 Hello everyone, welcome to Looking to the East. I'm your host, Steve Zercher. Thank you for tuning into our show or watching it later as this is recorded in the displayed on Think Tech later in the week. I'm located here in Kobe, Japan, and we have a very special show for you this week. As you know, I address various topics having to do with Japan, and today we're going to talk about one that's iconic when people think of Japan, you know, they think of sushi and then they also think of Kyoto, and then specifically they would think of Geisha. So we're very fortunate to have an expert in this area, and that's Arif Iqbal. Arif, thank you so much for waking up early here in Japan on this Tuesday morning and joining us. Thank you, Steve. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely. So as you just saw, Arif is a professor at the university where I also teach and am a dean that's Kansai Gaidae University. He is a business professor. Arif has a long history of working in the business area for a variety of American and also Japanese companies. His most recent position before he became a professor at Kansai Gaidae was as the CFO of Benese, which is a very famous Japanese conglomerate. So he decided in his wisdom, I would say, that it was time for him to transition from industry into academia. So I interviewed with him and I hired him as a business professor where he's been teaching, Arif, what it's been three or four years now? Four years now, yes. Four years. Wow, time flies. So on the topic to this show, I didn't know this, of course, when I was interviewing him. It wasn't on his CV, but Arif has had a lifelong passion and interest in Geisha and he has been studying Geisha for many, many years. He lives in Kyoto where, of course, is the major center of that. So he asked me a few years ago. He said, Steve, I'm a business professor, but I really, my passion is the study of Geisha and would it be possible to teach a course on that? And of course, I said, yes. So Arif has been teaching a class on Geisha to our foreign students and Japanese students now for a number of years. So Arif, why don't you tell me and also our audience, what sparked your interest in this? How did the CFO of an essay decide to become interested in studying Geisha in Japan? It's a complicated question and so I will try to address it from a few different ways. So first of all, I think was because of my love of photography. So I've been photographing for many years. And one of the things that I typically do is I spend time with a picker photographer I really like and spend time with them. And it was with one of these photographers that we were thinking of a long term project for me, for my development. And so I was thinking about what is it that I'm attracted to in Japan. And so I said, the Geisha can be a fantastic topic. And so that was one angle. The other angle was that the Geisha are probably the best people if you want to understand the whole Japanese ego and understand senior business professionals and as to what allows them to behave differently in the presence of these entertainers as well as how do they do the whole umotenashi, which is the whole culture of hospitality in Japan. So that was curiosity. And then as I dig in deeper, I found surprisingly that there was a huge link between the Geisha and certain entertainers in India. And that was a culture that I was growing up in. And so for me, as I got deeper into the culture, it looked so nostalgic, so familiar. And so that allowed another level of understanding as well as curiosity for me to pursue it. Oh, interesting. So how long has it been that you've actually been studying photographing and researching Geisha now? So I think close to, I would say, the first person I photographed seriously was about 14 years ago. Okay, so it's been quite a long time. And as you've told me in our previous conversations, this is leading towards a book that you are working on actively, which will include photos that you've been taking. So before the show started, Arif mentioned to me that he has 300,000 pictures, which is just remarkable to think about. So tell us about the book. And then you also have, we've uploaded some of the photos that you've taken, you've selected. So Arif, why don't you explain about the book a little bit, and then also show us the pictures and explain the background on them. Okay, thank you. So the book idea came around because I am teaching, I believe it's the only class, which is a semester long class on the Geisha in the whole world, because I looked and I looked and I couldn't find anything. So as I was developing my class and I was researching, and part of my interest was how can I bring my knowledge to future generations? And the lack of a textbook, the lack of, you know, the stories about the Geisha have always been written from either, and just a pure academic perspective or a pure photographer perspective, but never really a combination of, you know, going into the depth of why is this happening, how did they evolve? And in my classes, I've been fortunate enough to have some really passionate students, and two of them actually wanted to pursue a graduate degree related to Geisha. Amazing, Arif. That's really wonderful that you inspired your students to take that direction. So kind of what I wanted to do was to create a platform where other people who would have interest could come to a place they wouldn't have to search through all these articles, et cetera, by themselves. They would have a good starting point, and then the future generations can build on that platform. That's kind of what my hope is with this book. Wonderful. Why don't you go ahead and show us the photos, which are just stunning. Thank you. So if we let's start with the first picture, and kind of what I want everybody to who's on the show, and you're probably aware of it, but the other item that I kind of want to bring to our perspective is that this world is a very visual world. It's a very visual world, and within this visual world, there are clues. And so theoretically, you can look at a picture, and you can tell exactly how old this person is in the seniority, what month this picture