 Hi, I'm Cynthia, and this is Niko Vokari. We are both co-founders of Besna Theatre, a British Romanian theatre company dedicated to challenging institutionalised and normalised violences in our society. Today we're launching GLOD, Political Theatre as a Civil Right, an online theatre platform showcasing every two weeks political theatre from around the world. Each session will be followed by a discussion with activists, academics and artists who will be talking about the issues that each of the piece explores. Tonight you'll be watching Illegalised, the show that we co-wrote and directed together in the UK Spring 2019. Illegalised is the first part of our theatre protest cycle that we're currently working on that aims to challenge and expose various aspects of Britain's violent colonial past and present. Illegalised was the result of a long fieldwork project that we did in 2018 and 2019 where we spoke to many activist academics and those that were subjected to and have been subjected to the violence of the Home Officers' migration and asylum policies. Throughout the discussion we'll be taking questions from you, the audience, so you can send those over via Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Our handle is Besna Theatre or just look for Besna Theatre and you can also send those via email at contact at Besna Theatre.org. Thank you so much for joining us tonight and standing with us in solidarity. I knew that you'd be waiting for me with open just like you said you. Did I ever say thank you for democracy, Great Britain? Did I ever say thank you? Great Britain for defending human rights, Great Britain for the school. They hear noise from the back of the restaurant outside. I'm going to be about your mental health but if we can deal with that everything will be okay. Everything will be okay? Do you think so? Do you think so? I'm ready to quit with that help. Oh you won't need to, you won't need to, everything's fine. We've been through so much work. Immigration enforcement staff. It's going to be you. She's clean since you're here. I'm just in the office. It's going to be collaborating with us. So let's take this arrest and we're going to start. What? It's going to be you and I'm going to start. It's going to be collaborating with us and we expect the two of you to do the same. It's a passport, please. The manager's got mine. He needed to photocopy it. Yeah, yeah, he's going to copy of it. Sure thing. They're trying to keep us quiet with the immigration brief. It's our job and someone's fault, yeah. We were just passing through for our rights just like you. It's my job to make sure that only people have a right to work in the UK. The company only could do it to shut down our demand. Where are you from? Do you have a warrant? Is she your lawyer? I can't have to say anything. You can't just invite him here. Let's sit down. How old are you? You're bull. Right, this guy, what do you think? Just answer the question. You're not altering. It's just brilliant to us. You have no right to be here. Stretch your fingers so I can ascertain exactly who you are. Is that really necessary? All this first. Stop resisting! Stop resisting! Just move along. I don't think this is home of business. Well, I'm afraid I cannot disclose that type of information. But for your own sake, I'm going to have to ask you to move along. Trust us to do our job, okay? Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along. Come on. Nothing to see here. Thank you. Move along. This is a pain. I'm going to get him off. There's a sound at the bottom. Good job. I must confess, get rid of it. I can't sleep. I can hear them running around the bed that this person didn't get rid of it. You didn't believe us. Well, just run outside a bit. Please, you have to sort this problem. I'm not going to talk to you unless you get rid of it. But do you believe me? Do you see it? Yes. I fucking see it. And I've brought it outside in the bin. Is that what you're swearing? Or did they rat? Doctor, what are you doing here? Stop eating this. I've seen rats. They're given this one in this house. I can hear them in the walks at night. I found rat droppings in the cupboard near the food. Yeah, well, you seem to be very catching them. Please, it's a big problem. There are so many. Please, you have to help us. My children are afraid to sleep here. That's your responsibility to make sure you have your mind when they get rat meat like you. What about rats? We live here. My children sleep in this house with rats from around it. Now, how do you know? You can use the bathroom if you want. She'll wait. I can't. But it's fine. Go. They're talking about rats. They're like every other animal. They need food to live here. Yes. And if rats have enough food to eat, they would die. Right? Of course. Well, you put two and two together then. You lock this place clean and the rats will leave you alone. This place was filthy when we came here. We cleaned it. It's cleaner now than it was before. Now, please, you have to help us. I'm afraid they'll attack us in our sleep. I told you that. They're not going to attack you. Rats are very intelligent. Yeah, right. Believe me. Would you live in a place like this? It's better than living in a part of Benchel, isn't it? What if my children get ill? It would be your fault. You'll blame upon us if you could. It's not right to make us live this way. Look, you should be grateful that you've got a fucking place to stay. Besides, I thought you'd just work together with your country. We're all here for different reasons. I was never rich, but I never lived in a place like this. Your company, me, is killing us. Daddy? I've been to the home office. Could you live on five pounds a day? I don't have to. I will. Five pounds a day to buy food. Clothes, medicines, soaps, detergents, drugs. Poison. I can't sleep. I worry about my children, right? I worry about their future. What's your name? Don't bring it into this. My children are Solomon and Delilah. And what is the difference between your child and mine? They're innocent. They deserve a new life. They've done nothing wrong. Don't you think I'm talking to them? Don't you think I'm talking to them? Don't you think I'm talking to them? Don't you think I'm talking to them? Don't you think I'm talking to them? Don't you think I'm talking to them? My hands are cut off. I can't feed my children. I can't keep them safe. I'm not allowed to wipe. Just calm down. That's your bedroom window, isn't it? Yes. Where's the rest of them? It's nearly eight o'clock