 I'm Ed Baker. Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Channel, or ARC. ARC is a TV show that's dedicated to enhancing the public's information, the public's knowledge, specifically regarding people with substance use disorder, their treatment, and their recovery. The ultimate goal is to increase compassion and inclusion for this specific population. And in a nutshell, really, to save lives, it's that simple and straightforward. Today's show is remarkable. Today's show is about what's called Recovery-Friendly Workplaces, the most recent innovation, science-based innovation that meets people with substance use disorder where they are and encourages them and supports them on their road to recovery. I'm going to begin with this one guest. The most important guest is Barbara Rabtoi. Barbara Rabtoi is a person with lived experience of addiction, lived experience of recovery, and lived experience of being employed in a recovery-friendly workplace. My team, my four members of my panel, then we'll go on to discuss Barbara's experience and their experience in the field. In order, I'd like to introduce my team. My team is Tammy Bushel, who is the Director of Human Resources at Edland Company. Ron Stankovich, who is the Community Outreach Director at Dominion Diagnostics. Lisa Lord, who is the Director of Workforce Programs at Recovery Vermont. And Mickey Wiles, who is the CEO and the founder of Working Fields. So let's begin. We'll begin now with Barbara's story. Barbara is a person with the lived experience of addiction, lived experience of recovery. And she is also involved in what's known as a recovery-friendly workplace. And that will be the topic of our show today. So Barbara, when we talk leading into this part, this interview, one of the things that you said was important to you was to get a summary of your addiction and its consequences. So I guess we can just start right off there. Would you like to do that? Yeah, that's fine. My addiction started about 11 and 1 1⁄2 years ago. After I got into a car accident, I ended up getting addicted to pills. The addiction of that just led to heroin. Then after that was back and forth between crack and alcohol. When I finally went to Yale 2 and 1⁄2 years ago, I ended up getting clean. And I've been clean since then. Beautiful. Beautiful. So when you went into prison, you began abstaining from drugs. And then you came, when did you come out of prison? September 9th of 2019. So you came out of prison September 9th of 2019, and you've been clean or drug-free ever since? Correct. That's really something. Congratulations. Congratulations. That is a wonderful accomplishment. And I understand that because I'm a person in recovery too. And in the beginning, you count the days, then you count the months, then you start counting the years, and then it becomes a way of life. Is it a way of life for you now? Yes, it is. I can't imagine my life being like it used to be. I have way too much going for me now. Beautiful. Beautiful. One of the questions that you wanted me to ask you was the greatest question ever. Why is your sobriety so important to you? Because I am finally able to pay my bills. I'm able to pay my rent. I'm able to take care of my animal. I'm able to go buy myself stuff. Life is much better like this. Couldn't have been better said. Life is much better like this, sure is. Did I cut you off there? Was there something else you wanted to add? No, you're good. OK, all right. So let's just focus one second on that, taking care of your animal part. You want to talk a little bit about Chuckie? Chuckie is my main coon cat. He's about a year old. I just got all his vaccines, which cost me about $100. I just got him neutered and microchipped, and that's about a $400 bill. During my addiction, there's no way I could have afforded this. Now that I don't have an addiction anymore, well, I do. But I'll always have that addiction. But now that I'm not actively using anymore, I can afford to take care of my animal as well. He is my kid. And that's really what you want to do, isn't it? It is. Yeah, so many times we, with addiction, we're prevented from doing the thing is we really want to do down deep inside. We can't do them because the addiction has us. And when we're free from the addiction, we finally get to be the people we can be, like the best people we can be. So I understand that, and I identify with that. Now, I understand that you were on a Social Security, SSDI, and you made a transition from Social Security to employment. And that's when you began at Westminster Cracker Company. Is that the name of the place that you work? Westminster Cracker Factory. Westminster Cracker Factory. And one of the things that's happened since then that's coming up very, very soon is that you are going to convert from being an employee under the umbrella of working fields to a full-time regular employee at Westminster Cracker Factory. Is that true? That is correct. I couldn't be more excited. Yeah, can you talk a little bit about that and how that accomplishment feels to you? Well, I was in a car accident back in 2006. And I was on disability for about 10 years. My disability just ended in November. And I said, OK, I have to make up this money. So I came to working fields, which is a great temp agency. They were able to help me get a job. I worked at this job since about December. And now I'm converting full-time to the company. I love it. And doesn't that say a lot about you? That in a very short period of time with some support from working fields, and we'll go into that. But in a very short period of time with some support from working fields, the management of the company noticed and said, OK, Barbara, we want you to work here. You are a good employee. Is