 Any of y'all in District 5? All right, together with you. Awesome. We're not in District 5 right now, but it's because I kind of thought we'd have to need a larger room. I have a bill in District 5. There's more than just one of the libraries. But thank you all for being here. These town halls, I set them up mainly so that we can have the residents back in Smart Valley, especially in my district, be able to interact with your county government directly, be heard, and be part of the policy and governing experience that we all have. This is, we work for y'all, so I want to make sure that we're accessible. And so that's the idea here. We're going to focus this on different department or issue or policy every month. And of course, this month, as y'all are very aware of, we're here for animal control. Recently, we've had some issues that we've definitely experienced that have made it obvious that we need to have some changes when it comes to our animal services or animal control departments. And I've invited Amanda Williams to be here with us. And also, I want to make sure that the service providers for this area, the animal service providers, and people who do volunteering, we're also represented here too. So we have Lisa, is it a no? I'm not saying no. I'm not saying no. I'm sorry. With Athens Pets, and James Stewart or the Athens Area Humane Society, so that we can have that perspective too. So I mean, the commission, it's beyond myself, the entire commission, definitely has been taking this issue very seriously and want to make sure that the animals and the residents of Athens Park County are getting the quality service that they deserve. So we're taking this very seriously and acting on many things, which you'll hear in the coming minutes. The most important, I think, being that many of y'all have already heard that we are going to be voting next week on breaking animal services, not animal control, actually, calling animal services, out into its own department, after all, it was previously under central services, so that we can make sure that we have a department head there who has the expertise needed to lead a department like that, and also so we can have more direct oversight from the County Manager's Office. So with all of that, I'm first just gonna ask Lisa to start us off, and Lisa, what I would love if you could do is just tell us all a little bit about what Athens Pets does, first and foremost, and then also talk about your relationship with animal control, what you feel like has worked, what hasn't worked, and where you'd like to see that relationship going as it moves forward. Okay, thanks so much, Tim, for both putting this together and for having us here tonight. So Athens Pets is an all-volunteer 501C3 organization that works to get the animals out of animal control alive, and it works to reduce pet overpopulation in the Athens area, and to that end, we have a website, so if you've ever seen animals from the shelter on a website that's volunteer run, a volunteer started, Allison who's here started that in 2001, and so all of the pictures and content on that website, AthensPets.net, are provided by volunteers, and so that website helped considerably in reducing the number of animals that were being euthanized at the shelter each year, until 2015, when I incorporated Athens Pets and made it a 501C3, and we started raising funds to take care of the unusual medical needs of the shelter animals, as well as providing for a community-stay-neuter program to try and reduce the pet overpopulation problem more generally. So we work closely with animal control for a number of years as volunteers. I started volunteering at the shelter in about 2009, when I moved here in 2007, and I think it took me about a year and a half before I actually started spending time at the shelter, and so we've had a great relationship through the years and been able to work closely on a lot of things, but as you all know, it's been a little bit rockier in the last year and a half, but we've tried to work within the county structure to help resolve what we see as systemic issues that have been there for a while, that kind of came into service, and in the last month or so, I feel like we have a lot of reason to be hopeful that this relationship is one that is moving ahead, where we can all collaborate and have a strong relationship. We're still playing, we'll talk about some of the things that we've come together as stakeholders to discuss and to propose the commission to hopefully adopt, but a lot of that has come from the people in this room who have offered their ideas at the rest of us, and so we're hoping it will keep moving ahead, and the sort of issues we've seen in the last year and a half will be a thing of the past and that we'll be able to get back to just making Athens the, I don't know, I feel like it could really be a strong example in the Southeast. We are so close to having something that is incredibly strong between who we have as staff members, who we have as volunteers, who our community is, that I think that we need to get there and that we're finally back on track to do that. Fantastic, thank you, I really appreciate that. And Jane, kind of the same thing, if you could talk about what role you all play here and how you interact with this. Sure, I'm Jane Stewart, and I'm the Executive Director at Athens Area of Humane Society. We are a nonprofit, we have a rescue side, and we also, our adoption side, and we also have a low-cost spay-neuter program at our facility. And we actually do the, we alter all of the animals that are adopted from, or most of the animals that are adopted from Clark County, so we work, we see, we have contact every day for the most part, Monday through Thursday. We also pull from Clark County to, our main goal is to cut down on the number of healthy, adoptable animals that are euthanized. So we do work with other counties as well. We pull from other animal controls, but I would say Clark County is certainly our primary area that we pull from. And we've also done some targeted spay-neuter programs inside Clark County, where we have looked at the data areas where more animals are coming into animal control. We've gotten some grant money to offer free spay-neuters for those zip codes within Clark County. So we're really trying to help keep the number that come into animal control down. We also work with Athens Pets and sometimes we alter animals that have not been adopted but are gonna be up for adoption and Athens Pets sponsors those. So that's part of what we do. I think we have a, I think we, I've been there five years and are here five years. And I think we have a very good relationship with animal control and we try to be a support system for them. We have a medical director that's on staff that can offer advice and some of the issues in the last couple of years, it always comes to us whenever, because we share volunteers that volunteer for Clark County and Athens Pets and they come to our place too and also when we're coming in to pull and it's always better if they're healthy for sure. So I'm excited about the things that are happening now and I feel like this, I know that we can be a good standard for the Southeast. You all know that we do not have a very good reputation in the Southeast. And so it takes a whole lot of combined efforts from rescues and non-profits as well as animal control to really make it a good place for animals to be. We have a wonderful community here. They've been very supportive of us and I know that you all have been very supportive of animal control and trying to help and volunteer there. So I think we can do this. Thank you so much. And also before Manjul Williams speaks, I just want to recognize that we also have a system manager, Josh Edwards back there who's stopped in with us and along with Commissioner Russell Edwards who's back there and also Commissioner Melissa Link here. Like I said, I mean, the commission has definitely been very dedicated to making sure this just gets fixed and we have what we need. But with that, if you'd like to go ahead and make your wish. Sure, if you do. In past commissioners, That's true, definitely, yes. So first off, no doubt many of you have volunteered or helped at the shelter and are concerned and interested in what the commission is going forward. And I want to thank you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm the manager of Blaine Williams. I work for the Mayor and Commission and I'm in charge of running the day-to-day operations to go over that through the department. So I wanted to thank you all for what you do at the shelter, come to understand a lot more in recent days and weeks about the symbiotic relationship between the animal shelter, animal control for that matter and some of our stakeholder agencies that we'd be going to talk with. One of the issues was sort of the structure of it. It was a division of a department. So it was sort of one level removed from the manager's office, which is no excuse. I mean, we need to know what's going on. But I think if the commission decides to elevate it to departmental status, we will be involved a lot more closely as we are right now. And I think it's worthy of that. It's an important service