 uh the right view we are yes perfect looking good done we've solved for world peace people done uh so you do you know are we gonna start now or what's your thoughts okay okay there is an antitrust uh i'm actually not in front of that but uh um children we should we need that or yeah good i think you need to know that everyone that there is an antitrust we uh we uh and you can go and read that website for information about that out so everyone can see that right and i think today we'll just go straight into the uh moving forward presentation but please i was awesome antitrust policy awesome over to you i think okay thank you so much if everyone can go on to mute um just just through the session i think that's gonna help so we have a little bit less background noise um there we go thank you so much everyone thanks uh firstly for inviting me um it really feels like um it almost feels like julian i'm returning to a place where we started a conversation about three or four years ago for those who don't know i already know julian from uh my past uh and looking into blockchain technologies and i'm really i feel privileged for for being invited to the session today um i have a small agenda that i'm going to run through um nothing too complicated uh the first thing is i just want to introduce myself then the international chamber of commerce uh who i work for and then ultimately the the dsi itself um which is an initiative that i'll be leading after that for those on the call who already know what trade processes look like i do apologize um i'm going to just give a little bit of a overview of what a generic trade process looks like and some of the complexities there but i won't spend a lot of time on that and it's just to help people especially those who have let's say a technological background but not necessarily a trade background to to get a foundational understanding of what we're talking about and then after that i'm going to focus in on what the dsi itself is actually going to do so practically speaking what are our focus points and what is it that we we think we can contribute on um and help solve for so that that in a high level is uh some of the the points will cover uh for the first three i don't have any slides so it's just going to be a conversation and then for for the fourth and the first item there's a few slides but not too many so hopefully not death by power points if you will and so uh so let's start with the first one um i'm off with cala and i lead the dsi initiative working for the icc i started my professional career about 15 years ago as a technologist a job a two developer um absolutely love technology and all of the various things that can enable and i look at my career and i feel like i've had two chapters to it the first chapter was specifically focused on enabling solutions for organizations where we digitize a lot of the processes within a company and there's things like records management or business process management a lot of fun the second part of my journey i moved out of technology and into a commercial division of php and over there i focus on quite a lot of cool stuff too whether it was rnd looking at blockchain analytics and a few other elements um and when the dsi our role opened up on the internet i looked at that and went this is perfect yeah it's a challenge that we've all been trying to solve for in different ways and hopefully it's something that i can help contribute uh towards and so who's the icc why why the icc what what really interested me in it uh it's not an organization that i think a lot of technologists are familiar with so i'm going to spend us a minute or two just on that the icc is the institutional representative of 45 million companies globally now why why do i mention that i think it's important when you look at us not to think of us as coming from any specific company or even industry our focus is helping companies across all the various industries are be successful so that's the first thing so we have quite a big scale when it comes to our membership counts and the second thing that i think is very important to also know is that we're not but specifically focus on any specific country or region we're over a hundred different countries globally and so that immediately gives us both you know from a membership but also country perspective scale to be a cross industry and cross regional challenges and helping businesses succeed in that context and so when we think about the icc from a capability perspective they already have standard you know we have products like incoterms and eucp and a few others that already help fuel trade globally on an annual basis and so we both have scale the icc has scale but it also has capabilities for for creating standards and bringing people together and so that gives you a little bit of a view of the icc the third item is the dsi so that's the icc if that's the scale and capability well what's the dsi and in nacho if you've seen the press basically what we're going to try and do is we're going to try and harmonize all the various platforms out there today and i'm going to talk a little bit about that later in the session our view is that there's a lot of great digital platforms and these have been enormously instrumental in helping build resilience especially during a pandemic enabling a lot of people to already transition off paper and trade and onto electronic platforms the challenge though is when we actually get to some of these complex environments business networks where you know firstly you're executing across different regions and maybe you have thousands of customers and some of them have their own platforms it becomes challenging to operate in that landscape and we'll touch a bit