 So, my name is Scott Schaper, I'll be talking about selling WordPress and selling in general. Just a quick note about what we do, we're in Lonexa, Unravel is a B2B SEO agency. We do that stuff, this is kind of our internal mission and brand. We don't go out to the market and say we do all that stuff, it's just how we drive ourselves internally. So today I'm going to move pretty quickly because I would like to open up some discussions and I'm sure I'm done talking but if you have something that strikes you, feel free to chime on in, raise your hand or just yell, that's fine. We're going to talk about business and some entrepreneurship and then selling, selling, selling because I do a lot of it and I think everybody does a lot of it. So I want to be, I have some sales tips, I have some sales psychology, I have how to talk about technology, how to talk about WordPress, when to bring it up and when not to bring it up. Quick dorky definition, I don't know why I kept this slide in here but I did. But basically there's business owners, there's freelancers, there's entrepreneurs, there's stockholders, there's shareholders, there's a lot of things that are business owner-y stuff. Business owner makes their living by extracting money from their client service efforts. That's what I do, that's how I get food on the table at my house. A business or so, you know, I have a little share, I have some shares of Starbucks, right? So I own that company, it doesn't mean I'm an entrepreneur, I didn't invent that company. So there is a difference between owning a company and owning a business, I think. That's the distinction I'm making. Entrepreneurs actually founded their company, took an enormous amount of risk to do so by quitting their job and doing their thing. That's an entrepreneur in my opinion. If you're a freelancer, and that is your side hustle but you're making your main money on the side, then you're not a small business owner, you're a freelancer and that's fine. And that would suggest that if you're a freelancer and you don't have another source of income, you're probably a business owner. So I'm talking directly to owners and sellers of WordPress. So we kind of all heard as Fundy Pippin's talking and I was like, I'm going to talk about a lot of those challenges really quickly. But business problems are stuff or issues that we deal with all day long, stuff like that. And I think pretty much Pippin covered all that stuff. Yeah, sales. We're going to talk a lot about that. Employees payroll, taxation, forms filing, workers comp. I mean, this is like seven things out of a thousand, right, that we have to deal with all day long. Why do I bring this up? Because you're in the same boat as the people you're visiting and selling to. They're dealing with the same problems that you are dealing with. They're dealing with them right now. They're dealing with them tonight. They're dreaming about them. They're waking up, cup of coffee. That's all they think about. Same with you, right? Just so happens when you're in a one-to-one meeting with one of those, you might be focused on the sales aspect at that point. I say that because since you guys share the same problems, it gives you a unique perspective on what they're dealing with. It gives you a lot of connectedness to them. So I think when it comes to selling, there's this me against them. There's my tail between my legs and there's this fear about, will you buy it for me? Am I good enough to get you to trust me to write me a big check? You know, all those things. And we lose focus on the fact that what they were doing five minutes before the meeting was probably what you were doing half hour before the meeting. You're doing the exact same things, worrying about your business, growing it on and on and on. And what that means is I like this. I have a frozen food manufacturer in St. Louis we work with. And I was expecting a payment one time. It didn't come when I expected it, which is always now. And so I asked him about it. He's like, ah, this is a $4 million company. I'm not a $4 million company. This person is his company is $4 million. And he said something very interesting. He's like, ah, I'm going to get that to you on Monday because I got payroll right now. And I'm like, when's it? So yeah, I'm doing payroll right now myself, right? The only difference is a zero, which means there's zero difference, right? It's just extra scale. So his payroll problems are the exact same payroll problems I have, just with a different number of people to do it. So it's the exact same problem. He's trying to figure out how to file his quarterly taxes on and on and on. We file the same forms. Just kind of like putting your, we all put on our pants one leg at a time. We still all file a 1040. I don't care how rich you are or how poor you are. Everybody's got to file that same form. So just keep that in mind because since you have the same problems, you have the ability to be empathetic, right? To really adopt what someone else is feeling and get into their brain a little bit. Right? And empathy is going to be a huge driver of how I talk about sales. So I want to talk about empathy for a second. We all kind of know what that means, but I want to give a salient example. So a picture of a kid, and you may have as a parent or as an aunt or uncle, have dealt with this. A child who's three or four, they're holding onto a balloon. This is the best day of their life. Children tend to live in the moment in the present and then it's slipped away, right? It's never coming back. It's gone forever, right? And what do they do? They melt. They just melt, right? They're beside themselves with grief. And what's the parent's response to that? Besides being, you don't want your child to cry, especially in public. It's a little bit of a meltdown going on. But what is a parental response at that moment? Pick them up. What do you say to this four-year-old? What is it? Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. What else? One more thing. Yeah, it's just a balloon, right? Those are not empathetic statements. Those are statements of comfort and wanting to move past the situation, right? So that child's balloon is your iPhone. If I were to drop that into the sewer drain and I said, it's okay, we're going to get another one. You're going to melt down for the next two hours. That is an empathetic response is we're not going to get that back, right? And I'm here to cushion this fall. It's disturbing, right? To lose your phone or your wallet. Take your wallet and drop that in the lake. That's never coming back. And in the same way, so that's empathy is getting inside that other person's head and realizing it's not okay. It's terrible. It's not okay. So a deep empathy for the situations that your prospects and clients are facing will give you a leg up in your sales conversations. Is that good? Does that make sense? So if you're currently not using that as a mindset now and then you do start to shift toward that empathetic mindset in your future conversations, it will be different, I promise. It's a game changer. And if you do it very purposefully and you think about that in your conversations, you'll change and your sales conversations will change. I think that empathy is the best and only sales tool that will yield success, right? Because, let's face it, if you're selling them something, it's highly likely that someone else is selling that exact same thing. Or if you're done with your sales process and you already have sold something, they're getting phone calls, emails, spams, tweets, and inundated with messages about how to not get you the business, right? They want the business. It's cheaper, better, one down the line. So when you can, when you are connected with your clients and prospects in a way that is over and above just that service that you've delivered, it's going to be better, it's going to be a better relationship. So let's bring this into our digital lives a little bit. How many people have ever developed a website or assumed control of a website and decided, I better look at this on my Android device. I better look at this on my iPhone and then you look at it. You twist it sideways. Who's done that? Just to review it. That is, you're like, at that moment, that's empathy. You're like, what does my user see when they look at this? Is it terrible or is it awesome, right? And then you take action on that empathetic user experience protocol, right? You have to do that. So I would challenge that everything you do for your client is a user experience, okay? So we are all already in the business of user experience. I'm saying move that user experience empathy across the entire chain of interaction with your clients, your prospects, their employees, the admin accounts, everywhere, don't just start at the end user. Also expand your definition of the user. So when I talk about users with my clients, I always talk about three users because as a web developer and as a deliver of marketing services, I have to care for three distinct users. Number one is the client sitting in front of me. If they're not happy, I won't get paid. That person has to be happy. They are a user, okay? If their users aren't happy, which are the prospects looking for their business, if they're not cared for, they're leaving the site. Back to the first user, they're not happy. So I have to care for both of those user experiences. Any idea what I'm going to say for number three? Google. Google is the number one visitor of the site, especially early on. If you do not play by Google's rules more often than you don't, Google is not going to like you. Then the users won't find you. And then the first user is, again, the relationship's broken. The next call is, hey, we have WordPress services, and they're like, great, because everything's broken on the other side. That's how I get clients, people complaining about the previous user experience. They're not framing in that way, but I know that's what's happening. Does that make sense? Empathy will help you look at your user experiences differently. Okay, so I'm going to go back a second. So I'm going to have this, I've been going back and forth, so they're selling at the top, so going back into selling. So I'm going to go into a sales process, and I'm going to go into some sales tips. The first thing, you sit down at the desk of your prospect. And your first job, and your only job during that meeting, is to seek to understand, not prescribe. You can't prescribe right now. You're in understanding mode. And I always use the doctor frame. That's the doctor frame of mind. So let's talk about the doctor for a second. You have a problem? Let's put you into the client's shoes. And so I'm a patient, is the analogy. I invite myself, and I go and I make an appointment, go into the doctor's office. I sit there and wait. My knee hurts. And the doctor comes in, introduces himself, and says, what's going on, right? What's gone wrong? And you say, my knee hurts. And he pulls out a knee pill and an invoice, and says, pay half of this, and then eat this. And then he backs away and walks out. And you're like, what just happened here? He already assumed that I needed this weird knee pill, right? No, that never happens like that, right? The doctor instead says, knee hurts. That is not the problem. I need to know what happened. Has it always hurt since you were born? No, it started like yesterday. What happened yesterday? I don't know. Well, was it hurting when you woke up? No. Well, I went to the, I had a smoothie, and then I went to the gym. Really? Tell me about the gym. What'd you do? Squats. Like with weights? That's when it started hurting? Okay. It's interesting. So, has it ever happened before? Yeah, like a year ago. What were you doing? Squats. Okay. You need not a knee pill, you need a knee brace and some Advil right now to soothe the pain. But that's a very simple example of that. You must dig to figure out what happened. Why are they in pain? So, the doctor frame is you exploring, right? And so, this is very key because they have invited you to the office. Right? You're in their living room. This is the intimate space for them. And they are essentially admitting we're at our ceiling of complexity. We used to do it ourselves. Now it's broke. We don't know how to do it anymore. We're plumbers. We plum, right? We don't know the web anymore. My nephew did it. Then we got a good one. Now it's too