 Thanks very much for the previous session, and I'm really sorry Max that you weren't here to be able to join us for the whole day, but we're really, really delighted that you are here, virtually, coming in. So this panel is titled Pollution is Colonialism, which the title is taken from Max de Boron's book, and there are two speakers here, but given the kind of zoom constraints, et cetera, I'm going to introduce them one by one. And Max and Alice have both been really sort of foundational to the way I think about this topic. And today we're going to, they're going to help us rethink what pollution is, pointing to its deep entanglements to settler colonialism, but also exploring anti-colonial and also feminist methods to approach the question of pollution and toxicity. So the format is a little bit different from what you've seen earlier this morning. Max is going to speak for 10 minutes, and then I will introduce Alice who's going to speak for 10 minutes. And then after that, they're going to talk to each other. We will see how all of this works out in this hybrid format. And then we will all talk to them. So questions from the audience are welcome, and then we'll open the floor as well to everybody in the room. So to introduce Dr. Max de Boron, they develop and promote anti-colonial research methods in a wide array of disciplines and spaces. Their lab, CLEAR, is an interdisciplinary plastic pollution laboratory whose methods foreground humility and good land relations. De Boron has influenced national policy on plastics and indigenous research, invented technologies and protocols for community monitoring of plastics, and as the author of pollution is colonialism, which came out with Duke University Press in 2021. It's also co-author of discard studies, Wasting Systems and Power from MIT Press 2022. Dr. de Boron is an associate professor in geography and served as the inaugural associate vice president of indigenous research at Memorial University from 2018 to 2020. So over to you Max. Tangy, Kea, Max de Boron, Duchenne Cauchon, Lac-le-Biches-de-Chien, Niquet Métinéchon. As said, my name is Dr. Max de Boron. I am Mitchiff, a Red River Métis and also a White Passing Mitchiff and also a settler. And I'm originally from Treaty 6 territory, at least called Lac-le-Biches in northern Alberta in Canada. But I now live in Newfoundland and Labrador, which is a British colony, was a British colony and yeah, was and kind of still is a British colony. And so a lot of the work I'm going to be talking about comes from here. So it may not universalize or it might generalize really unevenly, but it is very much the case for Canada. So the context for my 10 minute talk is a recent surge or resurgence of pro-capitalism or colonial apology research and books. This is a tweet from LJ, a Choctaw scholar that says, for those who've been keeping track of the new pro-colonial and publications that many of us have been discussing on Twitter, let me offer some other books and this really great mug zero days without colonial fuckery. So I'm not going to talk about the book specifically, I'm not going to cite them. But in general, they analyze colonialism and its relationships, for instance, to capitalism or material flows or they talk about how settler governments sometimes align with indigenous people and post-contact wars. All of them fall under the banner of academic colonial settler colonial studies, meaning they're not disciplinaryly egregious, but none of them deal with genocide and the reorientation of colonialism in this scenario to mean something other than genocide is an alibi, a political alibi where colonialism isn't quite so bad anymore. This is a long term counter situation, Tiffany King and Joanne Barker have been talking about this for a long time, and I'm going to sort of orient it by doing a long quote from Tiffany King's The Black Shoals. Quote, on the heels of the popularity of feminist texts by women of color and native women, the scholarship of white scholars in white settler states began to gain traction and currency as a counter current. This discipline called settler colonial studies and acts a discursive shift that privileges the theoretical and ethical engagement with settler settlement, settler's experience and settler colonial relations. Together, this work starts to displace, or I lost my place by changing the slide, together this works to displace conversations about genocide and slavery, even when they're sprinkled in it's not a meaningful conversation. So the field of white settler colonial studies has yet to truly reckon with the ways that it erases indigenous knowledge and forms of indigenous politics and decolonization, including a focus on genocide that require the end of the US and Canadian and other settler nation states as well as the end of whiteness and versions of the human that sustain them. So when theories of colonialism don't deal with genocide. They don't deal with indigenous thought it allows certain types of theorizations to happen like the founders of settler colonial studies, being able to say things like land back is reverse colonialism and reverse oppression on settlers. Right, so those are the stakes, among others of these sorts of things. So this is the context of this context of dominant academic discussions of colonialism which are not the dominant discussions in in social movements by the way this is an academic context, and it's the context that I'm talking out of today. So what I'm calling for and what many others have called for is that any engagement with colonialism or justice oriented sort of dealing with plastics and pollution and climate change through a colonial lens also must deal with genocide. And when I say genocide I mean the cessation and arrest of indigenous life, indigenous ways of life, indigenous liveliness indigenous flourishing and living bodies. It's not a metaphor for something else. And we know that there are many, many ways that genocide happens in relation to plastics and climate change, especially when you look at the entire lifecycle that starts with