 We're going to get started this is we have a rather full agenda, so we want to get going on it This is the development review board for Burlington May 21st We take up items in the order they are on the agenda and We ask when we call each item that the applicant come up to the table here and We also ask that use the microphones when you're at the table because it's hard to hear also the recorded Recordings on the microphone is our record of the hearing here There's also a clipboard at the table up there if anybody is Testifying wants party status or is an applicant. We ask that you sign the clipboard at some point during the hearing here I think that's going to be it for now The first item is the agenda We have no changes to the agenda. Is that true? I would just point out that the joint institutional parking management plan is to be deferred Anybody's here to find out about the joint institutional parking management plan. We're not going to be discussing it tonight deferred to another what meeting Another meeting to meet each other probably July. Okay Communications we have several things on our desk here that came in Both Hotel at the Y site and As well as something on the School application for 1364 North Avenue. We'll look at those as we get to those items I think there are minutes in our packet. Yes for May 7th So the Next item on the agenda is the consent agenda. The first item is 669 Riverside Avenue. Is the applicant here? Okay That is change of views from maintenance garage to daycare quite a change And I believe the site plan Changes were already approved separately for this. So that's on the consent agenda. So have you seen the staff report? And you're okay with that Anybody on the mission board object to treating this as consent Is anybody here to ask questions or testify on 669 Riverside Drive? Okay, I've seen none. Can we have a motion on this? And move that we approve the application and adopt staff findings and conditions of approval second All in favor Okay Thank you We only have two consent items of the other ones will probably take a little longer The next item is 1364 North Avenue City of Burlington school department. This is for miscellaneous site improvements So have you seen the staff report on this one? Yes, and you're okay with those items. Okay, is the board okay treating this as consent Is anybody here to testify on 1364 North Avenue? Okay, can I have a motion on this one sure on 19-0702 CA a 1364 North Ave. I move that we approve the application and adopt staff's findings and recommendations second Austin discussion all in favor post Okay, thank you. Thank you So the next item is public hearing for 164 North Willard Street is the applicant here you want to come up and This is a public hearing. So we take testimony under oath So I can ask anybody at all who plans to testify ask questions or participate in this item to raise your right hand Including the applicant and anybody else sir. Are you Testified yeah, so you need to write your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth and hold truth on the pain and penalty of perjury? Okay, so Okay, all these accused are we expecting other we are expecting other folks tonight, aren't we on the board? Okay So this is A peel of an adverse determination relative to the triple X sat status parking north and south and also discussion as to Viability of a duplex status if the others fail we have a lot of Affidavits here We've read them So we understand what is has been presented to us You want to make a present? How you want us to look at this You're gonna need the microphone Just to confirm I didn't submit the package until this morning But you've all had a chance to read our submission and I don't need to go through and summarize those arguments. I Think generally the arguments you might want to summarize what I'm saying is we have I don't know how many affidavits We don't need to have the affidavits individually summarized right we know it's generally in them All right, well This this matter involves two parking areas at 164 North Willard Street There's a paved driveway that leaves back back to a barn slash garage and it's my client's belief and position that throughout The last 15 years and dating back to the 1960s There have been gravel parking lots located to both sides of that driveway to the north and to the south And that those driveways have been continually maintained and used for parking With respect to the southern parking lot that was a negative finding by this board That was appealed that matter is still on appeal and as I understand the city's position You don't want testimony evidence on the southern parking lot. There's a distinct overlap We are of the opinion that you could hear issues related to the southern parking area The southern parking area we take the position It was a non-compliant structure that it would require a year of non use before my client would lose the right to Use it and the finding you made two years ago was that it wasn't used for a period of 60 days So you made a finding of 60 days. We think the finding needs to be a year You could take evidence on the southern parking lot or not But we want to raise the issues that we preserve our rights in that respect, okay, and you've got the triplex We have a triplex issue also, so I'll start with the with the parking and Okay, and I just want to point out so there is no site plan being submitted by you at this point, right? No, we're not seeking to change anything We're seeking to continue to use the property as it is in its in its current status and as the status It's been in for the last 60 years The allegation by the city is we stopped using some of the non-compliant Structures for a period of either 60 days or a year and therefore we can't continue those uses We're not seeking to change them in any way So we're trying to what we want to do is continue doing what we bit what we've been doing Okay, and so you you're I guess the first question is you're going to approach thing of Verifying that the parking area to the north has been in continuous use for the last 15 years We believe the parking area has been continuous use back to the 1960s Which would predate the time when it would have needed a permit it would be a grandfathered non-compliant structure the Former owner of the property a Hector Leclerc Has submitted to affidavits in both of which he says he parked in those areas as early as 1966 and part continue to park there throughout his ownership. We have as you said I think 12 or 15 affidavits from people all of whom testify to observing parking on both sides of the driveway Throughout his ownership and into mr. Purvis's ownership at various times at various times. Yes The 60-day period of non-use of the southern parking lot was actually after the city had issued a notice to my client stating that There was a problem with the parking area So if it actually was a cessation it was in response to the letter as opposed to a cessation of use But I understand that's that's not before you today Mr. Leclerc also obtained a a zoning permit when you made your prior decision You were unaware of that zoning permit the zoning permit allowed for work on race cars and junk cars on his property This is 1968 permit. Yeah, and back then a site clan would have been required as part of that submission I can't imagine the city wouldn't have wanted to know where the junk cars were going to be parked And where the work was going to take place that permit file has been lost by the city So it's our belief that there was likely a Permit for these two parking areas that showed his intention to use these areas for parking This was the type of use in a downtown residential area that was clearly going to draw the attention of neighbors and others going by They're working on race cars. They're revving engines. They've got parts strewn across the yard If anything was going to draw a neighbor complaint This was the type of activity that was going to draw it and there was never a complaint at any time throughout mr. Leclerc's ownership So we think it highly likely that there was a site plan and that these parking areas were permitted as part of that site plan We can't prove it the city can't prove that it wasn't I don't know who's Who bears the burden the situation where the file is lost? But we think they're likely was a site plan in any event the city alleges that that use discontinued the city's Primary evidence that they rely on a series of ortho photos which are taking from a high elevation Which they say show the parking area is turning green at various times If you have a gravel parking lot, you know grass grows up and we have the affidavit from the former owner That says he routinely re-graveled these areas as a matter of course that the growth that the weeds would grow in He would put down more gravel This would be consistent with anyone's experience if you have a gravel parking lot or have ever been near one And if you look at two of the ortho photos, there's one from 2013 and one from 2016 One shows the gravel one doesn't clearly the grass or weeds grew up over time So we think that the the ortho photos are less than convincing the ortho photos also show that there wasn't a car park there at The time, but that ortho photo is one second in one day on one path of a satellite over the property If you are a tenant or a resident of this property What are the odds that you're at work when that photo was taken? I mean, I don't think that photo is really indicative of much The only other evidence offered by the city on the issue of parking are the affidavit submitted by the neighbors the clearies and as I put in my presentation, unfortunately, there was an ongoing feud between the clearings and mr. Leclerc the former owner about a easement that he had over their property that Dispute was was unpleasant at times and that dispute has continued with respect to mr. Purvis and his use of that easement area that Dispute has gotten so intense and unpleasant that the clearies have twice tried to involve the city of Burlington police in the dispute Unsuccessfully the police have declined to take any action But we would ask you to take the testimony of the clearies in that context and then also understand that we have 15 Other witnesses whose testimony clearly contradicts the clearies testimony who have no horse in in this In this battle, no nothing at stake and no reason to misrepresent their observations And one of the confusing things is that the affidavits that you've provided Do reference long periods of time when Varys of the units were not occupied And some that say the units who went through periods of non occupation, but none of them say that they were for years at a time There were those that you have the rental registration forms that indicate that certain units may not have been rented But if you read the affidavits, they also state that mr. Leclerc frequently made these units available to family friends and relatives And so he may not have been renting them, but that doesn't mean nobody was living in them Right, it just it just hard for us to follow right well You have we have the neighbor who lives on directly next door Who on the other side as opposed to the clearies and the neighbor directly across the street who both have offered statements that those Units were fairly continuously occupied and if they weren't occupied they weren't it was only for brief periods of time They're both here and available to testify and I think it would make sense to also Cover the area about the duplex Triplex issue at the same time since they seem connected and I'd rather have it all on the table at one point Is that Absolutely We've we've presented on the triplex and on the duplex issue the The testimony in evidence is very similar the city has acknowledged that this was a pre-existing non-compliant duplex Their position is that it wasn't can that use was discontinued in or about 2010 through the period of 2013 First of all with respect to the year 2013 we have affidavits or statements from two people who rented the apartment in 2013 so we know that rental form was wrong We also know that mr. Leclerc filled out the form and indicated office for one of the units But on the 2013 form he clearly draws a line and says office apartment. So it's clearly this a Unit served a dual purpose. He may have had his office there But he also temporarily resided there on occasions and came and went the city has said it has to be a full-time Residence in order to qualify. I don't think the statute or the ordinance that the ordinance requires that I think you could have somebody who used an apartment Occasionally who may have lived somewhere else and when he was in the city of Burlington stayed in the apartment There must be many situations like that where someone lives several hours away comes to Burlington regularly for work Rents the place and doesn't live there full time Maybe they've rented it for secret assinations. Maybe they've rented it for any number of Residential purposes, but you can rent something for residential purpose and not reside there full time and we believe that's the case If you read the affidavits, they'll all say that mr. Leclerc frequently spent the night at this quote-unquote home office It's also true that mr. Leclerc in 2010 was in failing health and getting ready to sell the building He actually you know had it on the market and was getting ready to sell it by 2011 2012 He was doing repairs getting it organized and it property sold to mr. Purvis in 2013 So when you're getting a property ready for sale One of the things you might do is not rent out the units because it's a much easier sale without tenants than it is with Tenants, I mean someone wants to pick their own tenants and have their own input as to who's going to be residing a property Especially as mr. Purvis was going to be living there after he purchased it so The We think that That's clear evidence that it that it was always mr. Leclerc's intent to preserve the status of this property as a triplex It was always assessed as a triplex from 1984 forward. There's always been separate doors Locking doors with separate entranceway separate mailboxes separate electric meters separate bedrooms separate bathrooms and separate kitchens So these have been three integral separate units throughout the period the structure has since late 60s without change The fact that it may have they may have been vacant for periods of four or five months here or there should not Constitute an abandonment of this use because it may have just been he was getting ready for the next tenant as As you will read in one of the affidavits Mr. Leclerc experienced a tenant who came in and stole stuff from him and and remove stuff from the property and from that point forward He was hesitant to rent to people and wanted to be very careful So even though Burlington has a very low Vacancy rate he had he was still a very selective landlord and was you know wouldn't rent to somebody unless he felt very Comfortable with them living in this property where he had his own possessions and resided occasionally So once again brief periods of Vacancy don't constitute an abandonment of the use. I think the city should really reconsider the whole concept of abandonment Because this just stopping the use for a year if you're a university professor and you get ten year And you go away for a year and you come back Do you lose your parking lot if you're a military officer and you get deployed for a year? Do you lose your parking lot if I won't I won't deny that