 Ito wneud. Welcome to the 18th meeting in the European External Relations Committee. The usual requests on mobile phones and electronic devices are switched off unless you are using your iPad for your meeting papers. I note apologies for today. Jamie McGregor will not be joining us today and we won't be having a substitute either. We are moving on to agenda item 1, the Brussels bulletin. It is a very detailed Brusil's Billetin ac yn rhan o'r ffordd ar hyn o'r ddau'r teimlo i'r cyfrifwyr. Rwy'r cyfrifwyr yn mynd i ddaw'r cyfrifwyr, mae cyfrifwyr yn gweithio i'r ddau'r cyfrifwyr, ac mae'n ddau'r ddau'r cyfrifwyr i'r ddau'r cyfrifwyr. Mae'n rhan o'r ddau'r cyfrifwyr. Willie Coffey. Maen nhw i ni i fy ffordd y ddigital y cwmysgol sydd yn rhoi'r efffort mewn cyllidag mewn? Rwy'r cyflog gloryr ac yn cael ei cyfleoedd ddim yn ffordd y ddigital sydd yn llarwyddiol, ac yn cyflog, ond yn gael'r ysgolwyd y ddigital. Ie, rwy'n sori'n cael ei gwyllgor i chi gweld sy'n amser lleol yng nghymru i gyd, So, I wonder if there's a future opportunity for us to do a little bit more work, and understand just quite what their role in re-mit might be with regard to the digital single market. I think that that would be a useful piece of work for the committee to engage us. Hans-Ella? I was exactly that point, so I was actually wanting to make some of our own track for Felly, the digital industry is a favourite of both of us. It's high time that we try to roll as much of that out as we can. I'm with you in that. It's absolutely a priority for us. Clare Adamson. It's just a comment. I'm really on the European Commission selection process and observing the possible candidates and things. I'm struck that there isn't a lot of gender balance to see the least in the selection process. I'm just wondering if that's something we could look into. What qualities and mechanisms, if any, are used in actually proposing the commissioners? That did pique my interest as well. Rodd Campbell. That was a very comprehensive bulletin. I kind of lost the thread. It's exactly where we are with Lord Hill's hearings. I don't know if Katie can actually update us on Lord Hill's actual current position, still going through the hearings. We can get an update on that. Obviously interested if he's going to have the financial service brief. I'm getting particularly interested in the fourth money laundering directive and progress on that. Anything that we can find out about that will be of interest to me personally. I have a quick comment on Willie Coffey's question. The discussion that we had last week about our work programme. There are a few ideas that were brought up in that, obviously, by yourself and others. We are working that through the proposal. I hope that we will have something that will meet your satisfaction. I notice in the report that there is a mention of one or two awards to Scotland, for example, to support projects in Scotland under the transport infrastructure heading. It would be really helpful if there was some kind of summary page of awards made to Scotland from time to time under whatever heading. It was a theme that our friend and colleague Helen Eadie used to bring up at this committee to keep an eye on what awards Scotland was or was not receiving. I think that that would be really useful. It complements what our other colleague Jamie McGregor said last week about strengthening the case for Europe and being able to particularly ensure the positive advantages that we get. There's lots of good work going on here, but sometimes it's useful to just summarise it in terms of the awards and the various programmes and the value of them to Scotland. I think that that would be really helpful. So, wherever compiles are going, it would be lovely if you would make some contact with them and ask if that's possible. We can do that with Scotland Europa. We put together quite a bit of work. I expect this to be getting heftier and heftier over the next few months as key themes and policy emerges from the commission and the European Parliament. Definitely that would be something that would be interesting. It also feeds into the work that we do as far as structural funds and where that money is coming and where it's going and how it's being spent and the six-monthly updates that we have for the Scottish Government on that, so that we complement that as well. Thank you. Rod. Yes, it's one other one that I wanted to stress. I thought that it was quite encouraging the comments in relation to the impact of the Erasmus student programme saying that there were students who had been on that and were far less likely to experience long-term unemployment. That's quite encouraging. I was also encouraged by the next comment that the commissioner-elect would be looking at labour and mobility as well as just employment issues. The idea that somehow people moving across Europe for jobs was a bad thing is not borne out by the commissioner-elect. I think that that would be a very interesting topic to keep an eye on. It's one of the key policy areas, the key aims of the Italian presidency. We've got the ambassador later this morning, so it may be something that we can start to investigate with him when he's here, but I think that you're absolutely right. You will recall that we were making great efforts to make sure that we had somebody in place that would help organisations apply for European funding. I've not really had a report back here about how that's progressing. Have they actually applied physically? Have they assisted any organisations and whether they've actually been successful or unsuccessful in their bid? I would very much like to have some sort of feedback of that at perhaps the next meeting. Yeah, I think that's that, the Scottish Government person. Yeah, yeah. We never to look into that before, did we? This committee was instrumental in creating that post in the first instance, and it was for a specific task. We just want to see how that's progressing. I've got the cabinet secretary's morning on the EU strategy as well, so it's going to be fine. I wouldn't want to put it in that position. I'm not sure she would have that detailed knowledge that the report would come. Yeah, it's more likely to be John Swinney's portfolio. I'm quite happy to put it in a difficult position. I want me to, but I'd rather not. Okay. Are members content to send the brus billet into our subject committees again highlighting to the subject committees some of the points that we've raised this morning? Yeah, happy to do that. Excellent. Thank you very much, and I'm going to suspend it briefly to allow the cabinet secretary to get into her seat. Okay. Welcome back to the European and External Relations Committee. Moving on to agenda item 2, we are covering the Scottish Government's plan for European engagement this morning and tend to run this session till about 10 past 10. Is that okay for you, cabinet secretary? I'd like to welcome the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs, Fiona Hyslop, who is assisted by Craig Egner, who is the head of the European relations team at the Scottish Government. Cabinet secretary, I know that you're going to talk to us about the Scottish Government's European priorities if you want to go ahead with your opening statement. Okay, convener. Thank you very much for inviting me to speak. Obviously, this session comes at a very important time in European affairs. The European Parliamentary hearings concluded this week for the new commission under the new president, Jean-Claude Juncker. We expect the new commission to be formed next week, sorry, next month following approval by the European Parliament. We understand there may be one proposal that has not been accepted, so the Scottish Government will watch closely as the new commission set out its new agenda. The committee has long been interested in the Scottish Government's EU action plan. The current action plan framework was established in 2009. It's been updated regularly since then. It doesn't seek to address every aspect of EU business, which the Scottish Government covers. Rather, it pulls out some key areas. Indeed, our EU business has evolved quite significantly from where we were in 2009. We're refreshing the action plan and we'll take account of the new commission and the new European Parliament following the main elections. We hope that the committee itself will wish to be involved in the work that we undertake to refresh our action plan. We continue to publish updated annexes on the action plan twice a year to coincide with the rotating presidency. We share those with the committee and I hope that you find them useful. The latest annex was published in August. It covers our work under the Greek presidency and looks ahead to the current Italian presidency. There is a positive overlap of the Scottish Government priorities and those of the Italian presidency, as highlighted in the action plan. Scotland and Italy have similar priorities for engaging with member states, EU institutions and other EU stakeholders. I met the Italian ambassador yesterday. As you will be aware, there are over 6,000 Italians living in Scotland and our two nations have rich cultural tourism trade and industry ties. I was in Siena at the weekend speaking at the Pontignano conference, the third consecutive year that I've attended. Of course, there was great interest in the Scottish referendum, which is the greatest democratic experience in Scotland's history and has many lessons that people are interested in. Turning to the Italian presidency of the EU, this is the first of a trio with Latvia and Luxembourg. Our EU teams in Scotland and Brussels are working closely with the Italian presidency, the EU institutions, the UK representation and other key EU stakeholders to ensure that Scotland's priorities are communicated across all three council presidencies. Priorities areas for the Italian presidency have highlighted three priority areas for their presidency, and you will hear from the ambassador later. The first is a Europe of Opportunities concerning economic and financial activities. One key area where the Scottish Government is seeking to engage with Italian presidencies is on youth employment, where Scotland has the only youth employment minister currently secretary in the EU. The Scottish Government has been marshalling over £143 million from the period 1213 to 1415 to support young people into work and towards work, and our efforts are making a difference. In 2013, the proportion of 16 to 19-year-olds in Scotland who are not in education, employment or training decreased in all 32 local authority areas, and bearing in mind the period that we have gone through, that is quite significant. I know that there is interest across Europe in learning and sharing from our experience. Other areas in the opportunities agenda are on energy and climate change, the single market, a digital economy, action on industrial policy and financing for growth. The second area is in relation to a Europe of Rights. The other priority area of a Europe of Rights covers justice and home affairs issues, including immigration. Of course, the importance of the immigration issue was clear in the results of the European elections with the rise in the popularity of parties in Europe promoting an anti-immigration agenda. It is also clearly important to the Italians with the on-going humanitarian situation in the Mediterranean, but we agree that this is a long-term strategic issue that requires all of the EU to take responsibility. Regarding justice, we expect further progress on the European Public Prosecutor's Office, which started off hugely complicated. We understand that it is now in better shape as well as the data protection package. A number of member states share Scotland's concerns about the proposal on the EPPO. However, negotiations are progressing in a positive direction, with more power being given to the national level and greater flexibility and structure. While the UK will not be participating in this measure, it is an important priority for the Scottish Government, given that it is likely that Scottish law enforcement and prosecution authorities will have to work with the EPPO once established. I know that that is an area that the committee has already taken interest in. Thirdly, the priority for the presidency of a union of global engagement encompasses the external dimension of the EU. That includes trade and crisis management, where the commission will present their package of enlargement and the presidency will work on free trade with a clear focus on agreeing the EU-US transatlantic trade and investment partnership. I know also that the committee has a great deal of interest in clearly the UK is one of those countries that will benefit most from the TTIP agreements and within the UK Scotland is well placed to benefit in terms of jobs and services. We will continue to look at that as well as to identify the EU work on developing the approach to trade with Asia. The priorities of the Italian presidency are not only short-term goals for the six-month council calendar but are also benchmarks for the incoming commission mandate, which will be seeking progress and change across the EU for the next five years. Our engagement over this period is not just about the short term but about the setting of the commission agenda going forward over the longer piece. Finally, the question of EU reform will be present. That follows again some of the politics that is happening in terms of anti-European parties, gaining seats in the main elections for Europe and, of course, within the UK's with the Conservative Party's in-out referendum promise. The Scottish Government is opposed to an in-out referendum on EU membership in 2017, where exit from the EU carries a significant risk for growth and jobs in Scotland. We believe that reform is best achieved from within the EU and we have set out in our proposals for EU reform, which I have circulated to the committee earlier in the summer, where we can do that in existing treaties but can also progress reform without risking the important aspects that are important to Scotland. That was a lot packed into the work