and the sun is out. Electricity is expensive here. It's that tinny line of power. Around the world, broadcasters carried the news from overseas. British naval officers. More of a country. The other side of the Atlantic. A message from President- Could not be happier. On the joyous it. On the joyous it. On the joyous it. Could not be happier. Most traditional of ways. There's a large crowd gathered all in country. Putting out, putting on the bunting, putting out the flags and saying Congratulations. On the joyous it. That the guards might strike up. Congratulations. The interviewer asks a question. Would it be for the world? Who have been here since what? Of course, past five. In the morning, he said he allowed the 3.30. You had to make sure we got a decent spot. Yes, yes. It's not done too badly either. It's starting to fill up. And we've got quite a good view, so. Yes, everyone's out today. You know, by the looks of things, the whole city is going to come along. It's what I love about these things. It's that sense of community, isn't it? It brings everyone together. The interviewer asks a question. The most British person. Yes. The interviewer asks a question. Very proud. I mean, how will you not be? Well, that's why we're here, isn't it? I mean, I wouldn't get up at 3.30. It's starting to freeze in cold for anything else. Let me tell you. The interviewer asks a question. Think of goodness that's in the people of this country. Yes, we're honest people. Yes, empty as well. You know, you think of all the countries that we've gone to and helped to progress. Is that some of my people say same? Yes, I mean, we gave them everything, didn't we? Infrastructure, science, yeah. Christianity. Freedom. Looks like it's homeless. We'd rather than spoil your view now, would they? No. And foreign, I think. I'll talk to you about why we're proud. That's right, we've gone to and given freedom everything we do. Everything we stand for. Freedom. And liberty. Freedom, liberty. Equality. And trying to make the world a more equal place. And I think we've done a bloody good job of it as well. I think it's in our blood. What's in our blood? I really do. Okay. Yes, you're probably right. I just want to assure you that this interview is completely confidential. So anything that you share, it's just between me and you, okay? Okay. According to this interview today, but you've made this request, is that correct? Yes. And you do not have legal aid in the interview today? No, no money. Are you fit and well to the interview today? Yes. And do you wish to make any amendments to your screen interview? What? Do you want to change what you said to us before? What I said? Yeah. In your screen interview? No, when you first expected somebody, do you want to change what you said or not? No. Right, so here's a statement. Statement? Yeah. A letter of which you write while you're afraid to go back, but you're basing your claim on it. I know some of them. Well, that was in the interview that you were sent. Okay. But do you understand that I'm here today to assess whether or not you're entitled to protections from the British government? Protection, yes. Right, great. So when did you arrive in the UK? Three or four days. Okay, is that three or four? First I go police, police station, then arrest me three or four days. We focused on three or four, yes. So how many days we go to the police station for? Two days. Right, so you just said it was three or four? Three or four days, yes. I'm really not getting this. When did you arrive in the UK? I arrived three or four days. Okay. Okay. Where were you born? 01, 0190. Yeah, of course. Why did you come to the UK? Why? Yeah. Why do you come to the UK? I'll protect you. Yeah, for protection. Yes. But why do you need protection? I am an refugee. Yeah, sure. But why do you need to receive protection in the UK? Why are you a refugee? Because in my country it is not safe. In my country I am in danger. I must go. Why is it safe? Fighting, violence. My family in danger. I must go. Where did you come from? College. How did you get started? I take a train. And where were you before that? Country I got to know there. Okay. Why would you go? I have one story. When did you leave? One year. And how did you get to the UK? Three or four days, I'll tell you. No, no, no. How? How? Yeah. Car, plane. Well, car, car, big car. Okay, so Norik, what? Truck. A truck? Yes, yes, truck. I try and try every day. But I don't get there. Police beat me every day. Wet, border control, shout. Police beat every day I run. But one day I get there. Did anybody help you get into the UK? Yes. Many people. I have a job, many people in college. Many English people. English people. Yes. Give food, teach English. Right. Right. Why is that? I have a happy London protection. I'm here to decide whether or not you're entitled to refugee safety. I am a refugee, but that's what I'm going to be deciding on. So why did you choose the UK? Why choose? Yeah, why not claim asylum in France? UK is a good country, good rights. Many are ones in the big community. Many I want to start a new life. So can you tell me what date you were born in the UK? Date? Yeah. What date was it? Three or four days? Yeah, right. Or what date is today? So tell me about the war I'm in. Tell you what? Tell me why you're offering protection in this country. Yeah. Why are you here? Well, you probably shouldn't have told him that this was his first interview. I don't know. I thought it might make him trust me more. Let that humanize him. Fair enough. Come on! Keep going. It's not time for breaks yet. Right. So tell me, why are you here? Then why should I offer you protection from the British government? Because in my country, it is not safe. In my country, I've always thought I am a danger. The toll of all the fighters. They want me to fight, but I don't like fighting. I am not political. So they attacked me. They attacked my family. I'm sorry. You said you were not political. You just... Then why are you interested in me? They want me to fight. But why? I don't know why. Why are you offering protection in this country? And I need to assess exactly why you need it. So please, collaborate. Okay. All right. So tell me exactly what happened. If they tell about it. The toll of all. They come to the village. They're asking one to fight. And if you're not going, they take you. And if you're not going, they kill you. And they ask you, is there a man? Yes, of course. They say you must go. But I say no. I run. I don't like fighting. Yeah. Why