 We're back. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech. It's the four o'clock block. And we're talking about shopping centers. And it's a rhetorical question. Our shopping centers had an end in America. And there are indications of that. And Stephanie Sophos is the real estate diva that we followed through the years. And she has appeared many times on Think Tech. And today we would like to talk with her about shopping centers and malls here in Hawaii and elsewhere. Welcome to the show, Stephanie. So nice to see you. Thank you, Jay. It's always nice to see you. So what's going on? I mean, you know, we opened Alamoana, didn't we? And people are going down there, aren't they? And then I guess that turns the whole thing on. Or does it? No. I mean, everything's, it's going to be slow to come back. And a lot of tenants are hurting. Some won't come back. There'll be a lot of tenants who just won't reopen. Yeah, that's a concern. You know, when you shop retail, you expect the retailer to stay around. When you buy something from a given seller, whether it's retail or online, you expect that retail to stay around. Because if it doesn't stay around, you can't get service, you can't get it again. You don't have anybody to call and complain to and all that. So you want constancy, you want continuity in retail. What are the indications though? I mean, how do you know this? How do you know that some of those retailers are not going to stay around? You know, your mom and pops, your local people are having the hardest because your national and international retailers, they have a scale of economies that they can survive. And when one store is hurting and another store is doing well, they can balance their budget by their numbers. But when you have a small mom and pop store and only has one or two shops, if things go bad and you're not, and you can't open and you're down for three, four months, but you still have rent to pay, which is something we need to talk about, you don't have the depth of cash. Even the really wealthy national retailers and international, they might have a billion dollars in assets, but they don't have a billion dollars in cash. So they're kind of hurting and scale it down to your local retailers, they're not going to survive. And the restaurants, my God, you'll probably see 60% of the restaurants fail in the next six months. So yeah, I'm sorry. The whole thing about reopening is sort of dissolving into we call it pause and pause could easily, we had 47 cases today. This is not good in Hawaii. Yeah, but they're not, how many are dying? I think we've only had 19. No idea, no idea. Yeah, 19. This way less, but it could be greater. We'll see. The more cases, the more risk. But let me say this though, you talk about shopping centers and you talk about mom and pops. In both cases, the landlord has all the leverage and the landlord says to this prospective tenant, except maybe a national tenant, he says, I want your guarantees. I want mom and pop and I want the owners of this local business in my shopping center to guarantee and they have no choice but to guarantee if they want to come in, they have to sign. And so now you have a guarantee and you have a default and you have a big delinquency. I mean, even two or three months at the rates they charge and say Alamoana or even in some of the other smaller properties, it's a huge amount of money and it falls on the individuals. And now you have a second tier, like a waterfall, the second tier and these people are going to wind up with a judgment against them because that, you know, nobody is going to be forgiving about this. They got their, what do you call it, fiduciary obligations to go after the guarantor and they do. The guarantor really has no defenses. I mean, are there any defenses that a guarantor could put up? This is where the government has to get involved and it's going to be, it's going to, unfortunately, it's going to take a few years. But how can you, as a landlord, demand 100% of rent when you're mandated by the government that you can only be 30 or 50% open? You know, you can't use your store 100%. And the government has mandated that you close down. So how are you obligated to a landlord? And right now they are because there's nothing, there are no pandemic clauses and leases and no one expected any of this to happen. So it has to change. It has to change. And right now, it should be, the landlords should be negotiating and they should, but see the landlords are tied. They build a shopping center for let's say $500 million. And they base it on getting an annual return of rent. And so when the rent and the, the, the, the banks will allow them to borrow based on that rent. And so when that rent goes down, that affects their ability to pay. And they're not going to lower the rents on the tenants because that would affect their, their obligations with the, the banks. So it, it's a change. It's a, it goes down the line. And the banks are not forgiving to the landlords. It's just like in the residential, you know, Governor E. Gay has said, oh, no, there is going to be no eviction. Well, if you don't pay the tenant doesn't pay, how is that landlord going to pay his mortgage? He's got a mortgage. If he goes into default and they say, well, there's, there's a recovery. The banks will let you pay down the line. That doesn't mean anything to someone like me or you. You still have, you're still obligated under your mortgage to pay. And who's going to pay? And how do you get your tenant out to get somebody new to pay? It's very, very complicated. How it reminds me of something that was reported in New York, maybe 30, 45 days ago about how tenants were banding together, as people do, and going on rent strikes. And even tenants who could afford the rent were going on rent strikes and they weren't paying the rent. This was