 Doesn't it drive you crazy to think so many people are not engaged in their work? We spend more time working in our lifetime than virtually sleeping in our lifetime. We have one life and so many people are spending a huge amount of their life miserable. Lisa Whitehead is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media, Innovators Magazine and sponsored by the Aloha's Regenerative Foundation. Lisa believes in the art of possibility. She has a passion for improving processes and workplaces. Lisa has a holistic outlook on work that has a ripple effect on our community, society and the planet. She is a change management strategist who has driven to make a dent in the Apsimal Gallup statistic that 80% of people worldwide are disengaged at work. Lisa has an MS in organization and management from Anatoch University and holds certifications in mediation, facilitation and interior design. She speaks and writes about the future of work, building community and ensuring all voices are heard in the change process. Lisa consults with companies large and small, local and global. Her recent engagements have been helping business leaders figure out what the future of work will look like in a post COVID-19 world. Lisa is the founder and chief transformation officer of Workplace Transformation Facilitation and serves as senior associate to advanced workplace associates, a global change management consultancy based in the United Kingdom. Lisa and her husband, Pete, chains have three children, two cats and one dog and live in Portland, Maine. What a beautiful, beautiful location. Lisa, welcome to the podcast. It's so great to have you. Mark, it's so awesome to be here. Thank you for having me. This is a topic that is absolutely amazing. So I've been speaking about the future of work for a couple of decades now. And your book, Work Better, Save the Planet, is why we're here to talk. We wanna talk about this book, talk about your thoughts, theories, ideas, why you do what you do and kind of what led you to this title and kind of we wanna start out slow and kind of get into the depth and substance of things. I love the title for the planet. So environment, planet. What moved you to choose that? And obviously there's some glimmer of activism and environmentalism in what you do and why you do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I really, really have been looking forward to talking with you. So I can't tell you how excited I am just to have a chance to talk and listen. Work Better, Save the Planet. Actually, the title was inspired by a Patagonia ad I saw a couple of years ago and it was Dress Better, Save the Planet. And you know Patagonia, they have an amazing regenerative circular approach. They're furniture, they're a peril. They wanna keep out of landfills. So if you buy a piece of their clothing and it wears out, they wanna take it back from you. And then if it's decent, they can resell it as something else or even break down the fabric and create something else. So that's the whole idea of circular and circular economy. So, but anyway, when I saw that headline, it was probably like an ad in a back of a magazine or something. And I immediately substituted dress with work. And I thought, yeah, you know, it's work better, Save the Planet. We, there are so many things we can do differently. So many things we can do differently. And so that was the spark for the title. I have to say it had a different working title at first and then realize, you know, this was the inspiration. So I modified it. Yeah. Do you have in your heart or heart some activists and environmentalism in you kind of, are you concerned about the planet and climate change and things like that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And, you know, as I've gotten older, it's gotten stronger. But I was raised in the 60s. You know, think about in the early 70s, the energy crisis that we went through. I remember as a young kid, you know, waiting in the long gas lines and it was by license plate. Like you had even in odd days that you could go to get gas. So I remember going with my dad and the, so that energy crisis and the focus on Earth Day. I mean, I think the first Earth Day was 1970. I was probably eight years old. And so I'm in Maine. I mean, Maine is, and for the global listeners, Maine is a very rural state in the northeastern part of the United States. We have a very large area with only a million people. My grandfather was a potato farmer and then my uncle continued the farming. And so it is just sort of part of our being, you know to be in nature, we grow up with it. It is just, I mean, I'm looking out into the woods. I live in a house and I'm fortunate enough that I got beautiful woods right behind me. So, and it's not just the environmentalism. I think it was being raised in the family I was raised with a older brother and sister and my parents that anything could always be improved. You always looked for what could be made better and never take the answer, it's just the way it is. That's just not acceptable. And so then now having three children of my own, the youngest is 16, the oldest is 24, I do. I feel really bad about what we've done to the planet for the generation that's inheriting it. And I think it's my own personal obligation to do whatever I can to make whatever impact I can. I love that. And I kind of sense that out, although, and it comes out in the book as well, but there is this overlying the future of work also has the planet in mind. It has, you know, how do we work in the future? How do we save the planet? How do we have this different focus on our world? And we've seen it so in many different aspects, not since just since 2015 with the Paris Agreement and the Sustainable Development Goals, but we've seen it with the new things just in the last few years with the new EU ESG taxonomy, the taxonomy about environmental social governance, some new sustainability reporting, the SEC says investments now and organizations need to talk about their carbon emissions and their climate impact, their environmental impact in their processes. And if they're doing that, that it needs to be reported. So it's open and transparent. And many other things coming down the lines on how organizations are impacting the environment. I have to say, I'm kind of from the old school, I used to be an instructor trainer for OSHA for the Occupational Health and Safety Administration of the United States and I am from the United States. And so I was always concerned about the health and safety aspect for work and construction and how that working environment which was very much tied to ergonomics and setting up your environment and workplace injuries, repetitive motion injuries, carpal tunnel, neck injuries, safety, personal protection equipment and things like that in that work environment, which was more kind of a personal issue of how we worked and where we were developing and not so much the environmental reason we were doing it. How is there a better model of how we work? And in your book and the introduction is this mention of job dissatisfaction. Worldwide globally is very high. It's at one point it's over 80% globally of job dissatisfaction. How big of a factor does your workplace environment, the way you work affect that, contribute to that? It's a tremendous impact. And then Gallup statistic, Gallup has been measuring people's engagement with work for more than 20 years and that statistic has barely wavered from 87% globally being unengaged, disengaged in their work to 80%. It's just hardly moved the needle. And so what you just described, I love how you describe it because you just described all the physical safety aspects of work. Now we're finally focusing on the mental and psychological safety aspects of work that have been ignored. And that's part of the opportunity and part of my, in writing the book, one of the things I've always been frustrated about is the huge number of people that are left out of the workplace in the way of working. So I'm a feminist. Now, I love the term environmental feminist. Yeah, that's me. So I don't shy away from that label at all. The opportunity in rethinking work in the workplace is to finally create a way of being that is much more inclusive. And let's be frank, the industrial revolution is what impacted how we work today and that just hasn't changed. And the number of people that are left out of gender, this diversity, the world is a spectrum. So it's not just autism and being neurodiverse, but we've got gender spectrum. We've got ethnicity, the age. There are just so many aspects that are a much more inclusive and colorful world. And yet, if you look at the spectrum from red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, I feel like the workplace has been really narrowly focused on blue, if you know what I mean. So it's like a really, really small. And so our opportunity is to be much more expansive. And it's through conversations and listening. It's as simple as that. It's as simple as that. How many times have we heard some of the happiest people in the world are those with the least amount of stuff? I mean, it starts to tie to minimalism. That's why I see it as so interconnected. You know, I love the diagram you did of the 17 sustainable development goals and you reconfigured them for the proportion of impact, right? And that diagram like add a link to your show notes because I just think it's brilliant. And that's the type of thinking that we need and we need to encourage