else? The toll of all. They come to my house. They're looking for me. But I run. And I hear my mother screaming, shouting, crying. I run back with my sister. She stopped me. She said, she said, my papa is dead. I'm going to die. I'm going to kill the one that killed my papa. But she said no. It is not safe, you must go. I'm sorry. But why do you really say that? Sorry. I'm kind of like this. I mean, I think there's a dance to it. I'm not cheese, man. But they don't want to do that. I have a fear of what she's wise. It's easy to dismiss the claims. Well, they're all different, aren't they? You get some subs that are quite emotional. When you get some subs, they just, they don't really open up. Just keep going. Fuck. I missed it. Oh, what's up? The discrepancy. Yes? He said that if you don't go with them, they'd kill you. But then he's just said that he said no. There seems to be no immediate consequence. Because, I mean, it's not like the Taliban just going to check out me later, is it? Oh, it's hard. What are your habits? If we're sitting on these riches, it would have been a crime not to guide them gently towards progress, teach them value. Afghanistan. Barring by the Desh Cameroon. China. The Northern Republic. Egypt. Ecuador. Guinea. Eritrea. Fiji. Gambia. Ghana. Ghana. India. Indonesia. Iran. Iran. Jamaica. Jordan. Kenya. Kuwait. Let's go. Saudi Arabia. Sierra Leone. Somalia. South Africa. South Sudan. Sri Lanka. Sudan. Suriname. Swadiland. Tanzan. Zambia. And Zimbabwe. The immigration officers. Oh, sit down. One chance. Ah, look at who I'm afraid. How did you get in the vehicle? One chance, please. How did you get in the vehicle? Please. Oh, no, it's not that scary. Why? Because. Why? Well, we're all snakes. Where are we now? What are we doing here? It's just, I'll just take you. Oh, look. It's the way. All right, just give me one chance, please. I've been in Calais five months, please. Sorry, love. I'm sorry. But the answer's always going to be the same. Come on. How'd you come? I want to claim a sign in the UK. But you're not in the UK, are you? Let me claim a sign in the UK. Why are you standing here in France? I want to claim in the UK. But. One chance. Look, I know I got this. It's close to the very bottom that it's dying for. Well, you just have a button. Can you ask them to say? Britain is a humanitarian country, isn't it? What? To Britain is a humanitarian country, isn't it? What's your point? Why do you not ever have a G-Sensor? Why don't we have to give all our money to ages? Why don't we have across the desert, the food, the water? Why don't we have to run from smokers who want to kill us, to hide your police, who want to beat us, and steal our money? Why don't we have to get infections, to see our friends this, and love to be our child? I'm sorry. Tell me why. Why must we try again and again and again to get inside a truck to go to a humanitarian country that doesn't want to help us? Why do you treat us this way? Okay, sir. You're making me feel safe. I'm going to do it. Why are you at Britain? Here in France, you beat me every time you came to the UK. I'm sorry. We've asked you nicely. The world is a war between the European Union and the UK. I can't help you out of the police or France, yes. I mean, I want to help you do this, but... You beat me every time. So, one more time. There's no difference. The immigration officer calls police or frontier energy for us. That's the life, please. So, why are British and other people anywhere? Not free, not the hiding, not bare. I have a life to live anymore. I can't return to my country because it's not safe for us. If I return, I will be tortured. So, I mean, and I know it will be better if without me, they have good homes to become British citizens. This is my decision. Answer phone. Answer phone. The contractliness phoenix. I don't think that's what I'm talking about. I've done it. I'm doing more work. I'm doing more work. What are you doing? Come here. What's going on with Brexit? We've been on TV for about a day. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anyone. I've been on TV for years. I don't know if I'm going to stay at home or not. But until now, I haven't been on TV. What are you doing? How is my behavior with you? Oh, yes. I don't know how. It's very beautiful. Oh, mom, I want to see you in all the costumes on the street. You know? I've been calling you for a while. I've been with Maria for a long time. I don't know what to do. I want you to know that again in the fourth grade, in mathematics and in the fourth grade. And what do you want to do from now on? Well, you know, put the coffee to the table. What do you want to get? What do you want to do? What do you want to do? Do what you want to do, put it in your mind. I'm going to... I'm going to write a book now. I want you to write a book. I want to write a book. Ok, go to the office and I'll keep you busy. You know that it's not your problem. And you know that Maria is crying, being busy. Mom? I have to go back to school now. I'm going to write a book like this. I'm going to be very curious what will happen. I'm going to school now. I'm going to talk to Maria and I'm going to talk to my father. I'm going to talk to my father. Hi! Look, I want you to go to another job once you're done. You're my nearest cleaner. I'm going to text you to your address. But I won't finish you in time. No, no, no, no. This is overtime. Ah, ok, ok. I will go. But when do you pay me for the overtime at the last month? Sorry, darling. I don't deal with payments. You're going to have to talk to finance about that. But you always say soon, don't worry. I'm sure they'll sort out as soon as they can. Also, I know for the future, when I don't pick up my phone, it means that I'm busy. And I'll call you back when I'm free. Don't get caught again. Sorry. All right. There's no way that I don't have what I need to clean this room. I need more disinfectant, more biophiles. That's a cool thing to do. I cannot deal with water. Bye, bye. I get it. I must seem strange, intimidating. I say what I think and I don't laugh if it's not funny. I don't laugh when I want to be heard. And I argue when I disagree. I don't smile to make you feel better for the cheap service you get off my back. Because I haven't got a choice but to accept working conditions you wouldn't even think about them. Because I'm the toilet of Europe. The failure of synchronization could almost have been human where I go a little west. The toilet of Europe, land of thieves and hordes and beggars and