 Thrilled also to have Tony here to recap the fundraising academy cause-selling education. It's been a wonderful partnership and journey over the three months. We are so glad to have fundraising academy as one of our presenting sponsors and we of course extend our deepest and serious gratitude to each and every one of our presenting sponsors. You can see them right in front of you on your screen. We are so grateful for their support, not only the investment to continue these episodes as Tony shared in our chitty chat chat over 300. I think this week might be in like the 325-ish and so we are really thrilled to have the continued support and investment of our sponsors. So thank you so very much and again thank you to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom. I get to play the non-profit nerd on TV and in real life. So grateful to do that. Also the CEO of my own consulting firm, the Raven Group. So we've got a lot to cover today. Tony Bell as you just heard is back with us, Senior Director Office of Program Administration with the National University. Welcome back Tony. Thank you again. It's always a pleasure. Looking forward to our wrap-up conversation about cause selling. Me too and I was thinking this morning about how cause selling really is timeless and I was thinking about this because each and every one of us, you know Tony you and I were like over the last 20 years we really wish that we had this cause selling platform. Julia the same with a few more years added to that statement but each of us have really said like this is something that we can use regardless of where we are in our career and so I was literally as I was preparing for today's show Tony thinking this is such a timeless tool. It really is very evergreen that way. You're absolutely right and what I also enjoy about the curriculum is the fact that these skills and the skills that you acquire through cause selling training and kind of adopting these strategies will benefit you regardless of where you are in life whether it's a non-profit for profit. I jokingly say whether you're trying to get your you know youngster to eat broccoli you will use cause selling consistently throughout your life in ways that you don't necessarily imagine that you're actually selling. So also I love how it stretches us to think differently about our definition of selling. Me too and yesterday's show we were graced with Katie Warnick of a staffing boutique and she was talking about how now is a wonderful time to recruit in the for-profit sector in particular sales individuals and to really utilize that sales skill set into the development department of an organization and what a perfect marriage truly when it comes to cause selling. I couldn't agree more because you know and today is a recap so there will be some redundancy and some of what we might say you know related to some of the other episodes but again this is taking you know cause selling really is taking the best sales practices from the for-profit sector and you know changing terminology and structuring it in such a way that it makes sense for fundraisers so yes so it would seem natural that folks that are successful in sales and for-profit could become very passionate about a particular mission and be able to easily transfer those skills and cause selling is a great way to make that connection so you know cause selling is a great tool also for workforce development so for those individuals who are looking to kind of shift careers and move into fundraising cause selling and understanding cause selling I think will help you rise above the competition so to speak when you're interviewing for those positions. Well let's get at it because we are going to revisit and we've got the graphic up here which is I call it the cause selling wheel you know because you've got three phases which are very logical they're not forced and then within each one of those phases you have a step and so we're going to go through those today fair warning to those of you watching if you're watching live or you're watching from the archives our shows are 30 minutes and Jared and I man we stick to that 30 minutes in the case of this series there's been so much information and interest from our viewers that we've bumped those out to about 45 minutes in some cases a little bit longer so we will give you the warning at that 30 minute mark but we will be continuing if you have to jump off this live broadcast today you can come back into the archive and finish up with us because you won't want to miss how we're we you know move this cycle through so we're going to talk briefly now about phase one step one this is the prospecting period if you will that gets us going talk to us briefly about this because I think we don't really understand how important this first action is. Sure well I think any successful initiative starts with brainstorming and that's really you know in a kind of in an essence what prospecting is all about it's creating a list without limitations initially so it's it's you know looking at your network at the network of others that you're able to tap into and really creating a list of potential investors to support the great work that your organization is doing and I say it's similar to brainstorming and it's a list without limitations because you know step two is where we you know where we kind of dig in a little bit deeper right so prospecting really is just creating that list without limitations of individuals that may potentially end up being a super investor and partner in your organization. Now you had a really interesting thing that I wanted to put up here something that you called the Madden test which you've referred back to this throughout our three months are you really encouraging us to frame those prospects with this this test if you will? Yeah so the Madden test is a great tool to help you qualify your prospecting list based on what you already know so you know so I'm brainstorming I'm creating this really awesome list of potential investors and and who knows maybe I'm having a really good day when I carved out time to do this and now I've got this you know this potential this list of you know 300 potential investors for my organization well that's a little overwhelming you know and so do I turn left do I turn right do I do a back bend I mean what do I do with this list of 300 individuals? Well a Madden test or something similar again just based on what you might already know can help you qualify that robust list so now you know so if we