that we provide to the citizens and the animals of this county and it deserves our attention. So I'm hopeful that the Mayor and Commission will approve that. And as Commissioner Benson said, we're gonna change it to Department of Animal Services because not only is control sort of a negative connotation, there's a much richer story about what's going on with the animals or should be going on with the animals. And so it's maybe a nuance, but I think it's important. Some of the immediate things that the commission is considering is what's abundantly clear over the last year and a half is we've had issues with staffing. And so we have Addis and part-timers here and there, but you know, in a good economy, it's hard to get part-time work and it's tough work that was shown here. And so converting those to full-time, so two animal caretakers, two part-time animal caretakers to two full-time animal caretakers, we hope we can attract a candidate that will stay with us, retain that institutional knowledge, build the relationships with the rest viewers and others so that we have some consistency in our relationships. Additionally, we want to make a voluntary coordinator and convert that from part-time to full-time because it's obvious that type of relationship management is vital to, again, continuous excellence. But with going to a department, the other meaningful thing about that is that the department director again will be interfacing with the manager's office, will be able to pay more and hopefully attract a professional who can do all of the operations and manage the relationships and market in the community to tell the good story about the things that are going on out there. The other thing too, it was clear as Josh and I got more involved in sort of looking at what's going on or not going on. And our partners, and I say our partners, there are lots of partners, so it's not an exclusive invitation list, but we started with some of the major folks that we work with. What was not going on was there was no formalized relationship and it's evolved over time. I think it was back in 09 that the Humane Society took care of the cats and then that fell to the county. There's a lot of great work going on where having turnover and staff, there's nothing in writing about what exactly is to do and when to do it and who to tell. And so I think that we would all benefit from formalizing those relationships and being transparent about who to be. In doing that, we wanna ask our stakeholders because they are knowledgeable of best practices that they help us with our policies and procedures and make sure that we're doing that the structure of the policies and procedures is sound. That's the first step. And so full transparency on cleaning regimens, on vaccinations and things of that nature. Now the second most important thing is being accountable to those things that actually happen and when they're supposed to happen. And I've come to understand that our shelter management software is an access database that was created by a past director that is very problematic and not only is it problematic, it also makes the volunteer work more difficult for identifying animals. And I've learned from Jane and Lisa that there's a product called PetTrain which the Humane Society uses, I think the County County uses it. And it's much more robust and it would make life easier on posting animals and not having to have somebody do that. And using that, I'm told, I'm not an expert in that, but that will help give us accountability on, apparently it has features like it will email reminders about vaccinations, vaccinations that need to occur and things of that nature. Now that can only improve things. So getting the right policies and procedures in place that making sure that the training is happening and the staff being accountable to making sure things are really done. And I will tell you that Assistant Manager Edwards has met with all the staff as of today individually and they want to be held accountable. They just want some structure in place and they want to be able to be consistent in doing it because the staff does care. Now, in moving forward with our partners, the first thing that we're doing is sort of the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats with both the staff and our partners to understand because, you know, this is fairly urgent work. And so what are the priorities we need to address first? So we're gonna go through that process and that is not a month's long process, Cheryl. I mean, we're gonna talk that out in the next 30 days or so. As I said, we're gonna formalize our roles and responsibilities. We talked about organizational structure alternatives. It was clear that being buried in a department, a division of the department was not helpful. And so it came to my mind, maybe we should go ahead and make it a department, but if we're gonna be true in our new partnership, I wanted to consult the stakeholders, you know, what are some best practices out there? Are there hundred models of how we might run this operation? And in a recent meeting, the group, and just so, you know, I'm talking about, Athens Pets, Main Society, Three Paws, Circle of Paws, Campus Canons, Circle of Friends. Sorry. It's all, it's all, it's all, it's all, it's all. Athens Canons, so these are the major places we, as I understand it. And they reaffirmed that, no, the county very much needs to do this. We don't need to break any functions apart. We don't need to privatize a show. And again, this was part of my education. They are, I won't speak for y'all, but what I heard at the meeting was, they're very glad that we're an open submission shelter that we don't turn animals away and that we should retain that feature, okay? So we got to do that, talked to the mayor of commission and said, I think we're all on board with the previous department. And so that's where we are. Now, so we start, you know, what we're hoping to come out of this squad analysis is some priorities that we need to address upfront. And I want to tell you what I've heard, it's cleaning protocols, vaccinations, and we need to do some process math. We understand who's supposed to be going and make that very clear. Documenting changes that are made, evaluate those changes and then adopt. So there's a process. These are processes that aren't necessarily global, okay? And it's not sexy and it's not rocket science. It's just paying attention and making sure that folks are involved. Above all, communication is normal. And we've been asked for transmitters. You know, animal care outcomes is important. We need to develop some key performance indicators. You know, one of the things I've heard in our discussion in this, the methodology of determining what is an unwanted app or unadoptable. And I can't pretend to understand that, but we're gonna develop that methodology and that will be transparent. And then we need to follow that as closely as we can. So key performance indicators, you know, accountability, implementing changes, animal care outcomes, you know, tracking those and benchmarking with other shelters, right? Is there, our models are not so good. We need to find some good aspirational shelters and see how we stack up, I guess, before so that we all understand we're not just looking at data in one silent. So what we'd like to do is do a strategic plan with our partners and staff input and share that with you all about what some changes are gonna be made with milestones we can all track so that, you know, it won't be an overnight change to be gradually, and I agree with Lisa, most of our departments are models in the state and there's no reason to have the sources should not be that. One of the things I'd like to mention is, you know, we all need to have a common purpose. And I think we all have the same goals in mind, but sitting with our partners, we talked about, and y'all let me know if I forgot anything, but you know, not in this order, but you know, protecting the public from dangerous animals, protecting animals from inhumane treatment, educating owners about care, housing and caring for animals that are in our possession with our partners, convey them to caring homes, and then the campus cat shop is alter them and return them to their territory of public. So those are the things that we said, this is what will be real, this is what we're trying to accomplish. And so now that's the what, and we're gonna begin working on how. Well, do you have a bit of a timeline for the strategic plan when you guys have been thinking about seeing that done? Sure, so again, I wanna brag on my new hire, Josh Edwards, who comes to us from Durham, North Carolina, and his specialty is strategic planning and performance measures, so just a man for the job. We'll do the swaths in the next three weeks of 30 days. Then we have to come up as he's educating me with overarching objectives we're trying to achieve. No doubt I just listed those for you. Then there are action items we wanna develop with the partners and the staff that address these weaknesses and opportunities and threats. You develop performance measures, once you know the action items, and then when you review and agree on the draft plan, there'll be a presentation to the commission and a work session televised, and then we present to the commissioners with their acceptance. And so timeline-wise, that's probably, that's probably four months, I would guess, just to get through all that, but it'll be done in full view. No question. I didn't notice, I didn't hear anybody mention the problem with U-Terry College students adopting pets and then turning them loose when they either move or gradually, and that's a huge kind of particular problem of stray dogs and cats and animals. Every year, I like to talk about it, but it's like the letting loose of pets. I like to deal with that list of things to address. I can actually address that somewhat, even if the data doesn't show that that's what happens. We don't have the spines eating impound for stray animals. They may, it would correspond to that. We also don't have it in December. Actually, December is a fairly low impound month. 