 All right, we are live Thank you for joining me Jimmy on a not a song of ice and fire alive I mean, it's still a bit because I feel like Any live I'm in is Abercrombie any live year it is a song of ice and fire So we decided to just like purposely talk about that. Yeah, it's still lightly about both, right? We had to combine them Yeah, and a bit of hop because that like creeps in Yeah, and she's kind of like the best of both worlds as we'll talk about at least I feel that way I feel I mean I go back and forth between like being like is Abercrombie a combo of Martin and hob or is hob a combo of Abercrombie and Martin or is Martin a combo of hob and Abercrombie there's a whole like Shadow realm of influences that we don't know right because people keep some of those things close to their chest But these three are in a lot of ways similar. You also don't even always know what influenced you like it's true Anyway, if you'd like to introduce yourself for anyone who doesn't know who you are Well for anyone who doesn't know I am Jimmy nuts and I'm from the fantasy network I do science fiction and fantasy reviews mostly fantasy And I also do a bi-weekly bookish podcast where I talk about nothing with a guest and it's a lot of fun And these are three of my favorite authors all three of these authors would be my top five for sure Yeah, that's why they this will they always come up. We're always comparing what we're reading to them So yeah, and I do feel like these are three of the authors that I know the most about I definitely think you know way more about Abercrombie than I do though You know more about Martin than I do so it's a good trade-off and we meet somewhere in the middle on hob Right, so that's perfect But that's why we always relate everything back to these authors like it's kind of a meme right but You you stick to what you know and I think these are three people that could very well be on like the Mount Rushmore of Modern-day fantasy and maybe of all time as well, especially for us So I think they're good benchmarks. I do Yeah, but I think that's also why I mean if we feel that way They also have a lot of similarities between each other Which is why we're like if you're gonna be great you have to be like them We keep comparing other people to them and saying they don't measure up and comparing them to each other and saying That's why they're great because they're all doing these things that are so great Yeah, you know, it's one of the cool things is is like they're so similar But the distinctions between them make them very easy to read in in you know Either one after the other at the same time because they're still very distinct in their own, right? So well, I think what's also true of them is that Even though we so often You and I and also I think people in general, you know lump them together compare them say if you like one You like the other but at no point if you picked up any of their books Would you if you like you didn't see the cover and you didn't know what it was Would you be like I can't tell if this is Hob or Martin or like they have very distinct authorial voices So, you know who you're reading as soon as you pick it up. Yes very much so especially I would say even the most so with Abercrombie What's on your shirt Jimmy? Oh, it's a Mon-mon cat shirt with a cat painting on stripes on another cat Pretty and and you felt this was appropriate for well Well, actually a bunch of my patrons bought this shirt. So then I also bought this shirt So it's kind of like a club. So you need to get one next Okay You should have told me before the live. I didn't know there was a dress code. I'm starting the cult. Yes Also, I just want you to know that every time I say your channel name in a video in my brain I'm like it is not work because when I play back myself like when I'm editing It sounds like I'm saying network and every time I'm like, I swear I was saying not work and I hear myself and it's sound I'm like he thinks that I don't know The actual name of his channel and I swear I do and I consciously I'm like not not not work I'm like Jimmy from the fantasy not work and it always sounds like network Yeah, you just have to you have to really pronunciate the first part I actually was work. I was gonna call it the fantasy network and then my friend who I was talking about He'd made all my graphics and stuff. He's like, no, just call it the network And I'm like that is no one will get it and everyone does so Yeah, I'm all yeah, I'll just call it the fantasy new work and make it like German And they'll know it's not that work. I like it. Also, I am shocked like I Stop reading hob 22 times and read Just give him one cycle I promise You can read maybe it'll bump off Hob and you'll be like me perennially rereading Abercrombie you could have This is this is cool because so many people like there's some people saying I haven't read any Abercrombie Some people say haven't read any hob yet. I mean, this could be a really cool opportunity to kind of Extend for them. Yeah, extend the hand across the aisles, right? And and maybe get people fired up to read something else because like I said I do think that the three of these have like a common Quality about about them, right? Yeah, and obviously I don't think you can ever guarantee that if you like one thing You're gonna like another but like I would very much surprise me Like if anyone is a fan of one of these authors that they would strongly dislike the other two like maybe you wouldn't love them all as much As you and I do maybe you would vastly prefer one to the other but There is so much like about what they're interested in doing in storytelling that overlaps that I Would truly be shocked if someone was like, I love Abercrombie and I cannot stand hop I'd be like really like what are you getting out of Abercrombie then like what is it you're reading him for is it that it's Stabby do you think he's an edgelord cuz he's not and you're not getting it. You don't actually like first law. I'm sorry It would surprise me if if There were a large amount of people that liked one of these and hated any of the others Maybe like not so much so that that would be fair But to to have a disdain for any of the three would would be interesting outside of a course, you know output Because I know everyone hates George now, but you know As far as actual talent is pretty great, which one book should you read as your single read? Well start with the blade itself and then I just keep going So how was the one they haven't read I'm looking and I Think I've seen more not Hobbes than not anything else. Well, I know Amanda's in so Beth says she DNF'd Martin Amanda is saying I knew Amanda did not like Joe Abercrombie maybe we can pull her back because I Going so I did some analysis For this show because this is a fun topic. I've been learning more here to tell everybody that if they only like one of These authors not the others. They're wrong But I do think like this conversation is really interesting just because of what it's about It's about writing right and what when you really start to dig in because I do think that you can pick these things up as you read But when you go back to certain things and you analyze sentence by sentence a Piece of a story you can see a lot of what the author is doing to make you feel the way you're feeling And I have to say of the three When I went to the piece that I decided to do analysis on for Abercrombie I was the most blown away because I forgot How good his prose is and Hopefully when we kind of dive in on it We can break it down in a way that people can see what he's doing and why we appreciate it so much And I think Abercrombie's prose Gets a little bit underrated because people believe that prose is only flowery lyrical prose That's the only but it's so much more than that. It's where you put your periods It's where you put the action and the verb, you know in a sentence. It's like it's not just more words It's the right words. It's the right words and it's how you structure your sentences There's a lot to the craft and prose is such a vast vast thing and I mean obviously I'm biased because Abercrombie of the three is my favorite But I do think of the three his prose is arguably the most artful like has those like quotes that you're just like Oh, the way you just oh that that sentence like the like double meanings and like wordplay you just did there Like I find that in in Hobbin and in Martin as well but I feel like Abercrombie takes great pleasure in like crafting sentences that have like Witty word combinations. Yeah, he also does an extraordinarily good job of picking his sentence legs depending on what he's Which characters voice he is trying to oh Yes, the the one common theme among all three of these authors is that their command over perspective choice is Extraordinarily strong and the character voices are very very very strong These would be people that you would probably share as examples of holding perspective all three are really great and all three do it in a very different way George has a very Expositiony type approach where as Abercrombie is very direct dialogue heavy and then Hobb is in the first person Which makes it a lot different, but they're all very very commanding with their perspective choices Yeah, and character voice. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, we're I mean So again, I would say Abercrombie is like the most we're like as soon as first sentence in a chapter Like okay, so I'm Glock. I'm in Glock's perspective like, you know, yeah immediately Well, actually the thing I did on the analog like when I went back and started looking Is actually I wanted to see because all three of these writers people considered to be very good character writers I would say in general, right I Want to kind of go over what each of them do for characters because I think that it's really important to look Why we think they're strong and I I also I mean in addition to I think it's also important Obviously, we're gonna be talking a lot of similarities But also like they're very different also and that doesn't mean that it's because like oh that's because you know He's really good at this and the other they're weaker at that. It's not necessarily that like they also have Different projects in mind and different approaches to things so they like the if you're gonna say Hobb is so similar to these two So should be should she be shelved in grimdark? No, I don't think she should and yet I still think she's very similar to Martin and Abercrombie who absolutely should be shelved in grimdark Yeah, and I think that So like with especially and I'll kind of focus on my Abercrombie first But he's constantly touted as a really great character writer and I think there's a lot of head nodding going on But people don't really think about like why is that? But I don't think it's so much that it's not so much We should acknowledge that he's a strong character writer, but it's also his character work is beyond Nuanced it's it's very compelling because he keeps theme and tone with the narrative in the world consistent with whatever perspective he's in and Abercrombie is a lot more blunt than the other two when it comes to a Martin and Hobb But that's because it's his style like he's very direct in his approach And it allows for Joe to flesh out other pieces around that character So he gets a lot of mileage out of his paragraphs And it sets a scene a scene setting can relay all of the characters demeanor in the first two paragraphs And it's pretty amazing and I think it's like one of the best examples of why his prose is really really good Well, so I mean, I think you kind of made me think of this and what you were saying that How so how it how does that you do great character work? Like so you say that they do you know What is the mechanism of that like what is it that makes it good? And I mean, I think you're absolutely right about Abercrombie But also it's not just you know having like dialogue of characters be really like distinct or anything like that There are so many pieces to that that are like adjacent to it that support the character worker doing and so the way in which they each Approach using other pieces to support their character work is not the same But they're all three good at finding ways to support their character work through things that are technically not Character work if that makes sense. So like yes, I think Abercrombie doesn't really do like I think so I think George R. R. Martin is able to deliver a lot of world building information in character dialogue and Also deliver like the fact that these characters would be either aware of this or not aware of this or interested in this or not interested in this Yeah, you're doing that and is like that's why the world building is delivered so organically because the character work is organic And they're like it's like a symbiotic relationship and Abercrombie well He does deliver a world building information through Dialogue but he does do that. I think more it's a case of like So for example, like the best example is like you don't really see the agriant described until Logan gets to the agriant because everyone who's already in the agriant wouldn't notice it because you live there, right? And so it's only when he shows up and is describing it to you in that sort of like othering way the way that like You know when you go to a foreign country and you're like, what is this? He's describing it and being like what the heck is this like Having the what the characters notice what they would pick up on what they would talk about is like a lot of and so you get a description of the world that way But mostly you have a dude like it's how Logan is approaching it and being befuddled by it and baffled by what he is seeing That's mainly Logan's character development, but you're also over the first time getting your description of what this place actually looks like Yeah, and that's that's productive writing. That's very productive writing. It doesn't take a break really from The pace right or the narrative it can it's all kind of blended in And he does this with his introduction of Glotka actually is it okay if I read the introduction of Glotka? Is that cool? I'm not the best. You don't have to ask for mission to talk about Glotka Listen, I'm no Pacey, but I want to read this and I'd require you to do a lisp. I can't But if you listen to this introduction folks I really think you can hear and see what kind of the point of Leanna Just made is how much mileage he gets out of these two paragraphs and they're very short But why do I do this in quiz or Glotka asked himself for the thousand times as he limped down the corridor the walls Rendered and whitewash though none too recently. There was a seedy feel to the place and the smell of damp There were no windows as the hallway was deep beneath the ground the lanterns cast slow flowing shadows into every corner Why would anyone want to do this? Glotka's walking made a steady rhythm on the grimy tiles of the floor First the confident click of his right heel then the tap of his cane Then the endless sliding of his left foot with the similar stabbing pains in the in the ankle knee Ass and back click tap pain. That was the rhythm of his walking. So Whereas a lot of people would slowly reveal these things We know Glotka is now an inquisitor. This is the first time he ever shows up. He's an inquisitor. He's crippled He is having a really tough time getting around But this is the this is the cool part the walls were rendered and whitewashed though none too recently A little bit broken down a little bit dreary There was a seedy feel to the place and a smell of damp. There were no windows We're getting very much a different tone from the prologue, right? This is a very closed in space very dark Um, it says, you know grimy tiles on the floor. So he's describing all these things through the mind of Glotka and even just the fact that instead of going on and on and on And I mean he does have long internal monologues later for sure But just saying why do I do this like you don't you already know? He's like disgruntled upset like doesn't like his job is clearly not his passion Like you know so much just from the fact that his introduction is why do I do this? Click tap pain like you already know so much about glocks up Yes, and and the atmosphere described around him If you think about it in galakas respect that this is a guy who is very gloomy This guy does not look at the bright side of things at all. He noticed every single negative detail About the world around nitpickery Yeah, and this is very different uh from martin and hob because hob is really really big on about Dialogue um, and it's generally due because of fits his first person perspective Although even in life ship traders, there's a lot of dialogue. Absolutely And through those uh, you get characters introduced usually say how they react to a certain situation Like buritch is introduced and I think he's arguing with um, a guy named jason, I think and he uh Jason is basically questioning chivalry's worth He's showing off fits saying you have to take care of him because you were chivalry's man Chivalry, you know could never have an air and now he has a bastard But we learn a lot about buritch on the way he responds in front of fits And he goes kind of at jason and he's like what are you talking to me talking to me? Um, but all this is through the eyes of fits which demands a very strong hand on the perspective And hob is one of the very best at it. Erickson, uh said during the interview I had with him that when he teaches workshops He uses hob as a example Of holding perspective. He thinks that she's like just absolutely terrific Um, and I I would agree especially after reading this passage that I was looking at today Um, she doesn't give us like a ton of information, but if you look back On the way puritch is introduced through fits his eyes It actually says a lot Says a lot about uh, because it says his eyes met mine. There there was a cert of wildness In them as if what he saw in my face were an injury I had done to him I started to draw away from that look but his grip wouldn't let me go So I stared back at him with as much defiance as I could muster and saw his upset mass suddenly with a sort of reluctant wonder And lastly he closed his eyes for a second hooding them against some pain It's a thing that will try her lady's will to the edge of her very name birch said softly That is a really good introduction to birch because of the wildness in his eyes Uh and things that we end up learning about birch down the road, but also This kind of sets up the entire tone for fits in birch's relationship and farce here Yeah, for sure. Well, I also This made me think of another thing they all three do well And that is delivering information to the reader Even if the characters that you're reading from aren't picking that up Yeah, so like just because your pov character is either like too distracted or too dumb Or like not putting those pieces together That doesn't mean that you the reader can't be delivered that information So there is I mean fits is your only pov for all of the farce of your trilogy There's so much information that you have the fits doesn't even though he's your only ass on this world Because like she's putting information there that he is not picking up and you are Yes, and reading between the lines is very big in that series And another thing I really enjoy about hob is that you're not always supposed to agree with fits And that is another really good example of having a commanding hand in perspective Well, I mean that could be said again for all three where like they are all three like perfect examples of You can write a character and there's a difference between portraying and condoning And like when people talk about reading a book And I do that as well when you talk about a book and you're like this came off really misogynistic This came off really sexist like well, that's just the character and I'm like I'm sorry But there's a difference and you can tell like when I read about gizelle at no point Do I think that abracame thinks this is fine? And also it's not because gizelle is sitting there introspecting and be like am I the baddie like no Like he thinks what he's doing is fine And we're in his perspective and yet I never doubt that abracame does not think that's fine And the same is true when I read a song of rice and fire the same is true Like I mean fits isn't a gizelle, but like yeah as you say like fits does things That I know I'm not meant to agree with or approve of or or whatever and it's not because The author had to come out and say See that that was bad like you don't have to do that But there's also a difference between showing a character being a character And still writing it in a way where you're it's clear that this is not necessarily meant to be a good thing or Yeah, a lot of times they let it read you You know and how you react to it Likely says more about you than the than the character And I think those are the best questions that an author can pose through characters is Um, the ones that don't necessarily need to be answered in the in the narrative Often the questions that you don't answer are much more intriguing like And I think that's again all three of them are really good at doing that where I tend to dislike fantasy books That feel a need to answer every question that tell you everything about the world building everything about the history Everything about everything because they've thought of everything and by golly. They are gonna tell you Everything that they have figured out for their own world and I'm like, I'm really proud of you And I'm really happy for you, but this makes it feel fake Because you've like this is the box of the world and there's nothing unknown And there's nothing further to explore because you've told me these are the rules and this is the history and like no Like even when I asked Abercrombie like if you'd ever do a prequel type stuff, you know, like Go back, you know other ages of the world and he was like, why Like why would I do that? And I was like, I don't know, you know to see if The things we've heard are true or whatever and he's like, but would that make it better? Wouldn't that ruin it if you went back and you saw Either that it was or it wasn't or whatever like what would be the point of that? Isn't it so much more interesting that you don't know that I was like, yeah Sorry, I asked don't do a prequel Also a room for speculation is a very good key to growing a fandom Um, it's actually one of the things about a song of ice and fire that is alive Yeah, that's amazing But also uh things I think people have gotten a little unruly with expecting every single little thing to be answered if if or wherever to be finished Um And I think people are have lost sense of what is realistic Um, like we don't have to have every little thing confirmed And it would be kind of crappy if it was that is correct But you know when you have 10 years a lot of people get pet theories and things and they say, uh, this is the one thing I need, you know Which might not be all that important for the overall narrative So and it is interesting to know sometimes if an author in an interview says that well It's not ever confirmed in the books but in their head like head canon is like that. That's the case Um, but if there's no like for example, if you have a character who knows a thing That and only they know it and they die Then there's no actual way for your story unless you have some like deos ex machina like You know magic reason why this information gets to be known Like it just sometimes knowledge dies with people and that makes the world feel more real That this never gets known or confirmed because the one person that knew it died before they could share it And that's just how I be sometimes and that knowledge got lost Yeah, and uh, sometimes you don't have the big heroic last words on the on the pyre Usually you don't yeah, we get 90 of the time you don't and all three of these authors definitely go with that route. I think There's a lot more real Realistic I I don't like using that word. You have to be realistic. Have to be realistic But yeah, and we kind of talked about hob and joe's approach to characters And and when we were talking earlier about, you know, what do you know in what perspective? I think that's where george shines the most Information is george's strong suit, which is why He is not afraid to go into exposition Uh, but his exposition through his characters is valuable because he scopes it to that perspective It's not a big dump of you know Someone who shouldn't know something knowing all or saying. Oh, of course, you know Or someone who wouldn't be noticing those things like, you know, if you have a young character or a poor character Or a dumb character like and you're they have eyes on something, but they wouldn't understand it then they don't yeah, and One of the times where george does this really really well is actually tyrian's introduction into the series because he's introduced in ned's pov And ned is about to meet robert, right and these aren't spoilers folks. Um, this happens like first chapters But ned is thinking about king robert and the news that he's received about john erin And he almost looks as tyrian is like kind of the joke like he's like a side thing I like oh, there's the imp walking behind like the king's camp who cares Um And it's all through ned's pov So we see that and you would think if you just read that you would say oh that tyrian's not a big deal But we see something totally different from john's pov when john leaves the feast and then tyrian does the tumble Off and we see that it makes a ghost back up And say oh like this this this dwarf is is a big deal different very menacing And also we get to actually hear some really good tyrian dialogue as well That's like one of the best exchanges in the first book but it's very much in line with germ style and Is a launching point to understanding all of the story and history that he wants to build is that Different perspectives throughout history are going to give you different Interpretations and who is a good guy and who is the bad guy? And that is definitely the best part in