 Dean Nelson and thank you for watching Planet of the Courageous. In the Tibetan tradition it is thought we picked to be born on this planet to courageously face our fears, anxiety and insecurities. By facing and leaning into our fear and our insecurities with courage and it does take bravery, we've learned on the other side of these challenges is our innate wisdom and compassion. In the Hawaiian paradigm you could say we are built from Aloha. With this Aloha in our hearts and mind we can skillfully and courageously benefit our communities in the world all together. Today I'm pleased to have a brother from another mother with us. He walks his talk having focused his life work as a lawyer speaking for the underprivileged and advocating mediation and listening from the other person's point of view versus being right and adversarial. As a young lawyer fresh out of Notre Dame he became a fellow of the Robert Kennedy Memorial Foundation. A cadre of lawyers who are sort of Peace Corps of Lawyers asked to serve our underprivileged and the indigenous First Nations people. He worked as a lawyer for the Lakota Sioux and South Dakota and the Eupiat in Alaska. He hails literally from the streets of Little Italy in the 50s which was a setting that the movie Godfather was based on. Through a Securitas journey documented in his very readable autobiography book peacemaking a Sicilian American memoir. He was drawn to the mixing pot of our beautiful Hawaii. Aloha, Tom. Aloha, brother. You got Sicilian right? I'm very proud of you. Thank you for the tutelage on that. Let's do one breath for ourselves and one breath for mankind. Just start the peace right here, brother. Let's hope for our world, brother. I can feel my bogus nerve coming back. Tom, it's just such an interesting read the memoir that you wrote and you hail from Little Italy and you describe it as a pretty dysfunctional and violent place. So in a thumb sketch kind of tell us how you came to peacemaking as your life's work. Well, when you say dysfunctional that's quite true. Violence was a daily occurrence. If you were a student like I was and serious about your studies you had to dodge the bullies. People who would shake you down and just beat you up for the hell of it. And when you grow up in a culture like that as a young boy especially with a father like the kind of father that I had who was a peacemaker and came from a tradition of peacemaking that went back to how ancestral roots in Sicily. My father would always point out that there was another way and would demonstrate that, walk the talk himself. And so I had that influence and then on the other side of course there was the dysfunction in the streets but there was the highly functional family unit and so I had tremendous support from and I was probably the youngest of all the cousins in the extended family. So I had all of that support of generations of people behind me just coaching me, pushing me, fathering and mothering me to lead the life of a peacemaker. And so it was ingrained pretty early on that there was another way. There was another way meaning adversarial fighting, violence, always being right, top-down. Might makes right. Wonderful. So you know one of the things that we talked about on the way down here was quite a powerful moment for you with a very infamous or famous lawyer named Ray Cohen. Roy. Roy Cohen. Who actually turns out to be a lawyer for another famous person, President Trump. Number 45. Yes. Number 45. But there was a moment when you were seven and you actually visited him with your mother I believe to try to plead a case for a cousin. That kind of was the seminal thing where some light went off and said I'm going to protect the underprivileged. Can you talk about that? Well, what's cool about writing your memoir is that you get to revisit those experiences and the psychologists call it a moment that's called a flash bulb experience that's imprinted on you for the rest of your life. Yeah, the brain memorizes that way. Absolutely. And I just as we're talking, I go right back to that room in the federal courthouse in New York. Yeah. So no one in my family had gone beyond the eighth grade of my father and mother's generation and they had been raised with Sicilian as their first language. And however, my mother always had kind of the mouth in the family and was the articulate one and had the nerve, as they said. And so when my uncle was arrested on probably he was among the worst counterfeiters in the whole world. They were counterfeited some money that looked like monopoly money, you know. And he was arrested and he was a young man, had never been in trouble before with the police. But his older brother, my older uncle, had been in and out of jail and was kind of a wise guy and so forth and kind of influenced his younger brother. But so the younger brother got caught. Okay. And that's an interesting story in chapter one. Yeah. And and so he and those days, there was no public defenders we can afford any counsel for him or anything. So my mother went down. He may put he handed a plea and they were awaiting sentencing. And so my mother was sent by the family to go down and plead for mercy for her brother, her kid brother. And you traipse in and get get brought in front of this Roy Cohen. Right. This little right. I see you kind of being dragged along on. Well, my mother said we're going on an educational field trip, right? So she takes me down to the Wall Street area in Manhattan. We go to the federal courthouse. We wait what seemed like to be an inordinate amount of time to even though we had a schedule of appointment, we get ushered in to make a long story short. It's Roy Cohen. Of course, people of our generation might remember him. He was he was counseled to McCarthy during the McCarthy hearings. Then there's a movie about him. And there was a movie Al Pacino started right. I mean, he was fierce. It's a very dark among the fiercest. And he was the turned out in later years, the mentor for Donald Trump. Uh huh. And also Trump's attorney for about 10 or 20 years. Okay, I'm