 So we do have a couple more people coming in, grab a chair wherever you can find them. I think we have three more back here. Turn out, thank you so much everybody for being here today. I'm Rebecca Cummings, I'm the Interim Director of Digital Matters. I am so excited to introduce our guest for today who obviously has a fan following at the university. So this will be great. So our speaker today is Craig Dworkin. Craig is a poet, critic, editor and professor of English here at the University of Utah. And his topic for today is Facture of the Archive. He is also the founding senior editor of the Eclipse Archive, a free online archive of radical small press writings in the last quarter century, which we're going to hear about today. Craig has been doing digital scholarship at the U, long before it was cool, and before places like Digital Matters even existed. And we are delighted to welcome him to our speaker series today. So join me in welcoming Craig Dworkin. And Jack and everyone here who made this work immensely, immensely honored to be invited to talk about Eclipse. So a website that I built to provide digital facsimiles of out of France, small press, experimental literature. Has to give a sense of what the archive does. So works are presented with really bare bones, colophons, physical description, publication history, and then high resolution, single page or openings. And then lower file size, reading copies that are either OCR or retyped by myself or more recently with smaller file size images. This is our brand new data visualization screen, never before tested, so. Craig, if you might be able to hear me. I think. Digital Matters lab. You did not. No, that's okay. We're testing. Digital Matters. And then to get that to you. Thank you. That is really pretty much Eclipse. Websites built from hand, hand type, plain text, notepad, HTML. It currently has about 300 titles, tens of thousands of pages, but only about 15 gigabytes of space that's half the storage on your smallest. iPhone. And it gets about 150 unique visitors a day. It's a little hard to figure out who is actually human and what's a bot. And who gets there erroneously, we get big spikes around celestial events as people look for homes about the eclipse. Or scores and scores of people who make in the full Smith's traffic. The most visited site traffic it's the most traffic by orders of magnitude. It's going to mess this up again and have trouble coming back to the last show, but. We're here to help. Oh, it doesn't matter. The traffic is a sensibly a transcript of 24 hours of and radio traffic reports from 1010 wins all the news all the time, but together on the ones. So, all of these four commuters in the New York metropolitan area hapless drivers trying to decide. Do I take the George Washington bridge my exits coming up at just a moment. They're looking for real time dynamic Google data to help them make the decision and they end up looking at this 20 year old traffic report. Well, I think how to do that. They're stuck in traffic as repounce that the poetry is news that stays news. And if we take stay there not as remains news but as like a state of execution delaying or bringing to a standstill, like bumper to bumper traffic. And this is in fact news that stays news. Talk amongst yourselves for a second to awkward when you're all quiet. In the lab. So as I get. Oh, it's not displaying it. It's showing there, but I don't know how to. You can just play. Oh, you can just play. Okay. Let me work with this and see what I can do. I think I think just from here, I don't need to see the PowerPoint. I'll see if I maybe I'll skip going on to the web. Okay, while I blocked Google from indexing those. From indexing those files. But I actually kind of like the poetic anarchy of that. I stopped feeling sorry for the commuters and realized that Google had transformed this, you know, old work of conceptual literature into a self public service announcement just says don't use your cell phone while you're driving. I'm going to talk about 150 intentional users today. And I know why they are coming to a place they want to access folks that they can otherwise get to. But I could not figure out why we're back inviting me to talk about eclipse to you all. I think with digital matters as the place with the highest tech, the newest tools, the newest books, the newest films like they talked about last week, cutting edge 21st century digital humanities work. The very opposite of the 20th century website website with no coding even with no programming languages in the front of this. HTML cascading style sheets and anchors pointing to JPEGs. So I thought I would actually focus on this discrepancy and think about what it means to have this antiquated publishing site. That's still persisting in a world where the technology has evolved. And also where the literary has involved poetry means something very different than that. At the end of the 20th century, publishing has obviously changed radically since then. So I've shown you essentially what eclipse does. This is like PowerPoint. And then once it's like selected, then yeah. So now it should be here. Okay, so do what eclipse does. I'm going to need your help again. So I thought I'd talk a little bit about actually what the site does not do about the aspects of the site and the history of the site that are not evident from current users point of view and it's called eclipse. For a reason I can talk about but it seemed appropriate to talk about what is eclipse or occluded in this project. But before I talk about what is not seen, I just want to fast for a moment in the fact that it is visible at all. This was launched in 1998, which is like the Devonian age of the prehistoric Internet or as the age of the second, second great wave of mass extinctions. And I could have known this at the time, but it's actually a really pivotal year in the history of the web. It's the moment the web moves