that the case? Yes, it is. Actually, my supervisor has been wanting me to be a full-time employee since like two weeks after I started. That's really good. She says she saw right away, we got to get this one working here. Don't let her find any jobs anywhere else, right? Yes. How does that feel to you? What does that feel like to you? Really good. It's actually like amazing. Like I can just see the change in myself and it just keeps getting better and better each day. Yeah, beautiful. So I mean, we call it self-esteem, self-worth. Is that how you relate to it? Like the way you feel about yourself down deep inside, you're feeling good. Yes, I have a lot more self-esteem, a lot more self-confidence. I actually feel like I have a purpose now that I have a job. I'm actually an essential worker because we make crackers and actually a good feeling. So I mean, what more can you ask for? When you look for an example of someone succeeding at a workplace, someone with a history of addiction, someone in early recovery, succeeding with the support of professionals around her and benefiting from it, what more can you ask for? I'd like to go to Mickey Wiles. Mickey Wiles, you're the person that's set up working fields. You're the person that you have staff working directly with Barbara. You care to make some comments on what we just saw, what we just witnessed? Oh, you're new. Thanks, Ed. What we just witnessed is a really great example of an individual who's had some issues in their life, was in early recovery, and needed the support placed around her to give her a really good chance of success. A lot of people talk about relapse as being part of recovery, or people who come out of incarceration that recidivism is sometimes part of the journey. Well, it really doesn't have to be. And with proper support around somebody, of course, the individual has to have a desire for that and a desire to get better. But with that, and then given the proper support, they just have such a much better chance of success. And Barbara is a great example of that. You can see in the brief discussion that you had with her that 10 years of disability and being out of the workforce, and not really being able to do the things that she wanted to do, she talked about the struggle she had paying bills, and being able to do things she wanted to do in life. Well, by moving into a position of employment, employment not only provided her the financial resources that helped her out greatly, as she talked about, but you saw her face light up when she talked about the self-esteem and the self-worth and her supervisor wanting her to hire her two weeks into the job. The feeling, you could just see that come out of her. And that's really, it's just so powerful to be able to have that and to have that support. So it's a great example of individuals who want to be successful and then are willing to take the support when it's offered to them. Thank you. Thank you, Mickey. And you know, the point at which that support is offered is such a crucial point. I want to read something. And the second is the commentary from the American Society of Addiction Medicine on its definition of addiction, a commentary that they make. And then I want to go over to Tammy and have Tammy talk a little bit about what happens at Edmond. But first, this is a comment from the American Society of Addiction Medicine in 2019 on their revised definition of addiction. And I think it speaks to exactly what you've created, Mickey, that moment that you're intervening with people. And what ASAM says is, a lack of healthy social supports and limited prospects for employment or stable housing can exert significant pressure on the brain circuitry of individuals at risk for addiction. These factors influence the depth of vulnerability and can present significant barriers to recovery unless addressed. So you have a major medical organization specifically focused on addiction, recognizing that barriers to employment can stress brain circuitry and cause people to be incapable of achieving resilience or recovery. So medical science is bearing this out now. It's no longer just people in the fields talking about it because we know it. It's medical science bearing it out. And that to me is the beauty of what you've done, what this team has done, what this team is doing, meeting people with addiction, where they really are, based in science, but equally important, fueled, really fueled by compassion for them. So thank you. Tammy, would you like to comment a little bit about what happens at Edlin? Sure, Ed. So at Edlin, we're a manufacturer and we're known as a second chance employer or many chance employer. As I've always said, you've heard me say it numerous times, people's past is their past. Doesn't define who they are today or who they will be in the future. And so when people come in for interviews, it's not a traditional interview. It is not a, I'm gonna sit and draw question after question to the candidate. It's more of a round table discussion. I just wanna get to know you. I wanna have an open and honest discussion. And usually when we lay the groundwork before the actual interview takes place and we've talked to them a little bit either on the phone or when they first come in, it's a, you know, this is a judgment free zone. I don't care what's happened in the past. Just tell me about where you are now and what's your desire and where do you wanna go? And then as we go through the interview process, I think people start to feel comfortable and they start to share, not necessarily their entire story, but pieces and parts. And then when they realize that we have recovery coaches or a recovery coach, another employee on staff as well as myself, that I think helps put them at