it all levels, all parts. I agree and I appreciate you mentioning that. It's really good to hear those things because so if I were to look at the top four ways to draw down our environmental problems or climate change issues or human suffering, you know, and say, okay, what are the four top things that are the most impactful that would really address and solve those problems? The top two ones are, sorry, the top one is global food systems reformation which is the largest employer of women and girls in the world as the largest employer in the world, period. It's also the largest replacement of GDP and global employer in the world, which is a lot to do with work. What are the ergonomics? What does that workplace look like if you're working in the food industry, whether you're a farmer or a server or a waiter or if you're a waitress or if you're in food production where you're packaging and processing food to go to market or grocery stores. The second and third is really tied to women. It's empowering women and girls and the fourth is rethinking refrigeration and it's kind of how we draw down the heating of our planet through this old technique of refrigeration that we use in our world and that is sinking. But I really love that you kind of address the female part of it and we've heard not just in the pandemic and the COVID times but well before it, there's a lot of inequalities. There's a lot of issues in the workplace around gender that could really flip the switch on how we work in the future, how we take better stewardship and care of our planet, our employees and our workplace. So that has something that not disengaging so that we enjoy it. So I'm fortunate and I'm sure you're fortunate in many respects that I get to work with people that I also enjoy and that I wanna inspire and bring on move on the right side of history. And so I don't have to walk down the street and say, oh no, there's my colleague. I don't wanna see her or him because I don't enjoy working with them. I don't enjoy that work environment. And so it's nice to hear that you bring that aspect in there. I'm not sure if any of that has to do with the reason why did you decide to write this book but I would like to hear why did you decide to write this book? Well, I started my work in the workplace more than 36 years ago. And over that time, I have not only seen so much waste, I've been a contributor. I've been a contributor to waste and in the work that I've done. And so I just felt like this was the time that I needed to take. And I guess, the pandemic gave me that sort of push to say, really, this is the time to just make your voice heard. Again, I'll reference my parents, but they, they instilled that you use your voice to make a difference. Use your voice to make a positive difference and do what you can. You gotta show up. So that, that was part of it. Just, I just felt like this was the time I needed to say what was on my mind. Oh, that is great. And is it because you've been dealing with architecture? Is it because you've been dealing with a work environment that also that it was about time to address the elephant in the room? When are we going to change that or did it really spur out of the COVID? It was, I mean, it's not the architecture as much as the disengaged people. People, I mean, that doesn't drive you crazy to think so many people are not engaged in the work. We spend more time working in our lifetime than virtually sleeping in our lifetime. We have one life and so many people are spending a huge amount of their life miserable. Oh my God. And then that ripple effect, right? Because as I say, it's not just the work you do, but how does that make me feel when I come home to my family? What's the impact on my partner, my kids if I'm just sort of not feeling really engaged? And then how does that ripple effect into my neighborhood, into my community? I mean, I really do believe that work is such an essential part of our life and existence that if there's an opportunity with work, can you imagine going into work and then leaving work and just feeling awesome because you had such a great experience with your interaction with your colleagues. You felt like you were a service. You made a difference. You were working with your strengths. I mean, wow, instead of depletion, you get renewal. And then what would happen if you then go home and you would have that energy to, and that's what COVID has given a lot of white collar workers is more energy and time. They weren't sitting in a car commuting or having to leave early in the morning and missing their kids go off to school. So that realization that work could still get done. Again, it's a privilege. It's not all jobs, I recognize that, but those that can have an opportunity to really rethink work and what energy does that give back? How about how much energy we could channel off of that to solve some of our world problems, right? Community volunteer engagement has also gone down over the years because people don't have the time. So think about all of these mission-driven organizations that are trying to make a difference if we could take some of our energy that was sapped from commuting or other aspects and we're able to give back. So that's that whole world. That's that whole world of, I'm not polyannish, but I do think there's so much we can do to improve for everybody. So I have tons of books that I'm really interested in on that discussed reinventing work, the workplace, organizations. Lazlo Buck has a great one. He used to be with Google and I think it's called Work, as a matter of fact. And then Frederick LaLue, I've got his book here. I'm actually part of this book, Reinventing Organizations. There's Good to Great that talks about teal organizations as well as reinventing organizations from Lazlo Buck, talk about that as well. It talks not only about the community and the culture, but how we build up that organization. And I'm glad we started out our entire conversation kind of talking about the feminine of everything and the environment because I see mother nature as the true feminine as well. But there's something that a lot of us miss and that is the model or the structure of those type of organizations. And that is a very hierarchy model. It's a model where there's only a few at the top and the laborers, the slaves, the peasants, the farmers are on the bottom. The ones who are doing the work who are really holding up the organization and that in this very hierarchy model. And it's one that I talk in different aspects about where it's a step away from this ego centric, the only man at the top, not woman, but man at the top kind of ruin this hierarchy structure to shift out of that ego into a more ecological state where we're kind of in harmony with other species. But there's actually one step further beyond that. And it is what I call SEVA. And it's one where SEVA is an old Sanskrit word that means in service to life. And I throw in my own version of that regeneration or regenerative selfless service to life. And it's what is that 100, 200 years BC such an old Sanskrit word that really has this depth and meaning of the journey that we need to be on to a new model of structure. And the reason I bring this up and I'm sorry about the long setup is it's an organization structure. It's a model. It's a way that we work. When if we work, what model are you working at at work? Is your organization extractive? Is it a hierarchy model? Is it a holistic model? Is it a circular model? What kind of working conditions do you have? Do you have a boss and it's a very hierarchy chain-oriented of command the way you work and how does that feel? And how does that feel as an employee or what type of environment is there? But there's a tie to that feminine and there's a tie to our environment. The world has a model that's always worked and functioned forever. And it is definitely not one of hierarchy. And we've had more than 21 civilization frameworks in our world before. Early antiquity, Mesopotamia, Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, on and on. And they've all failed. They've all collapsed or no longer exist. And we see the ruins of the Greeks and the Romans and these Aztecs, Incas, and Mayas that are no longer here. But what we forget about is that they're all operating under that same hierarchy model, which doesn't work. It doesn't work for humanity and it's not how our world works. And so I wanna know and work better, save the planet. How are your models? How are they getting us out of this hierarchy system into something that really works for us that makes sense the way humans work but also the way the world works? They will only if you've got, again, I think we were talking earlier, the open-mindedness to believe that things can be different. And I also wanna, because I am glad you said that, I do believe it's feminine and masculine energy. It's not male-female. So there are people walking around that have a lot of either one and gender doesn't have to necessarily do with it. Although I recently heard, and I really liked this, it's mother nature and it's man-made. So you probably, right? Like, what's going on there? So the core to my approach, the foundation of my approach is that all voices need to be heard. All voices need to be heard in a change. I do talk a lot about transformation and change and whether it is workplace change or community change, any type of change that happens. We have got to invite all voices in with care and consideration, really listen and then