 Welcome. Thanks for joining us. We are thrilled to have you back for another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we are diving deep and we are sharing with you about how you might unlock pro bono consulting. And Karen Epstein is here with us to share that information with us. So before we dive into the conversation, Karen, we of course want to make sure that our viewers and our listeners know who is on today. So thank you to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy for having this whim of a dream that the show would last two weeks. I haven't said this in a while. We are coming up on 600 episodes and we are just I am thrilled to serve as your co-host. I'm thrilled to have these high level conversations with rock star nerds. And that's that's a compliment, Karen. So please don't be offended. But I'm Jared Ransom, your nonprofit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And I just I love nerding out with our guest with Julia on all of these topics. 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I mentioned earlier in the green room chatter that I'm still drinking my morning coffee and you can tell I still need to keep sipping on it. So Karen, we're thrilled to have you here. You know, for all of our viewers, our listeners, this is a live show. Nothing gets edited out, including these bloopers, but we are thrilled to have you. So welcome, Karen. Thank you for having me. Yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about, you know, what you do. I know we shared that you are in the New York community. But tell us a little bit about PENPAC. Sure, sure, sure. So I am a Penn alumna. I graduated 30 years ago, came to the non-profit space later in my career, probably 15 years at this point, and a couple of years ago became connected with PENPAC that was founded by a classmate a year below me. And really, she just had this great idea that she could leverage the passion and skills of Penn alumni to tackle strategic challenges for nonprofits. So we bring together a really diverse group of volunteers of alumni. I mean, all they have in common is that they're alumni of the same university, but otherwise they're really diverse group by race, age, you know, experienced profession, and we bring them together with non-profits that are also really wide ranging startups will establish well established across a lot of program areas and we work with them on customized projects across a lot of different strategic topics, fundraising, marketing, operational analysis, you name it. Now, is this kind of kind of geographically centered to the university? Or could it be anywhere in the country where you might have alums? How do you how do you plug all those fits? Right. So we're actually based in New York. We do a lot virtually that we meet with many of our clients in person. We also do projects in Philadelphia and in the Bay Area. And yet over the past couple of years, as more of our work has become virtual, we do work with some clients in certain programs that may not be based in any of those geographies. Our primary, you know, larger scale projects are typically in the cities where where we're based. So those three metro areas. How do you and the entire organization? I have a couple of people I'm going to share this with that are also alum. And this makes me want to create an alum with my university. So thank you for for doing this. You know, today's conversation I feel is a hot topic because there's so many organizations that are so very desperate for help. And, you know, as we dig into this pro bono conversation, I am I'm ready to learn. So would you, before we go into how it works, would you define exactly like what pro bono is? Sure. Well, so pro bono is really skills based volunteering. So pro bono consulting can still be really broad. I think it's really a matter of where you're sourcing it in terms of what that can mean. Right. I mean, you can have an individual who volunteers for your organization and they could do pro bono consulting or you can work through a nonprofit like us or others or consulting firms or corporations that offer it to nonprofits. So I think that's kind of how it ranges by who's providing it. Right. Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, I love that you use the phrase skilled based. So it really, I think, opens up the mind to what this looks like. So talk to us about what you're seeing. I mean, especially with Penn, you have such a wide variety of alums. What are some of these things that you're seeing and how is it working? So when we find clients, we don't necessarily commit to them to be able to provide a lot of specific expertise. I think that what our volunteer base offers in terms of their general skills is the ability to come in and do analysis and research and provide well crafted recommendations. Some projects require some more specific expertise. It could be marketing, it could be finance, it could be human resources. And so certain areas are easier for us to source. And so when we do a call for volunteers, there are certain things that we look for, depending what our projects are. We pick our clients, our projects first. And then we look to staff a team of volunteers for each one. Is that hard for you to find these skills based? Yeah, I would imagine they're graduating from Penn. They're pretty high level and they're probably super busy people. Do you want something done? You ask someone who's busy. I've heard that before, too. You're so right, Kiran. It's true. You'd be surprised. I mean, our volunteers range and some of them are very busy professionals. Some of them are either out of the workforce or taking a break from the workforce, but many of them are busy professionals. Often when they need a group meeting time, I mean, most of our project teams meet in the evening. And some of the work can be done on your own schedule, but clearly there's meetings that