80s doesn't start to pick up some, but June, July, and August are much higher. We're not seeing the animals that correspond with the semester schedule. There's undoubtedly some that that happens with, but I don't know that that's as big of a problem as unaltered pets. For example, in most communities, you're gonna have about 80% of our pets are altered. And when we see the animals coming in, the animal controllers are happening in the opposite. More 80% are not altered. And so we see the problems, despite we see our correspond to new literates in many ways where people trading in their year and a half old dog for a puppy. And it's not actually from what we've seen in the data as tied to college students, as you might think. I'd like to raise something that's been on my mind for a long time. It's maybe tangential to this, but it's relative. Anybody, it seems, can put an ad in the banner here or put a flag on it and give away their dog. Staying, not staying at all, and I would love to see, and I think California has this, has instituted this, where the newspaper will offer a free ad, okay, if your dog is licensed and spayed and so forth and so on. And if you are just giving your dog away, then we'd get a few fees for the ad. That's just one suggestion, but it's definitely a black hole. The newspapers are black hole for unwanted, you know. Well, if I might go quick, this is a conversation that y'all, none of y'all have before, but we really need to talk about it. And certainly don't want to create any political issues with American mission, but we're talking about a very reactive approach. And I want to applaud the work that your organizations do in actually bringing resources to alter animals. You know, we need to get to a point where we have many more altered animals than not. And again, I'm learning that there's seasonal times to be intentional about that. And I think Jamie told me y'all got the grants. And we've got two grants to help with altering, pre-altering, altering for people who live in those specific areas of clothing on. But then we've never had that, we take our animals back, so as far as the going back to a college student, and I've never seen a big influx of returning animals. We do chip all of our animals, so we would know if somebody did that, right? Because if animal control picked them up, typically they'll call us. No, but if animal control's gonna end up picking them up in the field, and they would be altered, too. So does animal control chip all of them? At this point, they don't chip the ones that are in their rescues, but our local rescue providers all chip them on. They should all be adopted. Adopted. And sometimes the students make them to like a gymnasium, or they'll be adopted by the farmer and they'll be fine, and they'll be there, but how did this thing of the animal turn out to be a lot? So were you following them on this one or else? I am. Okay. I am. So it didn't, y'all didn't, and I understand the problems because it didn't go to the local going to involve a new taker, but I do see that as a critical piece in if we're going to make Athens the humane community that we all want to be in just for a litter in the valley of town, what the flag holds to give away. What's, who's accountable to that? That's a way that's considered. And I think that would be something I would think that the taker would have to, you know, they would have to have our role that, you know, and maybe they could reach out to us, or, you know, certainly they could reach out to us to get the animals altered, but more than that, it's not in there. Well, it starts with progress, it's going to the newspaper and asking them to do that. Well, it's going to the newspaper and asking them to do that. Well, it's going to the newspaper and asking them to do that. Well, they start with the laws of right, but the problem is that we see all the online things and those aren't going to be affected. They're all free anyway. The Facebook posts, Facebook groups that are all about where you're going to sell. I've said this was creating control, but low-budget and crime was everywhere else. But low-budget and anti-crime. Yeah, I think that's what I'm talking about. So that's what I need to do, is go up there and, okay, so what is this partnership that could, this be considered a potential partnership in the paper? How would I approach that? I guess I'm asking your suggestion. What you said, you've seen this in other communities? California, I believe, has had this long-standing law, I guess, over a period of time, I guess. I think we can take a model and show it to them and say, yeah, I think the best thing to do, yeah, we can still search. Yeah, probably, yeah, because I get in the black, bold manner here and both, right into T's then, if I think that may be the right time. Okay, so we had a few more questions up. Paul, did you have one? I mean, I suggested years ago, if there's a problem with having enough personnel to fix animals, I, for one, volunteered. I'm sure there'd be other folks, and I mentioned this to a bet and a few other people, and they will all outrage that I had the audacity to offer my services not having been through 10 years of college and vet school, or what have you. But every farm boy I've ever met has castrated animals in a compassionate and skillful manner without killing them. So that suggestion, what would it be a way to release the help of the community to assist veterinarians in this endeavor for free? I mean, of course. The other thing is more of a question. I mean, I know that there are birth control methods that last for a few months, maybe a few years for women. Does the same thing exist for animals? And if so, could that be done for free or for real cheap? And to continue the thought, if the answer is yes, is it possible, and again, I'm going to volunteer to just to run an ad saying we will visit you to fix your animal spade, neuter, alt, or whatever the term is, to alter your animals. Just let us know when you'll be there. We'll come out with the necessary equipment. And if it's just an injection, it might be quick and easy and cheap in the long run then dealing with an overabundance of unwanted pets. And this may involve, I'll talk about one thing. I'll just, like, help all people who can volunteer with those organizations. And then if you want to talk about... Yeah, we couldn't have to be an entity to do this, certainly for sure. But we do take volunteers that help, you know, that is our spade neuter program. It operates Monday through Thursday. Sometimes we have Fridays. And we have people that come in and help wrap pets or, you know, that kind of thing. Watch the animals when they're recovering from them. But a license that always does the surgery and we would always want that to be the case. There is a form of... Both control. Yeah, it's... You can alter an animal with chemicals, but... Zootering. It's called zootering. And there have been some different thoughts on that as far as how it... Thank you. You know, it doesn't help so much with some of the behavioral issues that animals can have. And it's only for males, as far as I know. I don't think they can do that. Yeah, well, they're great. We have a vet in here. You can tell us about that. But I know when I worked for another rescue, he did some. But it hasn't been a really popular... It's been a lot of tissue reactivity afterwards. Right. And also you have more than all the cells did. Are we still secreting? Right. And it's about the same price, dude. It's not a cheap... It's not a cheap... It's not a cheap measure. Is that kind of procrastination you're referring to? I'm referring to birth control for female pets and dogs. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that. And if it wouldn't work... A lot of our lives are regulating extras, but... More railways. Right. Promise, yes. All right. Thanks, David. Thank you. It's fine. Another hour. We haven't really talked much about the shelter. So what we... I have a couple of things I wanted to ask about. First of all, the Humane Society does a fabulous job with the state user, but we have such a problem in part. There are so many cats that need feral things that need to be fixed. And I feel like what we really need... Because now they also have to implement an employment process. So for me as somebody who might track the cat, you know, I can track one and then find that stuff within the next three weeks or whatever, because I can't get them to work. Yeah. What we really do with is a vet at the animal control that can reduce pain neuter and to overseen all of these, you know, various medical issues. And then the other related thing about medicine stuff is that, you know, if you catch a feral kitten, you can guarantee it's not a respiratory infection, an eye infection, worms. At the very least, oh, probably, a screenworm. So, you know, I don't have all these things. And I don't see why Athens Pets is having to raise money to spend money on basic treatments that these animals should be getting, those things and other, you know, antibiotics or whatever, when they come into the shelter and on an ongoing basis. So I feel like the county needs to, and I realize the problems we can have are really manicure problems, but we need to put more money into this so that we can have do more space needed to and try and put the problem off of the point difference where it starts, but also to help the animals that are in the shelter, both cats and dogs. So that's those are great points and I don't disagree. And that would be part of this plan that we're coming out with. We would identify certain solutions and we would put numbers to them and then, you know, so this is important that the mayor and commission don't adopt the plan and accept the plan. They're saying, okay, we understand this is good work and they reserve the right to kind of decide, you know, because you've got to jump on things across the county about which ones they'll do, but at least in the formalization of our roles, how can we work better together? You know, what is creating a tremendous amount of drag on our partners that we can pick up. You know, those are the conversations that we're going to have, the numbers to it, prioritize them and then, you know, budget discussion is starting in a couple of months. Mayor and commission adopt the budget in June. It takes effect to a lot of persons to start with. So, this is good time, you know, in the next four months we will buy these things and then we can know what the, you know, kind of emergent resources might be and that could very well be a part of the switch. But I agree with you and that's not what I said before. We need to get to your head owners doing that. We certainly can't, y'all can't do it all by yourself. Maybe we're helping too and maybe there's more to it. But I agree with you, we gotta get ahead of the problem. Yeah. Around 20 years ago, there was so many cats at Athens, Georgia that the B-line leukemia virus mutated into an actual different virus. And it wiped out all the cats because I was volunteering, I worked at the vet school, blah, blah, blah. And I finally talked to one veterinarian who actually knew Dr. Laffett who did a study on why that happened. So that's a point. A second point is that we are next door to Madison County which is a very large agricultural, I think it's largest in North Georgia. I don't think people are aware how far a cat can go. Okay? Madison County's issue with cats is controlled by coyotes. So they don't have an issue with that out there. But and I have a friend who does wildlife rescue and she and I talked to what I could say to her, why does this happen? And understanding the behavior of an animal, the species and understanding how far they go, I had just recently moved into Athens from the county and even though I have studied animal behavior forever, living in the city was the first time I realized that dogs can communicate with each other and we have no clue. And I mean my dog let me know that there's an animal coming. There's a woman named Temple Brinton who her books explained that dogs can tell that there's another dog coming and whether or not it has a issue or not. So she's a great place that anybody wants to understand issues. She's a wonderful source. 75 years old she's autistic. Okay, she's worked with animals forever. As far as trying to have a and I wanted to say that it's wonderful to think about how we're doing in California but we definitely are not in California. And I love hearing how other places are helping in making that game. And I think it's a matter of a dog listening to that idea which is great and trying to figure out how to juggle it. So that we end up with healthy dogs healthy dogs and we all have a dog. So, thank you. Awesome. I just want to also point out that I'm the chair of the audit committee and the audit committee is recommended a operational analysis of the animal shelter and we've expanded that. We initially recommended it last year after the incident last year and it ended up getting postponed and we were told that the issues had been resolved and the chair of the department that was expanded figured that we expected to have that going on longer than expected but we just voted to revive that recommendation for an audit for the animal shelter and we've expanded it to also include a financial and budgetary element. So our audit committee deeper dive into not only the operations but the budgeting for the department to make sure that we are properly funding this department and that the operations are going where they need to go. I also want to point out that as elected official I hope that we will have some discussions about new ordinances on how to control the population. We know every year the population goes up and we know why because puppies are born and kittens are born and the way to stop that is strongly encourages staying and muttering and other means of control. I know as a predator myself I don't have children so my pets are in the universe. People will go above and beyond to take care of their pets and there are resources out there for those who are unable to afford it to make sure that just because you might be low income status doesn't mean that your family so I think that having that outside independent analysis from our auditor can also bring some new ideas to the table can take a look at what other communities are doing and can also you know do a deeper dive into the fiscal and budgetary issues that kind of bothers for the day. Melissa, don't correct we're going to be voting on that audit also on Tuesday right? So what was the perspective time horizon be on like what is that it would enough be done that it would play in with the revisions that we're talking about because it would be nice to figure out the stuff that volunteers don't know or county management don't know people with a shelter a long time might just not see it anymore because you know it's what you do every day both the good end of that because we don't want to throw out people through this incident last year's incident and through the work that y'all have been doing you know we feel like the auditor could not you know a substantial audit out within you know a few months when she gets started and she's ready to do some of that preliminary work you know as soon as we go ahead on Tuesday night and I know that you know Russell's on committee too you know we've had some discussion about you know and you know what we could propose you know depending on what she comes up with but also doing that research and finding out what it's done in other community and really making some laws here in Evans Park County that will solve the problem not just you know deal with you know offer up solutions for the problem but actually solve the problem that it's for my question kind of deals with the law and the one that says about it you kind of mentioned that probably wasn't so much you didn't really feel like college students were the issue but that perhaps people taking types of return and I'm wondering if you guys have any idea like any sort of restrictions on people who are like like like like like like seeing it a lot as a issue in other areas but it's so much of an issue to grant as you were seeing a lot of it media and that sort of thing and I feel like it's a fair process and not a very good way educating people about prevention as a you know staying new is the main way but there are other ways to educate people as far as prevention and one of the ways would be to not allow them to take cuts that they shouldn't be taking well we would not take in a senior but we we're limited so we get to take and choose what are the problems with people but if someone suppresses these jobs we would not let them turn in and adopt about about that you know that would be would you have some way of I mean you know we would run a comeback a month later but we do have a list of people by somebody paid and it's a deadline right so we do have we haven't I have never I think I've ever had that happen you know I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I'm sure it does but people can go to animal control and just turn their animal in so you know that would be a whole different but we do work diligently trying to educate the public and we also have a we have a food bowl for people who have a hard time feeding their animals you know that they can easily get food to help them that helps keep their animal but we we also if somebody's coming to us for food for an animal we make sure that they're altered and if they're not obviously if