my opinion of uh, george's character work So like in the same vein but also a very different version of what you're talking about because like again, one of my favorite things is When you get you know Differing reports on things and I think in a one of our song vice and pirate chats we when I talked about Potentially one of the reasons why I feel less interested in denari's part of the story A lot of the time is because we don't have differing reports about what's going on there We only have her and so like as as interesting as that can be It's always more interesting when I have like a lot of different perspectives on the same place in time so like if I had more eyes on that telling me Maybe the same but also conflicting things but um, but point the point I was actually going to make is that uh Like the part um, this is uh, I'll make it non-spoilery So there's a convergence of perspectives that stays together for a large chunk of before they are hanged the second book of the first Autology and like these perspectives you get them all and they're all like in the same place And they're all seeing each other and you constantly flip between them And you hear their perspectives on what's happening and on each other And when I was talking to bethany about it I likened it to like one of those like one room plays like in in theater when like The story of the play happens in one room Where just people are just talking and the story unfolds from there for like this entire play And that's kind of what it's like like these characters and how their per Their dynamics are changing their knowledge of what's happening is changing They have very different ideas of each other of what's happening of what they want out of it And how that morphs and changes and like stuff happens like along the way But there's not really that much stuff happening. What the stuff that is happening is their interactions with each other yeah Yeah, Abercrombie's convergences of uh, povs and characters is always interesting too because I You want to know what glotka thinks of somebody and then he finally meets them and you're like, oh You know the fact that you know that he's gonna have individual thoughts that aren't just Kind of you know laid out among all of the povs. Oh, we all know that jazelle was a great night You know, not so much like this guy's a dingus. This guy's a boob so um Scott scott actually said something. Uh, I love when cersei interior talking in clash paraphrase cersei I didn't think of that father did Cersei is a great example Of not just trusting a pov when they talk because I'm gonna be honest years and years ago when I first read a song of ice and fire I thought cersei was a schemer and a genius She is a schemer. That is actually she is a schemer. It's whether she's good at it Not a great one. Um, but when I first read through these books, I'll be honest I thought she was like, I was like, oh, she's great at the game of thrones Da da da da da and then you reread and you go where she had you fooled. Yeah, you're like She's an idiot. You can't trust her when she when she has these thoughts, you know She doesn't make all the great the best moves That's another example of like showing you things That the character whose head you're in isn't seeing but you are seeing Like the stuff that cersei sees around her and is thinking about and is encountering Her take on it you as the reader are like, okay No, it's not what I got out of that and that's how humans are I mean we me and you could read the same headline and feel very differently about it, right But I feel like a lot of books like take, I don't know They make the mistake of filtering everything too much through the character and I mean like I feel like I said I'm contradicting myself because filtering everything the character Is what makes it a good character POV and voice but at the same time Like you can sneakily Convey information that is like in direct opposition to what this character notices thinks or feels And still have the reader see it and be like, oh, you are wrong Yes and ketchup and hobb does this very well with a scene in the very first book She does it with a An entire character dynamic in the second and third books where you are like, I know what's happening And you don't that's really obvious Yeah, the restriction of information is something that I think that uh, martin and hobb do extraordinarily well Martin set it up interestingly enough through sending a raven That that is kind of a big deal, right and and sending the notes to the air because you can actually tell Information doesn't travel very fast in this world. So sometimes you get into a few season eight and then Well, that's why that's why we're talking strictly about the source material But yeah, I I think the restriction of information Is a really fun thing to play with as an author but a lot of people don't do it And another thing that a lot of authors don't do that these three definitely do Is letting Things fail Obviously This happens before they are hanged But this also is the most obvious one who's like intentionally doing that Yeah, and most of the drama in these books come from our characters messing up Yeah fits is always making bad decisions Um Martin a lot of the drama and things that catapult this into a Disaster for these characters is the fact that someone was overconfident in their skills or Or, um, you know, they messed up that made the wrong decision trust the wrong person And then like I said abracromby is all about making his characters mess up And getting diverted on a trip or such I know you haven't read the king killer chronicle yet But both is kind of like if fits was an arrogant prodigy. Oh my But like suffers just as much and makes just as many poor decisions And there are a lot of authors that do do these things by the way So like I don't want anyone to think that we're just saying only these three can do these things You know, I know I think christopher occhio does this also extraordinarily well I think erickson does this very well. There's there's there's probably a Thousand more but I'm gonna say when we were talking about character perspectives on other characters that was To bring in a different author Um, every time I've met pierce brown, he always asks, who's your favorite character? Like when you like go up to like shakes hand, he's like, hey, you know, great for coming Like who's your favorite character? And like I'd met him so many times and always like that's like a thing He asks and I was like, I don't have a favorite character Like I can't answer that and so then like with the new books the second trilogy It is no longer just darrow's perspective. It is multi pov And so for the first time you see darrow through someone else's eyes It's not darrow on darrow thinking about darrow being darrow Like not only do you see something else which is refreshing but you get to see darrow Through somebody else's eyes and that's never happened before so I told him I was like, I don't have a favorite character But I loved seeing darrow through someone else's eyes now for the first time Yeah, um because that is so Having different perspectives on a character on an event a situation a place whatever like that really flushes out your world when like You get different Perspectives on things, you know, it's even you know, it's another like kind of shade of that is when you never get a pov from a character Like a character remains almost a mystery A really good example of this would be the fact that we never get a true like stannis pov And a song by some fire we see stannis from the people around him And we and I think we actually get a really good indication of like how he's viewed by the people But there are definitely times where I would have loved to see in the mental turmoil Inside of stannis's head, but keeping that at a distance Is actually more beneficial In a lot of ways. I think this is kind of the same case with like robber baratheon um tywin Ty bias bias would definitely be one for first law, right? I don't want I mean I would love to see inside bias's head, but it's it's almost more mysterious Yeah, what's the same answer as like why you wouldn't write a prequel? You're like it's it's you want to know but you only want to know because you don't know and if you did know you wouldn't care Yeah, there's even a line about that That gloctus says in uh in the third book and this isn't spoilery It's just him reflecting on like how he feels about this that um when he gets like some reveals and discovers the answers to some of his questions He's like Ah, and it's like it's like a letdown and he's like answers are boring though. It's questions Questions are interesting. I was like, yeah, you're not wrong because the answer is always like there's so many possibilities with a question Is it you is it you is it this is it that will it be this will it be that are you connected to this when you get the answer? You're like, I mean, yeah, that that checks out But that's it. Okay. Kind of reminds me of a hob quote In one of the books where she says uh death is I think it's hob. I hope I hope I'm right. I might be wrong. Derek will tell me if I'm wrong But uh that death isn't that the opposite of life, but death is just the end of being able to make choices It's like Yeah, and I mean I I made a set earlier You know the abacame is like the better word player, but they're absolutely quotable quotes and all three They are all great wordsmiths. Oh, definitely I I think they're three of the most quotable authors megan says the fool was my all-time favorite character But I never won a chapter from his perspective. Yes. This is a great. That's a phenomenal example Someone said rake and malas and that's another one Wasn't saying none of the three ever make the mistake that like disney made of like making jack sparrow the main character Because they all three realize that these characters work On the side because you don't know what they're doing You don't know what they're thinking and it's and you want to know But like that's what makes it good is that you want to know Yes, it's the answer to that is like well, they say they want to know so I should write what you know Because we don't actually want to know like once we know we won't be into it yeah, and That that is definitely like whenever I've attempted to write that's always been like a really difficult thing is like Not giving all the information away and I think uh, george martin gets a lot of crap for doing exposition History, uh, kind of lore paragraphs But he doesn't do it as in but he's still very organic and how he delivers most of his world building Yeah, and I do feel like it has a rich historical feel to it Where you know it is exposition, but one thing that I hear all the time is oh this had a big block of exposition That isn't a bad thing You can do it properly. You can do it. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It can't be Just like a deus ex machina that can be a bad thing It does it can actually be done. Well, I think you and I talked about this in a song of ice and fire alive about how like There is no thing that you should never do There's a lot of things that are like they go Badly more often than not so like people would that's why people say don't do it because like pulling it off is harder But there's nothing that could never be pulled off by the right author. Yes Absolutely, and uh, those kind of conventions are important to to push on the boundaries um Yeah, martin feels like historical fiction that happens to be fantasy. I I am starting to see Uh people love just like ret conning george out of existence for some reason But people I've actually seen people saying this and matt I know you're not saying this just to be clear But I've seen a new detractors from george say he actually doesn't even write fantasy He actually just copied. Well, they're probably the same people that say it's actually not grimdark and you're like Sure, even sure It's also just silly because I mean we we've now reread the first five and I think we almost went You know two to three hours on each book and if you really look into those Uh, you can see that there's a lot more than the parallel to history. Oh, you still this it's it's a little disingenuous To say I mean you can make the same case for abercrombie especially in the age of madness He's obviously pulling from the industrial revolution and the french revolution So like you find then he's a hack too who's just Rewriting and to pretend that there isn't a lot Of of inventive things around that is ridiculous and you know people say well someone else had actually uh done You know this kind of thing where characters were in danger like that's been done before and it's like Sure, but it's still really good Like I I know that there are other authors that have attempted this thing prior But there has to be a reason why it resonated with the zeitgeist like it did. Yeah and actually, um I think when we were talking about like why The out of the three the one that gets the like award for character work all the time that People expressly call that out or say he's the best out. I mean I say it all the time too And but I also think the other two are good at it But they don't quite get that accolade specifically as often And I think they're of the three if they're you know the weak point of abercrombie If this is something that you're interested in he doesn't actually care that much about like lower building Like he is not what somebody's doing and so like when it comes to like what you are like Delving and when you're picking it apart and when you're analyzing and discussing it Like we've spent three hours on each song advice and fire book. Yes talking about character work. No doubt But also being like what does this mean for the magic? What does this mean for the world? Is this secretly this and is this gonna amount to this and with abercrombie? Let's not to say there's none of that But like he's even with that stuff. He's more interested in just like throwing out a question that'll never be answered to make you go Oh, I wonder what that is that I'll never know I would even say that abercrombie at least to the new trilogy kind of felt predictable and I don't mean that in a negative sense Um Every single thing I thought would happen in the third book happened and I was it made it made sense Yeah, and I mean in that sense too. Um, and the George R. Martin is I think famous for saying something I mean I'm gonna paraphrase but like if you wrote your story that the butler did it And then you see online that someone figured out that the butler did it You don't suddenly make it that the maid did it because everything you wrote is setting up that the butler did it so the butler did it like So I think like there's the it's satisfying if you did piece something together and then it ends up being that it's not like Oh, they guessed it can't be that why not like no clues there We figured out reward the fact that we figured it out Predictable is actually a good thing and I think the reason to an extent or it can be a good thing Can't be that for sure You're writing just a thriller that's like entirely just a thriller and you're like I saw the answer on the first page I mean, that's probably not probably not doing the genre any justice, right? Um I think also when you look back a lot of the big oh my god moments for me in realm of the elderlings and the song of ice and fire If I go back and read again You can see how it's piecing out and you go. How did I not see this happening? Nothing else could have happened like this is the only real outcome. Maybe I just didn't want to see it So I definitely don't think that that's even exclusive to joe But you like you said joe has a lot less going around the events, right? There's not a lot of war exposition when you're like So it's just you know, I'm excited for the day that I'm rereading realm of the elderlings with uh now that I know Like I'm excited about that But I obviously have that already for Abercrombie And the thing is like it's It is only I guess a bit to do with some like lore and magic, but it's not It's more about character motivations being unclear And then you later like now that you know where everything went the thing that you are piecing together isn't like The magic of the world and how it connects It's like what everybody was up to And like what they were when they were saying things and meaning something else And when they said a throwaway thing that you're like, what does that mean and then you later figure it out And like it's not what does that mean because it's a magical mystical prophecy It's because you know, it's it's it's always character focused and I think again That's why he gets that he's the best at character where accolade because that's the thing He's most interested in and like magic is like also there Like that's not really what he cares about And all three of these would be considered low magic for the most part. Um, The especially compared to a lot more of the modern stuff, right? Actually age of madness is higher magic than almost any other Abercrombie before Yeah, that's true Because one of your main pov characters is a magic user Yeah, and they do both feel or all three kind of feel Like it's well, I would say an age of madness It's actually supposedly going out of style, right? Like that's kind of the theme But they all kind of is fading from the world. Yes always isn't all of these stories back in the day There used to be wizards of plenty But it's interesting because realm of the outerlings is almost like Not not even a resurgence, but we've lost a lot of the information that let us know how this is supposed to work And that's why they you know, they have I can't spoil anything, but there's masters right and all these things But and also the red comet in a song of ice and fire signifies magic coming back into the world So I think it's interesting as a human in our world reading a story where magic is kind of coming back or Being used more because it's a little bit easier to Suspend your belief because there's a reason so many books have the magic is gone And we're trying to find it again because if magic's around all the time, what's your story about like? Yeah, it's of course that's a people make fun of it, but there's a reason it's like that But um, I think this is an interesting parallel I don't you'll have to tell me that's true for hop as well But both martin and abracame are heavily influenced by film And so like not to say that that is the reason that we find similarity in their writing But there, you know and like one of before I've identified specific character types or Beats or plot lines in first law that I'm like I know you are a fan of a song of ice fire and this kind of reminds me of a song of ice and fire That's not to say you're copying it But you some some of it might be directly influenced by it But you too like there's a reason joe abracame resonated so much with a song of ice and fire because they are Kindred spirits like minded interested in similar things like they're both history buffs They both like writing grim dark people with grim dark mode like they Think similarly so there's going to be similarity even if they're not directly influenced by each other or they are directly Influenced but anyway the film thing Also is like another late like they're both interested in film and like have worked in film And that I think people have talked about their writing feeling cinematic or being influenced by that and That's a similarity. Yeah, I think I think that those two definitely have more of a cinematic Episodic touch in some ways like at the close of chapters and things like this Like you can see very clear episode endings, but I do not think hop is actually I was gonna say last night When tomorrow and I were talking about hav and we were talking about so should it be adapted? Could it be adapted and I was like could it? I mean Yes But I feel like the odds of it going badly are so high because like it could be done But like Fitz talking to night eyes could be like, I don't know how you don't I think live is what you adapt But even then like the ship talking ships could be so Thomas the tank engine if you do it badly And like we had we had talking trees and Lord of the Rings And so I'm saying like if you have a good showrunner a good creative director if you have the right CGI But if you don't it could look super dumb that I mean anything could be bad, right? I mean, there's nothing in first law that's like that where like This is gonna be a weird magic thing that looks really stupid because it's so low magic That like you basically just have to have like armor swords and a good amount of like fake blood budget I need a lot of no, uh first laws Uh hurdle will be being compared to game of thrones like every fantasy but even more so because There is a and and actually I I've never asked you this so I'm gonna ask you now Um for talking about how similar these authors are I don't find A song of ice and fire in first law to be as connected as everyone else does like there's clearly similarities But like for instance people think I hope Joe finishes the series and in my head I'm like I hope he does not because Joe Abercrombie has way too strong of an authorial voice To go and work in someone else's world And I mean I I think we talked about you know like for one stop asking people to finish George or martin series He's alive and he doesn't want anyone to do this. So stop it pretty rude But okay, if we are gonna talk about that which we shouldn't but okay if we are I mean This would be highly imperfect But hob would be a better candidate like for it than Abercrombie because The types of like heavy slow patient lower and world building That martin is doing is more akin to hob. Abercrombie is just does not care about that in terms of his own writing Like I find I agree with you. I find hob and george to be closer than Abercrombie to either the other two actually Yeah, well, I feel like uh, if I I guess if I was gonna put one That's why I keep going back and forth like who do I connect to who because like I do think I don't know because I think They're similar to each other for different reasons, you know Yes, so then if like it depends on what we're talking about I'll be like, oh, these two are the same and this one's not and then we're talking about something Well, these two are the same and this one's not so like automatically I think george and joe were very close and I think the character work of hob and abercrombie are very close Like I think the distinct like not that martin's bad at it But like they are both stronger in that than martin. I think yeah So, yeah, I think that hob and joe are very similar in their craft Now when you they write they're very different But they they know their sentences are very direct And they both can say a lot with saying a little which is a very important skill to have If you're going to write some fantasy books, I think I wish more people had that ability So I find hob and joe's writing to be more similar Than martin and anyone else if I was I feel like people have leveled this criticism at both hob and abercrombie and Much less so to martin saying that like oh, you just have to push through because once you get through it It makes sense and it rewards you and it pays off But you just have to like get through all of the where is this going like obviously abercrombie gets that a lot but also like when people talk about assassin's quest and about like Just like I feel like that is a thing people say that like oh it drags and like nothing's happening and like Why is it taking so long or anything to happen? And and everyone's like oh just like you have to like just bear with it because Which drives me it's gene by the way. I just want to put that out But I feel like people don't say that specifically about george r martin so much No, I think people's Bigger issue with george is the approach And also isn't finished yet. So no one could be like wait till you get to the end I mean, I think george is a lot more akin to the older him and hob do do this a lot But they're more akin to a day before modern fantasy I was saying out of the three abercrombie. Well, I think he is also the youngest like just in age But he also feels the newest like most modern in his storytelling the other two feel a little bit more like He was very much a a new gen like what they said they said oh song by some fires big We need something new and sexier and this was the thing now. I don't mean that Some people hear I was gonna say and before they were hanged do we I is that sexy? No doubt I think that that was the appropriate void to be filled You know and and right now right brandon sanderson's the number one selling author and fantasy If you don't count sarah j mass And They're looking for the next brandon sanderson. That's a little different more digestible probably a little shorter But we still want that that really interesting magic and stuff like that So these trends happen ever crombie was and brandon sanderson is kind of writing the coattails of what marvel did with the Shared connected epic huge big magic universe. Yes I mean that thing goes all the way back to azimov because that's actually who Who he first saw do an interconnected universe because the robots and foundation are connect spoiler I guess if you haven't read those um, but not really but that was uh, what kind of inspired him So it goes even further back Um to that I don't think people realize they like to interconnected universes in the in the zeitgeist until marvel though or also, I mean just the That you would have so many different things that are all connected in ways that people would have to put together and pay attention to Like I don't think people realize that a general audience has the Bandwidth and interest to do that until marvel did it where it's like a very mainstream thing Where people are putting the pieces together with all these separate movies how they're actually connected and how it all Does eventually come together where like worlds collide and that like, you know, nerd culture became mainstream So like having a shared universe like the cosmere like I don't think anyone would have thought that that was like Viable in terms of like wide