 This is the OGM check-in call on Thursday, June 23rd, 2022. Very nice to see everybody. Marshall, yay, glad you can join today. Fabulous. Marshall is a neighbor here in Portland and a fellow traveler if I can reappropriate that term. Yeah. I forgot what that used to mean. That used to mean you remember the Communist Party and Joe McCarthy had a little list with your name on it and he was coming after you and you were going to be doxxed and outed and ostracized and made impossible to work. And now it's a good thing. Kind of, yeah. And while we can all appreciate the phrase, from each according to their ability to each according to their need, the authoritarianism that came with that paradigm is arguably unwelcome. Exactly. One small thing in my brain, one of the effects of the blacklist just because we're doing this thing. One of the effects of the blacklist was that some of the writers became children's book authors. They were sort of pushed out so that I've got that under the quirky advantages of prohibitions and prosecutions. Filmmakers helped to launch the Industrial Revolution filmmakers moved to Hollywood to avoid Edison's patent persecution. AT&T was not allowed to commercialize UNIX. Therefore, we have the internet. And blacklisted authors wrote children's books. So here's victims. Here's the Hollywood blacklist with Trumbo, which is a good film, et cetera, et cetera. So on the unintended consequence of that put in a placeholder for cancel culture. So what's one of the unintended benefits of cancel culture. We don't know yet. I only need I need I need the insights I'm hoping from your lips to God's years that there's a silver lining or something I was just reading this morning the CEO of SD louder got after a long career in promoting diversity and black black talent and so forth. And I just got fired off of one tweet, which is maybe right or maybe not and it sounds like walking on eggshells to me. Yeah, yeah, not good. So the upside, if you need to list upside is accountability, right. I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure that's quickly I just got here nice to meet y'all. I'm not so sure that's accountability Marshall. What is cancel culture I mean you, that's the Republicans are using it the other way to I mean. So, you know the Billy Bragg article in the Guardian a couple years ago, like in defense of so called cancel culture is is a particularly notable resource. I don't have the one can you put a link on the chat. I've got only the royalty scam under him. Yeah, I saw you had David bone there too but David bone probably would never met your main out of met Krishna Murthy if he hadn't been. McCarthy hadn't gone after him. That's interesting yeah I like that that's a good. That's a good angle because bone had to go to England to escape being blacklisted and not being able to work. Yep, yep. Well there's just, there's just so many angles, I mean, I think the list of positive things that happened as a result of really terrible negative things I would not be alive were not for World War two so there we go. It's like the old tale of the old farmer and the white horse, which we've heard mentioned on a jam calls Oh I don't know. Yeah, a couple of times. The farmer the horse. So today is a check in format, we just go around and I look at the little piles on my screen and then every now and then somebody will drop something in the conversation that's like whoa wait a minute and what we might spend 20 minutes or half hour on that one thing which is okay. We don't always make it around the room in fact we seldom make it all the way through the check in. But that's the way we roll. So today, Scott nice to see you, although I'm not actually seeing you yet but nice to have you on the call. And Hank, yay. Look, there's, there's, there's the Scott himself. Did you all see that that Ohio State University has trademarked the word the, because it's the Ohio State. Yeah. Yeah, I that that's my alma mater. So we're, I'm long steeped in in that. In that question of a little value proposition. If it attracts attention, I mean is that the does like why would you, why would you know that unless it attracts attention in some way right. Only because it made axios this morning that's the only reason I've ever. It's, it's an odd little triviality and I don't think it's ever served any significant purchase other than to, you know, we're, we're the, the, the, yes. It doesn't want to be that but now nobody else can be that the anything apparently because it's been trade. No, no, the Netherlands give me a break. They've no longer the Netherlands. Now they've got to just be Netherlands because they has basically the word. It's just going to be Hague. No, good point. Good point. The Philippines. Sorry. You do about the who. Oh, it's going to be who and then we're going to have all these who's on first kind of jokes about Jerry's Jerry stick this in the brain under what's wrong with the patent office. I have over protecting IP is a huge, huge nexus. Yeah, yeah. So, so let's go. Let's let's trot through our, our frame. Trying to figure out who do who who do we miss last week I forget because I don't remember who was on the tail of distribution last week. But let's go. Carl Pete Stacy, how about that. Actually I'll defer for. I will put you later in the queue how about that Carl. Let's go. Pete Stacy clubs. Thanks Jay hello everybody. I wanted to mention something that Jerry and I have been talking about for a couple weeks and we thought it would be a good, good thing to do is a little side project work group thing. Let me share my screen to. We wanted to. The name we kind of came up with this for that this concept is distributed accounting of value flows and we, we've made the observation that there are a few systems coordinate disco co op co make re open collective that help you in the context of a community help you kind of track and and track I guess value flows. And I don't, we, we tried to explain why we thought tracking value flows would be a good thing. I'm not sure that we've, we've unlocked that but but we wanted to look at these different systems and and kind of make an assessment of them. So, so I guess we proposed that I will make a. So, our, the, our intention is to have a first meeting maybe an hour long to kind of talk about distributed accounting of value flows and why that might be a good thing and then also how to evaluate some of them and then maybe break up do some homework and then come back together for another hour, hour long call something like that. So I'll post a crowdfit to the chat and also to the GM town square channel and and we'll get going. Hopefully we'll meet sometime next week. I feel great question what's a value flow. I think that's TBD based on our on our talks together. Obviously value flow is like something like I'll help you paint the fence. If you give me a couple glasses of lemonade war. The videos and one that one that is a burr under my saddle Jerry that's st by the way folks for making sure that calls get posted and stuff like that it's a pain in the rear I do that for another couple calls and it's just a pain. Anyway, these are value exchange flows not value flows value flows would be like, you know, greenhouse would be a would be a value flow hugs would be a value flow but if you want to trade something on them that's a different value, it puts value into market. I'm not only mean the exchange. Yeah. You do this. That was one example that were exchanges. We'd be more interested in tracking flows and maybe sinks and I don't know whatever but, but anyway. And I guess, especially probably part of our, it's a good observation go and part of our intuition that this is a useful thing is flows is probably a good thing to track, not just exchanges. Yeah. Scott. Yeah, that that's a really interesting exchange there and I'm curious how one or either of you would, would address me putting something out there hoping that I'm going to get something back and not sure what it is. And then getting something back and being kind of surprised, but also confirmed that, oh, well I did this thing. So, so while I, I do agree with you Gil that that exchange seems more like, okay yeah value exchange. But what I'm wondering is when it's a non specific exchange in the sense that I'm expecting to get something back. I don't know what that's going to be. And it's sort of positive intent like, oh, I'm going to throw this out there and I know and trust that somehow that's going to come back and I'm curious how that fits in that definition. I think we want to, that's something that I, well, definitely something we want to like account for or think of or whatever. So, I wouldn't, I would, I would actually extend that a little bit. I'm going to put energy into the system, and I'm not going to worry too much. I'm not going to expect that I'm going to get something back, even, right, and then maybe I get something back. Maybe I, maybe I get more back, maybe, maybe I don't ever all of those kinds of things are, I think worth thinking through and tracking seems like almost over one of the risks that Jerry and I wrote down really quick as soon as you start tracking things