squatters and communists. We're here and you want to send us back. But you still want to see us on video chat? Pay per minute to see a young girl. She'll also talk to you her vagina. But you don't want to know where she's from. In case the thought of her exploitation makes your election go down. We're here and you want us to go back. But you still want us to boost your economy? Make up your consumerist colony and lead us to features we're not born with. And this weekend the poor make the poor poor up all over the world. I get it. You find me threatening and intimidating. You don't understand the language I speak or the gestures I make because you didn't grow up watching people like me on TV. And the papers and the news channels are the news. Tell you to be afraid. Tell you to hate anyone. And you do. And I work and I start a world excrement from sweatshop toilet bases with my filthy second world hands. I'm here. I'm the toilet of Europe. I come to grave. You can all shit on me. I'm the toilet of Europe. The failure of civilization could almost have been human where I born a little west. The toilet of Europe. Land of thieves and horses and beggars and squatters and communists. Because I'm the toilet of Europe. The failure of civilization could almost have been human where I born a little west. The toilet of Europe. Land of thieves and horses and beggars and squatters and communists. Because I'm the toilet of Europe. The failure could almost have been human where I born a little west. The toilet of Europe. Land of thieves and horses and beggars and squatters and communists. Yeah, so you've got a... They gave it to the center to the upper end. We can do it in here. So you've got the finger behind the ear. T-W-17, very nice, very nice. Can you carry it? Yeah. It's just there, right? Yeah, yeah. I do want one on the shirt. L-U-1, especially if it's canis on the large side of life. What about 100% guaranteed compliance? You are not wrong there. Fortunately, human rights. That's what it's going to be about at the last minute. Your mum's going to be on that flight. And you... Excuse me, that phone's in his head. It's going to kill me if it's something like this. No, it's fine. Thank you for standing for a launch. Enjoy your meal. Thank you so much for standing for me. Thanks to your decision, this man was able to call his list and appeal his decision. We have one scene left for you. How many breaks, beating and stabbing type of act. Telling the truth. And then deciding to... I think he was looking for like a relative or somewhere to take or something. And a deep end to the man. And a guest, but... There were discrepancies in the sub-story, right? Yeah, he seemed confused. He opened to deliver a decision in front of all the ladies. Don't show that on the show. There was no hard proof. End of. So you think that should grant it then? We need to get the office ready for the party. They're on another interview room. We haven't put these up there by spending time. Yeah, sure. Pakistan. No. People are speaking a little great sound. Actual prizes are very good. Good. Definitely get a prize today. Very good. You see it? And you've got good chances. Projected loads of playing. Stop telling jokes. I know you're a tea guy. Hand me. What game was it? Oh, I can't play them. I just took it to a charity shop on Merry Christmas to me. Wait, we don't need them. What's the party? You can play good players. Many of us are crossing the desert. For a better life. Keeping track. When they faint. When they starve. When they're raped and tortured by smugglers. The drone looks on. The uniformed employees of the security companies look on. I'm going to get to you. But I always knew you wouldn't let me in. You'd be waiting for me. See what you did to Texas. But it wasn't easy. Before we get questions from people who have been watching, I'll just start with a few questions that we've prepared. And the first question is for you, Monish. And it's about the term illegalized, the title of the play, which we actually found out from you when we interviewed you as part of the fieldwork process. And I was wondering whether you would be able to tell our audience a little bit more about the term, why it's not being used so much and how, why it is important to use it. Thanks, Ziana. I think that's a very important question. And in a way, I'm glad you asked. So I will give you a long, longish answer. And I'll divide my answer into three parts for you. So first and foremost, when the term illegal migrant gets thrown around, the only image that comes into people's mind is black and brown bodies. It does not refer to illegal migrants from English speaking, white majority countries. The term needs a racialized body without which it is meaningless and unrecognizable. So the illegal migrant is a very, very peculiar criminal construct that targets people's very existence and not necessarily their actions. But the term seriously switches the way they are perceived by the society. So I'm going to give you an example of the deaths of 29 Vietnamese men, women and children that happened last year. The media recognized the fact that it was a tragedy and then switched the lens to illegal migration. Not necessarily saying that individuals were illegal migrants, but rather they were brought in or they were coming in to work illegally, which may or may not be the same thing, but it does produce the same desired effect. The official discourse also turned the attention to the problem of crime and smuggling and so on. Therefore, while the victimization was acknowledged, nevertheless the deaths were racially devalued and soon they were completely out of nation's consciousness. And we have seen this happening repeatedly, for instance, Kali refugees, they're suffering in the jungle camp or deaths during crossings, as you've shown in the play. Everything is put down to illegal migration, thereby removing them from the humanitarian or compassionate lens. This also takes me to point two, which is the construct of illegal migrants, which not only results in criminalization of racialized bodies, but also racialization of crime, which is the crime of undocumented or unauthorized migration. So it is a construct which is immoral. It is constructed as an immoral act that is undeserving of sympathy. However, and that is also un-British and contemptuous. However, unlike most other crimes being illegal migrants, it is a crime in itself. It is a crime of status, of these racialized people not having the status and not having a status which