have that conversation versus the command and control top-down approach. That will backfire to any type of change or maybe it will get you where you wanna go but you're gonna lose a lot more people versus the much more, I do think of it as a circle, like I think in circles, I like the idea of circles. So I do think of it as a more inclusive, whether it's bottom-up or just, I mean, one of my favorite architectural solutions in a workplace is to take a room and take the table out and just put six chairs in a circle and have people have a conversation because it removes a barrier. It's just you have conversation moving around a circle versus with somebody at the head in control approach. So that's a very micro look at the same system, right? Apply that system to the organization. I love that. And we can really go deep because it's not only everybody has a voice but it's also community building. That's how you build communities when you give everyone a voice and you build an organization. An organization is really a twist on an organism that is living and moving and changing and growing and I think it's so important that people have their voice and then there's also aspects where even though they have a voice, doesn't mean necessarily that's where the direction of the organization where the organization is going to go or needs to be that follows that mission or that core. There is an interesting thing and so maybe even wanna back up a little bit and ask you specifically what kind of things have bubbled to the surface during COVID-19 that proved your point, proved what's in the book to say, boy, we really had a sorry, fucked up system before and now we're seeing it in so many ways that it's time for a change. We need to adopt some of these new models and the things that you discuss in the book. Well, one of the biggest impacts and before the pandemic, we know workplaces were empty, like not used, workstations were empty, 40 to 60% of the time. That was a huge waste of space and that was before remote working was widely accepted as it will be now and as it is now. Why does this matter? It's because commercial buildings contribute 39% of our carbon emissions, 39% from embodied carbon and operational carbon and then you've got all the other things that go inside a workplace, right? So, and it's even more than that Mark, that empty space, that all of that empty space and you're heating and cooling empty space, let's just shift and think how many homeless people are there in the world? Think of the, like why do we have a housing shortage and we have this excess of space and I'm just talking about commercial office, like look at retail, I'm sure there's a ton of other things, it just doesn't make sense. So that space concern or space problem has just been exasperated. And so now when people or organizations are saying, oh, let's get back to the office or what do we need for an office? It's like, you don't need one, like you just don't. Take all that money, take all that money and invest it in bringing your people together. It doesn't mean you can't still bring people together, like bring them together, give them what they really need which is training and development and conversation and team building and connection. So that notion of work needs to look a certain way. I mean, and then of course I'm sure we can tie it to capitalism and real estate. You know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I know is tied up into how things have always been. And there's also the fear of the unknown. What we've known is comfortable and to think about anything different is very uncomfortable. And that challenge of pushing through that change, often it's not the change itself, it's the fear of the unknown that will happen after the change. That's where people get the most concerned and hung up. So that whole space thing is something that we clearly need to think differently. The other thing you just mentioned, I think you did earlier, unless I just substituted the word, but I thought it was love. And I think that bringing love into our conversation around work is something we can't shy away from. But leading with love, not being afraid to show love for colleagues. I mean, you hear the leaders that were most successful through the pandemic often were the most empathetic. Absolutely, yeah. So I don't know that I really just answered your question, but I just like those were a couple of things. No, absolutely you did. And I think it's really important to move forward with that approach because you're not only building a community and you're addressing what we saw during COVID, but also before that those are wasted spaces. So we're taking up space, we're creating emissions for what? That's not the core of our business. And this big shift that we're seeing now, and I mentioned it before, is this shift in how do we reduce our carbon emissions? How do we go net zero? How do we go, like Paul Pullman says, net positive? Let's move on the net positive. Let's capture more carbon. Let's have a positive impact on our planet. And those organizations like Panagonia, which you mentioned, like many others out there that are moving to these new models that are away from hierarchy, that are offering planetary services. Let's leave the planet better than we found it. And I know it sounds very hippy tree hugger to some people, but it's not, it's a better business model. It's a better model for life. It's one that's regenerative over time that your supply chain doesn't run out, that you don't burn bridges of your clients and contractors and suppliers that you don't work your employees to death, that they hate you, they hate your organization and are disengaged at work and care more about TikTok or Twitter or whatever else that they're worried about than they do are engaged at really saying, boy, I love my colleagues. I love to work with them because it's that love, it's that family. I know if I get sick, they're gonna watch out for my back, that they provide me with enough to sustain my life and to sustain the life that I live and to regenerate that for the future. I love that you talk about transformations and that there's a change involved there. I just wanna get your thoughts and feelings, but I also wanna make a statement about that. So a lot of, especially in the United Nations, World Economic Forum, we constantly hear about these, the need to change on the need of this new project. We have a new project here. We're gonna work on this project to bring food or water to these areas. We're gonna have a project on a city transformation. Those type of the distinguishing that we need to be clear on is transformation is not the same as a project or as change. Transformation involves change, but not all change is transformative. So if we think about change or look at things better or improved or different from the past, these changes are external. They can play easy ways of like buying a new piece of equipment or getting ping pong tables or lava lamps or pool tables at your work or going on a diet or growing a beard. Those are changes, but the problem with those type of changes or projects, they're not transformative because you can easily go back. You can reach back for that box of cookies and break the diet or go out and eat tons of hamburgers or whatever it is. You can cut off that beard that you grow out and you're right back to where you went for before. The problem, the difference is, is transformations on the other hand are irreversible. Once that door is open, it can never be closed again. The butterfly cannot return to the chrysalis and go back to being a caterpillar. When transformative shift happens, it's an internal process which shifts our core values, our desires and is a lasting change, but it's also a better model. It's a better model for work. I've worked for some organizations and I'm sure you have and your husband has and family members that you know as well. I've always wanted to have this feeling that I am ownership of those organizations, that it's my baby, that I'm not just nine to five for a paycheck, but that I like the people I work with that I enjoy going there and that I'm feeling self-worth because I'm making that organization better, that I'm achieving something that is worth getting up in the day instead of otherwise and that self-worth. And so for that long setup of the question, I want to hear about these transformations and changes because in work environments and the way we can work better, we've seen the past of the sleeping pods, the lava lamps and that and some of these changes that really can be broken or only be project-based. And so yeah, we did that for one year and then it piddled out and we never did it again or we never continued on that transformation. And so I want to hear what your experiences and how you deal with that. Yeah, no, that's such a great example, the change versus transformation. And that's why the human behavior part is so important and including people in the conversations about what's gonna change or what will be transformed. So they're part of it and they own it. That's an idea of ownership. If I am part of a conversation of something that's going to happen and transform and I'm part of it from the very beginning and I understand why it's going to happen and I'm engaged in that conversation all the way through, I'm more likely to have greater ownership of the resulting change and therefore have been part of that transformation. You know, a real simple example that I can use is a