and as soon as you especially when you start clapping things to tokens or money or something like that, you, you take a lot of the energy and love out of the whole situation right so that's, is a, there's a caution big caution flag for me there but, but at the same time, you know, and I think about it. I wonder maybe a few of you I tried to find it. We've got a list of you know coordinate disco co op etc etc. One of the one of the experiments I know of back in the day back. 20 years ago, something like that, pure a meteor of eBay fame, set up a really cool social network. And, and a lot of it was just, it was, you know, not unlike OGM a social network of people doing good stuff, talking together on this cool platform that that pure created. And, by the way, there was also a way that you could, you know, not surprising for the person who came up with eBay. There's a way I forget exactly what it even was but you could rank rank and rate stuff, you know, you got so many coins or tokens or or stars or whatever for posting things and people would give you, you know, some kind of in game currency essentially. That was all like noise to most of the participants they thought they were in a social network doing good stuff like OGM. At some point, the the curtain kind of pairs a lovely person by the way so I don't mean any aspersions here but that in the course of things there was a missed expectation. The curtain kind of got drawn back and pairs like oh thanks for participating participating in my experiment of you know in game social currency. Everyone's like in game. This is my life what the hell were you you know, I wasn't playing a game dude you know this is not cool. So, I think that used to be called a meteor network that's also the name of his charitable foundation so anything you search on a meteor network now has got a bunch of good works that a meteor and meteor network is doing. Anyway, I also wanted to recall that because it was a really early example of, you know, we're doing this all with good intent and oh there's a game underneath and oh it's not fun anymore for anybody, nobody was happy about that. Pete could explanation of that kill you in one sec. And I'll just add that I was sort of one of the early people into that network and then what would happen was the number of points other people had given you would show up in parentheses after your name wherever you went so wherever your handle was. There was a little parentheses with a number and that tiny thing was a real turn off for me so I basically stopped going in there and had other stuff to do but I wasn't. I wasn't interested in being in a community where my rating, even if it was like oh Jerry's great like points points points. I wasn't interested in being there when that was so explicit and it was just a design decision. It was really just a little simple design decision that was a big turn off for me, but but it did kind of blow up in their faces. Okay, and you step back. Excellent, please. Yeah, so I asked two different questions and I want to distinguish them. My first was purely informational what what are you meaning by value flows because it wasn't clear to me. And I, you know, I suspected the word could mean many different things and wanted to get some clarification on it. Pete the first example that you gave was one of an exchange circumstance. And that's and that triggered the second question, which is basically about. As an interpretation rather than a question. It struck me as a really interesting example of how captured we are by the frame of capitalism and markets as the basis of all human behavior and if we know we've been reading when grow and and and Graber, who really challenged that as a fundamental of human affairs but we even here even in this group even in this conversation, it's sort of a default assumption. I want to question that and invite the conversation about value flows to, to note that open a much broader conversation about value flows and then see the market and exchange phenomenon is one aspect of that, you know, where it's useful. So my only agree. The reason I would like quickly go in a quick explanation of something tell me about value flows. Not not because I think they're not that I think markets are the best thing. But in conversations with folks. That's the one where people go oh I get it. I learned to talk about value flows in as a market exchange kind of thing just because otherwise you have to have a long conversation about oh, I can put value into a system and never expect something back or, or we have a, we have a. I was trying to grab a good example out of Donna everything and I'm going to fail but but anyway you know there's a bunch of different ways cultures work. And gifts go around the system. And it's not, you know, it's not a you give me this, you give me this and I'll give you that thing. I totally agree. Thanks. Thanks for that bookmark. And just a couple of couple of more points in that Marshall before you move on Gil. You know, I'm on the same thing not moving on. Okay, keep going finish that up. Yeah, I just want to note Marshall's comment about you know mapping energy flows and she gone or an acupuncture. I mean my acupuncturist looks at the flows she's not doing any kind of exchange thing around them she's doing balancing and other interventions so there's that P tier question about how to talk to people about this. Did a workshop years ago with the great power to autumn of energy systems modeling fame, not enough fame I think, and it was remarkable. Pedagogical experience because every, it was a very diverse group multidisciplinary group of academics and business people and so forth and everybody every time somebody asked him a question. He would immediately ask them who they were where they work what they did what their training was and it started it first felt kind of offensive and condescending. But what it was that he was calibrating his answer to their language and their framework. And so, you know, what you're doing is you know you're responding appropriately to some folks it didn't land right for me. And so listening to the language that someone is listening to you in may be very helpful, because what you're grabbing a very complex tiger by the tail here. And I want to encourage you to hold the doors open not let them reduce too quickly. And I just wanted to come back to and say that I'm going to disagree with your opening premise a moment ago that we're immediately taking the framing of capitalism. I think you're talking into a group that's trying to figure out how to puzzle on the big, the bigger not. Well, but you didn't introduce your question that way at all you introduced it in a way that being my little radar go. And so like, like, I think being terrible for this group is how how might we best tackle the big questions here because like grace has been opening conversations with us about like what's a world without money look like and those are all great and interesting questions and now we have software that can model kind of anything. And I think we're pretty conscious of the ways in which money poisons relationship and trust and other sorts of things. And so I think this is a huge Pandora's box of issues and I would love to figure out how to how to pick this this issue apart in some interesting systematic way, how to leave artifacts online in the big fungus that represent our insights about this process and how to generalize the process so that because a piece of this process is, hey, should OGM and meta and everybody else be using one of these platforms I mean that the question starts with, hey should we move on to a platform so that we can track flows of energy value goodness whatever. And so there's also I think there's a pattern in here to to extract and make visible and maybe somebody else has already done this about how to do those comparisons really well. For sure. And look, I love this group and I love that this investigation is going on I don't didn't mean in any way to diss it my first question was in fact curious. But when the first example came up as a market example, my little radar guys going. Totally understand. I got so that's it. Mr. Margaret, please jump in. If I may go in the dawn of everything perspective here markets are as old as the first formation of people living together and splitting their labor. So how do you pay the blacksmith. So he can buy food. And in exchange for his labors as a blacksmith. So they had to be an exchange of values in in ways that allowed the trading of goods and services. And on top of that came ever more complex systems of monetary valuations and so on and so on and those have gotten us into trouble it's not the basic exchange of goods and services that needs to have some structure to it. Mr. Kirk Patrick you put an interesting comment in the chat and then I'd like to go to Doug and then sorry, Doug Carmichael and then Doug Breitbart. But Marshall if you want to jump in and talk about the countering samples on dawn of everything. Yeah, so I was just typing into the chat falling immediately after the previous thing a broader category that encapsulates exchange and markets. So I was just