erotic-sized, and you can almost call it a tingle when somebody does it right. I really like it. I see. You said you still have your first outfit. Well, I would say I have what's left of it. Well, rubber doesn't last. It's gonna degrade over time. We're talking about a piece of rubber that's gotta be pushing 40, not quite 40, but 35 years old. It's not gonna survive. It's just now it's more a clump of stuck together pieces of red and blue rubber that I just don't have the heart to get rid of it because even though it's really completely useless, it means a lot to me. So I just cannot get rid of it. Is there no way to keep rubber from doing that? Yeah, never wear it. Keep it covered, protected, stored away in the dark with a lot of tissue paper and stuff. And yeah, it'll last longer, but there's no fun in that. Rubber is meant to be worn and enjoyed and anybody who wears rubber knows that at some point, it's gonna break, it's gonna tear. It's just not built to last. That's just the nature of rubber. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's unlike leather. Leather will last a lot longer. It's an animal hide, it's designed to last. Rubber comes from more of a liquid beginnings, I guess. And eventually it's gonna go back to that. Wow. So, but still I just can't get rid of it. Wow. I mean, excuse me, knowing how much money people spend on some of that. Yeah. Can't imagine losing it after a while. Yeah, you go into it knowing it's gonna happen. I mean, I had a rubber catsuit, which I won, and I was helping a friend do a fundraiser at the Eagle LA here in Los Angeles. It was called the Wheel of Torture. And we had the spinning wheel where you would spin it and whatever it landed on is what we got to do to the guy was helping do the fundraiser. He was the current Mr. Los Angeles Leather. So all kinds of stuff that we could do to him. At the end of the night, as we were starting to tear down, the wheel had these little spikes on it where the little plastic thing would slow it down so it would stop. And I just barely grazed that and the rubber tore. I stopped, I moved just a little bit and that's all it took for the whole back from the butt crack halfway up the waist it all just blew apart. Oh, no. Yeah, everybody who was, this was right close to bar closing and everybody who was there saw it. And you could see everybody just sort of stopped and looked and they were like, oh my God. What can you do? What a shame. It was too badly torn to save. There's just no way that that could have been fixed. Well, what a shame. I truly did not know this about rubber. I just did not know. So Bob, you still owe me a new cat suit. I've been joking with him for years. He felt horrible about it too, but you know. Which Bob, do you mean? He was one of the Mr. L.A. Leathers. He's living back in Michigan now. Okay. He moved there with his husband. So I will just tease him. But you also won Mr. West Coast Rubber. Tell us about that. Yes. A friend of mine decided he was going to, he wanted to create a rubber contest so that they could send somebody to compete at MIR, Mr. International Rubber. And he approached me and he asked me if I would just enter the contest because they needed a couple of people at least to be in the contest to make it viable. And at first my reaction was, I'm not that kind of a person. I'm not, you know, I don't look good enough. I don't have the right body. I didn't want to do this. And he kind of cajoled me a little bit, did sort of remind me that I did owe him a favor. And finally I relented and said, okay, fine. I will run in a feeder contest for West Coast Rubber. It was the Gauntlet II at the time, which is now the Eagle LA. And so they were going to do the Gauntlet II Rubberman contest. And I entered and there were three contestants and very much to my surprise, I won. I really was not expecting it. Why not? I just didn't think I would win. I just didn't feel I was the person that they wanted, but I was wrong. And so the next one was the West Coast Rubber, held in August in Palm Springs. And yeah, it was 110 degrees during the day and nineties at night. And you've got about 75 to 100 men in rubber in the summertime. And it was one of the best times. And again, held the contest. And again, much to my surprise, I won. So I'm kind of going, hmm, there's something going on here. This is kind of cool. Went to MIR and then complete exact opposite weather conditions because now we're talking Chicago in November for a rubber contest. So we go from this, you know, 100 plus degree heat to having to wear almost parkas in the winter time in Chicago because it does get cold there at that time of year. And I didn't win, which I was first runner up. So I was still pleased about that, but the guy who won was this 20-something dancer from Germany, really cute, super sexy body, nice guy, you know, he won. Hard to compete against that. Yeah, what year was that? It's about 16 or 17 years ago. So early nineties, 91 or 92. No, I'm sorry. Right around the year 2000. Okay. See, I'm getting my days all wrong here. But right around 2000, 2002, I think. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, I've attended MIR a couple of times, but I don't regularly. I was a little younger then. Well, mm-mm. Yeah, I know, we all were. Yeah. But yeah, it was fun. I liked it. I know MIR has dramatically grown over the years because I personally know rubber Willie, I've interviewed him. So you get a different perspective that way. Yeah, he is definitely very, very passionate about the contest and it's pretty much through his sheer will and force of nature, I guess that it's been going for all these years. He's the person who has kept it alive and he is definitely driving force behind that contest. I agree. But switching gears a little bit, what are your thoughts on mentoring in the community? What? For me, it's definitely very helpful and beneficial. It's gotta be the right fit, but that's a big part of what Avatar does. So mentoring is part of who many of us are and what we do. We're happy to share our knowledge and our skills and to pass on this to other generations and other people who are willing to learn. There are times when Mike or I will have somebody over just to let them learn and try something. It can be very satisfying when you do this and just with the bootcamp classes, when you have somebody who's been to those classes at Avatar Holds