they don't have money for food they don't have money to get the animal for food also if somebody like Britson a litter of puppies to us and they're keeping the parent dog the expanditory that they have done so the puppies unless they have an animal today so you know and the father too they have it so actually I wanted to address your question with respect to the actual ordinance so in addition to running animals pets I'm a law professor at the UGA Drift Office on the animal offenses in the county and so in that with that how I'm actually quite familiar with the ordinances that we have locally and right now as well as this have a lot of them actually need to be overhauled we have our ordinances were the most part drafted maybe ten years ago or so when the situation was very different the many more animals would be killed at the shelter and so the focus was on just trying to get that down in any way they can themselves are an option and I think that's one thing that needs to be updated both in terms of specifying when people can't adopt and then also making an option better for the people who are actually the adopters there are some issues with that process as well there are internal guidelines that animal control has it says that they should generally not adopt to people who have a history of animal control violations and the person should be able to show on the base of the application that they have the ability to care has not historically at least been very well policed so we've seen somebody come in with a dog and surrender it and say he wants a dog with a bigger head and he really puts in an application for a different dog and walks out with that coat and so we definitely see in practice that there are the strength but this is one reason why we really need to overhaul both the formal ordinances to cover breeding adoption neglect is a community things like that enforcement level things but then also the internal guidelines and like Wayne was saying to train people on them and then hold them accountable because while people can override the guidelines they should be writing a memo explaining why in this case this person has shown that in fact it's not a problem I frankly surrendered a number of animals to the shelter not once I would say my personal animals but where somebody has nothing to do had no way to deal with an animal on a Sunday night and they give me the animal and so that was so I would be art from adopting and so that's they should have some discretion but there should be explanations of discretion absolutely thank you and building on that do you all see with the film Mr. DeClan Paul's recommendation is coming out of that also yes and just sorry Paul so what would happen is learning from our partners and listening to everyone what we need to address and then the mayor would refer that to one of two committees that five commissioners each serve one and they really that's where they get deeper dive into what the need is and what the language needs to look like the attorney works with them and that's recommended to the full commission for adoption and that's how we do ordinance changes so I fully expect the strategic plan to uncover here's some policy areas that need to be approved yes I like the urgency with regards to filling open staff positions it's been identified as a big problem the big issue with the problems that act of control I've heard that a part-time animal control officer put in her notice last week but the position has not been posted as of this afternoon I understand that part-time positions can be posted as soon as the employee gives notice who's responsible for initiating job postings and why are they delayed if you're talking about a four month timeline for things to be putting in then the shelter is already out of its own way for that sure well the shelter well animal control management and even resources are drawing responsible for posting a decision I can't speak to that I don't have personal knowledge of that but I can sort of begin to answer I will say to you that I think it offers to the main for the shelter superclosure and so hopefully that decision will be shortly as an overworked shelter is right next door they do have a veterinary clinic so they could be a model you might look at to see how they make it work and also there is training available through NACA for shelter staff in the last few years the management over there has had no interest it seems you can manage that but I think that the people that you hire should be funding available and so the requirement for continued management should be shared yes okay yeah okay I will bring my prepared questions so this is kind of like a burning question that I personally had for the last few months now so the county stated in a press release that a family outbreak that led to the needless killing of nearly an entire shelter of cats that information has since been written as false as we now know not a single cat was hidden that was killed at the shelter had been confirmed as actually having the virus so my question is and the county's August 29th press release the county quoted that staff made the decision to kill the cats and kittens will you please explain who you meant by staff were you indicating that a person in addition to the shelter administrator Michelle Perry made the call how far of a chain of command does that decision actually go well my understanding of the events was that there were two kittens that tested positive with the initial test that we used and they were euthanized and one was sent by the car this is a Lucia other cats that had come in contact with these kittens were quarantined we don't have hermetically sealed areas it's an area that's separate from the others something I've come to understand is that even if vaccinated it can virus can be so it may not be affecting itself but it could have it on the outside so this is my little understanding of this type of thing so they were quarantined I'm not sure if staff knew that a preliminary report was coming back or they were going to wait in full two weeks to get the proxy report it's my understanding that the shelter of the counter-control administrator made the decision after consulting the entire culture I believe I was told that they also talked to the medicine county folks okay so that's a lot well, I'm trying to clean that so that's what I was told and so the decision is so the department have actually not normally to I've never had to do that and I've had family in in part of which is the dog version of family I was shocked because it's because of that disease and I've never had the department that yeah, they may tell you the quarantine and I think with these two kids one of the kids and it lead to it to our back and it had a standard snap test the other and it was strongly a strong positive and it's not it's not the other kid it was vaccinated and it had a weak positive on a not great test I don't know what the name of the test is so that's where you know making that decision I'm not you know it was you know the corporate of agriculture on a regular basis too that's just not a normal thing for the I not a normal thing for the department they would they would you know try to limit the areas and quarantine what you had the quarantine but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but that was ago levels as far as that was. But if you have good stand or operating procedures and protocols, you can't prevent it, right? You're going to get, you know, you're going to get it. But at least you know where it's been contained and that you used your due diligence to make sure you didn't spread that to any other animal. And in other words, these animals were not outside in the public because that's, you can't sanitize the earth. So, you know, those are the things. And then the Department of Ag really is a great resource for us to go to, to know what to do, you know, the state bed. I mean, they've, they've been very helpful whenever I've had issues. So I don't know if that helps answer any of that, but. And you're, you know, how much, no, I guess you called us. You were mentioning before that education is important. Is there a separate budget for education in the shelter now? I don't, I don't think there's a separate budget. And when I say education and, you know, help break me, I mean, that has a lot to do with our animal patrol officers, you know, seeing something and trying to address it with owners on the spot. And that's what I mean by education, but certainly there's more awareness about it as well. Because I did say that we do need to do a general population there. How about when you take that account or you're going to adopt it. There's a lot of reasons for the things that you're having to do at any time. And I would like to say that if we're going to take the award, we're going to include a kind of education story. We actually have a big one. It's going to be a huge outreach educational program Dan. I don't know what happened to it. We are in schools every time. Part of that was continued, I think, but with respect to actually doing education of the population. So one of the things my clinic for each of you in law does is we develop an animal welfare class. And so folks who have