 Good morning, and welcome to another episode of Condo Insider. My name is Jane Sugimura, and I'm your host. And this is a show for people who live in condos or work or have anything to do with condominiums. And my guest today is Rellene Tenno, and she's the program director for Hawaii Council of Association of Apartment Owners, and thank you for coming to be on our show today. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. And today's topic, and this is a topic that creates a lot of angst amongst our constituents, which are associations and people who live in condominiums, and that's pets and condos. And there are people who would say, well, you know, you can't call them pets because they are comfort animals, service animals, and that's what we're going to be discussing today. You know, why is this big issue with pets and condos? And the Hawaii Council is going to have a seminar on November 14th, and this is one of the things that are going to be discussed. Yes, it is, pets and service animals. And why don't you just tell me in a nutshell what seems to be the controversy? Why is this a big deal? Well, you know, you have these condos that were built originally like in the 70s or 80s, and they were built as no-pet buildings. But as time has gone on, you have some people that are, well, I have a dog, I want my dog here. And full disclosure, Jane, I have dogs, so, I mean, and I'm still, you know, flying with what I need to do, but, I mean, some people just don't get it, it's a no-pet building. And there's reasons why it's a no-pet building, was originally done as a no-pet building. And you know, some people are, want it on the board or current owners want it to remain as a no-pet building. And then you can amend your bylaws, and some buildings like my building, we amended our bylaws maybe 20 years ago to do, have no-pets. And so that was by 67% of the owners at that time. And so we have a, our building has a no-pets policy. And so that's, you know, if you have buildings who have no-pet policies, why is there this issue about having pets and condos? So, you know, it's people that are renting, and it's the property managers or the realtors, you know, they really want it, they have a duty to get it rented for the investor owner. So, they try to get just essentially anybody, you know, so. So it's a matter of educating our owners. Right, yeah. You know, it's a no-pet building, it's in the docks. Even when you purchase it, you're obligated as a buyer to look over those documents. Even the realtor is obligated to look over those documents of the building that she's selling. And that's a fiduciary duty to disclose that information to her buyer. And you know, there are reasons why people, why, you know, you have a no-pets building, because some people, when they decide to buy a unit in a condominium or rent a unit in a condominium, I mean, they ask questions and some people on purpose look for buildings that have no-pets. Correct. Right? Because they might have allergies. You have people who are afraid of dogs or don't want to live in a building where you have animals making noises, barking and mowing and whatnot. And so they choose to live in a building with no-pets. So it's kind of irritating to them. And you know, I know I sit on a board and, you know, we get these requests for reasonable accommodations, we'll get to later. And you know, it's like, it's very irritating. It's like, we are a no-pets building. Why are we allowing pets in our building? It's very irritating. Yeah. Yeah. And I agree. And I think there are enough buildings in town, right, that are, I mean, you can go to Humane Society, they give you a list of pet-friendly buildings, and you can go on the internet. And that's one of the things that are listed as one of the benefits of living in that particular building. It'll say, we're pet-friendly. Correct. Correct. So people with pets, if they want to live in a condominium, they're, I mean, it's not like they can't find buildings that are pet-friendly. Correct. And so they should respect the fact that some buildings don't want pets and, you know, look, you know, don't look kindly on people who have pets and come into their building. And that's what, you know, I'm hearing from, you know, some people, you know, who ask for reasonable accommodations, and they think that, oh, well, you know, my neighbors hates me, you know, or my neighbor gives me dirty looks. And it's like, well, you know, we are no-pets building. And so, you know, that's, I think, to be expected because, you know, the question to me is, why are we allowing these animals in the building? So why are we allowing the animals in the building? You know, you have the people that have comfort animals or assistance animals or therapy animals. You know. Well, let's talk about the ones that are okay. Okay. The service animals. The service animals. Right? Everybody agrees that under federal and state law, you can have a service animal. Correct. Because they're specially trained. Yes. And, you know, we, I want to, you know, make the statement now, there is no federal or Hawaii state registry or certification for service animals. Correct. So people who go out on the internet and they buy these certificates and the jackets with the logos that say service animals, that stuff is bogus and we all know it. And for people who come and try to do that, I mean, we tell them very nicely that there is no registry, there is no certification for a service animal in the state of Hawaii. Thank you very much. What does your animal do? What task does he perform? What task does he perform? A perform. Right. Yeah. Which is about the only question you can ask if the disability is not obvious. Correct. Right? Correct. You cannot ask them about their disability at all. Right. And usually, you know, with the service animals, I mean, they have a certain demeanor. They are trained. So they're not going to bark or make noise. They're not aggressive. And they're not going to pee in the lobby and things like that. And so that kind of alleviates some of the concerns that people would have. But then you get this whole other category of comfort animals, therapy animals, and