away from geosities and tripod and angel fire is the predominant sites in 1996 and 1997. They basically they're offering, you know, homesteading 40 acres or homepage studying 40 acres for people who are willing to put in a little bit of work to make a website but because the platforms didn't need to master FTP protocols or Linux or have to have to compile anything. I'm going to, I was going to show you some, and we're going to pause this for a second. It doesn't work on this, it's not going to work on that. I was going to show you what the web looked like at the time. Oh, it's just like, it's just great. Yeah, it's not exactly how it moves away from that. I'm not going to do the fancy thing I wanted to do. I was going to show you what web pages looked like as they were, they looked different since some of you weren't even born. Then there are about 200, just to give you a sense, about 200,000 web pages in 1997. 1999, what 200,000 web pages, they're being viewed on Netscape Navigator. They're being searched by InfoSeq and AskGeebs, my very favorite Altavista Magellan, and their access for most people at, you know, 28.8 or 33.6 kilobytes per second. He blisteringly fast 56k modem comes out in 1998. This is 2,200 times faster than the average web access today. That's the average access today compared to the theoretical maximum digital line strength at the time. So by 1999, those 200,000 or so web pages have grown to about 2 million web pages. Eclipse is one of them. And you can put that in the context of about 200 million web pages, live active web pages today. So three orders of magnitude back from when Eclipse was being planned and telling me there are about a billion more inactive web pages today. So most of the web today is junk space. 85% of the web is, there's Netscape Navigator. There's a 56k modem. And there's the web today, massive fossil bits, as, you know, in part as things like Angel Fire got replaced by Yahoo, AOL, MSN, Lycos. There's obviously another age of mass extinctions that's coming. Live Journal, not yet alive, Friendster, New Friends. You have seven full graduating classes of Harvard Grows. They're going to have to make do without the date rate app. They would become Facebook. Not, I mean, to be fair, not all of the web pages launched in 1998 went extinct. You may have heard of Google, which came out that year and has done slightly better in terms of diversification and growth. And Google grew fast and partnered with Yahoo. So just a couple years by the end of the century, by 2000, it had gained dominance. And just as they were making it big, in fact, this guy from Google named Larry, who had this big security plan for scanning books, called me and wanted advice from Eclipse about scanning. I wanted to know if Eclipse could be like the core of what he called something like the ocean of books. It was going to be fast as the ocean. So all I could think of at the time was how bad, and the librarians here will know, you don't want to put books in the ocean. Water isn't good for it. This, of course, became Google Books within a few years. And he obviously didn't need my help. I think a good reminder that things start small. I mean, Eclipse had maybe 30 books on it at the time. I loved it really big. And there was a moment in the web that was about mutual aid. It was about gift economies, about collective endeavor. The project at the time, I honestly think, was not to lure in bibliophiles and sell their private information. It was just how cool. They have every book. They were still in the do-no-evil mood. It didn't last long. 2000, though, already years away from Eclipse and changing past. XML has released in 1998. And it's the very moment when the phrase digital humanity starts to overtake humanities computing. So even then, that's still a phrase that's much, we're in the right building. It's much more in use in library science than in English departments. So Eclipse evolves out of this Devonian age, the first stable soils that come here from the moss forest and bacterial algal mats of the Cyglerian age of FTP, which is launched into the carboniferous age of the 21st century. And today, I say the sort of living fossil swimming largely undetected through the quaternary waters of the age of fiber optics. It's a rising warming, plastic filled oceans of data that Google envisioned and created. So I want to look back over, sorry for the delay with the PowerPoint. I'm going to go fast. I want to look back over the last quarter century to some of the evolutionary paths that Eclipse did not take. I want to think about why this dinosaur did not become a bird and look just quickly at five brief episodes that promise their brief. I think we're telling in terms of the kind of corporate models and the economic models that the archive refused or embraced. The moments I think are not, I'm not sufficient to explain its continued life, but may have been necessary for that and maybe have is what I'm hoping we can talk about. Maybe have lessons for the kind of projects on the people are doing in the 21st century. So first episode, I've just gotten a job at Princeton University, and I drop a budget and I figured that with $300, I can build and maintain this grand website that I have in mind I basically need to scanner, and I need to buy out university certificates. This whole time we couldn't save too many plain text emails, even what I really wanted was really important to me was a clean domain name I wanted something like eclipse dot archive. Sorry, eclipse dot Princeton. Rather than www Princeton.edu slash art slash faculty slash English slash to work in slash tilde. These little tildes, they pointed to, they pointed to root files have been deprecated. But it was just, since everything's a large decimal number I couldn't figure out why we couldn't just have actually a name. But this required the highest level of it approval. I just want to add a fashion case to my chair for