look at the Madden what there's one two three four five six right so if if any of those potential investors match all six of these qualifiers in the Madden test then that's my hot list right that's my A list of folks that now I'm going to immediately invest you know additional time in in researching so the Madden test really does help you qualify pre-qualify your prospect list to help you again kind of hone in on on where you should be concentrating your efforts initially these are the you know we call it the Madden test these are the categories within the Madden so you know what is the likelihood that this potential investor has money or they are approachable would they have the desire to give are they a decision maker will they be emotionally attached to your mission and what need of theirs are you fulfilling you know in this in this partnership but again this is what we how we define the Madden test I always encourage learners to take our curriculum a step further you may think of other qualifiers it may not spell Madden but you may come up with other qualifiers that are important to your organization important to you know the community that you serve so you know so feel free to modify that yes and I think that is such a robust list like you said there could be other qualifiers but really when you're looking at a potential donor or investor I like that you say that Tony you know and you're saying okay let's brainstorm all the possible individuals that might be interested in investing in x y and z organization and then as you go through that list you can really identify does this individual check off this this this and so it really gauges maybe the likelihood of how soon and how likely you are truly to bring that investor into the fold and maybe even sooner rather than later which we talk about the cycle the cause selling education cycle and how there is no specific timeline for you know every donor is different so it could take 18 months it could take two months it really depends on the organization and I don't even want to say 18 months is is the maximum it could take longer than that correct it really could so I'm fascinated before we have so much to get through but one last quick thing you briefly alluded to this but I heard you say you know create that goes that person who meets more of these criteria than not might go to your hot list are you suggesting that we do like a an abc list or that we're even within this quantifying that that funnel even more yeah and that's and that's what this particular test thank you Julia that's that's exactly what this particular test helps us achieve it helps us achieve that abc list and again we you know we say a meaning the the list that will focus on it definitely is not a qualifier into into you know it doesn't represent the individuals in any particular way other than this you know these are the ones that you're going to invest in first because they have they've met more of these qualifiers love it okay so now we've got to take a look at this amazing amount of information we have and then we need to take immediate action go into step two which you call the pre-approach let's talk about that what does pre-approach mean yeah so that the pre-approach is is where you you know where you start kind of digging for data and for more information on you know on the the potential donors so again we so much great information right in in in the sessions around this particular step we talk a little bit deeper about how you can find some of this information but you know what is the giving history of this potential investor you know doesn't align with passions have you seen that they are supporting other organizations kind of in your same space or or just you know basically have you seen that they are engaging in philanthropy right so let's just start there you know what what are their true interests and what are their connections you know what is what is their kind of circle of influence look like and do you know someone that already is a connection to this potential donor that can can kind of help you along the cycle and and and when you move into your next step of needs discovery and actually meeting with them that can make that a little bit of a warmer introduction so that's really what pre-approach is all about it's it's it's putting on you know it's being super nerdy and it's putting on your investigative hat right and really digging into data glasses and your nerd glasses you know so it's it's leading into your your your total nerdiness and and the inner investigator and you and just learning more and I was thinking it really takes that brainstorming into like finding some some conclusive ideas so really taking that brainstorming from the madden test into okay now right where have they given before and and kind of what was that gift amount so it's really educating us in the brainstorming that we just finished and I love that you mentioned that because that's really important because that you'll have that in mind when we're talking about you know what are the levels that they've given rights because one of one of the things that that we can often be guilty of as fundraisers is under asking yeah I love that so that leads into the next step we're already in phase two we're into step three and this is the approach this is where I think you need to have the for me this is what I picked up if you do step one and step two your confidence is just moving up towards this next piece and so I think that's what I found so interesting about it and you've talked about making the right first impression yeah and you know clearly and this is you know this is not a surprise to anyone the value and importance of first impressions and in the landscape you know in this moment in time right now we have lots of things to consider when we think about first impressions you know when it comes to presenting in zoom there are many many donors and fundraisers that are meeting for the first time face to face you know via technology so just being mindful of making the right first impression from everything in terms of you know what you're wearing to you know what are the images behind you if you're on zoom being you know respectful of the time of the individual that you're meeting with right so just thinking you know if you're early then you're on time if you're on time and you're late right so just those kinds of things and again we go into much deeper conversation in the sessions around each of these particular steps but at a high level it really