what is it? So where do these terms come from? You know, I don't know. I think it was someone just started it and it just kind of took off, you know, or some people say I have a dog because he comforts me at night, you know, but they're not real service dogs. But they are recognized. Well, the reason why service animals are allowed in condominiums is because of a federal law called Fair Housing, right? Correct. Fair Housing basically says that you cannot discriminate in housing for persons with disabilities. And if a disabled person needs a service animal to assist them in their daily functions, then you as the association cannot bar that resident from having a service animal. And this is very serious. And so I think everybody recognizes that the service animal is the exception to the no pets rule in a condominium. I think what people are having problems with is the other categories. The comfort, the therapy, the dogs, and the assistance animals, because the definitions surrounding them are so vague. And like in our building, we gave somebody a citation, our manager gave somebody a citation for having a pet. And they acknowledged it was their pet. And then the next thing we know, we get a request for reasonable accommodation. Now the animal has somehow magically become a comfort animal. Because a true service dog or a pony, they're really supposed to even accompany you everywhere. They're with you 24-7. So if you go to work, the dog is supposed to go with you as well. So a comfort animal, people don't bring their animals into the workplace. Normally it's not allowed. Employers don't allow animals into the workplace. So if you leave it at home, it's not really a true comfort or service dog, you know? So it's a pet. It's a pet. And there are ways. And one of the, I guess, one of the challenges that associations face is there's an agency in Hawaii called the Civil Rights Commission. And the Civil Rights Commission is tasked in enforcing the fair housing rules. One of them is discrimination in housing for disabled persons. And disabled persons, under the commission's definition, is much broader than the fair housing. Right? Because then the Civil Rights Commission allows for comfort animals. Which one? I believe it's opposite. The fair housing is more broader than the civil rights under the Department of Justice. Okay. Yeah. Fair housing is a little bit more broader. Okay. Whereas the Department of Justice Civil Rights section, it specifically talks about the service dog and having it, having your request for reasonable accommodation done by an authorized medical provider. Not just a physician, not an eye doctor. Or, in our case, a doctor who lives in Lincoln, Nebraska, or a report that's maybe five years old. Right. You know, as a board, we get these letters. And under fair housing and the Civil Rights Commission oversight, we are required to allow an animal, a resident to have an animal, if this licensed professional writes and says, basically, and I'm paraphrasing, the thing is, you know, Jane Doe, who lives in your building, is my patient or my client. And this person has a mental or a physical disability because they don't have to describe or name the disability under the fair housing. They have a disability and this animal would relieve some of the symptoms of the disability. And we are requesting a reasonable accommodation to allow Jane Doe to have her assistance animal. That's the type of letter we get. And when we get that letter, if it's from a licensed professional, and if it's within 90 days, and if they're in Hawaii, we basically have to say, well, okay, you know, and, you know, we approve that accommodation. But in our building, and I know a lot of buildings who do this, when we send the letter to the resident saying, we've approved your reasonable accommodation, we put in there because it's not a service animal, okay, we put in there. But we have rules about how you have to take care of your dog or your cat. And if you don't follow those rules and your animal becomes a nuisance, and in some, some bylaws or some house rules with there are even like thresholds, like if you get two complaints or three complaints on the same issue, in other words, we get three complaints about barking, the nuisance, three complaints where the dog is running loose, not on a leash. Right? So then it becomes a nuisance and you will have to get rid of it. You can't do that with a service animal. We can do it with a comfort animal or an assistance animal. The service animal, they're trained, they're specifically trained, and I believe it takes like a year to train a true service animal. And normally they're always, they're known and they know to always be leashed. Right. And, and you know, to me, I've been around, you know, service animals and, and there's, they have a certain demeanor. Yeah. They, they are very docile, they're usually, you know, when, when, when the person who has them, they're either, you know, when, when they're lying down and, you know, they're under the table or under the chair, and they're very quiet. You wouldn't even know that they're around. And but, you know, they, they, they act on commands, they are not aggressive. And you know, so, so these are features that, you know, kind of are okay, you know. And so, you know, people, you know, people who, who don't like animals or might be afraid of animals, they're not afraid of a service animal because a service animal doesn't, you know, show. It's not jumpy. It's just calm. It just really stays put. Right. And, and, and so I don't think the, the concern that is raised by people who live in condos is with service animals. It's this other, the other category. And we'll, we'll be talking more about that other category, you know, when we come back, but we're going to take a one minute break now and then we'll come back and discuss the other category of animals. Okay. Hi, I'm Rusty Komori, host of Beyond the Lines. I was the head coach for the Punahou Boys varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we're fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championship. This show is based on my book, which is also titled Beyond the