need to be coordinated with both the rest of the team and the client. Actually, the good news for the most part is that we don't have trouble finding. We're always looking for new volunteers. Don't get me wrong. Please reach out. And yet we for the most part have been able to find plenty of interested people, which is which is great for us, for the nonprofits. And I think it just says something about people's interest in community engagement and service these days. Have you seen that increase over the last three years? I guess, you know, the question is the increase of organizations asking for help and the number of individuals seeking that, you know, civic engagement piece. Yeah, you know, there's so many variables that it's hard to say that it's just, you know, now versus two years ago, let's say. I think it depends on the communication and outreach efforts to so who you're who you're targeting and who you're reaching. I would say that overall there is an increased interest in community and civic engagement and not just, you know, you hear about it as a generational thing, I don't actually find that that to be the case. I think we're really finding it cross generations. Yeah, that makes me happy. No, it really does. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, that does make me happy, too, is, you know, it really speaks to our community. But, you know, I'm curious for those of, you know, our viewers, listeners, watching and listening, how do we go about seeking pro bono work? Like, how does that work? What do we need to do? I'm thinking like, you know, get all of our ducks in a row. What do we need to do to prepare for asking someone for help? I think it goes back again to where you're looking for it and what you're looking for. So our typical program are these projects that run, let's say, 10 weeks each spring and fall. And if you know that you're looking for that kind of, you know, robust project where it would be helpful to have a team of different perspectives, I think it's finding the organizations that offer that kind of opportunity. And usually there is an application process. And often you need to apply for it well in advance of when the project would launch, both to prepare on your end for what the project would be and setting a team up to get ready, but also because, as I mentioned, we find our projects and scope them before we then find a team. And that takes some time on our end to source them and prepare them and train them. Again, I'll step back a little bit from just what how we do it and mention how how else you can go out and about finding pro bono consulting, whether it's a team or an individual. You know, the more you look into it, yeah, I mean, you can Google pro bono consulting. There are consulting firms that take on, there are for-profit consulting firms that largely have for-profit clients that take on nonprofits without charge the same way. You know, when some people hear pro bono, they automatically think legal, which is what the law firms do. They take on pro bono clients. You may often be connected to individuals on your board or through other networks that can offer to do a project for you. You know, I would say that falls within pro bono consulting, even though it's a really different model and you just need to be really comfortable with who's raising their hand, because when you have an organization like us or a firm, you don't have kind of that risk factor of an individual who may or may not be committed. If something happens with one of our volunteers, you know, we've already vetted them, we've trained them and we can replace them where we have the rest of the team that can step into their shoes. So it's a little less risky in that regard. Yeah. So, you know, you brought this up and I want to kind of talk or explore that a little bit more because there are some pitfalls. And I love that you said they can be replaced. I mean, talk to us. I mean, I don't even want to think about that, but share with us what that looks like for you. Well, you know, the that the slides as pitfalls are relying on volunteers, and that's again where I want to distinguish or draw the line between volunteers and pro bono consultants, because typically volunteers are unvetted and come from a range of backgrounds, not necessarily with specific skills they're bringing. And so with pro bono consultants, they know that an organization is relying on what they're bringing, you know, we and so we've gone out and filtered. We have a team that interviews everyone who applies. And so one of the biggest things that we're looking for is their bandwidth and their commitment so that they was so that when we put a team together, we know that we can deliver on the scope that we've agreed to with our clients. That makes sense. One of the questions I have for you and it might be a touchy subject, but do you ever worry and maybe not for your organization, but just kind of pro bono, pro bono in general, you know, about an organization or sorry, I should say an individual, you know, taking on intellectual property or being privy to confidential data, how do you address this and what would you recommend? Good question. Yeah, I mean, there is an agreement that, you know, certain things stay confidential. I guess when I see the range of clients and projects we take on, it's not a ton of confidential information that they would risk kind of going broad with and I'm not really sure kind of what the incentive to our network of volunteers would be. I don't know how much there is to capitalize on the same way there might be for, you know, a for profit company. Yeah, I would imagine, you know, that organizations seeking support in this way of pro bono consulting. And I love, Karen, that you mentioned the difference between a volunteer and a pro bono consultant, very different. So thank you for that. Again, another opera aha moment. But I would imagine, you