that you do. There are a couple of things that jumped out to me, and you are absolutely correct that the committee is taking quite a keen interest in the transatlantic trade and investment partnership. You mentioned the benefits that could come from that agreement. We have obviously been lobbied heavily about the pitfalls and the problems that can come with a transatlantic trade and investment partnership, commonly known as TTIP. I was wondering if you could give us an update. We have had some communications with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Cabinet Secretary for Health on some of the concerns that have been raised via the committee. I wonder if you could give us an update. I know that there is an update. There is a GIMC due soon, and I know that it will be on the agenda for that. In looking at TTIP, it is going to be important to look at both sides, the benefits and the problems. If we just respond to and react to the concerns about it, I think that we would be missing the responsibility that we have to ensure that jobs and growth are supported. We as a Government are supportive of the proposals for TTIP, but it does not require close scrutiny and the purpose and agenda. If you look at the strong US investment in Scotland for jobs and growth, some of which were just outlined by the First Minister earlier this week in terms of our progress, Scotland has seen one of the best inward investment periods since devolution in terms of the experience that we have had, particularly in the last year. It is going to be important to weigh up in looking at the positives in terms of the trade opportunities and reducing some of the costs to particularly small businesses. Remember, one of our challenges within Scotland is to internationalise a lot of our SMEs to make sure that they can do more in terms of exports. I know that that is an issue that a number of you have raised with me. That is the opportunity for Scottish business, Scottish firms and Scottish jobs to be able to export more, and we have to help and support that. However, on the downside, which I think is where you are coming from and where you have had approaches, are the risks that TTIP could potentially have for some of our key services. On health, for example, you will be aware that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Well-being is in correspondence with the Secretary of State for Health and the European Commission regarding cast iron assurances that whatever the approach to the provision of health services in the rest of the UK, TTIP will not affect the Scottish Government's ability to determine how NHS services are provided. We want to be constructive and engaged both with the UK Government and the European Commission on TTIP, but we are quite clear that there are some issues particularly around the importance of public provision of health services in Scotland that we feel very strongly about. I had previously raised the issue in TTIP with the UK Government. There is a GMC in Europe. We do not normally share agenda items and we normally report afterwards, but I can confirm the meeting on Monday, which unfortunately will not be attending. Roseanna Cunningham, the Minister for Legal Affairs, will be attending. That will be one of the issues that is on the agenda with the UK Government. Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. We will keep a close eye on that one. Just very quickly, another thing that jumped out to me was about the ECHR and some of the proposals that are coming from the UK Government to repeal that legislation. There seems to be a lot of debate this week in a lot of academic circles and legal circles on the impact that that would have on this place, on how the Parliament actually works and on how the Government is required to work, as far as legislation goes as well. I wonder if you could give us some insight into the Government's thinking on that. Well, again, the minister of Roseanna Cunningham answered a question in Parliament this week on the issue. It is something that we feel very strongly about. We would not agree to any consent motion or sole motion from the UK Government that would remove any aspects of human rights from our provisions. This Parliament in its very being was established to be compliant with ECHR. It is something that I think that we have been very proud of. I think that there are two issues to this. One is the practicalities of the actual policies and the impacts, but the second one, which I think is probably more important, is the politics of this. From the UK's position, it has been marginalised in so many different ways in terms of its attitude towards Europe, but to remove or to walk away from human rights and the ECHR and its application within this country would send out a signal that would further marginalise the UK, not just within Europe, but further afield. Why is that important? Well, from the UK's perspective, I mean, they can speak for themselves, but obviously, as a continuing part of the UK, we have an interest in this. From the UK's perspective, their influence in terms of empire or the economy or indeed in many ways the military might has been diminished over decades, but one of the areas where the UK has a reputation is in terms of fairness and justice and value and the rule of law and human rights. If that is one of their aspects in their international foreign policy, they think that they can use to influence other countries that are with challenges themselves. That completely and utterly diminishes any moral authority that they have if they walk away from it. To me, there are two aspects. One is the practical implications for what it means constitutionally and in terms of law, but I think that the imperative is about the message of what we stand for. One of the areas that has been interesting in the short time that we have had devolution is the reputation that Scotland has built up in relation to the importance of human rights and a whole variety of areas, but not least also how you can implement them. The human rights action plan, for example, there was a session earlier in the summer that we hosted in the Scotland House in Brussels, where we brought together experts from across Europe who are interested in what we do and how we do it. What is happening with the UK is not only just counter to the practicalities of the constitutional setup of this place and potentially other areas. I am not sure that it happens very often that you take evidence from the Parliament itself. Obviously, I am sure that you will be interested in taking evidence from ministers, particularly Roseanna Cunningham, who has had a lead on that. I think that this is one of the few instances where I am not sure how the Interaction Committee is taking evidence from its own Parliament, but there is an issue for the Presiding Officer on this place. That needs to be identified. We are clearly taking this very seriously and communicating it to the UK Government, not least again. I can not make it a subject that will be raised on Monday with the UK Government. In examining it, we should look at it in two dimensions. Maybe the committee, as the external affairs, should look at it not just in terms of policymaking on devolved areas but about the reputational aspects and the implications for Scotland but for the rest of the UK elsewhere. For those accession countries or other countries looking to join the bench, the bar in terms of human rights is very important. The idea that the UK would be the only country, the first country in the world, to go backwards in relation to human rights is fairly incomprehensible. Perhaps I should finish at that before I get over a few issues on my concern. I have Rod Campbell and then Hanzala. Cabinet morning, Cabinet Secretary. It has been a matter under discussion for about as long as I can remember whether the EU itself would accede to the European Convention on Human Rights. It seems to me that, with your portfolio, you are entitled to have discussions with the UK Government about its current position on that. One presumes that, if it ever got to the point of that being a serious issue, the UK Government would simply try and veto that so that the EU would never actually sign up to it, but that has just kind of added interest into the whole convention anyway, so. An interesting perspective is to think that it is a good thing across Europe and what they think internally. They would need to be consistent with their positions, but I think that this is the opportunity to try and shape that itself. I am not sure that that is something that I would encourage them to think about. You are right to ask the question, but, in terms of our position, we can clearly, and we would, in terms of what comes up on council agendas as they go forward, we do have the opportunity at the GMC Europe to influence that. Clearly, from our point of view, we would want to see the extension, but that might not be a UK position, but that is the point about devilishness being able to try and advance the case and the cause. It shows the limitations of what we can do if they turn around and say, no, that we are going to veto that. I think that we are getting to territory that they can speak for themselves rather than we speak for them. Thank you. Good morning. You have said a number of very interesting things about the human rights and how that would affect us. You have drawn attention to the diminishing military might that the UK has. I think that one of the big issues for me is that we do not have a common immigration policy across Europe. I think that has always been a bone and of contention for me is that how can we be a part of a European union have free borders to a degree and then not have the same immigration policy. It works against the face of things and human rights are affected by people. We have seen boards turned away in the Mediterranean by European countries who champion the human rights cause, but practically they do not practice it. The difference between the UK and perhaps some of the other European partners is that the UK actually honours the European, sorry, the human rights policy. I think one of the issues for us in the UK is because we do not have a common immigration policy. It is very tempting to play around with the human rights bill. I think that is a dangerous and a slippery slope to go down. We have seen human rights being eroded on a daily basis in terms of how we arrest people, how we entertain people. We are just making rules on the who fats we go along. What is actually happening is that we are infringing on people's human rights. We either do this the right way or we do it this the wrong way. Some of our European partners are doing it. We are just winningly taking actions without actually following the human rights bill that we have all signed up to. Therefore, I think it is right to look at it absolutely. In terms of where we will stand with that, we are a UK government and eventually we will all have our representations through our MPs to have our views represented at Parliament. I agree with you. I do not think we should be diluting it any further. I think we have diluted it as far as I would like to see it go and I think beyond. However, there are issues. The world is changing very rapidly and there are very serious issues. We see Kurdistan. We have seen shelling between India and Pakistan only a couple of days ago. There are huge issues around the world. I think how that affects people in different countries is very important. We are not actually interpreting the human rights and the immigration policies the way they really ought to be interpreted. We have got people in Europe, for example, who are wanting to come to the UK. They are already in Europe and they are in European countries. If they are asylum seekers, that is where they should be. That is what the bill is actually saying. In reality, it does not happen that way. I think re-examining it is a good thing. I would agree with you in the sense that I would not want it to be diluted any, but I would actually like to see it strengthened. What I do not understand is how the Scottish Government will have a role in that, if any. Is it going to be directly through our MPs? Or do you believe that you have a role in which you can influence the Government? We do have a role and not only do we have a role, we have a duty to speak out so that I think any parliamentarian of any government, if they feel strongly about any institution, if they feel strongly about issues, and human rights in many ways, no borders. They are a part of that. That is the whole point about that humanitarian aspect. I think there are, although in terms of jurisdiction and laws etc, the borders are national. The concept of human rights is absolutely by essence international. I think there are different ways that we can look at this. In terms of our influence and what we can actually do, obviously you as a committee have got roles and you have laced with UK institutions and the Government itself. We will do that internally within our Government-to-Government discussions with the UK, but we can also do that directly and have done in relation to the European Union. I am talking about how we are going to refresh our action plan. We have got the four pillars. One of those pillars was justice and home affairs. Clearly the points that Anzala has raised are the areas that have traditionally been within that ambit in terms of human rights, immigration etc. In terms of the agenda going forward for ourselves, the UK and the European Union, we have to look at the interplay between immigration, human rights and external affairs and security and stability in the world. Too much of the immigration agenda within the UK has been about within very inward looking for some parties in the UK playing to prejudices. Some of the immigration issues are within Europe. If we concentrate on the issues within Europe, because that is in terms of borders, whether it is Shengen or the common travel area of the UK and Ireland, practicalities are within that. In Europe, I said in my opening remarks about the wider issue of the issues of people coming to Europe as a continent