is in itself considered a crime, and it is understood as a crime of not having a status. So there's very lack of existence there in visibility or their presence, all of which is constructed as a crime. And this takes me to the third and final point. Crime has no ontological reality, which means crime and criminals are constructed and shaped by those in power for their advantage. Therefore, using the term illegalized helps us to critically unpack, explore and turn the attention to the processes and practices of illegalization and most importantly the harm or the impact of becoming illegalized. Yeah, thank you for that. And that's why we decided to choose this as the title because we thought it was so important for people to understand that a human being cannot be illegal. Just some structures can put some laws and borders in place to make you, to turn you into a criminal. Does anyone else want to add anything to that? No, okay, I'll move on to the next question. So speaking about language, I was wondering whether we could talk a bit more about the role that language actually plays and the demonization of oppressed groups and also how can we use language to fight back against this oppression. And this is open to anyone who wants to jump in. Just briefly, I think there is something about in order for the people who are actually doing demonization to survive doing that job, there is a necessity to dehumanize the people that you are oppressing. Human beings naturally, I think, don't actually like to see people in pain. And I think this is something when you look through our history, it's the way that by removing the humanity of the people that you're oppressing it allows you to do terrible things to people. And especially when we were looking at the ways that people are trained to do these jobs. So for example, going back to the play when you look at the scene right at the end where one of the instructors is repeatedly being told you must call him a sub, you must call him a sub. There's power in that. There's power to remove your ability to access your humanity and your compassion by making this on the person, not human. And the way that these words then kind of move into the national consciousness and the way that we attach images to those words make it so much easier for people to like forget the fact that there are real human beings but like to be affected by these things. And so, yeah, like, I mean, language is one of the most important things where it's the fundamental of how we communicate. And it carries, you know, it carries ideas but without them having to be sorted out in a way. So, yeah, I think, you know, language is one of the key things. It's one of this, it's something that has to be tackled. We have to find a way to remind ourselves in all of these situations that we are actually talking about human beings. I hope I'm clear there. I think that, yeah, that you've highlighted the use of language in discipline effectively, which is what a lot of these processes require. It's like, it's used in like disciplining the workforce that is effectively in part also being exploited to undertake these crimes against humanity. I think that which makes the need for language in the fight back as important, but I think that the work is even more difficult if you consider questions of corruption, of deep politicization, the watering down by the establishment. And I think the perfect example of that has been the current Black Lives Matter uprisings. We see, you know, companies, sections of society that are, that have blood on their hands, that are incredibly exploitative, putting out statements using the hashtag of Black Lives Matter. That doesn't mean that we've won because, you know, the right language is being used. This is all part of the process. And I think that it is as difficult to ensure that, like, to be vigilant and to ensure that complacency doesn't settle in from like mass movements from these campaigns, from these works and efforts, as it did once before. I think we, yes, I guess we see, we need to learn from the past and we've seen what's happened with, you know, anti-racist movements. The establishment has converted those into quality and diversity departments that, again, do far more of the disciplining than they do the liberating of people of colour and all oppressed groups within those particular institutions and workspaces. So I think that the task around language is actually considerable, particularly in relation to migration. Yeah, I think I'd also just like to add to that just to bring it back for a moment to law because it's so central, of course, to the play and to the title of the play as Monish was telling us that actually legal categories in themselves, not just the category of the irregular migrant or the irregularised migrant, but also the category of the refugee, the category of the citizen, the category of the national, all of these legal categories actually play a role in normalising and making acceptable violence in relation to some categories. So, for example, the category of the refugee is relatively valorised. They're kind of category where, okay, this is an individual deserving of protection. So we sort that individual into this group that means that they're going to have access to rights and access to basic means of existence. And then, of course, if you don't fall into that category of citizen or refugee, then, well, you're thrown under the bus in the sense that you will be denied access to basic means of life, whether that's the kind of destitution, being left in destitution that we saw if you even make it to the jurisdiction of the state where you're seeking protection, or with often fatal consequences, whether individuals make it to Britain or other countries or not. And so I think we have to be really careful about sort of seeing the way in which law itself and these little categories are actually racial violence. And if we buy into these categories as being somehow acceptable and normal and as corresponding to particular groups of people, we actually miss the fact that it is that active categorisation itself, the act of communicating or speaking individuals as falling into particular groups, which is the violence itself. And of course, categorisation and the language of the law is so crucial to age-old colonial processes. Groups of people were known through language, defined through language, filed under X as inferior, et cetera. And this is how colonialism operated exactly through a kind of putting in place of law and