on that but fundamentally the dsi it's not that we're going to build a new platform we want to produce standards and we want to produce the standards that people can pick up almost like a sort of business requirements and contribute into that landscape um and remove some of the boundaries and the barriers that that exist today and we'll touch a bit more on that but that in a nutshell is both me technologist by heart the icc global scale global reach across various industries and the dsi our super powerless standards and we want to have all of you succeed by seeing your membership numbers go up volumes go up and all of that so i am for those on the call who are fully familiar with trade processes please bear with me this is going to be very high level and it really is just for people who don't have appreciation of some of the complexity so that when we actually talk a bit about those enablers that the dsi is going to solve for we have some form of understanding of of the environment that we're operating in and so these aren't the most beautiful slides but imagine it's a whiteboard and i drew some of these on the whiteboard so when i talk to a lot of people especially uh people in the tech sector they view trade as basically just an activity between a buyer and a seller and that the easiest way to solve it is to get uh you know all the sellers to uh get all their buyers onto a platform the same platform and then boom you know bob jonkel you can execute trade and while there's a lot of use cases where that is exactly that's how it works that's relevant uh when it actually comes to international trade it's a little bit more complex and so if i have a look at the next picture this is the the purpose of this is just to give you a little bit of an overview of the various different actors that might be involved when you actually execute trade firstly you'll see there's two banks so you might have a nomination bank issuing bank etc as a part of that process there's different carriers different ports you might have different vessel operators so when you think about the activity of buying and selling it's not just between two entities there's actually quite a few players involved in that process that if you want them to participate in it uh potentially needs to have access to some of the information that it gets executed and shared throughout that process i think the second thing that's worth highlighting is that and it's something that a few of my previous colleagues were quite surprised that is the absolute quantity of documentation that's actually required in the process so it's not just an activity that happens without documentation there's some actual requirements behind it and a little stack that goes with it and there's quite an interesting history for example behind bill of lading and where it originated from and where it is today and and one can argue that a revolution is required in that space the second one is that a lot of countries and especially when you actually get to the port and you want to enter the country there's actually requirements to have physical documentation or our physical signatures as a part of that process now rule books and bilateral agreements and the platforms can solve for that but there's still a few countries like for example china where in theory you still need a physical bill of lading to actually execute a trade there and i think the third one is again if you just think about the complexity uh you know sellers can have sellers and buyers and ports that can all have their own individual platforms which uniquely catered to some of their use cases and requirements and you don't necessarily want to continuously go into a platform exit a platform into a platform exit a platform as you actually execute trade uh with a single customer and so i have just a few little notes here um so the first one is it would be perfect if everyone in this chain was on the same platform and just using it to execute a deal what we find though is an environment that's sometimes a little bit more complex where potentially a port might actually have its own platform that it would like you to leverage the second one is where some of the the the carriers like merc and they might have a platform as you know that also adds quite a lot of great benefits to the process and some of the carriers themselves might have it too um and some of the banks might have theirs and so i think the moral of this story is that it's not so much a landscape of a single entity with a single platform but more a ecosystem of different platforms doing different uh different sets of work great um in the in the landscape and so with that complexity in mind um it's not saying that there won't be one or two or three big platforms ultimately you know facilitating all trade it's just highlighting that sometimes it's a bit complex in the landscape where we find it today and you can see it in the numbers when we look at electronic bill of lading adoption globally it's still in the single digits and when we think about our journey that we've done there is when it comes to non blockchain platforms we've invested about two to three decades in that journey and when it comes to blockchain itself there's about a half a decade into and to those technologies and so the upside is there's still a lot of growth there's still a lot of our opportunity for all of us to actually contribute into that space which i think is very valuable now that is a big point of all those previous uh slides was just to again touch on the fact that it's a little bit more complex it's not just about a buyer and salivating on the same platform there's a lot of different uh you know parties involved a lot of documentation and there's also a