is you know getting yourself ready for the first meeting and what is that first impression and I'm thinking too along with the first impression it might be going a little too advanced in this but really identifying through your first few couple of steps that you've done and I did like this when the approach slide came up because this is one of my favorite things to do really is to like approach the potential donor and so really just you know doing the due diligence during your brainstorming really you know all of the the data mining that you've done is to identify maybe a program or programs that he she or they may really be interested in and knowing the ones to maybe steer clear of exactly I think that's really really a great comment and I think this dovetails perfectly into now we're still in phase two but we've moved into step four need discovery this to me is a little bit more nuanced yeah so the the need discovery so you know now we're meeting right we've we've done the approach we've set up the meeting we're kind of in our first meeting with this potential donor this investor and the great work that we're doing and so need discovery we also often refer to it as the heart of the cycle this is where we are more of a listener than a talker we're asking open-ended questions we're really getting to know the potential donor that's really what need discovery is all about it's it's it's listening asking open-ended questions listening so that you're making sure again that you're you're meeting the donor's needs that the passions are aligned that this individual well let me back up not only is your organization right for this individual because that's why we spend less time asking and cause selling because we're asking more of the right people so we're you know we're we're identifying here through listening if we're a good fit for this potential donor and we're listening to see if the donor's a good fit for the organization and thank you for saying that to me this is a magical magical piece because we're not looking for that one time yeah I'll write a check to get you off my back we're looking for that relationship as Jarrett Ransom says all the time the ROR return on relationship how are we marching forward in solving a community problem yes exactly you're right it's all yes cause selling is all about relationships and all about that shared journey to to serve our communities wow I love this okay now as we've been listening to you for three months and really absorbing this I can personally say I've seen where I used it where I didn't you know over 30 years of asking for money how it could have been better you know wow this is why it didn't work all of these things lead up to presentation and I think a lot of us focus on presentation first we think about this and we we're reducing our ability to be successful because we haven't really done the heavy lifting going in so this was what I was really intrigued to get you to dig down a little bit more on this because there are different ways to present your information you know there's different ways to present it but I think above and beyond that is that we have to again this is all about relationships we have to think about how personalized is this presentation you've not everyone wants to sit through a powerpoint you know and and some folks are more data driven than they are driven by stories and images so that's why the the cycle and in particular the needs discovery and asking questions and listening helps you determine the best way to personalize the presentation the best way to deliver the information and then we also talk about what you've shown here that the different presentation styles so so that's more internal for you as the fundraiser and what works best for you and and your comfort level some folks are great at memorize do not give do not do not give me a script and ever expect me to follow it that will never happen i'm not that guy that stresses me out more than anything me too because i'm always so worried about forgetting a word right or taking it out of like the cadence i'm not the cadence but really out of sequence that's the right word yes out of sequence that's well i learned this lesson a couple years ago where i had to speak in a small intimate gathering and they gave me they gave me a script and i stood up and i thought i had memorized the script i went totally blank i had no idea what to say in front of like 65 people whereas if i had stuck to the style that i'm used to which is either an outline or impromptu i would have been much better so we just talk about the individual styles in different ways that you can you can present the information but most importantly is that it's it's personalized i think that's really important and for those of you watching you know not only live but the recording here because you can go back to each and every one of these phases and steps to identify not only for yourself but for your team for your committee members and your board everyone helping you in this cost-selling education tool to really identify maybe what what is my style you know what does work best for me and to know you know so many of us i think have done the Myers Briggs you know like oh i know that i'm this so really knowing your style when it comes to this and maybe complimentary finding someone who has either a similar or very different style to accompany you in some of the cost-selling education phases yeah and i'm glad that you mentioned that we actually have within the cost-selling curriculum when when there's an opportunity to do a deeper dive for for folks looking for professional development there we do have a social styles curriculum oh good yes that speaks very much about social you know what is your social style how do you recognize the social styles of others and then how do you learn how to adapt perfect such is so important because now we move on to phase two step six and this is that objections yes arms wide open all day bring it my way right that's how we approach objections we embrace them we look at them as a really really valuable tool in the development of a meaningful relationship with your your potential donor and you know an investor for your organization the more objections you are receiving the more likely it is that that donor is interested right they're they're asking you these questions because they're interested they want more clarity and then i again positive attitude that's why i was like arms wide open yes bring the objections all day long because they keep