market success before marvel did that and was like the average joe is excited to see Like the epic shared universe coming together We followed each movie and all of the after-credits scenes and pieced it together like the average joe can be interested in that Yeah, and I know absolutely But yeah, I mean that's why if you it's possible to have uh, a theory is what's coming next video or chat about brandon sanderson also about a song of ice and fire A bit for hob. I've definitely like engaged in speculation and like is this mean and will this ghost here and what we're gonna see um Whereas with Abercrombie like I've never ever wanted to do like a predictions Like thing because I'm just like, I don't know. It's gonna be people being shitty and that'll you know resolve itself in whatever way Lord grim dark seas like it's not like that kind of thing Well, yeah, and and let's be honest because of the lack of kind of rounded out war around the things the speculation can only be So much there's only so much to do Well, there's also the fact that like I'm fairly confident that it's not a thing that's being set up that will get answered I will be very surprised if it does get answered. Yeah, I saw a lot of people have like really high hopes for some of um I mean to keep it spoiler free like maker type things Uh to happen and I was just like that's not it's never gonna happen It's never gonna happen It actually would be bad if it had because in fact it's also not gonna happen just because joe abercrombie himself is like I don't know Yeah, I think if we picked one person out of all of them for worldbuilding, I think george is probably The the the one that I would pick Though I do think that the other two have really interesting strengths that are different than a lot of other places like joe's world Actually evolving over time instead of just sitting in a medieval Space is one of my favorite things in fantasy and hob her slow unveiling of magic throughout her series And still leaving it up to the reader to kind of figure things out is amazing I really love it, but I do think also I do think she and martin kind of share like that like the idea that like This is where again, like if we're doing read a likes between the three like if the thing that you love is this like slow drip drab of like pieces of information about magic that are still nebulous and unclear and still makes the world feel like Unknown it's not like a oh this is like Yeah, okay Everyone knows that like I tend not to like sanderson books and like if you are the type of reader that likes a puzzle Because that's how it seems like it doesn't seem like a world that i'm learning about it seems like because you know He's going to tell you the answer and it'll be a big twist and there'll be this like big epic climax Where like all of these pieces that he teased before are going to be clues that come together In like, you know for most people's satisfying way for me. I'm just like I hate puzzles So like I mean that's what it feels like and if that's what you want is like find the pieces put it together Here's the answer and like there's craft to that not to say there isn't I like that like there are some pieces and I can think that maybe that'll get answered and some of it does get answered But some of it's still unknown. Like I love that so Yeah, absolutely And I I like puzzles. Um, I I like especially I like to store my books um, but I am definitely a little bit more Intuned with This type of fantasy. I actually like low fantasy. Like I'm just a really big fan. I really like historical fiction Uh, george definitely takes like inspiration from historical fiction, which I really like and that's why he can write Uh history books about his series. Like I think people kind of undervalue how much work has been put into the world building well, honestly, I mean when people talk about, you know, tolkien being like A watershed moment for fantasy and then george r martin being kind of the next watershed moment for fantasy And I think it's no accident that both of them like the kind of like Just outside of the book world development that they both did like tolkien invented middle earth and was like I may as well tell some stories in this world that I invented language for You know, like that was like the stories were like an afterthought and with george r martin like it's like It's clear that like he has this intense well Of like just just knowledge just for himself that like he has the history of this world And if he needs to he can draw on it But he doesn't need to find a reason to squeeze in every single thing He's figured out about his world into the book because he thought of it So some character is going to tell you about it at some point because he thought of it And you're like I have it I know the history of my world and if it comes up if it becomes relevant if I need to draw on that Then there's this like well of like genuine history of the world to like bring into it Yeah, and I think that That is why These three authors, especially george and robin hop They can take their time and breathe a little bit and I like I always I say this all the time It's it's actually kind of the mock people and they don't realize it, but I say I love boring books You know I don't think they're boring at all or like People talk about like meandering books. I'm like as long as what you're doing is as um When I first read king killer chronicle When like I was the first I was still reading name of the wind for the first time I hadn't even finished it and I was like I knew this was an all-time favorite because I was like nothing has happened But those were the best 50 pages of nothing that I've ever read Yeah, and when we say nothing things are actually like there are there's a reason why the author wrote the words It just might not be the biggest narrative thrust Yeah, but like in an outline for plot events nothing happened and like nothing moved forward in like those 50 pages in that sense And so by the same time like if you know what you're doing Like if you are interested in developing your characters in a way that makes them feel believable and developing your worlds in a way that makes it feel believable You can't just have you can't like skip to the good part well And who's to say that that character building for that 50 pages doesn't pay off in a huge narrative thrust in The final book or something like that Well, so character building is the thing that makes you care in those epic moments Like you can't just write the epic moments because I don't care about a big war If I'm not already like super invested in the characters that are in the war So like if you just skipped to the big battle I'm like, that's why I hate when books do the cinema thing of opening on a battle sequence and I'm like At least in a movie it is visually impressive to see a chase sequence or a battle when I have no emotional stakes in this yet But I'm like, well that sure does look cool. So you have my attention But in a book I can't even look at anything. So I'm like why Yeah I'll be honest with you like and this is kind of a side tangent. This is why like I don't know if Like breaking a book up and then discussing it in parts is actually all that productive Because I see this all the time with pretty holistic if it's good Yeah, so for instance, let's take our song by some fire reread right If we were all first timers me and alex and we get into a game thrones and we do a live stream every 12 chapters or something And you say, yeah, first 12 chops are good. I mean it's a little slow like nothing's happening But like we know now Finishing the book why all that stuff ends up paying off and why like the john erin letter such a big deal And maybe sometimes it's even like three or four books down the road whenever you're dealing with a big series um And it kind of like builds this interpersonal narrative that it's a boring book or it's meandering and it's like well No, you just haven't got to the part where it matters yet So I I like the way we did our read-along much better Then people coming together too and you're not biased Well, of course not but I actually think this uh, so we just did a read-along on alan's uh discord that went very poorly Um, not not like structured life, but like few didn't like the book Yeah, alan sucks. We hate of course But the book and I do think the book has a ton of problems But I think that people tuned in and people said uh nothing happened in the first 30 chapters and people just said Yeah, nothing happened the first 30 chapters but Maybe it pays off in book two Maybe it pays off at the end like why not come together at the end of The completed work and talk about the work as a whole I guess that's what i'm trying to say is like I think a lot of the meandering talk that comes especially for like Uh hob and martin is just the fact that people Are not finishing the book like you I don't know I think finishing the book is really important Personally, what's what I mean my people always give me grief for the fact that I don't dnf um And like I'm trying to do it more this year because like sometimes like Into writing is just bad and you're like there is there's no there's nothing's gonna save this I don't care if there's like a great ending because the prose is awful and I hate this and like that's not going to change So like why am I forcing myself to read this just to read it? So like there are times when I'm like, okay Like I really should just dnf because like there's no point to finishing this But most of the time I hate dnf and things because well one there's a lot to be learned from reading a bad book like even if That is your end opinion Like I don't I don't really ever feel or it's rare that I feel like I wasted my time reading it Because like I learned something about writing craft. I learned something about myself as a reader I learned something about you know, how what not to write like and about like what I need to be wary of like when I go Now I know something about like to avoid and when I see that in other books I'm like, ah, that's gonna be like that I shouldn't pick that up. So I just Yeah to and and sometimes it does have like A brilliant ending that doesn't necessarily save a book because it's valid to say I shouldn't have had to slog to get here Yeah, sometimes it doesn't feel like it's a justified payoff But I think there's also a bigger problem is like people will say things actually uh, matt said was that age of ash? That wasn't that was um, brian staveley's first book that wasn't very good. Um, nice guy though But um, no actually abraham is a really good example because abraham has book ones that are really slow And everyone always hates his book one and the problem with this is Then they read book two book three book four and they never reconsider book one But if you do take the time to reconsider you go Oh That wasn't a slog. That was the foundation Oh, that made all this make sense And it's just like that attitude You know what i'm saying like whenever you start reading a book and you check in halfway with everyone doing the read along And you say it's boring But you don't reassess it at the end and think well, all right So was it boring or did I miss something and i'm not always saying blame the reader. I mean some books are just not Not that interesting and i'm with you. I don't dnf very much I'm trying to do a little bit more because I think I have my taste pretty ironed out But i'll give mostly anything the full opportunity to impress me. I mean I also just hate having to qualify every statement like maybe by the end Maybe at the end maybe later like I don't want to have to say that I read the whole thing and it was terrible, but never got fixed and it was awful. Like I just don't want to have to Leave that asterisk all the time. So there's another reason why as a reviewer. I don't dnf If I also if I dnf something I don't I don't even I usually don't talk about it I mean I might say hey i dnf this but like I don't leave like a rating on good reads for it Yeah, which is like that was another reason I was never dnfing because I'm like I spent time on this I wanted to count so Was my new rule for myself this year is like I will dnf something or like I will still allow myself to rate it if I got to 75 or later and I was just like this is not getting better And it's not going to get better and I can rate this um I guess I haven't done that yet this year, but I've given myself permission to I think all this is to say that we don't find these books meandering At all and I know uh, we talked about a feast for crows already But a feast for crows is notorious for being everyone's least favorite book and we both said it's pretty pretty awesome this time around And again, I mean expectations is also a big part of what affects your Either because like a previous book in the series was action packed and the next one isn't which is the case with feast for crows Um or because the series is hyped so like people hype at this point like even though Uh a first time reader of first law um when it first came out wouldn't have had hype to go off of or like knowledge of where that ends to go off of um You might have heard good things about it. So you go into it and be like Where is this going? But now first law gets hyped So you go into it and you've heard this series is like people's all-time favorites And you're like it's going to be great and then like you read the book itself and you're like I mean it wasn't bad, but like where is this going? This happens in waves, right? This book is the best thing since sliced bread people read it with massive expectations And I think this happens a song by some fire a ton because of just how polarizing it is and then the next phase is actually it's not It's actually not that good. Um, it's actually really boring And it's just it's silly. Um, this means expectations is like Of huge thing that and I mean it's it makes sense if like it's not a spiteful thing with a song It's just simply it was over hyped that like it has so it's been this pillar That everyone's like these are so good that like people are like, okay It was good, but it wasn't the best things than sliced bread like because your expectations were sky high, which is like why I feel like a broken record that every time I talk about Abercrombie I'm like, I mean when I first read the blade itself I gave it three stars and I was like, why the heck would anybody want to read this? And I later changed my mind like I'm always like and you know, if you don't like certain things It won't be for you and like this is what it is going into it You should know to expect this if you're not expecting that then you won't like it Yeah, I'm not like it's brilliant just I mean I sometimes say that but like by then I hope I'm people who like who know I've heard me talk about it enough Yeah, I I mean, I I definitely think that these three authors are I wish there were more people like them Which some people might not love um, but yeah, I wish we had a little bit more of this Unfortunately though, I do think that the genre is going away from these styles And I don't mean grim dark or whatever like any of that stuff. I I mean just the approach to writing Um, it seems like it's moving more into the fantastical and I just mean these kind of books won't be published Um, but you know new age writers looking up at what's trending. What is the trend? What are publishers looking for? I don't know if they're looking for the next robin hob or george martin anymore Maybe probably george martin because he sells so much still but I mean pretty I'm sure every new book I picked up is the next game of thrones. I've been assured for sure for sure I definitely think like with hob and martin being a little bit longer Um, winded, right? I I mean, we do I mean we do still have I mean, well, yes This is also why they are the exception not the rule and why they are the greats because like There are hundreds of thousands of books being published and they are not all names that go on your top favorites iconic modern day classics I mean, they are all just it's not even the publishers aren't interested in this like They are not a dime a dozen Like it's not that like oh every author should just like try to be more like abercrombie Like i'm sorry like they don't have it in them to be like abercrombie Yeah, so like they are talented and that is hard to find no matter how you know many books you're publishing Yeah, and the whole next game of thrones thing is like just an indicator of how much people I believe have missed the merits of that work Uh and have boiled it down to very um reductive points like so it's stabby cool Everyone dies And it's like I've actually heard people say it's like that's all we did That's what people like it which if that's true like I don't know what books you read and I assume that you Struggle there may be people that that is literally the only reason they liked it. So Sure There that exists the same as like people who think that abercrombie is just like so grim and bloody That's so metal and i'm like that's He's laughing at you. Okay And I am very glad to see that because I of the three if we're talking about like is this marketable Is this what publishers want? I think of the three the one that is the least sexy is robin hobb is because like it doesn't Like it's not purporting to be and it isn't like at all edgy So like even though like we laugh at how much the like edginess is like pushed for like the promo of abercrombie Or georgia run because they are both so much more than that and so much less than that Like that is not what they are wholly about. Yes, like they are grim dark and yes, there is violence But like that is not the thing that makes them what they are Um, but like robin hobb is like, okay So what if you had like the types of storytelling the two of them have and you don't even have the like sexy edginess to go Be like, but it's like so edgy like you can't even do that so yeah Yeah hobb is uh so So genuine in her approach Uh, and she's off the three. There's a sincerity to her writing that I Like I don't want to make it sound like there's some from the false or disingenuous the other two, but like hobb is very sincere Yeah from the soul No one no one else could have ever finished her work like there's just no way it's so much her and I can't say any spoilers But I believe that these characters have really lived in her heart for a very long time and she's my favorite Writer as far as characters go actually I think there's people who do certain things better or you know, it could be comparable But for me and the development of characters over a large amount of time Uh, I don't know if there's anyone better at character development than her and if I had to pick like a best writer She'd probably be my best writer of all time regardless of genre Um, doesn't mean she's necessarily my number one or anything like that But uh, I mean she's definitely top five, but I think I think she's the most talented writer. She's the best of all time, but she's not my number one You know what I mean though? Like you can acknowledge, you know, there's biases and things like this because george will probably always be my favorite writer Um, because well, and I mean the the main reason that robin hobb should could never and should never be shelved in grimdark is that it is like It is entirely lacking in cynicism And and first law is like composed of cynicism and george or martin is quite cynical So it is that lack of cynicism that like no matter how dark it gets no matter how violent it gets no matter how brutal it gets It's never cynical Yeah, it's and in uh, that's not to say some Awful things don't happen, especially Early and then even more so later But it's still I never think oh is this grimdark. I'm just like no this is just dark and sometimes it's grim But it's not grimdark. No, uh, there's a sense of hope at the end of it all and it's interesting What points you will draw from the lives that are lived in robin hobb series if there it's a slice of life But it's also like a slice of you because she hits on things that are Very personal that you don't think about until they happen to you, but as they happen to the fits and other characters Um, I think you get a preview of how you're going to handle that situation in your life and it's all very human and low to the ground and um Why I mean me and mara last night like I mean obviously I couldn't help myself and I brought up avar crombie and george art martin because that's the whole reason This is happening this conversation is because we keep doing that but um Uh, we also like I didn't expect to do that but we a lot compared hobb to dickens Um, and it is quite de kensian high fantasy. I I have actually heard that before as well. Yeah You heard it from me first to me I actually think I heard at the conference. I was just at someone someone was talking about how she she reminded them Of dickens because I mean like fits and his like childhood of like trauma And growing up with more trauma and having adults around him cause further trauma It's very like david copperfield. Um Great expectations. It's just you know, what if there was also dragons? Um, also hobb has the best dragons in my opinion, but like ever I think Yeah, curin uh curin is asking daria Kind of like how does she compare robin hobb to joe avar crombie and george r martin? Um, I think she is of the george flavor of being a little bit longer Winded while still being able to use really economical sentences and pros to get the avar crombie feel at times Uh, she's also very raw and gritty while being Somehow poetic in the way that she somehow states things There are times where you'll read a sentence from robin hobb and you'll say there's literally no other way to describe what she just described She she figures it out and it's really impressive, but when I say it's like a son of ice fire people think it's going to be this massive Amazing world building and in this big political intrigue from the gecko. No, it is very much you experiencing life In this land with a character. It's much more slice of life. It's first person Um And it's outstanding. Well, I feel like I can say so for all three Like well three different things like what I think when I read their pros for george r martin I'll read something and go boy is that interesting for avar crombie I'll read something and go boy is that clever and robin hobb. I'll think boy is that true Wow, yeah, that's that could be that could sum up this whole thing honestly that that's all right good night That's honestly that's a very elegant way to putting it. Yeah That's right. I hadn't heard that before. No, I have not heard that before You should You're just brewing Uh, I I yeah, I like that quite a bit and I think um, they each all they all have their own strengths And I don't think any of their weaknesses are Um I don't know if to me doesn't ruin anything about them Like I could probably point out a weakness of each of the three, but it's so minute. It's not even worth considering to me Um, I would read anything any of these authors make, you know I mean, I have like quoted this to death and I even bought a bookmark of it because I saw and I was like Well, I quote that all the dang time. So I gotta get this bookmark But in kinkular chronicle Patrick rotha says to love something because it's easy That's uh, like putting a penny in your pocket But to love something despite to know the flaws and love them to that is rare and pure and perfect Yeah, let's go You should read kinkular chronicle. I am I'm reading it. I think I'm reading in the fall, but I'm reading this this year 100 percent Uh 100 percent You know what's weird about this though Is we're talking that you haven't read kinkular chronicle. I don't know to me a lot is weird about that But you know, we we aren't really talking about the other works that these authors have done. So obviously, um The robin hob has authored underneath a different name. She's also did the soldier son trilogy As robin hob george has written a vast amount of sci-fi. He also read a Wrote a vampire horror novel which I loved And then abracame has his ya viking series Have you read any of the extender works from these people? I call them extended works. They're just other works You know what I mean, uh, I've read everything abracame's ever written. So yes to that Oh, uh, I have not read. I mean, I've barely read the first six books in the realm of the elderlings for hob So I have not even finished that And I think for georgia or martin I started reading Something with like an eclipse looking thing on the cover And like I like accidentally de-anapted like I wasn't a booktube or anything at the time I had just like randomly picked it up and I meant dying of the light Yes, and I meant it to be like a commute book or something And I just kept like not reading it when I was on the bus and then forgetting about it and Then just I just never read it, but not because like I hate it or something. Yeah I'm uh, I'm gonna be died. I've read fever dream by george Um, and I read ice dragon, which is like a short children's story. I actually really like that Book a lot and I'm gonna read his tough voyaging Dying of the light. He also read a thing. I think it's called like hunter's game and it's like co-authored by A couple of different others, but daniel abraham helped him write it and it's like um like a thriller or something Like really strange. Um, so I'm going to read more of his works. I'm actually excited to see like His other stuff, you know, because he's obviously going to write it very differently Like tad williams wrote memories are on thorn and his prose is very talk and ask beautiful writing really But I then I read his war of the flower standalone and his prose was totally different as it should be Okay, that's the thing of like, uh I mean not just these authors but like authors in general that you like if you like them from a certain book or series And then to see it Can they do something different or they just like a one-trick pony that's like really really good at this Nothing else Yeah So like and obviously so I didn't tell pierce brown this this wasn't a thing I share But I thought it when I picked up the new books Because everything he had written