legislative element to it so what i'm going to do now is i'm going to spend a little bit of time on just what we believe some of the key elements are that we want to address as a part of the icc dsi um and uh yeah let's see how that goes so so where does this list of six come from when i got the role about four weeks ago five weeks the icc was already executing workshops with you know different groups of people to kind of get an understanding of what are some of the challenges when it comes to digitization and trade and so a lot of great work came out of that that highlighted the need for a few elements as an example and for operable rule books could be one of them um in addition to that i've probably i don't want to use the number because the number will always be wrong but let's say i've i've engaged about 50 different organizations in various different industry sectors to get a sense from them how are their projects going what's working what's not working and more importantly what do they believe the icc can bring to this challenge of scale getting scale when it comes to digitization of trade and we've landed on six items um quite big but six nonetheless and what i'll do is i'll briefly touch on each of them and give you a little bit of a flavor of what they are and and some of them even an update on what our thinking is at the moment now reach out to me i'm on linkedin um you know feedback really is a gift the last thing we want to do is set off on a journey and a year later have someone go ah we kind of knew that this is you know this other element is needed um so please do reach out it's going to be very valuable anyway so if we look at the six the very first one is we need to unify some of the digital digital standard efforts across the globe so when i approach it from let's say developer angle it's quite hard to know what's actually happening in the standard landscape and what can i actually just pick up and use we see that isos are a part of you know the process of creating standards and blockchain but every single industry also has a consortia trying to solve for different blockchain activities some of the larger multi-lateral organizations are also investing and and setting up standards and then you also have some development banks globally seeding activity when it comes to creating standards and governance so the very first thing we're going to do is simplify that landscape a little bit make it easier for people to know what's actually happening and where make it easier for people who actually are going to be leveraging the standard to know where can they actually go and participate and and and engage and also where it makes sense harmonize some of that effort to ensure that if someone in the shipping space for example is already solving for the chronicle of lading standards you know we don't necessarily need to do that 10 times so let's find a more constructive way of actually approaching that the second one and this is a big one in my mind at least is the legislative reforms needed there's a model law called mletr the model law for electronic transferable records that unicetral has created and it's a beautiful model law it actually enables when countries adopted for us to solve a lot of the challenges we have today when it actually comes to the acceptance of digital records internationally so it's been adopted by a single country and there's a huge upside in if we can get more countries to adopt it it's going to even help with some of the complexity we have in the rule books and the various platforms and so this is an area where we believe as the ICC we can uniquely go and really push and work with companies and work with governments around the world to see how do we actually accelerate that adoption fully appreciate that you know it might take three four or five years to get some of the larger trade nations or the larger strategic trade routes in the world on board but that's fine as long as we know who's that that we're targeting how are we going to enable them and how are we progressing and so you'll see a lot of our energy and attention is going to go into that and you'll be the beneficiary of a lot of that work the third one before I get to the actual standards themselves is on the rulebook side there's a lot of non-blockchain and blockchain platforms out there today that facilitates for similar processes with similar documents documentation behind it and they make up for the lack of legal harmonization globally by having everyone agree to a single rulebook and that provides a really good legal foundation for people to execute it and so the question that we have as the ICC and it's going to be one of the first sprints that we do is when we bring everyone together in a room is there an ability for us to actually create a rulebook that is interoperable that different platforms can leverage and can actually when you technically integrate the platform you can start a trade process on one platform and end settlement and another platform and so might be difficult but it's definitely something we need to focus on and see how do we get that done now these three items are still very much on the legal side and and just you know orchestration getting everyone in the in the room and focus that the next three items on our scope is going to be the ones and I almost refer to them as and I hate to say this but it's almost like business requirement specifications so at the highest level so number four is how do we do cross industry standards for elements that are applicable across industry and so an example of that could be legally our legal entities as an example when you go to the different platforms today or even the different consortia that are focusing on solving for some