actually had difficulty with animal control in the past have decided for something or actually have been found guilty of animal abuse. And what they do is their sentence is they participate in the class. And so we are trying to permanently educate people. And we are actually trying to track do we have fewer issues with recidivism based on the people who actually come to the class. Because our goal was to never see them again, right? That's also really our goal is to teach them enough about how to characterize animals. It's the legal end. It's the physical care of the animals. It's what we do socially. And we actually have a brief behavioral component with the basic issues we see animals coming in with the play biting and adult dogs, the jumping up things and get people to turn them in. We actually have a behavior of work with us and we videotaped it so that we can present that and demonstrate that in class as well in the hope that it will keep the animals at the home. It's a good home. Or even if they come in, who's legal health play? Who's legal skills? What are they going to do in the shelter? So we're trying that out in terms of education. The animal control officers really work with the people in the field and they do try to educate them on how to care for the animals before they just cite them. But that would be the goal if we can't get their behavior to conform to better standards is to get them in court so they can talk to the assistant county attorney who works with them and so they can talk to my students and me and we can actually provide that with their behavior. So Lisa, that's through UGA then. Yeah, it's UGA. We're on the Anthroposcar county department on it. We have the class once a month in the municipal corporate and we're actually hoping to make it open to the public generally. That's something that I'm happy to help publicize and get people in. We've talked to Mason and you don't know potentially that you're in a discount on adoption. It'll be $25 off for people who've completed this course because those people are slightly better adopters. We think ideally there will be some relationship with animal control like that too where people who've completed the course could get some instead of on the animal control and they can't have it as adopters. That's awesome. Mark, you're working it up. So just to follow up on that. I first want to say I've never tried to move forward here. So I'm very sympathetic with the fact that we are a mission here to try and solve what has been the more parent problems that are going on at the shelter animal control in general. And I thought, I really do, and I'm hopeful that this is going to be something that really does lead us to have the best animal control animal services in the state possibly to shine an example in itself. That's great as well. So I hesitated somewhat to come back to the past, but there's a couple of things I'd like to at least kind of get out of the table. And when it comes to the statement that came out before the August 29 statement, when we started talking about the shelter, the basic statement was like, hey, we've done what we've always done. But it kind of troubles them, the thing that we really are still dancing around about is the right way along to do it. So I mean, ultimately, the results weren't waited for from each of us. There was no attention to doing so. And it's not like the shelter demonstrated it that the labs were going out there. There were cats that had already vaccinated. You had medical isolation facilities that weren't properly utilized. And that was paid for by the slots 2011. No real veterinary resource was actually contacted to get an opinion on, is this what we should be doing? You have the resource of Janet at the society who basically continues to write a book on shelter management. Incredible resource just sitting there. It's not unknown to have control, not contact. Knowing all that now, and everything you've actually talked to about the stakeholders you're meeting with right now, does the county still believe that the shelter administration acted appropriately? And also to piggyback on what Sherry was saying, did that decision ever get up to David Flock? They didn't go past him. Were you aware of that at the time of what was happening? I was told when to have it. I was told there was an outbreak. I let the commissioners know about it. I don't know if David made the call or Sherry made the call. I didn't make the call. And obviously in hindsight, things could be done a lot better. And that's kind of what we're focused on while we're getting involved. Because ultimately it's my job to make sure that things are managed well. And so that's what we're going to do from here on out. And you're not going to see what you should not see in repeats like that because we're going to be focused. So just to follow under to that, some of the frustration that I've really experienced and obviously have heard enough from me already probably have gotten this kind of hint from me is that where I know that it probably felt coming upon the government to try and soft pedal the story or at least soften the message that was coming out after this all happened, the information that the public received was not genuine at best. And I'm hoping that you can commit to making sure that we get a little bit more of a frank discussion from the county going forward so that we can all be able to participate fully in trying to respond to that. We don't want to tear you down. We want to build the shelter up. Absolutely. And I appreciate your comments. And as time goes by, we learn more. And so I understand now some of the mistakes that were made and they weren't made. And we're going to manage those going forward with the advice inside transparency of our partners there shouldn't be a panel policy where there's a protocol that's something a veterinary resource has contacted consulted about it, that is documented so that it's what the lease is for. There's an explanation as to what happened and why. And that stuff needs to have to come forward. There's a decision. I think that's how I want to know that that's not going to happen again where there's an animal that tests and then the whole... If you can't see if you can't see that that series of events was just a series of bad decision making or at least a series of terrible mistakes if the county can't kind of just come out and deal to say that it's kind of like fondly trying to say he's wrong. We need you to actually just at least be like that with that. And we're never going to let that happen. That would be kind of a relief. I mean there has to be a formal apology or any sort of change. Well I would say that hindsight reveals mistakes and if the evidence that Josh and I are fully committed and involved in dedicating hours to improving it that that doesn't speak to the fact that improvement is needed. And that's... I mean we'll work it out. And I said I have a question that always has a very frank conversations and I think we're committed to make sure this is transparent as we move forward. We're doing this very seriously and very it's kind of extremely unfortunate and I forgot to this point but I think we all admit that. So again, you serve and then I'll follow up. So as we all know like last year something very similar happened to you, right? So last year Patrick Reaves was the superintendent of Michelle Carey who was the supervisor of Animal Control when the shelter was shut down by the Georgia Department of Ag or it's lack of care for the animals basically. I understand that Patrick was then shipped into a GIS analyst position within the county and Michelle was then promoted to head of the shelter. Were either of the public accountable over the deaths of the 69 cats last year and if so how and lastly how is Michelle being accountable for her actions and issues? Well, there's a personnel matter involved you're talking about people here and there's a human resources component to that that I can't speak and that's not trying to be withholding information there is some health issues involved that I can't talk about. Okay? I can assure you that there's not this acceptance of mediocrity and giving people push jobs or anything like that there were reasons why that had to happen and you just have to trust people. What had to happen? Patrick was transferred. Why would trust anybody like you said? Like the statement that he just talked about was full of falsehood. He said like the county their reputation is severely damaged from this in my eyes for certain and obviously a lot of people care about these animals and what's happened and you guys owe us the commission is taking great strides like I commend you guys for doing this in the right direction but saying you're doing it and actually doing it are two very different things and I'm honestly just fed up with it and in play. I mean we have an entire organization dedicated to this problem that is formed because of the lack of transparency by your administration and the people that are involved. Well I understand that and I get it and it's much like the stakeholders there's erosion of trust over time I'm new on the scene and you're going to have to form me a little bit of trust like I'm going to have