so far was darrow's perspective and like yes We're still in the red rising world. So like I guess still one-trick pony But like for all I know darrow is pierce brown. That's the only voice I've ever heard the only perspective I've heard So like I don't know that you can write differently from this. This is just you maybe maybe I don't know You've never written anybody else's perspective. So then I mean obviously I told him I loved seeing darrow through someone else's eyes But I loved seeing him writing from someone else's eyes Multiple different eyes and they did all feel like distinct to different characters. So I was like Maybe darrow is you because maybe that is where you started. I don't I still don't know that But like I do know that you can write people that are not darrow and that are definitely not darrow. Yeah It's interesting and sometimes also makes you sad to see them like step out of like what you know them for especially these These being big series The one thing I will say about george who's the only author I've actually read outside of the main series Of these three I thought fever dream had a lot of the same strength as the song of islam fire while being completely different It had a lot of atmosphere and since it was written in our world He tapped into history and made it come alive And in some ways it was super hard to read because it was written in 1800s in the south, which you can imagine that being You know not fun in america But you know very accurate While still being really cool because it's about vampires on steam boats pretty cool very accurate to the times. Yeah Yeah, as we know as history tells us there were vampires on tugboats for sure Uh But um, yeah, I'm excited. I want to read a you know, obviously, uh, megan linholm A.k.a robin hob. Uh, I want to read more of her stuff And uh, and I want to read chat and see by apple carby Did you always know that robin hob was a female because I definitely thought she was the guy when I first saw her books So I have an uh name robin So I actually assumed but everyone I've ever recommended her to always goes. Oh, what is he right every single time? every single time Yep, because you know the only way you can tell usually that it's a females if it's initials. It's definitely not initials So it must be a guy I don't know george railroad martin. He is an issue. You know what I mean, though I mean shattertsy isn't um Bad I just feel very disappointed in it Because I mean like as compared like that's the thing Oh, I mean just like talking about rating systems like it's really hard to use a rating system because like If I compare shattered see it's a lot of other books. I'd be like, well, it's better than that Um, and I might even a book that I gave four stars to but I know abercrombie is capable of better than this so reading shattered see I'm like That's not quite up to snuff for you sir. So Yeah, yeah, well, you do come to it and that's why uh, it's my friend scott the ball booktuber always says Publication order is a must for authors like you're going to dive in So I read a guy gavriel k's lines of alerson really enjoyed it. I'd be curious to see what you think of that actually um, but Now everyone's like telling me. Oh, don't read fenivar tapestry. Now you read that because that's his first trilogy I'm here like, hey, it's too. It's too. Um derivative of tolekin all this stuff I'm like, well now i'm going to read it and now i'm just going to stick to pub order Like I should have done pub order and if you had done pub order on driver crombie You would have got shattered see first, right? No, he took a break from first lot of right shattered see did he I was at which is why like when I was trying to Like it's actually very disappointing trying to figure out. Yeah, but so then I was trying to figure out why it's so different And I mean there's many reasons and maybe none of them are the reason and maybe it's literally that it's really and only I don't think it because I'm dumb. Who knows like, um, he did Say he felt really burnt out when he was writing red country And I feel like I could feel that but I feel like it's in keeping with a western style Anyway, so I don't think that hurts the book but I get like I'm like, I feel that And then he after red country was like, I need a break and so he wrote shattered see and then he came back to first law um, but Shattered see I mean there's a lot of things that so it's why it's not adult He feels burnt out already. So he's trying something different And so like I don't know if it's because he was burnt out I don't know if it's because either he thought or someone told him that why a has to be simple and stripped back So he was like, okay, I can't do anything too interesting because it's why a Or if he was just like pooped Like what it was like shattered see Like on paper like the ideas at play the political situation at play The world he's built for it or like in concept what it's like I think it sounds brilliant and I I do think it is brilliant It's just that like he never seasoned it. He didn't like make it interesting like he never filled it in with like The interesting meaty Abercrombie stuff. I was like, why is this not interesting to me? Because like I know what you wrote and I know what situation you're describing to me And that should be so like filled with like nuance and I'm just like not getting that. Why am I not getting that? Yeah, that would be very frustrating. I'm very curious to to read it Because I do think I've read about the premise and I thought the premise sounds very interesting fact that it's why a little disconcerting for me because I'm not a But again, that's where I'm like if uh If either he thought this or someone told it to him that you can't make it Interesting because that's why I mean not that they would phrase it that way that that would be like the you know thinking I'd be pissed because like I've read why a that goes very dark places and does very interesting things So like if that's what he thought was that like, um, I can't make it too interesting because it's why I'd be like You can't like you can't write it like just like first law No, but like you could do a lot more than what you did Yeah, so does that make you nervous for his new work that isn't first law related? Well, it won't be why a so if that was the thing that made shattered see the way it was I mean just in general like his his only non first law was like I say like the thing that makes me nervous about it is how annoyed he seems with it Because he's like his own worst hype man And like even when he talked to me in the interview about it. He was very like it's kind of This thing that's like like he didn't seem enthused and then I saw There was some I don't know who posted it But like some like question or prompt on twitter that he was responding to and it was something like, you know If you could see like any book written by any author or like the You know whatever pairing like you would like to see x author tackle x thing or something like that Like who would it be or what would it be? at Abercrombie or somebody mine because they would mean it was done and I was just like I'm funny, but I'm nervous Yeah, and you can it's hard to tell because he's that's just kind of how he is very self deprecating, but I'm just like Uh, how's it going? Do you hope that it's it's a bit bigger in scope? Well, it's going to be the opposite of first law in terms of magic because it's going to be lots and lots of magic Which might be why he's struggling with it. Do we know if it's a standalone? I feel like it's a standalone I think it's Isn't it isn't like I think I'm trying to remember because I think I asked him that And I think he basically said that it's it would be like a Dresden type thing where like he's created a world And he's created like characters that like this book like the story is done But it's a thing that like could be a recurring episodic thing that you could write more Oh, I could see him being very good at that because he likes the noir type style of narrative Yeah, I mean that's what he that's why he structured the first law the way that he did because he was interested in Using like noir storytelling Where you don't know what things are and you start in weird places. So he has a totally different narrative structure Yeah, that's why he was like that didn't super work at a trilogy like admittedly That's where people are like, where is this going because I was like, what if I just start random places and don't explain it And people are like What does this mean? You're like, well, you have to read all three books Duh So he's like, okay. So like my bad on that like that's where he was thinking Hmm Yeah, I'm curious. I'm curious to see his new work. I hope that I'm glad that it's actually Opposite a first law not because I love magic or anything but that way even if a lot of the charm comes through It'll at least have a different feeling Well, I also I don't think that he's done with first law And if he like felt, you know burnt out did shattered see and was like, huh But then he came back roaring with like refreshed creative well to write age of madness Okay, then write your like big magic like mystery thriller Action book and maybe it's good. Maybe it's not but you'll be nice and refreshed to come back Yeah, because there's still a lot of tales to tell Uh in that world for sure Is um hob working on anything So apparently hob I believe was working on um a novella I think scott actually told me this and there had been rumors that it would have been two characters that Are in the series that I can't say just to be careful Um, but they'd be from the realm of the elderlings. Yes, they're from realm of the elderlings And that it would have been something along the lines of a pandemic or a plague or something And she decided to scrap it because of the world's obvious reasons. Yes. Um, you know, uh, other than that, I'm not sure I know she Did write something as megan linholm, but I don't know if I don't think there's anything on the horizon for realm of the elderlings Um, maybe as robin hob is something else. Maybe that would be cool Uh, I would say never say never But her last forward in the last book of realm of the otherlings seemed like the ending of an era to me It made me tear up for realm of the elderlings for her as a fantasy writer for realm of the otherlings For realm, I mean like I wouldn't necessarily Expect to hear that she's working on more realm of the elderlings Um, especially since I hear so much about how the end of it is kind of conclusive for all of the preceding Trilogy is that it kind of wraps it together and like that's not true a first law It's not like eight the end of age of madness was like and this Gives her the answers for I mean first law is very much of like we might come back We might come back Stuff happen. We might come back like yeah As far as her working on something new is as robin hob. I think she'll just continue to write underneath megan linholm Which is still, you know, speculative fiction Um, so you certainly wouldn't expect her to endeavor on something as ambitious as the realm of the elderlings for a different new world series I mean, I'd I'd welcome it But I am an investment in like another 16 book arc Yeah, and I mean emotionally the way she writes. I have to imagine it takes a lot out of her. So yeah Um, as far as new things for george. He's releasing a history of dragon's coffee table book It looks cool, but not, you know, obviously it's not the books we want but I'll buy opposite of what I wanted. Yes, I will buy it and I'll read it and I'll think it'll be cool um, but Yeah, maybe maybe we'll get some I will say this and his newest update He did mention that he wants to or is writing new dunkin egg stories Which is for me good because I love dunkin egg Um, and george is really good at short fiction. It's uh, he wrote a lot of short fiction I was gonna say it's a shocking thing to say when you look at dance the dragons Right. No, you're you're 100 right, but if you look at his sci-fi stuff, you know He wrote a lot of short stuff and dunkin egg We'll we'll be discussing that But in a week one week actually on the dot on my channel And we'll go over it then but I think it's really solid Really solid stuff and I think he even shines a little bit more in some areas not all But in some areas in his short form writing. So what does also like it forces you to be more disciplined Yeah, you're right because You have to get there. You have to get there and you got to pack a lot of punch in every single sentence Um, which george is pretty good at because his sentences sometimes have two three four meanings and foreshadowing all in one So be cool. Yeah, I had heard this too That she has bad arthritis Yeah, which is really sad because I have rheumatoid and I get it especially also because like If a writer stops writing because like they don't feel like they have stories to tell is different from like I have so many stories that I physically can't get out. You know, yeah that's I mean not that either is great, but yeah, I enjoy hearing jimmy's say dunk and egg I mean, it does sound very silly Dunk and egg and you're like is that like Have you started it? I'm about to start it, uh, probably tomorrow I finished it, but I started it very early in the month. So like I think I'm gonna skim it But again before we did you do the audio? Yeah, dude, how good's the audio? It's good, but he murmurs a lot And kind of like why do you so yeah, but so for an audiobook that you speed up. I was like, oh my god, you're murmuring. What what what did you just say? Is that blood raven? So like Roy talks very slowly like an old Shakespeare actor. So you can speed that up All right, let's leave old Roy out of this. All right He suffered enough. Let him rest in peace. Um, did hop um Always kind of intend this epic huge maybe not specifically 16 books, but like this big arc You know, I don't know. Actually, that's a really good question. I'm not an expert No, dairy and the chat is the expert dairy is the hob Definitely the smartest hob fan. I know. Um, I actually don't know that though. Um, I think probably like all No, you know what? Maybe not for Abercrombie. I was gonna say all of these authors Maybe the story grew on them as they went George the worst of the culprits But I don't know if Abercrombie did or not Well, I mean Abercrombie writes his trilogies in one go and then it was like, I'll do a standalone Yeah, another standalone. That's what I'm saying like standalone. Is it like one of these things where it's like, well What else am I gonna write, you know, but I mean because like again I don't know what it's like but from how it sounds at the end of the last trilogy Like conclusively like ties in like threads that are set up from the very beginning So it feels like you would have to have like from the beginning kind of Figured out where you're planting these seeds along the way that will at the end of you know, maybe she thought it'd be 12 Maybe she thought it'd be, you know, maybe not necessarily specifically 16 books But that you'd have like a I will at the end of many books finally pay off what I've set up in the first book Dairy is saying yeah It was a trilogy that grew full was supposed to be a walk-on character that vanished after one scene You want to talk about a character that jumps off the page? That's awesome. Well, I think I might have already told you this when um, you had me on to talk about age of madness But this is not spoiler. It's just like a character in it But um clover was the last character that he added like he wasn't even he'd written the whole trilogy And it hadn't didn't have that perspective Yeah, and after you told me that I was like, you know what that kind of makes sense But also I feel like it is a lot better for having that in there Like trying to imagine what the story would be like without that. I'm like, yeah, I needed that I would agree I would definitely agree She said she always knew how it would end but was surprised by how many books it took Matt said I'd be so scared losing my audience if I left the universe. I think a lot of authors feel this way well, I mean it does take um Discipline both on the part of the author and on or discipline and patience from the author and the publisher and the reading public. So like The It's putting a lot of faith in the author That they will pay this off and that readers will be interested enough to keep reading it And that they will they do have a plan in mind that they will actually write it And we won't be in a winds of winter situation So like publishers want to know that like, okay, you're gonna if you're gonna write 16 books We want to know readers are gonna buy them and that you really will write these 16 books We're not gonna be like Yeah, and I think that the outlines are probably in demand I mean even george had an outline at the beginning for the first trilogy What I was supposed to be three books Which my god That outline is wild You go read it back It's insane I do appreciate that Abercrombie writes all this books at once though. I really do well for a trilogy I mean a standalone yeah, right, right matter, but yeah, well, I think it also I mean I'm writing 16 books at once and then publishing them like, uh, if you can great But like I wouldn't expect that but I think if it is as short as a duology or a trilogy It does it benefits the story not just because like, okay We know you've done it We're not waiting for you to publish it because if you've written your trilogy Then like you might have had in mind to be setting up certain things But as the story organically does shift a bit then you can once you finish the trilogy your first draft can be like, okay No, I did set these up a bit But like the way it actually went down is a little bit different or like I want to emphasize it a bit more You can really go back and like plant those seeds properly so that by the time So then it does feel like this cohesive whole Instead of like I originally planned this and that's why this doesn't end up going anywhere because I wrote that and then later changed My mind like if you've written it at once you can fix that Yeah, and the way george gets around and he says this he leaves things open for interpretation But he also leaves it open for himself You know the famous hysteria and the Targaryen there's a reason why the breadcrumbs are there It's because at probably one point he was considering it I don't think it's going to be the case now And it's possible that the first draft of an Abercrombie trilogy has a bunch of open-ended things where he's like I think I want to tease this. I think I want to tease this I think I want to tease that and then he finishes it is like so and I ended up ending it here Okay, so let's go back and erase the teases that went nowhere And like emphasize the teases that actually added up to something. Yeah Yeah Kieran asked was it supposed to end with the dream of spring no It was it was always supposed to be it was always supposed to be three books And it would have been it would have been game thrones clash and storm of swords But the ending points were vastly different. It isn't like he is still telling that same story I mean we're talking crazy differences um That some are disturbing There's also a title when you say disturbing do you mean like because he was going to be really like a A fucked up storyline or yeah, I mean I could say I guess it's not a spoiler since it doesn't happen Yeah, uh, john and aria. We're supposed to oh you yeah, you told me that uh, and if you go read book one You can tell he was laying those lines. We read it now as brotherly and sisterly Oh, that's so cute But it's actually incest love was the first intended draft So that is uh a little disturbing Another thing that's really interesting in the game of thrones is that uh, Jamie Lannister is given the title of warden of the west And that is actually no longer a it's a there's a position because they mentioned it with a sweet little robin Uh that he is the warden or whatever But george had to add that in because he completely abandoned this warden storyline for jamey where he would eventually end up on the throne Uh and that that never happened and never will so There's a problem good for taking a break from grimnark. No If you don't want to be sad I was just like or it depends like if you want something that has sincerity and that then I guess like if you're sick of cynicism Maybe but like generally no yeah Generally no Oh, yeah, I was gonna say like uh, I don't I didn't think it was possible for Abercrombie to make me cry Just because of how cynical everything else all the time that like, I mean I feel feelings obviously I wouldn't read those books so many times. I cried in verse. I cried in age of madness only for the first time No, I cried in the original trilogy hit me hard I mean I get like I feel feelings absolutely and you know sad feelings and hopeful feelings like For sure, but I just I didn't think that Again, because it's so cynical that like because robin hobb is like hit you in the heart and then like twists the knife So like it's like you're a monster if you don't feel upset By what's going on in particularly farce here Whereas like Abercrombie is always like something horrible happens, but you're just like well That's just how the world be isn't it like that's like a vibe. You're just like I can't be sad about that Of course they died. Of course. This didn't go well I was opposed to like, oh no I I would honestly say that the last trilogy in realm of the other links could be considered Borderline grimdark. I someone said that in chat last night It's heavy Combine the heartbreak with violence The final book is probably my second favorite book of all time. Uh, it's so storm of swords and then Yeah Assassin's fate Fasten's fate the bone hunters is somewhere in the Assassin's fate is the prettiest of the uk paperbacks. Oh, they're beautiful. It's very pretty that last trilogy is all like kind of shiny Yeah, I like it. I like it. It's shiny Because it's still I like that it's in keeping still like it looks like a cohesive series those editions And yet that one is just like, but we're the special ones. So we kind of sparkly Yeah, I have them on the second shelf and I just absolutely adore just the way they look There's that lord of the rings at the end Yeah, I don't know God that was Impressive Oh, I don't know. I think they might be with my Hobbes as well because they are the same size Yeah, they're the same size. No, no, like you there's no way you can see from here, but That that is lord of the rings. That's hob Yeah, I think they go well together. They're like the same shape and size There is like, you know what? I know we're not talking about Tolkien But and hob is not derivative of all Tolkien in my opinion, but Or like not anymore than just like fantasy itself How do you like sort of like set the like and there might be some tropes like there could be tropes that cross over, but it's not derivative However, Tolkien has like a little bit of that like magic You know what I'm saying like where you're walking through the shire and it's like magical Like when I get that same type of feeling when I'm walking like through buck with fits like I don't know what it is and I I don't think I can quantify what I think well, I mean Of the three I feel like well, this might go with sincerity But like it feels the most like a genuine just fantasy story as opposed to like the other two feel like commentaries on fantasy genre Yeah And that's I mean just go with the sincerity thing. No, I think you're right Yeah, I think you're right It's just interesting because hob doesn't have the brand new language. It's actually mapped out into summer really You know all these things so lazy Where's my language But it's it's her approach to um It's kind of just the approach to the tone of the work. I guess this is maybe it Also, I mean like when you start because like mara and I were talking about like which one I think she said that like, you know, could you start with live ship? Should you start with farce or can you start with whatever? And she was saying how like, you know, we both agree that like ideally you start with farce here But you know for somebody who's like put off by farce here, then like we'll read live ship if you must first like that's better than nothing um But so mara was saying so because like that live ship feels more like A typical fantasy book in that way where like it might appeal to the general audience more because it's like Multiple perspectives and action. I was like, okay. I mean yes But also like what is more traditionally like a fantasy book than this young protagonist who's like at or going to or near a castle Who's like, you know discovering their life journey destiny chosen one Magic things like the fifth story is like so traditional fantasy Yeah, I I think it depends on the reader's prior experiences with fantasy that that's very important I mean, I think you go publication. Not that you're asking me, but I would go publication order Now the an interesting question is which one do I like more? So I I my heart is with farce here, but I think that live ships is a better trilogy I mean that's kind of how I felt about mara definitely says that she likes live ships better and i'm like I I think live ships is brilliant, but like nothing in live ship because I mean no matter how the character work is amazing in it But it can never compare to spending that amount of time with fits like it just it doesn't have the page It's like it can't they're accomplishing totally different things Yeah, but so for that reason like I never felt no matter how good it was No matter how deep it was no matter how connected to the characters I felt it didn't matter because nothing could compare to how Deeply connected you feel to fits and how much that like emotionally like gets under your skin Nothing in live ships can compete with that. Yeah, I actually I would agree with that I in the end of royal sassans like one of my favorite endings to any book ever in and it's funny because it Includes a bias I have that I don't usually like and it smashes my biases and robin hob smashed a lot of my biases throughout those books And I again like all three