of these trade challenges today one of the things a lot of them are focused on is well how do we define identity in our context and there's a lot of value if we can actually take identity and solve for that at a global scale as opposed to having it done in various different unique ways on within the different platforms now good news is there's already a lot of great work being done and so there's for example Gleaf as there's Swift has back and there's quite a few other options on the table and the big set of work is really how do we get all of that together how do we workshop and really figure out what will work when it comes to legal identity itself so not vehicle because that's already been solved but legal itself and and then how do we how do we translate that into a standard that can be applied in scale the benefit would be enormous that's one example if I think about number five so four is cross industry data points number five for us is looking at industry specifically and so you know you have the shifters you have commodity etc and the question in my mind is how do we make sure that we're solving for some of these these challenges in a way that are scales and so I'll give you an example when you go to some of the the consortium outside of shipping they're also solving for electronic pool of lading when you go to like the DCSA's website there's a initiative solving for electronic pool of lading you know Merck has electronic pool of lading and so is there an opportunity for us here to actually go and standardize the information architecture and governance around something like an evil and how do we ensure that more platforms can actually leverage electronic pool of lading in the future and not less and so again this is going to be one of the areas where we're going to have to work with a lot of players and hopefully even members on this call to say how do we solve this a is is it required and b if it is required what's the solution now to be very transparent there's a reason I use identity and electronic pool of lading as the two examples and the reason for that is most of the exporter and porter companies that I've been speaking to in the last four weeks have highlighted those as two key areas that if we could address that as a starting point would probably help alleviate some of the challenges that they are facing today the final one and to me this I'm not too concerned about number six because I think that's the simpler one to potentially do which is is there an opportunity for us to actually create standards when it comes on a platform level so for example API gateways or you know how do we do asset exchanges or communication and we already have ISO tc 307 for example focusing on some of the blockchain specific standards and the question is are there any other opportunities is there anything else that needs to be solved for so that someone who steps out of college if they wanted to create a platform and they wanted to create an application that can contribute to the trade landscape they can pick up a bunch of standards produce a platform and it can both connect to the existing landscapes they can pick up standards on identity and goes this is how I deal with identity pick up standards for all the other type of content that's required through the trade process and and continue their contribution and so these are in summary when you think about the ICC DSI these are the six key areas that we believe we can uniquely focus on and we can help are worth now in closing I have a few key principles that I want to share the first one is we don't want to reinvent the wheel if we have to go and reinvent the wheel for a lot of the activity and the definition that has already been done by consortia or even by platform owners themselves it's going to take me another two to three years just to get to where a lot of you are already at and so the whole objective is not to start from zero it's to start from from within every industry there'll be a different starting point the second one is the DSI itself is all about standard production so it's not that I'm interested in building a platform that now is going to you know if I get all the buys and sellers onto a boom and for profitability is solved for no my core product is going to be working with people finding where do we actually create standards that people can pick up produce solutions that ultimately scale anyway so I do apologize for that big monologue but that in a nutshell is the talk for today high level overview on trade and that it's more complex than just two parties are engaging each other lots of documentation required there's a legal angle and these are the six key areas that we will be focusing on if you want to contribute in any of it please reach out to me I am on LinkedIn or reach out to anyone in the FIG the SIG I'm pretty sure they know how to to navigate to myself and so that is it for us for today any thoughts comments or questions Julian what's your thoughts I think it's excellent thank you and it's a great initiative so you started only five six weeks ago is that what you were saying yes where were you all this time you were missing in hibernation you know it's actually quite interesting Julian and I had a similar conversation a few years ago and so it was a little bit easy getting to this point so I have to I have to admit that and it looked easy I think it's going to be a lot of hard work and it's going to also take a level of maturity and so I'll give you an example I spoke to you know you speak to a few commodity players and you go look you know you need evil but it's not necessarily something you have to solve for yourself it's something that potentially another industry can do and as long as we can