their way of, I don't know, protesting that domino thing. And landlords in many cases, the landlords were by the skinner of the teeth. You own a small, you know, apartment building, you own a small, you know, three or four storey apartment building. You don't have a lot of resources. It's your, it's your stash. That's your, that's your big legacy right there. And if your tenants aren't paying you, you can't pay your mortgage on it. Now the whole thing begins to collapse. And actually the tenants are doing really well because they're not paying and the landlord doesn't have the money, the resources to go after them. Maybe he should or they, he should. But what you have is chaos, chaos in the marketplace and the banks are the ones, I gotta say, the banks are the ones left holding the bank because they can't collect on that, on that mortgage. Then what happens then? What happens when the banks can't collect? What do they do? They will fur clothes and then they'll sell the assets for 10, 15 cents on a dollar. There's a lot of people who have cash right now. I mean, look, Warren Buffett has had 100 and what was 185 billion dollars in cash or no, no, I'm sorry, a million, 185 million. And he just bought a whole petroleum company for 10 billion. So they have the money. There are people looking for deals and unfortunately you're going to see several and another year or so, you're going to see several major people die. Look at that. So the, an example is Tubman who built, excuse me, who built international marketplace. Tubman was in contract to close with Simon. Simon is the biggest shopping center owners in the world. And it was a $3.5 billion transaction. As soon as this pandemic hit and Tubman's shopping centers went down the tubes in rents, Simon backed out. Now there's a major lawsuit as to make the deal happen because they say you're breaching your contract. And Simon said, hey, you guaranteed us X amount of rents and income and they're no longer there. And in the foreseeable future they won't be there. We want out. So now you're going to see Tubman who owns international marketplace, go into some real financial straits and the international shopping center, the international marketplace, that's a dead shopping center. It never should have been built at that size. But the ground rent with the Queen Emma Foundation was so high that they had to maximize the square footage and they built this monstrosity, this three-story monstrosity that will never, ever be successful. You can, I might, I might be dead and long gone 30 years from now before it does. It makes money, but it might not ever make money just like the Aloha Tower. Remember that fiasco in 1990? They said, oh, we're going to build this and people will come and they had the highest rents and it was maximum property and the developer had to pay so much. And how many times has been sold four times? And now they basically have written it off and they have HPU there. That's insanity to have a retail oceanfront property and you've got a university. That is the worst case scenario for retail establishments. Yeah, but that's an example of what could happen to shopping centers. When everything goes downhill and then you have a foreclosure of the mortgage to the shopping center owner and then you have the tenants they can't pay and the shopping center can't get new ones in. You have to change the use such as what happened in Aloha Tower. So here's Alamoana, it's got these problems. Palm Court is never going to work in this environment, in this economic environment, never. So the question is what happens? I try to visualize this, Stephanie, but I need your help. Well, what's going to happen is that the first thing they're going to do is build another big tower where Macy's is. That's the first thing you're going to do. Condos. Yeah, condos or condo hotels, whatever, because they have to utilize the space that's not being utilized. And if you have, and think about that, if you have a base of condominiums around you, then you have a direct market that will utilize your shopping. So they have right now Park Lane high-end, they have one Aloha Moana high-end, and if they build this one on the corner, they'll have three major condominiums that will have concierge who will go and shop for them and high-end. And that shopping center is very high-end. You need those kind of condos. And that's why Cacaaco, that whole foods that is down in Cacaaco, it's one of the best stores in the nation because all of those wealthier condominium owners are going right there and you can, well, you could, you could shop for your groceries and have dinner there. And that will be the case again. And Miramens, the restaurant was doing gangbusters. It was all the urban center, the village. But now you have another component that's happening in that there were 10,000 shopping centers in the United States. And about five years ago, they started to break down. And people didn't want to go to shopping centers. They wanted to go to specific places like their butcher, like, like our parents and grandparents did 50, 60 years, 100 years ago. And they wanted to go to the candy store and they wanted to go to the drug store. And so the department store started to go down, down, down. And the shopping center started to go down, down. And in many places, like in Colorado and North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, these shopping centers lost everything. They closed down the tenants, they resold and now they're residential projects. And that's going to happen too. It's going to happen. People don't want to go to shopping centers as much because they have the convenience of people of Amazon coming to them in two days. And a lot of people are afraid to go into big crowds. I mean, I have to say for myself personally, I'm never afraid of anything, but I am a little