talking about pursuing a pursuit of sustenance that I know I'm collaborating with contemporary global indigenous organization called cultural survival that I was surprised to hear talk about money as as quickly as they did when I spoke of a collaborative partnership, but who quickly reframed that as as acquisition pursuit of sustenance, you know for for for family and loved ones. Two critiques dawn of everything that that that come to my mind or first doing a programmatic search of thousands of contemporary indigenous people on Twitter and publishing on the web. I was surprised as I read the book to find zero discussions of dawn of everything by contemporary indigenous people. And it was only after getting a little creative with my search queries that I found Estes. This is first name I can't remember author of the book, our past is your future. Really interesting book, being very snarky, making some snarky references to treating contemporary indigenous people as an afterthought and and Graeber and his co author, essentially exploiting that. So having a having an inequitable relationship with agency and contemporary indigenous communities. The second critique was, I was quite taken aback that the work of Maria Gumbudas was a footnote, a tiny footnote in that book, and upon searching on YouTube found an amazing hour long video produced by Starhawk narrated by Dukakis what's a can't remember the Olympia Olympia Dukakis discussing the groundbreaking work of the Lithuanian American anthropologist Maria Gumbudas unearthing and interpreting really, I think, in a compelling way. There was a logical pre history around a matriarchal European lineage in a way that that was at first welcomed with great accolades and then subsequently marginalized and sure seem like it warranted more than than the footnote I thought that it got in dawn of everything. So I'm just going to go back to Maria Gumbudas. I've forgotten she was in here and need to go back and learn about it and there's the crew gone hypothesis I think that's part of what she's talking about. Sorry. Whoop whoop team goddess worship. Doug be Pete. I think we could have a really fruitful conversation about what capitalism is by having a separate conversation at some point in the future. About what capitalism is. Yeah. I think we have enough historical evidence to make some really critical points. So, for example, the capitalism begins with the birth of new cattle in early cultures, and that surplus broke the existing meaning of what was whose and became a problem. The word capital of course comes from cap which is head which goes back to a new head of cattle. And it's an amazing thing. I mean if you say about capital and it's simply the surplus is produced by society that unfortunately ends up being owned by some of the people in that society and not all of them. And that's the modern conundrum. But I think we could really make some progress. And there's a lot of really good. There's a rich trove of stuff there worldwide. Doug be. Yeah, I, as is my sort of center of gravity to go to like fundamental ingredients. And so the, the inquiry of value flows and value representations and capitalism and all of that. And there's sort of an underlying intrinsic question of what is value. And how are we defining whether we're defining value as in service to contribution to the collective the whole, or whether we're defining value as a noun versus a contribution. Just throwing in two cents for backing up maybe to the underlying question of, you know, what have we can what what have we attached the value rubric to from a meaning standpoint, and more importantly going forward what might we want to attach the rubric of value to going forward and service to doing it differently. And I mentioned that this topic is like a Pandora's box that unpacks into kind of everything. Yeah, I might have said that but I like totally agree Doug and, and I think what we what we might find is that there's little pieces of this that have to spawn out and come back and say hey here's a here's a summary of capitalism here's a summary of value and here's how they we think they fit, or maybe we just drag this out and do it in one sequence I don't know but I think that that we're trying to start this this sequence of conversations Pete, back to you in the booth. Thanks Jay. I wanted to thank Marshall, thank you Marshall for your, your two critiques of Donna everything. I tried to get my wife, or I asked my wife if she was interested in enjoying the book club she got about a chapter and a half into the book and she's she, she threw it down and, and was angry at me for a couple days afterwards, because it's written from a man's point of and the women are our butt footnotes in it and, and she's like Pete dude. It says dawn of everything here right there in the title, and I'm not in this book and you know what that asked. She was royally upset and I had a really hard time defending that because it's totally true. Having said that, and in conversations later, my wife has left the book far behind it's like I'm not gonna have anything to do with it which I totally respect that decision. We have still found the book to be practical and useful and interesting and valuable, even, even despite its, its flaws, you know, so it's not a perfect thing but it's a very valuable thing, and there is some. There is a later in the book, there's some good talk about women in the systems of society. It's not, not just men. So, so thanks Marshall, there's another big critique which is not just we are committed, computer says missing but all women are missing kind of. And it's still a good book. Pete that was just your first checking item did you have a couple other things you wanted to check in with. No, I'm good for today. Thank you. Thank you. And last check on my queue, which looks like Stacy Klaus Scott. Wow, so that's a lot to absorb and I, it was hard because I was so conscious that I was next up in the queue. What I came here with was some of the things that were happening in the email thread. And I know that I know gil you had put one of them in which was the comparison of social media and a cult. And then there was something else that was put in and I hadn't even had a chance to read the threads but I did put a quote that Daniel to VC, is that how you say his last name. And he said, one can be a showman, even a crook and occasional liar and still have a correct and in depth understanding of a context, but no many of us are way too limited mentally to accept shades of gray, and prefer to depict our enemies and absolute and he went on to say how that's going to kill us. And that that really stood out for me because that's something that we can all do something about individually in our lives. And in the chart that Gil put in, they talked about leaving social media. And I'm a person I go down with the ship. And I have no intention of leaving something if there's any hope of making it better. Now if I can't make it better, or if a person can't make it better than I think they should leave. But I think there's something to be said in this idea of, not only do we have to learn to see shades of gray, but particularly when our enemies have thoughts that we would otherwise embrace and we're pushing them away. And kind of related but not there was, it's something separate. There's a series of by Wynton Marsalis at Harvard music as a metaphor, highly, highly, highly recommend. And with that I'm complete. So the term that Adam Grant uses complexification, which is a nice way of unpacking the places where you and someone who disagrees with you might find agreement. So, instead of saying that some issue is large and binary, rather than sort of uncomplexifying and unpacking the issue and then discovering that there's a bunch of places where like, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, in this corner we're completely of like mind. It's over here that we have a very different opinion and and we don't slow conversations down enough to do that. We don't have a standing memory to remember we did that and not go back over and over again to the superficial level of the binary conversations and arguments. We're being fanned into overheating and staying at the top level and keep going at that level. So it makes it all hard to come down and do that, that subtle work of picking through the issues go ahead Stacy. Yeah, I'm speaking even more to the extremes, because I'm talking about people, especially on social media like one of the things that in the chart, you know, Gil talked about is, you know, the way they mislead things you know these memes come at us. I've seen people here, including myself in the past, do the same thing. So we have to hold ourselves accountable. I have to watch the way I word something, you know, so yeah, it's more than just what's obvious. It's, it's even, you know, it's, it's, it's, I've been attacked so many times for entertaining the possibility that somebody I don't like has something worthwhile to say. Thanks. And close Scott Marshall. Yeah, that was a very fair statement Stacy, it's, it's, I mean, it's so hard to, to move beyond our reflexive context, context here. So as you know, I'm I have a one track mind focused on food and agriculture. And I really appreciate these conversations here to get me to diversify and spread out a little bit more and which is why I like our dawn of everything conversations, a lot, right, because they're really, they're really you know, the way you think about stuff but I saw something this morning that I thought really sort of captures the moment. Can I share the screen for a moment. