 A Pan-Niger Delta forum, PANDAF, says that Nigeria is at war with itself, noting that the nation is facing the height of insecurity. And the Middle Belt Forum, MBF says, reports detailing how hundreds of deaths of military and security personnel shows that Nigeria is a failed state. Well, this is Plus Politics, I am Mary-Anna Colton. The Pan-Niger Delta forum, PANDAF, has stated that Nigeria is at war with itself, noting that the nation is facing the height of insecurity. National Publicity Secretary PANDAF Hon Ken Robinson noted that insecurity was worsening under the present administration, calling on the president to be alive to his responsibilities. He said the forum feels that Nigeria is losing this number of security personnel as well as citizens for reasons that are completely unnecessary. He added that governments must sit up and put an end to the unnecessary criminality in the country that has continued for so long. Joining us to discuss this is Emmanuel Iborisien. He is the national chairman, Pan-Niger Delta forum, PANDAF, and also Bala Zakhar is also joining us. Thank you very much, Mr. Isien for joining us. Thank you. So, of course, PANDAF here is saying that the country is at war with itself. We do understand that Nigeria is facing a serious level of insecurity and terrorism. But how is the country at war with itself? Well, the issue is that when you are not at peace with yourself, you are therefore at war with yourself. Jesus came to give us peace. So you find that the disciples of Christ were all peace-loving and they remain peaceful even unto death. But here in Nigeria, you find that the government that we are having is not at peace with itself because every section of the country is at war, I call it at war. You go to the south-west, there is a continuous crisis between headsmen, there is unknown government kidnapping and assassins all over the place. You go to the south-east, you find that there is restiveness, the Biafra movement for survival of Biafra is causing a lot of problems and ESN, and there is no peace at all. In the south-east, the government is drafting soldiers, the security agencies to the south-east is not even helping matters. You go to the south-south, you still find that there is a lot of agitation kidnapping, there is even banditry still there and unknown government all over the place. Then you go to the north, you have Boko Haram that has been there for almost 11 years or there about now. You find a new terminology, the banditry, you can move a kilometer on the routes in the north. You find unknown government, even bandits asking communities to pay royalties to them, I mean in a country that we have a government, so how can you say that government is at peace with itself, that government is perpetually at war with itself. What do you think is at the core of all of these agitations because you have made mention of agitations in almost every part of the country? What do you think is at the core of these issues that you are pointing to as a nation that is at war with itself? Fifty or ten years ago, this is not where we were, so how did we get here? I guess that is the question. That is what I am saying. The government of the day has failed the Nigerian state. It has made Nigeria a failed state. How so? It is unfortunate. The first and principal role of government has enshrined in the constitution of this country is security of lives and property. That is the first duty of government. But in the last six years, all we have seen is that every single day, what you hear is killings, killings, killing, and the government is not doing anything about it. What do you mean by the government is not doing anything about it? When you say the government is not doing anything about it, are you saying that the presidency and including the state government, are you saying that they have sat down in the presidential villa and have not done anything about the insecurity that we have been facing in the country? Can you really say that and put your hand on your chest and say that? The entire security architecture is in the federal government of Nigeria. It is not with the state governors because the commissioner of police is appointed by the federal government and they report to the IG, the director of SSS in the states, they report to the DG SSS, who is the federal government, they don't report to the government. So the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, all other agencies of security, they report to the federal government. He is under the exclusive legislative list of federal government. So they are in charge. So when you are talking of insecurity in the country, there is nothing any governor can do because he doesn't have a police. He does not have anything on security. I do understand. But does that also mean that the federal government is not doing anything because I'm not sure that that's because you started the conversation by saying that they have been deploying security officials to certain areas, especially soldiers. So again, can you really say that the government is not doing anything about it, or would you rather rephrase that they're doing something but not good enough? I'm just asking. What they are doing, if at all they are doing anything, they are, is not good enough at all because I take my organization, for instance, my company, if anything goes wrong in the company, the first person to be held responsible is myself. Because I'm the head of that organization, and therefore anything that goes wrong, I should be held responsible. They say when the head is rotten, when the head is bad, the body is rotten. So there's not much you can do when the head is not doing what it's supposed to do. So in 2014, Air Rufai, who is part of this government, was the one who was criticizing good luck, Jonathan, on the Boko Haram issue, that if they come into governance, that within six months, under six months, they will be able to quench the Boko Haram in the northeast. But since they came back, you'll find that Boko Haram is having the most strength. And then with... Well, the federal government might disagree with you. Since Air Rufai or the APC government is not here to defend themselves, I'll play the devil's advocate. The government has said over and over that they've technically defeated Boko Haram. They've pushed them into the fringes. They're not necessarily occupying as many states and local government areas as they used to. So can that not be counted as some form of win? Again, I'm not speaking for them. I'm just playing the devil's advocate. Can you check the number of people in IDPs, the number of people that have been killed, the number of people that have been maimed, the number of people that are refugees? Because that will determine that they are doing something, that they have improved on what they came to see. But the number is increasing by the day. In Corona alone, you'll find that about 800 or something people have been killed within a short space of time this year in Corona alone. So is that an improvement or deterioration? So it's really unfortunate that the government that is supposed to protect life and property of the citizenry is not doing its first duty. What would you rather as Pandith, what would you want the government to do that you think they're not doing? How do you think that government can win this war? Because again, in one breath you're saying that they've not done anything and even if they have, you don't see what they're doing. What can the federal government and government of states in collaboration with the federal government do to bring this mayhem or this level of terrorism to some level of zero, if not zero in itself, what do they need to do that they're not doing? As Pandith, what are you demanding of the federal government? I give you an instance. During the Babangida administration, there was this amroba, an enemy that was terrorizing