those are issues I will I will say that those are issues that we can't really address here But you can because you're the DRB and you know we stop to follow the ordinance well But I think you can interpret the ordinance if we don't change it No, but it's an abandonment should be coupled with some evidence of intent So if mr. Purvis plants a rose bush where he says there was a parking lot That would be clear intent of abandonment if mr. Purvis were to remove doors separating two units That would be clear intent of abandonment if you do something that's in Inconsistent with its continued use That's abandonment But if you merely stop using because you went to Florida for the winter and you were in Florida for more than 60 days That doesn't count an abandonment of the use clearly They had the intent to come back and use it for that purpose if it passes a threshold of the ordinance It does cost but the cut the thresholds a year on this in this case Well, some of it the city has maintained that with respect to the parking it's as little as 60 days So 60 days if you went away, I mean my client has given me one other indication that is considered a multifamily unit This is an Boiler inspection from 2013 if you want a copy I can share it with you only multifamily units have to get such inspections February 2013 before I even head in yeah Let me see if the board has any questions for you at this point then we hear from the city as well, I I have a couple Again very confusing with lots of conflicting testimony on the parking areas just to Figure out on the issue of whether we have jurisdiction to look at the southern parking area The dispute seems to be whether the 60-day rule or the one-year rule applies for Abandonment of the parking area correct, and I understand that was the issue and is the issue on appeal to the Supreme Court that's correct the the finding by the DRB was that there had been a period of non-use of 60 days We think that was the wrong standard Whether or not you can consider that whether that's that was that was the issue that we decided it is on appeal And it's relevant to this again I I think my inclination is to not get into that issue because It's being decided where it needs to be decided on the issue of a site plan again. I There's no site plan you want to continue the existing use a lot of time and energy has gone into trying to figure out What the heck the existing use is with respect to the parking areas? So I would think about if there's a site plan out there that you're saying defines these parking areas I would love to see that and Before we are done with this one way or the other if we were to approve a parking area I absolutely would want to attach a site plan showing the defined parking areas so that we never have to go through this exercise again, so just again you don't need to present that today, but That at a minimum would be a condition of approval in my mind Would a markup of the ortho photos suffice or do you want something I get something so again the purpose would be so everybody knows What is approved or not approved so we don't? Go through this again when somebody claims an expansion of the parking area a year from now I think it would be something tomorrow It would be helpful to see it on the orthos just so we can see how your claims line up with what we can see on The orthos because right now I have no idea what you're claiming the existing parking areas I mean as you say it if it's it doesn't show up clearly in the ortho photos So I don't know what your position is on the existing part the southern lot is clearly shown in the ortho photos That's clear because you have one that shows the gravel areas. I think there was I check with Scott I think Scott noted that in one of the ortho photos the north the northern areas also can be seen With gravel and he notes that that changes my point is we're guessing right before we're over over this We need to be clear on that again, and it's not now You don't need to tell us today, but and then maybe it's in as part of a condition on our decision But that's going to be critical and then on the Two units versus three units, and I hear your point about defining what constitutes abandonment But it does seem to me that From the affidavits and the information I saw that for a significant period of time there was a conversion of at least one of the units to office use and the standard that we use in all sorts of contexts on Defining what the use is and whether there's been a change use is the primary use and if it's Again, I what I read was the primary use was changed to office even though somebody may have slept on the on the couch occasionally Primary use would be the standard that I would use to judge conversion to a different use or Abandonment of the residential use right well unfortunately, we don't have mr. Leclerc available to testify is he has Significant memory loss. I don't know but it appeared to be dementia at deposition But it may have been some other form of memory loss So he was he couldn't tell us what his address in Florida was. I mean was that it was that bad so We can't we can't provide anyone who can affirmatively state that his primary use was as a resident We can't tell you there was never a sign on the door There was never an advertisement for any business going there. No one observed business customers coming and going There wasn't a business being conducted out of that space It was pretty much Mr. Leclerc going there and engaging in his hobby Which was race cars he would stay there and maybe go back to the barn in the back and tinker on his cars And then spend them spend the night there, but it wasn't a commercial slash business being operated out of that office space, okay, all right. I again, we're all struggling with the Evidentiary problems here. We're trying to make sense of all this. Okay. Those are my questions, Brad I Think I think I Take a minute and see if Scott has anything to add. We have the city's position on this Which you're aware of and I don't know if there's anything else Scott wants to clarify at this point regarding this Sure, I'll talk briefly It's a complicated Determination covering grandfathered as well as an enforceable violation on three separate things So I won't regurgitate everything tonight I'll summarize and then make a couple of points in response to What Hans has if you could also clarify the 60 day versus one year issue that would be helpful as to where that is originated from Well in the CDO so a non-conforming use right grandfather do is legit when it started, right? But is no longer under the present standards that has a year time frame for abandonment. So in other words, you can walk away from it for Almost a year, but not pass that and retain it An unenforceable violation. So let's say they built the parking area after a parameter is required didn't get one Right and it's been more than 15 years They could hold on to it unless they abandoned it for more than 60 days, right? So both of these have timelines and as I note in the summary in the staff report The point of the zoning code is to bring properties into compliance You get a little more latitude on a grandfathered use because it was at least originally legit There's substantially less latitude for an unenforceable violation because it is a violation, right? The city wants especially to bring that into compliance. So there's a much tighter time frame for abandonment on that So as to summary of the use is all summary of the issues. I'll start with the use the duplex versus triplex shoes so In so far as I can tell This was legitimately a duplex and I'm basing that largely on Written testimony from and Gil Barton who lived there she lived there from 47 until 1966 when she sold when the property is sold to Hector Leclerc Right in her written statement. She asserts it was a duplex, right? So right off the bat The only thing a triplex could be because there is no zoning permit on record for a triplex The only thing that triplex could be would be an unenforceable violation, right? That's the only thing it could be So the duplex has the year-long time frame triplex has 60 days So we're not contesting that there were three units in there There were three units. Maybe at some point. They were all residential the record shows that at least from the mid-80s I've got the date in here. I think Mid-80s anyways until the property was sold to the current owners. One of those units was an office space, right? So grandfathering for duplex unenforceable violation for triplex Fast-forward to closer to the present The rental registration records filled out by the owner at the time Hector Leclerc shows vacancy for several years So whether we're talking about the one-year time frame or 60 days Seemingly one or both of these uses were abandoned. That's the quick and dirty summary as to uses And we can get into questions after if you have them That's for the parking area. I Will defer the southern area to attorney Sturtibant But as to the northern parking area the record states Two different dates that it was established one refers to the 50s. The other refers to Hector Leclerc establishing it in the mid 60s So again, right? There's plenty of evidence to suggest that it went there right at some point probably for a substantial period of time The orthophotos so seven of them and given that these are taken in an instant right on a given day but five of the seven orthophotos show this has not a gravel parking area and the packet online is in color and We can get those under your noses again if you'd like but It shows a clear line at the edge of the driveway going north. It is lawn. It's not just weeds encroaching. It's it's green So, yeah, that's that's what we're hanging our hat on as to abandonment for that Thanks a couple of items in response to what's been said thus far So an 1968 permit, right? We have a permit log That was in use at the time Doesn't actually have the permits. It says it was a zoning permit building permit electrical and what it was for and We've established what it was for. I'm not so sure that it would have had a site plan The applicable standards for site plan didn't come until the 1973 code. We're talking about 1968 zoning permit Furthermore, we have zoning board of adjustment decisions going back to the 40s to 47 and Most of them are a page or two of text Some of them have site plans most of them don't so I wouldn't bet the farm that the 68 permit had a site plan Maybe that's a relevant point. Maybe it's not And the city does it does the log say what the permit was for in 68? It was for working on junk and race cars And finally Why the use was abandoned or made vacant is irrelevant So the zoning code the CDO the language says discontinued for any reason, right? It really says for any reason So maybe we should change it. Maybe we shouldn't but that's what it says now Any questions for Scott I don't know if this is for Scott or for Kim just the city's opinion this question of burden Whose burden it is in these cases to demonstrate either that the use continued for the entire period of time or that it was Discontinued Do you have a view on how we should approach that? Yes, so as far as Establishing a pre-existing non-conformity the burden would be on the applicant who is requesting that If I may there's a couple things I would just want to point out to the board the So in the ordinance section 5.3.4 talks about Non-conforming uses and there's also language all under 5.3 Regarding the 60 days discontinuance in the year discontinuance one thing I would point out I heard the term abandonment used a lot. This is discontinuance in your ordinance. It's not abandonment and there is a legal distinction You do not have to find an intent to abandon. You just have to find discontinuance And there is a case badger versus town of Ferrisburg that talks about that distinction and the relevance But it goes to Scott's point you just have you know, the question is was it discontinued for that time frame, you know Irregardless of the cause there was also testimony provided that or at least discussion that You know potentially it was discontinued because they're actively marketing it Under your ordinance that would require prior approval There was none obtained or requested, but if it was going to be discontinued for more than a year You would have they would have needed to come in and say hey, we're actively marketing this it's vacant But you know, could we get more time? And there's no record that that occurred Has that been in the ordinance for Going back some time. Yeah, do you know how long first showed up? I Believe it's been at least in the 2000. This is the 2008 version that we have currently I'm not aware that's that's changed since we adopted that version We can certainly find that out for you Thank you. Kim. Can you can you circulate that the decision on discontinuance that you decided? Thank you Can you use the microphone so in our recent Supreme Court decision? You wrote that the the permit that we had for work on cars and junk cars had been abandoned And I asked and looked around for the process and the procedure that the city used to determine that That permitted use had been abandoned. So and I couldn't find it. So could you explain how you? Reach that conclusion to write it in the Supreme Court brief Do you want me to answer that relevant to what we're doing now? Process of abandonment and discontinuance that the city has employed against me Sure, if you can do that, I know briefly is probably not the right word sure So again discontinuance for non-conformity which using it for race car Operations or everyone cars. It's just cars not race cars. It's just this cars This is a residential zone it wouldn't be approved today I don't believe so that is a non-conformity and the discontinuance of a year from that Please Whether it's permanent or not the permit becomes a non-conformity as well if you discontinued even if it was permitted It's still a non-conformity This this is a little bit of an excursion. That's not necessarily relevant to the particular issues that we're talking about right now To kind of just yeah, I think we have quite a bit to chew on So I I think we have a little bit of a Discrement about the time period and a little bit of a disagreement about the abandonment versus discontinued use Just ask one quick follow-up of the applicant based on the city's presentation the city I think is alleging that the triplex did not ever receive a permit Do you all agree just on that limited issue that there was never a permit issued for the triplex? Yes, okay. We have a lot of material here. I think we've got your testimony we have As you know you have a bunch of affidavits and statements many of the individuals who made those affidavits and statements are here and willing to testify and want to testify in support of mr. Purvis and It's up to the board whether you want to take their testimony or ask them any questions Or they could just stand and affirm their affidavits and statements. I leave it to you as to how you want to do this I mean The affidavits are Fairly clear and I'm gonna take up at the word that they're signed and they're truthful One person has some experience with the gravel that was laid at my property and the frequency in which grass grows through it So I'd like him to be able to okay I was gonna open it up right now to members of the public that could include this person then other people want to testify if I don't I Mean if somebody feels there's something that in there that was incomplete in the affidavit. They