the conversation going they you know the door has been closed on you so when you go into it pardon me sorry to interrupt i was just making a note that it's really them providing more information to you absolutely absolutely so as you know so we talk about having this positive attitude towards objections and really going into your presentation feeling very empowered and and ready to address them because again they're just a natural part of the conversation a natural part of you building that relationship i love this and you know tony i think that this in some ways for me should be the first slide you know i really do because i think that that's one of the things about the cause selling approach is that it is a mindset it's it's a path that leads you through and sometimes you know that path might morph a little bit you can come in at different points as jaret mentioned it's not like a you know seven days kind of way to get to this end point it is a structure and it's a path but if you don't have the right mindset some of this is going to be a little challenging mm-hmm so for me i think this is just like one of those things that is so important now you got to have the right attitude you got to have the right information you got to be doing all these things but ultimately as we move into phase three we're talking about the ask it's my favorite steps i know i love to see i love to ask that's that's my jam i think that's the thing that gets me excited but you taught us the abc always be closing yeah so you know so it's you just you have to be mindful of that throughout the entire throughout the entire process right so because you're uh and and that's not to take out the genuine nature of the process we we are gentle we raise money for for causes that we're passionate about and part of the reason why we raise money is because we love people like right we love exciting people about doing great work we love we love creating opportunities for them to leave a legacy we we we enjoy creating opportunities for for community members to feel relevant and that they're contributing right whether that's through time talent or or treasure so always be closing just means that we're always mindful of the impression that we're leaving on a potential donor we're always mindful of how they're feeling throughout the process because we're striving to get to this place right where we're going to make the ask and you know in total for-profit terms we're going to close the deal but it's been through a very a very empathetic relationship driven you know kind of process and we're you know we we still call it the ask because ultimately you're going to ask right but but at this point you're really just encouraging them to lean into all of the things that you've already got them to confess that they care about and are passionate about so now you're just asking them to kind of put a punctuation mark at the end of their sentence by you know making a gift for an exclamation let's do that look I I'm all about the exclamation point and it's crazy as much as I use that yes I sometimes interchange the word ask for invitation now I know that's not part of the cost-selling education so I don't want to you know place it there but for those of us that maybe think of an ask or solicitation is really scary I remember learning that this is really an invitation you are providing an invitation to these investors these donors supporters to play a part in the solution and so once I realized and change that vernacular from you know an ask that was done done done daunting to really providing an invitation like who doesn't want an invitation right no absolutely you know I really encourage those of you that are with us if this is the first time or you're joining us throughout this three months of this discussion for me Tony when you spent time with us and there was a lot of time that we spent on this particular aspect of the ask you have some great tools about how you ask how you invite being quiet not allowing yourself to under ask how to guide that conversation I thought it was riveting and really really actually for me empowering good because I could see going back again 30 years of this thinking wow I underplayed this most of the time it was underplayed and not overplayed for those of you joining us you know we oftentimes at the top of the hour and our time we are so committed to this concept we're going to be moving forward if you have to jump off you can catch the rest of this on our archive channel on our archives through any of our channels but Tony before we go on stewardship talk to me about that ask piece about what are some of the things that you as that person committed to your organization wanting to invite or bring in that new donor what are some of your best pieces of advice for that well that's a that's a really that's a big question no no it is well I was waiting for one curveball I mean we've been on that we've been talking for a half an hour you haven't thrown me one curveball yet so I was just waiting for the the baseball I meant to ask a ball right now I remember you saying that I'm gonna say that anyway uh no that that you know that is a big question again I really rely on the success of the process so again when you're at the point where you are inviting a donor to participate in your organization you're asking them for a specific amount of money you are not asking a stranger and I think that that's what's really important about uh the you know following this particular process again uh what I was going to mention about the ask and one thing that we talk about in cost selling versus what we might have considered the traditional model of asking again which I confess to have done for years and years and years uh is that with cost selling when we look at the percentage of time spent in acquiring a gift only 10 percent of your time is spent making an ask and that's because you're asking the right people and the more traditional kind of way of fundraising again me many years you would spend as much as 40 percent of your time in that process making the ask because you're asking whoever you're getting in front of right you're not asking the right people so you're spending a lot of your time making asks uh that you're getting no return on because we haven't spent that time up front really really getting to know them so for me the important things going into the ask is it has a lot to do with with your level of empowerment and self-esteem going into the ask so know who you are know you know