 In this episode, you're going to learn how you can design sustainable solutions with very limited resources that make a deep impact on people's lives. Here are the guests for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Peter. Hi, this is Gonzalo Rodino and this is the service design show episode 112. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the service design show. This show is all about empowering you with the most effective skills and strategies so you can design services that win the hearts of people and business. And this is going to be a really special episode because the guests in this episode are Gonzalo, Rodion and Fyrek, Mark. Now, I can imagine that you haven't heard about Gonzalo and Fyrek. That's because they work in a nonprofit organization called IDE Innovation Lab in Cambodia. And when I heard about their story, I got really excited because they are using human centered design around wicked problems that involve better child nutrition, giving access to clean water and helping rural farmers make a better living. And the amazing thing is they do all this while juggling with the needs of funders, dealing with very complex relationships with stakeholders and with very limited resources. And still they are able to come up with solutions that make a deep impact on people's lives. How do they do that? Now, if this sounds like a very distant world from your reality, I would say adopt an open mindset and let this episode surprise you. As you'll discover throughout the episode, our worlds aren't all that different. And in fact, I think there's a lot you can learn from the work Gonzalo and Fyrek are doing. If you're new to the service design show, welcome and consider subscribing to the channel because we bring a new video that helps to level up your service design skills at least once a week. So click that subscribe button and that bell icon so you'll be notified when new videos are out. Now, having said that, it's time to sit back relax and enjoy the conversation with Gonzalo and Fyrek. Welcome to the show, Fyrek and Gonzalo. Hey, Mike, how's it going? It's going really good on this Monday morning for me. We're recording this on a on a Monday. This is going to be sort of a first because I've done duo interviews before, but not in this new format. So we'll have to see how this goes. I'm really excited because the topic of today is it's quite cool. Gonzalo, can you give a short introduction about who you are and then we'll move on into what you actually do because again, that's that's really exciting. Gonzalo, maybe you want to start? Sure. Yes. So I'm Gonzalo Rodino. I am Argentinian, Australian designer and I'm working as a design researcher at the IDE Innovation Lab in currently rainy Cambodia. And I've been here for about two and a half years or so. How about you, Fyrek? Yeah, I'm Peter. I've been working for 10 years and the last six years I focused on social innovations. I was working for IDE and we focused on design, research and strategies. And now I moved to Australia for my master degree. Now, right? Yeah. So we're we're having the Netherlands, Cambodia and Australia in this episode. Pretty awesome. Three times. Yeah, three time zones. We're going to talk about the topic that people might not initially associate with service design or the things we address a lot here on the show. It's going to be around social innovation, but especially in an area which is quite different than the corporate environment. And I think there's so much we can learn from that. You already touched upon an organization called IDE. Could could you give a. A little bit of background story. What is that? Yeah, I can start. So IDE is an international NGO. It's founded in 1982 in the US by Paul Pollack. And then it's entered in Cambodia in 1994. Actually, it's it's projects, generally our sanitation, water, hygiene and agriculture. And Gonzalo and I actually working for a unit of let's let's call it an in-house innovation lab. It's an IDE. So we both working for this unit. OK. So it's a lot about social innovation. Yeah, I'm using the term social innovation. I'm not sure if you're also using that term. But is that is that the main area? It's it's probably the best umbrella to kind of cover all the different topics that we work on. Yeah, social innovation, which includes, you know, research, design from service design to sometimes product design strategy. It's quite broad and even more recently because we are an in-house unit, we consult a lot for external organizations. And so we've been working in, you know, clean energy, most recently in maternal and young child nutrition. So, yeah, really, it's quite it's quite broad. And we apply the methodology, human-centered design methodology across across sectors. Yeah, that's the thing that's going to connect us in this episode. Before we dive into some of your really inspiring projects, I want to get to know you a little bit better. And we're going to do that through our 60 second rapid fire Q&A. So I'm going to ask the question and maybe Gonzalo, if you start in Pierre, you just answered the same question. Then we'll try to do it in 60 seconds. All right, question number one, Gonzalo, what's always in your fridge? Water. How would you, Pierre? Chicken. Chicken and water. OK, which books are you reading right now? Fiction, I'm reading a book called San Shiro by a Japanese author and nonfiction. The obstacle is the way, I think, by Ryan Holiday. Yeah, I'm finishing my seven habits of highly effective people. Classic. Oh, right. Which superpower would you like to have? These days, maybe to fly would be would be nice to get