want to add to it But the affidavits are Quite specific, so I don't think we need to go through the testimony of all those right now But if other people want to testify Question for Scott to in terms of the northern abandoned use the microphone in terms of the northern abandonment Was it the fact that it turned to green space or the fact that cars stopped using it? It's a physical thing the physical cars using it It's different so car it can turn to be come green or not It cars can keep using it But it could turn to green on its own and it would be abandoned with the car on it Well grass growing up through it. That's We need to make that decision not staff So do you want to take a seat? I don't know if does anybody else want to speak of this, okay? So when you come up you if you could identify yourself and Again, we have the affidavit, so we're hoping we're getting Some other nuances here. Thanks. My name is Joseph Cleary. This is my wife Teresa Cleary We are the neighbors to the south and we have a Submittal from you I do I do feel like I should The personal allegations made my purpose regarding any feud Of course when when we were threatened by by mr. Purvis and by his car We did report that to the police, so I'm sure the board would understand the reason for that You can pull the microphone closer, so you don't have to lean over I will do that There was also never a feud with that. We're not that's not going to be relevant for us allegations against you, okay, I understand that and We so we originally testified in 2014 that's when that the case against us in the southern parking That's when that began and I need to correct attorney Husey that the finding that the DRB made was in January of 2015 and that finding was to That all disturbed areas as a result of previous parking must be restored to green space by May 1st 2015 so We're quite a ways on from from that and we really appreciate the the board's attention to the matter at this point our observations Along with what the city has included in their notes were that the property between when we moved into our our house in July of 2012 and when mr. Purvis moved in in I believe July of 2013 that other than mr. Leclerc visiting his office and parking in the driveway the property was vacant I would observe that It was mr. Purvis who? Documented changes on his rental registration as to the increase in parking so before there was ever any Complaint alleged by us mr. Purvis had marked down that there were two parking spaces at the property and then In the next year Let's see. I want to get my my years correct So that was in 2014 you reported two parking spaces at the property Which is consistent with what was reported by mr. Leclerc the next year in 2015 mr. Purvis reported eight parking spaces at the property So that's an increase in 300 percent of 300 percent in parking and what we observed during that time was Even in the first year that mr. Purvis owned the property He used them northern parking area and the driveway and then in 2014 in fact the date was April 26th of 2014 he'd be in parking cars to the south of the driveway and it began with one then two then four Believe that mr. Purvis instructed all of his tenants to park off of the driveway on the grass to the south And that's what brought us to code enforcement to our complaint And I understand that as a result of the discovery and that process the city found other deficiencies with the property Our complaint has always been limited to the southern parking and I would Like to bring the board's attention we've had some communications with the appellant through his attorney and One recent statement stood out, which I'd like to share with the board and with his neighbors So he was proposing that he would put several cars on one side of the driveway and several on the other side And again as the board knows there's never been an actual plan submitted for this parking So this is the sort of thing we can't say yeah, you can put cars here or there. It's not up to us But regarding that proposal mr. Purvis stated This will split the parking burden evenly between my neighbors to the north and south of my property so that's It's clear that his parking should not be a burden to his neighbors. I think that's the intent of the of the ordinance It shouldn't not be a burden to our property or to that of miss tamu anus to the north and Therefore with regard to the southern parking in particular We urge the board to uphold the adverse determination and to proceed for the city to proceed with enforcement as as required Questions for the theories from the board Just a couple how long have you lived in your residence since July of 2012 okay, and in that time did you see It sounds like you saw people parking on the northern side of the driveway and on the southern side of the driveway No, when we moved in Nobody lived at 164 North Wheeler Street Mr. Purvis moved in about a year later. So the previous owner mr. Lecler Would come to the property and park in the driveway as one would Until and here's the date again. This is something that was previously presented to the board back in 2014 March 7th 2013 Mr. Lecler Directed workers to deposit three to four truckloads of gravel I know that some of you mr. Rubino is mr. Hart you were on the board back then So there were truckloads of gravel that were deposited Both to the south and the north and that's why as Mr. Gutstin has stated the Most of those photos show that it was green especially on the north and part of that is the angle that I think they were taken from but So anything after March 7th 2013 Would show a large gravel area to the north and again, I would say that was my estimate is three to four truckloads and it was Clear that mr. Lecler had experience with building this type of parking So what they did first was lay down a layer of Something like marble chips or something just white Gravel and then on top of that they put spread a layer of very dirty gravel So when it's finished it doesn't it's not like gray and white It's brown and these are photos that they that we provided previously to the city. I don't have those To submit tonight. So this is part of the record I'm clear on the timeline. So prior to that gravel being deposited to the north and Since you live there. Was there any parking on the northern side of the driveway? Not that we observed Or the south of the driveway Mr. Lecler had a gray truck and he visited somewhat regularly and he parked in the driveway is a very large driveway and a barn with kind of three a Big double-door and a single door. So I would call it a three car garage if you were going to define it that way Thank you sure thing It's anybody else From the public on account. Please come up Hello, can you hear me? Okay? My name is Margaret Tamulonis, and I live at 172 north Willard Street, and I'm sorry I didn't get the name Margaret Tamulonis. Okay. I go by Ms. Tamulonis Thank you for the opportunity to address this group as a resident of the Old North End a Long-time homeowner and occupant of a house on north Willard Street. I wanted to make sure that some of my observations were heard and understood especially about housing that is adjacent to my property and Up to this point some decisions have been made without my relevant input, which I thought I could deal with but not now The three units I just want to make these statements You'll see some of it in my affidavit, but the three units at 164 were occupied in various ways from 2002 to until now That's what I know because that's how long I've been living there Before current owners Luke and Christina I always saw the previous owner Hector and various occupants parked in the back on both sides taking out garbage Mowing or meeting taxi cabs I heard music from the upper windows above my driveway because it's really just a driveway length between the houses Since I was living alone in my house for a part of that time I was acutely aware if my neighbors were around just for safety reasons So I always noticed if lights were on or off And an abandoned unoccupied and dark house would have been a concern to me And Hector did call it his bachelor pad at times So he was there as well. He was trying to sell I think in the fall of 2012 and that last winter was the quietest I'd seen the property. It was quieter, but there was still some movement there and that last winter of Leclerc's ownership I only saw a caretaker who stayed from time to time in the back unit in the driveway and parking area were plowed regularly Which I really admired because I didn't have anybody plow my driveway, but it was great Until Hector would return from his regular trip to Florida There was always parking and gravel to either side of that big driveway And it was regravelled from time to time and you'd see weeds going through and anyway Hector would be working in the back I'm really sorry to have to say this, but I also would like to note that the behavior of my neighbors at 158 North Whillard has been very Disappointing. I'm really sorry to have to bring it up at all But last fall Mr. Clary confronted me on my way to work demanding why I considered myself Luke's star witness That's what he said to me and it came to the point where I had to ask him to stop talking to me so I could continue to work To get to walk to work. That's really made me uncomfortable. I walk by their house every day on my way to work as I have been the entire time I've lived there. I really tried to avoid any interaction with them Weirdly this past summer on a rainy evening. I was sprayed with a garden hose through their fence And in a bizarre incident over the summer Very vivid there was one where Mrs. Clary was screaming at Christina while she who was pregnant and weeping Across the fence and and these are the things I've had to witness as a resident on Whillard Street I attended the very first DRB hearing years ago because Luke and I had been in conversation about it But I didn't realize that this information I just shared with you was important to the whole process I I really feel like it is now and I did not want to insert myself in a neighborly dispute for the reasons I just described, right? I want to be able to walk around in my neighborhood and feel comfortable I would have liked to have seen the city describe the scope of the issue better So I could have understood more that what I had to say was relevant And I just want to say I'm grateful for the work that you do and I love being a resident of the old north end as I have been for over 17 18 years So thank you Any questions? No, thank you I have to sign this. Yeah, we don't have to but Okay, is anybody else some If I don't need you to refute testimony, okay Okay, anybody else My name is Adam Phillips. I've lived across the street at 159 North Whillard pretty much my whole life an exception to a year maybe a Little over a year and a half. I lived out of state. I Definitely have witnessed Plenty of activity in the house. I don't I can't give you timelines. I really can't be sure of any of it but I have grew up right across the street and Witnessed all the the cars that they worked on. I knew they you know, they had race cars or Hector had race cars They were parked all over the place. There wasn't really any lawn. I mean because there was our always cars There was a trailer a lot of times parked on the street There was just a lot of stuff going on. It was kind of like a car shop and You know, I'm sure they had to have gravel back then or else it would have been a mess The gravel issue is also one of those things where if it's You know, I've I've worked in landscaping for a long time. I know that sure pack can be Grass can grow right up through sure pack. I have pictures. I've taken pictures of Driveways that have turned completely into grass after having sure pack You know over years and years of course if it's fresh sure pack, it's not It's not gonna happen right away but over time over the course of time, you know enough time grass and other things grow up around and It's it's just one of those maintenance things where yes, you have to add gravel if if it If you feel the need to have it clean, but obviously you can have a sure pack driveway with grass growing all over it and it's just one of those things where a Maintenance issue or if you want to fresh gravel put down. I mean a lot of people choose to do that. It's inexpensive But truckloads and truckloads You know, maybe over time. Yes, but I just You know, I've been there, you know, Luke's a good friend of mine and It's it's been like that like okay, I just appreciate the testimony Just one question based on your experience. How long if someone put down a gravel drive How long number of years would it take for that to appear like lawn? It depends on the type of gravel, but if we're talking about sure pack, which is a usually a driveway material It wouldn't take long Maybe a few years for grass to grow up through if there's a lot of traffic on that area It would the grass wouldn't grow as quickly, you know, all depending on the traffic of the whole area, but I I Remember when Hector was there. It was mainly used as parking areas. I mean, there wasn't really much of a lawn It was mainly Areas to move vehicles and there was I just I always remember that a big tire rack close to the garage on that southern side and And you know, it's it's kind of one of those things the neighbors directly across the street It's been I think it was a duplex. It's always been rented out to college kids, you know, and The whole there is no lawn every part of that area is used for parking even though It's not supposed to be it was gated off and there was areas where it was turned into lawn It was right next to the side of my parents house We never complained, but there it was the whole property was used as a parking lot and that's that's the sort of situation where You know, there should be an issue, but my parents never brought it up and I just I just think that That's the sort of situation But it's not an issue at those. Yes. Okay Also, I have been witness to some Some behavioral we're not gonna that's not relevant to us right now. So as far as witness, I'm just saying Okay, thank you Anybody else who hasn't spoken that wanted to say yes Hi, my name is James Hartnett and I've lived on Brooks Avenue for Well, since 1962 just recently sold the family home just a few months ago The property in question was our paper room my brother Dave Hartnett myself. It was our paper room Not only just the free press we actually had a route in the afternoon once a month or once a week was a shoppers guide and Not to the neighborly dispute know what's going on just to the parking. There was cars everywhere There was flatbeds. They were wreckers. They were race cars and to be not only delivering the paper there It was just any kid riding his bike by in the neighborhood That was the place to go to see how he wrecked his car up that night before the race, you know what I mean and I Just remember it was exciting for us kids to drive by and as far as parking. Oh my god It was out in the street with a flatbed or wreckers or cars parked everywhere and You know, they wouldn't ever get away with it now But back then I guess they just really didn't enforce it that much and it was accepted but Just to share my thoughts with the neighborhood back then and it's come a long ways and for the better But as far as in those days, it was it was there was cars everywhere Park North South East West Front Street and then the garage and it was he was always willing to have us come in the garage and tell us about the races and How many cars he ran into that night and I do refer to he He just thought that that that address was his domain and he kind of ruled back there So if you were a neighbor and you liked it great if you didn't like it that was too bad But he was kind of the hot guy in the neighborhood at the time and he was very friendly and Sounded exciting. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to ask you one quick question just because the time periods We need to try to understand that so I know it's tough. This is going back a ways Can you put any dates on the period that you talking about late 60s early 70s? Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. And I think it's another gentleman over here wanted to testify My name is Philip M. Boulder senior. I live at 395 North Street in Burlington In the early 80s I worked several years on Hector's race car fixing a lot of the dense and everything else and We mainly showed up at his garage in the evening After supper time and would work until nine or ten o'clock at night We never ever had to my knowledge any complaints about where we parked and we parked on both north and south side of the driveway in parking areas any complaints about noise we Generally made a Big effort not to rev up the engine or anything like that. We were friendly with all the neighbors and and likewise As far as the office use of Hector's office his office was the kitchen table and It was not a formal office. He never had any He was a contractor. He never had any construction equipment in the yard or anything like that But there were two bedrooms a bathroom there a kitchen and I was there several times and that would have I Would have eaten breakfast first, but he would eat breakfast there and I would have coffee While I was there so in the sense that it was an office office. He stayed there quasi frequently He also had his son-in-law Carl Cain lived in the apartment and His two children were born there in the early 80s and He now lives in Fairfax also Okay, any questions? Yes, please again, and I apologize because this is going back away But a can you give put any dates on the time period that you're talking about? Well, I've lived in my house since the early 70s and Worked on the race car in the early 80s up to about 1985. Sorry. So you were at the property early 80s through 95 85 85 not 95 early 80s through 85, right? Okay, all right, and again you you've described. I think the where mr. Leclerc was living were their tenants in Were there other tenants in the door always tenants there while I was there and And I would stop by after the fact just to visit Hector and there were tenants there. There was mailboxes there I didn't necessarily know them by name, but by face, you know, we'll always said hi friendly All right, thank you. Hey anybody else on this Okay The applicant want to come back up. I Not sure that you can come back up I think We've probably got most of testimony go right ahead boards indulgence We're gonna submit the site plan tomorrow My client has one photo that shows mr. Leclerc car parked to the north of the driveway We hadn't received the Cleary submission before coming here today We'd ask permission just to submit that one photo and additional to the site plan tomorrow Which sort of I think maybe gets to the issue of what whether we're gonna close the public hearing at this point I mean, I have to say if we're gonna Get a site plan. I actually want a site plan. I I think we have a lot of photos We have a lot of photos that are sort of anecdotal evidence But as I think somebody else mentioned we don't really know And and this and I think this is something we may need to discuss is if We were to approve anything Without a site plan. We don't really know what we would be approving And so anything that we would do would have to be conditional on on getting an actual site plan So I don't know that I particularly see any relevance to getting another author photograph with marks on it Again, it's it's a point in time. You've Said your question the validity of that we have other points in time Over many years. No, it's just that Mr. Cleary say that mr. Leclerc never parked to the north. We have a photo of his parked car I think given the testimony we just heard tonight From other folks as to when he was active with the race cars. There's no doubt that he parked Everywhere. All right. Thank you. We'll just submit the site plan Okay, um, let me take a moment here with the board. Um, yeah, I Right on the issue of whether we close the public hearing I just the issue. Yeah, all right my Thought would be that we not close the public hearing just because there's I don't know There's just a ton here. I think we got some new affidavits I couldn't tell if they duplicated ones that we had before and I just I would like the opportunity to sift through this and see if I have other questions So that we can make sure we're making the best decisions So probably that we would keep it open deliberate and we could deliberate and close the public hearing at that point Or we can ask for another hearing so that I don't know if that's clear to you But we would keep the public hearing open. We would still deliberate when we're We would deliberate on this and at that point we could either decide that we need more testimony We need more submittals or we would vote on it at that point So, um, we by leaving the the hearing open by not closing it right now gives us a few options in that way You know if it's at all helpful the photograph is available if you want it you can ask for Thank you. If we're gonna Keep it open. I mean, why not there's conflicting testimony and I can understand why they'd want us to have some Submit it tomorrow. That's but just bread. I just my suggestion. I if we could continue it Conditionally to a certain date, then we don't everybody knows when they have to come back I'm sure everybody wants to get this resolved And we wouldn't have to notice it again, etc And again, if we in the meantime we deliberate make a decision we could close it at tentatively six four Does that work or is that six four is the next meeting? But Austin's not here and you only have four participating right now. I hear the fourth year in the 18th So the 18th would be the 18th would be um, and I don't know if we're gonna deliberate monday On this one. We'll decide at the end of the evening Monday's memorial day. Monday's memorial day. Monday's memorial day. Oh, we won't be deliberating monday You can deliberate with yourself Okay, so with that you're gonna submit something tomorrow We're gonna figure out when we deliberate and we're closed and we're We're gonna deliberate on this at some point. We don't take any more testimony when we deliberate Deliberate once we decide when we deliberate it is open people can come and listen, but they can't participate More testimony, but you are accepting submissions. We're asking for that one item. Very good. Thank you Well, again, we're Leaving the public hearing open right continuing it. I think to the 18th In case the board wants to ask additional questions, right? But we're not going to ask for more information at this point That's fine. So we can make submissions through the planning and zoning. I don't think we're If it's open, I think brah I mean the challenge is we're letting the applicant submit for the very first time in this long proceeding a new site plan I don't want the proceeding to go that much longer But if the people who have participated have comments on the site plan I think we probably need to allow those to come in before our next conditional period We're the neighbor we've never seen a site plan. We don't know exactly where I was to put anything okay, so Site plan is going to get submitted tomorrow. It's part of the public record. It will be here and I would say This is Tuesday We can leave it open to take other submittals for next by next Tuesday That way we will when we deliberate we'll pay attention to With that we'll adjourn this item at this point. Thank you. Thank you The next item on the agenda Actually is the joint institute Institutional parking management plan which we're not taking up tonight And it's 384 south prospect street university of vermont It's actually the uh music building and recital hall addition We're recusing this alleys here Okay, um do you want to uh, I think yeah, let me just um, I want to Disclose that our firm occasionally represents uvm on unrelated matters to this I think I can rule objectively on this decision. I don't believe it's a conflict that would require my recusal But I want to disclose that to you and to the other parties who may participate and make sure there's an opportunity for anyone to Ask questions or request my recusal so and I also Want to introduce yourselves and I will note that our review of State universities is limited to particular areas and I think you're probably aware of that so we can proceed Thank you very much. Good evening. My name is claire forbs and I'm with uvm campus planning and we also have um Tyler scott and scott and partners architects and the architect of the project Um just to kind of give you a brief introduction on the project uvm plans to construct a four thousand five hundred and forty four Square foot addition to the music building Which is attached to south wick hall at 384 south prospect located on uvm's redstone campus Construction will take approximately one year starting this august The music building recital hall, which was constructed as an addition to south wick hall in 1975 It was designed by burlington associates This is a two million dollar donor funded project developed as a result of the uvm music department realizing that the building Had several deficiencies in terms of the back of house support support space storage and inadequate handicap access Currently um one piano is stored on stage permanently so The addition will provide support space For the existing building and not result in an increase in building users So no additional students faculty staff or visitors The project will also include renovations for purposes of improving the use and the accessibility Of the building and the stage and will not increase any seating numbers in the recital hall The proposed addition is one story on the east side and two stories on the north side and will provide storage for the grand pianos A green room for performers Chair and instrument storage practice rooms handicap access to the lower level seating area Truck loading handicap bathrooms and other interior upgrades The site work will include a new sidewalk which will be constructed on the northern and eastern side of the addition Which will improve handicap accessibility There will be two additional replacement parking spaces to the existing parking lot Removal of one tree as part of the project and installation of metagrass to the north and east of the building The traffic volume and circulation patterns will remain the same as a result of the project There the two additional replacement parking spaces are included in the proposed joint institutional parking management plan Which was deferred tonight However, the project complies with the current city's parking requirements because there are no new seats in this recital hall So we kind of like would like to look at the project independently if possible Updated site plans were provided On the record showing Minimal updates just the removal of a blue light A slightly wider sidewalk on the eastern side of the addition And areas showing the metagrass as proposed And an updated as part of the staff comments an updated photometric plan will be provided tomorrow I think the plans are ready for that tomorrow And also just we would like to request the construction team would like to request to work on saturdays in order to Finish the project within the one-year time frame Tyler scott the architect will kind of walk through the site and project scope I have one question. I'm just curious now Metagrass is that non-mode grass? So that's sort of an environmental thing to correct Have you done that other areas in the campus? We do we have done some near university heights Buildings, but this is kind of a new lead Opportunity, so we're we're using our faculty and staff to help figure out the best species This is more here. I say, okay. Yes Thank you. Okay, so It started here This is the existing building And as you'll see here This is the connection over to southwick, which is on the far left of this building. So this is the So the south end of the music Hall or music building Coming down here This is the north end And this is actually where the recital hall is in this Two-story structure here. So we're adding on to this end of the building You go down to lower left photo. We're adding on to here and coming around to this side here Right where the arrow is you'll notice there's an exit door From the recital hall that's required. So we need to maintain that Coming around the front Here we're adding basically from The east side of this stairwell here On over to the east and to the north and to the east So we're covering up this portion Here and our roof line will pretty much match this line right there It won't go as high as the recital hall roof itself so The existing site plan As you'll notice, this is the perimeter of the recital hall here And right now the parking there's four parking spaces at point north And there's a tree here that I think certain people Building at the physical plant would love to get rid of and so this is their opportunity And so we are Adding into this area One of the issues that we have here is that this area is all ledge and the ledge is Pretty close to the surface of the ground and there are major utilities that run through that ledge like an eight inch water line and And storm water lines and this sort of thing so The shape of our addition was governed to a certain degree by the location of those Forced us to Shape it in such a way that If you look here, we're building out along this general line here In order to avoid Relocating these lines which feed A lot of the redstone campus and they're old old water lines and old Storm lines so we don't want to mess with them. So Anyway To give you some idea, this is some of the area that we're replanting in meadow grass here and here For lead purposes of that crosshatched area is that This is a new sidewalk that winds its way around the building here Because we have to maintain this exit out of this end We'll have a larger plan of this in just a second and then The parking now however now faces south And parks up against the building and we gain a couple of spaces there along with the loading area so So a larger version of that site plan gives you a better idea we now have Five spaces plus a loading area So our the existing building has an overhead door and loading area at this plane right here We're extending that out to this point here. So our loading dock is here just for performances. It would just be You know a box van type of loading. That's all all they do there We are relocating The existing dumpsters to this location right now. They're set sort of over here And they're blocked by the car that is here There is currently sort of an odd Space in the parking lot. That's that's not really maintained as a parking space. So we're going to create a parking space there And We are providing two accessible spaces here For access into both the north end here or north entry here We also have another accessible entry here And then back around this side