leverage that we'll finally get to scale and I so I see a big part of my role is also just orchestrating making sure the right people are having the right type of conversation and that we're optimizing what we're solving for so yeah so it's been four weeks Julian I think almost five weeks now to be quite honest I call it four weeks because we didn't do the public announcement until the GTR conference about four weeks of engagement cool cool cool here we go yeah exactly I would just to make my comments I really love the these initiatives for basically one reason it's I think it's giving a very comprehensive approach from 360 degrees on on all the different areas that are embracing in terms of the digitalization of international trades not just from technology point of view but also from legal point of view that actually is my background uh trade uh from standards from technology so I think it's this is uh what the institution needs in driving this change of so of a new approach of these uh technology DLT in general uh because I've seen uh I mean we were discussing also with Barma recently a new approach to solve these issues is coming and it is and it is national approach and it's more oriented on organization on national and government that has to take the lead and embracing different kind of DLT project for capital market for trade and for other solutions for supply chain and blah blah blah so I really love because I think this is a great and concrete example of what the government needs and I mean the go if the government takes the leads so we for sure we're gonna have a further and quicker implementation in the future yeah thank you and and I think it's it's everyone using the capabilities that they have as a part of the puzzle pieces right and so when you think about a lot of the work and I think again about the work that our tool and then did on DLT ledgers in the announcement we saw this week you know everyone has their unique capabilities and they can do really great work and so I feel like and someone asked me yesterday whether or not you know why digital standards are are now such a topic or conversation and my my view was actually I don't think digital standards is a topic or conversation I think digital is with the pandemic it has highlighted the power that a lot of these platforms that people like yourselves have built and without these platforms we would have been in a lot of pain today secondly because of a lot of the great innovation and work that's already been done when we saw all of these fraud cases pop up it wasn't too long after that when we saw DLT ledgers go boom you know yeah is a way to solve for it and so all of those great capabilities are already solving from for a lot of these use cases where the ICC needs to come in though as say how do we help scale how do we help two different and I think about these two people I think about the developer and I think about the executive if I'm a developer where can I actually go in this landscape of standards to pick up the stuff that I can almost use like business requirements to build a platform that contributes value and and how do we make that easier so we can get even more innovation going and so that we don't have people locked out just because they let me not even go into that but there's a few barriers today the second thing is I'm thinking about the executive who's sitting there going and whether it's for a small company or a large one I want to join one of these platforms but I don't necessarily have the manpower to go convince all of my my customers or all of my banks or whoever to get onto this platform and so when we have interoperability when we have standards that enable it it makes that decision so much easier they can look at the solutions ago I really like this one because it's innovative because it's solved for all the things I want and I now know that if my customers on a different platform I can still get that value and I don't have to worry and I can get into and processing so sorry I can go up on a tangent you guys need to stop me but this is what excites me and I see two steps I see a evolutionary step and a revolutionary step the evolution is let's just get people of paper it's been one it's been far too long and we still have way too many for example electronic bulls of lading floating around I mean bulls of lading floating around so there is an evolutionary step that's required but as you all know and I don't have to convince you blockchain will enable the revolution it will enable us to rethink how we do a lot of these activities it will change some of the services that we can have it will uniquely contribute to the trade gap it was 1.5 trillion dollars just the other day I think it's now sitting at 3 trillion dollars people being excluded from trade blockchain can bring new new partners into it so yeah so I'm quite excited I'm quite excited and I think we have a key part to play as the ICC. Thank you Oswald thanks for for this I mean you said it all I just wanted to add something but you did yourself I mean trade gap the revolutionary aspect of blockchain it's going to be you know a big revolution and this is definitely from a trade finance specialist definitely this is what the industry needs for if it doesn't want to die folks because certain aspects are quite critical and this moment there isn't a crisis I tell you from a prediction practitioners situation can no longer go on this way so we do need the evolution of course but the revolution is even more essential in my opinion we do need to revolutionize the cities the products and everything that follows you know it's a it's a long-term history you know dating back to renaissance now let's let's go further with respect to these so