the, what was known as Bendel state there. And Babangida gave specific instruction to the IG at that time that he must be able, he must bring an enemy to book. And according to the IG, who was from Acquirement, Etimea, who was from Acquirement, he said that at every point Babangida saw him, he said to him that if he does not produce an enemy that is going to sack him and it didn't take long, Etimea was able to get an enemy. So if instruction by the president goes to all the security agencies that if this happens that they are going to leave their job and get punished for it, you see everybody will sit up to do the job. But when you see that people are being compromised here and there, and they still maintain their position, so what is the incentive even for the other security agency to sit up, you know? And I think part of the problem is that the security architecture is put in the hands of a particular tribe in the country. So I'm sorry, as much as I would like to hear that, I'm trying to understand, is it the people from the tribe that are the problem, I mean because if a security personnel is there to do his job, no matter where they're from, they should be able to deliver that job to the letter. So does where the person come from matter in terms of dealing with the level of insecurity that we're facing in the country, should that even come up as a conversation in the first instance? Yes. When you are dealing with your kinsman, there is a level of sympathy that you have for your kinsman. But the oath that the security person takes is to the state and not to people from his extraction or ethnic group. That is an assumption. It's not an assumption. It's clearly stated to protect lives and properties of Nigerians, to serve and protect Nigerians, not people from the ethnic group. But that is not what is happening in the country. It's not. Let us be called a spade, a spade. It is not. Let the security at the top diversified into the different ethnic people in the country and you see the workability of the institution. So if I'm correct, you're proposing that we have more people from different ethnic groups, hold offices like that of the IG, the chief of defense staff. I understand where you're coming from. But how does that change the policing of the country, the fighting of terrorism in this country and of course making sure that there's peace on our highways? How does that translate to wherever you come from, if you can do the job, you can do the job? Does that even matter? It matters. It matters a lot because when you have diversification, even in decision making, you see that you will be more effective than when you are moving in the same direction and the people are walking in the same direction. For instance, the infiltration of Nigeria by people from other countries, that we are the same people. We have studies, we can move from Mali, we can move from Libya, we can move from here and so on. And then they call me because they are not responsible to the country. Therefore they can cause any avoc and go away. You know? They can cause any avoc. The other day, even in my village, even in my own village, the other day, the settle in one part of land in the village. And by the time you call the security agencies, they came, they ran away, demand the owners say they will be coming and he has not come. They even ran away and left the ammunition there which the police collected. I mean, how can you define that? I'm curious. As much as I respect the fact that you are worried about the fact that we are divided and there is some form of sectionalism in the country, but let's talk about ourselves individually. Let's not talk about the security approaches. Of course they all filter into society. Even the service chiefs, they are members of this society. Why do you think that the issues of ethnicity and sectionalism comes up every time we're dealing with issues such as terrorism, such as good governance, the fight against corruption? Why do you think that this is a from burner issue? Could it also be that we as Nigerians play a part in this, in broadening the lines of ethnicity and sectionalism, even religion? And that's maybe partly responsible for where we are. It is unfortunate that Nigeria has been run in lines of ethnicity, lines of religion. It is very, very unfortunate and you find that it will be very difficult for any country to develop with that kind of mindset. And that is the mindset of Nigeria. When somebody comes and he puts all his brothers in positions of authority and neglects all other parts of the country and doesn't care what there will be agitation, there will be fight, there will be struggle here and there, that is the problem. But if we have nationalists, people who really think more about the country, you find that the country will grow like any other country in the world. The issue of corruption, you find that even in prosecuting corrupt people, it is selective. It's selective. How do we go forward? How do we get beyond this, because we keep talking about the problems that we're facing as a country. Yes, it's good to talk about the problems, but what do we do going forward? How do we solve these problems? Because we have to start somewhere and it has to, again, start with us because the spreading of these issues of ethnicity starts from amongst us. So how do we also spread the solutions? One of the ways is that Nigeria, to invite true federalism, lets every section of the country be a federating unit to the entire country. How realistic is that? How realistic is that? How many states can stand alone right now? You already know the situation of states. There is no state that cannot stand alone, because necessity is the mother of adventure. So when you find that your state is not going to Abuja to collect money, you look in once on the ways and manner to generate money to run your states. That this was done before, so it's not a new thing. In 1963 constitution, this was what was happening, and you find that every region was doing very well. They were able to generate money and run the government, send something to the central government, and then the central government now manages a small unit, while the regions manage the regions. But in 2021, and our major income earner in the country where all eyes are on is Crudon, and that's our major exportation. So really, are we ready to get there? Because it's not as grand as it sounds, are we realistically there and ready to go back to that modus operandi of 1963? You see, that's where the problem is. Because everybody is putting his eyes on the oil and gas, and then everybody is just sitting down for the petrol money to come, and then they share. In a short time, maybe in the next 20, 30 years from now, oil may not be relevant. It may even be exhausted. What will we do at that time? You see, so it's not only Nigeria that produces oil. Many other countries in the world produce oil, and then they are not doing what Nigeria is doing with its oil, and that is why corruption is being brought in Nigeria in the proportion which corruption is going on now, because the money comes to the central government and people who sit in the central government, they just take the money the way they like. So I am of the opinion that every section of the country should generate its own revenue and then pay something to the central government, develop at its own pace. Okay. Okay. Well, I want to say thank you very much, Mr Esen, for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Let's look forward to 2023 and what it brings. Thank you for speaking with us. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you very much for staying with us. Coming up on PLOS Politics, the Middle Belt Forum is still talking about insecurity detailing how hundreds of deaths of military and security personnel show that Nigeria is a failed state. Well, we'll talk about it after this break.