the pedagogic value of this project of research value. Talk more about that. Just as no, but I just happened to see this press release that fires to a library had a new commitment to humanities computing their entire new wing devoted to electronic literature, in which they have zero holdings. The conclusion of electronic literature with no literature whatsoever so I make my pitch to the head librarians and look $300. I can build out yourself of poetry in your new virtual library. She says no, but she says what about. What about $30,000. A laser disk serve by subscription to Harvard and Cornell. Eventually big state schools thinking of places like Utah will subscribe revenue will roll in you get $30,000 every year you can hire somebody, all which goes against the ethos of eclipse obviously the do it yourself ethos. I don't want to be anti HTML or the fact that before this I never, I never build a website even on geo cities. I got a Riley guide and water my sleeves and got to work. It also went against an ethos of this anti commodification and anti commercialization I'm actually I'm very proud that eclipses not a nonprofit. It is opposed to financial transactions. Altogether then we'll talk about some exceptions at the end. And the founding commitment to kind of radical inclusivity and open access. This is a very recent bet of making these works available in the first place. So I went to H&R computer world I bought a scanner myself. But I did work with one of the texts in this otherwise empty library division. She couldn't claim she had anything better to do, which brings me to episode two, in which she presents the two compression software options. This is all about squeezing every last bit literally every bit of data out of an image file. This is what I will talk about modems fees what I talked about server storage costs. And part of what drew the technicians in the library to rebellion when I insisted that we scan every blank page inside covers, free front end papers, which they thought was unethically wasteful, and they wouldn't do it, which is why I started scanning myself. So the two options are Mr sin from lizard tech comes out in 1996 PDF from Adobe, which is out in 1994. She said, look, Adobe company probably not going anywhere. These smart monies on lizard tech it's much more innovative. It's much more exciting. I don't know if you've heard of this Adobe company, but I don't have to tell you that lizard tech big success was being acquired by the font management company for way hundred flowers. Here's the team and stealing confidence. So after a few years, I have to take most of the year and go back and convert all the seed files to PDF files. Okay, since these meet the episode three. There's a lot of craft cleaning some of the files deep deep in the books folders, all the deprecated and non functioning and redundant useless tags and code and collude all of the to try to fail the experiments and work arounds because I didn't know enough in dead ends, including XML. I learned XML as soon as it was published in 2000 and rebuild the whole site with extensible and structured data. But then as I thought about actually found myself really opposed to the theoretical level to metadata. And this has obvious implications for how we work in web to in a semantic web which, as we know, is structured and permitted at every level by formal representations of formal representations data about data. The remnants of experiments. I've not got interested in HP and just use the clips as my learning ground but eventually stripped everything back scrapped everything except HTML. So, this is a site site that is stateless. There's no individualization right this is going to look the same to all of you on any device, no matter what you've done, no matter where you are. And it also means, since you know there's no tracking on it. There are no pop ups about cookies ruining your browsing experience tell you about enhancing your browsing experience or stopping the functionality of the site to tell you about improving the functionality of the site there's no exit tracking, no data compliance statements right the design of the web today. This astonishes me just from design perspective is filled with obstacles to use right form. We think the form should follow function and certain design ethos form here is is obviating function. There's no clicking to consent on things that you haven't, you haven't read so you can get to the thing that you were trying to read in the first place, and so on. For episode four blockage and access. The original interface for eclipse was the first instance ever of what was assumed ubiquitous rotating 3D word cloud, which is why I wanted to have the kind of cheesy animation at the beginning. I wish I had an archive of the archive. I wish I could port something and show you what this looks like I've got a bad approximation. Big, big sense of this. I loved it was striking no one had ever seen anything like it. And it was both a little mysterious but it was also kind of inviting. It encouraged exploration encouraged slay, which I liked it was inefficient, but kind of fun. And it wasn't hard to figure out. It was invented by this MIT grad student who built it for eclipse as a portfolio project is this Russian kid. And I remember by this really nice bottle of champagne to thank him when the website launched. Half the operating budget for eclipse is one ball. But he wouldn't give me his address he was also a little mysterious and not much fun. No one ever met him he was a little shadowy. He returned to Russia that year. He's probably a hacking or our voting machines this very moment. Well, which means that since since his code pointed back to his MIT student account, when they close that account total black box. And this is why I don't have the rotating web. He's part of the lesson about gift economies. I didn't hire him didn't ask for a ball he wouldn't take the bottle of