to form you a little bit of trust and as these two ladies were in a nascent relationship moving forward all I can do is make good decisions and you see them happen over time we'll get the trust back and I hear you it is a thing about trust and I can tell you at least this I guess the connection there is that you all get to elect the commissioners and you need to make sure that you're electing commissioners that are going to make sure staff is doing these changes when the change is in place and I can tell you this commission is the mayor is committed to it we very all we see these issues and extract both my animals well one of my past actually but my pet is also a rescue man I get this I think a lot of commissioners do I mean we're committed and I've had conversations with Manuel and I believe he is also committed to understand the mistakes we're made and committing ourselves to reversing the trust of this community because especially when it comes to animal services we rely on this community so much and we volunteer and do so much work so we need y'all this has to be a partnership and I hear you on that on that breach of trust and I think that we're just trying to part of what we're doing is trying to mend that bridge that we can come back together it might take some time and I understand that that's real but I think we're all trying and I've made some recent steps to start right by managing the issues and continue to do that and I don't know how many years okay I was on the original board of directors for the last couple of years we spent seven years raising money to get that bill but during those seven years we went and visited a funding for animal shelter one that we adopted that we've done another good thing that I designed the surgery speed, and it, oh, thank you. Anyway, that's one point. The other point is, as a veterinarian, I expect that I'm required to continue to take a certain amount of credits every couple of years. And the last, maybe four or five, six years, I've noticed that the conferences that I attend, there is a whole day of animal shelter sessions. Now, that didn't used to be when I first graduated. It's becoming more, you know, it's becoming more information for people that are in shelter business, if you want to say business. And so I think that that might be a good way to get some more information about how to do things right in what we're trying to do here. There's also a magazine called Animal Sheltering that I get, and that would be another source to have it available to whoever wants it. So those are just some ideas as far as educating people that are gonna work there, volunteer there, or just to be aware as citizens here, thanks. Let's see you guys. Yeah, I mean, I wanna speak to y'all about vulnerability and that audit has really uncovered, you know, some group of issues and going out that Canada, having an outside, objective, deep dive into what actually happens, and presenting it publicly and we'll address that. I also, speaking of veterinarians in Feds and UGA, we have a world-class veterinary teaching hospital. I know I emptied out my savings account. I spend a lot of time there, I'll be back in a minute. And I know those, I'm in a place that's farming with students. I know those students have certain residency requirements and things like that. Do we have any kind of relationship and can we pursue a formal relationship with UGA? Does that really get to interest in their actual veterinary experience in our shelter? That's something that's going on now is what we're doing. And that's a good idea. Are they sitting on these meetings at all, these partnership meetings at all, anybody from that? No, no, the only personal ability to be decent. That's certainly a weak and wild thing to add there. That'd be great. I wanna go, I can speak to that for one minute. I'm a charter company, so I'm very familiar with the history there. And we used to, they used to have their shelter medicine program with UGA and Dr. Janet Martin, was attractive at that time. She really brought that students in, but since they canceled that program, I don't think you can do that in a formal way. They're starting it up again. And actually one of the things I wanna talk to Dr. Logato about the Holy Week here tonight is now that he's coming to the shelter, wants to eat a couple of rabies vaccinations and stuff, whether or not that's something he's integrated with the shelter medicine club. Anyway, I'm putting on the spot, but I'll talk to you afterwards. Yeah. But we're trying, we're trying something. And like to be my contact universe, before I go back to the question about the TNR of cats, because the vessel of the University of Florida has that huge program that they do for the whole community and the veterinary medical students also once a month or every few months, they bring 100 plus cats at those events. And that allow the best students in the community to come in to volunteer and they do spying neuters for low cost or free. And that's experienced in the veterinary medical students. The bargeers and the bargeers really need to put some kind of hardship like that in the county and they don't want to be a bird wall. They just want to do something like that. That's great. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Okay, thank you. Michael in the back, Anna. Some of y'all, if you already have one question, I'm just going to put it at the bottom of the list if people haven't yet. Okay, I have experience with providing care for abandoned animals. My family owns property in a neighborhood that 10 years ago was funded by county government of Feral Cat colony off North Chase Street. Some of y'all remember that battle at the commission. We won and lost, the funding got pulled and we've been dealing with the aftermath of that. And the five years that we've owned property in the neighborhood, it went from 46 Feral Cats to about 16 and now there's about eight. And then also, I work as a community advocate. I just happened to have been working with Stephanie Maddox, internal auditor on non-confidential affairs of her office for almost a year now. And I just like to point out, raise a couple quick points, okay? Is first of all, the audit committee has done a great job helping transform that committee and that audit and the auditors role over the past six months. They work very hard, okay? And other commissioners, including Commissioner Denson, have advocated for her powers to be restored to her office. But I do wanna point out on this vote on Tuesday, next Tuesday at City Hall, there's already significant pushback from a sitting commissioner to limit the scope of the audit if approved by the entire commission. This is not Blaine Williams' problems. This has been going on for at least 10 years and now I guess he has to deal with it but they're trying to limit the scope of the audit. On several counts, including the budgetary concerns. And I just wanna quote from the website, Athens-Clarke County website, the role of the auditor, is to conduct a continuing internal audit of the fiscal affairs and operations of every department, office and agency of the United government. So this office has been prevented from looking at budgetary concerns for a long time. So I'm asking y'all that y'all do not take Tuesday, October 1st for granted. The very last thing I'm gonna say, and thank you so much for your time. Ms. Maddox has an extensive history in medical science and medical terminology. It was related to human studies but she is gonna be able to grasp and understand what the veterinarians and what the other experts are talking about. So I'm asking y'all not to feel like that the audit is a done deal. We need y'all to speak to the commissioners and not limit the scope of the audit. You had the general question, can you say that one? Yeah, I guess it's going back to the management issue. I know I tend to be people who probably haven't had this work here working underneath the manager that showed in part part of their bad practices and decisions. Are the people that were involved in the bad decisions of last year and this year that were going through the same decisions? Are they still in charge and if they are, then how are we supposed to believe that it's really being taken care of? Because I'm saying as an employee, as someone who had to deal with that, I didn't believe that it can be taken care of until that manager was removed from their position. Well, I'm involved in oversight now. I'm not a person removed. And so everything is in plain sight. Josh Edwards is going forward. Management's office is involved, correct? So we're gonna be watching and we'll be learning and becoming educated as to what best practices are and we're gonna all touch them. The current manager of the services has now resigned, which this was under, so yeah. But were the people responsible maybe they still had position to make decisions? Was that cool for me after a lot of people? To know that someone who made a decision that bad and that consequential is still in a position of power, that position to make decisions? It really just kind of erodes. I mean, everything you're saying, it sounds great, but it includes the bud. It makes the bud be capital letter. Like is this really, it