and the implications of the instability for whether it is environmental instability through climate change, which is impacting on the southern board as considerably military conflicts, which we are seeing extensively. All those things will take a long term strategic requirement. The European Union is finding its feet. Rather than finding its feet, it has now established in terms of the European Affairs Service its role and responsibilities. One of the challenges, and it will be for the Italian presidency in setting out that framework, and for the commission going forward, is the interplay between all those issues. If we do not address some of the issues about north-south movement or about energy or security or, indeed, about climate change, we cannot have an immediate short-term impact. Climate change again, again thinking how we get into some of these issues, climate change is one where Scotland has built up a reputation, has expertise, is assisting. However, if you think about the environment committee and I do not know who your European rapporteur is on the environment committee, in relation to what is likely to happen if we do not tackle climate change, what is likely to happen in terms of the movement of people who will become environmental refugees as opposed to the economic refugees that we are having just now, that is a big long-term issue for us. We have also got to consider Europe as an ageing continent. Most of Europe is ageing. Italy is probably a different example. It has a very young population, but the vast majority of Europe is an ageing population. What does that mean in terms of having people of working age that can contribute in terms of tax and where will they come from and what does that look like? There is a point about all the interplay in the wider agenda between the external affairs and the GHA. My concern is that although there is some progress, and it was good to see the joint agreement on visas, for example, between the Irish Government and the UK Government earlier last week, the UK's opportunity to influence any of this credibility will be diminished if it ends up being reactionary in terms of its immigration policy as opposed to long-term and strategic. In terms of human rights and the interplay between that, it's voice of authority has diminished, not just the practical policies that it might influence. I think that in terms of our role that we shouldn't be bystanders in this. We shouldn't say just because we've had a referendum and the result was no. We should somehow retreat into a box of limited devolution. We've already established a base camp of our influence both in climate change and the fact that we've got a separate justice system means that we already have direct links in relation to GHA issues. This committee has built up a reputation, at least the conveners, of her work on issues around whether it's in trafficking or human rights on that wider agenda. I think that we have an authority within our devolved competencies because of justice climate change and indeed the economic environmental impact of humanitarian issues, but also we've got an authority that we're building up from experience and expertise and I think we should do that and if that means of being a voice of conscience within the UK we can do that but I hope that we can we can use that to influence the EU and its developments as well and there shouldn't be a limit on our ambitions but we should be targeted about where we can influence and why, not expect to replicate the whole services of the UK but there are clear areas and gender areas whether it's through justice home affairs, our separate legal system, whether it's through climate change or indeed whether it's about the strategic thinking about where the economic wealth and stability and environmental security and energy security of the continent of Europe will be. That means that we have to think like Europeans, I think that Scots do think like Europeans more so perhaps than elsewhere but we have to take on that obligation and that's not just my obligation, that's one for the Parliament and the committee itself, sorry to make this. Thank you, thank you. Just a very brief follow-up from that. I mean we see what's happening in Ukraine, it's in part of Europe, we see what's happening in Turkey just now which is in part of Europe although not part of the European Union but they have aspirations for joining the European Union and they've been trying to address some of the human rights issues within their own borders. What are the main thrust, what is the thrust of your concerns in terms of change? What do you think that's going to change, that is going to be detrimental to our high standards that we hold? I mean we're renowned internationally for being a very fair and a very democratic nation. What do you think there is a danger of losing? Well it's the authority to encourage other countries to behave in a way that's compliant with human rights. How on earth can you lecture other countries and I'm not sure lecturing is the way to influence but you know try and encourage them to take a position when you're walking away from human rights and I think the issue of Turkey is very strong. You know in terms of the opportunities from Turkey are very strategic in lots of different reasons not just geopolitically in terms of the current situation but also in terms of the economic growth rates that Turkey's experience recently is very extensive. There are a lot of interests common interests in terms of business between Turkey and Scotland not least in that whether it's in investments and financial services or indeed other areas and you know we've seen the success of Turkish airlines in terms of Edinburgh airport in particular. The Turkish government have opened up a conflict here in terms of encouraging businesses but we also know in terms of the accession process and their application and their desire to be part of the European Union there are a number of hurdles that they'll need to go through and one of the recurring issues is on human rights and I often you know in fact I know from the parliament I met the Turkish president when he arrived I think it was last summer for meetings with the Turkish community and interests here you know people are saying it will always and do you raise the issue of human rights frequently in this parliament opposition members are on that agenda. The moral authority to be able to to try and influence good practice on on human rights issue for whether it's Turkey or elsewhere becomes diminished if you yourself as a state which the UK is walks away from that. Now you know I think in terms of Turkey I mean I've been involved very early on in my ministerial responsibilities in this area for helping finance and pay for you know trade genius business people the third sector from Turkey coming to coming to understand better the European institutions and how they can develop and move forward and I'm very positive of that agenda but you know along with you know along with rights become responsibilities and human rights is also responsibility and that's where the context of this should not just be seen in narrow case law for individual issues because some of the issues and again it's your better place to speak to the minister for legal affairs on this area some of the cases cases the high profile cases that the UK site in terms of the overall percentage of issues is very small indeed so therefore you know playing politics with human rights on a short term basis could have serious long term consequences for the UK and its influence across the world that's the bottom line. Thank you. It's just a supplementary in that area cabinet secretary talked a lot about immigration but what are the challenges Scotland also faces is immigration and our following population and given that following the referendum we are where we are with different challenges across the UK how will you be addressing this issue and I was particularly struck during the referendum campaign anecdotally albeit that there was a perception that somehow Scotland was full up and I don't think our population fully understands some of the challenges that a following population could bring in the future. Well if you look at the Government's economic strategy it has a number of different strands productivity participation in the workplace one for example the other is population and making sure that we've got sufficient people you know sufficient numbers of working age population to be able to pay for taxes and so that you know when I eventually get to my Zimmer somebody can play for my healthcare and all the rest of it and that's very important but you know it's working age population contributing and some of the myths that go about in terms of immigration you know particularly from Europe in terms of the studies that have been done the net contribution that you know migrants made to this country in terms of the contribution in taxes to our country is quite considerable and I think we need to surface that more in terms of information but there's two ways of tackling that one is to make sure that you have you know good quality jobs and services so that the young people of Scotland can remain here if they choose but it is quite significant that you know it's 37 000 of the I think it's about 70 I'll correct the numbers if I've gotten wrong of the of the emigrants from Scotland from Scotland are under 30 now that's great opportunity you know fine but not because they have to leave so part of it is addressing your work age population by making sure you're keeping your brightest and your best but there's other ways of doing it one and also the post study work visa for the brightest and best of the world that are coming here now remember the interplay of policies you know we've pursued and I was you know I'm very proud to have been the minister that took through the abolition of tuition fees legislation and you know what does that mean you know not only have I understood if I've managed to save a billion pounds from Scottish students yes but the consequences of that is we've attracted students from elsewhere now that has potentially been a cost but also the investment that the Scottish Government has given to our universities has made sure that they have maintained their their investment level so that that hasn't been to detriment to them but for every international student that comes here you know their mums and dads or whatever their visitors that come will spend money whether here there's an economic benefit to international students but also there's an issue about the brightest and best getting the brightest and best to stay here so in relation to emigration you know the issue could we within the Smith's commission or part of the proposal look at what we can do in that area for example and which had previously happened that you know idea of differentiated competitive edge happened under Jack McConnell when the last you know Labour executive liberal democrat executive so we need to think about in those context in terms of the wider movement you know as I said this should be seen within the context of Europe as a whole you mean Europe's got great strengths but you know if we doesn't if it's not dynamic in its economic growth of which population is one of them and that's going to be a real challenge to us so we need to think about you know about it in those terms as to what that means and you know if that means that you Scotland requires to go from 22,000 to 24,000 to make sure that we have a maintained working age population contribution you can either do that by recalibrating the 2,000 of those that leave or identify 2,000 that might come on an annual basis to you to help our economy but it's also in the key sectors you know energy life sciences you know key new sectors for the world not where we can be leading edge and that's where that relationship between attracting the brightest and the best keeping them here for those industries for example is going to be really important and how we therefore become more attractive in relation to that so it's the all it is the interplay of all these issues. The other year I'm interested in developing is looking at kind of diaspora policy both outward and inward I was very interested that Jimmy Dailin who's the who was a previously culture minister in Ireland has now been appointed as a specifically tasked diaspora minister within the Tishos office so I'm very keen to learn more about what they do so obviously there's something about mobilising your interests externally across the world but I'm also very conscious and I met the Ukrainian community just yesterday morning about what that means in terms of whether it's a Polish community, Ukrainian or other strong communities that are within Scotland how we work with them as well not just the different ways of historic immigration but also the current the current talent that's coming to Scotland with the new the new Europeans. Can I ask another area? Can we move on to another area? It kind of leads me into the other question that I wanted to ask this morning cabinet secretary and it's in relation particularly to the other side of your portfolio and culture made very successful international culture summer here in the summer where the topic discussed the theme of the conference was culture as a currency of trust and you note that the research and creativity is one of the four priorities. I was just wondering if you could give us a bit of insight about how arts and humanities will take heart in that process and what benefits that bring to Scotland. Yeah I mean we're very keen looking at the funding streams to look at creative Europe in particular and the opportunities there. The digital aspects are very important that's why in terms of our Nordic Baltic policy statement and my recent visits particularly in relation to working with some of the Nordic countries what we can do there there's a read over that in relation to film as well a lot of film production is co-production and in terms of how we can then stimulate that market as well and in terms of jobs and services it's an area of expertise we can try and work with different