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so I saw this graphic here. It's just so awesome and the discussion that comes out that came out of it when you look beyond beyond right it's just wonderful. And the question is, are we in the oops or at the fact moment this is really what what the conversation here boils down to and when you when you read what what what people write here. It's mostly mostly agreement that we are most likely beyond the oops and and we're already in what we could could could consider deep do the right. And I'm, I'm in a number of conversations with different NGOs, and these are people who are in the know right I mean they understand the issues they understand the dynamics of the system they watch the news. Now right now you have major flooding in Bangladesh when you see those pictures it's just it's just stunning how a significant part of Bangladesh is just flat on the water. In the South China, you know the Guangzhou region is having massive flooding. And yet in other regions, you know you're trying up and trying out. And so the impacts of the slowing Gulf Stream is already being filled and that is at risk of collapsing. And I mean this the Arctic ice reducing more than reducing the power of these sea currents. There is a real risk if you have seen that video that scientists to explain how the introduction of freshwater, in addition to warming oceans could bring this to a drastic stop, which would change everything it would be absolutely global catastrophe. I mean these conversations where you know people who are working on on educational material on lobbying Congress and talking with members of Congress and they are not in the fact moment they're stood in the oops moment. We need to really accelerate where we are at this fine line of consciousness of conscious awareness because the moment we go beyond the oops line, then you really have to do something right because now you have to protect yourself. And I don't know how to get a, you know, there's always this this percentage of people the early adopters versus people who then showing later I don't know where we are to be very honest but I have a dumb feeling that we're not where we need to be to catch anything and to make an impact. So I'm sorry if I bring everybody down again, but that's sort of the, the, what prevents me from sleeping well, you know, because I constantly have these thoughts going through my mind and visualize, you know, I mean, unfortunately my mind wants to visualize how this is all unfolding, and it's not pretty. Thanks Carl, agreed. Unfortunately, you're the first comic you showed reminded me of the avocado ripeness stages cartoon where it's like not ripe not ripe not ripe not ripe right oh fuck too late. That's kind of the road we seem to be on. Scott Marshall Hank. Sorry, Carl had his hand up let's go there first. Carl if you want to unmute and jump in. Let's see the space works now. Yeah, there were two things actually the discussion that Stacy was bringing up Stacy and Doug have heard me talk about it before and get any traction but Peter elbow wrote. And a couple of books and then there's this article and stuff on the believing game, but basically the the scientific method is he frame says the doubting game, and there's, he advocates for a methodological way of seeking validity and things you basically so it's a compliment to the traditional scientific method which people refuse to talk. I mean you, we have a lot of fun. There's a lot of bias in there that that people have and then the, the other link other people might have seen and I did share it with a couple people on the call but there's some time about this guy's done some analysis about about has a framework about how to analyze the effectiveness of communication using some of Jane Goodall's speeches and stuff to but I think they're kind of connect connected and how do you. It's like the believing game challenges the prevailing paradigm so much you can't even get people to. Can you describe, can you describe the believing game a little bit more so we get a little bit more traction on it sounds really interesting. Yeah, it's um, yeah so bait. Yeah, basically as was I said, well people. I think one of I think one of the things is people were in that either or mindset and it's in and things so people think you're questioning the a genomy of the scientific method and and things so it but it's really a compliment basically saying that the scientific method is incomplete and things so as I said I've I just had a pop up on Facebook memories that I had posted about it like 12 years ago. I have yet to have anybody really engage in a conversation about it so this, I think is the right community to kind of take a take a look at it and see what people think. Thanks Carl. Thank you for taking that. Mr Karan said did you want to jump in on the thread where we are. I'm sure I'm reminded of an essay by the American pragmatist mid century philosopher, or at the 1900s. So last century philosopher, Charles Andy Perce, who wrote that the businessman has to believe in order to act actions come from belief. And he just doubts, and in this hilarious notion that the scientist is willing to leave his body on top of the other corpses but a little higher up the pile of corpses to the gate of truth, so that other doubters can climb a little further. That's about it. This is central to his version of the scientific method and his philosophy was fallibilism that scientific knowledge is always fallible. But there is a community process to basically come to temporary agreement on what should be what should be worked on what should be acted on. I don't think I have fallibilism in my brain there's an isn't missing. Dammit. Dammit, you stumped the band. I hate that. Thank you. Scott Marshall Hank. Let's see, well, Stacy you mentioned a book on music. This has been my favorite book on music. It's late. It's a neuroscientist who was a record producer. And it's a fascinating little. It's one of those things that we all sort of take for granted. And sometimes that we all enjoy music. But why it's unlikely that a combination of pitches and rhythms would have such a profound emotional effect universally. If you find someone who really does not enjoy music, they tend to be really on the edge of that bell curve in some sense. Maybe this is maybe this is what they should have been using in Blade Runner. But yeah, that's, that's an interesting. I hadn't really thought about that as I follow some of the AI progressions just very loosely, you know, are they going to be enjoying music. Who knows. Not just analyzing, but actually drawn to. So, okay. I have a call coming. I will get back to you in a minute. Thanks very much Scott. Marshall Hank Eric. Hi. So first time caller right and attendee what. What can I do for you. I'm next on the queue. We're checking in. So our rhythm is what is happening in your life that's OGM me or GM related any of that kind of stuff and just throw it in the mix. And we see where it goes. That's about it. Nice. Your life appears to be one large OGM object. So I think that you could scratch anything and we'd be interested. Thanks. What a fun group this is man. I'm power hour and loving it. Thank you so much for the invite. So I've got three things I am working on. I'm curating the weekly climate good news the pragmatic optimism section of the exponential view email newsletter. I am building with a team, a climate news aggregation community. I'm going to launch this fall in partnership with the exponential view cultural survival indigenous groups and now climate based climate jobs site. And then for my day job I just joined Thomas Gieselman's venture capital fund called headline VC, who was one of the first investors and delicious years ago. There's a lot of new aggregators there for for them. And throughout those projects, one of the, the OGM angles might be that I'm finding a lot of value from unlocking the knowledge to contextualize any given day's news events. So for example on exponential view last week we covered the first opening of offshore wind auctions in India this week, and we're able to contextualize the scale, which is very responsive by referencing previous stories of the largest wind auction generation in the United States that occurred a few months ago and the largest single wind energy production facility in the UK, in the world that's in the UK that just a bit ago as well. And I have only, you know, lights, systematic ways of contextualizing that I numbers are can be hard so I've got a running list of any, any scale of, you know, gigawatt renewable energy production that I just adding to in some room research so that I could go back and contextualize any new