ease. And so they're able to understand that we're really there to support them. And we try to do so by being a much more compassionate and flexible employer, right? So years ago, Edlin used to be very rigid. You know, you had to start at 6 a.m. and you had to take break at this time and had to go home at this time and you couldn't leave your station. And now it's more of a, tell us what's gonna work for you. If you need to go to a meeting, we're okay with that. If you want to somebody here because you're really having a bad day, we're okay with that. We set up space for them. So just trying to be much more compassionate, human. They understand about drug recovery. They actually have people that are in recovery themselves. And they hire people who really can't get jobs anywhere else because of addiction and being in trouble with that. Westminster will hire you and they'll help keep your life on track. I'm just so impressed by that. Bravo to that company. I just really think that's so important. So in other words, if I'm working there and I'm having a hard time with something, you know, maybe a friend of mine texted me and said, you know, I've got this or I've got that. And all of a sudden I'm kind of just thinking about whatever drug it is. I can maybe call my, go to my manager and say, hey, listen, I need to call my recovery coach. I need a few minutes. Oh yeah, he would let you. Yeah, yeah. That's really something. That's really something. My supervisor is amazing. Beautiful. So you don't feel like you really have to be ashamed or have a secret or you're hiding anything from anybody. You could be yourself. Yeah. My past is my past. All I look forward to is a new me in the future. Oh, I like that so much. And don't you have, don't they have like a recovery coach that is there to kind of help you or that you can get to if you need to to help you with problems you might be having either related to the job or not related to the job. Is that true? At working fields, they do. And you have access to that person? Yes, I do. Anytime I need to call them. Has that been a good relationship for you? Has that been an important relationship to you? Yes, actually it has. Good, good. Yeah, that's so beautiful. And Barbara talks a little bit about that. She talks about not having to feel that she has a secret, not having to feel that she's hiding something, being able to go to her manager and say, you know, I need to call my recovery coach and the manager kind of being more than open to that, supporting that. A whole different setting, a whole different milieu than we're used to in employment settings. I know in the past, you know, most employment settings, you know, if you came forward either accidentally and said you had a substance use disorder, that there was a high likelihood if you're being punished for that or penalized for that somehow. And it was even written into the personnel policy. So there really is a change of foot today. You know, you mentioned the recovery coaching and I'd like to go there now with Lisa, please. You know, how does recovery coaching or recovery, if I'm not mistaken, recovery coaches in Vermont come through your institution and you're active in developing and certifying recovery coaches. So how does these recovery coaches fit into recovery support of a recovery friendly workplaces? So the recovery coaches, yes, Recovery Vermont has the Recovery Coach Academy where we train people to be recovery coaches. And recovery coaches are support people for a recovery journey. And they can be accessed at all stages of a recovery journey, including when it's just a thought of recovery. And so the way that they, in an employment specific manner, the recovery coaches can be accessed through some organizations like TAMI's at Edland where they have a recovery coach on staff. Some organizations have recovery coaches that they work with through a local recovery center. We have 12 recovery centers in the state and they all have recovery coaches. So some organizations work directly with those recovery centers so that when they have an employee, or maybe it's the employer, when someone needs a recovery coach, they can easily access one through the recovery centers. So it seems like there's kind of like a wrap around kind of system becoming more prevalent in Vermont. Around people in recovery. We have recovery centers with recovery coaches. We have recovery friendly workplaces. We have recovery coaches in emergency departments, is that true? Yes. And are they also working with some of the police departments? We have recovery coaches working with law enforcement, is that true? Yes, so each of the recovery centers, they're independent nonprofits. And so they're all spearheading some of their own based on their specific community's needs. We started with an emergency department program for recovery coaches. It was a few years ago and we started it as a pilot program in three medical centers and it's now expanded throughout the state. And it is proven through data to be tremendously impactful and effective. And there was a second piece of that question that you asked. Oh, law enforcement. Law enforcement, yeah. Yes, yes, some of the recovery centers have just determined that in their communities, recovery coaches in corrections are absolutely needed and Rutland in particular is doing absolutely unbelievable things with corrections and they're just seeing tremendous benefit with that connection between recovery resources, recovery coaches and the correctional facilities. And these are the places where there's a lot of contact in hospitals, law enforcement and work settings between the powers that be and people with substance use disorder. And over the past, up until recently, those contacts have