 As this hearing is fully virtual we must address a few housekeeping matters. For today's meeting the chair or staff designated by the chair may mute participants microphones when they are not under recognition for the purposes of eliminating inadvertent background noise. Members are responsible for muting and unmuting themselves. If I notice that you have not unmuted yourself I will ask you if you would like the staff to unmute you. If you indicate approval by nodding staff will unmute your microphone. I remind all members of witnesses that the five-minute clock still applies. If there is a technology issue we will move to the next member until the issue is resolved and you will retain the balance of your time. You will notice a clock on the bottom of your screen or whatever device you are you're using that will show how much time is remaining. At one minute remaining the clock will turn to yellow. When your time has expired the clock will turn red and I will begin to recognize the next member. In terms of the speaking order we will follow the order set forth in the house rules beginning with the chair and ranking member then members present at the time the hearing is called to order will be recognized in order of seniority alternating between majority and minority and finally members not present at the time the hearing is called to order. Finally house rules require me to remind you that we have set up an email address to which members can send anything they wish to submit in writing in any of our hearings and mark or markups. That email address has been provided in advance to your staff. Today we welcome three panels to testify on the conditions and oversight of the military housing privatization initiative or MHPI. The first panel will feature two residents telling their personal stories and challenges that they and their families faced while living in privatized housing. They will be joined by a privatized housing family advocate who will be able to speak broadly about the issues families faced in privatized housing across all services and housing providers. The second panel will include the deputy assistant secretary of defense for housing Ms. Pat Coray and the director of defense capabilities and management at the government accountability office or GAO Ms. Elizabeth Field. These witnesses will be able to explain the oversight and history of privatized housing the partnerships between the providers and the government the steps being taken to address systemic housing issues and the future of housing resiliency. The third panel will be representatives from five of the largest private housing companies, Balfour Beatty Communities, Corvius Military Living, Hunt Military Communities, Lend Lease Communities and Liberty Military Housing. We expect this panel to explain current challenges privatized housing faces, past and current legal issues, steps being taken to improve service and the impact of the recently implemented tenant bill of rights. As we all now know beginning in August of 2018 Reuters began publishing a series of articles chronicling health and safety issues experienced by military families living in deplorable privatized military family housing conditions. Many of us traveled to some of these privatized family settings and were able to actually do walkthroughs and see exactly the conditions that families were living in. Not to mention that these companies have been engaged in some cases in fraudulent activities being conducted by some providers. These articles prompted a groundswell of similar stories from diverse families of all services, ranks, pay grades and geographic locations. It became quickly apparent that these issues were systemic service members and their families experienced mold exposure, rodent infestation, water leaks, smells, broken appliances, rude and dismissive housing management and adding insult to injury there was ineffective oversight of the program by the services. The Department of Defense and the housing providers they had entrusted to take care of our service members and their families had gravely failed. The services reported that a lack of visibility on work order processing had contributed to the overall lack of oversight. In addition the system incentivized work order completion without respect to the quality of maintenance performed which led to poor workmanship and unqualified personnel performing the work. Further an overemphasis on occupancy rates incentivized the quick turnover of homes which in turn can lead to a lack of preventative maintenance and repairs between tenants. The system was broken. Those who were bravely serving our nation and their families were being neglected ignored and taken advantage of. Since then Congress and the Department of Defense have taken key steps to remedy the crisis and write the ship. Congress passed legislation as part of the 2020 National Defense Authorization Act that included a tenant bill of rights which would ensure all service members and their families were given quality housing, responsive customer service and the right to challenge the system for wrongdoing without the threat of retaliation. In February 2020 the Department of Defense announced that the Defense Secretary and the Uniform Service Secretaries signed the tenant bill of rights implementing 15 of the 18 tenant rights. And finally on August 1st 2021 the Department signed the updated bill of rights implementing all 18 rights. I was glad to see that all privatized housing partners testifying today implemented these 18 essential rights for our service members and their families. And we had a at the beginning of this process we had a very comprehensive oversight hearing like we are doing today to make sure that we could hear from affected families make sure that we could hear from the government the government agencies responsible for oversight and and also to to hear from the companies. And there is clearly still much to be done as we've seen by the continued stream of negative stories making their way to the press which is part of the reason for calling this hearing today because we want to make sure particularly because we're responsible for the quality of life of these military families that we make sure that we are conducting the oversight to be certain that the tenant bill of rights all 18 of them are implemented and that we don't have a regression when it comes to progress. And that includes not only persistent issues with inadequate housing conditions and quality of service but also the troubling shameful and frankly infuriating revelations of illegal incentive fee fraud committed by multiple providers. I look forward to hearing some explanations today from those privatized housing providers and how they are making systemic changes in the operations and oversight