number that I see with others, but it feels like that's just scratching the surface of of unlocking value add through efficient contextualization of emerging news. There's a request in the chat to put a link to that so we can follow you sounds with super interesting. Thank you. So let's go Hank, Eric Gil. Yeah, thanks. This has been a great conversation so far, but rather than picking up any of the threads about value and values and capitalism and so let me just check in with something I've been concerned with for the last couple of weeks and months. As a number of you know I went to Stockholm for the Stockholm plus 50, and the World Environment Week activities and I proposed to a lot of people starting an initiative about conversations about mid century what's the world that we want to live in in three decades should be a multi generational dialogue about climate change and an international dialogue about climate change. And it was quite well received by a lot of interesting people in Stockholm and now, even though it's the summer or maybe because some is a good time to do this. We're looking for partners who are interested in contributing in very different countries. We've got people in Sweden, the Netherlands, Spain and Japan interested so far but love to get people in Africa, or Latin America involved. We're looking for people to design immersive experiences and frame these conversations about the next three decades and the moment I'm talking to a number of emeritus people from the Los Alamos labs but I think a lot of people on OGM who know of people who design immersive experiences might be interested in this. And very specifically, since I'm meeting people tomorrow work at the European Space Agency, and I did meet four people working in the European Space Agency type of projects in Stockholm. I wanted to look at how to use space and observing the earth from space and astronauts and newly launched telescopes as a kind of strange attractor to get people of all ages interested in thinking about and talking about the world they want to live in the next 30 years. So that's also putting things out to the OGM community. And it might be an interesting conversation at another time for people within OGM about how to get people involved in actively thinking and talking about the futures they want and how to get those voices heard by the so called decision makers in the world. That's my chicken. I'm just out of curiosity. When asking somebody to envision the world 30 years ahead, what from the work you've done on this and you've been on this for a long time. What questions draw out the best answers what what what kind of what can you ask her do or say or create that gives you really generative answers. I like to frame the whole conversation in terms of being a victim or being a builder. I like to say, well, I mean it's easy to sit back and say, well, I'm just a victim of those people up there the elite, the powerful, the rich, who decide everything for us. It's easy enough to say, well, I think the president of the United States or the president of China or the Queen of England, or the Pope in Rome. They have the authority to do these things and I say, well, you know if you believe it for them you're also going to be a victim. However, much you might respect the Pope or the Queen of England and I'm being a little facetious here. A wee bit. If, if you don't take some responsibility of thinking for yourself what you want, you'll never get there. I mean, it's like, was it the Cheshire cat and Allison Wonderland who said, well, if you don't know where you're going you'll always get there. But I don't think there's anyone on this call and I don't think there's anyone at OGM who was going to say, well, I don't want to just get anywhere. And I think that's true for millions and millions of people throughout the world both young people in their teens and ages, but even, even people in their 70s and 80s who say, well, it's maybe time to to think actually where am I going where do I want to go. So it's a framing issue that tends to bring it out and depending on the group and who you're working with, you can ask very specific questions but the framing not found so far is really important. Karls. Yeah, thank you Hank and also Marshall, you know, I mean everyone is working on such amazing projects focused on catching climate change and dealing with the environmental degradation around us. I was talking about timing. I was in a meeting yesterday that was organized by the Sierra Club, you know, legal team there with a group of activists who are challenging the idea of rights of nature. So does the river have a right to exist, for example. So that was a pretty lengthy discussion until I started to ask, you know, a simple question when you think about the legal process to sue United Nations, you know, in the United States to sue for rights of nature you're talking about years right and then let's say you win. There are tons and tons of laws and regulations on the books that no one pays any attention to that may be the fights, you know, over years of climate activism. And they're not being enforced and not being funded and not being done with as a why wouldn't you shorten your time frame and I think this is the graphic that I was showing the difference between oops and where it really is what are you focusing on that has an immediacy in results. And so, if you focus on the farm bill, that's a discussion underway right now. You know the United States government is spending billions of dollars of taxpayer money that influence the direction of how agriculture is being is being conducted I mean the industrial form of agriculture wouldn't be possible if the government didn't spend billions of dollars doing it screwing up our water and screwing up our soil and what have you. I think that we are at a point where we have to think about timelines and the investor need of immediacy, you know, in impact. And even with, you know, in a meeting like this yesterday, I mean, passionate environmentalists, you know really dedicated to doing what they're doing but focusing on things that are further out. So every time you read, you know by 2050 the sea level will rise but what does that mean no the sea level is rising right now, you know, and so you have to deal with it right now and so we have to change the language that we're using to describe the events and that instantly brings out conflict right because when you when you when you point out the immediacy of our scenario of our situation. That means we are asking for change. That has been running into now 40 years of pushback and it's intensifying and so timing I think you need to really say this timeline is just wonderful right between oops and for where we are at best on the threshold. But we bit demoralizing I will add, however, it should motivate some urgency but yeah that's a scary. I mean, that is how we're treating things. Thank you. If I may, can I, Jerry, do you mind if I do a quick response to that. Mark good. Yeah, go ahead Marshall then Mark. So I met yesterday with a leader at the UN in climate adaptation with a new focus on foresight, who said that his foresight group in particular was actively looking for blue swan events that could facilitate a rapid tipping point in a 10 year or last time frame towards a global shift towards hyper local economies, etc. And I thought that was was an appropriate framing relative to this, the previous comment is is blue swan event like a magical unicorn kind of wishful thinking or is blue swan event, a really interesting way to frame the hunt for leverage in the right places to solve these things. You know, you me and Google would all like to know a little bit better but my understanding of how he intended it was, you know, if the grace one is we're pretty sure it's going to happen we just don't know when. And then a blue swan is an intentional, I took it to mean an intentional time, undetermined but, but prompted transformative event, and like, I think the swans in general are very large transformative events just the way we're metaphorically interesting so it's this is kind of borrowing blue ocean strategies or whatever else, mixing that in with black swans which turned into grace ones were friends with Michelle worker who wrote the great rhino, which is the completely well understood thing that's facing you across the field that nobody's dealing with that's the great rhino, the great rhino has been repurposed into lots of different things is a very popular concept it turns out in China, and like China loves the great run on is all over it bts has sung a song that where they mentioned the great rhino. Some form of fame right. Mr. Kranz. From Hank. From the 30 year questions. I have a friend Betsy Burrows probably a lot of people know her at 70 she encountered advice to create her next 25 year plan and said it was incredibly transformative. And I don't know what questions, certainly she writes a lot about these things. I'd like to find out more about that. As I approach this. Cool. Thank you. Let's go, Eric. Gil Doug Carmichael. Hi everybody. I'm going to pick up on the topic of music. So, in my personal exploration. I