CEO of a technology firm. He was really frustrated. He said, you know, like my engineers they're just always sitting at their desk, they're eating their lunch at their desk and I really want them to just take a break and go, you know, like, so let's create a really wonderful lunch room for them, a great experience. So, you know, thousands of dollars is spent, they create this really cool space with Wii games and foosfall and all that. And if, you know, I walked through a couple of months later I'm checking into the CEO, how's it going? He's like, well, he said everybody's still there with really either eating at their desk. I don't, it's like, so where do you eat every day? Oh, of course, my desk. The leader doesn't transform change his behavior then he's not gonna bring his people. He was giving permission or not giving permission through his own behavior. So you can't just change an outside thing which is what you just described. It's something that could be changed back or stripped or returned. You gotta bring the people in to that Y so that they own it and they will change their behaviors. And one of my favorite books, have you read Atomic Habits by James Clear? I have, I've got it right here, I can pull it off. Between him and Charles Derhigg in the power of habit, how we work is all based on habit. Good or bad, how we work is habit. And how we treat the planet is habit. I face a lot of resistance with any type of change initiative. It's just in one of the biggest ones is this idea of sharing. We're in a sharing economy. We've shared cars and Ubers, bikes, library books. I mean, you think about all the things that we share in our day-to-day living. But in the workplace, most people have never had to share a desk. And when you tell them that this desk is now gonna be shared by others, they freak. They freak out, right? What do you mean? I don't get my desk. So, but why, what do we say that you should be sharing? Well, how about the fact that 60% of the time the desk is sitting there empty and one empty desk is the equivalent of driving a car, diesel car, 6,000 kilometers a year. One empty desk equivalent of 6,000 kilometers a year in a diesel car. So you try to make these cases for why you should work differently and there's huge resistance. And it won't be until people understand the impact that their behaviors have through work in the workplace that they might be willing to change their behaviors. In the city of Portland, I don't know how many years ago, it must have been 10 or more now, we adopted a pay for trash bag ordinance. So you have to pay a lot of money for a trash bag. And why? Because we have recycling. And so, the less you put in the trash, then you have fewer trash bags to buy. That had a tremendous positive impact on our recycling rate. Now, I'm not going to say, I know the issues with recycling and there's still a lot of wish cycling that people are throwing stuff in that really isn't recycled. But if you'd asked me 10 years ago, Lisa, do you want to pay 10 times the price of a normal trash bag for your trash? I'd say probably not. But once I understood why and see the impact, I'm like, okay, I'll change my behavior. I'll adapt. You also mentioned, I just wanted to go back to this because it was on my mind when you were talking about it. When you were talking about being a hippie and tree hugger. Tree hugger, yeah. Activist environmentalist kind of has a stigma to it in some aspect. The world needs it right now. And would you call an aunt a hippie? I mean, let's look at the, you know, have you read? I'm sure you have EO Wilson's work. Oh yeah, I've got it right here. Yeah, I mean, sure you do. I'd love to see your library. EO Wilson's book, yeah, there it is. Yeah. Yeah, right here. I love it. This is the illustrated version. Oh, I like that. I've given it to all my kids. You know, it's the kind of illustrated version of the naturalist, but yeah, there's, I mean. Yeah, so I just, you know, the labels, I think we have to let go of labels, you know, and we talk a lot about mental health and mental wellness in the workplace. And there's so much stigmatism, you know. I just think we push through the labels because we don't have any time to waste worrying about those. We don't. We don't have. We don't have. That's a luxury to worry about a label. So call me any label you want. I don't care. I just want to make a difference. And I think that the idea of the natural, the systems and looking at how things work in nature and biomimicry and you know, all those other aspects, there's so much that we can learn and apply and we need to. And oh, oh yeah, Mark, the other exciting thing, and it is in my book, the tipping point for social change. So we think that you need a majority, a simple majority of 51% to make change, but the great news about social change is that we only need 25%. So what we're looking for is 25% of the courageous leaders who don't care what they're labeled and are willing to change how things have been done to do what needs to happen to save the planet and make work better in the whole community of living and being better. I love that. I absolutely love that. And I'm glad that you brought that up because that was where I wanted to dive back in a little bit deeper and kind of, if you don't mind, see if we can go even deeper on that subject. So I'm also big on the shared economy, the platform economy and kind of the future of some of these new models that are emerging, creative comments, you know, the common economy is really huge. And a lot of us don't understand how much we really share in this world or in our communities, parks and roadways and many, many other transportation, tons of things that we're already sharing and it's pretty much okay for a few reasons. Hopefully most of those are infrastructures that are being kept up to date with our exponentially growing world so that they can handle being shared economy. But where I wanted to dive in a little bit deeper is I love the concept of sharing a desk and open workspaces. And I personally, I do not want that ownership but I've also seen on the flip side that it really isn't always the most effective if there's employees competing. All I got to get into work early to make sure I can get this desk and this computer. I've seen situations where they've had these open workspaces, it's kind of a free-for-all shared desk, shared computers where in the morning they go and get a, I guess it's called a thin client out of a locker, it's the computer. They've got to go find a workspace, a desk or somewhere standing or sitting. They plug that thin client in, they get it fired up and then it's got about 15 minutes or so or maybe less if the technology is good to get it fired up and configured right and make sure they've got the good chair that's ergonomic or whatever. That that is not always the most effective where they're being micromanaged and they punch in and out. And so I want to see what your resonance has been and how do we get comfortable in the workplace for that shared account. I can tell you, I live in a pretty metropolitan busy city in Hamburg, Germany. I do a lot of car sharing. I use a lot of electric cars so that they have a super electric infrastructure from many different electric vehicles. And so I do a lot of this car sharing as well. And for the most part, it doesn't bother me at all. I actually love it. I think it's great in many respects. But if I get into a car after somebody who's just smoked in there or has broken the lawn as alcohol in there or cigarettes or whatever else in there or cat hair or dog hair or whatever and just been a pig in that sharing economy to that commonplace, or that's different the way I want to live my life, that's a little frustrating, but not enough that I wouldn't use that service or that I couldn't come clear with that situation. What have you seen in the workplace, not to go against and say, oh, well, that's why that doesn't work, but what are you seeing there and how do we move beyond that? And is that also something that's in the environmental or the workplace to kind of, they've got the wrong type of trustless or non-trusting system set up to make that work that's not working, that's why. Yeah, yeah, no, those are great examples. And I think on the key thing with the workplace is the technology has got to keep paced with the mobility that people need. So what you described and getting something and setting it and takes 15 minutes to fire up, that's just not acceptable. You got to create a model that makes it easy and frictionless for people. And it's not just the sea of open deaths. I mean, that just isn't, all right. So the other one, I'm sure you've read Cal Newport, Deep Work, he talks about how distracted and we all need time to be able to focus and just think and think about how little time that people have for that. So this idea of a sea of deaths and people sharing, that's not the answer either. It's choice, there has got to be a choice and a variety of spaces and to move away from scarcity. So I don't feel like I got to rush in to be there first thing in the morning to get the best seat. And we've got to think of equity, think every desk should have the best ergonomic chair that's easy to adjust and people are informed on how to use it. And the desks are sit stand, so I can adjust. I mean, the one I'm sitting at is awesome. I could stand up or I could go down a couple of inches if I want. It's got to be seamless. We've got to support people with what they need to do. We