extraction and then processing and so on. So when you talk about two works that does a really good job of looking at plastics and colonialism with genocide as an analytic. The first and I still think the best is this report from the native sexual native youth sexual health network. It's not an academic text it's a it's a it's a NGO report non governmental organization report. They talk about how a bunch of different colonial violence has happened together so one of the one of the key examples that I draw on a lot when I think about these things is when oil and gas extraction happen. There are very often what are called man camps nearby. These transient yet semi permanent living areas working areas labor areas that are almost exclusively male, and that grow up and sustain extraction activities. And in these areas, there is a very high instance of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and gender based violence in general. This is a man camps within a range of a lot of man camps, and it, yeah, sort of remakes the culture of the place. So this is just one example of genocide the cessation of life and extraction, right and it sort of goes beyond this narrow thinking that like pollution and plastics are are things as opposed to like a whole set of relations that involve things. The other person I turn to a lot is and Murphy, Murphy is is an academic, and they run the environmental data justice lab, and they talk about how well one of their projects, which is called the land and the refinery is about how the oil and gas into petrochemicals that get used as plasticizers or into plastics, as well as become the raw feedstocks for plastics which I know Alice mon knows more of the growing stats around how much oil and gas gets moved into plastics, looking forward that. But this includes endocrine disrupting chemicals and other things that also interrupt indigenous life lands and sovereignty bodies. The land and the refinery is one of Murphy's collaborative projects. And it focuses on actually Heather Davis had a slide photo of this, the chemical refineries and it's called chemical Valley in Canada which is in Ontario near the Great Lakes and it's next to the Amjewan First Nation Reservation, as well as on Amjewan First Nation lands, and about 40% of Canada's petrochemicals are processed there, which is a lot. And so they lead an indigenous led study of one of the world's oldest refineries that are there with for and in collaboration with the Amjewan First Nation community. One of the things they work on is called the pollution reporter app. And they use it to report flares spills and other pollution events in the in the chemical Valley area. It's mostly intended. The other thing it does is, you can report events and spills and flares and these sorts of things. It then talks about it links you to the different chemicals that are being both produced spilled etc and produced, and then the health effects of those different chemicals so even though it's primarily intended for use by Amjewan First Nation, and the others who live there, anyone can use the app to sort of look at these connections. So I bring up these two examples as to really prototypical ways that indigenous led thinking about plastics are taking shape. So I was recently commissioned to write a report about indigenous participation in plastic pollution governance and management in by a third party for the plastics treaty that's, that's ongoing, and spoiler the indigenous led version of participation is based in sovereignty and rights. But what's become really clear is that there's a massive and notable difference between how non indigenous and indigenous folks are talking about and their and theorizing and therefore acting towards plastic pollution. I'm not going to get into details here the study is ongoing. I'm like halfway through it. But these the examples here highlight two of 10 ish trends. One is that understanding the source of plastics as a network of colonial industry and settler governance as a colonial system, where genocide is both an accomplishment and the goal of this kind of pollution extraction production that position etc. So the examples I talked about really exemplify that and the other is this wholism and understanding harms, genocide gender based violence, bodily autonomy, all this sort of stuff, and look but also looking at harms across the entire network of plastic so not just plastics after they've been created as a consumer and disposal issue but extraction, and of course the links to climate change. There's a different work that isn't indigenous does this as well and that's actually why I'm quite excited to see Alice Ma talk because they also do a good job of this, but the way things co here in the stakes of things in the orientation tend to be quite different indigenous led work. So if you happen and the call that I'm talking about to reorient discussions and justice based interventions around colonialism, the call to to foreground genocide particular in that is not my call I'm echoing what other people are saying. It is also my call, I am echoing what other people are saying. So if you're an indigenous person who's written on plastics or produce something sightable broadly defined around plastics and you want to make sure you're in this giant study and lit review for the plastics supporting together, please reach out. We might already have it but yeah, we always appreciate more. Thank you very much for the time and I very much look forward to chatting with Dr. Ma. Thank you so much Max. I have many things to say but I will try to contain myself and not say them until later and really just introduce Dr. Alice Ma, who is professor of sociology at the University of Warwick. Her research focuses on environmental justice, toxic colonialism, corporate power and just transformations, which are the subjects of the two most recent books, Petrochemical Planet, multi-scaler battles of industrial transformation which is forthcoming from Duke University Press and Plastic Unlimited, how corporations are fueling the ecological crisis