 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. We are coming to you live with another Zoom edition. I am your host, Scott Bernstein, along with my co-host, the doctor, James Wuchelado. And we got Benny behind the glass on the wheels of steel and then we're gonna bring in a very special guest, someone that is a true OG. John Quinisi, a former New York mob button man, turned blogger, content producer. I'm sure there's a ton more in the wheelhouse slash in the queue for Mr. Quinisi coming down the pike. We're gonna bring John on and we're gonna discuss some current breaking news, Maddie DiNaro, the number one most wanted mob suspect in the world, finally caught after 30 years in Sicily, going into a cancer treatment in Palermo, and we're gonna break it down with John and then we're gonna get into kind of the modern day state of his former crime family, the Lucchesis. So John, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So, Jimmy, this is really more of Jimmy's specialty in terms of the Sicilian stuff. So, Jimmy, why don't you give everybody like a primer on who Maddie DiNaro was and why this is generating global headlines. It was on the front page of all the New York news rags in the last couple of days, which shows you that if it's happening in Europe and we're getting headlines in New York, it shows you the reach of the story. Yeah, DiNaro was a mafia boss from the province of Trompany and he has a deep pedigree. His father was a big shot mafioso back in the day and DiNaro and his family sided with Totorina during the big mafia wars of the 80s and early 90s, a very bloody, I mean, hundreds of people were killed. And so for a long time, Corleone was the center of power in terms of mafia politics in Sicily where it used to be Palermo traditionally. And so people that were close to Riina also benefited from that. And so DiNaro was, I wouldn't say he was the cop would he to copy like in a formal sense. I don't think that's true in terms of like an actual title, but De facto, I think that once Provenzano and Totorina and those guys died off, DiNaro became, I think that De facto most powerful Don in Sicily. And so he was on the run for a long time and 30 years on the lamb. And one thing I would like to ask John, not only his general sense, but in my view, this is not something that I have like insight I mean, in terms of like direct information, but my sense, my intuition tells me that he was hiding in plain sight for the last 30 years. It's difficult for me to believe John that with drones and wiretaps and people talking that they had no idea where he was for the last 30 years. So, but anyhow, that's my take. So John, I'm curious to hear what you think about this breaking story. Yeah, I've mentioned before that instead of going out of Italy, the reason why he's and he has traveled that Italy, the reason why he stayed, he stood where he knows, where he knows the people, where he's protected, where he had a network of people helping him. That's why he stood where he was, but hiding in plain sight sometimes I guess is the best way to go. It worked for me. And it worked for all, you know, all three bosses, himself, Vattorina and Provinzano, all were caught in Sicily. What does that tell you? Yeah, yeah, I think that they probably were insulated and that the state, I'm guessing, either knew where he was and looked the other way or they just weren't looking very hard. And in either way, it tells me that there's still some problems in the Italian state in terms of this criminal political nexus, you know, people that are interconnected with organized crime elements in the government in Italy. Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of corruption with their politicians there. Yeah, and would you say my sense is that, again, this is an unfolding story, so I'm just speculating here in all fairness, Scott was texting me, you know, how do you think this went down? I wouldn't be surprised, it would be interesting to hear it, John thinks and Scott, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the organization gave him up because they knew he was vulnerable, he has cancer, and if someone didn't give him up, knowing that they could ascend now, they could rise to the top position with him out of the way and maybe some agreement with the government that the government now has lays off of me for at least a while because I gave up, I gave up the narrow. Is that plausible? Anything's possible. I just don't, from what I gathered, it's not how he was caught. I don't believe anyone turned them in. He was caught basically from his family and associates speaking A on the phone, talking about cancer and treatments for cancer, and B, they had their computers tapped as well and they were Googling, you know, cures and treatments. So that set off alarms by the investigators and they, you know, they looked into it. How long do you think they had him under surveillance before they grabbed him? They got him at the hospital in Palermo, either about to receive or finally receiving his chemo treatment. Well, the thing that I found out is that, first of all, is he made a very, very big blunder. If you're gonna use someone's ID, do not use the ID of the son of a boss. And that's basically what he did. He used the boss's son's ID. And he does look very, he does look pretty close his identity to that guy, right? And what they did is, and I mentioned it in my video, that when they narrowed down this list of names of cancer patients with his birth year, 1962, they narrowed a list down to five people, right? Out of those five people, they picked this name out and they seen that this person had gone to two treatments. And what they did with this mobile mapping where they were able to get the guy's phone and then map out where he was on those dates and find out that this guy was nowhere near this hospital in Palermo, that set off even louder bells for them. And that's how they narrowed him down. As far as surveillance, they went into the system and came up with that he's due for another chemo treatment. And that's when I think that they set everything up. Because remember at that point, they're not 100% sure, but they do have the guy's address. They did know his address. Why they didn't pick him up at the house? I don't know because they did know the address. He's living in a house under an address that this guy's name is the owner of the house. I don't know, did they surveil the