around. I would prefer to convey the thinking of other people. All right, what did you want to become when you were a kid? For me, it was to become a famous musician. And I think I'm still hoping, still working on it. I want I wanted to become a doctor, but then no, I could not make it. All right, then the final question is when did you encounter the term service design? Do you remember your first sort of encounter with the term? Yeah, for me, it was a few years ago I was living in Melbourne. I think I kind of discovered it through. I initially heard about UX design and I thought that sounded really cool. And then when I heard about service design, maybe just through the community in Melbourne, it would sound even cooler because it was focusing on a wider range of things. Yeah, I think that was maybe a few years ago in Melbourne for me. How about you, Pierre? In my case, I think I started knowing this service design when I joined IDE six years ago. And that's when we talk about service designs. And then we also involved some in our projects. Hmm. All right. So that's that's good to get to know you a little bit better. We'll put all the links to the books in the show notes. Now, let's dive into some of the work you do. And the first thing I'm really curious about is the IDE has been around for quite a long time. How would you describe its main purpose? Like what is the goal? It's an NGO. So the funding models are different. But where in the NGO space does it fit? I can I can start. So there's IDE and then there's maybe the Innovation Lab has a unique perspective in some ways for that, because for us, our, you know, our main goal and purpose really is to to bring, you know, bring the user user-centered design into the development sector, kind of create new ways of working and in, you know, as a result come up with more sustainable, more inclusive solutions that are more market driven. But maybe IDE broadly has other purposes, which maybe Pierre can touch on. Yeah. So I think in addition to what Gonzalo said, because at IDE, we believe that entrepreneurs are everywhere, including farmers. So that's why the way that we work with them is not just give things free to them, but we use market-based approach and human-centered designs to create more sustainable solutions. Because the purpose is not just to have like short-term solutions for for the poor, but it's more like to design sustainable solutions for them to create like a real change, real big change for for their life. So just to paint the context a little bit here for the people who are watching and listening, you're doing your work usually in rural areas of Cambodia with around child nutrition, around farmers and around entrepreneurship. So the context feels quite different than maybe the the more clean and structured and more organized environment that most of the people like who are in service design are in. But I still think there's so much we can learn about your approach, because usually resources are limited or many again, many stakeholders involved. Yeah, so let's dive into some of the the challenges that you're encountering with doing these kind of projects when could you tell a little bit about when you start a project around sanitation or hand washing, like what are some of the challenges that you encounter in the most broad sense? Yeah, I can jump in and then if you're free to add anything. So broadly speaking, some of the challenges, you know, as we mentioned, the sector, you know, traditionally has maybe been working in a more traditional manner and it's it's ID. The lab has really been pushing to kind of bring this this new approach. So sometimes at the beginning of a project, at least when the lab was first founded, it was kind of a more of a challenge to bring this approach in. But now that we've been here for a while and organizations are kind of learning about these new methods and new ways where we're getting to try new things. But still there are some, you know, things restrictions or things holding us back from, you know, potentially this more traditional model where donor money comes in from another country to focus on certain things. And you know, when when we go out into the field and speak to the community, speak to, you know, different users, we learn that maybe the challenge is something else. And then that can sometimes get in the way of having a greater innovation or greater impact just because of how, you know, the sectors is structured sometimes. Yeah. And I think in addition to that, it's also, as you know, that we work in the rural context. So no running water, no digital. So then I mean, when we come to the designing solution phase, we cannot really design like amazing things, for example, like mobile app to solve the solutions. But we need to make sure that our solution fits the context and can create more sustainable solutions. And at the same time, sorry, problems that we are solving, generally, we get problems. So it's not just from one angle, like from one from one route that really caused this problem, but like many, many routes that really cause this problem. So we need to tackle, we need to make sure that we tackle this problem holistically rather than just create one solution. Yeah. So in that sense, like having to manage stakeholders and get them comfortable with a different way of working, you're dealing with that, dealing with limited resources. You're dealing with that as well. And also with the, I would say, systemic approach towards finding sustainable solutions, right? That's all I think a lot of us can relate to these challenges. And it's interesting to hear that even