can't put more, God knows it's hard enough to get up in the morning and get working, right? So you can't add more hurdles to that experience. So that's really focusing on what the users need and there's no excuse in 2022 why technology can't keep pace with what, and it's, the workplace doesn't keep pace fast enough with technology usually. So there's no reason why we can't get there. And if we're smarter about how much money is being spent on real estate and only use what is needed instead of all this excess, how much money is freed up to channel into technology and learning development and training? Because it can't just be the tech. You got to bring people along with the technology training. And that's off, there's a big gap there as well. So I do think that there's a lot that could be done to support it. But I also want to, like if I'm sitting here and talking to you and then I finish and I have to go write something for two hours, I want to leave this desk and go into an enclosed room and shut the door and be able to work for two hours. And I should have that choice. So, and I said workstations are empty 40 to 60% of the time, office space, private offices are empty 77% of the time. And think of it, why not? They're usually reserved for the highest up in the company and those folks are usually offsite traveling with clients. So there's that part of the physical aspect and the behavior, we'll come back to behavior again. If there were a compact agreement that you as the user of a shared car service agree that there's some sort of impact if I don't follow these guidelines, then I know it's part of the management of how do you manage that in a shared car service? I don't know any answer to that, but I do know how to answer it in the workplace. And that's who are working together agreement where all users come together and they decide how they wanna, it's the norms. How do we wanna be as a community, as a work community? What is respectful to each other and what does that look like? And when those people that are going to be sharing this space are the ones that write the norms for being in the space, you go back to that ownership. I'm gonna be more accountable because I was part of the process, I'll be more accountable for my actions versus a top-down, HR director said, this is how you'll be in this space, screw that. Nobody reads those, like delete, delete, delete. But if I was part of that conversation and I created those norms and they're visible, it's easier to hold each other accountable as well. I really do. There's one big book, I don't know if you've read it, it's The Big Five for Life. He's actually the, John P. Strelik, he's one of the first people I had on my podcast. Oh, cool. And he even writes a new one, it's The Big Five for Life continued. Have you ever read it? I haven't, I'm gonna have to read it. It's, well, in Germany, it's well known about every 23 minutes that people buy this book. Wow. So tons of copies. But there's, the reason I bring it up is there's such an important thing that has overlooked for organizations. If I were coming to this conversation as a CEO or HR director or somebody who was hiring, the cost of having a disengaged employee is huge. The cost of onboarding and hiring a new employee is huge. The cost of losing an employee because they're disengaged or because of COVID or now they realize, hey, I don't wanna go back to that job. It's awful. It's actually double than the cost of onboarding and hiring somebody new. And that there's a formula of not only time, effort, the organization that's structured in that, and it's really broken down into a model in this, which I thought was really interesting. So how do you, instead of all that wasted time, how do you put that same amount of effort in and quitting and finding a new job or making your workplace desirable somewhere else and maybe run the risk of going on a new organization is that's just as messed up as the one that you left and has just as many organizational problems and things as possible. But how do you become an entrepreneur and maybe fix and nudge and help change that environment by showing them that there's other models or ways that you would like to work or that are more efficient when you're there or showing them the time of productivity? The key part in this book is there's a big, huge part of productivity. And in your book, there's a section where you're kind of showing before and after pictures of an attorney's office and papers and books and everything all over legal documents and you wouldn't wanna go in there. And he held probably or she held most of her meetings in a conference room and never had clients in there. But now with the transformation of that workplace how much different working environment and also the opportunity to have clients come into your office and just the more efficient, better way of working. So there's a bunch of things I'd like you to discuss about those nuggets of wisdom and learning on how if we are in a space where we have to have paperwork where we have to be at a desk how can we do it in a way that's not still in the dark ages that we can be a little bit more progressive and do it more effective, which has that long-term effect? Yeah, so that example is actually when I talk about less and the opportunity to really look around and say what is it that we really need? And I think when you were talking about the hierarchy and ego, the size of space has forever been tied to ego and power. And so the bigger the space, usually the higher up in the organization. And again, we just inherit this way of being without questioning it. So the opportunity is to say, all right, what do I really need? How do I work? Am I left-handed? Am I right-handed? What do I need to have around me? And then question the assumptions of how things have been done. Now, attorneys is a great example. I've also done this with engineers that are used to having lots of paper. They've got plans, there's paper, and we know there's a transition to digitizing a lot more, it's a lot more efficient, it's easier, faster to find things. There's a lot of reasons why, but we also know there can be a lag in getting there. And so when rethinking that example in the book, it was all right, I called it the cockpit office. So it's just what I need to have around me and it's easily accessible. And what also happened is there's glass. So natural light can get into the interior staff who used to be just in the dark. They didn't have any natural light penetration for them. So it allows for far more efficiency and it allows that person to be more productive, right? And that's what we need to do. We need to really stop and pause and think, what isn't I'm trying to do? And what have I been doing that's just based on habit? It's habit because this is what I stepped into and I inherited it and I'm gonna adapt how I'm working to be this way. So it really begins with just stopping and thinking, what am I trying to achieve? And then how can I do it differently? And again, I'll go back to James Clear and Charles Dearhurig and all their work on habits. I think that that is so essential to read and to think about when rethinking the use of space. The other opportunity and why this worked for that attorney, those attorneys, which was a major shift for them, major shift is it was also equitable sizing. So everybody regardless of title within the organization whether you were an assistant or a partner had the same square footage of space to work within. And that gave them ultimate flexibility because as the ratios of attorneys to assistance change over time because technology eventually there won't be assistance, right? It will just be all attorneys or all paralegals. That will allow them to easily change the makeup without having to say, oh, we need to build a bigger office for so-and-so. It just flattens, it flattens that space, democratization of space, I guess you could call it. Love that. Yeah, that was definitely a lot of conversation and that also ties into the equity aspect quite a bit that you're discussing in your book. There are a couple of things. So I, one of my biggest mentors is William McDonough, Bill McDonough who is a McDonough and partners as Cradle to Cradle sustainable architect. And he wrote the book Cradle to Cradle on upcycling. I also work on some big city level projects with foster and partners and many other architectural firms around the world who are trying to create these new environments and a lot of them are offices or production facilities, manufacturing facilities that envelop the future of work and also these circular economy principles in this Cradle to Cradle thinking. But that goes back to the workplace. In that process that you're saying, oh, we're gonna build, okay, let's take Apple for an example. We're gonna build this new spaceship facility for all our employees, which we saw during the COVID was pretty much empty. We saw one or two people there wearing masks and filming the things during COVID, but it was a desert. It was like, nobody was there, it was a ghost town. And how do we in advance, create the future of working and get those integrations and you talk about this in the book. And so that's why I wanted to come out is how that process should look like and work in the future as you're setting that up, not only to be prepared for the future of work, but to be prepared for, and this was great with Elon Musk in many respects and some other organizations. If you deliver essential services, if you use