put in the chat video that I made last week, where I was connecting songs like Irving Berlin's blue skies to cultural references like Al Jolson sang it, and it's in Star Trek. I just like to riff off and pitch perfect. I don't know what. Oh my God, you don't know the riff off. I will post a link. You like this. Keep going. Sorry. Yeah. And somehow, Steely Dan made it into that video, because I bought a book of sheet music and looking at that sheet music just made no sense. It's hard to read the chords are weird. I just followed that exploration and I tried one song, looking at it for a while and I realized that yeah these are performances that were captured. And yeah, it's there. It was really very finely orchestrated, but these people came in they rehearsed and they performed and many of the thousands of people did that in their career. And I guess I'm exploring artists I enjoyed while I was growing up. And so, I'm seeking a certain quality, and that there's something that has been lost, I think, or hard to find these days. And maybe it's from like early music early 20th century music. I studied piano jazz in my 20s. And back then it was a very technical exercise, but now I'm looking at it as an emotional connection to really seek that to feel the emotions as I listen to the music. I'm interested in non standard tunings, because the history of 440 as the standard has some interesting implications so there are things like 432 for classical music 444, maybe a healing music and 528 other properties, people do those kinds of music and you can find them on YouTube. And there's like Indian Raga music that very interesting structures, and also chip music. So that's where people go back to the sounds of computers from the 1980s for their favorite video games, and they produce it and it brings back memories for people who played those games. And so, and another related thing is Jeff Raskin from Apple. He studied recorder music, and I like recorder music I studied that in junior high school. So actually I'm really, well, it's not necessary to play an instrument to make music these days because the computer could do so much for you. So like I've fought in the past that maybe some performance art would be interesting but you know it's hard to see where that fits in for me and public performance I'm limiting it just to like my synagogue band in the synagogue and occasionally at a home for the elderly. Because I've seen how the elderly respond to specific songs from their childhood and it could really unlock people. And Parkinson's and a bunch of music is magical. Yeah, and the therapies that are used to helping people recover from addictions. It really does something in the brain it lights up a whole lot on the brain. So maybe the road to world peace is just installing speakers everywhere and forcing everybody to listen to healing music. Well, the right type of music. Yeah, if we adjust the frequencies correctly, then we'll all resonate. Clearly I'm being ironic but let's do it. But if we could find our way to music that works that's that's a cool thing. Thanks. I reposted the link to your thank you so that it would be closer in the, in the chat. Thanks anything else. That's it. Marvelous. Let's go Gil Doug Carmichael Carl. Yeah, thanks Jerry so few comments on what's gone before and then a few updates. Music yell let's let's let's talk more about music some other time. Or maybe let's even make music together as one of the things that we do together. Hank to what you're saying about visualizing the world 30 years from now reminded me of a process that we were doing back in the nuclear freeze days of the 80s. It was a process of house parties for a film that I was producing. And one of the things we did was invite people to visualize the world of the future. And I was stunned. One day where everybody in the room reported that they saw nothing it was black. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think we had the good sense to drop our program and just dive into that, which is probably what we should have done. There are other people who've mind that field more since then but I have just that. Um, which is about time which takes me back to Klaus's graph of the old fuck timeline. Two thoughts there one class you kept talking about we but in homage to Ken Homer. We tend to use we in different ways sometimes even in the same paragraph or sentence. And we use all of humanity and that thing is a timeline of kind of where the humanity is at any given moment and it moves hopefully the proportions hopefully change over time. Which leads me to the question of how do we talk to people who are focusing in different places or who would place themselves in different positions on that graph. How did the people who are who say fuck, talk to the people who say it ain't nothing. And how did we listen to each other. And, you know, so makes me do one of the three things I want to touch on one of the other things I'm touching here is I'm thinking a lot about democracy. These days, and fascist I'm surprised why might that be. And, and the challenge of on the one hand winning political power which we doesn't look like we're going to be doing very well at this year. And the other hand building bridges to, you know, to somehow heal the rifts and find, find ways to move the middle. I'm not going into the details of the hearings this week but I'll just say that I'm, I'm both scared for the Republic and our safety Republic and not Republican. And, and, and really concerned back to what we're talking about with cancel culture at the top of the call. I'm really concerned by the tendency of the progressive side to purge its ranks on seat for purity at a time when we need majorities or effective majorities at the polls. So there's a whole conversation to do there on personal front I'm focusing as best as I can on critical path capital for those of you who are new this is a holding company that we're standing up to buy small and medium sized companies from retiring baby boomer vendors, climatize them democratize them basically produce ecologically grounded employee on community rooted companies, focusing on the picks and shovels of the next economy this is not BC clean tech invention. But the things that need to get built to make the transition happen everything from, you know, solar panel racks to wiring harnesses for cars to heat pumps to you have it. We're, we're hot on the trail of that. A request out to you and it's may not be the universe was probably not the universe for many of you but maybe there's a little thread somewhere to some uncle somewhere. We're looking for a couple of private equity renegades. People who have been in that world to have chops and heart, who know how to do that thing but want to do something different with those. Is there for those the opposite of those traits, but for the heart part. Well, that's why I think there's some renegades who've been it been there and said I'm fed up with this I want to do something I really care about and I have skills. So I'm offering those. You want to recovering private equity person. Well, yeah, I'm using renegades because it sounds more fun than been recovering. It does. But yeah, that Maverick Maverick is fine. Maverick is just Maverick is a guy though renegade is a quality. Interesting. Good. Maverick was some dude who refused to brand his cattle. So that's another story. So anyhow, so folks who have been in that world who want to do something for the what we all hear care about who are in the fuck zone of the chart and so forth. There's really interesting analytics of how to understand what our markets and market potentials are Marshall. If you're still here, I'd love to talk with us. Are you gone? Love to talk with you about some of the stuff you're doing spent an hour yesterday talking with hi Marshall with a guy who's doing some very interesting database and web scraping to identify business patterns and where the opportunities might be of where do we find the companies that we want to focus on. And Marshall I'd like to talk with you and those of you who play that sort of game Jerry I'm thinking back of your past life in industry analysis. There's a conversation for us to have to. So I'm having a blast. I'm in territory that I've never lived in before I'm just thrilled in every conversation I'm learning a lot. The offer that we're developing makes a lot of sense. We're juggling the kind of it's it's a chicken and egg in three dimensions it's a team and money and pipeline. And so we're sort of pushing on all three fronts. The first one that pops the other two will pop very quickly. I'm pretty sure. So that's, that's my report today. Thanks Gil sounds great sounds like you might have wrong Marshall's bow Marshall do you want to jump in for a moment and ask a question or. Nope, just shared my contact info. I'm just happy to chat. And I threw you a LinkedIn thing. Thank you. Fabulous thanks Gil. Let's go. Doug C curl john. So what's been on my mind this last week that's been new for me is looking at increasingly the tension between Russia and the West and Europe. And I've been looking at it in part by the withholding of the grain, which is