champagne. And in part about who has the key. So design was the guy with the key. Last episode, about a decade ago or 20, almost exactly a decade ago, about a month away. In the end of, in the fall term 2012, the director of college computing for humanities. And a creepy guy named Lonnie Norton commits a horrific B movie style lurid sexual crime in his office. He's really inmate number 222 007, the brand new state correctional facility. And he was the one guy with the key note the irony there. After you got arrested all the humanities websites went down. I woke up one morning to scores and scores of panic emails from students from PhD students people are trying to do their final papers or write their chapters or write their book chapters on primary material and the clips they no longer can actually look at what they're supposed to be writing about The university it gets the department websites up pretty fast, but money is not money and not been using best practices around information architecture. And even the forensic police team I couldn't figure out what was where or what these files were, which has a silver lining which is that eclipse should not have been on these servers at all, where it had been living for years. Part because it didn't meet a whole host of university it requirements. There's only thanks to this kind of irresponsibility that eclipse was working. And most of most of the university it requirements would have been fairly easy to either correct or make exceptions for. But the one thing they were adamant about when I was trying to get this back online. Remember this from our old top was that every page had to be branded with the block you block you the fancy name for this really ugly typeface in this red color with. Please note the register trademark don't anybody don't go using this to brand your own university apparel. It was tested within headers and putters in one of them. Which links to people notices. Announcements. I did not call us to make this up this is their own promotional material. I just to say that some people do know of a geometric side of my face might have it on your desk. But eclipse has always stood out. I'm not even going to try to go to my I have beautiful archive pages of poetry, you know, geo cities poetry pages from the late 90s school of them up. I won't show you how different it was. So this won't really work. Except to say that it stood out against the different act of the 90s by its. Imagine those beautiful silvers and craze is obviously grounded in 90s. But it did not have sparkles and tiled images and multicolored comic stands. And in fact has the grays and silvers of eclipse from purely numerical derivation their hexadecimal color coding to hashtag 30 30 30 and hashtag 80 80 80 your dyslexic like me. I can't actually explain this threes and eights have a special relationship. And my point is not that eclipse spray books. Somehow inherently better than Pantone 185, which is Utah red. Or, you know, just I think the minion web is more appropriate for a literary website than the tests, which is one of the free University of Utah website type faces, but that part of the argument of eclipse. So one of the details with the scan blank pages is that how you present information is part of the information that's being presented and here we have the look of information. The look of research being determined by lawyers, whose main job is policing the logos on sweatshirts and loves in the campus store which as if it's a new wing in the Princeton library. The book store sometimes has actually no books in it. And even their text book division is unable to order the kind of small press titles that eclipse archives and part of the third reason pedagogical reasons that I built the website in the first place so these questions of commercialization, commodification, and the worst parts of corporate culture come back even in an academic setting to make the web funcier and uglier than it needs to be, which leads me paradoxically right back to commercial corporate culture. In 2012 I moved the site to x-mashing servers. I take on an associate editor for moral support, the incredible Danny snelson and that works at UCLA. And the site is run from eclipse archive dark or no till this. Okay, so my point about all of this is that there's something that's really untimely about eclipse it's briefly ahead of its time, and then it is ridiculously antiquated for most of its life it's temporality is entirely out of joint. And by just remarking briefly, all that I think the strange temporality of eclipse brings together its technical ethos, its status as an archive. This is all of our literature that these all have homologous temporalities and analogous paradoxes. So to begin with this I've been sort of narrating eclipse quite explicitly. And in the sense of those 19th century English saboteurs who broke big mills and power moons and stocking frames. All the new textile knitting machines of the Industrial Revolution, out of which not coincidentally computers evolve, or even the old machines of the late 18th century that were newly disenfranchising and alienating workers in the British midlands around 18, 1811. They occasionally set fire to things as well. But they also just smash things. I'd like to give a whole talk about the Levites I realized as I was putting this together. I will just recommend. A recent book by Gavin Mueller, Breaking Things at Work, this big book for the reading group here actually, because it gives a very quick, easy introduction to the Levites that's good, but then has current and contemporary tech examples for today's relevance. But like eclipse, I mean, which as I've been narrating uses new languages, new tools, new technologies is still functioning. The Levites weren't against technology to go. I mean, they were largely skilled machinists who are interested in technology, but they were opposed to mechanization in the service of capital and