was taken, if this is a first year person, second year person, et cetera. And then also it shows the maturity of the Geisha. So we're starting with this picture, and this is a picture taken in the fall. So this picture, what it shows you on the left, you'll see two Michael. And on the right, you will see a Geisha, or in Kyoto, we call them Geiko. And what I want to start introducing to you is what is this world made out of, and who are the key players. And Michael, if you can just go to the next slide please. Thank you. So in this world, it's centered around a family. These are not real brothers and sisters and mother, but they have come together as a family. And what you're seeing is an okia, the Japanese word is okia. And what you're seeing is the house mother. And the house mother is with her group of prospective Geisha as well as, so the way you can tell a Geisha is if you look at the hair, and you can kind of tell us to the simplicity. And most probably what you're looking at this little notch out here. And what that will tell you is that this is a big, as opposed to like a real hair style of a Geisha. So you have a house mother, you have a person who is looking into becoming a Geisha in the future, who lives with the family. And then you have the three girls who are part of that family. The mother, what she is responsible for is basically taking this lump of coal who will come and then polishing it into this diamond, right? And what happens in Japan is you have people coming from the rural parts of Japan coming to the house mother and saying, I want to become a Geisha, please accept me. And if the house mother likes them, then what she will do is she will choose her and then over the next four years, she will train her to become a Geisha. So the role of the house mother is extremely important because she sets the identity for the house, she sets the values for the Geisha as they are growing up, as well as she is responsible for all the financial elements that the Geisha in training needs to have, dance, classes, kimonos, obis, hairstyles, all these different elements. So this is part of the sort of the ecosystem of the Geisha. All right, let's go to the next slide, please. So in this slide, what you kind of see is you see two maiko in the, and then in the middle, you have a geiko. And in the back, what you see on the wall, you see some posters. And so what this picture is demonstrating is that this is the first day as a maiko, and maiko means geisha in training. So they go for training for four years. This is the first day of being a maiko for these two girls. And each maiko has an older sister who kind of teaches them all the norms as to how to behave, introduces them to different people. And when these young girls make mistakes, she goes and apologizes to everybody on their behalf. Kyoto goes back centuries. And so there are a lot of relationships. And to maintain those relationships are extremely important. The young girls who come in, they really don't know a lot of times as to who are the important people, who are not the important people, how to behave with customers. And so the older sister plays that particular role. So what typically happens is when a new maiko is going to be born outside the house of the okia, you'll see these posters announcing that somebody new is going to be debuting. And basically there are hundreds of photographers who are waiting outside the door as these girls make their debut. So the first day is very special, of course. And then what you also noticing is they're all wearing black kimono. And black kimono is the most formal kimono. And girls will wear it for a formal occasion, especially it has the family crest on it. Michael, if you can go to the next slide please. And now you're seeing a little bit closer look between the older sister and the younger sister. And what you can also kind of see is how decorative the young maiko is and how simple, elegant the older sister as a geiko is. And the reason for that is when a maiko is young, she still doesn't have all the skills to talk to customers. But if she's extremely ornate, if she's playful, if she's like a doll, the customers do more of the talking. And then they're like, oh look at this, you know, hand ornaments and which particularly change every month. But they're like, oh tell me about it, is this your favorite? And so the customers lead the conversation till the maiko become more and more comfortable and then they can lead the conversation. Once you become a geisha, when you walk in the room, you have the power to change the room. You can read the mood in the room. And if people are quiet, the geisha livens it up. And so it's an extremely skillful way of how they can totally change the atmosphere in the room. All right, let's go to the next slide please. What you see in this picture is really the formality, the hierarchy, and how the girls move together. So basically what you're seeing is you're seeing different groups of people moving together. So basically what happens is for main events in the year, the girls will move together to pay respect to the teacher. And then this is a person who is going to be a maiko in the future. She's bowing to her older sisters and saying, you know, please be kind to me. Please teach me manners. Please forgive me for things that I may do wrong. The girls interestingly are taught to even bow to telephone poles because again, they don't know who is going to be a customer who is not going to be a customer. So at the beginning bow to everyone is kind of the golden rule within this world. Yeah. All right. So next slide please. So this is a maiko on her very first day. And what you're kind of noticing is the formal black kimono. You're kind of seeing the colors. There's a lot of color. As she matures, the colors fade away and it will change into something white. You will notice that only her lower lip is painted, which is a visual clue that she is the first year person. And this kind of like hairstyle is only on the particular, on the first three days. Right? So that's another thing. These are made out of turtle shell. And so there's a lot of customs. There's a lot of traditions. These