now. What's important to understand here is that The stage level of the recital hall is at this grade level So we're building this whole addition at the elevation of the stage level, which is what are So access directly from the stage back into these functions is important so In this slide what you'll see without all the site work is that we're adding storage rooms green room this sort of thing here and then an access here and then An access down here, but this area down here is lower and it it matches the lower end of the seating for the recital hall here, which is about 34 inches below the stage height right here And so when you enter in the north end you actually enter at the stage height and then you there's a ramp up And then you enter into the lobby area, which is even higher. So there's really three levels. We're working with here And this is the upper level Technically it's it's called the third level of the building But it's actually just the second level of the addition and then this area over here is Mechanical rooftop mechanical equipment and it's screened around this area right here And this is the roof of the lower area, which is over here. So not not all this building is Two floors this is roughly the exterior of the existing building And so again, we're adding over here. I just ignore this and I'm not sure where that came from but Anyway, there's an overhead door. There's an existing north entry here Stairs Some windows here and then just pretty blank all the way across there proposed addition continue wraps around this east side here And what we've done is tried to pick up some of the patterning that exists On the south side of the recital hall, which is part of the original building also And then it wraps back around to the north side of the building And then we continue with similar siding as is on the existing building so To tie it into that This area is two stories in here Okay, and in here, but one story starting from roughly this point on over This is the mechanical screen in this area right here So we've just again pulled this overhead door out Um, we've added a vestibule to the north end so that north end entry pulls out. We have a small canopy over that And uh, then this area is just another entry here and exit from the recital hall here We have a lift inside to provide access both to the upper level and It also allows access from the lower level of recital hall to the Addition in within a enclosed area. So That's it in a nutshell Any questions I can answer on that And the material is the addition is fibrous cement panels of there are Fibrous cement panels, uh, brad and the dark panels here And then this is a borel siding here because oddly enough This part of the existing recital hall is vertical wood siding over concrete However over concrete 12 inches of concrete trust me This area however here is exposed concrete Board form concrete to make it look like it has vertical wood siding on it. So We're not quite sure the logic behind all this but we're not going to question it But anyway, so you have vertical borel, which is is it milled to look? Yeah, it's going to it's going to look basically like the wood but the wood Is not something that we want to replicate from a point of durability okay, so Yeah, the the building is sort of has we we're not quite sure what the how and the why of the difference between the two exterior treatments And is there additional lighting on the parking lot or you just know there's only lighting that follows the sidewalk And the sidewalk basically Starts from here comes around We have we have lighting around the face of this building and up here and then at this point here to Light that sidewalk that goes around But we have no pole lighting on this no additional pole lighting. There is Went all the way back to the site plan. I think there is some lighting in the plaza, but that's existing lighting And how is construction access Working on this site Construction access will be from south prospect street around the redstone green So there's one way in and then one way out. So It's actually a pretty decent circulation that can travel through the site So that's probably the only question about the saturday construction request would be construction traffic on Prospect street Well, I think it would be minimal work on saturdays and this would be just a To allow it when it's needed So it would not be major excavation and concrete trucks on saturdays correct We're trying to keep this this access back to the church Parking lot here would would that would be remain open this area this parking lot would be taken over by construction vehicles So during construction, we'd actually have we would not have any Vehicles parking in that area except for construction vehicles So currently there's track. There's cars coming in and out of this parking lot on a regular basis So that parking would not occur, but the parking for the does this get coordinated with a performance schedule? Yes That has to get factored in yes, and that's the project schedule Was based on some of that as well Um, so I am so sorry I have to ask this I'm just having a hard time visualizing is this the hall that's right near university way I'm just having another time picture you can see it from university way. It's west of that explain where the building is Well, do you know south wick hall that faces out on that circle? Sorry, I don't know that building Do you know the um catholic center the cath the church either of the churches on campus? The easiest way to say is it's the building that sort of mimics city hall at the end of redstone campus Yeah, so if you know the big green that's on yeah Just the left of that redstone green is um, it's behind the it's behind those buildings. Great. Thank you So and it was added on to in 1974 From this point out. Do you see what I'm saying if you look at that? This is the concrete Sort of brutalist addition that went around here and up here. So the building is really has two different phases to it Okay, so we're adding it's tucked in there. So it's hard doing it in addition to an addition. Okay. Great. Thank you That really contains a picture Great. Thank you. Thanks so much Apologize again I don't think I saw anybody from the public. Uh, I know it's a lot good from UVM if anybody else I'll just add one thing um due to the um the parking demand because um The use the the proposal doesn't trigger new parking spaces condition number three becomes irrelevant in the staff report So you might want to consider just omitting that from the findings Thank you Okay, and nobody else has anything to add Close public hearing Thank you. It helps to be in the middle of the campus. I'm sure Next item in the agenda is um 275 main street city of burlington school department I feel like saying this is further tuning of the site. It seems that is correct. Yeah Yes As you promised I think last time you were here I'm sorry as you promised last time you were here. That is correct, too so I probably need to square You folks in Anybody who's going to testify on this Is anybody else at the brain trust here? I say do you want to raise your right hand and do you square to tell the whole truth and pain and penalty of perjury? Yes, so you want to introduce yourselves and um Say I mean it's good evening. I'm marty spalding. I'm the director of property services for the burlington school district This is yes. I'm collin lindberg and the brunettos with me Hi randor brunette with collin brunberg's office and brenda is also for my office Over here doesn't even have a chair It looks like it's a project with a particular focus and narrow mission. It's correct. Yeah, let me give you a quick overview Sure So, um, this permit was approved roughly a year ago. The focus of this project is We've done renovations to our c building on the edmunds campus, which is our currently our gymnasium And it used to have a shared Gymnasium slash cafeteria So we renovated that lower level space to have a dedicated Cafeteria and kitchen space on the lower level so that we don't have to share that function on the the Main level with the gymnasium where the existing kitchen was on the main level. We're now creating a new Admin visitor sign-in area for safety and security of the campus The c building is going to be our primary single entry point for for the campus between the middle and elementary school So included in that we're bringing the grades up at the front entrance eliminating the stairwell to that to that front door so that we have ADA access from main street as well as from our Current we're reconstructing the current horseshoe Drive in front of our elementary school So that's really the the big change that from what we proposed a year ago was we originally Had a new drive with a curb cut off of South union and we're now Reutilizing the current horseshoe and creating some additional handicap parking there And maybe you could walk us through the plan there And can I just for clarification purposes? The middle school and elementary have different cafeterias No, no, they don't so they do have different gymnasium. So our c building used to be Our elementary school gymnasium As a shared space for the cafeteria for both the middle school and the elementary school that tiny kitchen was for both That is correct Okay, and now it'll be shared but separate Correct still shared cafeteria Which is fine still share cafeteria that is correct now both spaces will have their own dedicated separate gymnasium spaces And that cafeteria work is is now completed. Yeah, it looks great You have a big agenda. So I would like to just try and summarize very quickly four architectural points Number one security We have four buildings and 18 entrances We don't have to say anymore. We're bringing a central entrance central control number two safety Big old a building drops snow We're putting a fence around it as a drop zone. We're improving roof restraint And going to be doing things to get rid of the ice Connected with that attic Number two Accessibility mark marty already mentioned from main street Directly to c building. It'll be a one and 20 totally accessible In addition to that the accessible Spaces in front of b building will have A entrance again to the main entrance as well as parking in front of b Completely accessible Number did I say two? I'm going to three memory Number three is the Environmental issues We're taking all the water from the site from the roof from the improvement Slowing at way down by a lot of expensive Underground to deliver to the city very very slowly Expensively and number four the aesthetics Sea building is a lovely little facade We're trying to reinforce that by this axis the planting The whole front of the entrance So that it's pleasant, but it's difficult because it's in the niche So we have to make an important node in the center of this So that all of a sudden you have a place to enjoy the planting the lighting and I've said too much Randy, why don't you talk through the slides? Brenda you want to go back to that first one maybe first this is a rendering Uh, if so if you're standing on main street and looking down There's an existing walk that that exists now that leads straight 2c building, which is the original Gymnasium of the school that was built 1925 and and that's been the focus of of the interior renovations that marty explained just a minute ago Currently there is About a dozen risers or so that are in disrepair that that lead to that entrance That with the increase of the grades will be no longer. So Anyone gaining public access? From main street will be able to navigate via chair and meet the ADA regulations straight from main street to that primary entrance There's several walks Existing conditions. We have a site stair that occurs both here And here and and the maintenance of the stairs on site that are unprotected is is nearly impossible So these designs are eliminating All site stairs to remove that from the maintenance headache and make just better safer circulation All together for for the community So you can kind of see that we have Various landscape walls to help control the grades With those coming up. We need to break those grades And you can kind of see in the foreground the the fence That column mentioned for the roof protection There's a site plan or aerial aerial view Again that rendering photo was was off of main street looking at sea building. Go ahead In your packet is A site plan of the conditions that are Being changed the two curb cuts for the existing horseshoe are staying the same And all that's really being changed is the orientation of the parking to improve The safety of the school has Two or three buses that drop off daily kids for special needs And and those are parking spaces that are primarily Uh For handicap accessibility and for parents who might be picking up A child from the the nurse's office or for a dentist appointment or or or the like, you know Temporary temporary parking 20 minute parking. You just walk me through the Parking in the front the handicapped access. So if someone Parks there if they're entering the school complex, they come there's a walkway Right on the side of the building to the main entrance is that Yes, so if if if the handicapped person is coming via Public transit being dropped off at the street This will meet the one in 20 grades Directly from main street if they're coming via either the school bus district transportation Or or private transportation from a parent They can park or be dropped off in the drop-off lane and this new new sidewalk provides ADA Uh accessibility standards from the parking area. Okay, so both both will be required to support both those functions How do you how would one move east to west in the front of the buildings? Would you have to go out to the public sidewalk on main street to move east and west? so There is this this sort of uh arched walkway is has been put in to provide Afternoon egress to uh to the bus stop Pick up off of main street In the mornings Vice versa, you know be entered through through in the morning Most of the day activity is is within the building envelope itself the two schools tend not to have circulation In during the day that's that's outside Because most of the activity To the ball field is in the rear Or through the building itself. I guess just to follow up on that between that drop-off area Coming down to that circular area. Is there any Vegetation control or anything planned there to keep people from just walking down the bank? That area yeah, the blue indicates the sidewalk that brings you to the the front of the building and and There's About four feet of drop of grades that that occur between the plaza and the walk that's located there Right now there's stairs that There are currently stairs that connect and so you're changing the East west circulation so that People don't go from a to b right in the you know currently if you're being dropped off as a middle school student You would need that circulation to to gain access to the middle school But with the new security improvements and access points to the to the school That access point is now located here. So if you're if you're trying to gain access to the school the only entrance That would be the only entrance viable to you to gain access Therefore you wouldn't need that cross crossing pattern Could you show that same sidewalk that you were just describing but on the rendering? Could you just point out where it would be? Yes So I see I see that we have the so you this is this kind of represents the existing walk That