largely been characterized by stigma and punitive response. And stigma and punitive response drives people deeper into the darkness and deeper into the shadows. They certainly don't come out and ask for more of that like they will with support and help. So this is what's truly so encouraging about what's happening today in Vermont. And we're kind of a leading state in this that we seem to be recognizing that there are moments of opportunity where we can develop a systemic interventions to reach out and embrace people with substance use disorder. The same way as we would reach out, embrace someone with any other medical disease. If we came across someone with a disease and they needed help, we would help them. We would call 911. We would put them in our car and take them to the hospital. We would do something for them. That's just the way humans are built. Well, we're finally beginning to break stigma down to the point where we're beginning to respond to people with substance use disorder in this manner. And that it is so encouraging to say. You know, Ron, maybe can you talk a little bit about some of the research that you were involved in that targeted or uncovered that there was great opportunity in the employment setting to work with people with substance use disorder? Oh, absolutely, Ed. Tammy was with me in this endeavor through the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance. We were part of the working recovery action team. We received a grant from GE Healthcare to support individuals and employers to find higher and sustain a workforce of individuals in recovery. And the first place that we thought it would be best to start was the Chamber of Commerce. And we created a survey and we had an impressive 142 respondents. These were individuals from 142 different HR departments representing Chittenden County businesses. And some of our questions were very basic, but one of them was pretty specific. Would you be willing to hire someone in recovery? And one of the categories really lent credibility to the fact that we had an opportunity to do something that was not only good, but provided a service. You have the outliers, those who were very willing to hire, you had those who were very opposed. And you're gonna have that with any type of initiative, any type of social program, I mean, anything really, but what really stuck out to us is that 29% nearly a third of folks were neutral. And they said, I just don't know enough about it. So we had an audience that was ready for information and to be educated. And one of our follow-up questions was if you had an individual who was actively engaged in a substance use disorder or someone in recovery who may need additional support, did you know of or how to access services and resources? 44% said no. And with Tammy's help and a large group of us, we began to compile research. What would be supportive of an employer who once they did have an employee on site, how best to support them? How best to sustain their employment as well as do the right thing, which is this is your employee, it's part of your work family. Just as we help our sons and our daughters and our parents and our brothers and sisters, it was having the information at hand directly, knowing where to go and who to contact. It wasn't about someone like Tammy having all of the knowledge and all of the resources, but it was about providing folks like Tammy with the resources and who to go to for support. And it really has taken off from there, Lisa and Peter Espenshade and others at Recovery Vermont have now taken the lead on Vermont's Recovery Friendly Workplace Initiative. Nice, thank you. Thank you Ron, that's such an important piece of research in the evolution of this movement. I often think about it that, I think it was the Nixon administration that declared that drugs, people who use drugs and drugs are the number one public enemy. And ever since, the 70s, the American people, the American culture has been bombarded with stigma, reinforcing concepts, language, beliefs, and you really can't blame people, you know? I mean, how many people have been born into a culture that's dominated by stigma? So, we learn what we're taught and we've been taught the wrong thing. It's akin to white supremacy. It's the same thing where we're born into a culture that sees a certain population in a certain way that has nothing to do with reality, it's stigma. And one of the things that's happening now and you're all leaders in it, and I'd like to go to that next is we're reeducating the public based in science, based in compassion. And what I find in my travels is that the public is responsive to it. The public is thirsty for it. The public wants to feel compassion. The public feels uneasy with stigma. And when we reach them, they're willing to unlearn stigma. So I'd like to, I like the panelists now to talk about how are you going about reeducating people specifically in the workforce? What are some of the inputs that you have based in science to teach them about people with addiction, treatment and recovery and that people are so valuable and so have so much potential? Lisa, do you wanna start out with that? I think you had some ideas about that. Sure thing, Ed, thank you. So as you mentioned, there's a lot of stigma around substance use disorder and people experiencing substance use disorder or with a history of substance use disorder, they've been a stigmatized and marginalized group and so ultimately it really is about inclusion. A lot of businesses right now are focused on inclusion as they should be and as is overdue which is probably a conversation for a whole different show but really focusing on inclusion. And that is that there are a couple of pieces to that. One of those