mechanization and automation, you automatically have some certain social distancing in your work processes for your employees already set up in the way you run your organizational structure that should give you not only a better model for an organization, but also a better model when outside climate catastrophe or COVID or pandemics come along, that you already have these measures of resilience in place that you can pivot and say, now we're delivering essential services or now we're gonna offer planetary services or help with respirators or vaccines or whatever to still employ our people, but also to help out our suffering world in a way that is also, it tickles on shared economy, but it tickles on this planetary services that I talked about. And there's a model that you discussed it a couple of times in the book where there's gotta be some buy-in advance, but there's also gotta be a different structure instead of saying, this is how we're gonna do it. We've already given out the money. It's drop dead or go and then everybody has to get on board. And then you realize, boy, that was a big mistake. Tell us a little bit about those and what you've seen and what advice you give your clients on that process if they're in that stage of the game. Well, I really begin with purpose. I think having a clear purpose, I believe a lot in vision. From a really young age, I recognize the power of vision and having a clear picture of what you're trying to achieve. And I think it's important that that conversation happen and it be very inclusive. So many times that purpose conversation for an organization and clarifying vision is just the upper echelon of executives going off to an island and having a five day week. And then they bring back this on a platter and say, here's our vision. Everybody jump in and we're like, what? What is this? Instead, if you just invite your people into a conversation, imagine one of my favorites. Imagine the headline in 20 years about this organization, the impact we had on the world. What is it that would resonate with your own values that you'd be so proud to be a part of making come about? Just have that conversation and let it organically ripple again through the company because that's creating that ownership again. If I was part of creating that vision, I'm going to be more likely to want to help implement it and achieve it. So that's one thing, the space. Whether it's any of the big organizations that are always in the headlines for their office space, this just drives me crazy because we know it's been empty all this time and how many millions of dollars have gone into creating that. And again, it's often been based on an old model of determining how much space we need. We've got to move away from... And in the workplace, it's often square feet per head or square meters per head. And we've got to move away from thinking that way. And that's an organizational shift and a systems shift to really what is it that we're trying to achieve and what do we need to get there? And so I love the example of the resiliency because if something happened, we now know we can all, for the most part, go back to our homes. Again, I know it's not all workers, but why call our workers and certain ones can go back to their homes and be very effective. What can you do to set up your employees to be more than effective, to be completely engaged in what they're doing, wherever they're sitting? Often it's so basic. It is technology. I do think that you just simply cannot invest enough in technology and staying ahead of the curve. But the other thing is communication skills. It's like, it kills me how many times I will talk to a group of people and they spend more than two years now. They don't know how to do a breakout room. They've been on all these zooms and teams and they've never gone into a small room just like you and I are talking just two people talking. I'm like, oh, well, our people are disconnected and we need to get back to the office to connect at the water cooler. No, you don't. I love that. So, it seems so basic and I think that's part of my own problem. Is it for me, it just seems so obvious and it's not, I guess, it's not. So I just want to strip it all away and say like, well, what would happen if you didn't have your office? What would happen? What would you do? You didn't have it for two years. What have you done with two years? Exactly. And that's a big, huge thing. There's two parts in your book that are really, one is where you kind of have a twist on the word planet that you use, I don't know if acronym is the right way to phrase it and it has some meaning. I would like you to kind of briefly explain that to us if you don't mind. Sure. And then there's another one that ties to your family and please forgive me if I don't say it wrong about the ASSO-EB and the parallel with the workplace and how maybe how business leaders can apply these learnings into their teams as well. If you would cover both those very beautiful topics for us. Sure, sure. And I was calling it ASSO-EB. You'll start with that one. ASSO-EB. And then, but it's wrong. I don't, that's wrong. It's a Chevy. A Chevy. A Chevy. A Chevy. Yep, but I was saying ASSO-EB until the wedding and then I learned. So anyway. Is it Yiddish? No, it's African. It's from West, it's a cultural practice from well, my niece's new husband's family's from West Africa, Liberia. And so they introduced this tradition for their wedding. So they got married the day after Thanksgiving last year, 2021. And part of the tradition was they have a cloth, a uniform, beautiful fabric with different colors and designs that they chose to represent their union. And in the practice of a Chevy, all the family and friends were given some of the material, the cloth, and then invited to make whatever they wanted out of that cloth. So to wear at the reception. So we got this gorgeous fabric and I just was like, how cool, you know? So my husband wore a tie and my boys had vests and my daughter had a jumpsuit on and I had like a skirt wrap thing. And I can't sew to save my life, but luckily my sister-in-law can. So she made beautiful, just these beautiful garments. So we get to the reception. You know, you don't wear it in the actual ceremony of the wedding, but after everybody changes into their Chevy and oh my God, the head dresses, the everything, full, beautiful dresses, shirts, men had, I mean, just gorgeous. It is such a cool celebration. It's a way to celebrate the union and show support for the newly married couple. And so the tradition, Esho I think is cloth and Ebi is family. I probably have that backwards because I'm dyslexic. But anyway, it's like family cloth. So I just thought, wow, this was really beautiful. So how I applied it to the workplace, it's like, geez, you know, if an organization would simply provide the fabric of what people need, what employees need and let the employees interpret the fabric to how it best fits their way of working. So instead of a one size fits all approach, which is often how work is done and workplaces are done, you give people what they need, give them the space, the materials, the equipment, what they need and then let them configure to how it best supports their way of working. It starts to move into workforce strengths and what one of really great article I just read about helping people do what they love and how important that is. And we talked about love earlier, but really aligning people's passions and strengths with the work that they're doing. And then beyond that, look at the physical. Hey, if I happen to work better sitting in this office with this awesome fabric behind me that I love, let me do it. If that's gonna allow me to be more productive. So it's that idea that a Chevy approach to the workplace is an opportunity for organizations to say, okay, we're gonna give you a lot of stuff to help you be productive, but you can tailor it. That's what people want. They wanna be seen. They wanna be seen. They don't wanna be treated as just another number, right? They wanna be seen. So see them and invite them in. And when you do that, you are gonna, you talked about the cost of turnover and you're gonna have somebody who just feels seen and matters and they're gonna contribute and do better. So that's the a Chevy approach to the workplace, yeah. That is so great. I mean, because it's another form of entrepreneurship that's giving your every employee a buy-in, a piece of the structure of the piece of the organization that they're part of. And I've been dealing with this for a long time. And I call it, it's my baby syndrome or it's not my baby syndrome. If you don't have buy-in and it's just a job, just overbroke or a four-letter word work, that can be kind of negative. But if you feel like you have ownership, like it's family, like there's a piece of it that you can make decisions and are empowered, boy, what a difference does that make and work and performance and output and what you can contribute and the way you feel and when you leave and when you return that it's not a chore, there's no Mondays, there's no different feelings because you have that buy-in and that's beautiful. I love that. I'll share the planet tenant, just one other quick story, just remember this when you're talking. I don't know, eight years ago, I locked my keys in my car here in my garage and I didn't have an extra set, that's all I had. I called AAA, they came, the guy that helped me, I still remember him. He was like the happiest guy on the