 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast on Plus TV. I hope you're having one for morning wherever it is you're watching us from. And of course, that you enjoyed the show. Like we say, just take it easy. If you're at home, you can take a cup of tea or coffee and relax. And I'm soaking the wonderful analysis coming away. And talking of analysis, we have an interesting guest up next to do justice to the next topic. I'll introduce her in a bit. But let's quickly give you a background. We look at unemployment in the country and what it means to lose a job in Nigeria. The country has been ranked the third-west place in the world for workers to be laid off. Nigeria ranked the third-west country with a 1.19 over 10 layoff score behind Puerto Rico, and the United States of America, according to a report published by Lancer, a career advisory website. The report explained that despite enforcing the 4 over 9 redundancy rules, Nigeria still does not guarantee employees any severance package on being laid off. The report claims that after a year of employment, businesses in Nigeria give employees at least a week's notice before firing them. This is what it said. In third place, Nigeria ranks Nigeria with 1.19 over 10 layoff score. Nigeria enforces a 4 over 9 redundancy rule. However, it still does not guarantee you any severance package. So the report will at least get a notice period one week for employees with a one-year tenor and 4.3 for employees with over 5. Also on the list of worst nations for workers to get laid off behind Nigeria and New Zealand, Djibouti, United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Romania, Austria and Bosnia and Herzegovina. We're glad to say joining us to analyze this is a professor, Biola Woshika-Fapetu, educationist, and she joins us as we assume in Lagos, or from Lagos. Prof, good morning to you, and thank you very much for your time. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Yes indeed. Prof, I mean, looking at the headline, you know, Nigeria ranking third-west in the world jumps out at one and obviously gives some reasons to be worked because nobody wants to be third-west at anything. But I see that we behind the United States and Puerto Rico, not back company, some would say. As a matter of fact, when we get into such company as this, I wonder about the data when we're lumped with the United States and Puerto Rico, which are probably essentially the same because Puerto Rico is a part of the United States. I worry about the data. I'm probably going to assume that this is only referring to our public sector employment because we have about 720,000 in the public service. That is less than 1% of us. And at the time when this data was collected, this was at the height of the COVID-19 Palava. And so a lot of the small, medium enterprises that employ most of us are in trouble. They're laying people off. They're cutting jobs. But these people are only going to think of how they're going to survive. They're not going to think of, you know, how am I going to now start paying people when I don't even have money to keep them in my employment? So I think we probably are not taking into account the fact that the majority of us, 89. something percent, almost 90%, work for medium and small enterprises. And these are the worst-hit organizations. And so they cannot afford the severance pays. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, I've been in Nigeria and in the employment market in Nigeria for about 10 to 12 years now. And you know what? Our people don't know what is called, you know, how to give notice. So they don't give you notice. They just walk away. So how do you give that kind of a person a severance pay when they just walk away? So they don't understand the system. And the policy is not strong enough to be imbibed by the small and medium enterprises who hire most of the people. And what the points, one nine percent that they got is probably from the public sector, which hires only 720,000 as a 2022. So I think that's the major problem is letting the people know what the policies are. The employees keeping to those policies and the employers being held to the policies. But right now, I don't think we're there. Right. Indeed, you raised some questions about the the veracity of this statistic. And, you know, I think these are questions that need to be asked because some things are a bit not too clear about the ranking. But I think we can we can agree, you know, if we want to just overlook some of the questions that hover around this report, I think we can agree about the the reality for Nigerian workers. So for workers in Nigeria, a lot of people are at work today. Yes, they don't have. People don't have jobs. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, please Pofgone. Yeah, I mean, folks who do need jobs, new jobs, don't have it. And so, and we're now saying rather than employ new or fresh people, we should put some money aside to be taking care of people who we had to lay off or who left. The whole thing is modeled up until we have a good system where when you get out of university or whatever training you had, you walk into the job market and you know, you're hired, you get employed as some of the money that we're getting from you is being put aside so that we can take care of people who might lose their jobs. We don't have anything like that. And so, and even the United States, that we're supposed to be in the same category as they are, they still even have some things, you know, for people to fall back on. They have they have unemployment benefits that they give their people. And yet, we're ranked at, you know, at the same level. So it just bothers me that, you know, we don't have the strong policies and the strong system that will help people who get out of a job, not to talk of people who don't even have jobs at all. Indeed. So these realities are there. Like you said, you know, the reality for love of Nigerian workers is that it's almost as safe as the employees. I mean, you've worked and lived outside the country. You know how, you know, how we have strong laws and strong rules about employment. You can't just employ people and treat them anyhow. You have a minimum wage. If it's per hour, they pay to pay them per hour. If it's per month, they pay to pay them per month and you stick to that minimum wage. In Nigeria, you know, I'm speaking as a worker, it's almost as if, you know, just getting the job is a favor. And you just have to accept whatever comes your way, you know. People are giving contracts and employees don't stick to the terms of those contracts. So we see a situation where, and I'm not saying you can't ask a worker to, you know, to pull in and try and help a company through difficult times, but it's almost sticking as for granted and as a given that they can tell you to do anything. You know, so when you have a contract that