countries so I'm very keen to progress that and part of my discussions with other countries are on that. I think it's quite interesting about I hadn't realised this but apparently Scotland is the second to France in the number in terms of the cinema attendance per head of population and actually probably we're not as well served by cinemas in lots of parts of Scotland and what's interesting is using digital technology of what you can do and I was recently up at Thurzel at the community cinema that's there and they've been using digital course digital streaming means that you can get the best of culture for whether it could be Paris or Berlin but it could also be from Edinburgh Scotland or Thurzel beaming out into other areas and they were talking about the reach and range and some countries particularly in Nordic countries when you've what it's not just health services for rural remote areas it's also about the right for entertainment and also that cultural life which is so important so there's something interesting about trying to you know in that in that area that I'm looking into what we can do I can't give you you know definite plans just now but I think there's great opportunity because we've got areas of expertise and one of the things that particularly in terms of a number of countries you know particularly Baltic countries Lithuania is a good one are very interesting our creative industries and how we promote you know how we use that and that's an area that the UK have been quite happy for me to lead on on behalf of the UK because of our experience in this area it's going back to the representation that we have where we've got areas of expertise and experience whether it's creative industries whether it's fishing whether it's climate change use a key areas where actually you know we've got strengths and you know within the constitutional settlement we should be able to lead on behalf of not just Scotland but the rest of the rest of the UK and I think digital is one of them our gaming industry you know as you know is very very strong indeed and the growing into play between gaming and film in the digital world is great opportunities and bearing in mind if you go back to linking up all the policies if we were trying to internationalise our export base for our SMEs that's going to require the platform that everything will be able to operate on a digital basis in terms of promotion internationally exporting and therefore growing a cadre of you know digitally literate students that can then influence exporting opportunities for example so these areas are all connected but I'm particularly interested in that area and the culture summit with 25 countries not all governments are represented they're not all from Europe by any means because we wanted to make sure it was wider wider than that over the six continents I think is a very good platform for our reputation and the experience and that exchange and already as a result of the culture summit we're engaging in some of these issues particularly with Baltic countries could I raise a couple issues but the first one being you talked about export so one of the things I'm hoping that this committee will look at is transport links with Europe and further afield but specifically in my own constituency we have the port of Versaith and currently there is there is one ferry operating failure I think a company EDR operate that ferry and it's a freight ferry passenger ferry that came off but there is an issue there right now with the European Sulphur emissions directive and that company I know that the chief executive the fourth port has written to Alex Salmond and I'm in the process of writing to John Swinney because that company are basically saying that as a result of the sulphur emissions and the ferry not having the standards that's required they they are basically saying that they think they may have to pull that route completely and pull the ferry and I'm wondering are you aware of that and obviously the consequences of that is that we have lorries running south to ports like Hull etc and what we actually do and to look at that issue specifically but to look at how we actually get our ports more in use so that we can actually have companies get an easier access to markets in Europe and elsewhere I am aware of the issue I know the government is taking these issues very seriously and I'm not in the position because of neither the transport or economic enterprise minister be able to give you an immediate response at this stage I think the responsibility we all have and and use the local member and ourselves as as government is not to unnecessarily cause fear and concern what we need to do is resolve the issues where we can so what I can tell you is that the Scottish government is aware of the issue and we'll seek to resolve whatever it can within its powers to try and I think address what the issue is but I'm not going to give you any detail I can't I'm not in the position to give you any detail but your your question was am I aware of it and the answer is yes is it is it been taken seriously the answer is yes will there be positive resolution will I hope we can all work together collectively to make sure there is okay and let me more broadly as I said I hope that this committee starts to look at the wider issue of transport and what we're doing could also you talked about the importance of youth employment and and I do wonder what models we have across Europe because one of the successes of Scotland in terms of where we're at with youth employment even though youth unemployment is still at unacceptable levels one of the major successes I would argue is the role played by local government and that's not very often actually mentioned when when ministers like yourself and others talk about the success of youth employment if you take again my own constituency and say in five five councils diverted something like nine million over the last two years into apprenticeships and today they've a success rate over a thousand youngsters being placed in apprenticeships with private companies and I do wonder is there models across Europe because while we we we tend to have the rhetoric in this country about talking about localism we tend to ignore the fact that the important role that local government is actually playing and no councils across Scotland have really good projects and are very successful in engaging young people in training and skills have you looked at that in terms of Scotland and have as there are European models there where actually local government and regional government are playing a major role in terms of tackling these issues well I can I say that Andrew Constance as the cabinet secretary for for youth employment has been very active in terms of looking and learning from different countries I know she's been in Germany and Switzerland and indeed some of the Scandinavian countries in looking at their models so we are always looking for different models and how they can work and obviously the wood commission part of the wood commission's work I think was looking at that kind of what could we learn from elsewhere in terms of your point and again it's the interplay of different areas I can actually you know from my own experience as a minister relate to the role of the different tiers of government so for example and as a European dimension so you know I was the minister that managed to secure the funding for 25,000 modern apprenticeships when I was the education secretary and because one of the things we wanted to do that at that period it was kind of the eight nine period was the recession meant that we knew there would be a big impact in those areas I also was very conscious that in terms of the I specifically pursued the league table in relation to councils in terms of those councils that had the lowest levels our say the highest levels of young people not in education employment training and focused specifically on the bottom five to move them now some of that and that meant learning from some that there were better for example and I also remember meeting going to fife to look at some of the examples of what was done and what was quite clear in that relation and I think you should probably get an update from the current youth employment minister as what was done at that time or what she's currently doing because obviously things have moved on significantly even since then but one of the things we did was we brought forward European structural funding as much as we could now you know the government did that for capital to make sure that we could plug the gap of what was happening in the private sector by ensuring that we were front loading as much of capital investment as we could as a government in that period but one of the things that might not be aware of I also did that for using European structural funds to ensure that we could tackle the issue of young people so that we didn't go back to 1980s where you know you had a you know you had a you know an economic downturn that caused an impact for generations and one of the years of doing that is to work the interplay between skills agencies local government and other and in each local authorities you tend to have a different calibration of the relationship between all the different agencies bringing them to work better together was very important but also recognising those local authorities that kept modern apprenticeships and I know where I represent was one of the few that did actually keep them because some of them some local authorities had moved away from that so I think best practice whether it's international or best practice locally is really important but use of European funding for young people is one thing that we feel very strongly about so therefore in the last you know when I've been representing our interests in with the UK in relation to some of the funding issues making sure that use employment particularly and our flexibility to play to local strengths because it's not on one side of it's all even within Scotland making sure we have flexibility within the funding streams to be able to tackle use employment but to do so by following what works well in different areas where it's fife, the airshare or West Llesian is really really important so my experience is obviously a bit dated because it was a previous point but I'm sure that's an issue if you're interested in that obviously connectivity you can you know that I want to hear from the transport minister but also in terms of use employment how your agenda and looking and learning from elsewhere is being done by the current current secretary for use employment I think will be very helpful and she also then make me able to give you an idea of what European funding is being used used at what local level and how we can play to the strengths of the local authorities are doing things well and how other local authorities can learn from the best practice that we've seen in some areas but I absolutely recognise your point. I just very quickly final point in terms of Europe I mean the general view we've all been spending a lot of time on doorsteps recently the the general view it there is it's remote it's over bureaucratic people that are involved in it on a bit of a jolly it's costly I mean there is not that sort of good sort of perception of what Europe actually does how do we change that given that we feel Europe is so important for Scotland I think you've got to get back to basics and it's job services and it's about wages and you know one of the challenges we've got in Europe is the austerity measures which by and large across Europe quite often are blamed by everybody on Brussels and that you know the move to have a growth agenda you know we've got to have someone a growth agenda and people are sharing in that growth and that means stimulating demand and one of the ways of doing that is to make sure enough you know people have got sufficient wages to be able to buy goods and services from within Europe to help stimulate that growth like that's a kind of basic economic argument one I think is a very good point to make to the ambassador who will obviously be discussing this issue with after me I think I absolutely firmly believe that the most pro-European part of the population are young people because they see things as jobs and opportunities when they can but that can't just be at university level or as much as it's got to be in other areas as well and it's also about driving up wages so therefore the issue that we've debated at length in this parliament about the fact we don't have powers over the minimum wage so that makes it difficult then to insist in contracts about the living wage we are pursuing that actively with the European Commission but a basic thing like that that affects people's lives I think all of us in all sides of the referendum will identify the way to get people interested in politics whether it's European or Scottish has to be about things that affect in their lives environment affects them hugely people feel strongly about environmental issues but jobs and services and and and issues around you're protecting hard for rights and I think in going back to the issue about an in and out referendum I'm sure across the political divide will agree that one of the best things that's come out of Europe is protection of employment rights for many many people and reminding people that that's something that they have and they wouldn't want to lose will be very very much part of of that so I think it's about bread and butter it's practical issues it's relating to how things impact on the ground and we shouldn't just rely on your MEPs to be our you know to talk about Europeans and be Europeans we all have a responsibility to communicate that it's not just me as the external affairs cabinet secretary it's everybody but it's a huge I mean you know because there are conferences just on that subject I'm not going to beat you but you know brass tacks basically I think is where we need to be good morning cabinet secretary I want to just pick up the theme on youth employment that was mentioned by Alec Rowley there you mentioned in your opening