complex for me. So, we've all been there, right? So, they are essentially being very vulnerable. They're giving you that power right now to say, I need you guys. And at that moment that you don't talk about WordPress, right? That's the knee pill. They don't need WordPress now. They need understanding. So, keep asking questions. Keep asking questions. So, you're in doctor frame right now. You're a healer. And you have SAV. You know you have SAV for that pain. And so, you're just going to keep asking questions, taking notes. Does that make sense? Digging? This is natural. We do this, right? We do this pretty well, I think. So, this goes to empathy and humanity, right? These are not just accounts. These are people with problems. If you can solve, you can earn their trust. That's what I find. We're going to talk about some ways to solve. That helps this process along. So, key is, again, your frame of mind is empathetic already. But how do you view your role at that time is very key because there's a number of different answers to this, right? You have the power. You're the techie guy. You can talk over their head. There's a lot of stuff they don't understand. There is a knowledge gap. You're good at what you do. On and on and on, there's a lot of different roles. But definitely, you're selling and you're a provider. But I want you to consider both of these. You could be either one of these. I would say you could be both. But I want to discuss the differences in the mindset around both these terms. Vendors sell stuff. I mean, you're a vendor. You vent. You're selling stuff. No doubt. Partners are solvers, I think. Partners are empathetic people who understand, like, I'm on this journey with you and we're going to solve this. I'm going to help you. So a partnership, and I think a lot of us can use that language, right? Because we're like, we're not here just to sell you a website. We're here to build a long-term partnership. It's kind of cliche and it's true. And that's the way it should be honestly true is you're there to help themself. But think about it from their perspective. This is their perspective, right? A vendor will always send an invoice. And that's always going to be true even when we do come on board. But partners produce value. So you need them to know that and realize that there's value in this relationship. So much value that when they get that call, that next cold call from that SEO guy, they should say, Shaper's got our back. You couldn't possibly. No, we're good, right? You need to give them the words to do that. That's when you know you're producing values when they're eschewing the competition on your behalf. So it's your job to illustrate that value. Is it good? I see nodding heads. Any questions so far? Okay. That's the mindset stuff. And so we're going to get into these are these are the sales techniques that I have gotten far in for 10 years, right? I've gotten better and better and better. And so I'm going to share, I've been through some sales trainings. I've read a lot of sales books. I've tried a lot of sales. I've failed a lot of sales calls. I've dropped clients. I've done all sorts of bad things, right? All the failures of doing business, you know, we've collectively done them all, right? So hopefully you'll relate to some of these. So this is what has stuck with me. And if you, if one of these, if you identify with one of these, then in the Q&A session, just write that note down when I say it and just relay a quick story. That'd be great to share that story because I know you guys have some. Has anyone heard this term? Monkey paw? Does anyone know what that is? It's a, it's a marine term. Nobody? A monkey paw is a rubber ball that's wrapped in rope and it's a tool on a large ship. So you've seen pictures of a huge commercial marina, right? Where it's container vessels. Those have to be tied up. Well, have you ever seen what those are tied up with? I mean, these chain links are as big as my wrist, right? How did they get the boat? How'd they get that giant rope or chain from the boat to the dock? It's enormous. The chain itself weighs tons. There's nobody hoisting that over the side. They start with this rubber ball. It kind of looks like a monkey paw, but it's attached to a small rope, a long, very strong rope, and then that's tied to a bigger rope and then that's eventually tied to the big rope. And they just toss that thing over the side and someone's down there to catch it. If they miss it, they pull it back and they toss it again until they get it and then they have a machine that eventually loops around and hoists that boat into place. That's a big boat, right? Okay, you got this visualization. How is it used here? This is a trust builder from me. Okay, so I'll give you an example. One of my very first clients, a nice lady, she came to me. She had a cute sight, but she says there's a link at the bottom. I don't encourage you to click it because it goes to a nasty porn site. And she's like, so I won't tell anybody. Like my last business cards, I didn't even put my website on there because I didn't want people going there. It was so embarrassed. And so she basically had a broken link, right? This lady's got a bleeding neck, right? It's like, I need a bandaid. So she's like, if you do this, she's like, by the way, I don't know how to log into my domain account. That was the old developer. He had it. He went out of business. He's gone. He let his domain expire, ABC Marketing. A porn company bought them thing, put a site. So now when you click it, it goes to the new content. So, and now she's like, she doesn't know how to get ahold of them, nor does she know how to get into her domain and just like shut it off. So she's like stuck. Okay, it's a fairly easy fix for me. I can lead her down the path of resetting her domain account. It's not that, it wasn't that tough. So basically a half hour of my time to, that was my, this was my monkey paw. I'm like, you know what, before we go much further, let me take care of that. Give me your log into whatever and we figured it out. But it was me just tossing that easy thing over the, now let's have a conversation so you can check that off your list. All that anxiety went away. And it was