order based on people being categorised as to whether or not they had access to rights. And you see all of that same pattern being reproduced in of course the immigration law of today, which of course is itself racial violence. Sorry, I forgot I was muted there. Thank you, Nadine. And actually that brings me on to the next question which is about your book, Bordering Britain, and about how the Home Office is a remnant of a colonial institution. I was wondering if you could tell us more about that. Well, I think the first thing I want to say is that immigration law and policy itself, it's not just shaped by colonial violence or a remnant, if you like, of colonial violence. It is itself an extension of colonialism. It is itself an act of colonial violence. If you think about the way in which Britain was an empire before it was a so-called legitimately bordered sovereign nation state, I mean I would contest that. But it was an empire until it put its borders up and decided that its former colonial subjects and its Commonwealth and Commonwealth citizens who had a right to enter Britain couldn't do that. And so I think it's important to think about how Britain went about creating this idea of itself as being a sovereign nation state that can rightfully police its borders and leave people to die at home or to die trying to travel to Britain. And then indeed when people arrive, gratitude obviously was such a theme in the play, make it out that actually everything you get even though it's dirt, you should be grateful for. Rather than a more reparative kind of framework for understanding Britain, which is to say it's an ongoing colonial space, one that is rightfully contested and that irregularised migrants are actually engaged in a long history of anti-colonial resistance and that actually racialised people should see themselves as deserving of Britain as a space and a place and everything within it and as being entitled to that because actually it is itself a product of colonialism and it was what was stolen from them. And I guess we can get into the law a little bit just for me to illustrate what I'm saying, but in 1971 after sort of some decades of Britain's Britain losing its empire, essentially facing successive defeats, the government moved to prevent racialised people from being able to come to Britain and it did so by basically saying that if you were born in Britain or you had a parent born in Britain, then you could have a right to enter and remain in Britain. So basically excluding the vast majority of racialised people from being allowed to come to Britain at that time, 1971 Britain was 98% white so you can see of course who was excluded by that legislation and then you had the British Nationality Act in 1981 which built citizenship, so British citizenship on that same concept of patriotity, the notion of being born, being parent born in Britain and so what that did is basically tie citizenship to whiteness and so the effect of that is that if you're within Britain your right to be there becomes constantly present. Well, where are you really from? Well, where did you really come from? Whatever you have here, you're treated as a guest. There's no way as a racialised person you will ever be considered to actually be entitled to be in Britain and the law plays such an important role in this as having constructed you as not belonging because you were not white and of course what it also did is raise this idea of Britain as being post-imperial, as the empire being something that's now vanished in the past and it stopped people with histories of dispossession being able to travel to Britain and basically take back what was stolen from them and so I think it's important to bear in mind that immigration law is not some kind of harsh but fair mode of determining who has a right to live and who doesn't in Britain and have access to resources in Britain it is itself just a kind of final seizure of colonial wealth Britain's losing its possessions what does it do? It pulls up the drawbridge and a whole new narrative begins Britain's a nation state, a border nation state nobody has the right to come here unless we determine that and I think we need to push back against that we need to see that the law is this prop that it's used to teach people to teach white British people that everything in Britain is theirs and actually we need to push back against that narrative and try to change like you were saying at the start the language around who's entitled to what and conceiving of irregularised migration more as anti-colonial resistance Thank you A huge part I think of that is also to convince people people think that in order for people taking asylum or refugees to be treated properly that they have to give something up there's always this idea that it's a pie and if you give a slave so that someone else you're going to lose out and I was wondering maybe perhaps you Molly could talk to us a little bit about how even how there is this division within British society and how marginalised groups even within Britain itself or you know the working class are pitted against these other communities to make it seem like there's a limited amount of resources when actually there's just austerity Yeah, I think the current pandemic has highlighted effectively some of the most essential sections of our society how but also the incredibly dire conditions I think that it certainly wasn't a nice period but to see people that wouldn't have otherwise questioned working conditions, rights and questions of exploitation fair pay because they're now seeing who are on the front lines who are disproportionately impacted who are necessary to effectively keep our society running was quite crucial it obviously didn't still kind of reinforce this good migrant, bad migrant narrative there was I guess there's particularly in light of what happened during that period as well that there was a worry that again complacency would set in and as the aggressivity of austerity measures start to set in as the reality of of all those workers who are furloughed so many are expected to use their jobs that solidarity quickly fizzles out but I think that that is exactly the intentions of the state and the ways in which it's all set up and how we've become so distracted with I guess the struggles the daily struggles and violence that we are surrounded by and the spaces in which solidarity would otherwise build don't exist but I think that this is part of like this is the nature of the processes in relation to