of their housing portfolio. And I know my colleagues join me in expecting full transparency. This is an important hearing in which we will discuss the state of military privatized housing the progress made over the last few years the ongoing challenges faced by our military families and the crucial steps we must take moving forward. I do want to thank all of the witnesses for attending today and my colleagues for participating in what will be a longer than normal hearing and I'm looking forward to an informative candid conversation. At this time I'd like to yield to my ranking member who's been really a fierce advocate for military families particularly given that he represents so many of them for his opening statement. Judge. Good morning. Thank you Madam Chairman. You know I'm pleased we're kicking this off these hearings because it's great to get to work on the 23 budget requests. We all know this state inadequate military housing is key to readiness. I want our soldiers and sailors, airmen, Marines, guardians, all of those have good housing, sufficient air, so that they don't have the worries of what's going on with their families when they're deployed. Nothing can be worse. Activity and deployment are tough enough without worrying about your family back home. I'm disappointed we can continue to hear these stories about problems and privatize housing. When I came on this committee, Chad Edwards was the chair and he was one of my colleagues from back in Texas and everybody was so proud of the new housing program and it's a crying shame that we're dealing with these foundations with something we were so proud of less than 15 years ago. So something's wrong, very badly wrong. Believe me, I know what mold investigation is because the first term I ran for Congress, I had in my house and I lived in my garage with my beautiful wife and for nine months while I was campaigning. So you can't pull the wool over my eyes. I know what it is. I'm looking forward to finding out about this. I want to hear about what's going on with this. I'm looking forward to sharing. Thank you. Thank you so much, Judge. Thank you for being the partner that you've been right through and also for really providing the committee and me with the legislative history about this. It's been important and helpful. So now we will welcome our first panel, Private Cody Calderon, Ms. Nikki Wiley and Ms. Rachel Christian. This panel includes a service member, Private Calderon and a military spouse, Ms. Nikki Wiley, who are currently residents in military family housing. They will describe the conditions that they have encountered, the difficulties they face in persuading officials to address serious maintenance issues, and the problems with perceiving adequate remediation. They are joined by a military housing family advocate, Ms. Rachel Christian, who can testify about the experiences and treatment of service members across all services and housing providers. We'll start with Private Calderon, then Ms. Wiley and finally Ms. Christian. In light of the many witnesses that we have today and the multiple panels, I'd ask that everyone keep their opening statements to three minutes. We certainly have a lot of ground to cover today. Private Calderon, your full written testimony will be included in the record and you are recognized for three minutes to summarize your opening statement. Thank you so much, Madam Chairman. I really appreciate that. I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak today and the story I'll share is not really unique and while I'm going to fill it with the specifics to me, it's not specific to me. I think of a hopeless, the voiceless, the sick while I'm speaking to you now, those that are willing to literally sacrifice all and the families who support them. I think about the heroism it takes to not sit idly by for the worst thing a human can do is turn a blind eye to injustice. That's how I feel. My name is Cody Calderon. I'm a husband. I'm a soldier. Yesterday was the one-year anniversary of my first day in the Army and today I gather the courage given to me by my wife, my peers, my leaders to share my family's experience with privatized housing in the military. I was placed in Corvius Housing on August 12th, 2001. That was 11 days after the revised military privatized housing initiative, Tenants Bill of Rights, was placed into effect. My wife, Alyssa, immediately knew something was wrong with the home. We couldn't pinpoint it. We chalked it up to environmental allergens or just the shock of a new lifestyle. Now, being 32, I'm afforded a few advantages over your typical private first class. Firstly, I've dealt with these problems in the civilian sector. I've battled landlords. I've fought for housing. I have the confidence and conviction to take this head on. I'm not afraid to fight for right for what's right regardless of the consequences like I feel other service members may be, but a great leader told me to always choose the hard right over the easy left and I lived by that. So here are the hard facts. There's mold in my home. No standard was followed to ensure safe remediation. The Army agrees to follow installation management command income standards and they accept the Institute of Inspection Cleaning and Restoration Certification. That's the IICRC as the guideline for proper maintenance. I need to stress the implementation of the Tenants Bill of Rights. It's not just a list of suggestions. They're a standard that's required to guarantee the health safety and rights of the individual. And that's what we're fighting for here. The rights of the individuals that put in a maintenance request, they have the work performed that did not follow IICRC standard. They're told that home is safe to live in and then they subsequently get sick because of negligence. Corvius turns the unit over to the next soldier's family and this just happens in perpetuity. Now, both of the homes that we have been offered since this issue with our original home, they've been riddled with mold and maintenance issues. I've submitted dispute resolution paperwork, requested my schedule for displacement per diem. I've spoken with the military housing office, asked for rightfully owed timelines. I've gotten nothing. I haven't had any correspondence in seven days. My wife and I have gone from hotel to hotel over the past month. We find ourselves now as I sit here right now in an Airbnb 30 minutes from base and I have to commute three or four times a day with $4 a gallon gas prices, all of these expenses coming out of my pocket because no one's taking accountability. And this is moral hazard as it's worst in my opinion. In the army, if a soldier fails to meet or exceed an expectation, they're held accountable. But if a housing company fails, who does the accountability fall on? And I feel like for too long, privatized housing companies have operated with the sense of impunity, just leaving countless families in the wake of their negligence. Each citizen puts their faith in us to protect the standards of this country. But what happens when the standard to foundation that supports those protectors is built on these mold and sewage and lead and pest issues? If we're as strong as our weakest and as fast as our slowest, how ready are we really if we're as healthy as our sickest? The army's mission is to fight and win the nation's wars. What do you do when we're fighting to win the war on safe and habitable housing in our own nation? Thank you for the time. Thank you so much. Thank you. Next, I appreciate it. Private Calderon will look forward to engaging in some Q and A with you. Ms. Wiley, your fill written testimony will be included in the record and you are recognized for three minutes to summarize your opening statement. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Good morning esteemed committee, subcommittee members. I'm Nikki Wiley, wife and partner of Marine Corps Master Sergeant Trevor Wiley for 12 of the 18 years he served on active duty. In November of 2018, after four months, living between Airbnbs while on the housing waitlist, we accepted a house in the Shadow Mountain community in 29 Palms, California. The disclosures we had to sign upon acceptance, including lead paint, asbestos, and other potential hazards were alarming, but at this point we needed stability for our family. As soon as we moved in, our previously healthy children began experiencing breathing difficulties, skin rashes, and allergy-like symptoms. Just two months into living in our home, we experienced our first water intrusion incident requiring baseboard removal in an industrial blower, which caused my then one-year-old to exhibit symptoms almost constantly. Over the following year, we repeatedly voiced our concerns to LMH maintenance staff and their maintenance manager over the presence of mold, the unsafe nature of the air we were breathing, and the impact on our children's deteriorating health. By this time, my one-year-old had recurring pneumonia and opacities on his lungs. Their only consolations were to repeatedly use their moisture meter and put it in my wall and tell me that at this given moment in time, in this particular area, their ratings weren't high, there couldn't possibly be mold present in my home, or they would offer band-aid fixes like caulking over visible mold. Finally, a turning point came in December of 2019 when we had a gas leak. I detected it, I evacuated my family, and I notified Lincoln. Their maintenance worker came in and told me all clear there was no gas leak. By this point, I trusted my judgment, my intuition over Lincoln's definition of safety, and I called in the base fire department who determined we did in fact have a gas leak that could have had lethal ramifications. Using this blatant disregard for our safety, as well as some other asbestos related issues in the community, I contacted an LMH executive who passed my concern onto their vice president. The VP was finally set the gears in motion to finally get my home tested for mold. However, a Lincoln worker and maintenance manager came out for a pre-inspection wherein they cleaned my vents and wiped away visible evidence of mold prior to the real inspection. The next week, a contracted company inspected my home and acknowledged spots of water intrusion and mold verbally to me, but later refused to acknowledge the presence of mold and informal reports. Upon my insistence, they did contain the impacted areas, which included all three bathrooms, my HVAC unit, my laundry room, and an exterior wall of my home. However, only after excessive back and forth, did LMH finally change out my HVAC coils and duct work. We were out of our home for a total of 32 days, during which time LMH continued to collect RBAH as we were shuffled between hotels before eventually being placed in junior enlisted off-base housing. We did receive a $75 per DM check for the days we were displaced, but not until we were back in our home. Thus, it could have been a great financial burden for a family without monetary reserves. I would like to unequivocally express concern that private housing companies are utilizing contractors and subcontractors whose revenue is generated almost entirely by the housing companies, and who are therefore acting as a mouthpiece for the housing company's interests with a fear of losing a large amount of their revenue if they disagree or even abide by proper protocols. I witnessed this both first and secondhand throughout this process. Additionally, throughout our housing issues, Lincoln repeatedly attempted to discredit my husband with his relationship with his command. I would ask that moving forward, no other family should suffer a detriment to the service member-command relationship, merely because they're speaking out about their housing issues. Families should not have to choose between living on base and keeping their families safe. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much, Ms. Wiley. And last but not least, Ms. Christian, your fulfillment and testimony will be included in the record. You're recognized for three minutes to summarize your opening statement. Chairwoman Wasserman-Schultz, Ranking Member Carter, and Distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, the Armed Forces Housing Advocates are proud to represent families living in privatized military housing across the nation. Still, we are dispirited that an organization such as ours is necessary to exist. My name is Rachel Christian, and I am co-founder of the Armed Forces Housing Advocates along with Sarah Klein, Kate Needham, and Noel Potzel. We believe that readiness starts with a safe home. The lives, health, and safety of our military families are at risk daily, and even more egregious are the continued disability rights violations that they face. Today we see environmental hazards and improper repairs being completed, maintenance staff performing plumbing and electrical work without training or proper certifications. At Fort Drum, a family experienced a natural gas leak in their home for six months. When the maintenance director was asked about his team's qualifications at the site, he replied that they had none and that none were required. Many reasonable accommodations for families with disabilities are being denied or ignored. The housing partner often requests unreasonable amounts of information and puts layers of red tape in place for even the most minor requests. Requests for window fall prevention devices are denied or installed with extraordinary costs. Since 2019, seven children at Naval Base San Diego