gonna leave that one go. We'll let it go. We'll let that one go just because it would not end for a while. Right. But there there are flash points in your life and another flash point that's been in my life and that you you referred to. And I was really stunned or pleased or happy was Wounded Knee and the Lakota tribe all together because I was in Minneapolis when the aim movements first started. And here we are again protecting a pipeline with the same people in the same place and Wounded Knee and that I think was 1973. Right. You met a senator senator. I was doing work for Senator Aberescoff and on. He was the senator from South Dakota where I had been stationed as a Kennedy fellow. Right. I had just finished my fellowship the year before. Right. When I was called to service by one of the Oglala Tribal Council people. Uh huh. And that's how I got involved at Wounded Knee. And you actually said in the book that you thought he should have gotten his own reward. At one point this gentleman, Senator Aberescoff, Aberescoff actually stands up in front of the FBI who are about to have a armed confrontation with American Indians who are occupying their land. Right. In hopes of changing some of the politics that are going on. Right. And he actually says giving you the line do you do you want to be the first first federal agent to kill a working senator in the United States. Right. And he backed them down. He did. He did. You know John Kennedy wrote a book Profiles and Courage. Right. Early on in his career. Uh huh. And I always felt that Aberescoff should have been included. Yeah that's this. In that book at a later time because of that. Yeah. Let's focus on that a little more though because there's almost like a nation within a nation and the story a story and the abject story we've called it of what life is like on the reservation for our people. We on the way down we chatted and said if he had exposure it's actually worse than any third world country. So how do you see that we're going to bring peacemaking to the wonderful first nations people that we inherited our country from. How do we make peace here on this. Well I think first we have to make peace within ourselves. Beautifully said. And and understand its peace within peace without. And we're very violent people in America. You know we basically stole the land. And occupied the land of Native Americans now for centuries we broke every treaty just about that was ever signed before the ink was dry literally painful but true. And and then of course we had slavery on top of that and we had the immigrants and for their labor this country was built and occupied and settled. And how do you do it. I mean it's a massive undertaking. I go back now to my my period of service in the early 70s through the mid 70s basically through the 70s in that part of the country. And if you go and look at the statistics today for Shannon County for instance where the Ogallala reservation is and where I did a lot of work. They're worse than ever worse than ever worse than ever. The suicide rate is epidemic proportions particularly among young people. And yet I think both of us agree of all the history that you paint is is a true a true painting. It's an amazing experiment this experiment of America. So again how how do you what tools do you see that are pragmatic for this peacemaking for people to be somewhat self-reflective of how to move the bar ahead. Well you know Buddhist philosophy among other eastern philosophies talks about non-violence. Okay as in yoga philosophy for instance at Hymsa is the number one moral precept. If you don't if you don't figure that one out then really no matter how many postures you twist yourself into. Right. And how many deep wretches to take. It really doesn't matter. So we have to realize that we're violent people. We have to start I think where President Clinton started which was with a formal apology on behalf of the nation and then reconciliation education a martial plan for the reservations. I mean the rate of alcoholism the deplorable nature and the Lakota in particular and that's why this pipeline thing is so interesting. They resisted the American military right to the end until really there was there was not an adult male left in their tribe. They were either old men some woman and very young children and they've been paying the price ever since ever since. And so it's it's huge the undertaking is usually I don't pretend to have the answer but the basic core thing and again this comes out of Buddhist philosophy is to really learn how to listen. As my UPIC mentors in Alaska educated me they said the creator gave you two ears in one mouth. So you should at a minimum listen twice as much as you speak. For a young lawyer that was very interesting advice. Yeah there was two to one and then on the listening part of it it seems even before listening is the quieting of our minds. Yes because you just can't quiet if you if your mind is always going for the retort of how smart you're going to be and it hasn't taken that first breath like we did just like right. Okay what's really here what's what's really in our hearts. That's actually quite a brave move. Right. I mean to ask and you're asking people to do that before they talk to actually touch base with their hearts. That's a pretty stunning thing. Can it be done. I hope so in my lifetime. You know I mean that's I think that's why some of us are here to help promote that. You know those of us who have discovered that in our own lives want to share it and that's and that's your obligation if you've discovered it your responsibility is to share that. Don't you feel so. Yeah absolutely. Well we're going to come back in just a second here Tom and I'm going to ask you some more questions so I think we've got a break coming up right now terrific I can't wait. All right here we go. Aloha I'm Kaui Lucas host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on Think Tech Hawaii. I also have a blog of the same game at kauilukas.com where you can see all of my past shows. Join me this Friday and