house? They had them, right? Did they, why didn't they pick them up at the house? I don't know, but they, I guess they figured the best place to grab them is in the hospital. Oh, also let me ask you, John, do you think the politics of the situation is it, as far as I can tell, D'Naro is one of the last holdouts from the Totorina era. Would you say the power shift is now totally back to Palermo, the old school like in Zerillos and those old school clans? I would go out of limb and say that that's where it's gonna be. Yeah. That the power is gonna be back in Palermo. Do I know that for a fact? No, but he was the last from that regime, that Totorina regime. Supposedly right before Provenzano gets caught, captured, he handed over a treasure trove of documents to D'Naro. They haven't found it yet. They, I don't know if you just know that they found this second hideout. I don't believe so it was a mile away from where he was living. They find his bunker and, but the documents weren't in the bunker. They feel that somebody cleaned up when they heard news of his arrest, which is probably a case. But I don't think he had only one hideout. He probably did, there's probably gonna find out that they had more. He probably had 30. On the run for three decades, even though I tend to agree with Jimmy that I have a hard time buying that the law enforcement and the government didn't have any clue where this guy was, but... Well, look at the hospital. He's posing with a picture of one of the nurses, a male nurse in the hospital, right? You mean to tell me that guy didn't know who he was. They're going after the oncologist right now because supposedly the oncologist had to do some kind of DNA, which would have exposed his true identity. So if he's on their investigation, the nurse is gonna be on their investigation. The guy who rented the house is on their investigation. This is the guy who owns the house where the bunker was is on their investigation. So it's opening up a whole can of worms. Another thing that I suspect, and I know you've talked about this on your show, John, that it's another indication that not only that the power shifting from the Totarina allies to Palermo, but more generally across Italia, the power shifting from Sicily to Calabria. Absolutely. The power has shifted from Sicily to Calabria. I spoke to somebody that was just in Calabria not long ago, and that person had told me that Calabria now is worse than Palermo in its heyday. And in the 80s, you just mentioned all the people that were killed. I think it was up to almost 1,000 people killed that were not only part of Kazanostra, there was judges, there was civilians, there was associates, law enforcement, there was a lot of people killed. For someone to make that statement that Calabria is worse than Palermo in its heyday, that's a big statement to make. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's sad for those of us Italian-American, I mean, just for anyone, but those of us who care about Italy and that part of the world. But just a little context for my own situation with this, I know Donaro was one of the, you're talking about the bloodshed in the 90s. He was one of the conspirators who plotted the murder of Felici Bucciolato in 1992 in Castellamare, who was Felici Bucciolato was one of my dad's distant cousins and that's where we're from, Castellamare. And the Bucciolatos were part of the old families there, like Gonzarillo, Badolomante, and Totorino wanted to cleanse, neutralize that. So even in the 90s, they were still killing members of those older families. So, it's a lot of bloodshed and a lot of tragedy surrounding this individual. Well, he's directly linked to Giovanni Falcone, you know, those bombings. He is involved with killing the young boy, the 12-year-old boy. I think he's, what's the name? That was in Zarillo too, wasn't it? No, no, no, no. In Zarillo's son was killed as well. Yeah. This was the, I forget his father's name, but his father became a cooperator and they kidnapped his son. They held him for like 700-something days. Right. They killed him and put him in acid as well. He was also involved in all the bombings in Italy. They even bombed, I believe, a museum was one of the bombings killing innocent people. He killed one of the bosses from Trapani. He killed his 20-year-old pregnant girlfriend. They strangled him. He was involved in some brutal murders. Yeah, that was Milazzo from Vincenzo Milazzo from Alcamo. Yeah, they, and it shows you the precarious nature of that world. Milazzo actually had sided with Totorina and it still didn't matter. They turned on each other. They started turning on each other by the 90s. He was a key player in the 1980s with the Palermo situation. Yeah, right. He was on SI, yeah. Yeah, so they started turning on each other, right? And they killed him and his girlfriend. So a very treacherous world. You also killed a manager of a hotel where he was dating. I think she was an Austrian girl, young girl, who made comments that he to the girl that he didn't like that this guy was, she was dating him. He was older. He took him out. He went to, he waited for the girl to go back to visit her relatives in her country and they pulled up in shock on the guy. Yeah, that shows you that it goes against the old saying, was it Bugsy Seagull, at least according to Urban Legend who said, we only kill our own, right? Like if you're a civilian and you don't have anything to worry about, well, things may be more complicated than that. That's the way it's supposed to be. But they looked to killing civilians when they declared war on the state, right? Back in the 80s, Dr. Reena, he didn't, everybody, it didn't matter to him. If you were civilian, you weren't a civilian, you know, they just declared war. So now we're gonna shift to America, North America and what's going on in New York City. We're gonna go back to John's former crime family, Luccheses and do a little, we've been touching on kind of the, I call them like state of the unions. Last, you know, a couple of weeks ago, we did where the Gambino sit today with the Sicilian faction taking power over the last decade to 15 years. And we're gonna go back before we leave, we wanna get John's take on some of that stuff. But first, let's just do maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes on where the Luccheses crime family is today. John kind of, in terms of the news that broke a couple of years ago, related