is really about encouraging curiosity and compassion, bringing humanity back into working with other people, working with humans. So really getting to the heart of getting to know people and who they are individually. In terms of substance use disorder, some of it is education. We know that substance use disorder is a disease and the general public has gotten a message that it's a moral failing and we know that's not the case but that's kind of embedded in the psyches of a lot of people. So helping people to unlearn and be curious about what really is substance use disorder and sharing stories like Barbara's, her supervisor, for example, had an experience after only two weeks wanting Barbara to be full-time, right? So I don't know what Barbara's supervisor was thinking before she met Barbara. I don't actually, I don't know her supervisor's pronouns but there's an experience that Barbara's supervisor had. After only two weeks of knowing Barbara, she realized, I need this person. How many employers in Vermont? I go to HR meetings and something I constantly hear is we can't find people. Well, here's Barbara and Barbara's not the only one. Mickey's got a whole giant list of people, right? Who are ready and eager and wanna show up and do a great job at work. So helping to share stories, helping to encourage compassion and also some of that education involves shifting language. There is a lot of language that has been used to describe substance use disorder that is very stigmatizing. So helping people expand their vocabulary and use more compassionate language. Yes, yes, yes. Well said, the Vermont office of, well, what used to be alcohol and drug abuse programs is in the process of changing their name to get rid of that pejorative term abuse. So on all levels, there's something stirring. I do believe that it is a sea change occurring and it's a beautiful thing. What about, Tammy, what about, Edlin, what goes on over there? How do you educate people? How do you get this valid information out to people? So it's kind of like what Lisa says. For me, I'm not in recovery myself. I have a child who's in recovery. And so that's what got me into the whole recovery world as a parent and as an employer. I wanted to, one, understand. I wanted to break this. I kept thinking about how would I feel if my son wasn't given equal opportunities just because of this medical condition? And so for me, I share my story every day. I talk about the difficulties that he went through, that we went through as a family, that I'm very close friends with his prior employer. I've educated them. They have now started to take on people in recovery. So again, it's like Lisa says, it's education and sharing stories. And I think that is the best thing that we can do as a humanity to break down the stigma. Because once people hear a story, they understand that you're humanizing it, right? And so they want to be part of that movement. You know, it reminds me of everybody. Most people know Grace Keller from a safe recovery, a harm reduction agency. Howard Grace Keller. And I had a conversation with her recently. We were thinking of people who don't harbor stigma. They stigma free people. And how that happens. And I always, I wonder about it. I think about it all the time. And she said to me, really the best way to achieve that. And it kind of reflects what you're saying, Tammy. And Grace knows. She's been working right on the front line with people who use drugs for many years. She said, once you get to know someone, once you really get to know someone, really know them, who they are, someone with substance use disorder, whether they're using drugs or not, stigma vanishes. Because you know them personally, and you see the real person, you see beyond the symptoms. And it's just a beautiful thing that's happening in our state. Mickey, do you want to add to that a little bit about how working feels goes about educating recovery coaches, you know, people there who are your clientele or actual employers? Yeah, I mean, we do much of exactly what has already been shared today. But one of the things that I like to talk to people about when I'm trying to help them understand substance use disorder is, you know, I'm a person in long-term recovery. I'm also a person of privilege, where when it was my turn or my decision to get better, I had a good family, I had a job, I had education, I had financial resources, I had support. And because of that, you know, not that it was easy, my recovery was not easy. I will guarantee you that. But I had the support that allowed me to be successful. In my own recovery journey and what I've seen, and then also being the director of the Recovery Center in Chittenden County for a couple of years, you know, I got to see individuals who didn't come from the same backgrounds of me. They were not from privilege. They came from generational poverty and homes of dysfunction did not have the resources, did not have the support. And but as I got to know them, I got to, I saw in them that they wanted the exact same thing that I wanted in life. They just wanted a nice life to be successful, to contribute to the community and society. But because of their situation, they didn't even know how. They had nobody to help them. They didn't have the support. And what we can do as a society and as employers is to provide that opportunity, is to provide the opportunity to give people the chance to be successful. And when I talk to employers, they say, well, if I hire people through you that have a substance use addiction, how do I know that they're not gonna relapse and how do I know that they're not gonna steal from me and they're gonna revert back because they got out of prison and therefore they're gonna revert back to