are handed down from generation to generation. So this is a person who is on her first day. If you can go to the next slide, Maile. And this is somebody, remember the red color I was talking and look at how simple the color is. Right? And so this is a person who is a little bit more senior. She is probably in her third or fourth year. And looking at the picture, you can tell looking at this ornament over here that this was taken in December. And what happens in December in Kyoto is the Kabuki comes to town and these girls go and they will have their favorite Kabuki actors autograph their hair ornaments. And so you can actually see pictures before and afterwards blank and they'll go and they'll get autographs. And so again, it's making the elements of Kyoto into them into the dresses. Yeah. Next slide, please. And here again, you see a first year Maiko remember I was talking to you about just the lower lip being painted. If you can notice a little bit this green ornament and towards her right side of the hair that tells the people that she is less than 18 years of age, which means theoretically don't make her drink. So just a little visual clue. Again, Maiko is very seasonal. Her hair ornaments change every month. This is taken in April. You can see the cherry blossoms not only in her hair, but also in her surroundings. Yeah. Every change in hairstyle is an invitation for her to tell her customers and say, I have a different look. Please come and visit me. Right. So all right. Next slide, please. And this is how they dress during the summer. Kyoto in Japan in the summer is extremely hot. So if they wear the white makeup, it's going to be terribly uncomfortable. So in the summer they'll wear a summer yukata. This is taken at the time of the Gion Festival. And you can see that she has a summer fan with the Gion Festival. And, you know, they'll be going around in the summer. We have beer gardens and they will usually come and sit and chat with the customers. And it's a nice and expensive way to meet with them and talk with them. Next slide, please. And a key element of their role is performance, right? So Gesha, they're artists, but unlike other artists, what they do is, for example, a pianist is a pianist, right? Focusing mainly on the piano. A Gesha on the other hand has to master multiple skills. She will learn to dance. She will learn to play a musical instrument. She will learn the tea ceremony. She will learn how to arrange flowers. She will learn how to arrange, I mean how to do calligraphy, right? So she is mastering many different arts at the same time. And that's what unique about her is that she's learning from the top masters and doing multiple things to become this well-rounded Japanese person. And that is what differentiates their gay of the Gesha means art. And that's what symbolizes that this is the art that they're portraying. A big part of their role is public performances. And if we go to the next slide. So in public performances, we'll also include being participating. This is in the Guion Festival, and they will do a certain symbolic dance called Suzumeodori. And so they will be, you know, doing certain dances as well. If we go on to the next slide, please. She will also be performing in private in what our private ceremony is called Ozashiki's, right? So in Japan, entertainment a lot of times happens in private area. So as you may know, the evening with the Gesha is extremely expensive. And so only people who are extremely prominent are able to invite them. Somebody just cannot call a house and say, I would like to book a Gesha. You have to be introduced by someone. If you just show up, you are going to be refused. And there are some stories about when when Gorbachev came to town and he wanted to meet somebody and even he was refused because they did not know, you know, how what his tastes were like. So basically, they're refusing because they want to give you the best experience. And if they don't know you, if they haven't observed you, they won't be able to create this wonderful evening for you. Right. So these evenings in close quarters are where you see when you get to see the real art of the Gesha. In public, they perform according to what everybody's taught in private, they can bring their own unique aspect to it. All right, next slide, please. And these are the final stages of a Gesha. What you are seeing is a Gesha in her final stage. And what she will do is she will wear a certain hairstyle called the Sacco and she will have her teeth blackened out, which is what married women used to have in the olden days. And in essence, it's symbolizing marriage to the profession. And a Gesha, if a Gesha marries, she has to leave. And those are very strict rules in Guion, in Kyoto. Some of the other areas, they've been a little more flexible about it, but Kyoto has very strict rules. And what she will do is she will walk around, she'll pay her respect to all the tea houses, customers will come to see her perform a special dance. And so this is in her final stage. So I want you to notice this picture and how she is. And if we can go to the next picture, this is when she becomes a full-fledged Gesha. So this is taken the next day of the previous picture. All of a sudden, she has this elegance, she will start wearing a wig, her makeup changes, she becomes more simple. And now what she has done is she's graduated and she's become a full-fledged Gesha here. And now she continues her life as a Gesha. And Gesha has never retired. So they continue as long as they want to. Some of them will marry and leave, but some of them will continue to later stages. And in the last picture that I want to show you is how you will see them at a typical performance. You'll have somebody who's more experienced, an older Gesha. And then you'll have a couple of younger Mycos in attendance, depending on who is attending. What the house mother does is she looks at the personality of the person and says, you're extremely quiet, so I'll have a talkative Gesha. Or you talk a lot, so I'll have somebody who's quiet. Or you like somebody who dances. So she'll pick and choose according to your particular taste. So Steve, these