says this is what it's supposed to do as a specific ABC, they can tell you, I'm paying you XYZ amount of money for doing ABC. They can say do, you know, XYZ, add more, five more things to your portfolio and you have to do it because it's almost as if, if you don't do it, then we're going to look for someone else to do it and you should be thankful that you have a job. You know, so workers seem to have no rights in this country. I mean, I'm going to pour my heart out to you as a worker. We have Nigerian workers and I think that the labor laws are skewed against workers and in favor of the companies and give, in their loopholes, even though we have strong laws, their loopholes, you can't even hold a company, take them to court, you know, that's one. Okay. The whole idea of feeling, you know, that you're being given a favor because you gave it this job, you should just be thankful that you have a job. The second thing is that a lot of workers are owed. Some companies owe workers, you know, two months, three months, a lot of workers don't get paid on time. And in other parts of the world, you can't try it. You know, if you, it's a lot of responsibility. That's the second thing workers face. They don't get paid on time, no communication, no email, nothing, you know, from the employers. You know, the third thing is, is they make you sign contracts. Some, some of them make you sign contracts to stop it from unionizing. They tell you you can't be part of a union. You know, you can't, you can't work for any, like when the media industry, you can't work for any station for six months if you leave us. You know, some of them would, would, would make you, of course, you have to sign and you have to stick to the rules. It's even there that you give maybe a month or two months notice as the case may be before you leave, which is the right thing to be done, like you said. But some companies will fire you won't give you even a week's notice. And then of course, it talked about the severance package. So what I thought some, some of the things I've talked about that workers in Nigeria go through. Unfortunately, when there are no consequences for breaking the law, then the law is, the law is not enforced. There has to be consequences. And if you cannot form a union, unfortunately, when you're, when you're, you're asked to leave, you don't have money. And so you can't go to court. And if you sign an agreement that says you can't join a union, then that is very unfortunate because now you're up a creep without a paddle. So we have to start with enforcement. Even pensions that employees are supposed to have a lot of employers don't give those pensions such that even when the employer has to leave, you know, you give them a month in a month ahead and then you pay the pension that, you know, they have either contributed to or not. But you know, they don't, you don't get some employers don't even pay that. And unless there is a way that we can enforce some of this, you know, nine severance policies, then I don't think the lot of the employee in Nigeria is going to improve because once they leave, they don't have anything and they can't take action unless they find a pro bono lawyer that's going to take up their cause. But then if you get a pro bono lawyer that takes up one or two causes, maybe we'll put them on notice. But unless that happens, I don't think because employers are mostly small and medium enterprises. They're so small that, you know, they can't survive if they're now, they're holding up that asking people to leave because they don't have any money to keep the business going. A lot of businesses closed down during the 2020 COVID-19 problems. And that is, it's simply because they cannot fund their existence. So how do you now tell them to fund the existence of an employee that they no longer even get anything out of? So it's a conundrum, you know, that we have to, you know, sit back as a nation and say, what do we do for these people? Do we start an unemployment program where you can apply once you lose your job and have the government pay you for so many months until you get a job? Do we make it a government thing? Otherwise, it's difficult. Indeed, indeed. You made a case for the companies, which is, I mean, it's a good one because the companies are going through difficult times, you know, but I, I mean, sometimes we'll have little to no sympathy for them because some workers kill themselves, you know, for the companies. And for me, I must, I mean, if I want to be playing with you, I got fired in the middle of, in fact, in the middle of the pandemic, I got caught by company. I was telling so on the story, you know, the later a lot of people go, and I think it was, it was too premature. I think it was unfair because some of us had worked in the company for nine years, almost ten years, you know. Personally, I was the, I was the longest serving staff, and this just said, oh, you know what, the economy may take a down swing, so we have to let people go, and they caught me. Now, to refer to the company, I got the severance package, and that helped me greatly. I helped people, but there are a lot of other companies that don't have such a rake. I range from this is a properly run company, you know, but what was a bit of a, you know, disadvantage. I signed a, I was made to sign a contract, you know, that said I couldn't work for any other media organization for, I think, about six months. Yeah, so you see, you see, so, but you've said the companies go through a lot, and it's not easy to be a business owner in Nigeria, definitely. But should we have, you know, sympathy for the companies where you need to know, okay, this is how it is to be in business, and if you are not ready to be in business, don't get into it because you have to pay salaries. Doc, because, you know, some people start businesses, I can speak of media businesses, without a plan. They want to make money within two weeks, you know, within the first month, and then they get people's kids, you know, people's fathers and mothers, into the company without a plan, and then after one month it's okay, we're not making money, we can't pay you. I think that is that. Yes, so, yeah, yes, please. Yeah, well, you can't tell people not to start businesses, because when they start, excuse me, when they start, they have a home. They think it's gonna go well, but then when, for example, a COVID-19 happens, what do you do? And I think the employees, I think the employees also, you know what you were doing when you were signing a non-compete or non-compete clause in your contract, and you're hoping you didn't have to compete with your employer. That's why you signed it. And so, you have to look at it both ways. The employer has no business not paying you, and you have no business competing with your employer if you signed that you will not be competing with them. So it's a case of who gives