concerned in going to where masses are. Because I don't know how their hygiene is. I know my hygiene, but I don't know theirs. And I religiously wear my mask whenever I'm outside, except when I'm eating that. Eating is another issue. I mean, I bet the food court is empty right now. Well, they don't have, yeah. People are afraid. That's the other thing. We have to get past this. And people are getting sick with that pandemic. We see numbers are going up, but there are less people dying. So what's happening is the young people are getting it and not the older people. Because the older people who have the money are staying indoors. But how long is that going to last? When does it spike up where people are going to be dying again? Because their grandchildren are coming to visit them. Exactly. The young people may be invincible. They think they're invincible. But every time they have contact with somebody older and who with a compromised immune system or existing medical problems, they're not doing that person any service. And that's got to happen. It's got to filter through that way. It starts at one part of the demographic and works to the other. So I agree with you that the people with the money are the ones who are at home. And they're the ones who have to shop in order to keep Alamoana alive. But what you said a minute ago, Stephanie, it was interesting. So they're building condos. And that makes the assumption that condos are still marketable, that people still want to come here and buy a condo for astronomical money. And even though in the past, don't you agree that people bought those condos part of the reason they bought those condos was they could shop. Hawaii wasn't great. Sure, we have the beach and all that, but Hawaii was a great shopping destination. Now, sorry, it's not. So those condos still is valuable. Are they still insalable? Yeah, I think so. What I think is going to happen, Jay, is that you always ask me for predictions. What's going to happen is you're going to see a changing of the way we live. And for example, office space is a dead business. I can remember Andy Freelander talking 10, 15 years ago. We've got to build another high rise. We have to build it because we're going to be too saturated. We've built the first one bank building, and that was the last big one. And that was 10 years ago. We need to build Bill Bill Bill. And now what you see is 1132 Bishop, which had the U.S. Bankruptcy Court there. They're going to close that down as an office, and they're converting it to apartments and condominiums. So you're going to also see that happen with shopping centers. You're going to see the condos around the shopping centers do fine because it's easy to go shopping, but also to cocoon at home because you're going to have concierge service. So Instacard and Safeway delivery and Pizza Hut, those Uber Eats and Grab and Go, they're all going to do phenomenal business going forward. And it's a whole new type of model. And the people in these condominiums are also going to be down easy to walk to the beach and swim and then come home. What you're going to, and so you're also going to see more housing in your suburban areas grow because a lot of people want to get out of this city. So you're seeing across the mainland, New York, New York and Manhattan, it's like a ghost town. People are going to the Hamptons or running, they're going to Long Island, they're getting out of town as fast as they can. And the here what I've noticed is that the single family homes have not had any problems for lack of value. In fact, they're still going up. Your condominiums, your townhouses are doing all right. It's just that the more these condos, which are these bigger, more expensive, have a large space and you have large space and you can cocoon, you're going to be fine. It's where you go into these micro, like Howard Hughes is building these micro apartments and remember they were touting that three years ago that this is the living, the new way of living. We're going to have 300 square foot apartments and people are going to be dining out and eating out in the urban, it's the urban village and well, those are going to have some problems because you can't be there 24 seven with your wife and two kids and not kill each other. So that's going to happen. And you're going to say it's going to be a model that people are going to shift to whether they like it or not, whether they want to or not, it's going to happen. So talking so that what that says to me is that is that, you know, decent residential will will will prevail and that that's a market that, you know, we will be okay in. But what it also says is the retail guys just tracking it when you were saying, take Alamo Wana. Alamo Wana is going to have to shrink. Am I right? It's not going to go away completely. You know, that's an interesting because there will be some shops. Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. That's a very interesting question. Will Alamo Wana shrink? The Royal Hawaiian Shopping Center shrink to fit it. At one point it was 425,000 square feet. And they couldn't get the third floor to work. So they and the second floor was dead. So what they did is they started to cut the back end of the of the stores and use it for storage. So when you look at their GLA now they don't it's not 425 when it was built in 1986, 1984, something like that. It's now 350 or 70. They took out 50,000 square feet. 50,000 square feet is like a quarter of Palomal or like like Neil Valley Shopping Center. So it's a pretty good size center or half a Costco in Hawaii Kai's 50,000. So you can get the idea of the size. And so well, Alamo Wana, I don't know. I think that that's going to be an interesting play because again, they're so heavily dead, have so much heavily, heavily debt from them, from their mortgage, from their bankers. You