what it is that you're representing know your organization so uh so that if you know an objection should come up you're ready to to answer you know or address the the objection uh so show up knowing all of that uh and then again just remind yourself that this person just isn't a stranger you have a relationship with this individual I love that and think about if you cloak yourself in that knowledge how different your ask will be because it again it's not going to be as we started in the very beginning that burn insurance write me a check go away it's going to be more of that longer term piece of the pie and that gets us to the the word that I think is probably one of the most powerful powerful words within cost selling and that's stewardship you know well you just mentioned that there was a great segue into this Julia because again you know hopefully the the contribution from this investor and this donor is not one and done and your stewardship plays a huge role in whether or not this is a one or done relationship uh so you know we say last but not least is stewardship uh and you know and we talk a lot about the different strategies for staying in touch with donors for keeping donors engaged for uh acknowledging and understanding the right ways to uh steward donors based on their individual uh you know what they consider to be best practices for nonprofits right we we joke not everyone wants another acrylic you know statue to put on their on their bookshelf right so uh so stewardship means different things to different people and and again the cost selling cycle and that process helps us understand and know that before we even get to that step we have a sense of of what's going to excite this individual in terms of stewardship and recognition for their their contribution and this is such a great opportunity to also continue the conversation with your new best friend about how the impact of their investment has really made a difference in fill in the blank right and so there are so many opportunities to really go back and talk to this person continue the conversation as i said earlier and that it's not oh great you know i i closed the ask and now i'm done i'm on to the next person it really moves into that stewardship cycle which i say it's never done it's not properly it's never completed right you're constantly doing this it should be a practice that you and your team really um take seriously but i also love you know the fact that when you're looking at this model and you said you know the previous model not with fundraising academy but just in general in the sector had been asked and asked often asked as many people as possible if they have a pulse ask them you know and it's this whole dialing for dollars which is i just think it's horrible you know and um someone did once say to me like oh i better let you um you know get out of lunch i know you got to go go back to dialing for dollars and i was like no that is not at all what i do and so really having this education and this platform you know to share that we may be asking less of our time right but we are asking more of the right people and seeing an increase in our win rate or our close rate because of the previous steps that have been done including that madden test to truly qualify the potential investor for the organization so this is a a product a program you know julie as you had mentioned it's over 70 hours so these three months um being with tony he has really scratched the surface in the education yeah i mean it's it's really important and um i want to remind everybody that we have gone over a little bit that's intentional if you've got some questions and we do have some questions uh that we'll ask you tony in just a minute go ahead and type those in um and then we'll we'll get the man himself to address these i wanted um kind of end up this this discussion on stewardship um and the the cycle of cause selling you have a really interesting exercise for us in a in a and a piece a piece of advice that was craft a donor journey create that plan what does that look like and i thought that was a really great concept i could see how you could deal with this just in your own personal notes or put it into your crm could you talk about that a little bit yeah so you know again it's taking everything that you've learned about this potential donor uh once you receive their their gift and and then thinking about what are you know what are the appropriate amount of touch points for this donor how often should i be reaching out to them what information would this particular donor find valuable do they want you know should it be all numbers should it all be infographics should it all be a story told by someone benefiting from our organization so that's part of of the donor you know of kind of crafting the donor journey is you know what what does that plan look like for this individual in terms of how i'm going to steward them uh and and when is going to you know and being mindful of along that journey when is going to be the right time to engage them again for another gift is it going to be kind of annually that i'm going to ask this donor to to make a gift uh do i think that i've already kind of received what i'm going to get from you know get from them in terms of an investment uh right now and tell there's something more programmatically specific that they might be interested in engaging in so that's really that's really what you know part of what that journey is is all about again it's being very intentional about that individual uh and and what they are kind of donor lifestyle life cycle might look like uh with the organization i love that i think that's brilliant and i think that is a good thing for stewardship going forward yes pick me pick me um so i have a question on this and i feel like i'm channeling sasha here with moves management what do you recommend tony as well as the cost-selling education what do you recommend when it comes to institutionalizing this information yeah knowing right especially when it comes to that donor journey stewardship plan knowing that that gift officer or development team member may not stay in perpetuity with the agency or you know the the donor may outlive um the the the individual what do you recommend as a best practice to institutionalize this information well i you know organizations really should look at their ability to invest in some type of crm or donor management system now i say that uh only because of that is a good tool for this type of information but