know, that, you know, that organizations that are looking for help might also have that concern of making sure that they safeguard their information, their data, whatever that might be. Are there any other pitfalls that we might want to consider? I think the biggest thing is understanding if you're working through an organization, what they do to mitigate those risks, right? You know, if you go directly to, let's call it a volunteer match, like a platform like that, it's a website. And it offers a tremendous amount of value depending on what you're looking for, but you're taking on a different level of risk. If you're using it to source volunteers where you need, you know, bodies for lack of a better term, it could be a great resource. If you're looking for a team of consultants and you're looking for them to bring like a certain level of skill with their outside perspective and which with their range of perspectives, it's important to understand a little more about the organization you would be working with that provides that team. Yeah, really interesting. You know, I'm fascinated that you actually have such a structure that is so thoughtful. It seems to me that because you're starting first with a project, understanding it and then filtering in the talent, you probably have a pretty high degree of satisfaction on both sides. Is that true? Would that be a fair statement? I think that it is. And we do some evaluation of both sides gathering feedback. And so that's a process that's still kind of a work in process on our end. Yeah, I think that our our consultants, our volunteers, for the most part, are really satisfied. They love that they are providing something of unique value. They really appreciate the skills that even though they bring skills, they're gaining others. They appreciate the skills that they're gaining. They appreciate the network that they're gaining, both of their teammates and of the clients, the exposure into a different industry. Many of our clients stay with us for multiple projects. And that's not something to be taken for granted because the time commitment is pretty intense. And so we do offer kind of lower bar opportunities to stay engaged, both with clients, you know, one night events or one off opportunities, as well as ways to engage with us in more internal roles that maybe don't have the same type of obligation in any kind of intense period. Now, in the Green Room chatter, you mentioned something that I'd never heard before and I'd love to revisit it. And that was you use the term low bono. Yeah, can you share more about that with us? Yeah, and I don't know how exact a term it is, but I have come across it. I think that some individuals, you know, are looking to give back and not. And I think they do what they provide, you know, low bono, low cost consulting, below market consulting, they do it for a few reasons, both because, you know, they're looking to take it to for some compensation. There's also the idea of it's important to have a client have skin in the game. So that they're more committed when there is some sort of investment they're making. The other thing that I'll mention, and it's true for PEN PAC and some other organizations that provide pro bono consulting for some of our programs, this is true. Sometimes there is a contribution that's given to the organization for all that they do to provide the staffing and the infrastructure and the quality control standards that that does not go to the consultants who are volunteering their time. But so sometimes there's a little, you know, people see a disconnect, pro bono is free, and sometimes the volunteers are providing their services for free. Again, sometimes there is a fee to the organization, usually pretty de minimis. I'm so glad that you brought that back up, because low bono is not a word that I hear often, but if it's not the Webster Dictionary, it might be after this episode. I know I just love that. So thanks for describing. Let's talk about because we don't have too much time left, Karen, but let's talk about how we might cultivate these consultant volunteers. And I kind of feel like consultant volunteers shouldn't even be in the same conversation anymore, but, you know, because you schooled us on that, which I love, but how might we, you know, truly cultivate these relationships? Well, it's interesting because when I think about how we cultivate our volunteers that are consultants, it's almost a lot of it. A lot of the same lessons we've learned applies to broader volunteer engagement and how other nonprofits may want to cultivate their volunteers, whether or not they are consultants, right? So one of the things that I mentioned is that we offered like a range of opportunities and entry points because some people may not be able to commit to 10 weeks to five hours a week over that period. And they may want to find a way to get their, you know, to dip their toe in. They may want to find ways to continue to engage when they don't have the bandwidth. So I'd say that one thing to keep your own volunteers active is find opportunities, a range of opportunities that work for them. I think it's also important a second thing to learn in terms of volunteer engagements, whether they're consultants or otherwise, is to support your volunteers, make sure it's rewarding, provide training and development and resources for them so they feel like they're getting the support that they need to be successful. That is a great point and thank you for sharing that. Would you go into that a little deeper? Like how how can we support them? I know you gave us a couple of examples, but what are the trends that volunteers are looking for right now? Like what are they seeking by way of support? Well, with skilled volunteering, pro bono consulting in particular, I think that they are often, again, as I said, they bring skills, but they want to develop others, so maybe