going to create chaos around the world and probably not tolerated by everybody. So it leads to an increasing probability of a serious war between the West and Russia. And I've been looking at it quite a bit and a lot of conversations, and it just looks rather terrifying on top of what we already had with cascading failures around the economy agriculture politics income inequality, and so on. Who in any of our radars has a good grasp of the logistics economics fallout of Russia's capture of Ukraine's grain, etc. Plus, you know added on to these other kinds of effects have you found anybody or has anybody else found anybody who is really like on this trail and with trustworthy information Gil. There are pretty good discussions and Twitter. Can you can you do you remember. Brian would be one person. There are others. Thank you. Yeah. Zion does a very interesting geopolitical analysis with a lot of emphasis on the geo on geography and resources and rivers and and such, as well as economic history and cultural history and so forth. Pretty interesting guy. In fact, this thing is called Zion on geopolitics. There you go. New book just dropped this week called the end of the world was just the beginning. Here it is the end of the world is just the beginning mapping the collapse of globalization. Interesting guy who's been on a couple of different calls about the current situation very interesting to follow and here's his Twitter account posted in the chat. Thank you. So let's go. That was a lovely glimpse of the power of your brain. Thank you. So what when you. I just got to say when you're adding to the same place over and over again, it accretes. And it's like, and if you don't fuck it up by letting it run wild. It's actually useful. I appreciate that. Carl john mark. Back to you Carl. Yeah, I've been. I've been using the brain since 1998 meeting Harlan at a conference and stuff so the scalability question is always, that's been one. Get the redundancy versus like, if you want to share it with the smaller group of people to and that. I had some, I mean it's fundamental things on my mind that the believing game is needed which I also see linked to the six thinking hats the yellow hat thinking. So it's been trying to make some traction there and then the whole issue of trust and can have really getting groups talking and some of it can't be recorded. And so if you can't trust anonymous things along those lines. So that's where my thoughts are right now. Thank you. Appreciate it. Let's go to john mark. Okay. Thank you, Jerry, I've been away quite a bit. And, you know, distracted by some things that are not on the face of it, OGM, but, you know, we're dealing with life and death. You know, from a, from a little bit of a remove we think it's actually we I say OGM we think it's closer than most of our, more than mainstream folks think and that's why we're reacting the way we do but in my case it's getting very close. My sister is going into hospice today. So that's been distracting me it's actually, it's not in a way it's not as bad as it sounds because the, the really terrible thing would have been if she had gone in a week ago when she really was not herself and really not would not understand what was going on but there are signs that she does understand what's going on and we're following her five wishes and we're doing all this stuff. And there's a huge backlog of people who know her because of her work as a nurse and they're working with Rwanda. So she's in the VNA hospice facility, they all say oh yeah we know Mary Jo, we're fine. We'll take really good care of her so there's actually good stuff inside the, the common situation that we all face which is you know eventually we're dying and this is happening for her probably in the next one to three months. So that has been distracting. Nonetheless, I really appreciated this conversation today and the richness of it, you know, there have been times when I thought, you know, we're just spinning we're just talking. But I did the density of the connections that people are making to information as as an essential precursor to action is really good. And it is an essential precursor. It's much better that we try to encompass, try to, you know, find the blue swans, then that we just go out and act, you know. So I'm very restored in a way by this conversation today. I appreciate it very much. And I'll be back. I'll be probably going to see my sister. She's down in Santa Barbara. I've been there. I'm probably going to go back again pretty soon. But anyway, really appreciate this group. Thank you. John. Thank you. My heart is with you and your sister and your family. Let's just go into silence for a second to appreciate what you said and to think about the situation that you and your family are in. Thank you. Let's go, John, Mark, Doug, sorry, Mark, Doug Breckbart, then Michael, then me. Thanks, Jerry. John. Yeah, my heart goes out to you. I'm sorry you're going through this and of course, more for your sister, but good luck. Peace comes. I'm not sure as it well, but in the moment it's really, really tough. I am working at the Internet Archive. I just posted a kind of biological foundation of values and I was amazed that the coding search site. Stack over flow. No, I think it was a different one. Anyway, I just saw a, you know, a thumbs up, you know, meh, thumbs down. And I think that that middle value this doesn't apply to me. This is outside my own belts. And I don't, I don't register this as is a very important point on on the scale of the foundation of values. I'm not clear what you mean. Can you like unpack it a little bit? Sure. If you're an organism in the environment. There are features in the environment that you don't notice. As a human, we don't notice ultraviolet light, but the bees are like, see a target at the middle of the sunflower. And so, you know, the sunflower does not apply to you in terms of food unless you're in the sunflower seeds or, or you're near sunflowers if there are no sunflowers in the state of Oregon, it also doesn't apply. And this wacky bunch of Catholic theologians at, I was going to type it in lyceum.institute. Oh, that's right. You've been doing work with them. Yeah, I've been, I've been studying with them on, you know, basically re integrating into the culture, the real post modernity which is going past modernity rather than what is called modern and philosophy right now which is really an ultra concentrated form of modernity, but going back to the notion that the human brain is not for intelligence it's for experiencing. And when we basically cut off, you know, this feeling part of thinking, we're really kind of breaking the system that is humanity and biology. I'm not a big fan of AI, but I am a big fan of Mike, Jerry, were you able to connect with Bob Stein. No, totally fell off my agenda and I need to contact him thank you for reminding me I apologize. That's okay. I've fallen off the radar of OGM and what brought me to OGM was an open global mind and Eric, we need to talk. We need to talk. It's just MP, but hey, what is Stuart Brand said, time is only a resource because it limits our transactions. And that's another value of we are limited. And we have constraints and we have constraints on constraints. Anyway, what we're doing is with Bob Stein creating this notion of tapestry and I am pushing for protocol not product but basically taking the links of the web. And rather than having text that's underlined blue, you basically have a picture of where you're going, a website, the album cover, what have you and basically making a more visually distributed way of linking sites together. And I am studying something called lit.dev. I can type that in, or somebody else can type in lit.dev but basically, there we go. Which did not turn into a link. But basically it is a standard of web components. It is a, you know, basically a web standards standard, where basically, we might be able to create a declarative way of creating something like the brain, so that you can take a topic and basically create a map a mind map in what would basically be HTML. What? Yeah, so that's, I hope to reconnect with the parts of OGM, which are about mind mapping and shared thinking and, you know, of, you know, it's been noted, you know, whenever people get together to talk about collaboration they turn out to be the least collaborative. That's a reality that, you know, we all have to struggle with and try to find out, you know, what is, you know, collaboration and, you know, there's politics and it's definitely tough. I wish my job was more about collaboration than it was about sticking my head, my face into a keyboard and screen for many hours a day. That's, that's the basics. I'll cut it short. But we're really trying to make the web better. And there's a D web camp coming up, which is going to be an amazing meeting of people in August. I think get the web dot com possibly. But basically, we're also have for anybody in San Francisco and Jerry, you know, come down and visit. We have Friday lunches that people show up at and those are open invitations but email the Internet Archive first to throw up the little afternoon on