in such a different context, even these challenges arise. Maybe it's fun to dive into some of the more practical examples of how you're doing your work and how you're approaching it and how you're trying to overcome some of the challenges. So is there an iconic example, iconic story that comes to your mind from the recent years that you've been doing projects? Sure, yeah. And Pira, would you like to go first? Yeah, yeah, I can start. So when you ask these questions, the project that came in my mind is we call social behavior change projects. My colleague and I, we were two years ago and the purpose, the goal of the project was to reduce child stunting in Cambodia. And for your information, there was like 30% of children got stunted in Cambodia. So this project was tried to reduce this stunting rate. So we decided to use human-centered designs to tackle these problems. And then we went to the field, we interviewed different stakeholders and also the users. And then we came up with some insights that we brought to talk with our clients. But the thing is that from the beginnings, they assumed that we should focus on zero to two years old children. Because it's like from their research or from their, I don't know, like from something that they found out that's the good age for us to focus on. But from our research, it was not. The age of children that we should focus on is from two to five years old because we discover completely different people to take care of children age from zero to two years old very well. But they lack of understandings to take care of the kids from two to five years old. So that's why that's the challenge came. We need to convince our stakeholders, our clients to shift their focus from their assumptions to what we really found from the field. And two questions that come to my mind, like how did you do this research? How did you find this out? And then did you manage to, and if you did, how did you manage to sort of convey your client that they need to focus on a different group if they really wanna tackle this challenge? So let's start with the first question. How did you find this insight? It actually, it's came from different things that we need to manage to get this in depth in size. So, you know, when we talk with them, just use interview techniques, normal interview techniques, people say perfectly, you know, they told us like, oh, they washed their hands three times a day. They took care of their kids very well, you know, that everything seems to be very good. But then we found out that, well, can we do something else? Then just talking to people like this. So we decided to do homestays. That's the time that we found out that no, they did not really do what they just told us. So for the people who are listening and have no clue what is a homestay? Do you want to share, Gonzalo? Yeah, I mean, it is what it sounds like. It's going and staying in a home in a rural village and just kind of pretty much observing a family in their day-to-day life for a couple of days, maybe one night, and just trying to understand, yeah, without necessarily speaking what the behaviors are to see that the behavior, knowledge gap or the gap between what they're telling you and what they're actually doing. Yeah, one thing that also interests me is, so you did the research, you did the interviews and you got the answers, but still you had a hunch that something wasn't right. Like, what was that? Because you could have also accepted like, okay, this is what the interviews say we need to move on. You know, like, this is when you talk with people, at least from our experience, people tend to say something good about them and sometimes we fall into this trap and we thought, oh, okay, that's right. Let's bring this to the office, analyze it and synthesize it and come with solutions. But from our experience, generally we need to be smarter than that. I mean, we need to find better techniques to gain deeper insights. In addition to what I just shared with you about homestay, we also use another techniques that we're showing the sketches, images, photos, because taking into account that we are talking to the poor who live in the rural area, they are not, I don't want to say all of them, but generally they are not literate, so they need something that can stimulate their brain more when we talk to them so they can relate it. One example that I can tell is when we talk about the perceptions on poor, they could not tell us anything from the beginning, but when we show them the image of the poor, they started telling us, oh, this is what we poor, so this must be from the kids and the other one must be from Adal and the one from the kids must be not so harmful. So that's why it's very, very important to use all these kind of techniques to stimulate them and then they can share more responses. What happened next? So you did more deeper user research, design research. You found an interesting insight that the problem wasn't where you assumed it would have been and now what? Like, did you continue with finding, trying to ideate a solution or did you sort of present it to your client and hand the research over? What was the next step? You want to try it on? Sure, I was waiting for your knowledge. So the research stopped there to present to the client, of course it was a long-term project and so at that point we shared insights which then kind of guided the actual design of the behavior change campaign because it was kind of like over a multi-year process and yeah, they agreed after some discussion and it kind of drove the whole thing into a bit of a different direction. How was their