and they come up to you a few years later and say, I remember that class and I really got a lot out of it and I learned so much and I appreciate that you did this. So in a lot of ways it is just paying it forward, helping other people learn and grow. But as a mentor, what have you learned about mentoring? That's tough. It's, it can be fun and rewarding. You've got to whoever you're doing it with that gotta be here. They have to be interested. You definitely cannot force it on somebody. If they don't wanna learn, they're not gonna wanna learn and you can't force them to learn. And different things will work for different people. There's things, you cannot teach the same thing the same way to everybody because we all have a different skill sets, our different backgrounds, our different knowledge bases, different abilities. We're all gonna learn differently. And there's some people who, they will never get certain subjects. Maybe because they just lack a skill, maybe because they in the end decide, I don't really care for that. That's not for me. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah. You're also a member of the LA Leather Coalition. Yes, I've been on the board for about 10 or 11 years or so. Okay. It is the umbrella organization that puts on the Los Angeles Leather Contest. And we've had some incredible title holders. We've had a number of them that have gone on to win International Mr. Leather. Yes. And so that's three of them. So that's pretty good track record. And so we're very, very pleased with that. But it is a lot. Again, it's another one of those things. It's a lot of work. The LALC is an organization that's built with community partners. So we are responsible to those partners. The board puts on the organization, but the membership, the board membership, it's our job to make sure all the community partners are involved and feel involved. And we try to give them all a say in what's happening. So it's, again, it's another one of those organizations because you're bringing in all these different groups. There's clubs, there's businesses, there's nonprofits. And we have to balance and work with everybody. That can be a challenge at times. Well, maybe you know that I teamed up with LA Leather Coalition last year in March to do a series of these fireside chats in Los Angeles. Yes. And that was, for me, very rewarding. I very much enjoyed it. There are some really, really good members. And they're people who are extremely passionate about the organization, about the leather community, just really about fostering the whole leather community and helping to keep it growing and alive and vibrant. A lot of people look at what we have in LA, the fact that we've been able to bring all these different groups and organizations together and work for the most part, cohesively, I won't say always, because like any group you're gonna have issues, there are other cities that have as many groups and organizations and they're too busy fighting amongst each other to see common ground. And somehow, and I really couldn't tell you how we did it, we were able to put the egos and everything aside and find that common ground to make something special. And any city that's able to do this, they're gonna be truly blessed. Yeah, it is wonderful to see, truly. I wish it were something you could market. This is how you do it, people. You can't, it all comes down to, I shouldn't say all comes down to, but a big part of it can come down to ego, the ability to set your own goals aside, your own wants and needs aside and work towards one common goal. And if you can do that and find a way to find this common ground, you're good. You're gonna do well. How do you think and why do you think LA Leather Coalition was successful in preparing three IMLs and other people that did very well in the contest circuit? You asked about this earlier, it's mentoring. Okay. A big part of it is mentoring. If you have a group of people who are willing to mentor and coach potential title holders, because you really don't know what you're in for when you're going on to compete at these events. And if you're not prepared, you're not gonna do well at all. So we have all these people who have competed and they know what it's like, they know what to expect and they're able to pass on their knowledge and they're willing to take the time to help these men and women and help them to be successful. Cause there are a lot of women in the community too who go on to compete at IMZO International in this Leather and they do very well there also. So there's a lot of, that's part of it. We do have, because the way the LALC is set up for the contest, there are feeder contests. And in any given year, there can be anywheres between eight and 12 feeder contests to the Los Angeles Leather Contest. Some cities are lucky to have one contest and get two people to compete. So, but it takes a lot of work. It's all of these different organizations and bars and businesses, they have to go out there and look for people who are interested in running and they have to help them. And sometimes you have to convince them, they wanna do it like what happened for me. And for many of them, they have the most amazing experience of their life. They develop these friendships and bonds that last for years, the ones who go on to compete at IML, you can talk to a lot of the people not just here, but throughout the world. When you're a member of a class at IML, there's a bond there that forms. I've never done it, but this is what you always hear. There's these bonds and these friendships that develop and they can last for years and years. And you talk to the people who've competed and this is something that one of the probably the most important thing they bring back is that sense of brotherhood. And I think it's credit to IML because they help foster that as well. Yes, it's true. But LA Leather Coalition's had some, would you say growing pains or some recent challenges? What's going on? Yeah, a lot of people heard last year, we tried a combined contest for a Mr. LA Leather, Ms. LA Leather and LA Boot Black. And there were problems, there were parts of the community that were not excited or happy about it. And there were different organizations that really did not like it, they didn't want it. I personally liked it, I thought it was a great idea, but the majority of after one year, we decided we're gonna try