they're really good at research and analysis, but they haven't developed their presentation or leadership skills. So we offer best practices. We offer training. We offer, you know, we bring you on a team that has team leaders. So you're learning from that. And we have a pipeline where you can then progress into those roles. So I think that that training and development piece is key. Yeah, I really appreciate that. One of the things I hear often is from board members and board development is, you know, oh, we need a finance person. So let's seek this person out from the financial industry. Well, the reality is maybe that person with their skilled, you know, asset, maybe they want to dip their toe into marketing and do something, something a little different. So thanks for shining light on that. We often find that and it's an interesting balance for us because I truly believe that we have two sets of beneficiaries, that it's really our nonprofit clients as well as our volunteers. And so while our clients may be looking for finance expertise, as you mentioned, we may have people with finance skills that are looking to get onto a marketing project, and so we have to balance that. And that's really interesting because, you know what? I would not have thought of that. I would have thought that it's like, you know, stick to the knitting and if they come, if they're a CPA and they're just going to be doing that. And that's fascinating. I'm a CPA and you don't want to put me on an accounting project. Oh, gosh. I do because, you know, I do think regardless of age, because you mentioned PINPAC in particular really has a diverse age base. And I love that. You know, and it really does speak to the fact that all of us, many of us, I should say, are really lifelong learners and looking to gain additional skill sets, it might be for a next chapter in life and what that might be. So I just I think it's really important for us to hear that. I would just add to that on that point. It's not only that we're looking to be, you know, lifelong learnings absolutely. But what you can learn when you bring together a cross-generational team is really unbelievable. And when we do get feedback, we often find that that's the kind of thing that people point to. OK, that's what we need you to come back to talk to us about is the cross generational team, how that works, how it's shifting. So again, we would love to have you back. I I know I'm confident that many of our viewers and listeners are going, you know, OK, I need to Google this, I need to figure out PINPAC. I want to submit an opportunity. How would we go about submitting a project, a potential project to your group, Karen? Yeah, so for our for our projects, our longer term ones that run in the fall and the spring, we accept project, we accept applications twice a year. And so for the spring, they will open up in maybe October. I have to check the date. But it's all on our website. And not only can people go to their web, our website, they can absolutely email me to Karen at PINPAC dot org. And yeah, I I have to apologize every day for my name. That's what it is. And that's what you know, I think this is great. Check out PINPAC dot org. It's just fascinating. And I agree with you, Jared. I think this could be one of those things that so many different organizations look at starting their own type of structure to to reach back into their communities. It's it's just a wonderful, wonderful idea. And really an interesting way to bring a lot of support and labor and knowledge to our nonprofits. Just fascinating. Karen, I am a big fan of Pro Bono broadly and happy to try and connect people with other organizations, whether they're not alumni of the university. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. Check out PINPAC again dot org. Karen, this has just been fabulous. And and I think it just re reenergizes my my spirit when I think there are people out there that are well compensated who worked hard again across the trajectory of their careers and yet they want to get back to their communities. It's awesome. It's just awesome. I agree. I agree with you. I feel very fortunate to be able to work with with individuals who are so willing and generous with their time. Yeah, it's just awesome. Well, you've been a delight to be on again. I'm Julia Patrick with the American Non-profit Academy been joined today by my trusty sidekick, Jared Ransom. You're going to get to enjoy her by herself for a couple of days. I'll be rejoining you in a couple of days as well. We want to make sure that we thank all of our presenting sponsors without them, we would not have people on like Karen discussing such wonderful things. Blumerang, American Non-profit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University, Non-profit Nerd, Your Part-Time Controller, Non-profit Thought Leader, and Stuffing Boutique. These are the folks that are joining with us day in and day out. Jared mentioned this, but I think Jared in is it next week or the week after we will hit our 600 episode? The week after, I believe it's I believe it's like the first week of August, so amazing. Yeah, we've been we've been hyping it up, you know, and I know. We have been. I think we started hyping it up and we didn't really know the date. But we did. Congratulations. Great to have you. Well, I think we're being part of the journey truly. We could not do this without our amazing guest and leaders like yourself. So, you know, our presenting sponsors, thank you, thank you, thank you to all of our guests, our viewers and our listeners. Truly, all of you are part of this team that keep us going towards this milestone. So, Julia, you know, I know we cannot do that alone. So thanks to all of you. Yeah, it's really amazing. You know, as we end every episode, we'd like to remind ourselves, our viewers and our listeners to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.