authors are for various reasons in various places doing things that somebody somewhere said you should never do Yeah, and they're all just like hold my beer And also do things that are very commonplace in fantasy and fiction and don't do very well I would say hobbs romance is phenomenal. I would say that abracame's romance is phenomenal Even though people might say what I actually think think abracame writes extraordinarily good romance in a different way Is like part and parcel of character work because you can't do good character work and ignore love Which is something that humans Experience Yes, I I think martin's weakest aspect is actually his romance personally There's worse But especially when it comes to his romantic scenes, we've talked about it at length But there's a lot of voyeuristic voyeuristic and Actually missed opportunities because he could have used it the further the characters a little bit more But it became a general thing unfortunately And he does sometimes like we talked about again like there are certain characters where he does use it to further the character But like Sometimes not. Yeah, a lot of times it sounds like George and it doesn't sound like the character Hobbs romance is amazing and then abracame uses the word squelch. So he wins So it's squelching. I mean abracame went like went off on like a little tirade Um about people turning their nose up at the idea of like sex and romance in books And he's like that's like You know half of human experience. Are you saying that's uninteresting? Are you saying half of what humans experience is uninteresting like rock rock? When I interviewed rockio, he said that he he doesn't believe there should there's ever a reason to write a sex scene I thought that was really interesting I think western culture has a lot to do with it get away with not having one I don't think there's any harm in fading to black to be honest. I think it's totally acceptable I think most most western readers would uh, I was gonna say I mean I would disagree that That you shouldn't ever or whatever, but like I also think that If you're not good at it, then don't Sure. Yeah, I like just writing it to write it also. No, yes, I would agree with that. I do think that there's um There's like a prudishness to american culture when it comes to sex scenes, which is why like people like guy gaverill k uh Get a weird reception because like he actually makes a lot of commentary about the society that the characters are in through the sex scenes and the romantic scenes and For some reason american culture were cool with people getting shot in the head But as soon as someone like starts getting frisky we're like Very strange when I read tagana, um everybody was like warning me about the Sex stuff. Yeah, like I didn't like love it like it bothered me a little bit But like the reason I ended up not liking tagana was not to do with that at all It was to do with like the story and the magic and the like the plot of the book It wasn't like it's sexist and I hate it. I was like that seems a little sexist sometimes like this I don't know how I don't know why this needed to happen That wasn't why I ended up not liking the book. Yeah in lions. I mean, I gotta be in lions There's multiple scenes and I like if I like the sixth one. I think I was like I got it I think I got it Like we can move on, you know, it's like anything like you can overdo battles. You can overdo Political intrigue. Yeah, there's there's a ton of things you can overdo But say for the most part except for I mean and I think martin gets worse about it as the series goes on Like dance with dragons is the most voyeuristic like the first three books like I never really felt that way Feast feast is so feast in retrospect is voyeuristic as well But we didn't feel that way because for Cersei it actually made sense with the way it was indulgent It actually made a lot of sense However, then seeing the exact same type of sex scenes in dance then makes you retrospectively go That wasn't exclusive to Cersei and the disgusting way it was being described. That's actually just George That's also like even though it it was in feast and it was with Cersei. It was still also less just in the book It was there with Cersei a lot, but so like in dance Okay, so we retroactively realized that that wasn't the great character work that we wanted to like Credit it with me and also there's just more of it going on And the first few books like I didn't really ever feel that way but I was gonna say That aside if we kind of like forgive the song always in fire for like Doing that a bit I would say for the most part when it comes to violence sex things like that that can be done badly or overused or or underused Like I think all three are pretty good At using them like when it's appropriate if necessary like not afraid to put it in if it is necessary um Like they're pretty good at like gauging how much and when and not just like More blood because it's cool or like more sex because it's like, you know They're they're good at like telling their story and using all the tools at their disposal when they need to and never Avoiding something for no reason and never including something for no reason. They're good at gauging that. Yeah, I I do know um And it's because I hear it all the time But a lot of people do criticize martin for the violence towards women Being mentioned in like offhand statements Like, oh, that was her uncle or you know, her uncle beat and you know, whatever I'm just gonna say when people talk about how much sexual violence there is in song reason fire It is mostly that like there's very little on page Actually occurring sexual violence. It's mostly like Referred to as having happened or referred to as like that is going on But it's not like the character that you are currently with Getting assaulted or doing the assaulting like that's not really much Yeah, and and I think the reason like some people say that um And and yeah, that was really bad and I actually like that book on like a lot of people But I thought that the sexy and rich drag was terrible The the females in that book were terrible Not like them but the writing of them But yeah, martin catches a lot of flak for um, you know, kind of that culture that is in there And unfortunately, uh, the bigger issue that I've seen with people who are historians or other writers They take issue because george's defense of it was very uh at the hip and kind of poor and he said Uh, well, that's how it was back then Like it is based a little bit on history. So that's how it was back then which if you look at what historians have said The report of a sexual assault in the medieval times was actually at no higher of a rate than it was Or is today However, and I said this today actually my patreon hangout. So they're all gonna say oh, I heard this before but My question is was the reporting threshold For abuse as stern as it is to and I'm not saying it's good today I'm just saying I was to say like people report it much less than it happens today So why do we think they were all reporting it back in the day? That that's my like I think it's Now I'm and again, I and it's not like you're gonna have archaeological evidence of rape like also having enough evidence Uh, uh, Deshaun Watson right now in the nfl. He did not they didn't have enough evidence for him or whatever Uh, and I'm not saying anything about him, but I'm just saying in general not enough evidence does not mean not guilty Uh, so there's a big difference in that they're obviously they're usually in this crime There isn't a lot of evidence And also I just I doubt that there is a large there was the same threshold as today as back then For what constituted assault? Um, but I also don't know if that's true. So I have to give people the credit that at the very least I feel like if he's like, uh Like he can't say for sure that it happened a lot We can't say for sure that it didn't happen a lot. What we do know though is that like Women were second-class citizens like far worse than than they are now and we know that like there's still problems with that now So like the idea that women are treated as objects and would be like used As objects, which is what that is. I mean Of course Yeah Like it's not I mean it wouldn't be reporting because I don't even know that they would think of it as assault Because they'd just be like whatever it's my right because I won this land and these are the spoils I get the gold the swords and the women like It's all about them being men men's property too Like if you were to someone were to abuse my wife, it would be a just it would be dishonorable towards me Not them as as a human. Uh, they they are my property or whatever Which is I mean like in the present day the same reason that like a girl in a nightclub who gets approached by a guy Um, she can say no all she wants It's only if she has a male friend who's like, hey, she's with me that you're Said this today in my patron chat That's true I know it is true. Uh, so you can see how it's kind of dropped down So, uh, all that is to say that I don't necessarily think they're wrong for criticizing george for this Like this is a very it's a bit of a flippant answer to a serious topic But also but george would have been better off and I've heard other I've I've heard people in the realm of scholars say this is they say well if He had just said hey, it's my fantasy where I'll do what I want That's fine. You can do that. That's that's a that I wanted to tackle these issues in my face. Okay, cool But people then take say well you said that but that's not the case, but I just feel like the The case that it wasn't like that could also probably be argued right can be picked apart Well, I feel like the main argument that also like people use when it we're talking about speculative fiction Is that like who cares if it used to be like that you can make your own choices in your world And you're choosing to include a lot of the sexual assault and that that is a choice And why are you making that choice because like you're not behold into what happened in history in a fantasy? Yeah, I think he probably shouldn't have said well it happened all the time back then so I'm gonna you know what I mean Like he could he should have just said it's my world I can put I mean he could even have said a lengthier answer of like the kind of world that I've built And the kind of brutality that I've established is commonplace It would seem disingenuous to not include brutality and violence of every kind. Yeah Yeah, absolutely and then because like to have a world as brutal and violent as the song rice and fire is but somehow there's zero sexual assault I'd be like unlikely Yeah, and the feeling that um That women are always in danger also comes up a lot. Um, but Yeah, it's not like all of his women are damsels. No, they're not. I mean are are you as badass? Although it is it is honestly like shocking When you realize that first law somehow avoids it that like there isn't any sexual assault Because like it's the kind of world that you just like of course there is and then you're like wait hang on a second I can't think of a time that there was That's a new trick. You can write grim dark without doing that folks A lot of people think that's mandatory for some reason Yeah, it is regret. I mean it is nice to like when you like Talk about first law and people are skeptical. I'm like there is zero sexual assault in it. Ha ha there's there's sex But not sexual assault It is just as grim dark as everything else But I always like to point out the the um the common arguments against george Especially when it comes to the the treatment of females in this book because you know, he's my favorite author So I feel like it would be Bad of me not to acknowledge things that people say even if I disagree with some of their their arguments Well, and I mean I again, I've only read rc or in live ship But actually where martin came up last night Uh, he partly came up with like the wit and working. Um, because we're in it brought him up but I also brought him up because And like I we just said abracame doesn't do this But hob and martin both have sexual assault and both Not assault have weird sex things Uh abracame be like we talk about all squelching and like it's still like it's the thing that's like His thing is that you have to be realistic And so like the sex scenes he writes are like awkward because like humans don't have like perfect the stars erupted As you know, we both came and it was a pure and amazing. It's like that's like not what's like his combat That's like his combat right his combat is very gritty and down to earth Whereas uh, it's not epic. It's like I tripped on my sword. I danced with my sword You know arcs of steel came raining down Yeah, so like abracame isn't like he doesn't really write weird sex scenes Like he just writes like when people tea he about his sex scenes. It's just because like you're not used to seeing them be so like kind of Realistic and it's like kind of uncomfortable um, but like hob and And martin have like weird sex things happen in both of their Generation we're like me and borough. We're both like and like she has I think she read a game of stones Like a long time ago, but she hasn't really read a song of my spare and I was like specifically um Which I don't I'm not I'm not trying to spoil it But I'm myself trying to remember which thing it was but I mean there's like a weird sex thing in farce here um And I think there's a weird sex thing in live ship Regardless when I read that I was like Well, you can tell the doors are a martin and hobber friends She was seeing like that. You're like, oh, you're the same editor. So maybe it's the editor's fault Or no, there's two weird sex things in farce here. I mean, I don't think there's a weird sex thing in live Ship, there's two very strange sex things In farce here for sure. I I feel like there's one that could be maybe classified as not like weird But maybe a little awkward um in the second one like not on purpose awkward Uh, we did wait did that need to happen? What We were having a wholesome heartbreaking time. What does that? Yeah, I I think I actually think Abercrombie handles handles all of that stuff rather well yeah and he also um Was like disappointed in himself and then fixed it in like the not having as many female characters and his original trilogy so like he sure came back like Fists pumping like great female characters in age of madness and he had good female characters before they're just like wasn't many Yeah, I would say they were way better in age of madness like way Yeah, but I mean like arty is great But she's not even a pov and like people love arty, but like you don't never actually see in her head She's not a pov character. And when I asked me was like, I just I never occurred to be the maker of pov And that does happen There are authors that are very thoughtful and plan out literally every single piece of their stories And there's some people who write and write the story they have and then um, they miss some things and that just happens and Uh, what's the standard? I I'm not sure but I know that I'm a lot more forgiving than most when it comes to that stuff By the way, daniel lupus said I imagine fights in abracame be like timothy's chalamet single combat and uh fight in the king Yes, that movie. Yeah, that movie has some of the coolest fight scenes. I know that that's not like historically accurate Rockio actually was like Something about the horses or something he was like that's not right and I was like, I just thought it was fun I don't know anything about horses. I don't care the movie has flaws But robber paterson kills it timothy kills everyone in it. It's fantastic in the claustrophobic nature of the battle Oh, so good. Well and also, um, so the part of history that the king is depicting like those figures from history um Shakespeare's like rendition of those characters Is what inspired abracame be in some part to write age of madness? Wow, interesting and like I didn't see it before Because I asked some question about like, um When he came back to first law, was it like, oh like I just want to write first law I'll think of something or was it like you had a specific like Story in mind that you were like, I must return to first law because there's this story that you know Like I must tell her like, you know what what how was he coming back to it? And he told me that he had gone for over like a couple of weekends To see every single Shakespeare history play in order with the same cast doing them back to back to back Um, and then it was brilliant, but that specifically, um, the like Henry five plays um, like hotspur and um How is what inspired or so in leo in the age of madness? And as soon as he said it, I was like, oh They are like hotspur and how I did not put that together. Uh, that's a big similar between george and joe They're both very into shakespeare And hob maybe as well. Yeah hob maybe as well. I'm not sure about that Um, you know, it's also funny Is that like blade itself in game of thrones both kind of have a noir feeling because game of thrones is actually a murder mystery And and obviously with the noir setting it kind of kind of coincides. They both have that as does the expanse well, and then I actually thought it was earlier, um When we're talking about whether or not hob is tolkien derivative and she's not and like arguably The first law is tolkien derivative purely because he was intentionally Like sub commenting on and subverting the tolkien arc. Yes Very much so which I find fun. Some people believe that if you're subverting Some uh an original work that your work can never last. Um, I've seen authors say this before and I think they're well I think it's a really dumb thing to say to be I feel like it I mean, this is again where it depends like if you're if you're writing a story where it isn't a story into itself Is an entirely a commentary on something then because like um, my friend heather and I have been reading the hogarth shakespeare's Which are all authors commissioned to retell various shakespeare plays And the thing is you cannot read any of them Without reading the play because they're all such direct commentaries on each of the plays They're not divorced from it at all And you couldn't just casually like read it and be like that was really good And then be like oh interesting to learn that it was inspired by the tempest But like literally like if you do not know the events of the tempest this book will be like, huh? So like they don't stand on their own and that's why we ultimately think that like Sometimes there's an interesting commentary, but it feels like it's in conversation with that play It's not a book unto itself Whereas like I don't have to ever like be familiar with henry five to to like read the age of madness But if you tell me that he was inspired by henry five, I'm like, oh, oh, shit. You can't I see it Yeah, that's kind of how the relationship between memory star and thorn is song of ice and fire Is if I had a dime for every time someone said a song of ice fires just a clone of memory star and thorn I one would have a ton of money, but I would also have jumped off a building Have a dire rich room man Only people who haven't read memory star and thorn say this stupid talking point, but to your point Good writing will hold up Yes, um It is so much fun to go back and read memory star and thorn and see the very little bits that george did take from memory star and thorn It's really cool and again, uh I mean every author is is writing um Like standing on the shoulders of the people that came before them because like tolkien was inspired by all of the myths and legends That he was enamored up So he was derivative because he was just copying all of like his languages are derivative because they're just like Taking his favorite parts of languages that exist and just like mushing them together into a language He's like these are my favorite bits together so Like no one is no one creates art in a vacuum like you're always going to be commenting on inspired by Affected by all these influences things that you liked things that you didn't like It's always going to be that absolutely Also, I can't wait for you to read king killer chronicle and then laugh with me about people saying that empire of silence Is the name of the wind because it's Well, I'm reading them both in the same year. So I'll definitely be able to pull some parallels I just I honestly kind of rage Like when you were saying that you get angry when people talk about the memory sorrow and thorn comparison When people tell me that empire of silence is just a ripoff of name of the wind I'm like I kind of want to punch you in the face right now because that's the dumbest take i've ever heard Yeah Half the time people make these kind of assertions. I feel like they didn't even read both books, but Like I know not enough people read memory sorrow and thorn Because it should be way more recognized than it is So if you had read the three and then read all of us, I'm sorry and then came back I'd be like, okay, we can talk But 99 of them have not and they just parrot something I'm I'm pretty sure that rakio has said that he's never even read the name of the wind He I think he said that in my and when I interviewed I'm pretty sure he said Well, I'm sure he's brought it up because like he gets sick of people saying I'm sure he does Yeah, but I'm like if you read it like if you wanted to accuse it of being like Copying something or being inspired by something or being derivative of something There are things that you could like it's The book of the new son I don't think it's an accident that he wrote the name of his to be a sunny eater Like he clearly likes gene wolf. He clearly likes the book and he's upfront about that Yeah And so like if you want to point to things there are things I mean dune influences are obvious like there are things And neighbor the wind is not one of them Yeah, and you know, we kind of talk, you know, obviously abercrombie pulled from shakespeare George pulls a lot of love crafty and stuff into his work, especially in the in the last two books definitely for a few Hobples from dickens. Oh, yeah, clearly And that's cool. I saw someone say that they feel like hob pulls a little bit from earth's sea and probably I mean earth's little lagoin. It was Amazing, and I'm sure robin hob looked up to her. So I think it's really cool and I mean like the This is where again, like I feel like there's a there's a kind of reader that Enjoys songwise and fire and enjoys first law and also like doesn't get it Because like if you're just reading it for like blood and violence like and there is blood and violence But like these authors are doing so much more than that. Yes And like they're only using violence as like a tool in their tool belt to tell A greater story and to do a more interesting thing than that. So if that's like getting out of it. I'm just like Okay That's the interesting thing about hob is I feel like hob doesn't have the The ooze and Oz of the more pop culture. We said it's not as sexy It's not crim dark. It's not edgelord Yeah, it's just it's just interesting because I feel like hob is almost like a pure version of the true intentions behind the other two Work in some way it works. So what I was originally where I was kind of going with that was that like so I think the kind of people that are like like fucking like first law like that's cool The thing is Joe Abercrombly loves tolking like he didn't decide to like write the subversion of the Lord of the rings because he hates lord of the rings. He loves lord of the rings same same thing with George George has some criticisms like I mean rock you have some criticisms would do, you know, it's very Yeah, I know There's there's reasons why they felt like they wanted to subvert some of these things and also let's be honest It's pretty interesting And I mean anytime you're engaging with like a project of like Being in conversation with something subverting something retelling something It's because you know it intimately and that you're able to even do that successfully And if you're gonna know it that intimately, it's probably because you like it. Yeah I'd agree So yeah, like there are so many places in first law We are like, oh, this is like this part of the lord of the rings except the opposite But like if somebody who hated lord of the rings and just kind of vaguely knew lord of the rings Decided to write an anti lord of the rings. It would be shit Yeah, let's be honest the subversion is way less tired than the derivative stuff So well, it's also the subversion doesn't come from a place of like, I'm gonna write something cool Because it's the opposite of that it comes from a place of reverence and also a place of but There is a different way to tell this story. There's an equal and opposite way to tell this story Well, and they also just might see the world differently Well, I think they do I think so Although I feel like both Tolkien and Abercrombie are kind of both sassy Because like You know that like Tolkien got a copy for free of dune and it was like I like it Yeah, he was like but not only didn't like it was like, do you want it back because I don't want this Yeah, give it to someone else like I think he uh, it was like strong disdain Yeah, yeah, rock you told talked about that he I did not know that But I think it's because of the pessimistic nature of dune on heroes And Tolkien was you know, extraordinarily optimistic Which is that like he could have just like kept the book and just said nothing about it But the fact that he was like, do you want this back? I don't want this Yeah, that's a bit sassy Yeah, I was even rude. I'm just like thinking like Tolkien on Twitter. Like that was the thing Oh my But anyway, um They're all three very very good And I mean for all the lumping together that we do it's I think also become clear through this conversation It wasn't clear before that they all have very different strong suits even if we do keep saying that they're so similar Yeah, and just distinct places in the genre And for me pillars and very formative to who I've become as a reader Yeah to riff off of something beautiful And up with something different