presentation that Scotland has the only youth employment minister I think in Europe and that we do appear to be bucking the trend in terms of the figures and statistics I noticed from the Brussels bulletin this morning that in Europe they've still got 23 percent of young job seekers age 15 to 24 couldn't find a job in January 2014 I think that's about four million youngsters in that age bracket. Do you see much interest from from Europe in what Scotland's done in appointing the dedicated minister and what kind of lessons can we learn from? Yes there is and as I said Andrew Constance has been active in this agenda and working on workshops and different things that have been established by the European Commission on these on these agenda areas I mean our unemployment is not you know we've still got big challenges a long way to go and you're what the figure you quoted as an average in some countries it is much much worse and you know so therefore again strategically you know you cannot have a say we saw what happened to the youth of Scotland in the 1980s that have now probably the grandparents that have never known work because of what happened in the 1980s and the dislocation that that can have and the health consequences and all the rest of it so the real kind of strategic issue about stability and security across Europe there are some countries where that level of youth unemployment is not just bad for the individuals it could actually have you know the long-term implications for that are extensive but also some of the short-term kind of anxieties or you know what could happen in societies where you've got that where people feel so distant removed and and and and and if you're unemployed a young person unemployed in Spain or or Italy you know how are you going to feel to the authority of power or et cetera and you know stability and key if we believe that you know cohesive societies are essential for economic growth which i think that's probably an economic consensus within Scotland those societies that don't have that cohesion and have huge levels of youth unemployment that that's that's a danger for them in many many ways so those lessons have must be learned i'm convinced the the time presidency will take this employment very seriously i think the commission should i think it's interesting in terms of how john claude you know because the establishment of the commission of portfolios although there's movement and change some of it retrenchs some of the or inherits some of the and probably for understandable reasons inherits the the previous administration i do think that you know the committee that i tend to deal with is youth culture and sport and it covers lots of different areas the idea of europe having a dedicated commissioner for youth is is very strong but you know unfortunately my my influence empire is on i'm setting out the structure the commission might be limited but you know if if you said both you said both an opportunity in terms of the european argument in many ways from mobility opportunities the best of europe can be benefited by the young people but not all young people and i think that's the challenge is that there's two sizes this is how does europe collectively deal with what happens with young people and the youth employment guarantee which we already meet in many ways because in terms of our policy but the idea of that being a really important part of the political signal of how europe is taking young people see how can young people take going back to alex point how can young people take europe seriously if europe doesn't take young people seriously you know it's a it's a virtuous circle and so therefore you know we're very strong in arguing that the uk government should accept and and support youth employment guarantee not just obviously in practice which we by and large do and therefore our strengths tend to be on employment we've got far although our unemployment figures compared to to you who currently are fairly comparative where we're stronger is on positive destinations so that after a period in training or other areas we've got far better levels of sustained employment and particularly for those leaving school the rates now you know to say that the rates of young people that have got positive destinations are better now than they then then you haven't gone through this period of recession i can downturned and they were in 2006-07 it's quite remarkable that's a great achievement but we still have more to do so you know we need to learn the lessons so that there's two aspects to it is it's the moral authority going back that you can you know if you talk the talk not just you know walk the walk and all the rest of it you can actually you do both sides you deliver not just in what you say but what you do that's a strong argument so again that's an area where we've got responsibility for it it's not reserved people are interested in what we do and can learn from and going back to Alec Riley's point we should learn from others as well so i think you know we need to be quite targeted in the areas of our intervention but youth you know the youth employment agenda i think is one of the biggest not just facing this country or indeed the United Kingdom it was a state but also also Europe very much so i absolutely agree with you i mean i think a european commissioner for youth employment would be a fantastic state i think we're behind the curve on that one i think it's a good time for one very quickly cabinet secretary you mentioned the kind of overlap with italy in terms of some of the key areas that we would like to focus on and the digital single market is one that is interest to me and the committee and also i see in the italian program for for working the next six months do you see any further progress being made in european mobile telephone charges and that kind of issue i know europe made some progress recently and it's flattening out roaming charges but we all know that as soon as you walk into another jurisdiction with your mobile phone you tend to put it in the drawer and use it when you come back home do you see any work there to actually establish a real single market in terms of charging for mobile communications throughout the european union well it's one that we're very keen to ensure happens and i think it's quite interesting that in the themes that you're looking at in terms of subjects and when you're planning your your activities and you know transport as connectivity is very important part of improving the economic outlook for Scottish firms and their engagement but so is digital as connectivity and it needs to be seen in the same light as as as transporting to the value it adds to connections for economic growth activity and also about communication i mean if you think about it in the wider sense and it's about how europe sells itself to young people and vice versa is you know we've seen the sort of growth in social media in terms of political engagement ourselves through our referendum experience obviously that's happening on a global sale as different kind of international connections so there's opportunity there's political opportunity but there's also economic opportunity from this in terms of the practicality of the of where we are in relation to the development of the single market i know it's a priority for John Codd yw'n cair himself i know he knows that this is a key area of development and progress and indeed we recognise that in in terms of our communication with the incoming commission as an area that we as a jurisdiction is very keen to progress in terms of providing you with an update i'm probably better just to come back to you and what i haven't consulted with my colleagues in the enterprise division to give you a better kind of assessment of where we are with this and what's likely but i know it's a key area that you're interested in and i'm sure you'll pursue it with the economy committee i think it's a good area in terms of how your committee works across parent with your apertures to to work with economy committee on the theme of connectivity both digital and indeed traditional transport okay thank you okay watch Campbell thank you convener um before you go cabinet secretary in the absence of Jamie McGregor i thought i better ask you a question about marine environment and fisheries in terms of really uh uh kind of your involvement and what you foresee personally as your involvement going forward in in this area on behalf of the government i mean clearly it's an area that we've got expertise on um indeed there were some recent uh successful completion of i think it was the marine spatial planning directive which we had direct involvement in so again it's an area of expertise if you look at a previous the comments that we've had um to previous presidencies the marine area is one of the key areas it's an area particularly in relation to our work with Ireland and accessing some of the the the funding streams um from Europe and we're working very well with them and we're just as the continent official to the commission um as well and i think it's in this area on the fishing um it's the fishing fishing issues management so um it's not just what we do in terms of um our representation we also want to make sure that you know our expertise is used within the commission and the more that that's done the better so i think that's a very that's one of the areas that we've looked at um obviously Richard Lochhead has worked very you know very extensively in this area i think it's quite interesting he said to me and i'm not in fact he will now be the i suspect the the the fisheries minister across Europe with the longest experience because the previous one was swedish and obviously sweden i've just got a new government so he used to say that Richard was saying to me that in terms of um ministers i mean he has been seven years as a fisheries minister there will be nobody with as much expertise and obviously in terms of the geographic responsibility the amount of of waters and fisheries interests that we have so you know it's one area that i i think the case is so strong that with that area of expertise speaking um on to an agreed pre-prepared line with the UK across the UK that i would expect Richard Lochhead to be leading UK delegations um going into much of the fisheries discussion but in terms of um Jamie's interest in its you know food drink agriculture and marine we're very conscious that these are areas of competitive strengths um we have taken a very active interest certainly in terms of a ministerial engagement and going back to my very first point about refreshing the action plan which is what i know and the committee is interested in as well will make sure that those areas of competitive advantage interest and expertise are very much surfaced in that action plan so that you as a committee can solutionise our activities perhaps more easily than i've been able in the past thank you thank you um hanzala thank you um i just wanted to revisit the the the transport element of things and there's some very positive things happening in scotland in terms of our airlines across the world people the turkish airlines we've got amraths and we've got cutler airlines and we used to have PAE parks are international airlines and i know that the the parks and community in glass were particularly working to re-establish that link what i'm hoping to ask yourself is how can we actually take full value from these links in terms of our trade to these countries are we actually um holding some sort of um database that actually demonstrates what our experts are exports are to these countries due to those links um other than just tourism um and if you don't have could we possibly have a look at that to see how we can best use those links we absolutely do and every arm of government is active in pursuing connectivity and improved connectivity so whether it's visit scotland for tourism and i notice might can't think we're just announcing another canadian link um delighted to see the extensive links in the us philadelphia now for example um hugely important chicago part of my previous scotland week visits to chicago i met with the airlines so i've met with my deputy hamzae usef as you know has been very extensively involved in some of the the developments particularly in the gulf states in terms of connectivity and promotion so every arm of government has at some point been involved in this it's very coordinated sci and indeed Scottish Enterprise i'm sure we'll be able to furnish you with the information they have but i thought was quite interesting in particularly talking to Edinburgh airport and turkish airlines about their experience with Edinburgh was the initial thought that a lot of the traffic would be obviously of tourism both ways but actually the bit they were pleasantly surprised by the business opportunities that came from that now that's a great for for that those air links and those lines and those um passages now but that's also a good story to encourage others um so it's not just about you know individually it's how we work collectives here look we are good for business um it's a great opportunity um so it's an area that i think you know if you take an active involvement as a committee as well that connectivity we can but i it's probably easiest if you um in developing your work stream in relation to connectivity is to identify with sci and it and Scottish Enterprise the figures that are there but i'm hugely optimistic i'm also very pleased with progress to date but to reassure you that you know both Humza Yousaf and myself have an active in in this area as well as the the transport environment um and uh so the transport minister and the enterprise ministers as well so a great opportunity and you might want to look at the segmented way or integrated between tourism and business but by and large it's quite interesting the interplay between because it's outward bound and inward bound um but you know that's the point if you're wanting to encourage your SMEs to become more international international and export focused we have to then help facilitate the opportunities they have to do business