to the modern, at least the modern day state as of a couple of years ago, really came from John and John's information related to this kind of bloodless coup that was launched from behind bars. Vic Amuso, the longtime boss of the Luccheses has been running the family in some fashion or another from prison since around 90, 91. And he's had series of front bosses. And in 2017, he took out his entire administration and replaced them via a letter. So let's just, John, why don't you talk about how you got introduced into the, you know, I know we talked a little bit about this the first time that you were on the podcast, talked about Maddie Madonna, but maybe in this, you know, talk a little bit about how you got introduced into this particular faction that's running the family today, specifically Big Mike DeSantis, Patty Redd, Della Russo, and Andrew DeSimone. Well, as far as Patty and Mikey, Patty was introduced to me through one of his guys, which is Louie, Louie Jack Ampero. And I met Louie through Johnny Cyburns. Louie owned a collision place. Johnny Cyburns was having some work done on his car. And that's how I met Louie and we became close. We were both out on Long Island and we started hanging around together. But I originally met Patty up in the Bronx at the club, but I got started staying with Patty through Louie. You know, I met Patty as a friend, obviously, in the Bronx and was introduced to him at the Ottawa Social Club in the Bronx. But Mikey DeSantis, I met because they put him in our crew, which is the Brooklyn faction, because he had problems with Carmine Avellino. He was in the Long Island faction at one time. He didn't get along with Carmine. Patty also was in Carmine's crew at one time. Patty didn't get along with Carmine. A lot of guys didn't get along with Carmine. I happened to get along with him. That's how I met Mikey. They put him in our crew. So Mikey DeSantis is a guy that was known as an enforcer, right? I mean, earlier in his career, I know there was a situation with Al Diarco, who was an acting boss for Vicka Musso, who flipped. And he said the reason he flipped, because he was in a hotel room when he saw DeSantis, and he, in his mind, did the math and figured that DeSantis was there to kill him, so he got out of the hotel room. So Mike DeSantis had a reputation 30 years ago as a tough guy. At some point in the last five, six, seven years, Vicka Musso made the decision to name him Acting Boss. What, is that something that when you first met him, you saw Mike DeSantis as someone that had a boss material? No, I don't know about boss material, but I mean, he carried himself well. You know, when I met him, I liked the way he carried himself. He was always very respectful. It wasn't, actually it wasn't Vick that, ultimately Vick made the decision, but it wasn't Vick's idea. They brought it to Vick, as you know, right? They reached out to Vick and told him that there's gonna be vacancy. And they did this because they didn't want the family's base of power to be in the Bronx anymore. That's why. So let's also let people know that the DeSantis, DeLaRusso, DeSimone triumvirate that runs the family now, allegedly, replaced Maddie Madonna and Stevie Wonder-Crea, who were a couple real OGs that had been kind of rising stars in the family, but got tripped up by a big racketeering murder case, murdering an old New York purple gang member, not the Detroit purple gang who were the Jewish mob in Detroit, but in the late 70s, early 80s, there was a group from the Bronx in Harlem that kind of took that moniker from the Detroit Jewish guys and slapped it on themselves. They became kind of a JV mafia. A lot of big shot callers came up from the purple gang ranks, including Maddie Madonna. So Madonna and Crea are on their way to prison and the Brooklyn guys want to make sure that it's not Bronx guys replacing Crea and Madonna. True, but Matt, first of all, as far as Stevie goes and at Stevie-Crea, I've never once heard anybody in the street call him Stevie Wonder. I know a lot of people refer to him like that. I just want to set that right, right? Secondly, Stevie was out there, Maddie and Joe Denapoli, Joe Denapoli was a concierge, that was the administration. Maddie and Joe were in on the gambling case in New Jersey. So they were already off the street. When the indictment came down, now Stevie was part of that indictment and now the whole administration was out. So to answer your question, yes, there was, but the vacancies were Maddie Madonna, acting boss, Joe Denapoli, Concierge, those were the first two vacancies because Stevie was out. So the other boss position was there, he was out. That's when the letter went to Vic, because those two positions, and that's where it started from, because they knew had that letter not going to Vic, Stevie would have put Bronx people in those positions and the base of power still would have been in the Bronx. Brooklyn never liked the Bronx. That's known in history as far as the Lucchese family goes. So they didn't want that power to remain in the Bronx and that's why they wrote to Vic, bringing the idea to him. This wasn't just something that he came up with, but he ultimately made the decision. Was there any pushback or any possible, the belief that there could be pushback from that Maddie, Stevie, Joe group? Well, what we spoke about was that we were hoping that it was gonna go smoothly the way it did it. If it didn't, we would take in guys from the Bronx out. That was a definitely- You were on, just so people know, John was in the Brooklyn faction. So he was in the faction that was taking over the power, not the faction that was being relieved of the power. No, we were the guys that were making the move for power. And we discussed that if it does not go smoothly, we were taking certain guys in the Bronx out. Target number one was Stevie Kria. Now, was this something that, I know I'm in some ways asking the same question over again, but was Stevie Kria someone that's ego was very bruised by this? Like, was he offended that Vic was sending word that you got to get out of the way? If he was, he didn't show it. He went along with it. And Maddie, same as Maddie Madonna? No, Maddie had no Maddie. Maddie, just so you know, Maddie was already taken out of his position because it came to light that, and I've discussed it on my show, what happened is how this whole case came about was that this, let me think of his name, Bobby