does anybody else want to to ask anything to Oswald? Yes if I can ask a question hi Oswald it's Joe from China Systems we've been corresponding on LinkedIn a little bit well first of all I think I like your approach you know it's you have to start a high level because you got quite a challenge on your hands yeah I think the picture you withdraw with all the existing platforms the world today there's a lot of platforms in place so I think portable digital identity and portability of documents I think are going to be key to actually to enable all those platforms to actually offer their functionality no one it may take a while as you said yourself there may be some dominant platforms after a while but to start off we need to to enable this portability of trade documents now there's one key question I have for you the DSR scope or standards because I'm a strong believer although I've been working in trade for 32 years I've always been seeing electronic invoicing invoice is in any trade transaction document the invoicing and traditional trade do you believe you should also look at for the Joe your reception is a little bit bad are you asking whether invoicing should be a part of the focus sorry yes electronic invoicing do you also be a part of the standards I think that's a great question and I don't just say that because you know they tell you to say every question is a great question it really is so when you think about the trade process one of the first things we did was I have a pros overview of everything from the actual initial commercial contract where everything originates from all the way to warehouse receipts as an example and even invoicing and so a lot of these are going to be instrumental and we will have to look at how do we actually solve for some of these what we're going to do in our first sprint though and so I'll share that once we've got into a little bit more maturity I'll share that overview and what's also good about that overview it also shows people what are some of the existing standards today that are actually applicable to some of these documentation which I also think is quite useful for people to know our first sprint at the moment the thinking is that we want to do almost like quarterly sprints and see how what can we achieve in a quarter and the viewers that we might start with identity first as a foundation and get all of the right people into a room and focus on that it's also one of the most challenging ones so I think I'm going to lose all my hair but we will have a feeling of complexity at the end of that quarter by the way my dad has no hair so I'm pretty sure that's where I'm going to end up and the second one is electronic bill of lading just purely because I'm so passionate about it I see so many people focused on electronic bill of lading and I would love to see what have we done as both a blockchain industry over the last three four years and also the traditional platforms that already have the members and the volume and get a sense of those two and once we've seen how good we are at that potentially then expanding on to some of the other use cases but that's going to potentially be our starting point Joel I hope that answered the question is the document to be solved I mean it is the most critical one in the process due to the complexity of the document itself variety so first of all I would start from there I mean it's electronic bill of lading under an EU perspective for example or Singapore maybe I don't know the regulation up there it is partly already solved a real core is in the bill of lading and in some other documents when you have to issue for the document that's real core the complexity of lading so first I would agree with that I agree with that Andrea but I think I think you've worked in data strategy Oswald so bill of lading at the rural or if you have a ship with letters of instruction and SLI the SLI again sources some of its daily voice so looking at things in isolation is I understand why you're doing it but from a data strategy point of view you need to look at where does that data and that bill of lading originate so you can't close your eyes for the the key standards that live in in the source level and the invoice plays an important role because it flows into an SLI and these life flows into a bill of lading I'm not saying this I mean you have to focus on where to start from a scene of the global procedures in in trade that's right attitude step by step the real but the real problem is in sorting out the real a bill of lading that's the core then you have to look at the whole process as a streamlined process I agree with you it's not a problem the real core in my opinion is in the bill of lading due to the complexity of the document itself and so to me to me what's exciting right Andrea and Joel is I almost look at it is if you have identity evil and invoicing soulful can you imagine the amount of fraud that you firstly get out of the system too can you imagine the amount of efficiency that you get into the system the amount of times that that trade can't actually transition and this is also where the rule books are important because you need to solve from a data perspective right but you also need to solve for it from a legal rate you know either the country needs to to to adopt you into trials model or all we need to get rule books that can actually become interoperable and actually enable the practicality of movement of those those data types now Joel I don't necessarily have a full appreciation of the invoice itself and so what I think we need to do is actually have a session and I'll going to find you on the link then and the messaging and schedule some time with you so we can actually dive into it because I