response? As in, were they surprised or did you get any pushback or because if they already knew that the problem was between the ages of zero and two and you present something else, like why did you still do the research? How was that dynamic? You know, in these particular projects it's lucky for us that the clients, they really understand these kinds of things and they believe in design thinking and you mentioned the design approach. So when we explained them, I think from the beginning we convinced them already but the thing is that we need to convince other partners, other relevant stakeholders including governments. So that's the difficult part because you know every stakeholder they have their own agenda and their needs. It's not about right or wrong but because they have their own things to be done, to be accomplished. So that's why my team and I, we work on this project and from time to time we involve them in progress update meetings and at the same time we went to the offices and then we had some discussion about that until at one point they agree, like what can they involve and what can be fixed together So yeah, I mean it's not so easy but this is something that we have to do. And something that... Yeah, go ahead Goncalo. Just something that always tends to help as well is actually taking the client to the rural areas to conduct these interviews because even though potentially we're living in Cambodia all living in Cambodia, you know, Phnom Penh life is very different to rural Cambodian life so it's always useful to bring everyone along and just show them our research and yeah, share that with them. Yeah, that I guess is sort of universal if you manage to get stakeholders involved in the process rather than being an outsider waiting for the outcome then the entire dynamic of the process is different. If you think back and look back on this project what is the thing that you're most proud of? Yeah, I think the insights that we discovered and also the shift that we made rather than just stick to the initial assumptions we really shifted the focus and at the same time I think what we are proud of is we convinced the stakeholders to join in the projects and at the end of the projects when it comes to implementations the partners, each partners can play a role by taking the solution that we created to use by their own, you know so it becomes more like a holistic solutions that each one can take a part of the solutions. Yeah, it was almost like an open source all the materials we designed with the design agency here are available on a website for any NGO organization to download and basically implement themselves so rather than only focusing on one organization that might only be able to fund the campaign for a couple of years now it's a bit more sustainable and it's also helping to align the wash sector rather than sending out so many different messages to families in rural areas this kind of helps to give one more unified message which as we know is a much better way to change behavior. In addition to that, I just want to emphasize that the solution that we came up with it's not so sexy, you know it's like in the corporate world that you create a kind of innovative solution like mobile app or something like this so we created washing sorry, what do we call that? Hand washing buckets that made of used paint buckets and we created a video that has these modern grandmothers as an inspiration for example of this kind of solutions but the thing is that these solutions can make bigger impact in the society, in the communities because they can relate themselves to these solutions. Yeah, so that's a beautiful thing about this like we tend to get distracted by new technology by shining new objects while finding solutions that are sort of regular and fit into the lives of the people already whether it's your customers, your patients, your students maybe even your employees those kind of solutions usually are not disruptive they are just plain ordinary but because they are ordinary they are easily accepted and used in actually used so I think this is also a great example of don't overcomplicate it usually it's the simple things that make the biggest impact, right? And it's really hard to find those simple things. Yeah, that's true. I think people from the corporate world may be frustrated when they come to work in the development sector like us because maybe they expect solutions should be more radical innovations but from our experience we can say that generally the solutions that come out from design thinking in the development sectors that we work is more about radical, sorry, incremental innovations Yeah. It's not amazing things that you can see but it really make impact in the community. Exactly and that's the only thing that counts like how impactful is it? Not how disruptive is it? Or how radical is it? Or how shiny is it? And I think that makes our work also a bit harder because usually the solutions or often the solutions are quite obvious. Like in the end you're thinking like is this it? And you might get remarks from people like yeah but I could have come up with that and the thing is you didn't. So for us often it's really hard to explain that you need to go through this process and then the obvious things come out. And the process is here to extract the obvious things and put them to life. This was really, yeah, go ahead. So much of the opposite has happened as well historically where it's organizations with offices abroad are saying yeah we're gonna design, I can design this, this is the great product, new technology, whatever and then it gets kind of dropped off in these communities and it just flops, it doesn't work out. So it might seem simple but like doing something simple is the hard part, you know? Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you had a second project that you also wanted to share, right? Sure. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I wanted to share. It's a project before my time but I feel like it's one that kind of captures the essence of this kind of how humans head and design really brings value in this sector and also how something we didn't mention earlier that a lot of times when new solutions or new programs are kind of put into place in the rural areas or in this sector, it actually adds to the complexity of the system that we're working within. Yeah, so I'll try to skim through this story but basically we had a agricultural program that had recently put out a drip irrigation system to help with farmers and at the time, farmers were working in a more traditional farming style and weren't really using too many of the systems and initially they were selling products and over time it kind of slowed down and so they came to us to say something's wrong with our drip irrigation system, like we need you guys to redesign this. And so, cool, the team at the time went out into the field and spoke to farmers and actually spoke to more people in the overall system and what they found was that the farmers really loved this, I mean, they liked this drip irrigation. They knew how to use it. They really felt that the organization was supporting them with the training really well and it had nothing to do with the drip irrigation system. And through talking to the rest of the people involved, we uncovered that actually there was two main issues. One being that in some areas other NGOs had been giving away similar drip irrigation systems and so the farmers would say, well, why should I spend money if my name is getting for free and also the neighbor wasn't necessarily using it because as we know when things are given for free they're not always valued. And the other more interesting reason was that the drip irrigation was working so well that the farmers didn't know who to sell the extra produce too. Some of these farmers maybe they only have a bicycle to take the produce to the market, which can be far away and so the produce was going to waste. So yeah, it wasn't the drip irrigation system at all. It was this link in the actual market. Yeah. Veric, anything else to add to this? Sure. Oh yeah, Pierre, sorry. Yeah, I think what Gonzalo said, the project was more, you know, like people thought that this is a problem but when we use design thinking or human-centered designs that we call in our lab we found something else and we fixed it and if I'm not wrong, that's a short enterprise. Now they are progressing very well and they already changed their business model based on our recommendations and they are on their way to become like to be like a shop, like in the capital cities. So everything is progressing positively with that social enterprise. Yeah, and this is also again a really interesting example where you have a thing and when something is not working, your initial reaction is to fix the thing and look at the thing that's broken where there might be something else in the context which is actually causing the problem and understanding that context is the way to solve it. And how did you do research in this case? How did you find the insights? Basically, we started by doing alignment workshops. That's what we call, so we involved the stakeholder especially our clients in the team and to address all the concerns and everything. And a key is that we try to get at least one of them to be a part of the team. So it's not just about like, oh, I involve my clients and then I will give the progress update to them. It's not about that, but it's just like you, you will be a part of the team. And these many consulting companies are afraid of to do so, but from our experience, it works well. So that's the first step. And the second step, like what you know, we go to the field, we interview different people. It's not just our target, but like people that can influence our target, key person like local authorities, also government, NGOs who's working there. So we talk to different stakeholders and then we came back and then we analyzed, synthesized following the design thinking process. So this is how we work. Yeah, and it's really again about understanding the entire ecosystem, the entire context, the entire system. And that's always the, I guess the challenging part, how broad do you need to go versus how narrow you need to go? Like how many people will you interview? How, who is still relevant in this challenge? Now, the example that you're giving here, I can imagine that, let me ask the question here. What happened when you told the client that the problem wasn't with their product, but that actually was something outside of their existing scope. A client might say, well, what can I do about that? Like that's not within my reach. What happened in this case? Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing as well, before I jump into that is that this challenge, this new challenge kind of came up as a result of the drip irrigation system being put in place, right? So they wouldn't have been able to predict this challenge very easily until the product was out there. But I believe they, you know, embrace the idea and it was kind of like over a couple of years, they shifted like Priyanka's mentioned, they shifted their business model. They are now working with contract farmers, which means that, you know, they provide training inputs to the farmers and they purchase all of their produce. So the farmers happy, they have inputs, they know they have a buyer with a fixed price. And the organization itself can also make a commission of selling those vegetables to the market. So it was kind of like a win-win for them in this situation. Yeah, so they shifted from being a product supplier to facilitating, maybe I don't know how to phrase them right now, but maybe becoming a partner in building a more sustainable, healthy life for these farmers, something like that, right? That's quite a radical shift. Yeah, I think now they offer like a holistic solutions to the farmers. It's not just like, oh, I sell the drip irrigation devices to you and then that's it. It's not about that anymore. So they offer trainings and they also buy the producers from the farmers. So everything is complete now. Yeah. Again, this sounds like something that we might fight in a lot of service design projects. The challenging thing is how do you actually get a client to act upon these insights? I don't know how big this client was or how agile or how small. Did you experience, what made it that they were able to actually go through this shift? So I think, yeah, Pirak, you go. Go ahead. No, I mean just because I think because they were social enterprise, which is in itself a different model to the traditional donor NGO model, it was in their best interest to become more self-sustainable and actually earn a higher income or revenue as an organization. So maybe in this particular case, it was a good partnership with the organization. But with a more traditional, larger organization that might be reliant on yearly funding that they kind of have to keep along that track to receive the same funding next year, yeah, might be tricky. So if I cut through the chase, they had a business incentive in actually making this work. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's maybe different than other stakeholders who have a different business or funding model. And in this case, like seeing this as a business opportunity made them go after it. Yeah, yeah, that's correct. And you know, like, you change or you die. They can't say like, oh, I don't take your solution. I don't take your recommendations, but they have to face the consequence, you know? And that's also a good thing. Like when I was working with large corporates or with government, like the pain of not acting upon insights, like, you know, they will still be around in five years, but if you're a smaller business and you're not doing what your customers want, you become irrelevant. And with a small business, that happens really fast with a larger business. It takes a while, but eventually, yeah, when you're not relevant anymore to your customers, it's game over. Yeah, and it's a challenge as well. You know, the customers here, if they're going to invest in a drip irrigation and it's potentially a low income family and rural community, like they really need to want to buy this drip irrigation system, you know? It's like, it's a big purchase just for the example. So it's, the stakes are quite high that if you don't adapt, you're just going to lose, yeah, although your customers in quite quickly, I would say, yeah. Do you see, like, what is the consequence of working on challenges that are so impactful on people's lives? Like, it has to do with health, it has to do with income. These are super impactful things. How does that influence your work? Well, if I understand your question, so I think it really motivates me a lot at least. Personally, I feel like I enjoy the work, you know? Like, every day I go to work, I feel like I contribute to this, making people's life become better. And at the same time, even though our solutions are not so amazing, but at the end of the day, it really helps people to live better, you know, like having led streams. I remember like one of the things that I work on is led stream projects. So before 2015, there was only, sorry, there was less than 60% led stream coverage rate in Cambodia. And I work on that projects as well. And now the projects improve, progress, and it's covered, sorry, a lot of people, they have led streams, you know, they improve their life, their health conditions improve. So that's what I like about working in this sector. And sometimes as well, you know, when it's not something so direct like latrine, latrines, you know, sometimes we do research that informs policies that might be rolled out, you know, in like in a few years time. And so we do our best to bring the user's voice or the community's voice into these designs or into our recommendations. And it can be, sometimes it can be out of our hands, how that's rolled out, how that's implemented if it's strictly policy. But, and it can also be, it can take some time to see any kind of impact, you know, over time, you know, even in the two and a half years that I've been here, situation changes. And, you know, it's impact is not always immediately seen, but it's a small wins, I guess, that definitely making want to come back to work, yeah, every day. Yeah, it's different than working on the next mobile app, right? I can imagine the incentive is quite different. If you had to share some of the key insights that you learned through this work and give some pieces of advice for the people who are listening and watching this episode and who are probably working in quite a different context, what would you say? For people that potentially want to come and work in this sector? Well, that would be also interesting. But also just for people who won't be working