have fallen from windows and suffered traumatic brain injuries. Sewage leaks are common occurrence in military housing. Housing partners will refuse to replace carpets that have been soaked in raw sewage and will pump sewage into yards where children play. Faulty construction at Fort Leonard Wood left a military spouse with a traumatic brain injury just within this past year and yet the company responsible is refusing to reply to the request for assistance. These examples are not unique and only a portion of the problem. Under the Tenants Bill of Rights, an electronic work order system was implemented. It is clear that there are mass discrepancies between the documentation in that system and the work orders being placed by residents. The Tenants Bill of Rights has also provided dispute resolution to some military housing tenants. However, most families are being turned away and denied access to the dispute process for arbitrary reasons. The discretionary fashion of this so-called right leads to more frustration and families believing that they have no recourse. Rights are not rights if the families cannot access or utilize them. Military families should not have to turn to social media to be heard. Families deserve an outlet that they can count on when local housing management systems fail. HR 7144 would create a public feedback tool for military families which Congress can use to identify issues and hold housing companies accountable proactively. Readiness starts with a safe home and we are not ready. Thank you. Thank you very much to all of you for your opening remarks and for your participation today. We'll proceed in the standard five-minute rounds recognizing members in order of seniority as they joined at the beginning of the hearing, alternating between majority and minority, and please be mindful of your time and allow the witnesses time to answer within your five-minute turn. I'll begin by just thanking all three of you for being here today. Your experiences whether they're living in privatized housing personally or working with families that live in privatized housing are really going to help the subcommittee understand the issues that have plagued our service members and their families and that continue to do so. I do want to ask Private Calderon and Ms. Wiley if you have anything to add that was not able to be included in your opening statement in terms of the housing and the challenges that you faced when you were trying to report those issues to your service or to the private housing companies and really what I would be interested in knowing is has this gotten any better? I realize that all 18 tenant bill of rights elements weren't all implemented until last August so that's not that long a time frame but have you noticed any improvement? So are there any additional housing challenges both in terms of the problems plaguing your own home and the response time and response quality from your service or the private housing company? We'll start with Private Calderon. Thank you Madam Chair. Urgency there has I have felt like there's been no sense of urgency and this has been going on for well over a month. It's disheartening because I also feel like my wife doesn't have a voice in any of this and she's dealing with most of this while I'm trying to do my job at work. They won't listen to her. It would be really amazing if we were allowed that sort of separation where our spouses could handle some of these issues but we've been shut down at every turn and I'm also tired of not getting specific at least timelines for what's going on. They're just leaving me in the dark. The company is leaving you in the dark? Yes. And how was your services response responsiveness? What we did in I think the last fiscal year it really wasn't an oversight layer at DOD and we provided funding to ensure that they could put in a layer of oversight at the service level and then I know what they initially did was they put in your base level oversight. Have you noticed a change since either of those oversight measures were taken? I don't know if I'm entirely qualified to answer that seeing as the short amount of time that I've been in the service so honestly I would not be able to accurately answer that. Okay that's fair. Ms. Wiley? Sure we've been in it definitely for long enough so thankfully a lot of our major concerns were abated. I will say in the I kind of avoid Lincoln primarily right now in terms of calling I'm sorry Liberty they're now Liberty. I don't call them in that regularly if I can help it but in the couple of instances where I have had them in I've had a couple of you know minor things like well they didn't like not following up with a water intrusion issue we had on December 25th I mean it was on Christmas but they came into my home on that day and then there was never any follow-up they and in the work order it shows that it was the follow-up was cancelled didn't cancel it so I also say things like I'm supposed to be having a HEPA filter up replaced monthly that was a part of the conditions I guess I mean re-entering my home when we did and that has not happened so I won't say that things are any better. Those are minor concerns but I'm assuming that if I'm seeing minor things on a house that was you know kind of a big priority to them for a while that others aren't probably seeing much the same. And from both of you have you heard I assume you have heard from fellow service members with similar issues in regard to reporting housing deficiencies or requesting remediation or responsiveness from your own service in order to your own services oversight of the housing companies. At Fort Polk yes on a daily basis. So these are not unique you're not alone. Not at all in any way shape or form. Well gosh private holder on since you've only been here a year and we've engaged in passage of the Tenant Bill of Rights and implementation of it it's disturbing that you wouldn't have at least seen some notice at least if not noticed some improvement. What you're describing seems identical to what we heard in the original hearing that we had and Ms. Wiley you've been around a while. It doesn't sound any different for your family either. That's disturbing. Okay and then Ms. Christian I just have a quick question I want to get in. Could you tell us about the work that your organization does and the resources that you provide and can you give us a broad overview of the issues you've seen across the board and lack of responsiveness. Sure so our organization is a grassroots nonprofit that since May has assisted over 1300 military families across the country spreading a variety of issues from minor you know incidences with housing all the way up to assisting families filing federal Fair Housing Act complaints seeking out their representatives. But