every Friday at 3 p.m. Aloha. Aloha and how only Maka Hiki Ho which is happy new year and I hope it's a happy and prosperous new year for you. I'm Kayleigh Akina with the Grassroot Institute. Every week we partner with Think Tech Hawaii and produce a program called a Hanaka Co. Let's work together. We bring together movers and shakers who are making a difference here in Hawaii making a better Hawaii for everyone. If you're interested in improving the economy the government and society. Join us every week on Mondays at 2 o'clock p.m. for a Hanaka Co. on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network until you see me then. Aloha. Tom what motivation. I mean this has been a wow my favorite thing. I've been based on making dough. I mean 3800 as a per year as a lawyer for the fellowship for Robert. Robert Kinney's fellowship. Let's go into what really motivates you as a human being. What's what's the core keel there of the North Star for you. Well you know it really ties into a very current issue which is immigration. So my ancestors came to this country and worked very hard as most immigrants do established themselves and basically left everything that they knew and cherished in order to provide a life for future generations my generation in which we could get an education become professionals and lead a life that wasn't tied to starvation on a daily basis. And because of that and all the sacrifices that those ancestors made on my behalf I feel the obligation is to return that energy as best I can and help others any way I can. For as long as I can wherever I can wear whatever I can do Jimmy Carter good beautiful quote yeah beautiful man yeah beautiful man yeah so I'm gonna do some a little more playful stuff if we don't mind what makes you feel lucky live Hawaii. Wow I would say the Aloha spirit to be surrounded by generally speaking by people who are kind people who are polite people who are respectful and people who I seem to feel more comfortable with than I felt any other place on the planet. So your community your sangha the Aloha spirit as you said right how would you define happiness. Happiness in one word family and that's family both in terms of your immediate family your blood family your community and the family that we live with on this beautiful little jewel of the planet that's speeding on through space. See everybody as Ohana. Yeah yeah. Tom if you had a magic wand and you could erase one disease in life what would it be? Ignorance. Stupidity. Ignorance. Ignorance in the sense that you encountered in Buddhism and in yoga philosophy okay which is ignorance of the self not knowing who you are why you are what your purpose in life is and what your service your Siva is. Yeah beautifully said yeah that is what Buddha said that the root cause of this is we ignore that we're connected to everything that we're actually built from beautiful stuff. I think we have the same word in yoga philosophy and in Buddhism it's a vidya. Vidya. Yeah. Stupidity or ignorance. Stability to ignore your connections. Right. Your how you are all one in some sense. Right. Not separate. And what do you know when you were a little kid I'm kind of curious what did you want to be in life. It always was the lawyer. Really. The advocate. Always. You know that experience at seven like I said it was a searing almost like a branding and it's a mix it's a mixed blessing. Very mixed blessing because on the one hand my course was charted and it's and when you have a purpose in life and you have a focus and a goal. Right. Okay. In some ways it makes whatever your ambitions are for yourself a lot easier. On the other hand there might have been some other things that I don't say I regret but it would have been interesting to look into more of an academic career for instance. You know it's kind of curious because there's so many titles that would apply to you now. I mean there's author. There's lawyer. There's musician. There's athlete. There's cook. There's a lot of a lot of different a lot of different social activists. What's important to you right now again. Let's read. Being the best human being I can be beautifully said. That's what I was left. It's a work in progress of course. And the imperfections are glaring and deli. But that's one of the beautiful things about family is that you have that looking glass. You have that mirror reflecting back from your the family members particularly your with the you pick will call your iPod your soulmate which is my wife Louie saying you lucked out there. Yeah. Not lucked out. You deserve and we got a beautiful mate 40 40 year relationship 40 plus year relationship still going strong. And so to have that mirror in your life even though sometimes it pisses you off to have a good hard look at yourself. But on the whole it's a very salutary thing. Right. I was curious in the book you life in little Italy in Manhattan Notre Dame Indiana South Dakota Lakota tribal lands Bethel Alaska the U. U. P. Native lands Santa Barbara Evansville Washington D. C. Lonnie Kai Hawaii and you kind of describe yourself as a stranger in a strange land. How does that feel now or what is that like looking back. Oh I want to use your word. Your auto no no sys right the auto no sys of your life. What do you know about your life now or is it still that stranger in the strange land feeling not so much only you know when I get off at the airport in Los Angeles or New York. That's when the strangest sometimes comes in but less strange. I think as one matures and gets older and you become more practical in nature and seeing the good in everyone and not being so judgmental about others that helps to take the edge off of that. I think when I made that statement I felt that way. Perhaps I had some of the arrogance of youth involved in that statement. In what way. Thinking that that you're that you know more than others that everybody you know that's stupid. And so it is nice to have that one gone at least partly. It's a big relief. Partly polished by humanity. Right. Yeah. So that's great. Just getting more humble