are some pictures I quickly put together just to give you an overview of this world. Just a remarkable, beautiful pictures, Arif. I'm just inspired by them. And as someone who's lived in Japan for a while, I can't exactly explain why, but your pictures do capture what Japan is about. You know, when you started speaking, you talked about looking at the Gesha world. It helps to understand Japanese business culture more broadly. Japan culture as a whole. And since I've lived here and I've learned a little bit about this country, I'm responding emotionally to those pictures and saying, yes, this is what Japan is about. This symbolizes through the art of Gesha, Japanese culture in a way that's at least very clear to me. And I'm sure even viewers who don't have a background in Japan are equally inspired. One question though. You mentioned you had the picture of the Gesha who was reaching retirement and then she was wearing the black on her teeth, as you said. And that was because of marriage. Is there also an age limitation or Gesha forced to go through that transition when they reach a certain age? So typically when a girl comes in, she's around 15, right? 15 or 16. So because Japanese laws mandate that you have to be a certain age. And then she'll spend four to five years. At that point in time, there is a decision made by multiple players. Does she have enough art to attract customers? And if she has the art and the skills and will attract customers, then she becomes a full-fledged Gesha, otherwise she retires. And once she becomes a full-fledged Gesha, she can continue till 1890. I think the oldest Gesha was in her 90s. So they can continue as long as they want. Okay. That's so interesting. All right. Well, as I had suspected, the time has flown by here. I wanted to ask you, Arif, if the viewers of this show are interested in what you have done or your upcoming book, how would they contact you? What is the best way that they can get updates from you as you make progress on the book or see more of your photos if you make them public? So my photographs can be, some of them can be seen at www.arifikpal.com, one word. So that's where my pictures can be found. I have to update my website. But the viewers, if they have curiosity, they can write to me at my university email address, which would be www.arifikpal.com. So those would be places, as I am going to be testing the book out, working with the students, refining it, because I want it to be accessible and understandable, because as one learns more and more, one gets very deep into it. So I would like to keep it at a level which is of curiosity, of interest. That's a hold by the general public. Oh, fantastic. So one last question is, as we were on the time, how is the industry doing? Are the number of women from these rural areas that you talked about, are they still applying insufficient numbers to maintain the business? And I'm sure Corona interrupted things as it did everything else in Japan over the last year, a year and a half. But overall, ARIF, is this still a thriving market, a thriving business? Are the businesses in Kyoto or other locations, like up in Tokyo, are they contracting with Keisha for these entertainment performances that you talked about in your lecture with the photos? So we're seeing a shift. Obviously, COVID has a big impact. And with this big impact, because the customers have to be limited as to how much time they can spend. So a lot of the Keisha have not been fully employed as before. So what we're seeing is them moving towards elements such as some places have opened up crowdfunding. Some people have started doing Zoom base shows, which can show a part of that personality. But the real joy of experiencing Keisha is to have them in the room and see how they totally change a room. And what we are also seeing now is there is a drop in the number of Keisha, because a lot of them have found it difficult to be able to sustain themselves economically. And typically what will happen is that the Federation will reach out more to some of the local places. One interesting element about this world is you don't need to have talent in order to become a celebrity. It's all hard work. It's pure hard work. You can just come in and through four years of hard work, you can become this person who can be on TV. And so that's a big charm for people. And I think the Keisha have evolved over a thousand plus years that I've kind of been researching. I mean, at least from the Heian period, I've kind of seen them evolve. So I think they will find their own ways to deal with this. And you have to trust them with it. So they have the adaptability to be able to move through Corona, whatever else comes their way over the coming centuries as they've had over the last 10 or more. Right. Right. Wow, Reeve. Thank you so much. I'm so happy I invited you to this. I think this has been fascinating. I really appreciate it. And again, for those viewers that are interested in following up, Reeve gave more information in terms of contacting him, either at Kansai Gaidae, you can Google him at Kansai Gaidae and find his address there. So that is a wrap for our show. Those of you that enjoyed this show, Think Tech is always looking for contributions. This is a nonprofit organization. And there was a recent fund drive effort. But if you're interested in supporting the show like this and learning about Japanese culture with eminent researchers like Reeve, and please consider giving to the Think Tech organization. So, Reeve, thank you again so much. This is just fascinating. It's really wonderful what you're doing. You're, in a way, you're a national treasure yourself. As I know, some Gaisha has been identified as a national treasure. But the fact that you're going to be able to surface this, not just to the academic community, but to the broader community, I think that's really wonderful work that you're doing. And I really appreciate it. Thank you. So let's wrap everyone. Yep. Thank you, Reeve. That's a wrap. So I'll see you in a couple of weeks on a completely different topic, but we'll be focused on Japan. Thank you for tuning in. And thank you for supporting this program.