know, Alamo Wana is now, geez, it used to be a million. It's a million four square feet of retail space, a million four. And then you have the the the office spaces around it. And so it's a it's a city within a city. Oh, yeah. And if you look at the value prior to COVID, and all that, say the end of 2019, it was several billion dollars. They've been building it all along. It's been every time you look another wing, another increment. Yeah, I'm concerned. I would be concerned for Alamo Wana, but they're so big, maybe they'll survive. But I know that a lot of the smaller people are going to survive. You know, the medical, the building, Alamo Wana building, they have mostly dentists and doctors, you're going to probably lose out of the dentists that are here, you probably lose 20% of them, 30%. Because their people are not going to go for their weekly or monthly, because people are again are afraid. And the people who have money are your older people. And if they are afraid and they want to cocoon, it's not that business. I'm really concerned for the mom and pops because the PPP is going to run out, will probably be another wave. But again, what I said a moment ago, the change of attitude, the change of thinking that the paradigm of the model is all going to shift. So even if they survive this whole pandemic thing, can they survive three, four, five years from now because the model will change? I don't know. I don't believe they will, but I'm hoping to be wrong. Well, I want to track on one thing you said earlier, and that is that people, aside from Amazon, you know, in the two day delivery phenomenon, which is going to change is changing, has already changed that world. You were talking about these small shops that people wanted to have like their parents had years ago, a local delicatessen, I don't know, a shoe shop, just a standalone. Do you see this is happening in a standalone? And if so, where? And what about those little little pocket shopping centers we have, aside from Alamoana, you know, all the way out in every little town, all the way to Waipahu, and East as well, those regional, what do you call it, regional shopping centers? What's going to happen to them? It's not the same phenomenon as Alamoana, and maybe it could accommodate those small, you know, old-fashioned shops. Where are they going to go? Yeah, well, again, you have regional shopping centers. You have Super Regional, which is in Alamoana, and then you go down to Regional, which is Winward Mall in Alamoana, and you go to Communities, which is Huai Kai, and Kapolei, and Niu Valley, and then you have retail centers, which are maybe three or four people, and I just lost you, are you still there? Yeah. Oh, I lost you, but you have three or four people that are in that retail center, and then you have, and so I think small retail centers will do okay. I think small retail centers will do okay. I'm concerned about your strip centers, your strip centers, where you have maybe five people, five retailers there. I don't know how they're going to go. I'm kind of questioning how that's going to happen. I do think that a lot of, like I think Kahala Mall is in for a real big change. I think a lot of their tenants are going to go out. I don't see how they're going to survive for the majority, because they just are too small and the rents are too high. They're going to have to really lower their rents, which is what's going to be hard, and I don't know what the bargaining position is. We have yet to see the way that works out. I mean, for example, when you were talking before about the contracts, what about act of God? That enters into this conversation, doesn't it? Is coronavirus an act of God? Could it be? Has anybody made that argument? Certainly, there's no reference to coronavirus in any of these lease documents or mortgage documents, but there's always a reference to act of God. Yeah, I think that's, well, that's been question right now. I mean, is a pandemic an act of God? Everybody's, people are wondering about that. I don't know. I mean, I certainly think any new lease being written today is going to have some type of clause about the pandemic, or even government influence. I mean, when a government comes in and steps in and takes your, closes you down forcefully, closes you down. That isn't a big issue. That's a huge issue. And I really feel for the retailers, how, and I've talked to retailers and I've said, has the landlord given you a break? Has he discounted your rent? Has he given you, has he said that you're going to, is he going to take off your percentage? What is he going to do? And every, everyone, everyone, and I've talked about 12 and different retail places, we are not going to get a discount. They are going to defer the three months or four months and tack it on to the back end of our lease. And so we didn't have to pay for these three months, but we'll have to pay for those three months after our lease expires. It automatically will be extended for three months. Well, that might have, that's not going to help a retailer. It really doesn't help them, especially when you're still mandated to only have 10 people in your store or use 50% of your store, or in the cases of bars and restaurants, what is it, 30%? She has so many questions. So one question is, what, what do you think of for planning purposes, the percentage of old business you need to have for retail, for restaurants, in order to stay in business? You know, I mean, it wouldn't be 5%, you couldn't do that. And it probably wouldn't be 10 or 15 or 20%, maybe, maybe 30%, 40%. Where's the break even to allow you to stay in business in terms of revenue that you used to have? That's a tough question. But you know, in restaurants, it's they go, they have to maximize the capacity because in the food, food doesn't really make them money. You know that food