I think you know in the aging process we'll do that to you whether you like it or not. So absolutely. So let's get a little bit more flesh on the bones because you're still you're working in divorce now. I mean that's been your bread and butter you could say or how you focus your life in terms of peacemaking and go through the kind of mechanics of the thing how somebody comes to you and how they're going to how that's going to look differently than an adversarial relationship. I don't know if you remember you brought me this concept almost 20 years ago and asked me to partake as a physical on acupunctures and meditation. You asked me to also and I was stunned. I think at that point the divorce rates were like a third. So a third of everybody who tries this game called 50 percent. I don't know the actual state but he's a little less. But anyway it's a stunning amount and it affects the entire culture because especially if there's children your family never goes away. It isn't like you can audio. So talking through the mechanics and why you think it's a superior way and where you would like to see collaborative law go all together. Well there's two things. So the actual program that I have at the Mediation Center when we're to why who is called educated divorce. And the approach there is that if most people are reasonable especially if you can provide them with a moment in time where they take that deep breath like we did at the beginning of the outside of this program and ask their permission to be their guide to be their educator provide them with information for instance about the brain how they need to be realize that when they're in a fight or flight situation when they're being defensive they're not listening. They may be physically hearing the words of the other person the position of the other person the needs of the other person but they're not really listening they're preparing their defense. You know so you have to help them shift from the back brain OK the Olympic brain to the prefrontal cortex which is the more intellectual side where reason generally more reason generally resides. So you're going from the reptilian to the highest functioning part the executive functions of the brain. So you do that through education. I use breathing exercises. My other profession is as a yoga teacher as you know and I use a lot of breath work to get people to slow down to get people to listen to their heart more and then there's all kinds of techniques like nonviolent communication training and nonviolent communication with where the participants allow the peacemakers the mediators to interrupt them in their conversations and suggest better word uses you want to you want to create what I call a consequence sensitive verbalization OK so that you become sensitive and conscious of the words that you're using because that's another form of violence right. I mean violence isn't just physical most of the violence that's committed is non physical. So you're teaching people the words that they're saying that they're choosing to use how they're saying it their body language the intonations. So there's training involved in all of that. And then you have a team of professionals just like when you talked about 20 years ago. Well we have that now. So I have psychologists. My daughter has just joined us now as an in house side PhD psychologist side the psychologist I should say and use financial planners if there's issues if people are in disagreement about alimony or just confused about alimony and division of property because in the force field there's only two major issues it's money and children money and the kids and then the thing that I have which comes out of my background you ask me what's the thing that makes you the most happy and I said family right is to remind people if there are children in most of the cases I have there are children. Yes that it's all about the children and that I will and I tell people up front this that my mantra if they're going off course and are getting away from the children's needs versus their own selfish needs because divorce is a very selfish experience. It's very narcissistic. OK. Very worried about yourself and people will give lip service and say oh yeah my children are everything to me and then they'll go off and later. Yeah just go totally loony in terms of resolving the issues that need to be resolved. So my mantra will be children children remember the children children remember the children. Way to go Tom remember in your book Bernard Shaw's quote about family being the greatest service that can be rendered to any country and mankind is to bring up a family well. So you mentioned Lou she's been doing yoga you've been doing yoga out of Lonnie Kye for almost for 40 years. She's been doing 40 years. She's been working in the prison for 24. I want to give you a moment to is there something you would like to add or something. Well our yoga school which is called the Yoga School kind of DBA is the Hawaii Yoga Prison Project. And for 24 years Louisa and on occasion myself and some other of our yoga students have gone in to teach yoga inside. Yeah. And it's an amazing program the transformations that you see among among the inmates in general not everybody but is and they look forward to it. She's the queen over there. I mean everybody loves Lulu. Yeah. But we've gotten little and no support. The state of the state has been kind enough now to pay for some of the classes. But we need to expand it. We need to pass the baton to a new generation now to go in there and no one's interested in inmates. They're they're forgotten. It is a stunning. I teach meditation at this at the prisons and it's just stunning how backwards we are right now. There's no other word for us just to. I'm afraid we have to close right now. Rather from another mother. Thank you so much for sharing your good words and then departing. I want to say. Be kind. Be courageous. Do some good and have fun. Thank you so much. My great. My great. My great pleasure. And my motto is if it ain't fun better. I like that.