and what we can do about it, polity from 2022. She's the author of Industrial Ruination, Community and Place, which was the winner of the 2013 British Sociological Association, Philip Abrams Memorial Prize, as well as Port Cities and Global Legacies and with Tom Davies, toxic truths, environmental justice and citizen science in a post-truth age. So we've already covered a lot of keywords and points just in the titles of Alice's books and so I will hand over and then we'll come back for a discussion soon. Thank you very much for the introduction Shia and I'm absolutely delighted and honoured to be in conversation with Dr. Max Liberon, I'm such a huge fan of their work. So yeah, my name is Alice Ma, I come from Northern British Columbia on the unceded land of the Wetsuiton peoples. I'm a mixed race Chinese-Canadian heritage and I've lived in the UK for the past 18 years and coming from Coventry today, which is a motor city foundation of the motor car and yeah, the place where I'm from in Northern British Columbia, the Wetsuiton struggles are also a key side of struggle around gas pipeline, which are also a feedstock for plastics. I think those kinds of ways in which I guess on a personal level I'm located in relation to plastics supply chains is a lesson of inheritance following Heather Davies' work and entanglements. So what I'm going to talk about in these short minutes is really actually an engagement with Max's amazing work, Pollution is Colonialism and how that resonates with some of my work. And what I really see as the book, if you haven't read it, I would absolutely recommend it. The lessons that this book really brings in terms of lessons about humility and learning. I've learned so much about what I probably shouldn't have done in terms of research and also about forgiveness in the sense that there's this lovely idea in the book as well about how the things you write or the things you do, the research, you might not write the same thing later, so in some ways I think this idea that learning about being anti-colonial is a journey and I would certainly say just in the same way from an entanglement perspective we're entangled in a plastics world, we're also entangled in colonialism and to extricate from that is deeply challenging on very many levels as has already been discussed in relation to hierarchy. So one of the concepts which I think is just such a gift and so actually it goes beyond I think the specific of settler colonialism and is in a way more expansive to colonialism in its many varieties that Max has written about. It's also in pollution of colonialism but was written earlier in Discard Studies article and this sort of encapsulates an idea of what colonialism is. The assumed entitlement to use land as a sink no matter where it is is rooted in colonialism. And I think if you think about that about plastics that could have high to power relations effectively in any kind of dispossessed environment where people haven't given consent to have their lands polluted, indigenous peoples and people of colour, working class people and the animals and trees within that land. And so this is a really powerful idea and they go on to argue that it's not just about pollution at the production level or pollution at the waste level, but it's also about the entitlement to go off and produce these solutions that are themselves toxic in the context of corporations which I've looked at in some of my research. So I wanted to, because this is a conversation, I wanted to talk just very briefly about three points of interconnection and maybe opening out to kind of questions with Max. This graph here by the way is sort of a mapping or a corporate network analysis of major corporations in the global petrochemical industry, which is the subject of research that I've been doing with a team of researchers and activists in the US, China and Europe where these are the networks of the larger ones or the networks of all the major kind of mainly Western or European and North American companies and the ones that are sort of in silos are ones in emerging economies. So thinking about the wider scale of structures. So entanglement scale and resistance very briefly talking about each. I mean I've already mentioned this and many have already talked about this idea of entanglement in relation to plastics and this is very much in show at this exhibition. This kind of what I want to pose is this dilemma of entanglement. It is based this idea of the colonial system and the idea of genocide. It's really very apt and provocative in terms of thinking about the underlying structures of this. But I think the dilemma here is we live in this world in which we are entangled and then how can you disentangle what are the steps while recognizing that you can't fully disentangle in a way because that is part of the inheritance and that's part of that living together. And so this here is just one illustration part of the research that we've done is around corporate ethnography and studying up in a way looking at the major players who are petrochemical producers and this is their kind of chain of different kinds of chemicals that then produce the plastics and what they produce at the top. And this is kind of narrative of how they're so essential. And these are the sticky notes that I put all over the place about what what is really toxic or problematic or related to genocide and violence and war. As I was writing the book that is coming out on the petrochemical planet. Oops. I went back. Going too fast. Another inspiring theme from Max Lieberman's work together with Josh Lipowski in Discard Studies is this very interesting way of thinking about scale as relationships that matter within a situated context. And I think this is really important they say in terms of where you can make interventions because effectively and other scholars have also made similar arguments such as Anna Lohan Singh talking about how it's very difficult for not everything can effectively scale in a smooth way. There are scalar mismatches as Max and Josh Lipowski say and that that