planet. He loved what he was doing. He just took the wire, whatever, he got my door unlocked and I still remember that. I still remember that connection with that person. He loved what he was doing and so I think it's important to remember that there were people that they just wanna do certain things and man, when you can match them up and pull that out, it didn't even just impact him. For him, it was just another day, another chore but it left an memorable impact on me. That's that ripple effect, right? That's what we're trying to get to. So people are seen, they're valued, they use their strengths and they're helping other people to be of service, right? To be of service, yeah. So the planet tenants, there are seven. Purpose, P is for purpose and that is that importance of clear vision and clarifying the purpose for why we're making a change or what it is we're trying to achieve. L, there's two Ls. L is for language and the importance of choosing your words very carefully when you're thinking about whatever it is we're talking about, words really matter. So being very clear about the language used. The second L is less and we talk a little bit about the notion of less, less is more. A great story about Yvonne Chenard and fly fishing and focusing on less. Then we've got A, which is ask and ask is being very intentional. Another book, I love Peter Block who wrote Community, The Structure of Belonging and he writes about the importance of including people in an intentional way, inviting them into a conversation. So ask is A, N is net zero. So many aspects around net zero, circular economy and on so many things we can get into with net zero but those are all very important. E is equity and equity, we've touched on a little bit but again, equity in the workplace, people have been left out. It's been a very narrow spectrum that have been invited and workplaces have been designed, not just workplaces but the way we work have been designed around a very narrow spectrum and equity is being much more inclusive. And then T is time because this is the time we were given this tragedy. I cannot imagine a bigger global thing happening to all of us that impacted so many having to learn how to work differently. And again, I'm talking about the privileged white collar workers who have been able to work remotely. There are so many that have been on the front lines and had no choice. And I still, I think there's opportunity to improve for those in the work that you've done previously with OSHA, there's a lot of opportunity improved but T is the time that we've got right now. It's T because time is running out to make a difference and it's T because we need those 25% courageous leaders now to step up and say, yeah, I am gonna challenge how things have been done. And we need the leaders to do it Mark because if they don't, everybody else is just gonna keep following along the way things have done. So I don't care when I talk about a leader, you can be anywhere within the organization. I'm not talking about just CEOs and C-suite. Anybody within the organization can step forward as a courageous leader and say, yeah, this is our time. We're gonna make a difference and we're gonna start right now. I wanna go into net zero just for a moment. If you don't mind, I would almost nudge you to revise that for the next edition or caveat that for discussions for into more net positive. But you, that we actually leave the planet and our workspace is better than we found them and that we see employees as valuable assets of our organization and not that the workplace is a valuable asset, but those employees and how their performance and how that works, that that's really valuable and that the environment, if they're working in an environment that is net positive and capturing carbon and doing planetary services and leaving the planet better than they found it, no matter what work it is, even if they're a lawyer, even if they're a notary or an accountant or somebody we might think, boy, that's the boringest job ever. But if they're doing things to make sure that we're leaving the world better than we found it that we're creating working conditions that are desirable to be in that get rid of that disengagement then that net positive effect is just one of the most impactful models that we can work on. But I wanna know, it's also a trend. So I mean, before COP26 and Glasgow, there was already beginning to be a lot of talk on this net zero. How do you see that? And it's on everybody's tongue. Everybody wants to be net zero. Everybody's pushing for how we can do that. How can we meet the ESG? How can we meet these standards? How can we envelop the sustainable development goals which have to do with that net zero, specifically for the workplace and what you're discussing in your book. What is your advice? How are you nudging them to get on the right side of history and to move towards that? What are you seeing? Tell us a little bit more about that. The need to be bold is where there needs to be, make a stake of a line in the sand and say, we are going to reduce our office space by 50%. We're gonna reduce it by 80%. Be super bold and stick to that and do everything you can to get there. So you need, these bold statements need, these bold ideas need to be stated clearly and then find every means possible to get there. The other thing that you mentioned just, oh shoot, I wanted to go back to it and I just lost it. Oh, then the net positive, I'm so glad you said that because remember I described the woman coming in just feeling like overwhelmed, coming into the office and then actually leaving, feeling with more energy. So when she went and depleted, she left more energetic and it's the same with the building system. Instead of just meeting the zero, it's like giving back the energy, right? So it's giving back energy to people and to the environment, to the world through energy change. So I love that. I'll take that under definite consideration to change net zero and net positive, yeah. But I think- Can I tell a story that's very similar to that that I like? I mentioned William McDonough and McDonough and partners. He did a building in India for, it's basically Honda, but it's called Hero Motors which is, it's combustible motorcycles. I wish they were all electric, but they did a facility there that does rainwater recycling, ambient water harvesting. They have a vertical garden on the roof. They have green walls. They have this beautiful place to work that's very regenerative and this circular economy, circle cradle to cradle principle that comes from Bill McDonough. And the story that I wanna tell you is that it's in an environment in India that has very high pollution outside. There's a lot of motorcycles, there's a lot of smoking, there's bad air pollution there. People go to work to get healthy. They wanna go there because the air is clean. There's food, they have a great job, they're respected, the environment is better. So people are actually going to work because they can get healthier air and better working conditions. And they're leaving also very positive and it's providing this big, huge community and it's all run on renewable energy. So all on solar panels and wind energy and stuff like that. And that's kind of similar to that story, but if we can create working conditions where people say, yeah, I don't mind going into work because it's not only do I love my colleagues but I love the environment that's been created. I can thrive in flourish and I'm giving back and it's better than what else is there. There's also this little diverging thing that happens in a lot is if you were to ask most people and this is coming up to one of the hardest questions that I'm gonna ask you for a response for, what model are they living? What's their model of life? A lot of people who are working jobs, they're working two models. They're working for a capitalistic or an extractive company in one model but their life model at home is very different. It may be heednistic, it may be regenerative, it may be organic, it may be a shared economy if they have a family, but those two models are actually going in opposite directions. And it creates this one, it doesn't create work-life balance which we talk about as well, but it creates this pull in total separate directions so that when someone wants to go to work on Monday or has to go to work, it's this awful feeling because you're like, what, this was going in this direction on the weekend, on the evenings with my family and it was great, now I've gotta go back to this. And it's a total, it's this diverging, you almost feel like, wow, that's a miserable life. And so if we can in this working conditions in this environment help those to get a work-life balance where those two kind of meet or support each other so that it's in the same direction. That's another reason why this book is so great as well. It's this purpose for existing. Is it aligned with the place where you work? Is your own purpose for existing and your family aligned with where you work? And is that going in the same direction? When it is, job dissatisfaction is non-existent. People are thriving, flourishing, writing books, feeling like entrepreneurs, even if they're working for a big organization like Apple or Google or wherever. It really gives you buy-in and it changes your life. And so I just wanted to kind of to mention that and caveat the hardest question I have for you. And that is, Lisa, what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? Not