It does take talent Well, I think um, I've I definitely have said this about Abercrombie, but I think it's also true of the other too Like I just haven't actually said it. Um that Much like watching like an olympic athlete They make difficult things look easy. Like if you watch the gold medal ice skater Like you're like, I could do that but they make it look easy And like the writing like it goes not that people don't appreciate these books I mean we're talking about this for hours and like they're obviously widely read and much beloved But like good writing Is hard and like because they're so good at it They make it look easy where you don't notice it. You don't if you're noticing the writing They've probably done something wrong. So like the fact that you're reading it and you're just like wow, this is so good um I feel like a lot of the craft of it like you take for granted because They make it look easy Yeah, I mean even and I've actually seen people um You know say that they're long winded or things but like I have this pulled up here It's the one of the catlin stark chapters from I think it's a game of thrones, but it's about the veil When you were said, I think it's a game of thrones. It sounded like a it's um, it's from this book I think it's called a game of thrones. Have you heard of this oprah's book club? Uh, it stretched before them to the misty east a tranquil land of rich black soil Wide slow-moving rivers and hundreds of small lakes that shown like mirrors in the sun protected on all sides by its sheltering peaks That's some good shit. Come on Yeah, that's beautiful Well, and I think like character voice, you know that they do When you just like, oh, I love these characters so much like that you don't even think about like How like incredible it is that they could write People that don't exist in a way that you immediately knew them and felt that you knew them And they were like distinct people that live rent free in your head that like that's hard And yet you read this and you're like, oh, this is a good character Not that like this is incredible writing because it made me believe this character exists. Yeah Yeah, sometimes you got to just sit there and marvel at some of the sentences hob more so than almost any other author I've ever read She's she's ridiculous. She's amazing Yeah, it does and I do feel like right reading hob is more of a gut punch than any of the like of the three Yeah, like when you talk about how much emotionally it must take out of her to read it That's why it also takes so much out emotionally out of you to or when we said to write it for her It would be hard that for us to read it It takes your whole soul Yeah, like uh, probably everything's like I think about rereading and then I'm like, do I really need to do this to myself right now? How much of a masochist am I? Yes Yes And I mean, I think good writers are all like a little bit, you know I will use flippantly a word that I shouldn't but a little schizophrenic that like you can have this many these many personalities like Living in your mind that like the way that authors talk about their characters like someone in chat yesterday It might have been dairy was saying that like robin hob talked about Getting angry with fits for making bad decisions because he's just added a hundred pages to her And you're like that sounds like mental illness that you're like, you know, he's not real right like, you know, you could have He doesn't exist Yeah, she said that it was an interview Between george and her and their their editor and she was just like, you know Why are you so mean to your characters and robin hob goes? I'm not mean to my characters fits just makes bad decisions and I go you idiot You just added 50 pages like what are you doing? You know all this could be so much easier if you made the right decision and when I heard that I was just like blown away Because it wasn't like corny when she said it like I think she I mean she did she meant it And it's like wow, she's really a person or fits is really a person in her brain It's crazy. Well, I think it's the fact that I mean you have to I don't know like to juggle in your head both like I'm a storyteller and I must Use my characters as tools to like perform story for me in the ways that I need them to While also being wholly convinced that these are humans that you have to be like, well, what would he do? Well, what would she do? What would how would they feel? What would they say? What do they feel? What do they say? um and to like try to juggle like Organically what this character would think and feel and where you're like, I need this scene to achieve this thing so It it's hard and the fact that they do it so well like I think as much as we praise them It is even myself. I'm just like, I know I take for granted how good they are at this. That's hard Yeah, especially when I try to write my own stuff being inspired so much by them and I'm like, uh I mean it is like putting states on for the first time and being like, oh, I fell down immediately I stating it's not easy Very easy to become paralyzed um with just Seeing what your favorite authors can do and then what you can't do Yeah, and I mean, I think uh treating your or thinking sincerely about your characters as a yeah What makes her characters and her? her books Feel so sincere. Yeah, I agree Like I don't know that hurts Abercrombie to hurt his characters And I don't know that it hurt Martin to hurt his character. I meant I imagine uh, Martin did say that he felt emotionally like impacted by Like his care like basically was just saying through the fact that like, you know, it's not free Like this does bother me a lot uh to do these things because I love these characters so much um So I think it maybe affects him a little bit. I could see Abercrombie just going Oh, I know it doesn't because like I asked him about a specific thing that he did in one of his books um that is very spoilery so I won't say and like um, I was like Like it's so mean to do that and couldn't you have like not done that and he was like Why like it clearly affected you. I did my job I did I did it good because you wouldn't feel so upset about it if it wasn't good I was like, oh you stinker Yeah, he definitely gets a kick out of it And like I mean at the same time like again, like we said before about like the tweet about his own writing Like he is also like a jokester. So like that's not to say he He doesn't didn't sincerely also feel something and that's he's not the kind of person That would be like it broke me to write that Yeah, but Yeah, he's definitely not that guy He says that they're tools, but like again, it's I think he likes being kind of flippant and glib Yeah, I mean, I won't lie like if that is the case that would make it a little less Great, but also I guess arguably more impressive that he makes them feel so fully fleshed out if you really don't think of them as people like Well Yeah, there's definitely a piece of though It's like if you don't see them like that, why should I right? But then there's also What the 99% of readers who aren't gonna go listen to an interview with him, you know, like they're just readers Which is real. So I mean, I think there's a part of Abercrombie that I don't want to make this sound like a value judgment But he is more disciplined than George R. R. Martin and how he writes and Like he even like used that word himself when not in comparison George R. Martin But just in terms of like when I specifically asked why isn't already a POV like Is it like was there a reason not like hey, why isn't she but just like Is there a reason that she wasn't like that from storytelling that you were like this would mess it up if she was That's when he was like, nope. I just didn't think of making her a POV But after he gave the like ha like answer He was like I basically feel like if you've chosen to tell this story And you choose your povs that you should stick with those povs because otherwise whose story is this And that like I have this is my trilogy And I've chosen these to be my eyes on it and they are telling this story and I can't like Like go wild. It's just like adding people in and adding plot threads and things going like you have to like Be yeah I'm not sure about it And that's why he does write a trilogy all in one draft has his POV is like Goes back and make sure that his clues all lead up to where it ends and like I think I don't know I feel like the end product can be so callous and disciplined Because he allowed himself the time to like kind of go through stuff and feel things out and feel What this character would do and how they would feel and is this true and he could feel all the feeling things And then the edit is like you are totally like tools in a toolbox callous where you're just like Okay, what doesn't go what goes what stays like what am I cutting? What doesn't achieve anything? So I think he can be They are tools in a toolbox at the end of the day And I need to have the discipline to treat them that way and kill my darlings because like I wrote a lot of stuff And everything I wrote is brilliant because I'm brilliant But also it's not so like what do I need to cut and so I think he's very like Okay, like you have to be realistic Not all of this is good So in that sense, I think he forces himself to regard them that way Yeah, that's fair and it's a measured approach and probably why he's able to finish things wrap things up be definitive Yeah, I'd agree got to cut it off before you're wallowing an emotion If you believe anything Abercrombie says that's on you Yeah Um Dairy says do you guys feel low key offended by comments like that from authors that are so clearly using Graham many povs guarding methods as a negative reference I couldn't feel offended because I created that like when I asked Abercrombie that I was like Oh, I didn't ask him that but I think When he said that he was being disciplined about how many povs he would have I was like because otherwise You end up with piece for crows and he was like I will not comment I um I've read melasin That's my answer. So pov count doesn't matter. There's like a thousand povs in melasin. So It is also like, you know, each storyteller has the right to be as Yes all over the place or as disciplined as there's also a huge difference between a character driven narrative to a character focused narrative Abercrombie is a character focused narrative. George is somewhere in between hob is clearly a character focused Sorry It would be Abercrombie and hob if a character focused and driven for martin. So they had melasin with Hundreds or maybe a thousand povs is definitely character focused. Uh, and that's a whole another can of worms to get in what Well, what what those mean for the narrative structure you pick I mean, I love shippers. So Yeah, I'm glad He better I mean, I yeah, I didn't mean the whole tools in his toolbox. I think I mean, he didn't say that in the interview with me but I mean this is where also like the we coming back to like Which of the others interested in like war and secrets to the world or whatever like that's not Abercrombie is like it's just not what he's thinking and so I don't know what my question was but we were just talking about like all the times that he uses Um previous characters and scenes where like they just pop up and like that's why I always say you should read it in order Because like a character will just like pop up and you don't need to know Who they are because it wasn't really important to the story But if you do know then it's cool and it adds a layer to that scene Yeah, um and the way he talked about it was just like, yeah Well, I could be dumb not to do that because like I could have a scene in a tavern This is seen in a tavern or I could randomly throw in this character from a previous book So it just immediately makes it more interesting. So why wouldn't I do that? Like it's very like calculated and callous when he puts it that way, but also I'm like, yeah And it works. It definitely works for him too I think daniel has a good point. He says uh with the song advice fire a lot of the chrism come from book Six not being out people trying to find reasons to blame people wouldn't care about pov bloat If there was a book every four years and that is great I totally agree with that. I mean, there's also like chicken or the egg So like maybe we would have a book sooner if we didn't have pov bloat because we'd have a disciplined titer like yeah But would it be the same story? No, because a lot of people hate area hota and arianne's pov But as we found, you know, that was extraordinarily important for learning more about the prince of doran and And everything doran's gonna have involved with uh the next dance dragons And like we mean we talked about this in a song of ice and fire live the idea that you would force an author to Use a different authors writing approach because it's faster or because it's somehow better like no like as much as I was just like Well, you know abracame super disciplined, but at the same time, like that's what works for him Like either I don't know if he's making himself to that or that's just how he is But like that's clearly like that's how he does it. Yes And that's great And I mean I appreciate it because that means that I get the ending and I guarantee you'd get the ending But like George or martin if you made him you'd be like, okay, buddy sit down and do it like abracame does it I mean the books would probably be shit. It's like that's just like not how he works That's not how art works. Um, and you know, that's probably what abracame probably won't write a thousand page epic Because that's not how he works. Uh, you know, I'm the first small trilogy is a little longer But even then they weren't arguably he wrote a thousand page epic if you think of the first Like one book. Sure. Yep 100 and he did and he did right? That's how he wrote it. So Also, George does pay stuff off phrase seem auxiliary books one and two and then the red wedding happened Yes, and there's still a really big piece in a dance with dragons as well. We can't see yet Yeah, it's a it's the whole thing of like even just about a single book I said like discussing a book as you go in a lot of ways is kind of silly Which I mean again, we also talked about this is that like the reason that you have faith That this will get paid off is because they have previously like You know pulled through and it is valid and fair if this is like a first time author and this is your first time through a series when you're like So far, this seems pretty pointless and you're like, maybe you're gonna prove me wrong and maybe this is going to You know, you're gonna pay it off and this is actually going somewhere But until they've actually done it you're just going on faith and georgia r martin has proved in the past that like If you are patient with him, he does pay things off So there's reason to believe that he if something seems pointless there's probably a reason He's given you a reason to have trust in that but It's a leap of faith the first time like when you pick up the late itself You're like this seems to be going nowhere by now like any abracame book I'd pick up I'd be like I fully trust you wherever this even if it seems like it's going nowhere. I'm sure you know where this is going But the first time you're like, I don't know. Is this going somewhere? Yeah, totally So I think like if people initially with song of ice and fire would have had those concerns I'd be like that's valid but at this point You're like, okay. You don't have the next book But like do you really think that he's not gonna pay anything off like well the other big thing is people binge the first three and now are waiting and obviously it's a long wait. I mean that that's fair, but Reading something as it releases and binging are totally different experiences and people don't put enough Weight into that whenever they're reviewing a series like dark tower as a binge is awesome If I'd waited for each book I probably would have been a little bit upset with some of the releases But I didn't have to and I said that my review and I loved it. I thought was awesome I mean, there's also like pros. I mean, it's not always better to binge sometimes like it's better Especially there's like some books that have spent a lot of time catching you like reminding you of what happened before And if you're binging it, you're like, I freaking know. I just read the previous one Hobb and uh, actually rocky rock. Yo had a lot of repetition in book three in my opinion Which isn't a bad thing. I even said them review. I said objectively. This is not a bad thing to do You should do this It's just the sign Others you can just have a one pager and be like previously on the story thus far Exactly. Yeah, um Robin hobb does do that Robin hobb recaps a lot of stuff in the later books Which I'm sure reading them as you went. It was probably very much appreciated, but binging it. I'd be like Come on Let's move it, you know, but I never docked a point. I never went. Oh, this is repetitious Uh, because there are books that are super repetitious But there's so there's a specific situation where like it was definitely a kind of I was talking to somebody about this duology and like they just read the first book in that duology And they finished it and they felt exactly the same way that I did about it and it was not a good way Like it was like this ending like what the fuck But so like I was like, okay, but the second one is very very good. Um, and they're like, I'm not ready to like And I was like, yeah, I read them as they came out So I had a year to like forgive the author for doing that and being like, okay made my piece I will read the second book. So I was like, yeah, if you don't want to read the second one immediately because you're still angry Like I don't blame you. I was that way too. I had a year to cool off and they'll be like, okay Now let's do it Yeah, I definitely uh, recap. Do you mean through dialogue or do you mean a forge? Uh, yeah, she she means a forward, right, liana Well, that's what I meant, but you before we were talking about authors that just like sprinkle in like a lot of characters Saying things that are like and of course what happened last week as you and I recall but I will say it anyway Yeah Yeah, I know I just read it. Yeah which isn't like It's not the worst thing, but I like a long leash as a reader personally yeah, and again like there's um there's also More organic ways of reminding people what happened and then there's very blunt like remember when this happened Just making sure like you can Yeah, I feel like there's better. There are ways of Reminding even within the same book There's sometimes, you know books that like repeat information because you're like I really want to make sure you got that because that's important for the end Um within the same book and like again, there's ways of doing it where like it just it feels natural Then like yes, it was a reminder and I am noticing that you're bringing this up So it's probably important, but it doesn't feel like a super unnatural either info dump or like why are they talking like this? Nobody talks like this. They're talking like this to tell me a specific thing. Please stop it Yeah, I um that was one of the thing with sanderson books Exactly like this. Hello, my brother. So the king. How have you been since we valiantly defended the castle? Yeah, that is not what you should do. I almost start. I want to write that like ironically I mean, I feel like Abercrombie would at some point put in something like that just as a commentary just to be I mean, there's a short story in red country that is entirely him just being a Nargis smartass There's no point to that short story other than just to be like Yeah, I mean I would um I liked that sharp ends was like a bunch of like off cuts Just like little just little things that are like in the world And I mean Duncan egg is a bit like that, but it's like a different era Yeah For both robin hob and for a majority of our and I would thoroughly enjoy something like sharp ends That would just be like some one-off bits of like maybe a character that you I mean, I arguably Abercrombie bro zone really did write prequels for Logan and Glock to in sharp ends because there are stories about them from before the times of first law, but I like the like just dipping in and seeing like that's not enough to tell a whole book And there's no reason to include any of those stories in a full book But they were interesting little side things that like fleshed out the world or like we're just cool little excursions So like I would totally love to read something like that for realm of the elderlings or for song by some fire Yeah, and like realm of the elderlings has the novellas, but I mean, I guess the novellas kind of work like that Like they they um, they're kind of like peaks. I guess, um Whereas Duncan egg is like really its own series in a way like it's serial, right? And again, it's a different era. So like seeing one-off stories like sharp ends is like pretty Contemporaneous with the books that we have. So like if you had these one-off like Yeah, or story about hot pie And just like a day that he was having Or give me Arthur Dane That'd be into more prequel territory. I'm fine with it. Just give me Arthur I just love the sort of but I mean since we did the you know, sort of get these quick Prequel type glimpses into Glockta and Logan like what would be some moments that get alluded to because like the things that we get for Glockta and Logan and again, no spoilers But they are specific moments in their lives that we had heard about in first law and so the short story is like, okay So here is it happening. Um, so if they're if you had the opportunity to have like sharp ends But song by some fire edition What like mentioned thing for like character that's like in the series Would you want to see like that actually happened in a short story? Yeah I mean, there's so many things in a song by some fire. That's like one of the The best things about it because there's so many characters that have like little histories given but like I would die for I'm trying to think like of a relevant now character. Like honestly, Renly like Renly Like after book one, but before we see him in clash or I feel like really fun To be similar to the type of thing we got in sharp ends in terms of like what pieces of their past we saw if we actually saw Jamie um Coming knighted Not getting knighted, but when he does his king's laying Yeah, how that actually went down instead of everybody's idea of how that went down. Yeah, you know Yeah, and he kind of explains it, right? Um, and it that's one of the fun things about like histories that depending on who's telling it It depends on who's the good guy and bad guy and in Jamie's story. He's the good guy Um, oh god, and it's so important Yeah, be sweet. Here is the song of ice and fire jimmy voice. I haven't heard that almost all night when you're just like Oh I mean when you do this, so you just think about how much it parallels with brian Oh Another reread Or um for uh, jorah, some of this stuff from his past Yeah, jorah would be interesting bar baristan could be cool too. Uh, if he did dusk and dale, uh, whenever you save aries when he shouldn't have When he should have just let him die Or um, Davos the smuggler Yeah, Davos the smuggler that'll probably be a tv show one day Is it gonna be called that uh melisange when she was sold into slavery that could be interesting Uh, how about how about robert ned out on the road like a buddy? Oh Oh god Honestly like my first what the first thing i was gonna say was anything to do with the iron islands because there's so much that gets Like you don't see that much of it in the books Mostly what you know about it is like people mentioning things that happened Like show me all of it whole sharp ends that is just iron islands stuff Yeah, it could be pretty brutal too because they're past like maybe how they organized their rebellion Um, whenever the war um, whenever um robert's rebellion was going down whenever they rebelled right after that would be really cool How about the reigns of castamere as a story how about that Like tywin like seeing tywin become tywin. Oh man It's like the darth vader an origin story. I like how this is all just bear This is all basis for fanfic by the way like i'm sure if we google it There's probably all these stories written by something that's the thing sharp ends isn't fanfic. It's i know He wrote his own fan. It's awesome I know it's awesome Yeah, you could do that whole that could be a not a novel like you could easily get a syncing novel it almost would be like A whole novel i don't know i feel like it'd be too much like a A disappointing prequel because you know where this is going you know the end point But a novella where you're just like just a glimpse of like this one pivotal moment. Well, that's true Well, also if you give the pov of brain and stark you would answer a lot of questions I mean honestly if you did a novella about regar then That would no longer be such a mystery That'd be sick But at the same time that's when avagrombie is right if you did that you would no longer be interesting You could also do it through darth ordain's pov though since he was at the tower. I see now we're getting this That's where like that he's not wrong like the reason that we're so fascinated by it is because we don't know If we get that answered we will cease to care Yep, that's why there's uh, there's ink spilled on the page When it comes to dunk and eggs and uh in the world of ice and fire book Which is such a good move by george. Have you ever heard that story? Okay, so in the world of ice and fire, there's a section that covers eggs Rule as king and dunk is in his hand. I've missed you Well, this I thought I thought this is hilarious So george wanted because it's written by maester He wanted to literally spill ink on the page and sell the book that way Like with an ink blotch And they were like george if we do that people will return the book because they think it'll have a defect and he was like But I wanted and they were like No, you can write that this page was destroyed in translation So they had to stick with