Spinelli. Okay, Bobby Spinelli was a wayward Vic, right? Bobby Spinelli and his brother, Michael Spinelli were in on the hit on Peter, the attempted hit on PTO to system, right? So, Vic knows this guy's going home, the Spinelli, writes a letter to Maddie, gives it to Spinelli, tells him, I want you to go home, make an appointment with Maddie, give him this letter. Spinelli gets out, the first thing he does is open up the letter. He reads it in the letter, Vic is telling Maddie that he wants him to give Spinelli a million dollars. Where the million dollars is coming from is the Avalinos, Sol Dare, Codding Company and for 40 something million dollars. And was giving, I think 10% of it to the administration of the Lucchese family because Sally Avalino was on a shelf at the time. The reason he was on a shelf, they said he took a bad plea which means that he admitted to his status as a member of organized crime. He happens to be a real nice guy, but they put him on a shelf anyway to get into the good graces. He offers up this 10% of this money. Vic tells Maddie, I want you to keep two million, I want two million to go to my wife and I want a million to go to Spinelli. And I don't know if that two million to Maddie was for the administration or just Maddie. I don't know about that. So, and I also want you to straighten this kid out, right, this Spinelli. Maddie gets the letter, it's now resealed, reads it and decides I'm not gonna give this guy the money and I'm not straightening him out. Me tells Spinelli, I'm gonna meet with you in another week, I'll get back to you. Meets with him in the following week, doesn't tell him anything about getting straightened out, doesn't mention anything about the money and tells him, we're gonna get you a union job and construction, not a guy's gotta go to work, but not knowing that this guy read the letter. Eventually the FBI had a sauce that was close to Spinelli and worked with him. Spinelli is complaining to this guy every day and mother effing Maddie, right? The sauce tells the FBI, you know, this is what's going on. They turn around and say, do you think that we could approach him? He says, oh, absolutely. They approach Spinelli. The first words out of Spinelli's mouth is, these want me to wear a wife, I'll wear a wife for you because he wants to get revenge on Maddie. That's how the whole Michael Melnisch case happens, his thoughts from Spinelli. Melnisch was the purple ganger that was at one point very close to Maddie Madonna but started to chafe underneath Maddie's thumb and there was a woman involved and he was told to, you know, hands off and he basically sent word to Maddie Madonna to go fuck himself. Well, there was something else that happened. I'm gonna release it, but I'll just give you a little hint, I'll release it and I'll tell you when we're offline that Mikey knows Mancuso did something that when people hear it, anyone who hears it will label him a rat. Absolutely 100% what he did is off the chart and especially off the charts and especially that he's the sitting boss today. And we did an episode, me and Jimmy, I think kind of our first of these kind of state of the crime family episodes, we did one with the Bananos, I wanna say in October or November and we talked about Mikey knows and Mikey knows was a purple ganger that had to hold the Bananos inside of the Lucases. Yes, Mikey knows pulled a move against Michael Melnisch that took my breath away. I couldn't believe that he did this. We'll discuss it another time, but I'm just bringing you up to date. So what happened is, is that going back to Matty, although he was on the case in, although he was doing time on the gambling case in Jersey, he was already removed from his position indefinitely because it now came to light, what he did with Spinelli and that he didn't listen to Vic's orders. So he was already done as far as being the acting boss. Joe DiNapoli's position was on hold because he was also doing time. That's when the letter was written to Vic. So at what point do you meet Patty Redd, Patty Del Russo who became the underboss? Do you meet him in the mid 2010s? No, no, no, no. Patty, I meet Patty up at the club in the Bronx. I'm introduced to him. I would say sometime after 2013. Yeah, so at 2010. And then we don't start staying together until after I start staying with one of his guys, Louis Jett and then we start staying together in Long Island and we start to become close and we see each other all the time. And this situation with the takeover doesn't take place until 2017. 17, right. Some years later. So Pat, just for people that aren't fully aware who Patty Redd Del Russo is, he came up in the Lucchesis as a member of the Vario crew out of Brooklyn, the crew that's chronicled in the movie Goodfellas and was a guy just like in the movie Goodfellas when they all work, the best thing to do is go rob the airport. If you needed money, it was better than Citibank. Well, that was the line from the film. Patty Del Russo worked his way up to the point where by the late 80s, early 90s, he was in charge of all the Lucchesis rackets that were coming out of the airport. He was in the Teamsters Union, a lot of air freight racketeering and eventually back, I think it was in 93, he gets indicted and has to go do tears in prison but had made a name for himself at the airport with the Lucchesis. And then when he gets out of prison, I'm gonna turn back over to John. I think he transfers crews at that point. Doesn't he leave the Vario crew and go to someone else's crew? Louie Bagels? No, Patty was around. You're the expert. No, I just, Patty was around Louie de Dome, right? Louie Bagels. That's how Patty got straightened out. But then, don't forget, they all went away. When Patty got out, Patty was put with the Long Island crew with Carmina Valino. Okay. But it really got along with Carmine. He was with Carmine all the way until the transition. He was still in Carmine's crew. So was he at three different, did he start in the Vario crew, then goes to Louie Bagels? Louie and them, those were the Vario. Those were the Vario. Louie Bagels was part of the Vario, okay. That was their crew. So he came up on the Louie de Dome, was straightened out through Louie de Dome. Then when they all, like I said, went to prison and went away. When he came out, he went with the Long Island crew. He was put with the Long Island crew. So just tell us about, you know, what kind of guy has Patty read? I