that you know that that has implications for thinking about like we can't just take a grassroots movement against petrochemical pollution in one area and then translate it to all the other places. Obviously every place has their own context and every specificity and set of problems and you know relations in terms of the labor the acuteness of the toxicity and so on. And so in the research that we've done there are really tremendous differences as well as similarities between the different contexts. And I thought I'd just point out that just down the down the road not far from here. I mean obviously Aberdeen is a big oil and gas area but I mean these aren't these aren't only happening in places of settler colonialism. These injustices ingrained in Scotland which is a former BP kind of now owned by Enius petrochemical plant. There are really you know terrible petrochemical toxicity pollution and noise pollution deprivation. But then you also might think well BP is an imperial kind of company and the workers were once part of a prosperous industry that that you know is now sort of prosperous but not bringing any benefits to the community. So it's just a you know complicate in some ways the you know the diversity of the different areas. And yeah I mean I guess one thing that our research highlight is it is you know there are actually basically thousands of petrochemical facilities producing very noxious petrochemical products that go into plastics around the world. And they have a pattern of concentration in close proximity to indigenous communities to black communities ethnic minority communities low income communities that play out in very very different ways. And we you know look at that not going to every place but but in collaboration with activists and secondary research. So just as an opening up kind of question I wanted to ask Max to reflect on the resonances the capacities for resistance how how you know we can think through different scales of action from the small to the larger scale and what lessons can be taken through that through that humility that learning from one another these anti-colonial practices when you have you know these harms that and the this colonial system which seems really you know overwhelming and challenging and I want to you know be optimistic in thinking some days anyway of the resonance and the solidarity between different movements the capacity to you know think about where there might be points of commonality in those struggles. I think Max if you wanted to respond to Alice's sort of opening kind of broader questions. Yeah, but resistance and resistance and scale like the question of work and activism. Yeah, no problem. So yeah so I think one of the things I appreciate about your work in particular Alice is that it does look at a scale where things move and matter right so the scale of industry and not the scale of individual action. You don't worry about so much the ethic and morals of sort of small jurisdiction things like your household or something like that instead you look at these, you know, the drivers in the movers of the problem, as opposed to the drivers in the movements of like slow resistance and slow activism all of which are important crucial, necessary, definitely ongoing, but without a really clear understanding of how the industry actually works and how it's, you know, lots of people like oh our industry is colonial okay great how like what do you mean exactly like exactly because unless I have a really good picture of the problem intervening becomes very difficult. And so this movement so I think as we mostly know different scales have different jurisdictional spaces so like me as an individual person who happens to be a scientist have a lab, I have one jurisdiction that jurisdiction is expanded by being an university that jurisdiction is expanded by being a Métis nation affiliate and expanded again by being part of larger social movements and being part of plastic treaty which is like so trying to figure out alliances and spaces of jurisdictions that scale and move towards the sort of issues that you identify in your work Alice I think is super important. And then also that there's actually very different types of solidarity. There's the like get the fuck out of my way, like we're busy we got stuff going on indigenous nations and their and our, their and our sovereignty are working in various ways so get out of the way and help us get other people out of our way. We're actually working together and collaborating and partnership there's resource sharing there's capacity sharing as opposed to capacity building which is rude. There's go learn in your own corner and study up and deal with your bullshit. We got a different set of bullshit right so so all of these are different modes and modes of solidarity and resistance that scale differently. It's, I think important to understand that there's a great variety of different types of ally ship and solidarity. Yeah, and not mistaking like one kind as the best kind and the only kind or something like that. Yeah, that's very good. We're going to answer your question. Yeah, I know that it's really really helpful and and yeah very I mean, yeah amazing ideas. Can I ask you a turn tack a little and ask you another question on the basis of what what you just presented. I think you can do whatever you want. Yeah, so I mean I'm really interested in in in the the moves that you're making. I mean, you know, because you know you write about how it's a journey and in research. And you're focusing here on on on harms, you know, on whole is a holistic understanding of harms. And but elsewhere you've been a little bit cautious about the idea of harms, following Eve Tuck's work on, you know, not doing damage centered research and and being really attentive to the idea that for example that plastics shouldn't only be conceived of as as harm and of course they shouldn't. But have you, you know shifted your thinking on that. Or if not then then how does that relate. Do you mean the plastics is Kim stuff. Yeah, and well yeah there's