goes along the drive the access in above to the east here And and then there's a walk on this grade at higher along the elementary school building That basically goes along along the building and catches up with itself at the point of entry At the sea building school gotcha and the question that you'd asked was would that vegetation Stop you from moving west I have two kids at this facility right now and I'm I can just imagine the kids are gonna it's going to be hard to keep things growing on that that uh Hill there between the drop-off area and the space right there in the circle So what we've got design into the design is go to the land one of the landscape plans We've got Yeah, it's a little hard to read here, but we've got three different plans That you know the different types of tree species that form sort of the allay or the approach to to the facility On the other plan. We've got some shrubs that are all designed to help encourage circulation patterns And then we also have ground cover and and and built into the design that so combination between the landscape walls The steep gradient patterns and the ground cover and pushes Are all sort of developed by the landscape architect with this design to encourage circulation where we want it And avoid some of those shortcut patterns Add one little detail So we're still probably going to have students elementary students entering that the elementary the b building elementary school front entrance in the morning It's just then those doors, you know after the morning Rush those doors will be locked. So really the circulation is Will be from the the visitor parking areas Because the only door that will be open to to you know, somebody visiting the school will be that that's see building entrance I'm just curious only because I go down union street all the time and I see all the kids walking down union street early in the morning Where do they enter the school now? Can you go back to the site plan right? so A building has four points of entry C building has I think five points of entry and and b building which is the elementary school has three points of entry and during the peak period Right before school starts for that 15 20 minute period Uh, a majority of those access points are are open and then that's marty was saying You know at 8 15 or whatever the magic hour is then then they're sort of quasi locked up and then What single point of entry correct? It does um only in terms of the symmetry of the thing You've got this beautiful plaza. You've got this alley, you know coming towards the building And then and you've got this arched walkway to the uh North of this that ends at the access and doesn't continue to the other sidewalk it just Sort of seems and I don't I know you're not dropping people off maybe on that thing But it just seems incomplete not taking in that extra 40 feet to the sidewalk whatever it is right I mean at the top of that curve. Yeah to to wrap this around Yeah, well even straight through to the sidewalk, right? I think the issue is that we're controlling if it goes straight through We have trouble with the grades and you're kind of back into a steered situation or sort of a zigzag pattern of Handicap if you're trying to make it accessible Uh The the the thought process on the study of the of the pattern is if if you're trying to access a school bus Or or or parent car that's picking you up During the day you're being picked up You're you're waiting in the nurse's office or the front administration's offices for that ride And your parents are coming to pick you up and you'd be discharged through the uh the new administration building Which is see which is see if I were working there I would do whatever I could to walk down that alley, right? Evian I think the importance of the plaza is to is to try to Reach out to people to let them understand the new sense and importance of entry that is trying to You know draw the attention of if someone's unfamiliar That that the focus is this is where I enter, you know, because it's drawing you to that spot We we should also just point out the Though it looks like there's lots of emphasis on this sidewalk one one of the main purposes of this sidewalk Is because there's currently a transformer right here So we need to provide access to be ed for that transformer As well as a grand entrance for this transformer Also part of that I should mention is in review with the city fire marshal They want to have emergency access to the buildings So That walk is actually reinforced to handle of First responder vehicle, whether it be bpd or or fire truck to access a building So that's you know another reason for for that feature I also had two kids go through both the elementary and the middle school And I've been I think I've been in and out of all 18 entrances So it also I understand why these improvements are are needed I think that the one comment in the staff report that we need to sort of hold your feet to the fire is on the lot coverage The the school is currently exceeding lot coverage and this is going to increase The non conforming lot coverage. It's by by a minimal amount, but I think we need to What efforts were made to try to do what you needed to do for these purposes? and Not increase the lot coverage Well, some of those efforts are just that where you're noting where it would be nice to have an additional sidewalk space that In order to balance that overall lot coverage. We're not, you know, adding those sidewalks. We're unnecessary Um, and again, we we have them in areas like where we've mentioned that we need them for for service vehicles and or Emergency responders as well as really studying the site to make sure that that overall circulation is As safe as possible for for students to to navigate the site. We're adding a number of sidewalks to the rear of the building and Right now that rear drive right there where randy's pointing out Currently if you're in gym class from the elementary school leaving the gymnasium, you're walking up that rear drive And there's no sidewalk whatsoever and that rear drive is pretty narrow So it's pretty, you know unsafe condition to to to make use of the fields So we're adding a sidewalk and a curb there As well as improving the sidewalk to maple street, which is Currently very narrow and it's pretty it's it's hard to maintain in the winter You have to use a walk behind snowblower and shovel most of it So we're making it water to be able to use a piece of equipment to maintain the The sidewalk. Um, so, you know, we really looked at every area that we could possibly try to carve out green space While balancing the safety of the students to navigate the site and some of the things that We spent quite a bit honestly a lot of money on putting green back if you look at the green areas along along the building here where that's currently paved and It's really providing a very minimal Value to the school district other than keeping water out of the basement, which is an issue we're struggling with So we've got An extensive amount of infrastructure going in below grade to capture the storm water Slow it down set it through the system. So there's an enormous amount of money that's going into Turning that into green space for us. I understand there's a lot going on on a constrained space But again, I needed to make sure that you had done what you needed to do to try to comply a lot coverage I guess Sorry about that Any other questions for the applicant at this point? No I think we've got a pretty good understanding of it We'll close public hearing. Thank you. Thank you question was about deliberating tonight. Um, we have one more agenda item We know that I'm accused from this one. I'm happy to stay if we think we're going to deliver We've got two items. We're not going to deliver a monday and we could deliver a tuesday Which was Do you have problems with tuesday? I can't prove it. Do we deliver a tuesday? I can do this as I'm necessary I'm down in Hanover on tuesday Night Well, we may not take that long. I'll just hang out. We need We have the uvm one and this one. Oh, that's the only two So we were we're going to try to deliver a What are we doing? What are you doing? We're just not north willard. Not willard. No, no, no Because we're not going to have the addition Okay So the next item is sketch plan for the um The hotel why burlington llc 266 college street So this is sketch plan. So we're trying to get an idea of what you're trying to do It may be give you some feedback on what we think it's about um, I'll also note as you're well aware, this is subject in the form base code district so Parts of it fall under that Some parts still fall under the drb's particularly in terms of the height and other things to do with access Could could I give a little preliminary go right forward? Just outline of what The drb is looking at first. This is sketch plan. So it's it's a concept, right? There's No decision. There's feedback. There might be recommendations, but there'll be no decision today So this is part of form district five in the overlay Uh area e for height So there the majority of the project will be subject to administrative review by checklists So the project architects are going to sit down with us and we're going to resolve and talk about all the checklists before this comes back as an application But what the drb is challenged with looking at quite specifically? Is going to be conditional use review Because there is going there is proposed an outside eating area within 100 feet of a residential zoning district That puts it into conditional review major impact standards conditional use review only of the outside eating area or Yes no Yes on the first part no on the second you're looking at conditional use review relative to the outdoor eating area Only because it's within this buffer for residential You're looking at major impact because of the new area that's being proposed It crosses that benchmark for major impact You will be looking at A discretionary review for additional height in this particular part of the form code They are permitted 45 feet in height by Right if they would like to go up to 65 feet, then that's drb discretionary review You will be looking at a request for relief To exceed the 65 feet in height You will be looking at discretionary relief for Failure to meet a required floor to ceiling height on the first floor Form district requires 14 feet for a first floor And this project will be looking at something less than that So that's what we have outlined so far On the height, I'm sure we'll get into this but I got under the old Ordinance there was a height bonus for underground parking. Is that gone now? No, this doesn't apply anymore And one other section. I've just thought of is The historic Structure standards because there is proposed a partial building demolition This building is listed the existing building is on the national register within the main street college street historic district As a contributing resource There Thank you. You stole my introduction Oh, I bet you have more you would have done it better. I'm sure no no. I think that was that was perfect My name is scott silver. Thanks for letting us join you guys tonight So we're here to present our proposal for Cambria hotel at 266 college street in the downtown area You know initially As to the historic piece We are proposing retaining the the four-story dormit building at 266 college and having a separation then Or a continuance behind it to what will be a new structure So we're we're going to ask that we be allowed to demolish The the pool area gymnasium area kind of that that brick in window graffiti Layed in peace to the north We're also going to be Asking your discretion to allow us to full six stories and a little bit above that to get the proper height for a six-story hotel and allow us to have a A very nice rooftop venue with a restaurant and bar on the sixth floor We've also got an existing condition where we want to match the the floor plates in this historic building So we've got to ask for a little relief on the first floor of not going to 14 feet. I think we're at 11 and a half And I think that's pretty much it so I want to introduce Clary Buckley from Smith Buckley architects going to walk you guys through the plan Hi, we're Really excited to be involved with this project I'm going to let the video Run its course and then give you a brief overview of the project and then speak to some of the issues where we're requesting Well, we where we will be requesting relief The overall project is 142 rooms 77 parking spaces of underground two levels of parking And approximately 5,000 square feet of meeting space So I assume everybody's familiar with the existing why The why has been occupying this spot on the corner of college and south union streets for a long time and has been a really valuable member of the community but the building has not been working very well for them for a long time and So they're building their new facility and we've been working really hard to create this new hotel while preserving The piece of the why that's on the corner that we think we can incorporate into the hotel in a successful way And also working really hard to try to make this project work with the form-based Ordinance and live up to the the goals and the spirit of that One of the the main things that We see the form-based ordinance trying to do is to activate the street and to create a more Vibrant streetscape and facilities that are more porous and and interact with the street and you can see that the existing building Both on college street really and um, oops, sorry And on south union Uh, is is very opaque does not engage the street This site on south union Has been renovated a number of times and so Where there were windows have been closed in and the the pool addition to The the north never had windows. It has become a canvas for graffiti now So the The proposal is to remove Well is to keep the gabled structure that's on the corner and remove most of the structure that goes to the north and create our new hotel in that location The drop off for the hotel will be on college street Which we think is the most appropriate place for it because The street is two-way and it's uh, it has a strong connection to the downtown and It's also where we have our entrance and exit to two levels of underground parking so Visitors to the hotel will drop off here In front of the existing entrance Although we're planning to create Sort of a fenced seating area That will help to engage the the streetscape on college street And then Let's see i'm going to go back After dropping off most guests will come around to this main entrance to the hotel Which is right on the corner On the ground floor North north is to the right So college street is here south union is on the bottom This is where the main entrance to the hotel is There will be reception and some lounge space a small meeting room On this ground floor And some back of house features in the middle and then guest rooms will ring The outside of the plan From college street people will be able to come down a ramp into A garage that Has a spiraled deck that goes down We're providing 77 spaces, which is a little bit more than the ordinance requires And we think is appropriate Number for what we need to operate the hotel Going up from the ground floor. This is the second floor and We're planning to Occupy the existing structure with guest rooms, which is consistent with the original use of the y they they used to provide lodging for young men and Then