migration particularly illegal migration the state is under no illusion that it happens or that nor does it particularly seek to stop it it needs certain structures like detention centres like deportations in order to maintain the narrative that these people are dangerous, chaotic coming to take something from you but it allows for the many that do exist and contribute to the economy that give their labour to remain within the precarious position in society because then those people cannot join unions those people cannot organise, they can't vote they cannot make political decisions I wouldn't want to because of the incredibly dangerous position they would put themselves in won't be taking on rogue landlords you name it, every ill of society to strip though their right and ability to do so and that at times is what we forget in times of austerity, even something minor like the free school meals over the some holidays after a particular footballer had applied pressure on Boris Johnson to issue it what was forgotten is how is that inclusive of migrant children and that this whole layer was slightly overlooked, I don't feel that's the intention of those by any means, it's just that some of these small things remind us of this entire layer of society that is highly exploited disproportionately disproportionately exposed to violence to danger and a form of violence that is legitimised institutionalised and whipped up for political agendas Thank you and you mentioned the intentionality of the action, so you know that the state needs these migrants to be in a precarious position they need this cheap labour and I wanted to turn it back to Mournish as well to talk about the harm of the actual home office and how the conditions that people seeking asylum live in whether those are intentional or from your research or your field work, what have you discovered So in my recent article which I've titled The Permission to be Cruel so the title explores this permission to be cruel and how bureaucrats and those responsible for the administration of asylum and immigration regime enact the state power and inflict cruelty on people seeking asylum and inflicted through their actions or inactions or intentional neglect So I will give you an example of racist hate crimes directed against people seeking asylum sorry the state has designed a dispersal policy and after the asylum interviews are conducted people are moved to location and accommodation on a no choice basis So previously people seeking asylum were moved to places according to their language clusters but then the asylum housing became privatised and a lot of these asylum people seeking asylum are now moved to remote parts of the country which are often deprived but also they're moved there because of the availability of cheap housing and the assessment conducted and on top of that state has actively deployed the us versus them politics that Malia was talking about that divides the group and produces hate So I encountered cases in the field where people seeking asylum were verbally abused and threatened by the locals and they feared imminent physical attacks So several requests were made by the asylum office and housing providers asking them to relocate these individuals and the authorities asked for more what authorities did was that they only considered these requests if it's accompanied by evidence such as crime reference numbers or details of the attack So the claim of being fearful or anticipating racial attacks was considered to be a location and out of four or five requests only one was considered So to be considered as genuine to be considered for relocation you have to be genuine victims So not only does that indicate a lack of prevention strategy within the home office to protect vulnerable people but also vulnerable people who are victims of hate-related incidents but also reflects on the abandonment of the duty to protect life as mandated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission So dispersal of asylum seekers in such areas followed by refusals to relocate them and consider the existence of trauma which is already going through makes this group even more vulnerable to racial attacks and I would like to read out a quote from this woman called Nia let me just open up the document from Zimbabwe who was moved into a remote corner of north England and without any risk assessments of the area and the location Nia not her real name from Zimbabwe Whenever I went out these boys used to look at me in a bad way At first I thought it was just me being paranoid and going crazy I was going to see the doctor again then they started calling me with dirty names that kept happening for some time then they started throwing things at me I started opening my window a little bit to see if they were around if they were still standing outside then I would stay inside sometimes they were there all day I just sit inside and wait for them to leave my GP wrote to the home office and housing provider many times and after many months they moved me to a different location there have been several cases where people have actually died as a result of the policy and one of the very well publicized cases would be that of Bijan of Brahmi who was a disabled Iranian refugee moved into a remote corner of Bristol and on numerous occasions he actually went to the police asking them to relocate him to a different place and instead of taking his complaint seriously they actually thought that he was the agitator so yeah, harms are often intentional they're deliberate Thank you Puneesh it's horrendous we have just a few minutes left so I'm going to take an audience question right now and this question is from Margo she says I live in Glasgow, the past few months have really shown the worst of the hostile environment and has led to tragedies in the hotels where mirrors and the home office have forcibly put people in after stopping their section for support and her question is how can we hold both mirrors and the home office accountable how can we challenge them, is there a legal mechanism to do so what other means of organizing work better and I think that's a question that anyone can jump in and give their take on it Thanks Margo and I think that's a really important question I think since the attacks happened it kind of made me think deeper about the entire situation and I personally felt that it's really important to first start reflecting on the structural racism and what asylum seekers are going through to understand that this is intentional