whether it's digital connectivity whether it's skills and talent of young people and to help support them digitally or indeed through languages or you know is it in terms of connectivity through flights and all those areas are absolutely critical for the success of Scotland but i'm optimistic but there's a lot of hard work that needs to be done in that area thank you very much and maybe just a quick update for the committee i believe that is a possibility that the economy committee are doing something on export so we should communicate with them cabinet secretary i know we said we would finish at 10 past 10 and we've obviously explored lots of areas just one very quick request i would make plea maybe for all of my colleagues and maybe just not this committee but all of the committees is one of the issues we have with the Westminster Government is communications with MSPs and we've always had a tough time with the home office and that seems to be now extended to the department of work and pensions and i'm just hoping that the scottish government and all of its communications with the UK government will be impressed on them how important it is for MSPs to be able to go on and do their job point taken appreciated understood and it's something i've done previously and continue to do perhaps we should use the new opportunity facing scottland to get a good respect agenda that allows everyone to go by the business indeed cabinet secretary i thank you very much on behalf of the committee for your evidence to this morning we've explored many many areas and i'm giving us lots of information that will inform our work programme for the coming months thank you very much i'm going to briefly suspend committee for 10 you know maybe eight minutes um for a quick comfort break and for us to make sure that we welcome the ambassador appropriately thank you and welcome back to the european external relations committee um our agenda item three this morning is um with and to hear from his excellence excellency pasquale to the chiano who is the italian ambassador to the UK um and we're going to discuss this morning the italian presidency of the council of the european union can i welcome you very warmly ambassador i know we had reception last night and i hope hopefully you had a very warm welcome last night can i also welcome the guests of the ambassador and others this morning to our public gallery including green blithe who's with us this morning is the head of the european commission office in scotland and jackie miner who is as he puts at his boss um at the UK office um ambassador i believe you have some opening remarks and we would love to hear from you now thank you madam convener and good morning to all distinguished members of the scotish parliament i have some introductory remarks on the priorities of the italian presidency and on what we have achieved so far while presenting the priorities of the italian presidency of the council prime minister renzi stress the italian presidency is a unique opportunity to discover the true soul of europe and the profound meaning of our life together with this spirit italy has engaged enthusiastically in this particular atypical presidency which takes place against the background of a deep institutional change and at the beginning of a new legislative cycle but despite the objective limits of this transitional phase this is a key period to set the strategic priorities for the EU institutions for the next five years the italian presidency is acting as a catalyst for policy change to allow europe to return to a path of sustainable growth and restore the citizens confidence in the european project we want to turn the present phase the beginning of a new political cycle into a fresh start for europe in the last three years of all EU member states both those in and those out of the euro have been focusing on assuring fiscal consolidation and deficit reduction at national level we have initiated important structural reforms in order to recuperate competitiveness but this is not enough to address the deep malaise of our peoples who were dramatically affected by the recession and now fear for their future and the future of their children it was such a malaise so as to result in the rise of europhobic parties all over europe at the last european elections in fact the motto of the italian presidency is europe a fresh start our main aim is to create a better stronger and more effective europe we have reasons to be confident in june the european council started to address european citizens concerns by agreeing a strategic agenda for the union in times of change which has been presented by the new president of european commission yunca we consider this a very important achievement both at political and institutional level for the first time the appointment of the new president of the commission has been clearly linked to a number of strategic priorities agreed by member states just when the candidate to the top job of the commission was selected on the basis of a process considered controversial by some member states it was necessary to reaffirm the central role of the member states in designing the working agenda at EU level in order to facilitate a common and coherent organization of the work among the EU institutions now to i come to the priorities of the italian presidency there are basically three a job friendly europe delivering economic growth moving europe closer to its citizens an area of democracy rights and freedom and stronger and global role for europe and foreign policy now we are midterm into our semester of presidency and the time is ripe for a state of play assessing what has been achieved so far in these three areas and what remains in the agenda for the next three months growth and jobs with more than 26 million people unemployed in europe the italian presidency is focusing on creating more jobs and fostering growth as the two main drivers of the EU economic policy implementing the youth employment initiative relaunching the EU 2020 strategy deepening and strengthening the emu boosting competitiveness in the EU implementing the digital the digital single market promoting industrial renaissance achieving a common position on climate energy package 2030 it should not come as surprise that on almost every single topic i have just mentioned today more than ever italy and the uk share a similar approach to the similar approach to the policies which are needed at EU level to deliver economic growth and jobs and to move europe closer to its citizens this is especially true for the need to fully exploit the potential of the single market in all its dimensions including the market of products the market of services and the digital single market reduce unnecessary administrative burdens and cut red tape for SMEs support open and fair trade and strategic partnerships make progress in the economic monetary union while respecting the integrity of the single market and preserving transparency and openness towards non-euro EU countries and promote climate and energy policy i affordable energy for companies and citizens secure energy for our countries green energy as an engine for growth while recognizing that the specific concerns raised by the united kingdom and related to the future development of the EU will need to be addressed as stated at the european council last june the italian presidency thinks that today the EU must be flexible enough to be able to support and to act as a multiplier of national government's efforts through effective european policies and investments the uk is an essential and indispensable partner to achieve these goals given the decisive added value the uk has always provided in key moments in the life of the european union as recently stated by prime minister matheorensia at european parliament a europe without united kingdom would be would not simply be a less rich europe it would be less europe less itself together we can work effectively to shape a better and smarter europe less intrusive and more efficient now on progress achieved on growth and jobs the italian presidency is focusing all its efforts on tackling the scourge of youth unemployment including through an effective implementation of the youth guarantee scheme given the alarming high level of youth employment italian presidency hosted yesterday a european summit in milan on unemployment and growth as a follow up to the summits previously held in paris and berlin following a clear european roadmap the italian presidency is working in all council formations in order to redirect the action of the u to the strengthening of the real economy our objective our objective is to boost competitiveness while tackling social exclusion and enhancing the social dimensions of the emu on these issues the presidency is promoting political debates within the sectorial councils with a view to a final report by the presidency as contribution to the review of the EU 2020 strategy the report will also address the need for closer links between the EU 2020 strategy and the european semester and for a better balancing between real and financial economy we are pressing to start the new legislative cycle with a clear strategic commitment to completing the single market ICT and digital technologies are powerful tools to modernize our economies while creating highly qualified jobs on july 8 and 9 italy hosted high level conference digital venis with participation of important political and business leaders this conference sent out the clear message that boosting competitiveness in europe could be achieved only by developing the digital agenda completing the digital single market and integrating it in the EU 2020 strategy the italian presidency is working hard on the political framework for climate and energy for 2030 in order to agree a new common position at the october european council now moving the second objective moving europe closer to its citizens the strategic agenda for EU underlines that the may 2014 european elections open a new legislative cycle this moment of political renewal comes precisely as our countries emerge from years of economic crisis and as public disenchantment with politics has grown it is the right time to set out what we want the union to focus on and how we want it to function italy entirely and wholeheartedly subscribes to these words and considers the second set of priorities as the core of our presidency it might articulate as follows a more effective mode of operating for the EU institutions a common policy for immigration and asylum a better management of the EU borders strengthening european judicial cooperation protection of fundamental human rights in teralia the principle of non-discrimination and gender equality our main objective is to minimize the perceived gap between european citizens and new institutions in order to push for a better and more democratic europe the EU should be deeply rooted in the principles of attribution subsidiarity and proportionality as a consequence it should be less intrusive in all the those sectors that could be better dealt with at national regional or local level this is why since august the italian presidency has been promoting at the general affairs council a common reflection on how to effectively reform the working methods of the EU institutions within the council we are looking at issues like subsidiarity and proportionality principles the relationship between euro ins and euro outs the role of national parliaments how to assure the effective and complete implementation of european council decisions and a more decisive push towards the simplification of EU rules now coming to the rights a stronger role of the EU in the Mediterranean is paramount in order to prevent new tragedies in the Mediterranean last july the justice and home affairs informal council recognise that more solidarity among EU member states is needed and that the borders of each member states are to be considered as a EU border we have also appreciated the political endorsement to the start of a new joint maritime patrolling operation as of next november 1 tryton operation which will be led under the edges of a strengthened front-ex agency as regards human rights and fundamental freedoms non-discrimination and gender equality the italian presidency is at the forefront in our view all these principles represent the cornerstone of european construction with this in mind the italian presidency has relaunched the negotiation on the scheme of directive on non-discrimination and important progress has been registered on the directive designed to improve the gender balance in europe's company boardrooms furthermore the italian presidency will host in rome next october 23 and 24 the conference on the Beijing platform for action of the world conference on women and in november italy will inaugurate a week of rights to assess strategies targeting discrimination in europe now the third last priority stronger and global role for european foreign policy priorities italy is convinced that only a stronger position of the u on the global stage may help us to get out the economic crisis at the same time economic growth has to be based on our shared european values thus becoming a new model at international level last july the informal justice and home affairs council provided a follow-up to the result of the Mediterranean task force and has stressed the key role of a closer integration between the external and internal dimension of migratory policies by strengthening the dialogue with third countries of origin and transit of migrants at the end of november the italian presidency has scheduled three ministerial meetings devoted to migratory issues the fourth euro african ministerial conference with the participation of northwest african countries on migrations and development in the framework of the rabat process the joint conference of foreign and interior ministers the first ministerial conference of the cartoon process with eastern africa countries all these events will highlight the killing between migrations and development as well as the key role of the relation between migrations security and trafficking of human