our main purpose is to help families work within the current system that they're provided. So we have a step process that teaches families how to go to their chain of command how to send emails out. Some spouses are alone and have never sent a professional email. So we assist them in that whole process and it's it's advocacy in teaching them how to advocate for themselves because we know this issue is going to be a common one that they're going to occur throughout their their time in the service. So we teach them so that maybe next time if they have an issue they're able to proactively do it for themselves and I will say we do get a lot of issues handled that way but we do still see problems such that PFC Calderon sees every day throughout our work. Thank you my time's expired and gosh I have a lot more questions but you know we'll we'll just submit those to you and if you can answer them for the record because I really do want to get as broad a sense from you all the ones experiencing all these challenges as as possible for for the members. Judge Carter you're recognized for five minutes. The two witnesses and the doggy. The residents. How old are those residents? Do you have any idea? I believe I believe the Shadow Mountain community was I know was during the 1970s I'm not certain of the exact year. Okay PFC Calderon. I know that my home was built in 1988 but most of the other homes in my neighborhood are either from 1982 or 1979 I believe. The truth is we need to do new construction but we're having trouble with new construction too so that's another issue. Do you know whether or not well you probably wouldn't but these things were built. There was a built-in maintenance part of money provided to the builders at the time they signed the contract. Do you know what I mean? No sir. I know at the time that our homes were built they were obviously not under the they didn't fall under the current system. They were they were military owned so I couldn't just couldn't speak to that either. Okay well that's the next battle. Let me tell you you have my sympathy because if you hear that how bad I talk how much I cough there's a whole lot to do to a mold infection back in 2002 in my house and I've never quite gotten over it so God bless you. Are you back? Thank you judge. Thank you. Okay Mr. Case you're recognized for five minutes of questions. Thank you Madam Chair. In all honesty this is just a really frustrating hearing. I'm in my fourth year on this committee and the very first hearing when I joined the committee in 2019 was on privatized housing and I have the distinct sense that we we just are still not on track in terms of where we're trying to get to and so for me I'm trying to understand exactly what the situation is where the problem is right now and see if we can somehow go back and get our fingers on it. I mean we've moved on tenants bill of rights we've moved on greater requirement of military engagement we've tried to move on on access to information and complaints we've tried to you know move on on required timetables for for repairs and and yet we have this hearing and so that's just deeply frustrating and and I apologize to you for for the fact that we that you're still in this situation. I guess I'd like to understand what I'm trying to understand is how widespread is the problem still we have 78 some odd privatized housing communities throughout our country but private you've I think if I understand your your testimony correctly you've lived in one of those over one year so obviously you're experiencing issues there. Ms. Wiley you've lived in four is that right I think I think I read your resume and it said you've been in six different places but two of them your own home is that right so have you been in four communities sorry you're muted you're muted. Any technical difficulties um no I've actually only lived in two in two military communities and as it would happen they've actually both been aboard 29 palms at two different times who were stationed out here. Okay okay I understand that and then and and Ms. Christian you obviously are advocating across the board so here's the general question are we still talking about a systematic problem across the system in your view or are we talking about fairly isolated or at least narrowing communities that are still highly problematic or for that matter companies versus you know a broader kind of indictment of the entire system that's what I'm trying to get to because you know I have many of those communities in Hawaii we have tens of thousands of military families of living in privatized communities in Hawaii and and there are issues but they don't they don't seem to at least arise to the same level of kind of systematic as is true in elsewhere in other parts of the country so that's what I'm trying to trying to just make sense of it. So let me just start Ms. Private Keller on you you said you you speak for many other people and I'm sure you do what's your sense of it are we still dealing with with a with a systematic issue here where we've just got to go back to the beginning and talk about much broader solutions are we are we on the right track and narrowing in on solutions or what's your assessment? I think as a whole we're on the right track I think the most difficult part about this is people become stuck in their ways there are people that work for these companies that have been there for decades longer even so it's difficult to teach the dog-nutrics sort of thing they're used to the operating in this way and now we're implementing these new standards and there's like well I don't want to have to actually do my job now I do think it is it does sort of need to be torn down I think we need people that are advocates for health and safety and not profit I think we need to prioritize that generally and very specifically and yes I do speak with people quite often I just spoke with a woman in my unit the other day who gave birth three months two months premature the child has health issues was working all the way up through her pregnancy conceived and gave birth and still lives in that same home says that her ceiling is bubbling down there's mold the floor is creaky it's just it's it's so upsetting to me that it's it's blatant disregard entirely understood and and and I guess I'm just trying to focus in on how widespread is that situation how widespread is that sentiment still so miss christian and in the time I have remaining what's your assessment across the entire system the 68 somewhat communities is it still systematic or is this specific to companies you know some cultures of some companies as the private just said some companies have have a harder time changing than other companies or or is this specific to older what's your answer it's absolutely systemic