it for one year, see what happens and then we'll vote whether or not we're gonna continue or not do it again. And unfortunately, a slight majority decided not to do it. And it was, I, very disappointed by that vote, but it was the vote of the community. And well, that was the end of that brave experiment. I'm hopeful that someday we'll be able to find a way to do it again, I guess only time will tell. Why were you disappointed? I just don't understand why you can't do all of these. I understand there was a logistical issue, having 10 men's contestants, two women and a boot black contest as well, doing all of this in one night, the logistics were crazy. It took super precise timing, everything had to go perfectly according to schedule. There was no room to deviate, no room for anything to go wrong. Overall, I'd say like 98% went like clockwork. There are always gonna be some glitches, there's always gonna be some issues, but it went well. That was one of the things. Some people complained that it was hard to follow and I would agree with that. The way the contest was set up was a little disjointed and so it was difficult for the audience to follow all the time, but that was the first year that would have been a lesson learned and I know we would have done it differently if we'd have done it again, that was part of it. But I don't know, there are just different reasons and in some ways I really don't want to go into to speculate on what some of the different organizations were thinking when they decided not to do this. That's really not my place. Well, I know this year, 2020, the contest had to be canceled due to the, of course the COVID issues. What are you thinking for 2021? Well, what we did, because there's no, you can't do contests this year, there's nothing. So we're basically gonna call it it's pretty much gonna be like a 2020 reboot. All of this year's contestants are being held over. So when, and I'm hoping that everything gets back to normal in March, it's starting to look more and more not likely and I'm hoping I'm wrong about that. But whenever we do decide to get back to this, all of the current class of 2020, they have committed at this time that they will compete for the Mr. Los Angeles Leather Contest. And we're just gonna hold them all over and roll them in and keep rolling them until we have a contest. All the different organizations have put this year's contest on pause. So we're just waiting. Yeah, I know many that are just gonna hunker down until we don't have a choice really. Right, right. Well, and it also is a detriment if you can't allow your title holder to go on to the IML or IMSL or whatever. It's not fair to them to say, oh yeah, it's, you know, you couldn't compete too bad, best of luck to you. That's not very nice. Nice. And the class of 2020, they've been able to bond over this too and they've developed those friendships. They're from everything I've been able to get, they're pretty close knit. And so they're all sticking together on this. They're all committed to wait. Good, good. Yeah, this is certainly a bad time, but hopefully another time will come. We just keep sitting back and saying, please somebody stop playing Jumanji. It's just, I was joking with some of my employees saying, okay, the next thing we're gonna see is the murder hornet zombies. That's next. Well, you'll see. I sure hope not. He was crying at this point, nothing. Yeah. But what advice can you offer people who are trying to enter the leather, the rubber, whatever community? Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. You never know what you're gonna find, what you're gonna see. The first time I went, well, the first time I went to a gay bar was scary, even though it was about as vanilla a bar as you'll ever get. I think that's why I chose to go there because it was safe. The first time I went to a leather bar, I was scared. I was half afraid and half hoping that somebody was gonna grab me and drag me into a back room and do all kinds of horrible things. Didn't happen. Damn it. But just, you've gotta step outside of your comfort zones once in a while. You're not, if you're gonna sit in the corner and be afraid or you've sit at home and say, God, I wish I really want to, it's not gonna happen. You've got to sometimes take those chances because you never know who you're gonna meet, what you're gonna find, how your life could change. And it may not even happen the first time you go there. You might go there and just be that fly on the wall for a night, but that's okay. Look and watch and see what's happening. See how people behave. See what they wear. Maybe you're not dressed appropriately. I won't say properly. Maybe you're not dressed for the bar that you're in and look at what they're wearing. If you're wearing a T-shirt and a sweater, you're probably not gonna have a lot of people talk to you in a leather bar. So next time, find yourself a pair of black shoes. They can still be sneakers, a pair of black jeans and a T-shirt, white T-shirt. You might get a little more attention. The more often you go, the more you see, you'll meet people. Don't be afraid to say hi. Cruising is still alive in the bars. It may not be the way it once was, but people still cruise and you never know what's gonna happen when you go there. So put yourself out there, take those risks and chances and you could end up here. Ha ha ha ha ha. Nose. Yep. What's the biggest misconception about you? Oh boy. I've thought about that. I know you had mentioned this that you were gonna ask it and I have thought and thought and thought and it is, I think, a lot of people think I've got this confidence and in a lot of ways, like a lot of people, I feel the same way that everybody does. I'm still a little bit scared and a little bit nervous and I wanna make sure people like me and they'll accept me and it's, yeah, there's always that scared little kid inside of all of us and I think no matter how confident you are or even appear, I have no problem getting up on stage and MCing and sometimes making a fool of myself up there but you're still always a little bit nervous. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes you just gotta get up there and show the confidence and inside you're going, oh shit, what am I doing? Well, Alan Stroke, thank you for participating in Inside Lother History of Fireside Chat. It's been a pleasure. I thank you for having me.