anywhere remotely, like in this region and are working a large corporate or a government agency in, I don't know, Spain, but also the other side, like you said, maybe people who want to come. So both stories are interesting. I mean, one point that I wanted to quickly talk on is at least from this context, you know, a lot of the design, thinking, human-centered design methodologies or frameworks are developed for that context, for the Western or foreign context. And so, yeah, I think it's kind of key to not be so protective of these frameworks and be able to adapt them to the context. Like, there are necessarily not many frameworks for this sector, and so it's just really more about doing what needs to be done. And really making an effort, I guess this can be applied to corporate as well, making an effort to reflect and check your bias and your position within this context, whether as a foreigner for myself or as a city person going to rural areas, kind of understanding that context and doing what you can to try to minimize the power relations and, yeah, any potential unconscious biases. I think it's really critical. I mean, in any design role, I would say, but you particularly feel it, at least for me, in this context. Yeah, in addition to that, I think be prepared for the solutions that are not considered as amazing solutions because don't expect that in the development sectors because it's not always, you know, like, the solution that we think is the best could be the best that make a real impact if it's not like that. So that's why I think people that come to work in the development sectors should expect that. And how do you deal with that? How have you found a way not to, or to communicate the value? Like, the simplicity of the solutions, it's about making the most impactful solutions, but do you still get requests from clients and comments like these? Is this all you do or are you beyond that stage? Well, you know, sometimes we get the even requests for apps, for example, for farmers. It's actually the opposite where we have to say, you know, that would be an awesome project to work on, but, you know, and we can try, but we know that this, from our experience, this might not work and this is a better route to go down. And I think for ID specifically, oh, sorry. Yeah, question? No, well, the thing that came to my mind is like, you have to be really clear about why you're doing something. If you're, if you want to create impact on people's lives, it's something that's different than creating, doing a project for, from a marketing or branding perspective, where you can say, look at this, we've designed this new shiny thing and being clear with your clients what the real goal is, they want to create impact or do you want to use this? And that's a good exposure, yeah. Yeah, and that can be a challenge as well because obviously organizations want to have this shiny thing to show off sometimes, to donors and to secure more funding, you know, if that's their business model. And so there is a push that sometimes, but again, it comes back to, it's not about them, it's not about us, it's about the people that this product or service will eventually go to. And yeah, it's again, pushing a more sustainable solution, a solution that once the organization's funding potentially drives up, can still go on its own. I think that's critical because yeah, historically so many programs end and that's it. And that again adds complexity to the next round of organizations that want to come in and do the same kind of work, yeah. Yeah, so removing complexity is actually the goal, not adding to it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anything else you want to add to that, Ferek? I just want to add that in the corporate world, I think when we work, we try to fulfill the needs and maybe solve some pains of the customers or users. But in the development sectors where we work, especially in the rural context, what we end the most is to solve these big problems finally. It's not just like, oh, I will need to fulfill one of the customer. For example, I will design amazing lettering, looks very nice. It's not only about that, but we need to make sure that they will use it. And at the end of the day, it will contribute to reducing the child's stunting and improve their health conditions. Yeah, yeah. And maybe it's easier in these conditions to have your priorities straight. I think that's the thing we can learn. If people want to continue this conversation with you guys, what's the best way to reach out? Yeah, the IDE Innovation Lab has an Instagram page, Facebook page. We can share the links and then, of course, email myself or, Ferek, if you want to share your email, we're very happy to keep discussing for sure. It's a small community, you know? And I find myself sometimes talking to one person in another country doing similar kind of work and there are so many, you know, you're like two degrees of separation often to a lot of people in this sector. I'm not sure all the relevant links are in the episode show notes. It was really awesome to get an insight in what you're doing in Cambodia as far and as remote as it seems. I think there are many parallels between all the other design projects around the world. So that's quite interesting to see. I think we, and when I say we here in the West can learn a lot from what you're doing here rather than us trying to impose our ways of thinking and methodologies to how you should be using it. So awesome, thanks again for sharing your stories. What's your biggest takeaway from this episode? 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