is only, there's no real profit in food. It's they make their money in the alcohol. And, and when you're when you can only use 30% of your self, most people need 100% of their store in order to make a profit 100%. So when you're down to 30%, you're not making a profit. You're losing money. I talked to a restaurant yesterday, a restaurant. Last year, they were doing $500,000 month in sales. In June of last year, they did $500,000 in sales. They did, they did for June of this year, $135,000. They did, they are projecting the for June, July of last year, they did $600,000. They're projecting for this month, if they can, if they make $200,000, they'll be lucky. It's a large restaurant. I said, are you making money? He said, we're believing, we're believing because you have to have the thing that people don't understand is that even though you have 30% of your restaurant operating in the, in the front of the house, where people are sitting, you still have to have 100% of the back of the house operating. You still have to have your dishwasher. You still have to have your bus service. You still have to have your cook or your chef or your sous chef or your, your, your dessert queen. You know, it just, you cannot make it and you're paying for all these people full time to be there. And then now you have, they have these new restrictions and precautions that they're mandated and how they clean. So that takes another person full time to do the cleaning. So it's very costly and you're operating at 35%. Your, your gross sales are 35% of what you were making. We all know you're going to, you're going to be dead in another couple of months. You can't do it. You know, in the best of times, it was always a long shot to make a restaurant work and most of them don't work. Everybody has high expectations. They go in because they like food and they go and make a restaurant and, and so many of them fail. I'm sure you've seen that. So really what, you know, what, what I get out of this is if somebody came to you, Stephanie, then said, look, I really like food. I think this is a great opportunity. I want to, I want to get into a restaurant. I know a lot of them are failing, but I think, you know, the, there's an opportunity in, in the, in the transition here. I want to do a restaurant, Stephanie. What would you tell them? Run, run fast, run hard, just run away. You know, the other aspect is if, you know, if you work with shopping centers and leasing in shopping centers, and one of the big things is, is tenant mix and to give the impression to people who come in, that this is a robust, active, you know, experience in here and there's so much going on and to draw them in and, and draw the money out of their wallets and all that stuff, that if you walk into a shopping center, you know, and a third or, or more of the, of the shops and restaurants are closed, that has the opposite effect, doesn't it? Oh yeah, people are going to think, well, you know, what's going on here? Why is it not working? Why are people not here? What's wrong? What's wrong? You know, you said about the restaurants. So historically, restaurants, out of 10 restaurants, starting in one year, six of them would fail within the first six months. Now that's historical information that hasn't changed in 25 years. And then you, so six out of them would fail and out of those, so the before left and two of them would fail within the first three years. So that's eight. And the fifth, the other two would probably, one would last five years and the, the number one would last maybe seven or eight years. And then after seven or eight years, they'll be gone because the, the taste of people change, they want to rotate out, they want something. A lot of them, TGI Fridays failed here in Hawaii because it was here for 25 years, it was under new management. But then when people started, that was mom and dad. Well, mom and dad got engaged. I don't want to go and hang out at that place. I don't want to go where mom and dad. Zippy's, Zippy's is the only one that has survived for all these years. And I always think that's interesting because their food is pretty mediocre and in my opinion. And, but it's cheap and it's good and it gets, it fills you up and it's, it's survived. It's survived. But something like a Miramin, Miramin might not be here in 10, 10 years. They've already been here for 10 years. Look at, look at Ryan's. Ryan's, Ryan's had a great life. It lasted 26 years and then they're gone because nobody wanted to go to the same old place that mom and dad and grandma wanted. So it's going to be a very, very, and so now you throw the pandemic in there. And what used to be six people dying and restaurants dying in six months, it's going to be eight or nine. So it's very, it's very concerning. I mean, people don't get it. I'm adjusting my pillow here. Well, you know, Stephanie, a lot of these places where they couldn't open during the lockdown, we're doing, you know, pick it up, pick up your food. We have our kitchen working and we can make the same menu items we made before and or we'll deliver to you. And truth is they didn't need a whole sit down restaurant to achieve that. So when this all shakes out, it seems to me the restaurant business here and elsewhere will be different. And you don't need the same square footage. You just need a place to cook. And it could be in the back end of Chinatown, it wouldn't matter where it was, because either they'll pick it up or more likely, there'll be all these services that will deliver. So the restaurant industry is going to change. You're going to wind up eating at home or in, I don't know where else, but at home mostly. Don't you think in a few years time, that's what, that's what will happen. Don't you think? Well, they'll be, they'll be dying in restaurants always because there's always going to people want to