know there was, you know, he has a reputation. He's a little sorry to curse, do you? I know you can curse. I know he's got a reputation of being slippery. Yeah. Patty is, my mother named him best. My mother named him Napoleon. She used to call him Napoleon because he's got that complex. And he is very, very, Patty always thought he was the smartest guy in the room. Patty was very underhanded and, you know, proved that to me in the end and was always jacking to try and move himself into position, you know? That's basically him in a nutshell, you know? And the betrayal that you experienced was like kind of a come to Jesus moment for you, right? Well, absolutely. Patty, something else about Patty that a lot of people, I've said it a few times before. Patty had all guys around him that belong to other people. Like, you know, he had guys that he's still with that he said were his, well, you know, belong to him all with other people. And then he would, the guys that Patty had around him that crew was with me every day. We would eat dinner, we would go out, you know, we were with each other daily and they got along with me very good. I treated them as equals. Patty looked down his nose at these people, you know? And I got along with them to the point that whenever I would see Patty, he would remind me that, you know, he's with me, you know, this guy's with me. And I used to say, Patty, you told me that last week, the guy's with you last week, he's with you this week. You don't have to keep telling me that. So he was very insecure when it came to me because his guys got along with me and liked me and would be more than him, you know? So that was just one of my experiences with him. As far as him turning, I think that Patty was a little nervous that I got along with Mikey at that time during this transition. And like I said, he was jockeying for position. And he used a lot of what went on to his advantage. Instead of, like for me, if everything would happen with me was Patty, instead of me, I go and tell Patty, let's go. You know, where it's like, I'm with you. What do you want to do? Let's go. And that meant whatever it meant, you want to go to war, we'll go to war. Let's go. Patty didn't do that. Patty didn't take my side and didn't stand by my side. The reason being is people could say what they want. I know the reason why. Patty took a back seat and figured, oh, this is great because I take him out of the way. And it elevates me and it helps me that I could get into this position, you know? Because there was one time that Mikey DeSantis needed, you know, don't forget, he had a filled positions in and he had told me, you know, he had made a comment to other guys in our crew, my, the Brooklyn faction, Scotty Javasi had said to him, basically like, there's nobody else that I can't even think of anybody to put up, meaning to get straightened out. I agreed with him. A lot of guys at the table, it was at our Christmas party. And he said, so he told Mikey, he says, so where is our future? He says, you know, like, who do we got? Like after us, where's our future? Now, Mikey was sitting next to me. He turned to Scotty and he pointed to me and says, you're looking at him, right? I foolishly, and I do say foolishly, repeated that back to Patty. I also repeated that Mikey told me, I wanna know your schedule because I'm gonna need you in, you know, I'm gonna need you soon to help me foolishly. Again, I repeated that to Patty. Do you know what his reply was? He says, listen, tell him you're busy at work because they know I worked instruction. Tell him you're busy at work. Tell him, you know, got no time. No, you don't wanna get involved in that. Do you know why he told me that? Because he knew obviously Mikey wasn't looking towards him. He was looking towards me. So when everything took place with me, instead of standing by my side and saying, what do you wanna do? Let's go, whatever you wanna do, like I would have did for him. He took a backseat and let's see what he did. Kind of hung you out to dry and for all intents and purposes, you know, threw you out there to get hit. So yeah, so Patty is, I don't wanna call him a Machiavelli because he doesn't have Machiavelli's intelligence, but he tried to be a Machiavelli. What about Andrew DeSimon? The reason why when you first mentioned, you mentioned Patty, Mikey DeSantis and Andrew, my interactions with Andrew was very minimal. Here's what it was. I was at a wake, one of the last weeks I went to that wake where I think I've said that it was like I had to play at that week. At that wake, guys from the Bronx that I've known wanted to introduce me to Andrew. They only did an introduction. I shook his hand, said hello, and that was it. That's my only dealings with Andrew. But what was the reputation? I had never heard of them before. I had heard of Patty read before, I heard of Mikey DeSantis before. I never heard of Andrew DeSimon until it was reported that he was, you know. The only thing I knew about him was he was very quiet. And that his father was a very old-time known, well-known captain Sally Bulk. Other than that, I didn't know much about him. You know, we not only didn't, we didn't know too much about the Bronx. We didn't care about that. Don't forget, we didn't care for the Bronx, you know? So it wasn't like, you know, I tried to find anything out about him. I didn't- For people to understand all the moving pieces here, even myself. So DeSimon came from a different faction and he was put into the administration to represent that group. Well, Mikey DeSantis did was a smart move. You gotta remember something. What happened here is, you had the base of power in the Bronx, right? They were stripped of it and it was pulled back to Brooklyn. What Mikey DeSantis did is, as an olive branch, he put DeSimon in the position. So it was more like an olive branch. To represent the Bronx people that had just gotten the power taken away. Yeah, and you know, these guys, it was like, it's almost like spanking the dog and then giving them a bump. That's what they did. They took the power away from them and then gave them a little back. Do these tensions between the boroughs go back to even like when Ducks Corralo was, they go that far back? Is this like a, You know, as you know, gas pipe and Vic with this guy, Buddy Luongo, right? They snuffed him away. They killed him. They hit him at acting boss and then they whacked them. Anthony Buddy Luongo. Yep, so