still and I will tell you that the issue is not necessarily with the individuals on the installation levels but rather the impact that they're truly able to have on the installation we now have a tenants bill of rights where a government housing office is dictating whether or not a family has access to dispute resolution they now have individuals coming in and checking their homes and qualifying them as being safe or not but in between turnovers which hypothetically is a great idea and something that I would love to see if it was implemented in a way with someone who is certified we just had a recent inspection go through and an army family had two gas leaks missed in their homes by the government housing office and employee and it's because they're not certified or trained in this so I do believe that there is a missing piece there that if implemented would change this okay thank you I'm out of time I yield back thank you thank you mr case and what one of the frustrating things about this christians response just now is that part of the problem was that the companies were sending in unqualified people just to get through the ticket the tickets that have been submitted rather than actually send somebody in who knows what they're doing I mean how do you not send in a specialist who knows how to handle a gas leak I just I feel like I'm stuck in 2019 and that there's you know recognizing that the the bill of rights implementation you know is less than a year year in but I guess we'll ask the our next our next panel and turn away after that those questions forgive me mr valadeo you recognize for five minutes of questions and also I know I have one other question for this panel so if anyone has a second round question just just let me know all right well thank you madam chair I appreciate the opportunity and I really do appreciate you getting this hearing together I think this is a very important topic I've personally gone out to some of the housing in my district at the naval air station a little more we've had some issues ourselves trying to work with some of these facilities improving houses building new houses I mean the problem is just across the board and it truly is a fresh anything so mr calderon miss wiley miss christian thank you for joining us today and sharing your stories I really do appreciate it mr calderon I sincerely hope that your immediate housing concerns are addressed as quickly as possible and I think we all need to I mean hold these guys to a higher standard but my question is to miss christian the tenants bill of rights which we talked about a little bit here we're implemented two years ago in your testimony you expressed the concern and I know that the chairwoman just mentioned it as well lack of training the lack of qualified people which we're seeing across the country in all different segments what do we need to do better when it comes to training these advocates what would you say are the most important topics we really need to hit on training needs to be specialized to to what they're looking at right if you are in north carolina and you are a north carolina certified home inspector that should be the type of person you're seeking out to come and clear these houses um these are going to be the types of people that we want in these houses and ensuring that the safety is is going on um tenants bill of rights did allow for a industry standard of treatment in one of the rights but there's actually no clear definition of industry standard unless you dig deep down into state law and because of the lack of training across the board some of our installation commanders still don't realize that state laws need to be followed on the installations with the government housing office and that's on the burden of the resident to prove to the installation commanders to their government housing employees and then also to the local level privatized housing partners so the training really needs to be specific to home inspections I don't believe that's an outlandish request and it sounds sort of simple right you would think that the person coming in would be certified um say that you were checking the electrical in a home georgia fort steward um has a lot of electrical issues on their installation and they have non electricians coming in and certifying um fire hazards that have caused fires um throughout the electrical wiring even even though an electrician has said it was not accurate um so things like that really need to be put in place and I do think the system that you have implemented with the tenants bill rights could work if we went that route okay so I mean the training making sure these people are qualified have a background in it I mean as far as us getting the information out obviously we've worked with some constituents of our own and just making sure that we go through the list of check marks all right did you uh did you reach out to this person on your base did you reach out to this person within the company that is supposed to be harvesting we always try to make sure they're doing those things um but if they're sending people aren't qualifying obviously that's a huge problem for us so uh obviously that's one we need to focus on again I appreciate all the testimony I don't have any more questions for this specific panel Madam Chair so I'll just yield back the rest of my time so thank you again for your time thank you so much Mr. Valadale next up is Ms. Lee you're recognized for five minutes I I have no questions for this panel thank you okay thank you so much then uh Mr Bishop are you with us all right um seeing that Mr Bishop is not here at the moment we'll go to Mr. Rutherford you're recognized for five minutes of questions thank you Madam Chair and I want to thank the panelists for uh being here this morning and sharing and and I want to follow up and concur with the remarks by my my good friend from Hawaii Mr. Case um but I apologize uh the the pictures that I saw uh that you all have provided is reprehensible that no one should um live in a situation like that uh the black mold just horrible conditions and and so Ms. Christian if I could ask you um you know when you were describing the advocacy groups role about training the individual members to deal with their leadership on base um is is should we maybe put more control or or or greater responsibility on the advocacy group to not only train um individuals who are living in these conditions how to how to advocate for themselves but should we have some some role that the advocates could play in engaging uh leadership that is not getting these things done on time I I know out of the recommendations he came through I I think only eight or ten have been uh actually implemented so far in the in the land lease lease people are I I guess delaying