beings italy also encourages the regional dimension of the u neighborhood policy and supports the so called amici initiative a southern mediterranean investment coordination initiative which aims at rationalising european aid to the southern regions italian presidency strongly supports also the ongoing negotiations on t-tip the transatlantic trade and investment partnership since trade and investment foreign investments are an integral part of our strategy for the external action as regards the comprehensive economic and trade agreement with canada the debates promoted during the italian presidency have resulted in the conclusion of the negotiations in august and to the presentation of the agreement at the u canada summit last september 25th we also are finalising partnership agreements with western africa countries italy fully fully supports the high representative for foreign security policy for a constant and coherent commitment with the asian pacific partners on all global and regional challenges in mid october the euro asia region will be at the center of attention not only at the asem summit which will be hosted in milan on 16 17 october but also on the occasion of a number of other related events business forums civil society meetings cultural events this would be a unique opportunity to promote growth and development of the two regions and reinforce the dialogue on political and economic cooperation as well as social and cultural exchanges and finally let me just mention that we will host in milan expo 2015 from may 2015 to october 2015 we the italian presidency is now paying special attention to the issue of sustainable development and during the formal councils of agriculture the main focus was the issue of food security and the possible positive signage synergies with the expo's milano 2015 whose theme will be feeding the planet energy for life and this madame convener concludes my presentation thank you for your attention thank you very much a very very comprehensive work on going there can i just to make the reinforce the point that the mobile phone shouldn't be used in the committee room because they interfere with broadcasting and and i don't think that they're broadcasting people like the buzz in their ears when the phones are are being used if i could just impress on people to do that ambassador you mentioned many many priorities and focus here and one of the the focus that we have in scotland is with youth unemployment and i'm sure there's a number of my committee colleagues will go into that but at the beginning of your contribution you mentioned the meeting in milan yesterday and i was we were looking to try and have an update on that and we couldn't find anything concrete yet but i don't know whether you're in a position to give this committee an update on the purpose of the meeting yesterday and maybe some of the outcomes well in the meeting the purpose of the meeting was taking stock of the progress in implementing the youth employment initiative it was not a real it was not the summit was more a conference at high level because we don't yet have the the final data of the interim report which is expected on the implementation of the youth employment initiative so it was a more theoretical let's say talk staking of of of the experience so far gathered um i think that there was some um in spite of the fact that was not major decisions were not expected some movement was registered i an interesting movement i would say because the you know that the the youth employment initiative was launched front loading funds that had already been allocated in and the budget for a total of six six billion euros the actually to apply to all young and employed europeans the initiative you would i think if i my if my recollection is correct you would need around 23 billion euros so you we are short of 17 billion euros the way to fill this gap is to use of course national resources and also to redirect structural funds the the the the social fund for example and now this poses a problem a challenge for many european countries because if you want to match the european funds with national funds then you have to um you risk to uh over over uh overtake your limits the the growth and stability impacts limits and um the movement from what i've been told is that uh there's been a less less strong less marked division between those more uh fiscal uh orthodox countries and those countries will say we want to respect the goals but we need some uh a degree of flexibility because if we have to match the funds for the european youth initiative then maybe you should not consider those funds as part of the um of the deficit or you should i mean give a special consideration i mean of course there wasn't it didn't come out a solution but uh i'm told that debate was very constructive so there is a comprehension a general comprehension now that if we want these programmes to work and we need to complement the european funds with national funds uh a degree of flexibility has to be considered um it's it's always a tricky tricky one to balance i many many years ago i used to run a structural funded project and it was difficult enough to to get your match funders so i can see where maybe they concerned would would would come in that um i'm happy to open to i think alex rowley's got um on this theme wants to pick up from your alex thank you very much and thank you for coming along this morning ambassador does that not raise the issue in terms of looking forward and coming out of recession the the the difficulty between looking at growth and enforcing austerity measures on countries and we've seen it with the the uk economy and we've had you know austerity measures that have impacted on public services on jobs instead of reducing the date our date has actually continued to rise so where is the balance between between austerity and achieving economic growth well the um the line that has been taken by the italian government is it's quite clear we are going to respect all the parameters all the obligations so for example we we will be we'll be keeping our budget below our deficit below the three percent ceiling and this we are going to do to have the uh credibility to have the possibility of saying that those rules should maybe reconsidered uh in a more flexible way but we think that if we did not respected the present obligations uh there would be a credibility issue i mean that there are some countries particularly the southern periphery of of europe that they are reluctant to respect obligations so we say well at the moment we are going to respect obligation and this is costing us three uh deep recession we are still in recession now um but uh on the same time we'll give us the moral authority to say we should maybe reconsider some parameters that were set in a different europe in a different conditions um take for example i apart from but you know that then we added third constraints with the fiscal compact the fiscal compact uh italy has a balanced budget uh because we are we have been running a primary surplus for the last 20 years and and we we have always been below three percent but we should go do more because we still we have the legacy of the past we have a huge debt which is now 132 percent of the gdp this huge debt we we manage because while other countries double their deficit their debt sorry we we went from 124 25 to 132 so during the the recession so it was a marginal increase due also to the fact that italy contributed with 17 percent to all the rescue programs of other southern periphery countries and setting up of dsm as well but anyway uh the fiscal compact would say that as of next year you should reduce by one tenth your debt gdp ratio uh this would um would mean today a a fiscal adjustment equivalent to four percent four um percentage points of gdp so a huge adjustment but when the fiscal compact was conceived this process of reduction of debt would have amounted would have translated into a uh not 0.5 percent of readjustment why because uh the it was calculated at the time that we would have two percent inflation and 1.5 growth so actually with that 3.5 you would be left only with uh uh not 0.5 percent of adjustment to reduce the debt accordingly to the fiscal compact but now if we we have deflation there is no growth so what was uh not 0.5 percent is four percent so maybe uh those all these figures should be adjusted to the changing economic reality but again it's a matter of credibility so uh we are going on to respect them but we make the case that probably they should be reconsidered okay thank you can i pick up a a different issue you talked about the transatlantic trade and investment partnership t-tap in in scotland i think indeed across the uk there is concern of what the implications of the agreement would be particularly on the national health service um and and there is i think a strong body opinion um that the national health service within scotland and within the uk should not be um in any way included within within any agreement if an agreement is reached what would be your view on that um well to my knowledge the of course this implies that in the agreement you have the health the private sector somehow covered by the agreement uh to my knowledge well here in scotland you should be quite quite safe from that point of view because the private sector is a very very small role played here but nevertheless i mean i think that in this this fields if particular concerns can be taken to consideration uh italy has a different concern is the protection of geographic origin of products for example uh france is the cultural exception but the way forward i think is to consider to take into consideration all the local national concerns but without without going as far as a so-called carving out that you exclude completely that sector from the agreement because then this is the way to empty the agreement because everyone will just take a chunk out and put it aside so i think the agreement has to remain comprehensive but each party can uh ask legitimately some guarantee on specific issues of concerns and i think that they can be fairly easily arranged those guarantees thank you very much clear adamson good morning yeah excellent say but uh welcome to our committee this morning hi um welcome to your introductory remarks very very comprehensive setting out the priorities um i was particularly struck by your commitment to human rights of great concern to this committee and i welcome the fact that you mentioned the gender balance and the european boards i should say i mentioned already at committee this morning a little bit of disappointing in the commissioners not having a gender balance in the current cohort i don't expect you to respond to that though just a comment at the moment um the area i would like to to examine further with you um and one of very great concern to us facing a UK election next year with a rise in the polls and in representation of of urophobic parties and the fact that the UK could be facing an in-out referendum on Europe. Scotland traditionally has has been much more urophile and indeed our Conservative member who's not here today is a urophile himself perhaps somewhat unique in his party at the moment but Scotland definitely has a different attitude to Europe so given that we're facing in a very short time the general election could you give us some practical examples of what help could be given in terms of of your priority with european citizens confidence and engaging with their citizens and the opportunity to explain to them what the benefits of of european membership are at this stage well yes first of all on the the gender balance as you know the presidency has no role in forming the new commission so there's if any blame there is should be put at the at the feet of Jacqueline's boss Mr Yung but I guess that was it is honestly it's very difficult you have so many balances to to strike the north south east west smaller bigger countries left right wing parties and then of course well I think that it is a shame that gender balance was not on the top of the priority it was just one of the different and because I'm I'm convinced that I have I always applied the gender balance within my the offices of which I've been having responsibilities along my career and always the the best colleagues I had were always ladies so I um I was the first when I was chief of staff principal private secretary the minutes of foreign affairs I was the first one who who got a gender balance in the private office and also accepted there were one or two who was in we're going to have a maternity leave and that was considered a big scandal because you normally don't take a lady who's will will disappear for a couple of months in a very tough jobs but I I took the risk and I think I was rewarded because it worked perfectly well she was even working from home being grateful for having been included in this office anyway now to the most difficult issue of how to counter populace in a europhobic movements in in Europe I think that the you can do many things regarding the institutions role of European parliament national parliament but I think the main issue is getting Europe to do what it is important for European citizens so if we can show that Europe is playing a concrete positive role in fostering growth and creating jobs we are giving an answer to the demand of security actually ours what do our citizens ask institutions security you have an economic security growth and jobs and you have the more traditional security the borders migrations terrorism threats and all that so the effort should be now to to get Europe back to the core business of responding to the demands coming from from the citizens we have been discussing for too long on austerity versus flexibility and you know all this the system how should we select the European the president of European commission that has been the centre of our debate now at the centre of our debate is we have to find a way to give to put role of Europe in a condition to give a real contribution to growth and job creation thank you very much Willie Coffey thank you very much convener