that. And I say to them, okay, so how do you know the people that you're hiring off the street? Because not everybody's like Tammy and calls them in and has a conversation with them. How do you know the people you're hiring off the street, what their situation is, what are they gonna do? What's the chances that they're gonna have a substance use problem or that they're gonna steal from you? And by the way, how is your retention going? And when you put it in those terms, that it's like an aha moment for employers. And I say, if you can hire somebody who has made the decision to take the right path, they've gone through some treatment, they have support system around them and they're coming to you for a second chance to work. Boy, don't you think that there's a reasonable chance that with continued and ongoing support and your help that they can be successful? And that rings true with a lot of people. A lot of people will react to that and say, yeah, you're right. So it's Ron said that there's a fringe of the employers that we're never gonna get through to. And I still wanna get through to them, but there's a lot that are in that middle group that just needs some education and understanding. Such a positive and I think a realistic way to view human nature that we do want to get better. We don't want to suffer. And many times people with addiction languish in the shadows because they feel that that exact moment when they reach out, they'll be punished. And a lot of that feeling of, I'll be punished that exact moment when I reach out is anticipation based on real lived experience because many of them have been wounded emotionally at that moment, they've reached out because of stigma. They've been judged and they've been punished. So they withdraw and in that withdrawal is more darkness and unfortunately continued drug use. And most tragically in our culture with the contaminated drug supplies, death. So, this panel and I consider you all brave, mighty warriors in this, you're really doing something to kind of push that tide. It's a sea change and I believe it's tipping and it's because of people like you who have really dedicated lifetimes and are really committed that it's coming from a very deep, springing from a very deep place. And we will prevail over time. It has been a long, long journey. I wanted to mention what we're gonna, we have a few minutes. This idea of it being a long journey, I did some research and I actually met Bewell Mitchell. Bewell Mitchell was the director of the alcohol and drug programs here in Vermont in 1984, 1985, 1986. Bewell Mitchell was one of the first people in Vermont that went to Washington and he was trained in employee assistance. And Bewell was really the Johnny Appleseed of what we're doing. He came back and he initiated very rudimentary employee assistance type activities within the state designed to support people with both mental health and substance use disorder. And that was the beginning of this and that was in 1984, 1985. So this arc bends slowly but it bends only because of the weight of your lives. And I wanna recognize that. And I wanna recognize Bewell in particular for being a real pioneer. Now, Ron, I think that there's also a toolkit and I'd like you to send me, people should send slides that will air at the end of the program as resources to the viewing audience. But Ron, did you wanna talk about that toolkit because I do think it is a valuable resource for employers. Yeah, absolutely. As we were talking about earlier, the toolkit was created to support employers and it has everything from interviews with Chittenden County businesses who were asked a series of questions about why they hire folks in recovery, advantages, disadvantages, advice that they would offer to other employers and any hiring considerations and supports that are afforded. And it gives you a synopsis of what Chittenden County businesses that we had identified early in the process do, did and would advise other businesses. There's also everything from inpatient, outpatient, treatment, location, locators to the local resources from the Howard Center or Spectrum Youth and Family Services, a whole host of supports that are in Chittenden County which are designed to support vulnerable and marginalized populations, which includes those with substance use disorder. And it was designed to be a one-stop shop. It's not completely comprehensive, but it's fairly well-staffed and stocked with good resources for folks. So for an employer out there who just doesn't really want to reach out in person, but wants to kind of access something that they can curl up with and look at and read and get an idea about some of the groundwork that's been laid as a first step. They could kind of poke around in the toolkit and then maybe get a little more motivated to reach out to one of the panel and see how maybe you could come to their company and help them to begin to organize, begin to organize around becoming a recovery from the workplace. And if I can take about 30 seconds, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out that can be found in the toolkit, but for those watching the show, those who might share it, we do talk a lot in our society about evidence-based. It's one thing to provide anecdotal evidence. It's another one to provide proof. And part of our work was researching the findings of board-certified addiction specialists. What did they think about someone in recovery who was working? And many of them had the same thing to say is that individuals in recovery have a program of self-care, especially if they've gone through treatment. So they tend to take fewer sick days. They have embraced principles like honesty and humility, which are characteristics any employer would want