just such an easy thing for me, right? Backspace over a link or whatever in the footer. Okay, big value. It meant a lot to her, you can imagine. Super easy for me to do. Fast, cheap. I'm not gonna charge her for that half hour. And you know what, if I don't end up getting the contract, I'm her hero for that week. That feels good. I like that. That feeds me to be the guy that, that fixed the problem. That's the monkey paw. That's a trust builder. And now she was my client for a very long time. And for probably seven years. I mean, just because of that exercise. So when you do some, there's another one where we inherited the site. I did, it was a, it was fairly easy fixed, but it was tedious and it took me a long time. And I told, I gave her a price for that time. And she's like, oh man, that's what the last guy, that's what the last guy charged me. And it's still not fixed. All right, she was hurting, you know, on budget. She had to go to her boss with another budget item, like how, ask him how, how is he gonna fix it? And the last guy didn't. And I said, I won't charge you until it's done. And it'll be on Wednesday. This was Friday. I knew we can get it done. And she's like, so if it's not done, what happens? I'm like, you don't have to pay me. So now the owner stops. I'm putting my neck on the line for her, right? On Tuesday afternoon, I said, can I come over? I'm gonna show you this. Does it look great? All these buttons, she had JavaScript problems. So we fixed it and she paid me and we got the account. Everything's great. But again, it was just a little like, you know what? I'm gonna toss you this lifeline. She was in pain three days later. It was up and running. That's a monkey poem. Has anyone done stuff like that? Yeah, gotta be careful. Don't get in the trap of giving yourself away, right? It really has to be easy, fast, cheap. I did not give away the services on the other one. It was valuable to her. She owed me money. She paid it. She was happy to do it. So what I did give it to her was a way to say, yeah, you prove yourself. We did it. It was a great account. Yeah, so solving a media pain doesn't have to be free. It doesn't have to be free. It just has to be good, good cop, bad cop. I love this one. This one works great. Okay, this is all about pricing, right? A lot of us have pricing problems. I know you have pricing problems. What's the website cost? You're like, well, you see, with pet shops, it's, and you're like, word salad, word salad, word salad. It's $1,600,000, right? You're just like, oh. And they're like, so what is it again? Okay, you can't even, you can't even, we've all been there. I've been there and it's like, not fun at all. So here's what I do. Is I just, it's like, at this point, this is almost like an insurance document. Like, here's our pricing. It's on the document and it's a nice document. I got it right here, this document right here. It's very small and branded. It's cute. It's fun. It's a price at the top, everything they get. And there's some more stuff on the back. But I'm their friend. I'm there to solve. I'm on their team, on their partner. And I'm in prescription mode a little bit now. So I'm like, let me tell you, right? And I push this in between us and I go down the list. And now she's like, okay. Okay, do you see what's going on now? This is the bad cop. I am on her side, right? So you can put any, I need to go back to my boss if we were gonna make that sort of change, I need to go back. So you can always put everything on the document, right? Use that psychological trick of making this the bad thing. It's like, I'm gonna solve that for you. And so you be the solution provider, let the document provide the pricing. I've used that before and it's way easier when it's on paper. Cause then they're like, would you take 3,000 off? Or you're like, that's not what the document says. They don't say that anymore, right? I lean on this document all the time. Ever since I started that approach, I've never gone off of it. And it is a miracle worker. Cause they're like, this is immutable, right? It's not penciled in. They're not like, let's scratch this out and sharpen the pencil, whatever. No, this is an immutable document. Not only that, but it allows me to own my pricing, own all my services and promise everything on that page. So if they need a lower price, then I just say, cross off the things you don't want. And then they're like, oh, I see how that works time, time, right? It's sometimes it's easier when you're talking to like an attorney where their time is paid for one to one, that's kind of like use, that's like our time, right? Sorry. So I use the good cop, bad cop. That is a sales technique that has worked for me. Is that enlightening? Yeah. Do you do a call really, is that curious just because websites, you know, understandably, they vary so much to the next. So I feel like, I feel like as a developer, it's been challenging for me to consider doing anything like a price sheet because. Yeah. It's a tough, it's a tough one. I do hourly work. So what I do, yeah, this is a very tough conversation. I can have a whole pricing seminar, right? So what I do is I put things on there and I cap everything on there. So a website is this. A website is homedepot.com, right? That is not $6,000, that is $6 million, right? So when I say website, it means $6 million to $6,000 or $600. So that's a big, so make sure. I like to put a price because companies respond better to a project price than they do to a blank check and go start your hourly rate. So the limitations are you define what a website is, okay? So it's a website with three iterations on design, six pages of content, these are the ones and three blog articles with Google Analytics, reporting, SEO, outdoor, DNS, whatever you feel like offering, we'll adjust the DNS or you do it, whatever you wanna do, just define it and then everything that they will ask, like why have 12 services? Great, you have 12 services? Then we need six more service pages. So here's our page price over here. So that's what I do, is I limit everything on there and my monthly kind of ongoing rate, they're like, what do I get for that? This, if you want more of that, we'll just up that rate. So I