do want to make sure that there's not an opportunity that we might be missing um and I think uh you know it definitely deserves a larger conversation definitely you touched on the last uh that the widespread adoption of model laws that don't explicitly to have a widespread adoption maybe of technology and to homogenize let's say so the different national legislation so the very first challenge is also model laws how to widespread adoption that's real core my opinion to me that's foundational and for those who are on the core who don't necessarily fully appreciate the model law conversation what it basically is is today if you go to various different countries they still require you to have a physical bill of lading or a wet signature uh when it actually comes to the transferral of title and so the challenge that model laws ultimately solve for and it's literally as a copy and paste um it's a model law that countries can take and adopt that actually solves for the whole legal um uh validity if you will of uh digital documentation so it enables you to actually use a digital documentation as if it was a physical in a digital world and and execute your process and what makes the model laws great is again as so as countries don't have to start at zero they can literally take the model law and and start uh you know the the the process of applying it which is normally about a two to three year process and to um Andrea's point and that's one of the reasons we have it as number two is our view is if we can spearhead the adoption of model law for electronic transferable records it's going to solve for a lot of different use cases that even today's rule books don't solve for and so there's a lot of energy and activity that that needs to go into that it's massively important definitely definitely agree with you as well uh I have experienced this you know not to stress this fact but you know when you go to Africa when you go to Middle East when you go to certain parts of the world they didn't even know what an electronic record is they only do this with papers regional and copies that's the real problem they don't care so you have a source of operating infrastructure obliging forcing local activities to be carried out in compliance with the model laws that's the challenge um to be to be won I mean by the ICC primarily to step in a sort of upper institution uh in some countries you don't even start customs operation without physical documents both invoices and especially bills of lady that's why I was stressing this fact of the bill of lady look at a global process but stops from these days in documents slash electronic records that's challenge that's I think I totally agree with I don't know anybody else wants to add any further comments Julian form mark yeah no I think um I think Oswald first of all welcome to the role and um for me I went gray not bald so good luck with that one um so have fun with the with the hair but but certainly um for me it's refreshing um because we're getting dsi to get those guiding rails in place which is converging converging themes technologies processes so we do make trade more frictionless and it plays well to some of the studies that we've done uh which we can share so I think it's refreshing that you've got this converging theme and sitting guide rails in place um yeah it's not easy and Joel's just highlighted a couple of elements where the devil's in the detail but exactly this is where feedback collaboration is going to be a key theme to deliver the vision of dsi so looking forward to joining you on the journey I know that most of the guys on the call have been looking at this and then having this uh you be the north star and we can start looking in a common direction I think it's going to be a good way forward so yeah looking forward to it uh thank you form I really appreciate it and a final note just from my side my my big objective is not to have a dsi empire with like a hundred different people and you know feeling awesome about myself it's really about using the capabilities in our businesses we're the world business organization and so as you look at that scope and the work we're trying to do if you feel like you have capabilities that can actually help you know let us know um it's going to if if we're not inclusive this won't work we you know you need the capabilities from the different industries from the different technology platform owners um specifically to solve for this you know I'm going to pause there before I go off on another tangent but thank you palm I'm I'm excited yeah has has anybody else got any any other um questions I think one for it go ahead at all and no no no I I didn't have any questions so so I think the other thing that we can talk about is uh is what can we do as a sick how can we help you in this journey which I think is an awesome awesome presentation is how can we do I mean I talk about identity so there's a lot of more stuff around the self-sovereign identity and other things uh you know talk about Joel who's got some interesting stuff maybe we could have a talk here and Joel can get for a share amongst us all right about uh uh Ian voicing how can we help you in this journey on this platform that we have so two questions there so on the invoicing I would love that actually the more the merrier so that will be fantastic there's a second on your question on how can we all help each other the advice I give people is think a bit about each of you what is your superpower whether it's your company your platform or even just your own capabilities have a look at those six areas that we will be contributing into from an ICC perspective and where you see either your your company's capabilities being able to solve for things