from any employee, but that the professionals have went straight to that as evidence that honesty, integrity and humility translate to a great employee. And they're not just a great employee because of those factors, but because they've been giving an opportunity like the woman you interviewed earlier, her gratitude came through loud and clear. And when you're grateful for something, you absolutely want to pay back for what you have received. And then that translates to a great employee. What they also found is that they're extremely loyal and dependable, tend to take fewer sick days. There's not going to be the call-outs on Friday and Monday because it happens to be a nice weather forecast for the weekend. And we wanted to go a little bit further too. So we took a look at a report from the National Safety Council and some of the information they provided was equally impressive. Employers who provide access to treatment realize a cost savings exceeding costs by a 12 to one ratio. And as a result of that, what they found is that absenteeism decreased by 36%, turnover decreased by 17%. And one of the real gems in this article was, it indicated quite strongly that employees in recovery are the least likely subgroup to leave their employer. So it's not just having a great employee, but there's economic impact for this as well. That you have to less often repost a job, retrain an individual. And the time of productivity spent on the job, therefore diminishes because the individual who's doing the work is still there. Well, thank you. Thank you for that input, Ron. That's certainly really encouraging. And if I was an employer watching this show, I would definitely, I would be noticing that. Now, my hope is that this show will go out. Alcohol counselors will get it. Recovery coaches will get it. Just the general population will get it. It'll be on CCGV, it'll be aired on a sister and brother stations. It's shared pretty widely. So I wanna give, I guess, Tammy and Mickey, really the closing to talk a little bit about, if a person is out there who has substance use disorder or knows somebody with substance use disorder and they're motivated, maybe by Barbara's testimonial, how can they act on that impulse? What's the next step for them? How do they reach out and who do they reach out to? How does that happen? Tammy, you wanna mention, talk about that a minute? Sure. So I always, people can email me their resume and I don't care what the resume looks like because I use it more, but just as a tool to get conversations going, like I've said, but they can email it to me, they can call me or very open, they can walk into Edlin and fill out an application. We're very fortunate right now that we, I just became fully staffed and I know that's a rarity in Vermont, but again, we've been working really hard to get our name out there that we are a recovery friendly workforce and I think that's helped that people feel comfortable. I have a lot of, like I said, I think five or six people right now in recovery, some of them long-term, some of them relatively new in recovery and they feel very comfortable and so they talk to their friends and their family and that helps people feel comfortable talking to Edlin. Beautiful, I'll make sure to include a slide at the end of the show with your contact information. Perfect, thanks. And Mickey, what about that? What's the next step for people? I've seen the show, I really want a job, it's okay if I'm in recovery, what do I do? Sure, if you've seen Barbara and you want the same experience that Barbara has then all you have to do is email secondchances at workingfields.com and we have offices in South Burlington, Rutland, Barrie and Springfield and we'll be happy to start the process and have a conversation and find out where you are, what you need and what the best place is for you. And guess what? Even if you haven't got to the point where you've been able to put down the substance, give us a call anyways and we'll help you find the right place. Thank you, Mickey. Beautiful. And I will also make sure to have a slide that lingers at the end of the show so people can copy down that information and reach out. Now, Lisa, in closing, I know that you mentioned related to this, the recovery friendly workplace initiative round table. Is that, did I say that right? Yes, you did. And is it true that people can attend this if they have interest? Is that the truth? Absolutely. So the round table, to shorten it a little bit, it's made up of leaders from the recovery, commerce, human resource, business and Department of Labor communities. And we meet monthly-ish to discuss, to network and to discuss recovery-friendly workplace best practices and everybody is welcome. So whether it is an employer who's curious about recovery-friendly workplaces, whether it is an employer who feels they have something that they can offer to other businesses, whether it's somebody who has friends or family members and they're trying to figure out like, how do I support them and they want employment? So it is literally, it's open to everybody. And I know you have some information, my contact information, if anybody wants to email me, I will make sure that they get the invite and the meeting information for that. Beautiful, thank you very much. So folks out there viewing audience, there's a wealth of information, there's a wealth of resources and there's people, real people who really want to connect with you and help you to move forward in this. I want to thank my mighty little team of brave, committed people for being here with me today. And thank you viewing audience mostly. And Barbara, Raptoy, our superstar. Thank you, Barbara, for being with us. All right, we'll see you next time and thank you.