limit what I define exactly what I call a small business enterprise package. And people are like, black and white, I'm never gonna pay more than that unless I ask for more of this and they love that. That gives them comfort. Now, I have right on the back, I said, if you ask for anything oddball out of the question that's not on this page, then that's gonna be your rate, 100 bucks an hour. It's all up front. There's never a question. I don't even have a contract anymore, right? No contracts. I have an agreement. These are the things we'll do. This is the stuff you'll pay for. It's very simple. So, lean on that document. Yeah. Something great to have a document is you don't get to surprise the scope creep later on. Totally. Not on a document. I love scope creep. Scope creep is money. Let them scope away. Because I always say, right off the bat, you will never get a bill that you didn't expect. And if you do, do not pay it because I won't even, I just won't even do it to you. You do not have to pay a bill that you got that you didn't expect. And they're like, what? Like record scratching. You're always gonna get this bill. This is, they pick their payment plan, right? You're gonna get these bills. And if it's different, it's because you asked for more scope. And so I just tell them, that's gonna be probably a couple extra hours, $200 tops. If it's less, then it'll be like a hundred. Yeah, great, do it. You're great, just $100. So scope creep is my friend. I don't mind it. It's a good question. Same. Did I answer that? Did I? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's still something where it's like, it's harder for me to, I do a lot more development. So I'm not calling the scope in any way that you perform on the execution scope that's given to me. So I feel like price sheets are just challenging for me. I do flat rate, I do project rate, but it's always based on, so I hate the number talk, I hate pricing talks. Because a lot of times people won't have enough specifics, too. True. Yeah, that's a challenge. Yeah, this document is $50,000. If you're competing against me on a deal and you're selling on price, you're probably gonna lose that. I'm just telling you right now. This is a $50,000 document. I've sold three of them last month. This represents, you can come look out of the afterwards. That's $50,000. If you are, you can sell these at whatever you want. Does not matter what the price is. Your ideal clients are not price sensitive when you're empathetic to their needs and you solve their problem. I always use this bleeding neck, right? If I were to produce a ball of gauze for you and said, how much would you pay for this? You'd be like, a buck, right? What if I tried to sell it to you for $50? You would be like, no. But if your neck was bleeding, I bet you'll pay more. That's where you're offering them, is you're gonna quell their pain forever. Or you should be. That's what I like doing. I'm very consultative. So I like to solve all their problems. And they're not price sensitive. When you get great service, you're not price sensitive, right? Starbucks, $4 cup of coffee. They're not selling, that cup of coffee is like costs differently, but it's just that they're selling something other than that coffee for sure. Apple products, name Toyota products. You can name all of those products that you pay a premium for. You're not price sensitive because you're getting something that is feeding you, solving your pain. That's clear. I used to sell these for a lot less. Also, you can change your window of your revenue. That is a two year window. I look at clients in very long term, right? They stay with me for a long time. I tend to sell a vision of two years to them. I always sell a vision of two years to them. I don't go out the door and say this is $50,000. Call me when you're ready to make a check out. No, the payment, the terms, the service delivery, how it gets delivered over time, what they get is all spelled out though. But if they did the math, they're gonna lend somewhere between $42,000 and $62,000. It's 30,000 year one, 20,000 year two on average. If you sell something for $1,000 a month, that's $25,000 in two years. And then load up a website that they don't have to pay for in year two, load it up in the beginning of year one, that's a good client. So I don't think they buy on price. I don't sell on price. I've raised my prices nearly every time I've, especially early on, that first one I told you about with the link at the bottom, 500 bucks. Then it was 800, then it was 1200. Every time I had my tail between my legs, but I'm like, I'm giving these guys great service. I'm learning more and more stuff. So now it's 1,400, 3,300. Then I got stuck at 3,300 for a long time where I felt like I wasn't worth over 3,300. So getting $6,000 out of my mouth was painful and I couldn't figure out how to get out of that. Right, anybody read the Little Red Book of Sales? No, my favorite quote in there is the most brutal one. Whatever you're making this year is exactly what you're worth. If you're worth more, you'd go do that. So honor yourself, honor your expertise, honor your pricing and pay yourself more. Sometimes maintaining is better than building. I love to inherit. Like we just built this thing three months ago. It's on WordPress. It's a nice looking, pretty decent job. It doesn't happen very often, but I'm like, you know what, we'll inherit that. They just don't like their marketing effort. That's not getting any leads. They don't like the person anymore. So we just pick it up, re-host it with our solution and we begin maintaining or adding marketing to it in the form of blog copy or whatever. So that's great. It's like we're just making that monthly. Remember the monthly is where all the money is I think. And it's recurring cash flow, which is totally a friend, right? So business wise, you got revenue, profit and cash flow. Revenue, profit, cash flow, revenue, profit, cash flow, right? We all know what those are. So what's the priority there? Which one? Cash flow. Yes, cash flow comes over profit. Cash flow comes over revenue. Cash flow is everything. I can get somebody to buy a nice contract full of services. I can get them to sign. I need to