that but george the madman Wanted to print a page in a 40 dollar book with an ink stain on it. I just thought it was just So creative there are like mixed media books where they do that kind of thing But if your whole book hasn't been mixed media and you just do that on the last page like People would not think that it's such a cool play on the narrative or I'm sorry the narrator of it Like who who is writing the history like it's so cool And I think that's the thing that Abercrombie is not this is not a thing he shares with them both robin hop and george r martin Not just in terms of like oh picking your pov like all three of them are good at that But like who is telling the story which is a different question from whose pov or it Like the fact that fit is telling the story. It's not just from his perspective He is telling the story from his past and saying this is what happened to me That like and throughout a song rise and fire like who is telling the story is a big theme Yeah, and I think that that's a question that as readers we should ask ourselves more often when we're reading Who lives who dies who tells your story? Yeah, it's such a dorge thing But I don't want it I mean, I I mean, I guess I would go so far as to say that both robin hop and george r martin are a little more sincere In their writing than ever grumpy Yeah, maybe george to a fault Yeah, I mean it's obviously comes off as a very different the narrative doesn't feel sincere the way robin hops does but Like I feel like they both believe in their own worlds a lot more than ever grumpy does ever grumpy is like I can do some interesting things in this world that I have created not like I don't I don't think he regards that as a living breathing in world the way that robin hop and george r martin regard their worlds Yeah, and maybe it's because uh I think abracadabra is as much more of a commentary And it's a lot more interested in like I mean, I think I don't know I think he genuinely like is into the character stories that he's telling But he is not interested really in world building like that was he's not and it's not just like a more thing Just world but he does have really cool world building though because of the the aging of the world like actually But again, it's more of like a I don't think it's realistic for a world to stay the same And what would it do to my characters for the world to progress? I'm interested in what it does to people to see how they change because like the economy changed because industry changed because magic changed What would that do to my characters like that's the only the only thing he's interested in And I mean almost a magic is like what would magic do to my characters like he doesn't really care about like What if I developed this magical system in this world that worked this way and the mystery of that? No, but what if there was magic that did this thing and how would that affect my characters? Yeah, and those are uh, actually pretty important questions to ask switching of ages and how they impact people Um, like eventually we will get into an age of post scarcity where Everyone kind of just exists and that's uh That's a good one for maybe sci-fi jota. I was gonna say have you read scythe by neil shesterman? I have not but my my wife has and she enjoyed it a lot That's kind of what that's about at least the first book she enjoyed the first book a lot I enjoy the first book and I think the second one is better is like I thought the first one was like Oh, that was good and I was like definitely gonna read the next one and then thunder had also Oh, that was so good Maybe I should give a shot I mean, it's that concept is that We solved death death. It's no longer a thing that humans would actually need to deal with So we invented like basically grim reapers of our own to be like well people do need to die though Because like we just can't have everybody all the time Your job now to go around killing people off you go Yeah, I mean I would I personally also mostly care about characters. So that's why he's my number one Um, because like I mostly also like that's the thing that usually bothers me. That's why I can't Be enamored of books like standard brandon sanderson's and again, that's not a lot of sincerely not a value judgment like if you are interested in like Magic systems and just like that for itself and like worlds and that for itself I I mean, I'm really happy for you. I'm not like I care about like seeing People put in different environments and what that how they react to that and that's why I love nk jemisin I love abber crombie. I love authors that are like that's the question They're asking and that's why most of the time high magic worlds also don't work for me Because I feel like you have not thought through the butterfly effect of even the smallest change in your natural world Which is what magic is is a change to like the physics of your world Basically, and you have not thought through how humans as a collective and as an individual would react to This their world being different like if you change one thing Everything is different and they do big magics and 50 different kinds of big magic And I'm like you have not thought through how humans would react to this and it shows yeah Yeah, there's a lot more I mean it's just another piece of the equation that you have to account for and it's already hard enough to write So kudos to people who do take that plunge And I mean having higher magic and still doing that which I even though abber crombie is my favorite It is more impressive that robin hob and joy dora martin can have attention on lower magic world building and the characters Yeah, and I think specifically with the song as far the fact that magics coming back in Allows him to answer those questions about how the general folk would feel about this because even when we hear about You know rumors of dragons like many people are like Okay, sure There's even some people who don't believe they even they ever existed They even though they're you know, it was only about a hundred years prior. I think the last dragons die out Or maybe no, maybe it's 500 years. I can't remember But I think he gets to play with it a little bit more because it's reintroducing it slowly Um, and he does a pretty good job with it Yeah, but I just I mean I guess of the three That arguably the most impressive is I mean like we talked about for the dora dora martin's like That's why he can write a history of his world that like That he's done all of that work with how his magic works how the religions work how The history works how everything like that works and also Pay attention to the individual characters in his world and how they feel about it And how they think about it and make them feel like real people as they navigate this whole world like I don't know like the To be spinning so many plates Is impressive it is many hats many many hats And like hob like next best of that So I mean, I haven't finished the realm of the elderlings but like next in terms of like Do paying almost equal attention to the history and lore and building out of that and that's a mystery into itself Not just how does this affect my characters? But like I'm just purely interested in like what is this magic thing? How does it work? Where did it come from? Who are these magical things from before? What is the history of that? Um, like and also obviously the deep dive into like fits and all the characters and like how they feel Yeah, and then lost knowledge is a very natural thing through history and I really like the robin hop plays with that I mean abrogami mostly just cheats with that He's like, uh, it's no lost no one knows so I mean like I asked him uh So like the names of the northmen, you know, they're all kind of like weird names and like we learn Um that they are all like names that come from they it's not like a given name at birth It's like something you did or a nickname it's given to you and like Logan says at one point Oh, that's a naming wound that they probably name you after that And like he's called Logan nine fingers because he's missing a finger and Like you have the dog man in red three trees and you have stranger come knocking and you have like all these Bizarre names and some of them we get back stories for like we do learn shivers backstory. Um, we learn Um, we know Logan nine fingers story. Um, but for most of them we don't Um, and I was like, do you have like even if you never wrote it in the book Like do you have in your mind when you wrote those names some back stories for those names and he was like, no I just thought they sounded cool Well then Moving on That's so funny I think for specifically stranger come knocking He was saying that like he really it was a some day where like Someone came knocking like literally that's what made him think of it. I love that name though And I mean it is such a naming name It is And to his point not knowing the next stories of them like allows you to sort of like It's the world feels real for not knowing it because like you wouldn't know all of them And some of them probably would have no backstory It would just be some stupid and a lot of them were like if they have a backstory It's such a thing that like I don't even know how that started when people will People will say that like in real life be like I like you have a nickname You're like, when did you get that name? I don't know. I feel like people have always called me that Or they changed the story over time. I mean that's what happens too. Yeah Shivers like you get his version and then you get the true version I mean nine fingers is a badass name, but he that's uh, I mean we did have a chat about that too about how like You could easily like fall into the trap of the nick naming them all something like I think the name he suggested was like Ragnar Bloodaxe That like they're all that and I was like you have to name somebody that now he's like yeah, I do But like there aren't like all like badass names, you know, like that they would have weird names Well, some people's is are embarrassing Yeah But like rather three trees you're like, I mean, that's not it's not embarrassing or badass. It's just like, huh, what? Yeah, you don't even sure how you could pair those together Someone I know is called biscuit And I mean that's the thing of like nicknames like they kind of do come Weirdly and organically sometimes and I like that he didn't have like a strict naming convention with it either Like Logan is Logan like that's his given name, but he's called Logan nine fingers or the bloody nine Um, and then you have like red three trees I would imagine red is his name and then three trees is like the nickname But others like dog man You just call him dog man shivers. I guess they call him call shivers Um, but like there's not like stranger come knocking like what the hell is that? So like there's no like specific like it has to be like their name followed by the nickname or it has to be You know, like it's like all over the place We had this guy Back in high school. We did backyard wrestling. We all had our stupid names, right? And we couldn't think of a name for our friend Ben And uh, we were at dinner with our other friend's dad and he got butter on his knuckles And he goes, oh, I got some butter on my knuckle. Oops. And we just said butter knuckle and that was his name Like that's perfect. Ben. You're now butter knuckle And everyone in high school called him butter knuckle. It was so it made no sense Like it had no bearing, you know, that's how flighty Names are Do you watch Seinfeld? Yes, of course. It's like t-bone And george so desperately wants to have the nickname t-bone and then some other guy is like, oh, I like t-bone. We should call you t-bone What the heck? George is the man Given name the earned name People always called me the because they knew one day I'd have a follow-up to that I Mean I will say it is sometimes jarring to me in ha books. The names are sometimes very fantasy names and sometimes they just feel so Modern like kyle You got a name named kyle Kyle have you heard george carlins? Stand up about boys names. Oh my goodness You should you should listen to it. I'm not going to do a disservice by quoting it But he shits on the name kyle pretty hard and it's really maybe that's what inspired hob to name a character like it might have been kyle, you know kyle It's just the way he says it. It's so funny It just like I mean like Fitz chivalry farce here and then kyle What are we doing? It's like kyle tom and tucker. These are not real names these What happened to viney tom though that that checks out to me as a fantasy name kyle Yeah, did you see there was like a meme that was like about how some people cannot be cast in period pieces Because you just have a face that looks like it knows about social media and technology But like you just look modern like your face knows the future and I think that's a name like that like kyle I'm like that's no you can't name somebody that's a name that like goes to high school I Mean but at least it was fantasy version of greg kyle is just kyle. How did you get the name jimmy nuts? That's a long story It's a long long story And by long story, I mean my real name is very close to that Unfortunately, so I just shortened it I was about to say I didn't think it was a long story It's not actually I don't know what I doxed myself so Oh miles of names. Yeah. A lot of names are really random that they're Keyboard smashes are too calm. Yeah, still waters one of my favorite names. I don't know why but I've always liked that name Well, like as as as cool as I thought whiskey jack was I was like this the one of these is not like the others Yeah, it stands out. What is that one? And he is the kyle What is this one? It's like they plop down like a redneck in the middle of the universe like with that It sounds like something from a western or a pirate thing or like dujec one arm. That's a name like anamander rake That's a naming name. That's a badass. You can't have this same book have anamander rake and whiskey jack It's like jack sparrow stumbled on into ye olde middle medieval fantasy world like what? I love the name tovore That's like a name. I would like to name a kid of mine. I'd love the name tovore so much I have to say like My one of my favorite like books for names and it's not a favorite book is dune I love the and not just like names Okay, not fall But not just people names, but like the words for things and the names like there's so much naming names that like I want to find excuses to say them like you can talk about the book without saying those words But I will choose to say them or it's just like I don't actually have a point to make but I just wanted to say Yeah, or like quiz that's how to rack like that's just like Oh, what even is that? Like I don't have anything to say about it, but I want to say it Yeah, dune, uh, you know in those older authors took a lot of pride in their naming conventions like Stephen donelson was very big into latin Like I don't think he like loves latin, but he dug into latin To get names and for I think there's also um I appreciate a Tolkien-esque appreciation of purely the sound of language Which isn't the same as like wordplay or being good at prose. It's just like the shape of the word is beautiful so like Quiz that's how to rack like that isn't that's not like good wordplay That's not good prose, but like you've put together something that sounds like a heck of a thing Yeah And I feel like I I feel like that gets mocked, you know fantasy for having like weird names that are unpronounceable But I feel like there are authors that really do pay attention to just like The sound of a thing and then also having a cohesive sound where like this all feels like A different world that isn't necessarily. Oh, okay. So everything sounds german. All right, but like You can invent your own sound and have it sound cohesively like yes Yeah, yeah, tad Williams does it tad tad Williams is you know, we talk about like big world We kind of talk about like tolkien to george, but like tad Build his own language. I mean he he really went the route and it's really good like it's Really good and he he has his own sounds apparently it's it's kind of derived from finish Um, but I I don't mean it's again just like with like storytelling like you're not creating in a vacuum Like obviously you're gonna be drawing from existing language But speaking of names though, like I do think this is another strong shoot of all three authors that like For the most part though, like there's a sense of place in geography and status that comes from names And it's again a missed opportunity for a lot of books where they're just like a name it fantasy stuff Whereas like you can really make a world feel lived in like that when you go to where denaries is all the names They all sound like made-up things like all of the things and well, you know Song of my Sapphire sound made up But like they it's a very different flavor of made-up where she is that feels cohesively like as part of that area Versus like where you are in westeros and even in the north like how things the names like without you ever having to info dump anything You're making your world feel real Yeah, the uh In marine all the names, you know his dar All that stuff it sounds so good Um, and it does it sticks out because it's unique and that's part of like probably because of dune, right? Like dune did do that very very well So, but I mean I think hob and avocomby also take that same opportunity like as much as I made fun of kyle I mean like hob does like the names of the different parts of the world the different like echelons of society like Yeah, like she uses names also of places and of people also the naming convention of like after like a trait right like Regal, you know, I it's when I first read i'll be honest. I was kind of like really like I mean when you tell people the main characters fits chivalry farce or you're like Yeah, no, I When I first started reading a sad spirit, I was a little put off, but then by the end I was like I like it Shrewd king shrewd Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things hob does and I know we me and mar talked about last night We're like on paper if you're just like That you hear this is the thing that's in this book or that this is going to be like talking to animals talking ships They're named after traits like patience and verity You're just like that sounds like the dumbest thing ever Do you not want to read that? But like hob at this point you could tell me she was going to be writing about talking baking soda and I'd be like All right. I'm sure it's going to be sick Yeah But I mean also I mean apricot be also I think the names of the north the names of the agriant the names of gerkel Like yeah, definitely the gerkel in the north definitely and stereo sounds distinctly different Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think they all do that Yeah, I really start from scratch Yeah, and I mean fits is a real word. It means bastard so Allegedly Yeah Is it you know interesting to like keep that in her world as true that like And I think that's an interesting thing that fantasy authors have to navigate is like Which things that are true in our world Are also true there because like the fact that they speak english is like, uh, well, that's a happy coincidence I would imagine an entirely different world wouldn't The fact that they have monarchy and they have humanoid species. This all seems very convenient and unlikely So like how much are you going to make it like our world and how much stands on this and in language it's particularly difficult because like Figures of speech and things like that that you just like lean on as like all that expresses what I'm trying to say But then you're like, okay, but where does this figure of speech come from? Is it like a biblical reference and like they don't have the bible in this world? So like They wouldn't say that do I want to come up with like a clumsy everyone knows that's the expression But it's like the in-universe version of that expression because that can be really corny or like, you know Like how much is being pulled over so like fits meaning bastard is like for me. That's part of language Um But you know like to pull that over like she could have invented a fantasy thing that means Bastard. Yeah, you have to draw the line somewhere, you know And that is a very good question. Where do you draw the line? Because some people use modern-day terms and then it'll just tear me right out of the world Um, I feel like because a lot of this stuff is medieval inspired like terms that existed then like bastard and such Like even though obviously like we're speaking in English and they might be speaking a totally different language Um, it's still like resonates and sounds like it fits, you know, but if someone was like Yo, that shit slapped like I'd be like, oh boy. What? Yeah, excuse me. I think that is a attention to detail too that I think I read a lot of books where especially like like idiomatic expressions where I'm like Okay, you know where that comes from might like that does that's not in this world Like why would they be saying that? Like, um, I got so I mean I have an entire video ranting and so I did this wrong all of the time but like, um In half sick of shadows, which is like an Arthurian lady of the lake story Which, you know, that's like startling the line between historical fiction and speculative fiction But it's still like the expression that she used was um smoke and mirrors And I'm like Okay, they didn't even have the technology to make mirrors Let alone the magical convention used by like illusionists to do smoke and mirrors And then it was only in the 1970s that the expression smoke and mirrors was like people started using it So are you telling me the lady of shalott said smoke and she began it like I think not She started it But it's like stuff like that where you're just like, oh, it's an expression and I'm like, okay But you have to think about it like where did that come from? I'm like, would they be saying that? You're cringe af bro, I mean I would honestly live for that which is I'll said that because we know he's thinking it Yeah, some people do actually get um some different times I can say the same months But then some people do just say months and we just kind of accept it. I'm okay with that I mean, I do think it's the way that seasons work and a song wise and fire is a unique choice That winter isn't like they're not like oh this coming winter as every year that winter is coming isn't just like Man, the Starks every freaking year are just like, yeah, we know winter is coming. It comes every year like we get it like Yeah, then like the long summers Which like really is like climate change like rapid climate change Yeah, and the fact that the um the wall has been weeping You know There's actually that's actually kind of a cool play george could have probably even done more with it But he did if you think about like mass migration from the north Coming down now obviously it wasn't just because of weather it was because well the winter was coming But also because of you know walkers and such but the winter was literally coming Yeah, that that piece of the story is so fascinating to me still even after reading it all these times And you know jemison did that very well and broken uh broken earth She was able to yeah, we were gonna chat about broken earth at some point. Let me know We'll get off of our ever groovy martin and hop kick. Yeah talking about someone else. Well, I love nk I mean she's definitely up there for me Yeah And that trilogy has a lot to do with climate and stuff But like that's something that uh that author should play with more. I would love to see that Absolutely, but again, I think It can be done lazily where like you haven't thought through how this goes Yeah, or it's just like allegory like straight allegory for or it's just like it's like a thing that happens in a way that you're like It creates like a problem But specific to the plot you want to tell but doesn't like actually largely affect all of the little things that it would affect And like nk jemison like has clearly thought through how everything is affected. Yeah, I mean it's central to that I I would say and and done very well. I loved how it ties into the magic as well um, I just finished the guy's not willing and There's like not it's not like climate change, but it's like, well I don't know. There's an event. There's a weather type event that happens that is so different from anything. I've ever read um, the only other person I could think that was done is hob And she did it really well. It's in rain wilds and um, yeah, I just read and the guy's not willing I loved it. It mattered so much and caused so much issues for everyone in the book that Very like you said trickles down into the little things so cool I mean like the very way that society is organized infrastructure is done would be different if you change things about your natural world But yeah, this is this is what you get moons So like we don't have weeks and months because then you're what are we naming the months? And what are we naming the weeks and you're like many moons? Yeah, brineley durphy actually does all of his stuff through moon phases um in his books And I thought it was really really cool. So I don't think you've read the wolf yet because I think you would have told me No, yeah, I haven't read it yet, but I want to so an interesting thing that I don't I mean, I often talk about how amazing to like this is a very different kind of amazing world building because it's anthropological in the like This is a different species So how do they organize themselves and how they function isn't just like, okay, their world is different like they are Lired differently. So like they wouldn't organize themselves the same way. They don't function the same way So like one of the things that is like interesting about the anakim Is that they they have the year split up by like weeks Like they have names for the year by the week because that's how attuned they are to the nature and what changes in the nature At like that minutia. It's not like vaguely summer is warm It's like we know week to