that and then there's also you know your your engagement with Eve Tuck's work on damage, not doing damage centered research and and you know by implication harm is part of that in a way. So those of you who don't know Eve Tuck's work on suspending damage. There's this idea that for justice, it's a Western idea. This idea that for justice to occur you must prove harm. So it's, it's a, yeah, just sort of legal idea of justice. But the problem with that idea of justice is that you have to spend a lot of time proving that indigenous people are more killable more polluted more in deficit more etc. And what that does is essentialize us as killable in deficit. And, and there's no guarantee that justice happens after that's been demonstrated. And so yes I'm constantly trying to move away from damage centered narratives. The problem happens. So the the call to deal with genocide is about isn't about to be like let's study more about how indigenous people are genocided with plastics that I think that's given like we know it's not like we don't need more research on that what we need is when actions are proposed, do they also deal with genocide, if not, then they aren't scaling to the actual problems they're not actually anti colonial they're not actually dealing with colonialism they're dealing with other things, which might be finding heavily, but the not dealing with genocide ends up being an alibi for for not dealing with colonialism for for being like oh well we did some good we did some change we address some things but you know by the way they were still colonial or they still accomplish genocide but just in different and new and exciting ways. So, and then the other conversation about are there ways to think of plastics that are harm based. Yes, but not in academia and not in public spaces like this, because they also tend to an academia especially work as an alibi. So, does that. That's really helpful to hear the nuance around that kind of thinking and also absolutely critical work in terms of thinking of foregrounding genocide and also very alarming to hear about these books that are circulating. I've stepped off of Twitter recently because it's too too much from a, you know, bandwidth perspective so it was insulated from this development but it sounds very worrying. Yeah, it's very intense it's very pronounced maybe in the last month maybe six or seven books from like Princeton University Press like this sort of stuff like colonialism wasn't that bad. So, colonialism best understood is like a governance structure colonialism is best understood as material flows colonialism is best understood as economics and we're like what is happening and it's all these old like dudes and some of them not so low. Right, so it's, it's a movement to counter movement. It sucks. I wanted to mention about scale jurisdiction and change is released to art and science and research. So I used to be professional artists I've been in a thing and had an art practice and like show the New York and stuff and this is one of my artsy type images. But I found that I left art and now pretty much a full time laboratory based scientists, because it's scaled better. So different, different, I'm scaled better for my goals, which was trying to address uneven distribution of harm and benefits around pollution. And so I'm not saying like wholesale art doesn't scale and science does. I'm saying in the ways that I needed it to scale science at a better job in this context so it's something to think about as well as like how and where and to what degree do relations get formed that have more or less capacity or more or less. So I think we need to change at different scales using different techniques. I think this is related to your first question, Alice. And I forgot to mention it then. No, I just wanted to ask something that relates and really to ask both of you as well and we've had this morning we talked with others talk about transmission and I think one of the things I was thinking about in terms of transmission and inheritance so much of you know we're both different stuff and we're complicit in a lot of the way we consume, particularly because we don't really have a choice. Sometimes we do have a choice but all of these questions are often very not quantifiable. So how do you measure your complicity? How do you measure transmission, slow violence and things like that. And I think this relates also to scale and jurisdiction in some sense because I think Max you mentioned what was it called the pollution reporter. And so I'm curious about particular kinds of organizations, outfits, specific projects including maybe you can talk about clear or things that you're doing in your work or things that you're coming across in your work. And whether you wanted to talk about how what the relationship is between quantifiability and kind of like these longer term processes that you're we're talking about. That question covered a lot of ground. So maybe I'll start a little bit with the like what I would call guilt this complicity issue and I'll be very quick because I don't give a shit about it. The scale is, I mean, ethics and morals are important, but they don't scale. Right. So like you should definitely do what is true and right and good in your individual thing with your own inheritance, etc. But as sort of being part of various indigenous movements and and government sort of things, they don't show up in our work because they frankly don't matter to our work, right. They matter to other things to certain types of good and right and true, but they aren't mattering so much to the social movements and governance and sovereignty. That's good news in a lot of ways. And so you still need your ethics and roles to then scale up well right so I'm not saying ignore those I'm saying when it comes to something like so you think of something like Nick Shapiro's work we is like enumeration and quantification is just like those busyness treadmill where like you try and make legible sense to the settler state and rather all this sort of stuff and it's just this