in first, the employer or the employee. I think the reason why they let people go is because they cannot afford it. I mean, if you started business for a month and then you fold up, that is very sad, because you probably didn't put any thought into that business. But, you know, if you, I mean, it is proven that, you know, if you survived the first two years, you will be able to stay in that business. And then if you survived the first five years, you have come to stay. So businesses that are in their early years, you cannot hold them to the problem of not being able to pay severance to the employees. But if you have grown enough and you are strong enough, you have no business not paying severance to your employees. Prof, I'd like you to take a breather. I'll ask the next question if you have some water. Maybe you can just drink a little. But sorry about that. That's fine. I'm fine now. So yes, you said indeed. But Prof, sometimes the workers, you look at, okay, what do you have to do? I'm a realist. I like being real. And sometimes you look at, okay, can I do without this job? Do I need it? And lovable approach jobs from a point of need. And that's what is on contracts like you cannot unionize, for instance. You know, so I don't know if government needs to look into this. But I'll read section four of the Labor Act, the Niger Labor Act. It says, subsection one says, no employer may make to a wage in excess of one month. I'm trying to get a place where it says it gives some protection to the workers. But there are laws, there are provisions in the Labor Act that talk about how long you can hold a worker, the severance packages that must be paid, they call it in lieu. So if the worker doesn't give you notice and just leaves, you don't pay them anything. If the worker gives the sufficient notice according to law, the worker does not give you notice, the worker has to pay you for the in lieu of the month. Yes, yes. And then if you want to start the worker, you have to give severance package. And if you don't give them notice, you immediately, of course, you pay them in lieu of the notice, which is what was done for me. And my company did that perfectly, excellently. So for those who don't give notice, excellently. So for those who don't do this, who don't stick to this law, should the government be, you know, rejigging the laws to enforce fines on them and to protect the workers? Because many workers don't have the money to go to the National Industrial Court. The funds, they don't have that. Well, unfortunately, if you can't go to court with your employer, I don't see what your recourse would be. Because the law is there. They know, I mean, I just recently someone told me I'm going to leave you in about 30 days. And I immediately think she should leave now. Because I don't want her to be with the rest of the employees and start polluting the system. There's nothing we're doing that is, you know, against the law. But I just want to keep the sanity of my people, so that we don't have any. And immediately I paid her in lieu of notice. I paid her pension. I paid her everything that I over. And then told her to leave immediately. Now, because we know what the law said, a lot of companies don't know. And here's ignorance of the law is no excuse. So if you can take one or two people to court and you can win, then people will be unnoticed to know that if I iterate my people, this is what is going to happen to me. I'm quite sure that if one or two companies are made the scapegoat under this law because we have laws. It's not like we don't. We have laws but we're not following it. So let's make sure that we do follow these laws and how we would do it without the courts I don't know. Is there because I mean the government did some things to help some workers. I know that some monies were paid to teachers. In fact, some schools received a request from the government to apply for funds that were shared to teachers because teachers were at home during the pandemic they were not laid off but the schools couldn't cope they couldn't pay because fees were not coming in. It was difficult time for some businesses like you said. Is there a role government can play to make it easier for people, professionals and workers who are let go, who have lost their jobs to survive. Is that something Nigerians can look in? You mentioned a little bit like the welfare system we have in the United States and other parts of the world. That's number one. Number two. How can government support do you foresee a situation where government can support businesses in times of difficulty to stay afloat and to pay salaries at least if you have emergencies like a pandemic. And you know this government actually did some of that. My school is actually one that benefited from the government's solution. The support that they gave some categories of industries and education was one of them and I applied. I didn't know anyone. I just put all my information online and they called me they called my employees and they paid the school some amount of money for three months and they also paid some of my employees for three months during COVID. So yes the government should be on standby to help companies to help them survive because they are the main state of this economy the higher the greater percentage of us. If you take 720,000 out of 200 million it's not even 1%. Those are the civil servants and the public workers. The rest of us are in the private sector. So they need to keep the private sector moving and afloat and they did some of that but they need to do more. The word I'm hearing in my head is stimulus packages in some countries government was giving companies money to help them stay afloat loans and grants to help them stay afloat. I'm happy you were a recipient of the federal support and you were able to give us a practical experience. Nigerian workers are not as protected as they should be by the laws. If you look at overtime a lot of workers work overtime without a cobble for that overtime. Thank you very much for your time. You sound like a good employer who would really be happy to work for things you've said. Professor Biola Awushika is an educationist and she's been a guest on the first discussion this morning on purpose. Prof thank you for your time. Thank you so much. All right the rights of workers really we can't talk enough about that and how workers really go through a lot just to survive in this country. I think government needs to do more. The laws are skewed. The labor laws are skewed in the favor of the companies and doesn't protect workers as much. We'll take a break now and when we return we look at a projection by we'll look at the situation between the headers and farmers. The crisis has been there for years and the federal government is seeking long term solutions to ensure that this is solved. We'll talk about this when we return. Please stay with us.