for others, not for your people you consult or work with, but what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? One of the most powerful exercises I do is envisioning the future. And I said I've done that for a long time since a young age. And when I write a letter to my future self about what I want the world to look like or how things are, equity is probably the biggest word that is front and center for me. There's so many inequities in our world and there's so much scarcity when there should be abundance. There's so much depletion when there should be contribution. That the world that I see is connected and it is healthy and inclusive. And when I think of a world like that I think of dying in 30 years and knowing that my own kids and maybe grandkids are going to be in such a great place to continue that trajectory. And I think if we don't get more of us, get more of us because I've not been a lifeline activist in this way. This is more of a more recent gradual coming into who I am at almost 60 that we just need to keep moving more of us in this direction and sort of plow past the naysayers that say, no, we can't do that or we tried that before and it's not gonna work or it's just not acceptable. It's not an acceptable answer. So I come back to possibility. I come back to a world of possibility where people are connected of service and can't wait to get up every morning and do whatever it is they were on earth to do. Whatever we're here for, I mean, can you imagine how cool would that be? That's the future world I wanna be a part of. Absolutely. I had a recent situation before I received your book and read it and we connected to be on the podcast with an old friend from the Hague University, Taylor Garrett, she has started some coaching. She's very big in environment and activism and kind of graduated with studies in this whole area and it changed her course, life's course through the university through a hackathon that I did and we've had numerous talks about climate and environmentalism and I talk about it quite a bit but she did a kind of a podcast with me or an interview with me, which was totally different and it has everything to do with what we've talked about today. She asked me, how do I do it, Mark? How do you jump out of bed in the morning? How are you disciplined on this thing that is existential? It's the climate crisis. It's like you can bury your head in the sand or be really disengaged or fearful of the future and she asked me for what I do in tips and tricks and we talked about something that's really interesting. So I've been standing for work and life pretty much for about 26, 27 or more years now, if not even longer than that. I'm at a standing desk now when if you ever see me speaking at an event or that I always stand and I never sit down. I usually standing off to the side and people think, oh, well, why? It's because I believe and I've believed so for a long time that we're in the Anthropocene of chairs. There is six to eight chairs per person on our world. We have 60 billion minimum chairs, if not clear up to 90 billion chairs. That is between six to nine chairs per person on our world or more. It's quite a few and if you think about it, we get out of bed after laying down, then we get up and go sit down in the bathroom and then we maybe sit down in the bathtub and then we sit down at the breakfast table and then in the car or bus or train to go to work and then we sit down at our desk and then we sit down at lunch and it's just a different thing. And so they say sitting is the new smoking, so to say but we're in the Anthropocene of the chairs and not only is this this huge way that we've built and we've done it in many ways, we've built the Anthropocene of cars, we've built the Anthropocene of different ways of working but these are all environments on how we live our life and how we move and how we act that really influence our temple, our way that we live, the way we enjoy our lives. And so we had this interview where she's asking me, well, you know, why do you stand and what does that do? And some of those things which goes back to my time with OSHA was learning about ergonomics and personal protection equipment and carpal tunnel and neck injuries and back injuries and work people who were missing time at work because they were sick or they were off because of things that were created in the workplace, things like that and or depressions or other things that are affected by the way we work and the way we live. And I would like us all to get rid of this verbiage of work. I would like it to turn into a lifestyle that that which we do, we're passionate, excited about, we enjoy it fulfills us and makes us feel equitable, it gives us equality to others it makes us feel like we're learning and growing and empowered and part of a bigger part of life. And I know that's very Western world or big or maybe this utopian vision, but I know those people who have that ability go on to impact and change and make so many big, big ripples in their life. And I just kind of wanted to bring that out it really ties to a lot of what we're talking about. How do you create an environment or a lifestyle that is conducive to not only the success of your organization, but to you as an individual to feel like, wow, every day I jump out of bed. One of the reasons I sleep so well is because I started standing. When I sit down, if it's not an engaging conversation, if I'm in a conference and I have to sit down at the United Nations at a conference table or a plan area and it's not engaging or interesting, I'll fall asleep. I train my body that if it's boring, I fall asleep. So I sleep like a baby, I can fall asleep in three seconds and I don't use an alarm clock, I jump out of bed. And part of that is because this lifestyle we've created and so I think that for me, when I read your book and it's a fabulous book and I absolutely love it and I highly recommend it, but that's what touched me is why aren't we thinking about this? Because it's about, I don't wanna be an individualist or selfish, but it is really if I'm thriving and flourishing and healthy and doing good and in a great working amount environment, I guarantee you all that I do is gonna feel that ripple effect and that positive, that net positive back in return and it's going to spread. And that's what I got out of your book and the connections and the stories you tell, it's absolutely fabulous. I highly recommend everybody go out and read it and get it and other than that, if I know I probably haven't asked all the questions you've hoped for. No, this is, I actually gotta take a stand now. I gotta take a stand with you, so. Yeah, I mean, I've got the same table we can. I love it, yeah. I'm driving my table down now, I've gotten driving that, so yeah. And the other thing you catch out of the corner of my on the wall, the big three, yes, the YES, that's the way I wanna live with a world of yes and possibility and I love that, taking a stand and I never thought about the number of chairs, but you're absolutely right, love that. Yeah, no, it's just been so fun to talk. Thank you, really appreciate the conversation. You're most welcome and I guess the last question I have for you is really, if I haven't covered the right questions that we needed to discuss in this book, what was the biggest takeaway that you're hoping to give everybody out of reading your book, your biggest desire when you set out on this journey? It is to really challenge how things have been done and I recognize that's not easy to do. I mean, I'll give the example of a really large technology company, Global, that even on Earth Day had done something that was really focused on the Earth in a very public way. And on that same day, I was having a conversation with employees of that organization who were talking about what swag they should offer when people came back into the office on opening day and I'm like, wait a minute, no swag, no water bottles, no tote bags, give them an opportunity to have a conversation with each other, give them space and just let them connect. That's what people need, if you want them to come back, give them space to talk and recognize I love the notion of not using the word work, we need connection. So connection and talking is part of work, it's social cohesion. When we're more connected, we trust each other and when we trust each other, we share information and that's what organizations need to be productive, give your people space. So just to have courage to say, you know, we're not gonna do the swag thing. Yes, we are gonna reduce our footprint by 50%. We're gonna let go of 80% of our real estate portfolio. Go figure it out, you can do this. I trust you, you guys are smart. I hire great people. Have those conversations and just start there because we don't need any more space. We need housing, we do not need more office space. Lisa Whitted, work better, save the planet. Thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas. It's been a sheer pleasure. We could really talk for hours. We've only tickled the surface of this but I would recommend everybody go read your book and also that they get your advice and you're consulting in your help to help them get on the right side of history and really get those disengaged employees into engagement because it's a big, a big part of your bottom line. It's a big part of creating that net positive future we want. Thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you, Mark. It's been a pleasure.