treadmill. So as a scientist, I count plastics as like my entire gig. And I count them over time but it's for indigenous governments it's for the not see the government that I do my work for, and they use it to govern their land claim area, which is nicely large, although also too small. So, so they need quantification or quantification is a very important way among many is traditional knowledge qualitative knowledge, youth knowledge elders knowledge, place based knowledge, you know all this sort of stuff but quantification helps in concrete and very specific and curtailed ways. And they tell me what to count when I count them and they tell me how to divide my counts and they tell me how to categorize my counts which is probably the most active a space part of counting. They tell me right we do participatory statistics together so people without statistical backgrounds, figure the sort of stuff out together through participatory stats. And I think there's quantitative quantitative methods, like guy is brand audit so guy is I think one of the GIA all caps, an international zero waste plastic focused movement that's very good and very strong, and everyone should join and or donate stuff. And they have things like the, the brand audit where scientific like the scientific way of counting doesn't care about brands, and they're like no no you care about brands because it's an accountability metric it's like saying it's Coca Cola or Nestle's or whatever plastic that's polluting things does more work than their 578 plastics. Right so so finding quantification in and of itself isn't, I think inherently a political, there's like indigenous enumeration all these sorts of things that exist pre contact, but doing things like framing things like okay how do we think about enumeration in the context of genocide, how do we think about enumeration in the context of needs of a social movement how do we do the more important questions, not like counting good or bad, or like, you know that sort of thing, which I know you weren't saying but sometimes people do say that. Yeah, so actually I come at this from quite a different perspective which is, you know, actually what may be interested in a way in terms of the petrochemical industry is actually very heated debates and controversies over how you can actually measure toxic effect. And that has been basically one of the main tools of environmental justice movements in the US where they kind of emerged but also globally trading tools as well in terms of citizen monitoring and using that as evidence to make cases for environmental injustice and in that way I guess that could be critiqued by Avetuck because in a way one of the problems with that type of data is that it doesn't typically or always or it only exceptionally translates to a victory in terms of say a relocation or compensation. If you look in those areas in Sarnia and in Louisiana they have been for many decades poisoned by these petrochemical facilities and regardless of all the wonderful citizen science and activist work that has happened they still remain poisoned to this day and this is the case in, you know, all around the world. There's for every, I mean I don't want to be pessimistic, but if you account for all of these places where this has happened it's an uphill battle and so it's a paradox in a way communities are forced into using science and then data to make these claims and then, you know, if they don't then they suffer even more and so that's one of the things that I discuss in terms of what you do about enduring toxic injustice and enduring, you know, genocide that's produced and perpetrated by, you know, governments as well as by corporations and yeah, not to mention all the deceit and denial kinds of ways in which they, you know, actively dismiss the science and so on. So data, yeah, absolutely quantification can, you know, make amazing ground and it does in different spaces and I think marine plastic pollution and especially the place where Max is doing the work is an inspiring example. But also some of your work is really great in this in terms of your work on the qualitative and quantitative enumeration of production. Right, so if we know that X amount gets produced we know about this much percent gets leaked we can we don't need to count it you just sort of know it's there or we're looking at yeah the different impulses between behind industry enumeration of their work and that's what the this app is for is it compare what what the data justice lab does in the back door so the the folks using this app use it to sort of do slow resistance in terms of like, why am I feeling like this when do I go outside when do I eat this, when do I call my grandma to make sure she's okay what's what do we think the reasons might be, but in the back of this app. There's also all these people using colonial data against colonialism, which is to compare their results with the mandatory self reported incidents of spills and flares to then go to a regulation. There are other things and fight the production of new sites, because the things aren't being met already right so there's. They look different ways are like certain not new sites new built new processing plants in these locations or that sort of thing so it is tangly. But yeah I think your work is is definitely hard. It's useful to this sort of work, which I think is the highest compliment I came up to reason. Thank you. We're out of time already but just because it you know it's such a privilege to have both of you here in the room with us virtually and otherwise if anybody has questions I think we have time like just five minutes for questions if there any sort of burning questions. And if not we you know it also because these things take time to really filter and so on. So we are we are meant to have lunch at 1255 so potentially we could close for lunch and then through the rest of the day if you do come back with questions we can continue the conversation in different modes if that's all right. Yes. Okay great. So a really big thank you to Max and Alice for joining us.