get them to pay. That's all revenue. I can book that revenue, right? But the cash flow hasn't started. That's the problem. So cash flow is king. So I love the monthly. Even if it's a hundred bucks a month, I just love that. Stack it up over years. Just stack up those hundies. All right, it's awesome. This is something I learned a long time ago. That GoDaddy effect, right? It's like, I can get hosting for 295 at GoDaddy. Who's heard that yesterday, right? So I stopped selling it. I don't price it. It's on there that it's included with everything. I feel like I'm a web company and it should just be there, right? I remember this Seinfeld episode. Remember a putty that Elaine's boyfriend, right? He was a car salesman. Jerry buys a car from him. They're going down the extra charges, right? This is completely like hilarious, right? He's like, $75 for keys? He's like, how are you gonna start the car? He's like, so I don't, I always tell people it's included. We have really good hosting solution. I love our hosting solution. I'll show you that at the end. I think I've kind of outsourced a lot of services to my hosting provider. But yeah, so they're like, how come this is $100 a month? And I say, for a WordPress site, it's my weed out. It's my Chemistry 101, because I get people out the door if they don't want to pay that. I'm just like, that's completely optional, right? If we can part ways right now, if you don't like that, all my pricing's optional. But I tell them, I am just like you. I sell my time and expertise. I just require you to buy one of those every month. And for that, you get an hour of my or my staff's time. So whatever you ask us, it's always a yes, because updating your plugins, keeping your core update, just making sure the backup worked, kind of keeping an eye on it, even maintaining the tools to monitor it, all that stuff. I may only spend, what, grand total, 10, 15 minutes every other month on your site, but you get an hour. So whatever you want, you call and ask. I'll pick up the phone, and I'll say yes. And if it's more than that one hour, I'll tell you before I do it. So you know, you're gonna get a little bit extra on your bill. And they're like, what if we wanna upload a picture? I'm like, you can do it. If you mess it up, I'll fix it. Or you can send it to me, so then I'll do it. You're busy plumbing and cleaning teeth and making pizza. Just send it over to me, we'll do it. Anything, anything. It's always a yes. So they're like, that's not bad. I'm like, no, that's why I put it in there. Does that make sense? That's what I do. Who's heard of Sandler training? Anybody heard of Sandler? Yeah, Mark, right? What's up, man? Yeah, so Sandler has this theory. I love this. I took this training a few years ago, and I love this. It's worked for me over and over and over. It's a mindset inside the sale. Always stay behind your prospect and never get in between them and the sale. Wait, I had a, there, oh man, this is in the wrong spot, sorry. Okay, so this is the diagram. This is, the yes means you're getting a check. The no means they hate you. Right? This is our lives, right? And they're like wishy-washy. We're like, this is great. We love you guys. We're like, oh, I'm in the funeral. I haven't talked to you in four or three weeks. There's all these excuses, right? You're chasing them around. You're like, do you have no idea where they are? But they're swinging, right? And when you really want them to swing up there, that pendulum cannot get there. If you're in between it, it'll just bump into you and not get to the yes. Do not get in this area. Wait, this area. Stay in this area. So over here, anything over here, you're gonna get negative stuff from their mouth, right? This is like, we went with Heartland. Like, oh gee, right? That's negative. We went with somebody else. This is, we're ready to get started. What do we do, right? We're just like giddy for hours, right? This is, okay. The problem is when they are not here and not here, the worst ever, right? I would just rather get a no than just like, not yet. That was 2009, 10 and 11 for me. Okay, over here you're getting positive statements. Yeah, we wanna do it and we like you, right? We just, I need to have a meeting with Mike again. Okay, that's positive. They're talking about me. Here it's like, well, we got a contract with Heartland. I don't know why I'm picking on that. Anybody from Heartland? Where did I get that from? We got a contract with ABC Design. We got a thing with them all the way to February so we can't go with, you know, or it costs a little bit more than we wanted to spend. That $100 a month is killing us. You know, there's all this negative stuff. Okay, if they're positive, you gotta be less positive. Remember, you're back here. If they're negative, you gotta be more negative. Here's the psychology. Picture them right here. They're like, I think we're gonna do it. This is great. I love the pink. Your logo's cool. Let's go. I just need to get this in front of our, you know, committee or whatever in your life. But that happens on Tuesday and I'll call you out Tuesday afternoon. You leave there and you're like, we got it! Right, you're just like all over the company like, we got it, it's coming in. You're like a puppy dog, right? You're just salivating. Okay, you're up on top of that. You're gonna like, they're gonna walk away. You're like in their space, right? You're giving them too much excitement. You're like the little dog hopping over the big dog in the old cartoon like, we're friends, right Spike? That's too much. You're gonna push them away. What happens a lot of times in the negative space, they're like, it's too expensive. Okay, let's just do that one. What do you do? You go positive. You're like, but remember, it comes with this. We also solve that. And you're like driving them away, right? They are in an argument now. You are debating them and debates have winners and losers because to lose a debate means you have to compromise. Okay, so I say it's too, I'm the client. I say it's too expensive. What do I say back? It is. It's a little bit, we're not the cheapest. Just reinforce what they just said. We're not the most, we're not the cheapest. It is a lot of money