Lines, and it's about leadership, creating a superior culture of excellence, achieving and sustaining success, and finding greatness. If you're a student, parent, sports or business person, and want to improve your life and the lives of people around you, tune in and join me on Mondays at 11 a.m. as we go beyond the lines on Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha. Aloha, my name is Duration. You are watching Think Tech Hawaii. I will be hosting a show here every other Wednesday at 1 p.m., and we will be talking to a lot of experts and guests around sustainability, social justice, the future here in Hawaii, progressive politics, and a whole lot more. So please tune in, and thank you for watching Think Tech Hawaii. Okay. Thank you for joining us after the break. We're talking to Raylene Tenno. She's the program director for Hawaii Council of Association of Apartment Owners, and we're talking about pets and condos. And the council's having a lunch and seminar, right? November 14th. Correct. At the Hale Koa. At the Hale Koa, and so we're going to be having, who's going to be talking about this topic? We have Dennis Perez, who's a psychologist at Triple Hospital, and also assisting him will be Attorney David Major. And they were involved in a lawsuit recently, right? Correct. It was with the condo and civil rights commission. So what was the issue? Look, the tenant or resident had requested for reasonable accommodation, and they had like several dogs, more than one dog. They approved one. But the second one, when the association also, in their thing, did their due diligence discovered some of the documents were fraudulent. Oh. They weren't, I believe the doctor, they called the doctor, and the doctor had never seen the patient. I believe that was one of the issues with that. Okay. But for the listening audience, this is, and we're talking to people who might be concerned if, you know, people who, residents, you know, come in with animals that are not service animals. Correct. Because that's where the problem seems to be. And you know, this is an issue that the board needs to deal with, with their association general counsel, because it involves a lot of legal issues. And so if you're upset or you think, well, geez, you know, maybe we should call the doctor, wrote the letter and ask him a bunch of questions. But before you make that call to the doctor, make sure you call your association general counsel to make sure you're asking the right questions. Right. Because you could get into trouble. Yep. You can get into hippovirulations. Because he's not supposed to disclose. Right. And you know, you as a layperson don't know, you know, what kind of information a medical professional should be sharing. And you know, medical information regarding a patient is considered private. And under state and federal law, I mean, the medical professional cannot discuss it. And with the letters requesting a reasonable accommodation, they're not allowed or they should not talk about what the disability is that they're requesting a reasonable accommodation for, right? Right. And so, you know, this is an area that's kind of fraught with a lot of pitfalls. And so, you know, it's not something that somebody who, you know, has no legal training, you know, can navigate without an attorney, but they really should. Right. So, you have to keep in tune with your attorney on this journey when it comes to animals and what your condo is going to do about this animal, growing animal situation. Because the Civil Rights Commission, I mean, that's the boogeyman in the room, right? Yes. And the Civil Rights Commission is, you know, something, it's a Hawaii agency. And you know, one of their tasks is to enforce the fair housing rules. And, you know, one of the things that they do is they do investigations. Correct. They hold hearings. And they issue huge fines. Yeah. I mean, you can get it for a fine for $25,000. And I can remember being in a situation like that with our building and we turned it over to our council. And our council basically said, just pay it. And it's like, excuse me. But, you know, we don't think that it's right. You know, we want to fight it. And they said, well, if you fight it, then you're going to do it without the insurance company. And so we ended up settling with the Civil Rights Commission. But, you know, it's hard, you know, because they're kind of like the bully in the room. And even though, you know, we thought we didn't, you know, violate their housing, there was this issue. And so rather than go to hearing, we settled. You know, the Civil Rights Commission is known for issuing huge fines. Yep. They're like worse than God. They're worse than a judge. I mean, you just don't fight them. Right. And they can be very obnoxious. But you know, and they offer, and one of the things, too, is once they find that you go through settlement, they make you go through training, you know. That's right. You were pretty stupid before, otherwise we would never have fined you. And therefore, as part of the settlement, your people have to be trained so that you don't make these mistakes again. And it includes even the managing agent had to be included in that training. Right. And so, you know, and I know with the Civil, the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission, they do all-day training. Yes. Yes. It's, yeah. For compliance. Right. It's arduous. Right. Anyway, so this is why, you know, people, you know, if you're upset about the pets and condos, I mean, you want to make sure that your board discusses all the issues with association general counsel and that you have a general counsel guiding you. First of all, you make sure your general counsel understands fair housing. Correct. Right. Correct. It means, and I, it's unbelievable that in this day and age that there might be attorneys who represent condominiums that don't know that fair housing applies to condominiums. And the Comparable Law is ADA, which is the Americans for Disabilities Act. The disability act. Right. That applies to commercial buildings. So the ADA for residential buildings is fair housing. And so that tells you that, you know, you