the rest until they can renegotiate um so should should we look possibly at putting more power into the hands of the advocates I I honestly do not think so um I think that this is such a um in the in the civilian world this would be a simple problem right you have a problem with your landlord you request a fix and if not you go to the next which would be either your your county or your state um I think that the the onus really needs to be on that government housing office to be relaying the information correctly up through their chain to the installation level and as well on the privatized housing partner they need to see some type of um recourse taken against their actions which is has only so far been done in the public eye this hearing is a great way to do that um show that they you know this is a problem but there's not been um on installation level any type of of immediate recourse for employees or for government housing employees that are denying families their rights so I I don't think that um adding another layer is going to make it any better um simply because we don't have the initial base for a structure to work that well I'm not suggesting that we add another layer I'm suggesting that we just put more tools in your toolbox um that so let let me ask this because I can tell you I I have three military installations in my district our housing uh at uh naval station uh Mayport NAS jack we don't seem to have these problems our ours are going pretty well actually uh according to our tenants so when when I when I see these photographs that were provided to us and we ought to we we ought to broadcast those somewhere um but in addition to that I hear you testify that nine children have fallen out of windows um first of all that that was in San Diego can you tell me what company that is yes that's Liberty um and that is just in the past four years at one installation DOD is supposed to be sending the information on the number of children falling from military housing units um to you all um we've been trying to get that information because we do know that the numbers being reported are extremely low in comparison to the actual numbers of children falling from windows so now you may not have this information but do you know how they're falling out I mean that that seems like an inordinate number of children to me to be falling out windows are they are they windows that go sealing the floor and they're open because the air conditioning is not working or so there's several reasons um but a lot of them occur because the windows stills are low on the second story um Evan's law is a law that was put into place after Evan English passed away in Hawaii falling from a window unit um and that is really the case um military families are moving frequently children aren't used to the environments they're in um they have simple things like insect screens instead of I remember when I you know when you're younger if you're in an older house you could push on those screens on those windows and nothing would happen um they're put in by duct tape or or held in incorrectly so um just just the requirement to just have um if if requested to put in an actual window guard um would be a wonderful addition and would um save the lives of children honestly um in military housing we recently had a resident ask for window guards and the response was there's a sticker on the window that says window fall risk a sticker is not going to save the life of a child absolutely madam chair I see my time has run out um but I want to thank you for this panel and uh we really need to continue to push on this issue and thank you madam chair for for doing it you're welcome yeah something's something's not working that's what this that's what this hearing is is trying to get to the bottom of thank you mr. Rutherford okay um I don't I don't see um mr. Bishop uh okay so mr. Gonzalez you recognize for your five minutes questions thank you madam chair and I really appreciate you holding this hearing I think uh I appreciate that the testimony from from the panel and what you'll find is this committee is uh committed to uh to solving this issue and it's been an issue for far too long and I spent 20 years in the navy so when we talk about uh when we talk about housing I've lived it uh my friends have lived it my loved ones have lived it and one of things that comes to mind is every service member has a housing story everyone uh I remember one one of my stories was uh we uh we had just had a new baby Daniel and uh I was living in housing and we couldn't use our living room because it was as if we were sitting outside there was no insulation it's really cold we're in Maryland at the time but there's always something and I think it's gotten to the point to where uh that's become the standard and it should not be that way you know here we have uh service members deployed all over the the United States and I would argue if they're worried about what's happening at home they're not focused on the job that they have to do so it absolutely uh is connected to red to readiness you know my questions I have a couple questions and I'd love to hear some comments my first question is for Ms. Christensen do you have any feedback from families on using the interactive customer evaluation portal to provide comments or complaints regarding their housing so anytime we've actually had residents try to put um anything into a portal that is run by the company um we've had instances where the information's being changed on the back end so I'll give you an example a family put in and said they had a lead based paint hazard that needed um an inspection and the company repeatedly removed the words lead based paint from the terminology even after multiple emails to both the housing company and the housing office to get those words back in there um they refuse to do so so um situations like that are not uncommon that's just one example that I'm I'm allowed um per that resident to speak about but this is happening across the board where those those items are not being um tracked properly yeah now thank you for that what what I hear from not only my constituents I have several bases in the district for Fort Bliss uh Blackland Air Force Base Laughlin Air Force Base not only from my constituents but also from my former shipmates and people I've served with all over the country uh essentially the the theme is one thing is they don't feel as if they have a voice they feel as if they are constantly kind of shunned or pushed to the side and regardless of their pay grade regardless of their a pfc and their their their new to service or if they're you know senior of senior folks they've all kind of been pushed to the side I think that's one thing maybe we can work on uh I would love to work with with your