the tool is only as good as you know right the information is only as good as what's put in there so we have to rely on our team members and development folks to put information into these donor management systems these crms but they're critical and you know jared you said we we have a revolving door that's not a shock to anyone watching this in terms of staffing and nonprofits and we need to maintain you know some of that intellectual property somewhere so that's that's where it needs to be done even if you know and i've worked with some organizations where you know it was like data dump tuesday and there was a specific time within the organization where every tuesday for an hour and a half or two hours that's what everyone did yeah they just spent time in the crm updating profiles like that was the time allotted for that i can see that right along with taco tuesday data dump tuesday after you've sat in front of a crm for a few hours you're going to need a good taco so it's so important yeah and you know you know obviously bloomering is one of our presenting sponsor nominal um and sasha here with moves management you know really preaches and shares a lot of great tips techniques and best practices but i just you know i want to make sure that this cost selling model stays in perpetuity with the organization and all of the information from these wonderful steps and phases you know again stay within the organization because i have heard all too many times you know stories of a new development person coming in and closing a really big gift now this doesn't mean that they did it overnight it means that they picked up the baton of their their previous you know staff person that had done so much work so much time energy and effort um and because that person left the donor in good hands by documenting you know all of the great information um then the individual was really again in good hands with the organization and so that is i just i just wanted to make sure that we recovered and addressed you know how do we best document this yeah and and and many of uh of the folks that have participated in our cost selling training have implemented these steps in their crm so if you pull up a particular donor record it will tell you what step within the cycle that donor currently resides in i love that even yeah so as you know as a ceo or executive director you know you could you could run a report off of your crm to see how many potential you know how many donors do we have currently that are in need discovery so you can really see you know what your pipeline looks like i love that i think it's i think it's just so essential and it does nothing but reassert and support this concept yeah so i mean it's it's such a great way to to to imbue your team with that cultural you know approach so before we um move off today which it's it's hard to believe that our time is almost up we've got um a couple comments and a question um pearl writes just want just want to say you are all doing an amazing job so thank you very much thank you pearl thank you pearl that's nice hey um sandy writes a question asks a question it's kind of interesting it goes back to um in phase two step six and she writes is it smart and that's the objection is it smart to bring someone with you so if you don't have the answer that other person will you know and we've talked about you know some of this and and some of the other sessions yes i mean fundraising is a team sport but you need to be mindful of who you're inviting to the party right you've been the one who's been uh stewarding this relationship from the brainstorming right uh whether it was referral or or whatever you've been managing this relationship so so just be mindful of who you're inviting to the party uh based on what you you already know and make sure that there are value add because there's nothing wrong with telling someone that you don't know the answer and you need to get back to them so don't feel like you need to have someone else with you uh to answer a question that you might not know uh if you feel like their presence is going to add value it's going to mean something to that potential donor then by all means bring them along uh but never feel uncomfortable or you know icky about having to say i i'm not i really i don't have any answer to that uh but i'll happily find out and get back to you and then make sure you get back to them i think that's authentic i really do it it's and cause selling encourages you to be authentic awesome i mean it's a process but it's meant to be authentic and these relationships are meant to be authentic i love it well tony you have been such i mean a charm into this world of the nonprofit show because i think what you've done is you've eliminated uh for so many of our viewers why they would feel like they missed something or something wasn't working or why did something not come about um and i i know i'm speaking personally i can go back over three decades of asking for money genuinely asking because i was involved in a cause not being paid and something didn't work or the pieces didn't come together and with the cause selling cycle i can literally see where where that occurred it's magical well i'm very grateful and and fortunate to be in the position to you know be the messenger of this great curriculum and and these great strategies i mean this this all really comes from you know the investment of national university and the authors of our cause selling textbook you know dr lill and jennifer little brown and their contributions to the space so uh so again i'm grateful to to be the messenger and to really help make folks aware of this incredible tool yeah well thank you so much tony it's been a wonderful episode a wonderful you know uh education model with you so thank you for joining us and again this is not the end of fundraising academy they are staying with us and moving forward so you will see more of tony thank you so much to julia patrick for being here today ceo of the american nonprofit academy as well as thank you to myself jeret rancell the non-profit nerd as ceo of the raven group we are so grateful uh also to our presenting sponsors again you see them online right in front of you here please go find them um they are doing wonderful work to help you continue to do your wonderful work out into the community so thank you so much and uh we hope that you will join us here tomorrow we will be back and until then please stay well so you can do well we'll see you tomorrow and thanks so much tony