to spend. Just agree with them and get a little bit more negative. Yeah, it's a lot. I get that. What questions do you have? So, or God, we really love Rob over at Harland. I know, there's for good reason. I know the guy, he's been doing it a long time. He knows exactly what he's doing. You need a good reason to leave him. And then they're like, yeah, right? And they come right up to you with questions. So you gotta, yeah, I just, I'm down a little bit. Oh, I know where I got Harland. I'm talking to head and neck surgery of Kansas City two days ago. And I bring in my big proposal. Harland is half price. Okay, how did I figure that out? My prospect told me. That is a clear buy signal, right? They like me enough and trust me to tell me what the other guy did. There was something repelling enough that he didn't buy on the spot with them. So now, if you're careful, like Harland didn't have a chance now, because I'm like, I told him, right when he was done with that sentence, I will not lower my price. I can't do that, right? I showed him a hard line of integrity there. But I wanna hear what was compelling about their offer. Well, one thing is yours has 10 pages. There says I'm unlimited. Like, ah, that is good. That is good. Question, if you gave him 60 new pages, would they write them all for you and post them for no charge? I don't know, I don't think so. I'm like, what about 1,000? Because that's far less than unlimited. 1,000 written pages? I think what they mean is 1,000 blank pages. Because I have a clone button that will make pages and I'll give you unlimited. But we're not gonna write them. They're expecting you to spoon feed them copy. They'll post them for you. So it's an unlimited amount of postings on your behalf. So it doesn't seem a little tricky of them to say that. So I will also give you unlimited pages, but I definitely will charge you for our time to write the content for it. Or if you give me a paragraph or two a copy, I'll be happy to put it in there. Because remember, you get that hour of, I'm like, oh yeah, Mike, what else? So we just went line by line through their proposal. And I added, I sweetened a little bit. I have a solution that I know healthcare companies need. I said, I will move that over into that for you. Can I come show it to you on Tuesday? He's like, absolutely. So now I'm back in the meeting with them. Okay, he's gonna buy it, I'm pretty sure, I think. So I took a negative situation. I reinforced and just talked to him about everything. I made him more excited about us, but I stayed behind the whole time. Let me go back to where I was. There I am. That's that, that takes practice. But my wife, Suzanne, is back there. She owns a massage therapy practice. We went through this with her. She's a little bit more of an expensive therapist when you compare massage ice, massage gently, which are right in her neighborhood. And so when she's, when she puts out her number, 80 bucks or whatever it is, they're like, wow, that's not cheap. And her response is, yeah, I know. It's not, we're a little bit different. Tell me how, right? You just drew them in, does it work? It works, it works. That is a crazy psychology that is always in use. Never give without getting. This just happened yesterday. Guy said, I had $8,500 we were talking about. And he goes, I wanted to spend 7,000. And I said, I'll do, I think I came in between. The whole thing came out to 9,400 bucks. I said, if you pay it today, I'll take that. So I got paid early. I just happened to be staring at a text bill on the 15th. And I'm like, I'll do it. But I wasn't like, okay, right? I'm like, give, this is respect. This is a business owner who is, in his life, is a contract negotiator. So I don't like to be mushy, right? I'm not just gonna fall over. So get something for your efforts. This is a big one. Do what you say or you'll lose everything. So if you say you're gonna show up at seven, get there. I'd rather apologize. Sorry, I'm a few minutes early. Take your time, right? So when it's a call at 630, just be ready to hit the button at 630 so their phone rings. Already did that, already did that. Sales, selling psychology. When you get into a meeting, don't put anything in between you guys unless it's asked for. The document can get in between you because you're discussing that. And definitely no electronics. Don't get in between you. Try and maneuver yourself so that there's nothing between you guys. Accept a pen and paper. So, and I would, before I reach for that, I always ask that no one cares, right? You can also, without permission, grab your notebook and take. Why do I ask? Because I get them to, I'm in their space. So it's a sign of respect and they get to say yes to me right off the bat. I start the meeting with yes and it signals to them that I think whatever comes out of your mouth is important enough to record. And that is a huge psychological signal. It's a big one. It's analog, it's free, it's awesome. Couple of other things. Mirroring body language. So sit like them, act like them. Smile when they smile, laugh when they laugh. People do this unconsciously but if you're a little bit more purposeful with it, I think it works. Is this gonna get you the deal? No, it's like one of 400 things that Google looks for. Just check more boxes. So just pay attention to your body language. How are you sitting? How are you dressed? How do you look? How do you smell? The shutdown is a big one, okay? The shutdown is if two of these things are in place then you have a problem or it's time for you to move on. So arms, they sit back in their chair. They arms crossed, they cross legs or they point their feet away from you, okay? Those are big signals that they're done. Anything you say after that point will not be processed or remembered. So if you ever see, so if people cross their arms all the time, if it's one of these, just be aware that there could be more coming. If ever I see arms crossed, I immediately relax in my chair. I get away from them physically because they are pushing me away, okay? That's a push away without being physical. So I always go back. I produce a little bit more comfort and I get ready if there's another signal coming. And then I'm like, look, I