week what is beginning to bloom what is ended blooming What is coming up what is like going away and we've named every single week because That's how like keyed in we are That's pretty cool. I'm actually really excited to read that Especially from anthropological Stance, that'd be cool. And they're kind of viking. He's it's also very cool Um, I mean I also hate that Yeah, you gotta pick words that are rounded Because it actually does make sense in the world to use storms because it's like capital punishment I actually get it but it just doesn't sound but it also is the fact that What world has only like one exclamation only one Swear or you know, like it's just it can't always be that storm father Yeah, there could be more and I just think that storm isn't a great word Even like wheel times light and bloody ash or whatever blood and bloody ashes Like those sound rounded and sharp Uh, they have like a whipping to them when you say it's like there's a reason to like fuck It's so like sadness is a very I was about to say that it's very Sharp word or even dam dam is very rounded at the end. Uh in storms you would think, oh, that might It ends in an m. Yes storm you doesn't work Really doesn't And I mean, I felt this I just read uh, I'm not actually sharing my opinion because I'm not allowed to share my opinion on this yet But war breaker by Brian and Zanders and Hilary picked that for me And in that you get colors and that's the like exclamation colors I'm just like Yeah, it's not good Doesn't work It really doesn't But it makes sense because brandy sanderson doesn't swear so he doesn't know you could come up with a cooler fake swear But unless if you swear a lot, you don't you don't know it sounds good, you know Like he hasn't sat around and thought about the the What's comes comes back to like coming up with like quizzats hat or act like just the sound of words Like this is a different wordsmithing. This isn't like an artfully crafted sentence that has multiple meanings It's just like I mean You sacrifice something for velocity folks Like I'm not saying we all authors should write trilogy is where it's like two books and then 20 years later, we're hoping for a book three like that's that's the opposite end of the spectrum There's a happy medium There's a happy medium Patrick Roth is an author that like I mean he's also the when we were talking about how the pros of the three authors We're here ostensibly to talk about tonight um Don't get lauded for their pros that much even though they have great pros Patrick Roth is obviously does get lauded for his pros. Um, and I mean he does like It's clear that he's like He's expressed that he has mental health issues and then he's an obsessive perfectionist And you're like, I mean it shows they're like you went over every sentence over and over and over again To make them sound as good as possible and that you're not satisfied It's like a thorn in your shoe that you're like that doesn't sound perfect yet. That doesn't sound perfect yet I have to make it perfect yeah Uh hoods breath I love hoods breath Hoods breath hoods breath. I say it all the time. It's seven hells from Or um in first law by the dead Yeah, that that sticks by the dead back to the mud back to the mud back to the mud. I'm getting tattooed on me I really am I'm just gonna win. I was gonna say considering that that means dead Yeah, I want to yeah, I want to do something with that and well I mean those are without inventing words then inventing Expressions that are you know putting words together. Yeah, um, but that I mean inventing like, you know Those are like that's part of world building that I think also gets either You know, it's kind of lazy to just be like colors I mean like okay, but come up with like actual like how is your culture function based on like Maybe a color based magic system what other expressions might arise out of that that might be an uh Like expression of alarm. It might be a swear. It might be You know, you could come up with a lot of like figures of speech and idioms that kind of come from That and it's just like overlooked and I think, um Like Abercrombie and martin are very good at coming up with like in-world idioms and expressions that feel natural Yeah, they definitely do ugly as incest It's a pretty good one or um ferro constantly calling them pinks like that feels completely natural fat pink mask That is not the kind of pink that I was talking about It's a very different pink Also, like hoods balls. That was made me laugh What is that from? It's from the last Hoods balls and I I actually said it this past week Yeah, good as girm is so good at branding. Yeah, it's one of his biggest strengths. Yeah I also think that pierce brown is really good at naming He keeps it simple, but it works And again, it's all that kind of stuff that makes it feel like a cohesive real world I didn't need to go Come help yourself. Yeah Yeah, but I mean at that point like I honestly wish you just like didn't have any kind of all just don't Talks teats is also a good one Ah There's so many good ones, uh I mean, I feel like one of the laziest ones that I see the most often is like I think a lot of fantasies because they don't want to be accused of ever commenting on a real world thing They'll make it polytheistic because it's like no one can say it's a commentary on christianity to make it polytheistic or like you still can but like um, you know, they'll just like vaguely make it Some gods and so then they'll just make the same expressions that we have but it replace it The singular with the plural So people aren't like, oh my god, they're like, oh my gods and you're like it's your nation in my world You're like no Yeah, I uh, I saw I read um, alexander darwin's a self-polished author did a trilogy called the combat codes and I actually really enjoyed it but um Dark is like considered a swear word and he said like there was one character who is Like rough and he'd be like you darken idiots, you know dark dark dark dark and dark dark and he's like, oh my god This is terrible like like I like the books but like that piece of it was really tough for me to get through and I actually I end up You know telling author that actually because he asked me for feedback but Books are good, but I told him I said you got to cut down the the inworld swears because Every time he says dark and I just want him to say fuck Like it just doesn't work, right? I was actually thinking but like it's not ideal that like that's a swear either because of like real world like Oh dark is bad like Yeah Not ideal Yeah, not great. Just make up a word. Yeah um There was a lot of what I think I thought of but well I forgot about it Character really becomes swears in other cultures. Yeah, that is a cool piece of that world for sure Storming inspiration spread But I think it's also the fact that like uh, and I think jar jar martin in particular is good at this kind of thinking but the other two are good as well and a lot of others are not is that like the most direct idea of like how A situation or of a faith or whatever Would result in an expression and that it's this direct one-to-one and you're like, okay But that's not how cultures like we just talked about nicknames like they just come out of freaking nowhere that like they They spring up and they morph over time and like the reason people like people who are atheists say Oh my god that like nothing ever makes that much sense So the fact that things don't always make sense in your world makes it feel more real And the fact that I mean like the sakra blue like what french say which means sacred blue Doesn't make any freaking sense But it's because blue sounds like due which is god. So it's the same. It's like people saying and oh my gosh instead of Oh my god But like it's making things like further adjustments to it like that We were like, okay But like how might it change and one of this random thing happened that changed it even more And that just like took on and like if you make it random like that It feels more real. So like the fact that we don't get an explanation for why pharaoh calls them pinks But then she's like, well, what color are you? You know, like, I mean, yeah, it checks out but like But yeah, it's it's stuff like that that makes it I mean dark wings dark words, you know Like you could see why that would become a thing and it doesn't feel too on the nose If people were just like, I don't know if it was like Bad ravens bad what rhymes with that? I don't know I mean, you know, it could be like more on the nose and you'd be like So it's stuff like that. It makes it feel organic The others take you and it's all vice-versa nice expression too. Yeah, george's worldbuilding is so good and natural in the way that he spreads it, you know It's it's rather good We commented on it. I think in book one or two We were just like look at all this worldbuilding We were so much this the fact that that's why I say don't explain everything because like in real in real life We do so many things that we do not know the explanations for we just do them. Yeah I mean, I'm atheist in christmas slaps so But there's also just like this hodgepodge of traditions. It's not like oh well the christians Do the jesus birthday and the pagans do the tree with the candles. They're like, nope They're all kind of doing all of it I Harry Potter had muggles Yeah, which admittedly is a very good word. I gotta give it. I gotta give it Yeah, that's what it means. Don't let the muggles get you down. Yeah So not only the three authors are talking about I mean nk jemisin is actually very good I think in broken earth where I think there is the glossary I never checked it because like you can pick it up from context clues what they mean But it's very it feels very in universe doesn't feel like these like fake made-up words because this is a fantasy world It feels very like it makes sense why the naming conventions would be the way they are and Our people would talk the way they do and why this would be slang It really helps with immersion for sure Um, I I think george is like really good at it. Um, and it's because he has so much history and lore around what he's doing That's a good way to get you read. Yeah, my blood was also pretty good. Yeah, my blood was also good Angry that muggles is a good swear. Yeah It is what it is Mudbloods and muggles. I mean it They roll off the tongue But like, I mean not to this point also not just that it's not believable that they know it It's also unlikely that they would talk about it Yeah, that's true We like I don't sit around at christmas explaining our own christmas traditions to my family who know what we do And why we do it and don't need to hear me explain it You know, like people don't go around explaining their faith systems and their traditions all the time. They just do it It's true And then even that like family traditions at a whole another layer were like, okay Not only are there these like mixing and like a pick and mix of different faiths that got morphed over time and then commercialized and then merged and became Christmas There's also every single family has its own traditions that sometimes makes sense and sometimes really do not make sense Like like one year, you know mom burned the christmas dinner And so we ordered pizza and now our christmas tradition is to have pizza on christmas and that no one else is doing that But like that's our christmas tradition is to have pizza, you know, like stuff like that Yeah I want pizza This is the main takeaway Oh, yeah, they did that and like at first I was like Yeah, it's kind of cute, but I also got really annoying really fast. Yeah, you never want to annoy people with like You're in world swears. I was never annoyed when ferro called someone a fucking pink Oh, yeah, they are House rules. Oh like different people playing monopoly different ways Yeah, average people don't think about culture They don't Or if they do I don't know. They still don't talk about it the way that like exposition dumps are or are explained away all the Hippocritical things that I know something like they'll be like and you know, it doesn't really make sense that we do this But we do it because Yeah, you're like, okay, we're constantly being hypocrites voice of the author here. Yeah I mean it does it feels almost like a fourth wall break when they're like some infodems Some exposition is literally just like so author here. Uh, just going to explain to you. This is how the world works Okay, so back to the story and you're like, thanks for that Thanks, Robert Jordan Not tell them why I'm doing it. Oh and I mean, yeah, it's the house the the words for each of the houses and song of wasting fire Yeah, and those help tremendously like we do not so hear me roar He you know a lot of detail went into that stuff And someone said earlier they feel like it's more organic because George is coming up with it on the spot And I actually agree with that a lot and that's why I Even when I write I kind of like the discovery or gardener or whatever method of writing I feel like you must be referencing something specific. So what 12 year old orphan went on a cultural diatribe? I would like to know Um, maybe talking about a song of ice fire because the characters are young. That's what I'm assuming, but I'm not sure I think we're talking about like books doing it badly We're like explaining your traditions and some 12 year old also knows like entire history of oh, probably It may probably Harry Potter Could be right I feel like it's usually like the grown-up because that's why I mean as much as it is a cliche to have a fish out of water character That's why you have them because then everybody can go around explaining things to them Like I don't know how this world works. Like let me tell you That's why it's also uh nice to have your main character travel somewhere Definitely and We've been going for quite a while. So we should probably end soon, but I'm about to introduce like a very complicated topic So just briefly. I think all three in very different ways are good at commenting on like tense relations between Social classes and between races Yeah, definitely and they show those things not in like a we could just solve racism If we all you know, like it's never that it's always and it's also never I think Abercrombie like even said in the interview that like he hates like there's nothing worse than you know This is the villain and you know how I know they're the villain They said something racist like that like it's never that simple And the fact that the kind of like prejudice and bigotry that you find can be like Mustache twirling top to your evil that you're like, okay, you're literally in the kkk. Okay. Like, I mean that's that's pretty as far as it goes But there's also like very pedestrian mundane forms of like Classism and bigotry and racism that both I mean all three of these like their worlds don't shy away from showing that Yeah, I would agree with that and It's the questions we talked about like they pose a lot of questions and the reader has to decide what they think is moral What is it moral? You know, you can come up with an answer for every single one. I've even seen some people say they understand why kyle is such a Dick and live ships before but hey, that's their interpretation Uh, I feel like in first law, it's always interesting to see because he was given the name kyle at berth And he's been raging against that Uh, first of all, it's always interesting to see who people cheer for in that. Um, you know People cheer for jamie and that's a very popular opinion But if you look at hold out if you look for it in his whole existence, you know, he's done some pretty crummy things Um, so they're very complex questions and the answer is not always right there given to you by the author And those are the best best things Well, it's also I mean like uh We like for fun Z's got into the topic last night like who's your favorite character and then I was like Okay, but I think there's two different ways to answer that this is your favorite character because like oh you love them And then there's your favorite to read about Yeah, because like most of first law You can't really say you love those characters But I love reading about them. And so then like in in hobbooks. I was like, okay. I mean, I love night eyes Um, but I love reading about kennet And like I don't love kennet. My god. I don't love kennet, but so fascinating to raise a monster monster But one of the best characters I've ever read in my life Also Hobbes favorite character Of all of realm of the elderlings. I think it was this specifically. What was her favorite antagonist? I think was the question and she said it was kennet Um, but I felt like she like kind of said I think my favorite characters kennet. Um I mean he's there's so many layers just like Jesus. Yeah Live ship, uh, you could do a character study on each person in the cast and get Tons of hours out of it And kennet did seem the most that like you could pluck him out and stick him in first law I need to feel right at home certainly And in a lot of different series. I mean he would does he comes off the page. He's so good It's like the distinction that I so what I was saying that you know farce or like there's things about it that are like the character works reminiscent of First law and it's it's equally as dark a lot of the time has anything in first law Why is it not grim duck? Well, your pov is you know, the hopeful naive sweet fits. It's not a cynical pov Um, it was first law the pov would be regal and so in live ship when kennet is a pov I was like, this is very first law of it to make kennet not just in it, but be a pov Yeah, and play with you as a reader I mean every single chapter of kennet's I was like In within one chapter. I hate you more and I like you more and I feel so confused Yeah, you're very invested in him because of the people who surround him and you're constantly rooting for those people to be happy And in who he is you're like it's not an entire 100 percent. You're bad. It's like there's a lens that's very Like I can't I can't be against everything that you just thought and felt like some of that was valid But also it was mixed in inextricably with a lot of not great things. I'm like Yeah, one of the best uh best formed antagonist Probably the best antagonist I've read honestly I know pierce brown. So it's his favorite character is adrius the jackal I think he's one of the most chilling we like one of the most chilling introductions to a villain Like the first meeting with the jackal. Yeah, I like the jackal quite a bit very unsettling very um, I mean it for like, uh I was specifically talking about this in the podcast with bethany about when glockta goes, um I don't think this is a spoiler because so he goes to girkle And you know, there's he's been sent there to deal with the defense of the city situation Like that's the reason he's there. So obviously you have to like figure out what's what what are the resources we have Who's here? Whatever and there's like this is a different area of the map. There's tense race relations And the people who have been previously handling this were not doing a great job And glockta does not come in as like a it is wrong and everyone is equal And just because they are different from you then it is like no He's like it is very impractical of you to be not utilizing the best resources and the best resources are local workers So if like it's it's doesn't I mean he doesn't come across as like a moral do-getter But also like it does shine a light on like these tense not great race relations We were like you're showing a really bad situation and our character They were following isn't like This is atrocious. This is these are humans like he's like isn't he's like and he's even called out like someone is like Oh, you expect me to believe that like you want what's best for us. He's like, I don't care what you believe I definitely don't care about what's best for you. But what's best for the city is if you help us out. So Yeah, he's not he's not the paragon of righteousness, right? Yeah And the idea of like a character coming in like not that there aren't people who were like Just you know fight for a cause for the cause's sake and would be like this is just wrong And it doesn't matter if it's impractical to do things differently. It's wrong the way things are being done But like most of the time the way the world works is like what is kind of What people feel like is going to get them the best like the most ideal situation for them So like the fact that glocter comes in and it's like I mean, I don't I don't care that this is moral or immoral. What I know is that this is stupid So you should Probably use the local labor Yeah, I just turned out that his selfish act ended up, you know coinciding maybe with what was moral. Yeah um, which I think like I don't know like the that that situation like depicting it the way it was where it's very clear to the audience That this is a moral wrong Um, so like he's making the author is making the point that this is a moral wrong by showing it to us that way Where like and the other character's talking about you're like, oh, fuck you Um, but then not having your poe character fill in the like You know moral do you know Dudley do right role like you didn't show me a bad situation Just to have the main character be like and I will solve it like your main character is like, I mean This is dumb That's his attitude Yeah, I read a judgment of a character says more about them than the character Certainly And yeah, I mean there's nothing worse than a villain that is evil for evil's sake I woke up and decided how will I be evil today? Like that's people are always the heroes of their own stories. So Yes, yes, we are And I mean the we see more like race relations specifically like with danny's plot line and where she is because like Westeros is more homogenous Yeah, and also it's a it's a pretty interesting take on colonialization because Danny wants to put an end to a lot of what their culture Had going on before that that had been passed down for a long time And some of the people even wanted it bad the fighting pits is kind of what I'm talking about but And she wants to end it but she ends up bringing it back and she's disgusted by it But the people are loving it and it's good for the city's economy and it's like really interesting take on I was gonna say actually both hob and martin do interesting things with slavery Like specifically and like don't just make it like I mean not that they're not never saying well, sometimes it's good Like they're not saying that but like the way that they're making it not just like a well you end it and you're like, okay Sometimes it's it's really not that simple Yeah, so like in liveship traders and you know the handling of slavery there And the way that plays into just all the themes And then like you just said danny and the slavery and Her part of the world is It's a very messy complicated gray. Well, it's always about what happens next That's kind of what danny's story is all about Well, you can't just like disrupt a system if you don't have a replacement Correct Correct a lot of people want to topple things and not think about what the next step is Which is why you need to read the next red rising books When he's done we finished, you know, because we did the toppling but like one now Once he finishes it I'm in you know, he submitted a draft for book six what I've heard That's awesome Which is also because he like he tossed like 600 pages That he had written before and was like nope starting again. I was like, oh, no That's scary, but he said he tossed it because it was too dark and I was like, oh Because dark age Is very dark and he didn't think that was too dark to publish So his sixth book he was like, that's too dark. I can't promise that I was like, my god Colors what is in that? Any other thought I like all three of these authors very much I think I know who your favorite is So, yeah We have our I think we've stated our case They are best in the biz I have my homework to read the rest of the realm of the elderlings Yes Yes, you do and I need to read Duncan egg for our discussion next uh Next week I need to read the wolf and king killer chronicle Yeah, I know I got a lot I got a lot of stuff I'm gonna start janny warts his 11 book series because I'm a madman. So that's gonna be interesting One series exactly uh wars of light and shadow by janny warts. It is um I've heard a lot of people that I respect say it's the most underrated fantasy series of all time It's supposed to be extraordinarily complex Um, and it has like four or five individual arcs and the last book comes out this year Um, which is the book 11? So I'm really pumped and I've heard that her writing is insanely good. So really excited about it Well, you certainly sell it. Well, yeah I guess I'll let you know you can be the guinea pig. You come back and you're like I read it You're like, you know what? I have I have very high hopes very very high hopes But you have to keep them low when you go into it so that you won't be disappointed. Of course But thanks for coming on to chat about these authors that we always chat about Anytime and we'll be talking again for hours next sunday and it sure will I'm gonna say it feels a little weird to be sober and talking to you I'm surprised you made it I mean, I think it's more impressive that we can go that long and not be sober Yeah, I would agree, but it's easy when you're talking about these three Yeah, and then I mean me and Alex don't have to do anything We just kind of like mention a thing and then watch you go like oh, and it's so good because oh guys guys Do you know that it's actually he actually said it's confirmed and I looked this up and like I wasn't imagining it. It's confirmed That is me I will I fully own that very much It's my impersonation of So good. Oh, no. Oh, I should send it to you. Um someone did um trump as golem Look, we want the precious when you need the precious. We're gonna get the precious So good. It was stolen would we're gonna get it back It works Okay, well on that note Uh, thanks everybody for the lovely chat and jimmy were chatting and just the all the chatting and the chatting See you next time. Bye everyone