there's a history there. But the Lucchese family in itself is a Harlem Bronx based family. It was always that way. And, you know... That's where Tommy Lucchese was from. Yeah, this was... Speaking of your phone. Yeah, but so to answer your question, I think that with the Vic gas error, it started, you know, that Brooklyn Bronx friction started there. Let me ask one more question about Patty Red and then we'll wrap up with a couple of thoughts on Lorenzo Monino and what's going on over in the Gambino's. I've been starting to report a little bit. It looks like there's been some cross-pollination between the Luccheses and the Chicago outfit. I'm gonna give it to you briefly, all right? Yeah. I'm gonna give you a very brief answer. Yeah. Here's what I'll tell you. The only thing that I'll say, and I know a lot more about it, is that the big connection there is that Patty was away with one of the bosses from Chicago. Actually, John, I've done some digging over the last couple of weeks on this. Patty was away with three of the bosses. Okay, but he was close to one in particular. Right, well, Sally D, Jimmy Ardino, and Mikey Sarno. And Ardino's the one that he's dealing with right now. Okay, so it probably was him, but it wasn't that guy, Sally D. So that was, that is how the connection started. There's some other things, but that's what I'll say. I think we have to get in. I know, we talked very, very briefly about this. My sources are coming from Chicago on this, more so than from New York, but... But you know, this isn't something that just happened. It looks like this is something that's been going on. No, no, I'll just tell you that in my time they were going out to Chicago. Yeah. Okay, so the only thing I'll say about this is that what a lot of people don't understand is here's how this story will end. You'll have, Mr. Deloroso will not only be indicted in New York City, but it'll be indicted in Chicago as well. So that's how the story went. Scott, can you contextualize what you're talking about? The Chicago-Lucasian thing, I'm in the dark. I don't know what you're talking about. So there was some reports that surfaced on social media over maybe the holidays that Patty Deloroso was coming into Chicago and it was kind of like a power move and that he was coming in and taking over for the outfit, which I knew was BS. But I did find out from those rumors that the truth was that Patty Deloroso had some, or has allegedly, has some rackets in Chicago that he has a group of people looking after kind of underneath the Cicero crew banner and comes in there maybe once or twice a year, meets with some of these guys down in Florida and that it's not anything that's adversarial. The reports were that there was some tension between. One time he was down there with a female companion that wasn't his wife, who got obliviously drunk and embarrassed the daylights out of him. So it was... I heard yesterday I reported that there was a, he was there, the last time that I'm told that he was in Chicago was in Christmas 21 and that there was a dinner with him in Jimmy I on Rush Street that he had met with a couple of people on the floor. But again, this is not, I just, I wanted to get the story straight and the story that was circulating for a couple of weeks was like, there was this pending mob war with Lucchese in the outfit, which is just not true. But it does show us that the Lucchese have some interests in the Midwest in tandem or allegedly in tandem with the outfit. First of all, is anything that they would want to do out there, they would have to go to the people in Chicago and get permission for it. They can't just go there and take over. This is all being done underneath, again, what I'm being told. This is all being done under the... With permission. Yeah, the purview of Jimmy I, who's as OG as they come and is a guy that dates back to the 60s and 70s and was a part of what they call the wild bunch and is a guy that is very well connected and very well liked across the country. And according to the FBI right now, he's the one that solid D is like what Tony Accardo was or what John DeFranco was at the end, which is basically just a figurehead and other people are running day to day operations. Let me ask you guys both. I'm just hearing about this story for the first time. The rank and file in Chicago, did they resent that? Like New York guys like... They welcomed it. That was not reporting. Was that like, this was something that they said, yeah, come on in. It wasn't like... Because why? Because they could just make money together. Like... Yeah, and Patty knows these guys from prison. He also knows these guys or some of these guys from as far back as the early 80s. Patty's bust in 93. His federal racketeering bust, where he got sent to prison for 10 years and kicked out of the Teamsters Union. Some of the extorting that the Luccheses were doing and Patty was running point on, was extorting the main Teamsters local in Chicago. So Patty was in with the Chicago people 40 years ago. So they see each other as, you know, Amici and this... I think they saw a guy that they knew when he was in his 20s that has now ascended to a pretty high post in one of the five families in New York. And they see it as, you know, as currency and as a way to... Form a post. What do you say? Form a post. Right. So... It's interesting. Do you think this is a parallel, Scott, to our John with the... When I... Like finding out that Philly guys were operating in Boston? Well, that... And with that? Yeah. I just want to actualize it. That goes back to the 90s and then that was discontinued for 10 and 11, 12 years and then reignited, you know, in the last 10 years. I think that the difference is that Molino didn't seek permission from the Patriarch. Okay. Okay. No, and from what I heard of baby shacks was losing his mind back in the late 90s and was sending word to those Molino guys, you better be kicking up. You better be sending something up to Providence. And that if those guys wouldn't have gone to prison when they did, that could have been an issue. Yeah. That Monocchio was not thrilled with what was going on there now. And then Monocchio's not there anymore. He's replaced by Maddie, Guglia, Manny. And this is all kind of plays in to what we're talking about. Maddie, Guglia, Manny happens to be locked up with a bunch of Philly guys. He gets close to those Philly guys. So when they go back to turn the lights