think we're about at 45 minutes. How would you like this? What's the next step? So I just start ending things. A lot of times you will walk into the conversation with arms crossed and you have to disarm a little bit because they're not shutting down. They're just like, here comes a vendor, right? So you ask them questions about their company, right? Ask them stupid questions because people love to talk about themselves, right? What did you mean by lean waiver? Look at that process. And they're like, oh, that's what an electrical contract is. Then they're just like, talking, talking, right? And then you're like, lean waiver is interesting. Don't chase, give a proposal, walk out the door, follow up once. That's it, no chasing. Meetings. Start with a contract, end with a meeting. And this is so bizarre for people to look at, but it's true. Here's the contract when you sit down. It's rapport, weather, J-Hawk, sports, Trump, whatever you guys wanna talk about to gather up rapport for the first few minutes. That's easy for people. As soon as you're done there, begin the contract and say, look, last time we talked and we talked about that link in your footer and that no one's really caring for your website right now, I wanna address those with you. And I had this set from one to two today. So it's like two, oh, five right now. So I guess it's like 45 minutes. Is that good with you? Yes, boom, that's a contract. At the end, it's like, okay, we're wrapping up. Whatever you say, how would you like, where would you like to go next? Well, I gotta meet with John. Okay, normally what I do is I follow up with an email or a phone call, but I don't wanna do that until you have to have that meeting. So should I call you on Thursday? I don't know, I'm pretty busy on Thursday. Or you can call me. Yeah, that'd be great, you can call me. And then get out your calendar. Get out your electronic device. You're in business mode now. And put that on just like, what do you say about 9.30? Yeah, I can do that. Okay, you'll call me at nine and then I can use this email. Just do it right there. Watch them get it, ding, ding, ding. Just accept that. Now it's on the calendar. Thank them back out. I end with a meeting. What do we do next? If you walk out without, then you're like, no, what do I do? Call them back, start the chasing process. Don't chase. So you're gonna, I always do a quick reminder. Day before, hey, I'll be out there at nine. Or I'll call you at nine tomorrow, whatever. I always confirm. But start with the contract and with the meeting. That's a good sales technique. The bridge, real quick, I'm gonna get through this. The bridge is how you deliver services. They're over here on this side of the chasm. Life sucks. Everything you have is the staff. Life is great over here. They do not care about the middle. I don't bring it up. If they're like, how are you gonna do all this? I'm like, we're a WordPress shop. Oh, I've heard of that. Great, that's how we do it. I don't bring it up. I don't bring up my bridge, JavaScript, all that stuff. This is the bridge. Yeah, we have the boat over here. Don't describe the water. They don't care. Address these fears. Be empathetic to these things. There's a lot of them that they have. You can come up with a million. That's what I said at the beginning. Scooping, we've gotten these like, I'll just do it for a thousand. And then they're just terrible for years. If you go to that URL, you can download this in PDF format. WP Engineers are hosts. We like them. They like us. If you go there, you can get 20% off a new contract. It's kind of nice. I kind of like them. They're kind of like Flywheel, other deep service providers for WordPress. Our 2018 service catalog is, do I have one of them? They look like this. We give a service catalog instead of a brochure. These are expensive, but they last forever. I go back months, months, and it's still sitting on their credenza. I tell them to refer to it all the time. I might go over to the analytics side and see what we do. This lasts a long time. People do not throw this away. Maybe they do, but anyway, I have a bunch of them at the back table picked that up. There's a card in there too. I always put a card right at the front so they have an extra one. So, when we go through my contract, we just, I open up the book and I just show them how to use the booklet to look up everything on the contract. Questions or stories? What weight is your business card that's thick? Like 150 pounds or something? It is a thick business card. This is the Lux paper from Moo. Yeah, I noticed it's in the book. Yeah. I'm wondering what weight it is. I don't know. It's people coming in all the time. So, if I can get people talking about my stuff, that's awesome. Anybody else? What works? Has anyone tried this stuff before? Did you get anybody? Yeah. I'm just asking, how big is your company and do you feel your content writing in-house? So, we have five, we have four people in our LaNexa office. One is a content coordinator, one is my web and graphic designer. I have a coder in St. Louis who handles some app work for us and we have six contractors that have been with us for a long time. They write most of our content. Thank you. Everything is systemized, processized in our company so we have a process for everything. And do you, so how much time do you spend? Do you do any technology currently and if so, how much time do you actually spend making sales? My me personally? Yeah. So, yeah, I have direction and vision for each client because I've sat down with them and had the most contact with them. So, I maintain client contact. I'm the client face. I deliver that vision to my producers, my web and graphic designer and my content coordinator. They actually build everything up. We write every word because I've been in the traps like websites ready, give me your content, write crickets. They don't know how to write. They don't want to write. So, I don't let them write. And I just don't guarantee my efforts if they write it because I know it's not going to work. What else? Is this valuable? Did you guys get, gleaned a couple of tips off here? Thank you. I like this stuff. Cool. All right. That's it. Pick up a booklet on the way home.