the form of the plan takes Essentially a u-shape with a courtyard facing to the west On the second floor we plan to create a vegetated roof On this level which is going to help us mitigate the storm water and it's also going to Provide a more attractive View for the people that are looking on to this space The third fourth and fifth floors are very similar to this We have plans we can talk about them, but it essentially stacks up The sixth floor when we get above the roof of the existing Y is where we're planning to have a bar and a restaurant and A number of meeting rooms as well as some outdoor terrace areas that look west We've taken a drone out and Gotten it up to about the height where we think this will occur And so you can see that there's there's actually a pretty interesting view up there Some of it is urban roof scape in the foreground, but you do see that rondacks and You know the view is bigger Turn your head, but you can see the lake and the mountains and we think it's going to be A great place to go have a drink for hotel guests, but also anybody in the community can go there So we think that's going to be a great amenity And Let's see so that's that's the overview of of the project We this is kind of a big project that's That's going in the new form-based district. So You know, we're all learning how to interpret that And we've been going through it and really trying to Find solutions that comply and we've submitted a first round of checklists to mary And we understand we need to provide some more documentation, but the first pass we think that this design is Is checking most of the boxes Both in spirit and you know letter of what they're requiring The specific things that We're going to want to Talk to you about and and need your help with One is There's a request or there's a requirement for conditional use for this seating area Correct me if i'm wrong, but I think it's it's this outdoor seating area that's on south union street In the lobby the plan is to have Fairly low-key food and beverage service. There'll probably be some breakfast service down there It's it's not intended to be You know a destination bar or restaurant those things will be on the roof. That's really where we want to focus The activity the social activity of this this hotel But we do anticipate that You know people may Want a quieter spot to drink their coffee or have breakfast and when the weather is nice They will probably be out in this covered area or on college street, but there would be no table service in that location I don't know that It's hard to say we haven't programmed it yet It's likely we would have some service to to those locations although we've got both sides So ultimately the hotel management company, which is host mark will make that determination Part of it will be dependent on the usage pattern Okay, I just want to make sure because you you had stated that there would be light meals So I was wondering you know pick it up a la carte and you choose to sit there Or you would sit down and have you know It really can be a combination because these these types of hotels also will have a small store For lack of a better term, you know where you can have some grab-and-go type of items Obviously there'll be wi-fi so we're going to encourage people to use it as a sort of lounge area As well and and the lobby when you first walk in off of south union will be a loungey Type of scenario. There'll be a pool table. There'll be a shuffleboard table And then there'll be a library as you get toward the back. So We'll encourage that But the the food plan really is that we won't be serving breakfast at the rooftop This will be the breakfast coffee area more than anything Cambria does ask us to have some sort of what based essentially, you know a beer tap You know a light bar, but we as clearly said are going to try and drive the traffic to the sixth floor Thanks So the the next item is That we are proposing to demolish part of the historic structure And let's see. I'm going to pause this and go back to Still images So you can see that This This part of the building is actually original It was I think it was the pool and it's the gymnasium now But the one A series of renovations and filling in windows and things like that have have Made it not very functional Um, it also has Many different levels in it. I think the y currently has In excess of 20 different floor levels, which is one of the big challenges that the y has had in trying to occupy this building But um Also any, you know Viable development of the site is going to require parking and right now The site is almost entirely covered the y has about seven spaces that are located On the west side down in the ravine There's no they're used for employees, but there's no visitor parking there, which which is an existing problem and one that We need to fix and so The only solution that That we think works is to create this underground parking Which really requires that we demolish a significant part of the building so Those are um Those are some functional reasons why we feel like This needs to come down and then we also feel like our design really is Much more in keeping with the intent of the form-based ordinance and the goals of the city to have an active and engaged streetscape You can see that even if you You know took the brick out of these windows. They would be above people's heads and Not very effective at accomplishing that goal Let's see the um I just Clearly the new facade the east facade of the hotel that's taking the place of the of this existing Are you in the same plane as the existing one? Are you further west? Uh, not exactly in the the same plane, but it is close and we are Let's see Well, it's hard to see in these stills and you can see it a little bit in the animation We are preserving a bit of the historic connector that that Transitions from The gabled part of the building to the flat roof piece you can see here This this line is the edge of the gable And this is an existing Flat roof piece that then transitions into that Block that we want to take down that's I believe that the The facade of it is a little closer to the street Then we're proposing for this part of the building. I was just trying to follow that and then you've got the the far North end Must be ready right in line with the edge of the pool. I'm assuming it's right on the property line. Yeah And the form base ordinance does have some criteria for How far you can be away from the curb and how far you can be away from the property line and What type of frontage? That's above our pay grade here. Well Um I prefer to think below We think we've got a good good solution, but you know, there there is a puzzle That that's done to make that work So let's see the mary mentioned that um in this district we're allowed four stories and 45 feet by right and then The drb has discretion to allow six stories and 65 feet And um the criteria for that are that the building emphasizes verticality and provides interest at a pedestrian level Step backs are used to reduce the perceived height and upper stories retain sky views so We think that this design is effective at Meeting those criteria We are asking for well Pauses for just a moment and so in in this section south union street is on the right and The average grade plane is actually along Along the streets is a little below our first floor so that Makes the 65 feet, you know a little bit lower than where we would like it um At the street edge We step back at the fifth floor And then the the roof edge at the sixth floor would be at 69 foot six So uh four foot four and a half feet above the 65 foot mark, which is 6.92 percent and I I Note the percentages because um You guys are allowed by the ordinance to uh give relief of an additional up to an additional 20 percent on this um Further back to the west over the restaurant We would like to pop the roof up To 72 and a half feet so Seven and a half feet above the 65 which is 11.54 percent and The reason for that is that It will give us a little flexibility with mechanical equipment for the kitchen Uh, it'll allow us to create some Variations ceiling heights in that space and we think it will Just give us the ability to make a more dynamic and fun place to to be and you'd have an elevator Top and some mechanical equipment. That's probably higher than this We'd we well the know the So south union is at the bottom of the page college streets here The part that we want to pop up To 72 and a half is actually the same height as the elevator overrides and it is only In this area back here, so You will not perceive it from the street uh Something that we have Done preemptively Is that on the sixth floor you can see this space is labeled cooling tower and so What we're proposing to do is actually Put the the cooling tower which is a big piece of equipment on the sixth floor and You can see that here And have it screened within the mass of the building so that um We're not asking for relief to go higher with the roof and then sticking You know at 12 or 14 foot tall piece of equipment on top of the roof in addition to that They've also designed the the top floor with the floor-to-ceiling glass so that it is Unobtrusive, you know, it's not a big massive wall. It's uh, it's set back and You know with the glazing we think that that uh, you know creates An environment where it's unobtrusive not to mention the fact that you're really not going to be able to see it from the street regardless Do you have any views of how that relates to the church or across the street? From that view it makes it seem like the church is taller, but if It's going to be closer than that based on that street view I'm not sure if these photos address that but um Um This gives you a sense of the scale of the church relative to the y I think the church sits up on the site a little bit higher than the y but it's um And the steeple is is quite tall, but the the main roof I think is um Similar height to the y probably Thank you um, and so Would you like to see some model studies for that harris? Would you be requesting some modeled studies for those building adjacent building heights? Not at this time. I I think in the middle. Yes We want to see some relative thing about the height of this relative to the church of just going to see that elevation and so Some of the the factors that have gone into requesting the added height is that uh, the site is Is tricky tight urban site Parking Below grade and the the grade level is not right at the first floor And We are Well, we're we're excited about the hotel the the rooftop bar and restaurant and In order to get the views that we think are really going to make it a dynamite place to be You know, we need to be able to see above the roofs. So that's um an important consideration for us Let's see And then uh, the last item that we need your help with uh is The ordinance requires that the ground floor to floor height be 14 feet and The existing floor to floor height of the y is 12 foot 7 and a quarter Which um So Because we want to maintain the y and connect our floors to it We would like to match that floor to floor height In in an ideal world if we were building new we would love to have 14 feet or more on the ground floor You know that that would be great, but But we're kind of stuck with the the building that we have You are the the variance is um 10.57 percent which you are allowed to give relief Beyond that so um, that's something else that we will be asking you to consider right Mary what again what might be helpful on that is I'm not quite sure why that requirement is in the ordinance why the It has to be the 14 feet is has to do with what the exterior looks like Does the city care about what the floor height is on the interior side again in deciding whether to Wave that I guess I'd like to under make sure I understand the purpose of the requirement in the first place That's not something I remember looking at Right you're looking for an answer now or upon When we are asked to make our decision on this that would be relevant and I sitting here right now I'm not sure I could explain to anybody Why we require the 14 feet so I would want to have that in mind So no I do not need an answer right now But it would seem that the relevance of matching the existing floor height would matter So I think that would be uh something that one would try to A comedy I would think I don't know if we've ever been asked to wave that before so it's not I think it's a new requirement. Yeah, all right. It's not an exercise that we've been through so we may need a little help I I don't think you've Seen many projects. No go through this process either. So I I'm not sure that I can tell you why 14 feet is required It doesn't seem like a bad thing, but I I don't So I'm hoping that Scott or Mary will provide that I suspected it has to do with the traditionally first floor Downtown spaces are quite tall and substantial and I think it's sort of in that ilk and how it affects the exterior Walking by but I I guess I don't know if you have a lot more to go through So I I I have a couple of questions on this and um You know, I think it's nice project. I think it looks good. I it's exciting all this kind of stuff the the entry the entrances college street The former's code tries to have activity on the street The activities on union street looks even on your renderings was much more substantial than the activity on college street The entrance really looks like it's on union street. Even the cars are driving on college street It seems a bit of a dilemma. So I and it doesn't quite You know look right to me when I look at it and um You know, I don't know I I suppose you've looked at that and you've got a reason you came up to it Then I I guess I'll also throw in that I think in general the massing I think works with the historic building There's something about how it works with that corner facade and entering on the Looks to me like the entrances on the east side of that historic part of the building it is and um so The existing entrance to the y which you is over here Is is very narrow and it's up Between four and five feet above the sidewalk and it's it's not It will not work for I don't entrance people. I'm not questioning that I'm just I'm Trying to sort of take you through some of the How we've gotten here because because we would love to have the drop off in the entrance on college street right there, but um, but we have an existing structure that we're trying to preserve and respect so um And There was a lot of talk about where to have the drop off We really think that college street is the right place to do this Largely because the traffic is two-way and south union street is A one-way street. It has a dedicated bike lane in it which makes the street narrow Um, there there is short-term parking there, but if you've ever been by the y at pickup or drop off time You know, that's that's uh I think that would not be effective place to have the drop off plus you would have Cars after people dropped off their guests or registered or taxis Would have to then circle back through the neighborhood or you know Make a loop which so and The place where we can get the entrance to the garage Is on college street as well. We think that's really the best place. It's it's uh, we're taking advantage of the downward slope of the street So these are a lot of the thinking that's a lot of the thinking that's gone into having the drop off on college The canopy um, the intent of that is to help signal that That there is something happening at the corner and help to draw people Around to that side We think that it will be effective And the approach to entering at this location This low gable historic form Is challenging to make Into you know A prominent entrance for you know a new hotel and we looked at a lot of options and ultimately This approach that we think Will work is that we're going to clad the existing brick structure with a metal panel And bring the canopy around it But behind the metal The existing brick will remain And so when you walk into this vestibule, you'll still see The existing brick structure of the why and you know, if someday you wanted to pull the metal off and see what was there It's it's still there. So we're kind of leaving it We we are definitely making a bigger entrance into the front of it, but we're leaving the form intact And allowing people to read the historic form It's just got a new a new form that's sort of Slipping by and wrapping it Were you suggesting to have the entrance on college like where the old entrance is? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm just saying I to me there's a A dilemma inherent in what you're doing and I'm not saying it's resolvable But I just think it's it's a challenge and that's I hear clearly going through it. I just You know the dynamic side is on union street And I don't know how effective that little I like the terrace on college street Um, I just I don't know how you resolve it I mean, I think I agree with you about the entrance to the parking garage that that makes sense where it is and When people get dropped off, I mean, you know, it's sort of like they don't even They're not dropped off in front of the entrance to the building You know, well Understood. I think there's an opportunity To make the historic Y building part of the identity of this hotel I do you agree with that? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it it is a challenge, you know, and there's several factors, right? You got the one-way street You've got a residential neighborhood on the right hand side and you know currently the traffic is really challenging with the existing Y and Because of the grade of the site it kind of dictated we go this way and we needed You know, frankly, just, you know, it all costs to stay away from the back of the hotel and the parking lot And all the activity having to do with the city market So, you know, we there was a lot of a lot of moving pieces to get where we are How many um cars can fit in the drop-off area? Is it a one car thing or two? so three cars And you can see in the the site plan that Currently the the sidewalk edge is here and there's There's parking in this zone We're proposing to do a curb bump out here That doesn't reduce the width of the street But it takes up space where Parking is now And it's consistent with a lot of the things that have been happening around the city with plan btv walk bike Reducing the crosswalk distance Is safer for pedestrians and it helps define this drop-off parking area but But this line is is not doesn't make college street any narrower than it is now It's the same width And we have met with dpw and technical review and They've expressed support for this. Oh, I think those bump outs make a lot of sense. They see they seem quite helpful for that It's just I I don't know what the I just think I'm saying that it'd be nice if there's some visual a little bit more visual kind of guide to getting from the third car West on college street to the front door of the hotel And when you've never been there before and you pull up and you try to think where you're going It's it's not Like I said, it's it's nice. I I I think people are gonna want to go in that little door there We um You know the signage will be another permit and and I don't think we want to get into it too much but We do anticipate asking for some type of Monument sign You know somewhere near the the corner that will Of course, we would like the architecture to You know, well the canopy might give all the clues, but the canopy might be able to do a little more Because it sort of ends right now and splits, you know, and it could extend a little further You know the canopy that's over the actual entrance Ends and it's you know, maybe that went further. I don't know. We don't we don't have to have the answers That's that our job I don't want to be this one does too, but I share the same concerns. I aesthetically I like And I think it's appropriate to have The drop off where it is with the parking garage and and but I think that there I think you'll have faced two challenges one human behavior That naturally you may just pull up in front of the door because that's where you if you see the sign for the hotel You pull up to the sliding glass doors or whatever would be there Because that's what you do at almost any hotel, but I've been to so there would be that piece because you may be entering it from Main street, most likely if you're a visitor And then second with the three cars Only having three cars in the drop-off area and then having to walk That distance around and in you may find at a peak checking time That there are three cars that are left unoccupied and more of your customers wanting to find a place to drop off And which would then create traffic issues on both both streets So just I'm sure you've considered it, but I imagine there would be more questions for you along those areas uh It seems likely that that will happen at times We have done a traffic study and And I guess I'll I was gonna say you don't have to have the answers tonight. No, I understand, but the more information we can give you You know, hopefully the quicker we can Get through it next time We think that overall The impact on traffic is going to going to be As good or or better than what exists. There is a The why I mean is a very busy everybody comes at once I had both of my kids in daycare there It's I can't imagine you making things worse We're gonna make it better and the why has Really high demand concentration times which You know create real issues A hotel is not likely to have that kind of concentrated demand Well, except that I think check-in time might be happening around city market nightmare time, which is like, you know Pretty much it is all the time, but it's I think particularly bad in the evening The typical usage in a hotel, you know, the check-ins really happened throughout the day and Our biggest our peak demand for parking is overnight When basically everything else is empty And that's you know, because if someone has a car, they're typically going to use it during the day and Our yard lot will be full at night, but you know daytime. We don't expect there'll be much of an impact and You know, typically these things get scattered throughout the day plus, you know, we believe we only need about 75 spaces operationally A lot of people will be coming to the hotel, you know by cab uber I understand that the college streets shuttle will ultimately go to the airport You know, we are also having a discussion about having a shuttle ourselves, you know directly as well. So Uh, there's no time like, you know, the white experiences now where you've got a thousand people trying to get in or out Yeah, I mean we do hear that from hotels that most people arrive and depart by cab or whatever And how many just how many guest rooms are there? 142 Thanks so the Visuals of the building are somewhat again, they're form-based. So we're not going to get into that too much But I will say that in the actual presentation for the submittal It would be really great to see this in context not just with the church across the street, but from south wanouski That was one thing in the flyby that the West side of the building to me Seems like it's going to be visible quite visible from Not just the city market parking lot, but from south wanouski. So it'd be nice to see what that thing really looks like and For all the care that's happened on other parts of the building that side is somewhat Orphaned at the moment and it seems like it may could you benefit from a little bit more attention? Well, we're also going to have you know in the green space there. We're going to have some kinetic art as well That's up on the on the second floor. Yeah, but I think the whole Well, that's what I say if we could see what it looks like from from the street side and and from the parking lot It'd be great to to see all the way around the building from the rest of the city And that will also help us understand the idea of getting to the 65 plus seven Is that right? 65 plus seven and a half which you know, maybe eight or whatever, but um Just understand that in context and you know So we can see how that looks sure just to clarify the rooftop Restaurant not only because I'm excited about it, but is it going to be open to the public? I'm just curious. Absolutely. Yeah, we're going to do everything we can to engage the city to come to the hotel and use it as a venue if you know Any smart hotelier would do the same thing. Yeah, and we want to be a very exciting venue for Whether it be businesses or the the schools, you know, or certainly just anyone who's in town to come and use and enjoy And so the um the parking analysis included that Kind of engagement with non hotel users Host mark is our hotel management company when we were exploring this initially we were they determined that they needed 75 spots and for um traffic analysis as well Did that include the restaurant being open to the public? I would have a question. Um, Mary Restaurants downtown that they don't have to have parking. Do they in the central business? So yeah, so disregard the parking I actually meant just traffic Yeah Traffic and parking Off in their hand in hand. Yes. Yes I'm glad we had an opportunity to to really get our teeth into this and um Although we've done form district review on a handful and staff administratively more than that But this is the big test this whole building that we're looking at is in a form district review area Um, we're already seeing on checklist. There's some places that the form districts are chafing With this design So it will be important for staff to be working with their design team and see You know where where there might be areas that will have to tweak and that might have to do with their building frontages There are limitations on widths and and lengths of bays and and and the canopy is is been vexing Us for about two weeks So we're going to have to work with the design team and if it comes back a little bit different After we do that then I wouldn't be surprised Mary do we um Have jurisdiction over traffic flow? I mean you mentioned like the historic the height The restaurant first floor 14 feet. Is that something we even consider the traffic impact major impact under major impact Okay, so the traffic study that we did Um incorporated all uses of the building. Okay, so including like the public using the restaurant. Oh, yes. Absolutely. Yeah Thanks, and there was no materially impact whatsoever Yeah with the study and I'm assuming if we haven't given you a copy we will Yeah, cool. Thank you All right. Well, this is sketch plan. So just we've sort of dived into some of the little details, but just as for general feedback, it's just It's great to have a project that comes up with a great adaptive reuse for a really handsome facade of the why the old part I personally have great affection for the program pool just because I spent so many hours there with my kids But again, I understand it doesn't have the same Historical significance as the front which you've done a great job preserving And it just it's it's a downtown infill project there. It's always hard to squeeze density, which is what the city wants in a constrained city block so that you've At least got a great start on figuring out some of those issues and the Problem always comes from some of the details, but in in concept. This looks like a great use on a and a good design Thank you So one of the questions too is you know, you're looking for feedback from us I mean you feel like you're getting some feedback and some information that's helpful as you move on to the next step Yeah, I think yeah, I think there's some things that you know Look great. We you know, we need a little bit more justification so we can Say, yeah, that works. There's some things we have questions about and some of them You know as the access just may be a challenge that you got to get comfortable with I was obviously the hotel's got to work if you're going to invest in it. It's not it's not ideal, right? But we're dealing with the existing why structure, you know, if we if we leveled the whole thing it would be a different You know concept, but you know, look, we love the four-story building. It gives it a lot of character So we really like that aspect of it So we've tried to work, you know within those constraints as as best we possibly can and I frankly think it looks great And I'll I'll echo that. I mean I um, I'm not a design expert like you brad, but it is a beautiful preservation of that historic building and Would greatly improve that corner corner. So um, yeah, nice nice job on that Thank you. You know, I think you know, I went to uvm So I've been coming up here for a while. I have a son that went to shamp plain and still lives in town So and this is a long-term investment. I'm not here to you know develop it and flip it I'm going to be here for quite some time and you know, so we're excited about it. I love this town and I think it's you know, frankly, you'll be a great addition to the city Yeah, there's no other venue similar to this and and it gives all those folks coming in to you know A really contemporary place to stay that they're going to be comfortable at and drive business to the downtown instead of Out to South Burlington. Yeah, that's great I don't feel inclined to answer this, but if we're just giving feedback I at every juncture so far that I've seen or talked to anyone about this once it was released to the public Is the um, the market and clearly I work in finance. I understand markets. Um, you believe that there's demand Yeah, so we did a study, you know, we went to smith travel research And we had a they're called a star report So we had a star report pulled it and it read as I expected, you know, the market is very strong I also have an affiliation with interstate hotels that owned and currently runs the hilton And I know how that performs and you know, there's absolute demand in this space within the market I you know, we had an opportunity someone came to us to develop a hotel at the airport I said absolutely not, you know, I would not do that with anybody's money. This is not going to work This is not going to pencil The downtown this works if we can achieve what we're trying to get here today. Yeah, I know I agree Anecdotally, I can see why people would say that but when I bring my whole company here And we need 10 rooms at the hotel vermont. They're very difficult to get so yeah Okay Well, it's the sovereignty hearing but uh sketch plan I look forward to seeing the next iteration after your many conversations with staff on the Forum base as you help everybody get better at it We think we're close though I mean, I'm I don't anticipate it's going to come back wildly Changed Thank you. This has been thank you very much. Thanks for your time appreciate it Do we have to act on this tonight? I need to be signed tonight So we can do that under the deliberative Whenever, okay, so we're going to close the public hearing We're adjourned Hey, um