back on in the shop in New England, instead of having baby shacks who doesn't like them, they got Maddie, Guglia, Manny who's, you know, welcoming them with open arms. Yeah. Last thing, and this is, again, Jimmy's wheelhouse, but we want to get John's take on it. So we're going to start or end where we started. So so many things have taken over the Gambino's. It looks like based on some reporting out of New York that Lorenzo Monino, who is the reputed acting boss or street boss of the Gambino's is under the spotlight by the feds right now. They're looking at a labor racketeering case tied in with some Serbian mobsters. We talked a couple of weeks ago, me and Jimmy, we talked about Monino and how he was tied in into the Goddy guys in the late 80s. But I want to throw it over to John. He knows some stuff on Lorenzo Monino, gives us some background that I don't know if everybody has that point of reference. So tell us what you know about Lorenzo. Lorenzo started out as a regular guy. Lorenzo was not a street guy. He was working in construction and John Gambino pulled him from, I discussed with you, TG, and he was driving for him. So TG was the conciliary of the Bananos under Dromocino. I'm guessing back then he was either a soldier or a capo and he originally had Monino on record with him. And the way that he got to the Gambino's, John's telling us, and I believe everything John says is that he was poached. Poached by John. By John Gambino, he was the head of the Chariot Gambino's. Yes, and he became an associate with them and John Gambino kept them around and pulled them into some serious shit. Even as we were talking earlier, the pulled them into some murders with the Yinsarilovs in New York. And Lorenzo became very close to them and they eventually inducted him. And he moved up to the ranks. Lorenzo was a guy that, the certain guys that are liked by everyone, Lenny de Maria with the Gambino's is like that and Lorenzo was like that. I don't think there's anybody that has a bad word to say about Lorenzo. In all my dealings with him, he was always a gentleman. He's always treated me good. He always conducted himself like a gentleman and carried himself like a gentleman. And that's probably why he is where he is today. It wasn't Lorenzo related to some of those Menino guys that were caught up in the pizza connection stuff. Yeah, I know the name is the same. I don't know if he is related to them or not. I know he has the same last name as them. Yeah, because those guys were connected to the Gambino's. So, but it might've been a coincidence. Well, actually, now that I'm picking my brain here, based on my research that I've done with Frank Panessa, another friend of the program, the legendary DEA agent who worked, who made the pizza connection case. I mean, it was his, he broke the case. He got his hooks into a guy in Philadelphia named Dominic Menino, who they called Mimi, who had a string of pizza shops, which was kind of like ground zero for that heroin that was coming over from Sicily, ended at East Coast. It was going to New York. It was going to New Jersey. It was going to Philadelphia. The stuff that was going to Philadelphia was going directly to Menino. Menino was under, at that point, was underneath Cesare Benaventure and the Bananos, which might make sense of how Lorenzo Menino originally started with the Bananos. Yeah, how he started it, I don't know. But they did poach him. He was definitely poached. And they kind of cultivated him into becoming a street guy because he was not a street guy. You know, Lorenzo carries himself the way he does. He's just, he definitely is a old school mind that goes by the book. And that's a rarity for somebody who looks to follow, you know, the rules. So, what do you mean? I was just going to, yeah, thank you. Going back to the episode we did a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned with the Luccheses that one of the guys was, they put him on the shelf because he had a bad plea. And something Scott and I wondered about during our episode a few weeks ago, how in the 90s that Cherry Hill Gambino, or at least John and Joe, part of their, you know, they had a plea as well. They admitted that they were drug users. And I think they admitted that they were part of the mafia. And they seem to have gotten away with that. I'm just curious, like, I can't have to imagine John Gotti wasn't happy about that. It was no real depression, right? Money talks and you know what walks, right? So when you're talking about Cherry Hill Gambino money, they could have probably went on national TV and to say where you are and they would be on the shelf. But in all honesty, there has been in the past a lot of guys who have took pleas and admitted their role and what they were and did not get shelfed. It all depends on who's calling the shots. We could bring it back to Detroit, you know, Billy Jack along with one of the all-time legends in the Detroit underworld, even though his brother might be more nationally known, Tony Jack, but Billy Jack allocated in 98 so he could get a shorter sentence. So instead of doing 12, he could do six and came out and he wasn't punished for it. He was promoted. He became the underboss when he came out. Yeah, I mean, if there's so many, I'm sure we put our heads together and compiled the list. You'd be very surprised how many guys in that life took pleas and said who they were. But I'm sure Jimmy, I'm also sure Jimmy that you think Jack, this is, we're going a little crazy here with Jimmy and I's little inside stuff with Detroit, but you think that Jack Tocco was cool with Billy Jack aloney going into open court and saying that he was a member of La Cosa Nostra. I'm sure Jack Tocco said, don't do it, but I'm also sure Billy Jack only said, well, sorry, Jack, you know, you can go do your one year because of your fixed judge, but I'm looking at, you know, I'm 80 year, I'm 75 years old, I'm looking at 10, 15 years. If I got to say that I'm a member of the mob to only do five, I'm going to do it. Go screw yourself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like I said, I think that it all depends on who's calling the shots at that moment and who has to say so, who don't like it, who's okay with it, you know, and in Avelino's case, it wasn't taken well and he was put on a shelf. He was ultimately taking off the shelf and I'm sure that that 10% of the money had a lot to do with it. Makes sense. This was