and good morning ambassador I wonder if I could carry on with the theme that my colleague Claire Adamson raised there you mentioned at least three priorities one being job friendly second being closer to European citizens and thirdly strengthening the role for the European Union and foreign policy I think we could argue that the second priority bringing Europe closer to its citizens could be argued to be one of the most important because of the reasons that you've mentioned there the rise of Europhobic parties throughout the European Union now Italy as we know is a founding member of the European Union and has held in great respect in Scotland for the role that your country has played over many many years and I certainly see the role that Italy can play in reaching out to citizens within the European Union is very strong and very important but how do you think we can connect more directly with the citizen on the ground if you look at the distance between a citizen and the institutions of their own national parliament or with European Union it's a greater distance I think isn't it between the ordinary citizen and the European Union institutions how can we bridge that gap bring the European Union institutions closer to ordinary citizens so that they understand it what's going on there and the benefits of what the European Union can deliver for ordinary people well I think that the the answer is in the the reform of the European Union we should show that we are the the European political class has understood that there is such a gap and for example if you manage to give some concrete substance to the principle of attribution subsidiarity and proportionality you are I think creating a better connection between the different layers of governance in Europe the European the national the local and so on um we have again this is um I think too many times we have had meetings in Europe where at the end you end up having a talk shop and you speak about subsidiarity proportionality and you don't really get to uh to the draw board and and and design something concrete it just thinks that you think that they should be done something but there is no project now the I think again and this is the connection with what I was saying before economic crisis recession unemployment they are all helping us to focus our minds and see take youth and employment initiative for example uh the it has been calculated that as I was saying the cost would be 23 billion euros but the absent I mean if you don't apply if you don't make it real the cost has been calculated to 153 billion because all the benefits are paid the um less revenue that you get from people's not they are not working and so on so it makes economic sense to to make these initiatives real real and to make them real you you need all the layers to work together so I why should this work now that hasn't worked for the last 20 years because I think that citizens are really fed up and people is sensing in my country people you can sense really that people won't change and they are convinced that we need to change if we want to prostitute secure a future for ourselves and our children and and this global focusing of mind I think can can make the difference and help bridging the gap do you see a role for perhaps technology digital technology to be able to reach out to ordinary citizens because what I see living in Scotland living in the United Kingdom is that the media the newspaper media in the UK in particular is very hostile to Europe and the population picked this up and it leads to some of the circumstances that you've mentioned there so can you see a role for digital technology to to reach out to ordinary citizens in Europe to provide a counterbalancing positive message for citizens within the union I think so because this is I mean you can see this also at national local level that you can use ICT to to reach out to to your citizens you can make all administrative judicial processes quicker more transparent using ICT and ICT is one of the three major legs of the connecting Europe project you know you have transport you have energy and you have ICT so for again if you if we manage for example also to to make as quickly as possible the connecting Europe project reality and you have better transport better connectivity at transport level then you have energy and you have interconnection so you have more security and and certainly less expensive energy for citizens and and business as well and finally ICT ICT can make the political the the polity work better in Europe in general and can also complement a very important part of the single market which is the e-commerce this is I think it would be important that we the future of commerce is I think it's e-commerce now we have 28 different markets we should make a single market and people would then be able to acquire goods and services at lower prices and you could show you could show easily that there is a good side there's not only the negative side of Europe there is a good side the problem that of course is always easy to look at the this is what the press normally does they look at the negative news not the positive news so they should be also an effort but through ICT this effort of putting shedding some light on the positive side of Europe could certainly achieve more easily I think very encouraging of a time for just one more very brief question just on on Italy's priorities again and the digital single market that we're about to to go into there does Italy see any priorities in trying to flatten out the costs of mobile telephone charges throughout the European Union because they vary quite considerably is there any move perhaps from the Italian Government to do some work on that yes we have been proposing to abolish roaming around Europe for example and the idea of completing you know that it's oddly enough we managed to create a single market for goods relatively quickly and then what was more modern in a way was the service sector that should have come first it's lagging behind and there are if I can for one time coming from the south of Europe just playing the part of the first of the class we have been opening up completely our service industry there are countries that you would not suspect such as Germany that haven't opened up the service industry and they I think they should cite high time that they opened up the service sector because if you open up in Germany you have a an invitation effect I mean of course all the the countries are normally follow the German line they would certainly be feel obliged to open up as well and then they would have to invest because their service sector not being open by definition is not efficient so they should invest in their service sector they would create opportunities for other countries because they could export services there but at the same time they would as I said they would invest in their own market and they would create demand and and and foster promote growth at German level first and then at the European level and this would be a virtuous way to a virtuous stimulus would not be just deficit spending but would be productive investment that would be in the in a lighted self interest for the for Germany itself so I really think that and and the example that you made mobile phones is it's very important because maybe it's less easy to explain to people that if we open up the service sector then you have cheaper insurance policies and you have a better service in the insurance sector which is very very close in many countries if you speak of mobile phones you can have a popular pressure say well I want to spend less I want I don't want to pay roaming when I go on holiday in Spain or Greece and why should I pay these outrageous bills if I know that I know in the states they pay one tenth of that well in the states mobile phones don't work very well but it's another story thank you very much thank you thank you your final question for today Rod Campbell I've got three separate questions if I can first question is in relation to migration obviously pressures on the European Union from migration from outside and indeed obviously the important issue of human trafficking you referred to the three ministerial meetings kin kin is there is there a plan in the European Union of what is what's the what really what is the plan where is the where are these discussions going what's the objective I we wish there were a clear plan the truth is to be to be honest with you is that we have been left quite alone to face this tragedy we had 100 000 migrants arriving on Sicilian shores only this year and to face this we have an agency with limited means frontex so that we have we had to create a national program called marinostrum to rescue all those migrants that have been drowning by a thousand in the Mediterranean sea we are pressing to to persuade the European Union that there is an external border which is of common interest and should be managed at a common level this means that you should have not just the italian navy patrolling the and in fact a progress is this new triton operation where for the first time we are not the italian navy is not left alone in tackling this this issue coping with this this potential continuous tragedy but then we should also press we are working together on the development aid of course the the what happens in the Mediterranean is the last phase of a process which starts in sub-Saharan countries where you have migrants desperate they cross the desert they get to the Mediterranean shores and they they jump on on the first boat to try to to reach Sicily and then this people trafficking in human beings they willingly they they use boats that will not be able to to reach their destination that they will probably sunk a sink in the in the Mediterranean sea because then they just disappear the leave the migrants there and the migrants are taken on board and then brought to centers in Lampedusa or Sicily or Calabria and the southern regions of Italy so you you have to work with the countries of origin the Rabat process for example to try to better coordinate aid to create economic opportunities jobs in in in those countries that can discourage these people to leave their homes in in looking for a better future then you have the transit countries Libya Tunisia Algeria and there you should persuade and it's needed the the whole european pressure it is it is not enough of course to persuade these countries to have agreements with the commission of refugee UN refugee commission so that you can create centers there on the shore in Tunisia Libya where these people arrive and there you can maybe assist with european funds you can assist these people and try to send them back to their homes while hope in the meantime hopefully the development aid will have created opportunities for them and then you can distinguish the economic migrants from refugees coming from Syria from the areas of war and their application could be dealt with there in Libya Tunisia and they could then receive possibly an asylum and they could travel normally safely to the country who's going to receive them so you see it's a whole you have the three country of origin where you have to work together for creating opportunities then you have the country of transit where you should create centers for migrants there and then you have the patrolling of Mediterranean sea there is it's not possible that just one country with occasional help of Malta or or Greece can cope with such a big issue so we are pressing on the other partners to make this a european priorities and all um i um all political oppression is welcome to create awareness of the scale of the phenomenon thank you ambassador you've mentioned Syria there briefly which is my next point um isis Syria the problems there to what extent is Italy and its its rollers press into the at the moment kind of taking a lead in that issue or is that not really registering on the radar well you see there that the lead has been taken by the united states so we are having a complementary role a european level it's a very national this is it's a typical case where it's difficult to have a single foreign policy you have different national policies we as as far as Italy is concerned we support the the u us action and we are materially not supporting we politically support them in Syria we support them and other with other european partners in iraq or the strikes in iraq we are not at the moment taking part in strikes but we do refuelling we do humanitarian aid we do training but we are not averse to if there is a general european participation we would be considering also military strikes in iraq in this phase and finally just a point of clarification we're talking about titip earlier on were you suggesting that in the uk because the nhs is predominantly in the public sector we we shouldn't have concerns about the impact on the health service here obviously the nhs south of the border has increasing elements of the private sector but i mean we may have picked that up wrong or i may have picked that up wrong could you just clarify that point well it's not for me to describe what is the state of the art of your health service i i know that here in england there is some a greater role of the private sector but i think it's still marginal and i from what i gather this parliament has competence on the health sector so i think that you have already control of the health sector and it's up to you to guarantee to your citizens and and protect their rights you are lucky enough to have this beautiful parliament you will be certainly be able to protect your citizens rights okay on that note can i thank you very much ambassador we've explored many areas this morning as you can see we have a very active committee who takes great pride in the role that they play on the committee but on behalf of the committee this morning can i formally say thank you very much and to all involved and thank you for your lovely concert last night we all very much enjoyed it and i'm going to close the session now but can i remind colleagues to stay behind for the official photograph with the ambassador thank you