where you go we've already solved for evil or we already have something that can do invoicing or we we already have something that does identity you know let me know again my if I started zero for all of those streams it's going to take me another three years to get to where some of you are already at so I think that is what my ask would be is think about those six items think about where you can play and let's let's highlight that I'm not sure if that's specific enough Julian but that really is I think the best way that we can get help at at the ICC on this brilliant any comments from anyone else I think you've picked out two identity and EBL right and it sounds like we may have invoice as well those are the kind of areas that you're looking for as a not quick win because I don't sure that anything's a quick win right but as as an error of a focus yeah I was going to say Julian I think that from a from a sick point of view and we've touched on it already the fact that the outlook is one for inclusion and for collaboration meaning on the other side that it things have to be open and they have to be in a form and a shape that at the core has interoperability built into things as Oswald was saying from a from a from a an evolution to a revolution but the the dynamic or the optic which I thought was really interesting which I think where the sync could come in is when you're looking at it Oswald from as you said the executive and the developer point of view and that developer community point of view has to be open source and with that in mind I think Julian and Andrea Eugenio and Attle from a sick point of view for Hyperledger that's an angle where there's a whole portfolio of open source capabilities that will be the building blocks potentially for what could be you know this method of having this this unified platform with a rule book but I think the technology from a developer point of view of open source capabilities I think is one angle to have a look at that makes sense yep makes sense yes definitely we should join I mean look at ourselves and see how we can go on with this and very soon I guess so anybody else would like to step in the discussion and give this point of view as questions yeah so it's Kevin here from Kevin Gil CTO IBM one of the observations I've made I spent a lot of time in insurance and insurance has very good standards across it things like the Accord standard so it's easy to join up products in the shipping space I've worked to the beginning of the year on a a shipping solution and there aren't a lot of standards so this initiative to actually bring standards together not only for documentation but for how organizations talk to each other will be huge across the blockchain world and is something that I would welcome I think one of the other things is around a trade execution dossier quite often you find that at some stage in the journey there are some questions about the documents the completeness and we you've talked Oswald a lot about the legal side of it and I think one of the reasons I'm on the call and sakebe as well is at some stage we quite like to come to this session and actually talk through what proof of trust does in dispute resolution because particularly around a shipping trade execution dossier or any trade agreement rather than just digitally forming a smart contract actually bringing in some legal SME expertise or external SME expertise is quite relevant so certainly outside of this I'll have a conversation with Oswald but sakebe will probably chip in in a minute it will be only too pleased to actually talk about what we bring with sakebe delivering the the IP and approach and IBM delivering the technology behind it we'd be quite keen to talk about how dispute resolution plays in this space absolutely Kevin thank you for introducing the proof of trust to the group and I'm very pleased to meet everybody here I think Kevin's touched on a number of points there which are quite relevant to introducing more efficient legal services or arbitration services into you know commerce and trade digitization I think we've seen technology over the past five years push business technology ahead of any kind of curve that we expected but now we're seeing certainly in a covid world the encumbrances of more traditional or legacy processes and I think that's where proof of trust has kind of seen this opening in the market that if we're to encourage global trade we have to ensure that all the efficient processes around this system for the actual transaction itself are digitized and that's certainly where proof of trust sees itself it sees itself being an enabler connecting networks through one mission which is to provide faster better fairer adjudication and we enable that through blockchain so we'll be really happy to contribute and have further discussions about it I don't want to take up everyone's time today I know that we're reaching a close but certainly proof of trust would like to contribute a little bit to this and share some of our thinking and some of our experience I'd love to hear more maybe that's the next session yes we should line you up Shakip thank you for that and Andrea we should discuss that offline absolutely yes we'd be grateful to to contribute thank you and mindful of the time it's already close to an hour so anything else Andrea before we close the call no that's all for my side of Oswald for his time he's a great job looking for what's going on with everybody available and we'll see you again in two weeks time yeah in the boring world of ICC Oswald is a fresh sense so thank you so much for bringing the excitement into ICC thank you we're gonna change the world we're gonna change the world excellent thank you everybody take care