the cultural or political deployment of technology to exploit or endanger or impoverish people. So like the radical and traditionally come out of like the levelers and the diggers before them, they're not so much backward looking as looking backward in order to find the models that can be recovered for new social structures that are going to build a new world inside the cracked shell of the world. And this tension between looking forward and looking backward, this kind of temporal impossibility is the very definition of an avant-garde archive. So from the one side, the avant-garde is a temporal paradox. We only know something is avant, is avant-garde, once it is by definition no longer avant. Otherwise, people just head out in the wrong direction, they get lost, they're idiosyncratic. It's only after people follow them that they can be ahead of anything. It's only after you have the arrière-garde that anyone is avant-garde. And from the other side, the archives obviously look backwards. They're inherently conservative. There's no intention to something like the experimental of the avant-garde. They're trying to conserve something of what they contain. But they're also indexing a future. You're archiving for some user at some point in the future for some use that you're saving all this material to begin with. And if the work on the clips had done their avant-garde job, I wouldn't need to be saving them. They still have some potential, I must believe, to do something for us today or tomorrow. And for some of these works, I'm going to stand here. Someone may have arrived. Some of the very earliest works on the clips, writers for whom I had complete uvra, have recently had their books republished, have had their first flurry of have scholarly or critical chapters and articles 40, 50 years after they were published. Straight from these files on Eclipse, Norman Pritchard's two books recently published by two different presses, along with scholarly book chapters, these included in The Last Whitney, Biennial, Russell Atkins, with an anthology of scholarly essays, and selected poems along again with brand new academic articles, same for Peter Inman, same for, same for Bernadette Mayer, who's had new books republished, new museum shows. And in fact, the next addition to the archive is going to be the complete correspondence between Bernadette Mayer and Clark Cooley. So that preview for you is the near future of the backward looking archive. In my point here, not so congratulatory prescience, this is for authors out of 130, that's, someone who's doing math can tell me that's 3%, that's not a great batting average. My point and said that, you know, rather than be something like an anthology, which fixes a tradition, the point of eclipse has been to be the start of something in the start of future uses that I don't even want to try to imagine, which is built into the structure of the site and it's untagged, plain text, anti-semantic, bloodite ethos. Okay, that's enough. For me, I hope we can have more conversation about what this could possibly mean for people doing projects. Today, questions and objections and metadata questions. Well, I appreciate this talk. My first website was built with the codec in the URL. So it's going very nostalgic. I was wondering if you could comment on sort of there's a current trend to get into the idea of like minimal computing. When it comes to digital scholarship projects. So I was wondering, do you think that since it is saying the books are kind of sustained the same for so long, it's actually at the forefront of that minimal computing? Not only inadvertently, because of my ignorance, but I think it would be a good reason to think why would you want to do something that is not as fancy and flashy and pitching ahead of the curve. You know, the other, I should say the other irony here, right, is that I'm archiving these books. They're very sturdy. They're on paper. I don't need anything to access them except light on in the room I want to read in. All of these are originally originally on zip drives. That's I omega which lost 95% of its market share by the middle of 2000. I transferred everything to CDs, the CDs that are hold the original stands are already deteriorating. So the idea that the idea of permanence. This looks incredibly permanent after 25 years, but how long books been around on paper. I'm not going to knock it out last. They're doing it. I don't know technically how it worked, but he had much for the same file size, you could, you could zoom in at scales that were smoother and deeper than you could. You can use for a while with map papers. So you see if you scan the map you could zoom in. Just like a word or two I am curious what sort of. What's the kind of gatekeeping about like why, what in my opinion is kind of a finite number of text process of like it's about the authors want to be involved. Is it about you believe there's no other way to act with these facts about, you know, what makes that selection. Yeah, me, you know at the heart of it. Yes. Things that I want to share. Things that the origin of the project goes back to 1998. It was a moment when. Well, I'd moved, I'd moved from Berkeley, which had all these used bookstores with plenty of small first literature in them and a great library. And for instance, I don't mean the library they have an amazing library but not if you want to work on contemporary experimental poetry, nothing. I suddenly realized that, you know, I have this kind of flag waving belief and teaching the avant garde and teaching the contemporary, and then you can't teach this if you can't give books to students. And then when people were starting to talk scholars ostensibly scholars were starting to talk about language poetry, which they'd never read. You got these articles saying that you, they did or didn't believe in language, but, and I just have this is crazy this is like magic by a Renaissance scholar I