Fridays. Thanks. Thanks, Mark. That's awesome. Love that. We're near the end of our time. Let's go to Doug be Michael and then maybe me if we have time but go take it away. So my, I guess my, my primary focus for the last 18 to 24 months has been working with Tina Goderman on bringing the five elements ancient five elements in the way and Buddhist wisdom and tradition to application. So it sort of provides a plug and play for getting arms around all the soft stuff, the human, what's the human being this part in humans doing together co creating together. And it's providing a way of seeing and reading feeling sensing into what's needed. The thing about the elements and the natural world is that imbalance. And the addressing of it is never about taking anything away it's always about what's missing what's needed to bring it back into balance. So it's always additive. And the five elements can be really handy in clarifying and answering the question what's needed. In the class your, your call to action is something that rings loud for me. I come at all of this from the other end of the telescope which is, is there a way to catalyze that blue. What was the reference blue swan swan. There's never a way of doing that with values good intention and in service to on a massive scale. And that somehow the magic in that has to do with the spiritual and emotional and physical dimensions of human beings, not the intellectual so much. And I guess the last two bit on all the reference to music in an elemental frame. It's actually a sensorial channel closest to space closest to the divine to source. So, that's sort of at the heart of its power and its energy it's appeal it's draw. Because we actually reconnect on a felt sense level with everything that we're connected to in fact. So just offer that as a contribution. Thanks, Doug. As I type in the chat I've got a balance. If there are any any comments on that but I'll pass the con repeat and see you all next next Thursday. Michael. Wait waiting for my, my benediction by Pete. Hi. I'm hearing elements of particularly what Mark said, and, and, and in things that Marshall was talking about Jerry and Jill, and really everybody here at one time or another. Let's speak to my like ongoing efforts to collect and connect all kinds of things, whether it's bits of knowledge, people objects. And we have so much stuff that's so rich and the, the, the challenges in collaboration. You know it's really interesting when I look at something like lit, or, you know, here Marshall talking about what he's up to, or, you know the Internet archive. There's all this. And factor, there's all this collecting, you know, going on and trying to figure out how to connect what you've collected, you know Jerry's brain as well. And then connect the connections that the collectors have collected. And that's where the collaboration breaks down, you know, it's the interoperability. Of all the actions that we all know we all need to take and we're taking individually. And, you know, Scott was saying, you know, it's, it's decide what you're going to do, separate, you know, get back together, separate, get back together, and that getting together and building interoperability and building systems that people who are not part of can fall into. And one tangentially, one, one thing, one place that it's easy in a way. Is with objects and and Gil, you know, I'm thinking about this in terms of boomers a lot. I'm both in my own life through the mortality of family and friends. And, and in my experiences in talking to other people running up against a lot of people who have gathered physical manifestations of their knowledge and art and their irrational skill. And where do those go when they don't have time for them a place for them space for them offspring who want to carry that on. And so much is lost so much is, even if it doesn't end up in landfill and often it ends up in landfill. It doesn't find its connection to, to people who will appreciate it and the knowledge that went along with it can't be tagged with that and live on past person. So, I'm actually in conversations with some people about building some, some structures around that that would be certainly could be for profit, but trying to figure out some way of doing it in a, in a co-op way that, you know, gives between 1-800 junk and, you know, people who have collections that are recognized enough to put up to auction at Christie's. And, you know, their, their existing state sale entities and ways to donate stuff to the Internet archive but, you know, having, having a network of experts who can, can shepherd the things that we all leave behind and say, this, this needs to go to the Internet archive. This needs to be composted because it's compostable. This needs to be, you know, this is has value to collectors to shepherd that stuff and not, not just do the most expedient thing. I looked at the models that a state sales have where they basically say, okay, you know, we'll give you 90% of all the stuff of the cash we can generate from the stuff that we can sell from for over $1,000, but you know, it scales down to, you know, if it's inexpensive and not, you know, easiest for us to just donate to goodwill, you know, you're not going to get anything, but we're not going to go and find the optimal place for it to go. So I'm thinking about that a lot with physical objects. I'm thinking about that with regard to knowledge to and, and really excited to talk to each of you and just continuing my quest to connect the collectors and my wish that somebody with more technological chops than me would, would share with all of us the keys to interoperability on that. So it's a little brain done. Working on it. Thanks. Thanks, Michael. And the limited time that I have it's just like all meetings yesterday it's just, oh my God. Yeah, I got a right code to. It's been a fun call folks. Keep going. I just want to say one thing. I just want to cut in with one thing if I can manage to turn my background off just to answer Carl on saying, what about books. Yes, indeed. What about books. So I'm hearing you. I'm working on it. Let's talk to you better Carl. If you have you don't have enough. What's that. If you know how many books you have you don't have enough. Yeah Michael Michael or Mark should mention that Internet archive loves to receive books and digitize them. And you still have access to them but you don't have to fill up your house with them so that's an option for everybody I've done a stack of shipments them and we'll do another round soon. It takes a lot of time to get them package shipped to the Philippines digitized and online but but basically. Yeah, it's it's not so that we can digitize it and shift the books back to you unfortunately. We got to keep them to have a digital or to have a physical copy in order to lend them out. And Kevin. I'm not here late. I've been in Tupelo for the last three or four days my sister-in-law got a bad case of COVID and she had nobody to sit with her so my son and I were there and we're finally leaving Tupelo where it's 100. It's only 97 degrees and the humidity is not, you know, it can get super saturated here. So you can get 102% humidity because the air just holds more. But it's not that way today so it had been anyway. As always in the summer I'm glad to leave Mississippi. We have our serious wireframes on our for profit multi donor marketplace and for profit crowdfunding equity marketplace tomorrow so that's pretty fun. And we're also calling it a friend, because we have a piece of it. Anybody who knows more about this than I do that is replicable across these things are equity fund, etc. One of the friend who's had that kind of consulting practice but if anybody has a magic sauce IP consulting practice in your history if you could reach out to me that would be great. I've never, I've never done one. We have something we don't know how to price it we don't know. Well and we don't know consulting delivery and there's a million things we don't know. We don't know anything about it. Anyway, it's been by has has that kind of expertise is we have some things that people will want, and they'll want our method of doing it. So we have to figure that out. I could talk to you a bit about that Kevin. The normal way to do it is, is to have either your internal consultants or you know aligned external consultants trained on the IP and then you don't actually sell the IP so the consulting. That's okay. If you have a link you can shoot me in by email or whatever I'm on a phone right now because we're driving through Mississippi that'd be great. So thank you. Yeah. The other side of that Kevin is that if you, you're not going to have as wide a reach properly if it just goes through your own consultants so licensing it out. Maybe an option to consider but then you have the question of training and quality control and so forth but we're yeah. In that case, I wouldn't license the IP I license the, you know, I would have approved consultants that have access to the IP. Yeah. Okay. That's those are good ways to look at going forward. Thank you. Anybody else. Good stuff. Thanks. Thanks all. We'll see you around. Thank you.