awesome. I mean, John is probably, you know, we're ranking our guests. He's in our top two or three. I know I've never had a conversation with John that I haven't come away with 10 times more knowledge I had before we spoke. We haven't had many guests on three times either. So this is like a big deal. Oh, that's right, thank you. He is the first. Yeah, he thinks so. I think so. You know, when you get to host five times, yeah. We're working on the records tonight. Rock and fellow center. We got John in our hall of honor, ring of honor. So let me just say, I want to just say something that, you know, for the people who may think that I have, you know, I'm speaking about Patty very negatively. At the time when Patty and I were staying together almost daily, it was sometimes it was every day and sometimes, you know, every couple of days we were together a lot. I had nothing but respect for him. I liked Patty, we got along, we spoke all the time. We kind of had the same views on a lot of the people that were doing wrong inside of our family. And, you know, naturally, if everything took place I'm no longer going to speak, you know, good about him. So that's why I say the things that I do. But when we were together and I considered him a dear friend of mine, you know, I did get along with him good. You know, when I happened to like him at that time. Jimmy, you got anything, any closing remarks? No, I was just going to say, we definitely appreciate your time, John. And we want to remind our audience to please subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to our podcast. Please follow us on social media. And John, please let our audience know how to find, you know, your podcast and video shows and blog and what have you. Yeah, I'm on YouTube, it's Sitdown News and the blog is on sitdownnews.com. And like Scott, it's also a paid subscription now. Scott, I wish you the best of luck. And I think that you're going to do very well. I blog, Scott's more professional than I am. And he has a very, very good article site, very awesome. This doesn't have to be a shine session, but I'm not just saying this, you know, before I even met John, it was not everybody can write. And definitely not everybody that lived the life of an organized crime, you know, are, you know, poet laureates, but John is an excellent writer. You're not getting some Neanderthal that's trying to string us. I mean, John's, the way he writes is very concise and he's a very good storyteller. He's able to tell layered stories without it getting too confusing. So I was impressed from the first time I read John that for someone coming from his background that he was such an amazing storyteller. I could tell that there was no ghost writing there. No. So you're getting a lot of meat on that bone with what you're seeing on YouTube and then what you read from him. It's a work in progress. And I think that anyone with that has a writer's background or any editors out there, no, there was definitely no ghost writers because I make a lot of mistakes. And, you know, I learn as I go and as you write more and more and more, you become a little better at it. You know, I do my best. Before I met John, I remember someone saying to me like, I'm trying to think who said this to me. They said, yeah. Yeah, I was just kidding. And someone said, he writes too well. That's gotta be the FBI writing that. Yeah, they said it was the FBI. Meanwhile, they said it was the FBI. And then they turned around and says that the FBI didn't like that I was writing it and wanted to shut me down. I think they're a little confused. And the last thing I was wearing this hat on the podcast today, we're gonna start trying to give you some gear to wear. So let me know if you like this hat. It'll hit it in the comments. If you guys are down with them, that will be something that I think by spring, summertime, we're gonna be having a part of this show where you can go and buy, you know, t-shirts, hoodies, hats and whatnot with some various designs. So let us know if you like it and... For the record, I was the first one to say I like that. Yes, John was a fan from the second he saw it. And I want to shout out to my better half, Christy, for starting to design it. We're still working on it. This isn't in stone, but this is kind of where we're headed, I think, in terms of a logo. I like it. And I wanna say that I don't... People may not believe this. I do not watch a lot of mob stuff on YouTube. I don't need it. I don't, you know what I mean? Because you're doing this. There's a lot involved in a lot of time in putting out this content. But I can tell you that I'm definitely a fan. I do watch your show. So that's- Thank you, John. It means a lot. Because I'm telling you, the John Penises of the world, when you meet a lot of the guys that come out of this machine that is the mob, not all of them, even if they're good people at heart in the context of that world, not all of them have their heads screwed on straight afterwards because you come out of that, it's a real ringer. So it's to see John as composed and focused and really, I think you're living your best life in terms of what someone can hope for on the other side of it. And you seem like you've really got a... The way that you're approaching it and the way that you handle it, it seems like this is kind of the blueprint for transitioning, I guess we use that word now, transitioning from a crazy, living a life like a movie script to being a regular civilian, paying your taxes. The back of your wall says it, and that's what I am. I'm definitely blessed and I take day by day and it's a more peaceful life. So that's why. And not getting involved, I mean, and again, not to go too far off subject, but he ain't one of these guys that you can go jump on YouTube and find a million different videos, throwing shade back and forth. And we all try to stay away from that. And again, to John as I think the poster boy for what you should do if you're trying to leverage your best life and how you wanna do it, how you wanna do it in a classy way, do it in a way where people can easily consume it and digest it. I think that John's really paving the way for that. Thank you, I appreciate it. So Jimmy, this is it. Well, Ben, thank you for the producing. John, thank you for joining us. And I'm sure we'll have John back on at some point in the near future. And for Jimmy and for Ben and for John, I'm Scott Bernstein, OG Podcast.