and the harm that's inflected on them is intentional the policy is designed to wear them out and break their rules so they return back to their countries of origin and there's a term that describes this we are living in Deepak Tide, Britain and that's the only way we can understand the scenario this is happening in Deepak Tide, Britain because everything is designed to inflict harm and push people out so I'm going to leave this there and let others answer Just briefly as well on this I think sort of coming back to the experience of doing this play as well there's a lot of the systems that work via people being unaware and not listening to the stories of people and the suffering that takes place is happening all the time it's happening under our noses but in our names who has grown up in this country it's really easy for us to forget that these things are happening and the very act of telling your story and speaking out and not allowing the British citizens to become complacent to what is being done in their name I think it's really important the oppressed to do this but it's important that we as British citizens seek out these stories and seek out the truth of what is happening because there's a level of outrage that is deliberately kept down by dampening these voices and the more that we speak about it the more we shine a light on what is happening the more people will come to take some action I think the sharing of these stories is one of the most important things we can do and it's the first part of the conversation and it's often difficult and not easy but is necessary and transformative I think I would just want to add really quickly to that it's not just that the cruelty and the instances that the person asked the question talked about are intentional they're also not exceptional and I think it's also on us to connect the dots in relation to the racialised violence that is so normalised in this country and I think it's important to think this is happening to these people because they're here illegally this is happening to these people because they broke the law so they don't count as good law-abiding migrants so they can be deported if we look at Grenfell another example where that very same argument was made but actually if you look at all those instances of violence whether it's in a detention centre whether it's in people's own homes like in the case of Grenfell whether it's the Windrush generation and what happened to them in the wake of hostile environment those who are convicted of crimes and sentenced to more than 12 months were automatically deported even though they shouldn't have been according to, they shouldn't be anyway that those who were deported despite having a legal right to be in Britain which was of course they denied them through the hostile environment policy well they're not taken into account when it comes to the task force and the compensation etc and it's precisely this kind of divisive language and modes of governing that we're subjected to that means that if we buy into the notion that well if you don't have a right to be here then basically we can just wash our hands of you you are buying into the idea that some people that where people are subject to injustice that's somehow exceptional but actually it's totally normalised and it has a very long history the British state has a very long history of splitting up racialised families if we go back to even transatlantic slavery to refusal of family reunification today there are taking children away from their parents in the course of settler colonial conquest and removing Indigenous children from families all of these kinds of instances of history are really relevant now and I think we need to be connecting those dots in order to be able to tackle racial violence that occurs today rather than see it as exceptional we just need to deal with this one little problem and forget about the rest but actually try to connect these dots very much. Malia do you want to add anything to that? Yeah I think that particularly partly because of the strains during the pandemic and other political events like this is an important time mobilisation and I think that we need to recognise that the state is not going to do that nothing transformative, romantically radical will happen unless the heat is felt from below if pressure is applied I think when over a thousand people were released from detention centres people thought well you know chaos didn't hit our streets there wasn't an alarming rise in crime and they weren't taking stealing our children and whatever other horrific scapegoat intends to happen by the right so maybe from this the government will learn that they'll change and realise this process is unnecessary assuming that it even had that intention that this was just a process it would always done it and it was effective and that was that you have to assume the worst because that is exactly the point from which the state functions and issues its violence and institutionalises it through these many different ways and so I think that yes my advice is to always organise wherever whether it's your workplace whether it's your building whether it's your local community whether it's your local businesses in whatever capacity and I think that this is as we enter one of potentially the worst financial crisis that the UK has ever had we have to be as prepared as the government already is to issue our demands and expectations and to apply enough pressure on the freedoms of migrants however utopic we're accused of that we may be accused that like those demands are but we have to start from the point that we believe that it is possible in order for us to fight to make it possible and so that's just my message I totally agree and I think that's also part of this platform as well to build up solidarity and try to unite people who feel the same way and think the same way unfortunately we've run out of time and I was wondering whether you have any final reflections just before we sign off no thank you so much for being here thank you for watching and to everyone at home I wanted to tell you that the next event that we will be hosting will be on the 20th of July we will be streaming Heavens by a Lebanese company Zoukat Theatre it's an incredible piece and I really hope that you will tune in and watch it if you have any more comments you can always send them to us on social media and if you have any other questions then maybe we can ask sorry we can answer and just thank you everyone for being here