said you know, really don't like Cavalier poetry. I've never done or anything but I have strong feelings about it, so that we got to make stuff available. I just want to share things. So that's how it starts and then most of it is me thinking, it'd be great if people knew about this, either because I think it's good, or just because it's really weird like some of the stuff is good because it's so bad. So just one examples of kinds of extremity that you know I think you get people kind of feeling that they know, you know that something is very, is very radical or something it's like a radical book work because it comes in a box, but they don't know the more extreme works that would put that into context, even if they're good or bad. So it is accessibility for and these are all for the most part cases where like I couldn't get one of these texts outside of this. Yeah, these were, I mean, there are exceptions this but these were for the most part published in editions of 150 in 1978. They're very expensive if you can find a copy, they're in special collections, which is great but hard for lots of people to access at once. They're just unavailable. And the point I want to make about the hand typed HTML and the O'Reilly guide is, you know, I don't, I think of eclipse as not being the gatekeeping site of record and institution but rather the model that says who is not that hard, go build your own. If you don't like if you don't like the stuff on eclipse, there should be hundreds of eclipses in which people make available the kind of books that I don't want to read but that you really do want me to read and that would be. I've got two, I've got two points I don't want to start it. Let me start small and say, essentially, no. And an author who was part of the first person eclipse, who actually not the schizophrenic is not well, so I want to make light of it but the contract saying that I would never archive material of his own eclipse. So I took that off. I know it's not illegal to use them. But the years later his literary executor after he died, called me and said, you know, this work would make so much sense on it. They're missing puzzle piece by isn't it there. So we put it back on. Or this is also probably a case of diagnostic problems but they're bought one of me go through and put the little, the little C inside a circle which not even required anymore for copyright to copyright his age design, which is that he types that his age is just like the manuscripts he's been sent from the authors which look like every home ever quad trains with the first letter capitalized. So I've had a few moments like that, but essentially not because and I think what. I'm going to get to, maybe not project Gutenberg, but kind of shadow libraries you get with Sean Dockrey's are, or do Sean Baruch's monistro, or Marcel Mars and heroes memory of the world is pirate sites. I'm which evolve the cooks evolved in have direct dialogue with these. These sites and these people get a close and it's everywhere, which I worked on at the same time, which was post first asked questions later. And so I'm often embarrassed that it clips is completely permission to know 100% above board. In terms of intellectual property, which I don't believe in. But the difference between eclipse and those sites is that the community of writers on the question, the people who might be in the same room in real life. Some angry dog. In the same room as a dog and there are one in real life. And in which, in those cases, the, you know, specific architecture student and you're using are you might. You might know a group of people you want to collaborate with, but you don't know John Baudrillard, and you don't know whoever's an MIT publishing and you don't know who's distributing it. But for these, well, I'm only a step away from the people who are not only writing these works, but are typesetting them or printing them or publishing them or distributing them and are reading them. And so, there, I feel less inclined to disregard their concerns about. Okay, that was me, Andrew, and I know. Yeah, no. No, in fact, it's, you know, I think it's, I think it's not, you know, here in the United States, it certainly wasn't recognized as having a state-of-the-art favor. As the most rich enemy of us in the United States review for the Red Package, we would take on pretty durable, you might say, or something like that. But of course, this is because of the, you know, it's not through this. This is something I would listen to. But I think because I wouldn't, I think because I would never do it in places in the United States or what we do with, I think, my final answer, the answer is that I wouldn't do it in places in the United States. I wouldn't write a monograph just to people with it. I would write a monograph because I wouldn't write a monograph, but I would write it just to people with it. Yeah, so, like, I hope we're going to have a little tragedy of spoken word poetry, that it often dies when anybody was silent. They'll put out a chat book, but then, you know, when it kind of dies, people have come to open mic and they've given me their book. I'm going to submit work to the archive. Oh, make my own archive? Yeah. Also, since I'm not going to make sure that I increase my humor here, or so as anything, most of the books were scanned and scanned and written after, you know, and, you know, one class of whiskey, and they can scan it out, and it's the time that you don't want to watch a television show or do something that's completely different. Yeah, I think they're muted. I think we're probably at the top of the hour. If y'all have that appropriate, you are helping us pioneer this technology today in light of the topic. I didn't break it completely. No, you showed us something to be this big. But I just want to take a second to thank Craig for his talk today. Thank you to those of us joining us online as well. And we'll see you guys next time.