sounded good, but is it really gonna happen? Or is something gonna happen before, you know, new decisions are gonna get put into it. I just, I don't have confidence in management that has shown that multiple times if you make this decision and it's still in power or it just doesn't, it doesn't sit well. Did you talk about, I mean, the show to now on a day-to-day basis, which person is now? Oh, show of care is still super popular. I mean, I don't know why she doesn't. Well, I would just, you know, I hear you, I ask for your patience, you trust the process, I'm responsible for the management, it's not gonna do me any good to have equal and equal bad decisions going forward. And I just ask you for some time. You have to make sure it happens. Like, this happened a year ago. So I came here to share my thoughts with you. And so. So. So here I am. And all of those things I told you earlier. Yes, not in office, but I was a manager here and I helped you with this. Okay, we have, we don't have a few minutes left. We've got four more so that's gonna be the only question I think I've got people down. Do you have a question? Yeah, I have a question. So, earlier that one of the goals is to protect animals from human treatment. So I don't think a lot of people know this, but I volunteer there so to see a lot of things that happen. But staff doesn't always sedate animals before they actually utilize them. And it's not a requirement by the county to do that. If you don't know, if it's gonna be staff doesn't sedate them. And euthanasia is actually really painful, especially if you go out of Maine, which often happens because they're not properly treated. And so why is it not mandatory to use sedation if there's someone who can fix that moving forward? So maybe actually the arts are gonna be made treatment of the animals that are in our care. Well, that seems like a reasonable question. Again, I'm learning, and I would look to Lisa and Jane to help me advise us on what those best practices are. I have euthanasia for any kind of research setting or for any animal care euthanasia. You can go on the AVMA website or the Veteran Medical Association. And that is what is actually the standard for euthanasia. And it will list the species and what is actually allowed. And developing euthanasia protocols for that situation is one of the top couple priorities. I got a plus week start on the time. I'm hopeful that that is being prioritized. It's about a hundred plus ages on, yeah, I'm probably saying that, but yes. They are a fast-looking story. That's even a research setting too. They troll. I cook, you know, holy cow, Paul, C&Ns. I wouldn't have that in front of me. The standard should be that they're sedated when they're euthanized. It doesn't say that. It depends on the type of euthanasia being done. And in practice with vets, it very much depends on the confidence of the people doing to euthanasia. And so I would like Janet or another vet to be working with the shelter, given the limitations of the staff themselves and their abilities in developing a protocol that gives human. So there's a market difference between animal, like euthanasia and shelter, euthanasia. Vet does it, animal, shelter, staff does it, you know. That does it not in private clinic, and staff does it not in animal. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's what I meant. So there's a difference. But is it stamp trained, do you think? They're certified to euthanize, but that means that they can draw blood. So they're legal, I'm not, that's not the concern. They're applying the legal requirement that a vet says, yes, you're competent to draw blood, but that's different than under a pressured situation necessarily doing it well or anything like that. Euthanasia is not easy for anyone. And I think that that's a very different situation when somebody who cares for the animal is now euthanizing it for pain or for space or for whatever reason. And so I think we need a vet to be coming up with, if you have a new staff, what's your rule, there's two stick rules, for example, like if you can't hit the vein and she tries, you're done, that's one approach. So I think this is something we've talked about that I would like to see prioritized, but whether that overseeing and not necessarily minimum standard, but what would you want to see if you're correct? Excellent. So we've mentioned the former manager and I think you made a great move there. I would point out that the problem here has been a culture of mediocrity where good employees, and I can point to several people here who are excellent animal control employees who are driven out. Some of them, several of them are now directors of shelters in the surrounding area. And when things were being done that they knew were wrong, then Patrick shut them down and then David shut them down and when they went beyond that to human resources in the past, I can't speak to recent experiences, they were shut down, very forceful to carry all of this for example. So I think you might want to think about trying to implement a culture where county employees who are actually doing the real work, have some credibility with the group and don't just have this reflexive protection of management, that if you rock the vote, you're out, right? And over all of this, I think that's been a, has, and I can't speak to recent experience. We've been out of the county for a few years now, but that was a huge problem. You could not criticize in a constructive or helpful way. You couldn't make any suggestions. You couldn't volunteer. The outreach program was shut down because Patrick thought that was too much trouble for him. My wife, Eric Christy, who was a former supervisor, ran, she had a spay neuter clinic where I think it was, it's not even brought in a big RV thing. And then she was told she couldn't even use the county phone. There, she had to use her personal phone and do all of that on her own time. Well, this is ancient history. But I think it's important to have a culture throughout human resources where people can bring up legitimate complaints and they're not just shut down and stepped on and kicked out before because your people are at your best resource. I couldn't agree more and all three of you believe you need to enter out the organization more. And first, maybe some of the law reserving commissioners who've reached the board, I think that that sort of top-down control approach, at least under my administration is soft and subtle. It needs to be addressed here. As I said, Josh just spent the last couple of days talking to all the staff, actually last week too, every one of them ever just sat to hear what they're concerned for and some ideas from the board and we're going to continue that discussion. So again, I know it's maybe not much from where you guys have been, but we're moving forward and watch what we're doing. Yeah. Great. This is a great county. We've got great community. I know they're great. You just need to listen to them. All right, last question. Thank you. So I understand that there are some serious changes being made, like the shelter's no longer under the services and we no longer have data flunk. And obviously these are all really good efforts. My question is about the hiring process going forward. Like, yes, we have Josh, who's an interim person overseeing the shelter. When the county, the process for hiring the person who will be a punner in the position to what degree can stakeholders be involved? Like that could be a way to maybe restore some trust that has been destroyed. Can stakeholders be involved? And they have to say, I understand that it's a government position, it's a government hiring process, but is there any potential to include stakeholders in any way? Well, I certainly invite, you know, much like I did with police chiefs, some input on the characteristics, you know, the training and education, what you would expect in the animal services profession. And I've hired, I think, four or five people that's three and a half years up in here. We've had a lot of turnover due to retirements or, you know, we're sort of a mental market and a lot of our folks are really top notch and they go on to bigger and better things. So I make some good hires. It's in my best interest to make good hires and have a bright future in where they need to be and we're still working through that. So I'm interested to hear what y'all would like to see in the new animal services profession. Okay, we're about at the end here. First off, I want to thank Lisa and Jane and, like, for spending your evening with us like this and taking this issue so seriously and making sure that we get it right. I think all of y'all, for being here, for being attached to this issue, for advocating for it, I tell you, we're listening to you, we're concerned with you and I hope that through this process it is going to take some time but we invite you to be a part of this when you can. Because Thursday will be a big step with the vote, with the vote on the audit also. So that's at six p.m. at City Hall on Tuesday, the first. Definitely welcome to be there, it's a public convoy, but we'll be there too. So with that, thank you so much and I appreciate you guys having a great night. Thank you.