have to have, allow certain repairs to be made to accommodate, you know, disabled people, and you can't discriminate, you know, based on protected class. Right. There's all of these rules. And it shows very, very complicated. And the fact that you might be living in a building that is a no pets building but somehow has all these animals running around, you know, you figure, wait a minute, why is the board doing this? Why can't the board stop it? Well, it's a little bit difficult. Yeah. It's very complicated and you really, you really walk that fine line in trying to enforce it a lot of times. And what we were talking about, too, before the show, we were talking about maybe prospective legislation. Right. Yes. And this is something that the White Council would probably be in support of. And one thing is to probably set some guidelines as to who can write the letters asking for reasonable accommodation because right now it's a whole, there's really no guidelines. And like I was telling you, you know, we denied a letter from a dentist, right? We denied a letter from a doctor in Lincoln, Nebraska. And we denied a letter, I think, that was five years old. And you know, so, you know, I guess, you know, for our, my association, it's got to be current within the last 90 days, the person's got to be a licensed professional in Hawaii and they have to be treating the resident. Correct. They have to say in the letter, this is my client, this is my patient. And this patient has a disability. And I mean, we don't care what the disability is, we don't want to know, but they have to say that there's a disability and that this animal is going to alleviate symptoms of the disability and they sign it. And I guess the issue is there's concern that some of the licensed professionals are maybe fudging when they write these letters. Yes, they are. Some of them are fraudulently writing these letters to assist. And some of them may not even be a professional, someone that they know and is just trying to help somebody out and is writing a letter, but it's still not an appropriate type of letter to submit for someone. And in some cases, the social workers can, and I, you know, until a couple of months ago, I didn't even know that they licensed social workers, but I was chastised and I know now that in Hawaii we have licensed social workers. Licensed clinical social workers. Right. And when I saw one, I said, wait a minute, you know, this can't be, you know, I called my friend who is a social worker and they said, of course, we're licensed. And anyway, yes, so, you know, you can get a letter from a licensed social worker. Typically, that person should know you or have treated you at some point in time, you know, not just someone that you know, that's an LCSW, you know, it has to be someone that has treated you or is your case manager, you know, but even still I would question whether they're really qualified because it comes under a mental health category. Right. And I think a lot of people, especially the people who grumble, who live in a no pets building and then they see all these animals coming in and when they're told, oh, we have to give them a reasonable accommodation because they came with this letter. And it's like, oh, but you know, they lied, it's fraud, they probably never went to the doctor, they just paid the doctor $50 to write that letter. They don't have, you know, they don't have a mental or physical condition where they need the animal. Right. And this is all bogus. And sometimes it is. I mean, I had someone that, I mean, she needed a dog because a dog would tell her when she had an asthma attack. And I'm like, no, that really isn't realistic. Yeah. But you know, you know, I guess, you know, so that's why we're kind of looking at legislation, right? It is. To give us guidelines as to, because for those of us who sit on boards and we get these letters, it's like, oh my God, you know, it's like border code. Here's another one. Here's another one. And then you have to figure out if the person is real, if they're actually licensed, if they're currently licensed. And a good thing about Hawaii is you can go online. Right. The DCCA and you can find out who's licensed and who's not licensed. But you know, so that takes time. And you know, it's like, why should we be checking? And you know, so you know, we should be, so there should be like a law that says who can write the request for reasonable accommodations and say what they have to put down. And if they're licensed, we need to have their license number. Correct. The guidelines on who can, who cannot, what it should contain, they're one of their clients or one of their patients should be the number ones on the list. Same rules as, like I was saying earlier, when you get a handicap pass, they're searching criteria in order to pass, to get a handicap pass. So same thing with a service animal, should be the same type of guidelines. And so what would happen with this legislation? What would there be sanctions for people who issue these letters and they're not authorized? I, I really think it is because they're, they're licensed professionals. So they, I mean, just like an attorney, if they do wrong, they can end up losing their license. So there's ethical standards. There's ethical standards. Against their license. Yeah. Yeah. Same principle. Same thing. So basically, if you write the letter, then you have to certify and attest to the fact that the person you're writing the letter for is in fact your patient and not somebody who just walked in the door and handed you $50 to write this letter. Correct. Correct. Because that's what everybody thinks. And, you know, we've run out of time. And so for those of you who want to follow this topic, come to our seminar on November 14th at the Halecoa, because we're going to have some professional psychologists, licensed psychologists, you know, they are talking about what can we do to address these issues that people have about pets and condos. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you, Raylene, for being with us. Thank you for having me. And please join us next week for another episode of Condo Insider. Thank you.