go out. But how many will have the discretionary income? Those restaurants that you talk about who had takeout, they did, they just did that so that they could get the PPP and keep their employees employees. And I talked to a pizza guy, a pizza guy in in Coalina and he, he was doing 7,000 a day in sales. And with the takeout, he was doing 300, 400 dollars a day from 7,000 to 300. That's not sustainable. And he, and he still had to pay the same rent that he was, whether his store was open or closed, and it's not sustainable. And so you're right, a lot of people, a lot of restaurants will be in back alleys of Kalihi and serving and takeout, but the dynans will be, will still be around. But I doubt if they'll be as big as they are now. I mean, you know, the trend was when, when Ryan's went out two years ago, the trend was, was, was already in the process where big restaurants, which were 10 or 12,000 square feet, were going down and in size and the average restaurant was 3,500 square feet. And now, with this pandemic, it might be going to go down to about 1500 to 2000. And you have a very tight organization and you have smaller, smaller tape at the seating capacity, and then you just churn people out. Like the pig and the lady, there is a very small restaurant and you have to make reservations to go there. And it might be that, that prototype. You know, Cheesecake Factory has 18,000 square feet. I mean, think about, and to get a perspective on it, think about an average house in Honolulu is an average size is 1,100 square feet. So this is 18 times what you would, a normal family of five or six would live in. So it's huge. And we don't have a lot of tourists coming and we won't for a while. And that was feeding Cheesecake Factory. Yeah. But see, again, under scale of economies because they're so successful around the world or around the United States and they're a publicly traded company, they should be okay. And they do have that takeout with the Cheesecakes. People love to buy those Cheesecakes and they're so damn expensive, but they're good. One last questions before we run. And that is, okay, so Shopping Center is under tremendous pressure and they're probably going to change their use and find another way to make that land work. It won't be easy on anyone. And retail, hard, restaurants hard. What about these big box stores? They're sort of in the middle between the regular retail that we have and the Amazon that delivers in two days or faster now because they're so efficient. What about the big box stores? We've got a number of them. Hawaii gets along on big box stores in many ways. People shop at Costco and Best Buy and any number of those. How is this going to affect them? They do have good models. Are those models sustainable in the time of COVID? Costco is definitely a success. They've actually they actually doubled their numbers in sales and they because they're, you can get a, it's a good bang for your buck, so to speak. And so they are thriving and will continue. Sam's Club, same thing. Anybody who had a card, you know, if you're a member. So membership type of organizations, those will survive. Target survives because they can, they have everything you want. I have to tell everybody, I'm a retail expert. I've been to Target only twice in my life because I just don't, it's just not my cup of tea. It's a matter of taste. It is a matter of taste and everybody says, you don't like Target? What is wrong with you? Where's your French? Where's your idea? That's not my cup of tea. But also my cup of tea, my cup of tea is more of the balance of Nordstrom where you could get a good meal and then go shopping. A needless market, needless market, which is Neiman Marcus, they're already in bankruptcy. And so, and they're not going to survive. I mean, your luxury big department stores are going to have a really hard time. Macy's is going to have a really hard time going forward. But your big box, if you're, if it's a membership group, I think they'll be fine. But I don't know about Best Buy. Best Buy is Lowell's and Home Depot. They did great during the pandemic. They're, people are building houses, rebuilding their houses during this time. So home improvement, I have no problem with. Costco and Samsung, no problem with. Grocery stores, no problem because people want to shop. The problem is going to come forward is that if you just want to, if you want to buy clothes, if you want to buy shoes, if you want to buy a crock pot, if you want to buy book, a book, if you want to buy records or, see that dates me, that shows how old I am, you want to go and buy, it will, that paradigm has shifted and many of it will be gone. So going forward, it's going to be a very interesting next 10 years where we'll be. But the shopping center business, you can end with, it's going to be very, very challenging. And in a way, we're about five or six years behind in this thinking, people still love to shop. You know, they call it retail therapy. It's still local people love retail therapy. So they'll be okay, shopping centers will be okay here for a while because people love to shop, but a lot of retailers won't be. So we have to hope for the, we know that some stuff is coming, but we have to hope for the best that things will come back and people will make money again. Well, Stephanie, thank you so much. Stephanie Sophos of SL Sophos Realty. We really appreciate talking with you, so wise and so experienced and so into it. I really enjoy these conversations. I can hardly stop, but we're out of time. Thank you so much, Stephanie, for coming around. Thanks for having me, Jay. I, you know, I love you and I've loved you for 40 years. So you call me anytime because I'll tell your wife, you know, if I haven't had a crush on you for years. Yeah, we're on the air, Stephanie, but thanks anyway. You take care of yourself.