organization to try to come up with maybe some some real time solutions when somebody picks up the phone and says hey I need this that they get a real time uh response uh miss miss Wiley I have a question for you and the question is you know we've got several other panels after this you know uh the the secretary of of defense that's in charge of housing and then of course the the leadership of these different private uh housing organizations themselves if you were in my shoes what would you ask them one pardon me one question I would definitely want answered um would be what what portion of the contractors that they utilize work almost exclusively for the housing companies um I ask that because I'm finding a lot of cases both my with my our personal and other um residents in my neighborhood with issues um we're finding that the the results that would they get from outside when outside testing occurs vice when some of these contracted companies that are to go to companies um we're finding that those are not necessarily aligning and that almost across the board um the contractors that are their go to contractors that have the bulk of their revenue from the housing companies will align their interests with the housing companies and and that leads to some some false reports um some not following proper protocol um things of that nature and I saw that personally throughout our process for sure great and and uh I'll ask one line one final question before my time is up and it's for uh PFC Calderon look you look sharp man you look sharp in uniform clearly you're just starting your career off I'm really excited for you how does the the quality of of of uh military housing impact your decision on if you're going to stay uh if you're going to stay in service or if you're going to punch out that's a tremendous impact it has unfortunately really pushed me away because I I got an eviction during COVID and I still have some utility bills on my credit and my wife has some debt so we really can't rent we even went to go look at off base housing and I feel like the issue with where we are especially in Fort Polk is that they kind of know they have a they have a corner of the market that really lets them kind of do what they want because the options are so limited there's one Airbnb in this area it's they're really not a lot of options so for me it kind of makes me feel do I want to take this gamble again which is really unfortunate because as I said I'm 32 I've lived a life I've done a lot of things I've started companies I've failed I've tried again I really wanted to do 20 years I don't think I could do 20 years of this I don't think I could put my wife through 20 years of this just for a retirement and that's the God's honest truth great well thank you my time is up and I yield back and chair thank you mr. Gonzalez that is so disturbing I would call their own seems very basic that your housing should not be a thought in your mind and the fact that it would drive you out of the service a career choice that you were trying to make is it's just an abomination for all three of you and I think I'm the only one with around two questions but for for all three of you if you could answer for me since the implementation of the tenant bill of rights and the what we've been told is layer of oversight on base from the service where they have supposedly put in place someone that residents of privatized military housing can go to that is employed by the service that is responsible for you know taking care of responsiveness or lack there of you know helping you man you maneuver and interact with the company that is responsible for fixing your issues have you noticed any difference since the implementation of that layer of oversight and the tenant bill of rights do you have better response time do you feel like you have a place to go if there is a lack of responsiveness and are you getting what you need in terms of the quality and speed of the workmanship to fix any issues private called wrong you can begin again I don't feel like I have too much time and experience in but from going back and reading people's posts that they do you're experiencing you're experiencing problems yourself so whether it was what happened before or not do you feel like you have a place you can go to get responsiveness from your service when you're not getting it from the company and you've made clear what the problem is with the company's responsiveness I don't I wish I could expand on that more but I there's just this general sense of there's no priority there's no urgency because there's not someone to go to or because when you go to the person that's responsible for that they're they're not taking care of your your needs that is how I felt that is how I felt though so the military housing office is obligated to provide us with an advocate who's supposed to work on our behalf help us through situations like this in my case that failed me I had to reach out I had to find third-party advocacy my wife had to find third-party advocacy because we weren't being guided properly we weren't being told what to do we were making mistakes but nobody was kind of like holding our hand this is a complicated process I don't know how to do it I'm still learning how to do my job so yeah I do feel failed miss wiley I will agree with a lot of what what pfc coloron said with regard to the government housing office has been a very little assistance unfortunately with navigating this my husband actually ended up switching units after you know command was really unable to part of the part of the switch was we're glad now that we're in different command because we're command wasn't able to help us we but we had nowhere to go we felt very alone against kind of the giant that is the housing company and their complicit contract contractors and i miss christian can you speak to the experience of the families that you've interacted with in terms of whether there's been improvement in where they can go for assistance when they're not getting the kind of you know the kind of response they need out of the company responsible for dealing with their challenges I believe this is a really individual to installation question I do think that there are some advocates on the installation in different locations that are doing an amazing job trying to help residents but their hands are tied so regardless of if they have the ability and they are doing their job I will say that I only know of three installations where the government housing office has successfully helped residents in any meaningful way when they've gone to them but I would say that even if they do try to assist them or give them information they don't know state or local laws and they most definitely are very poorly versed on disability laws so when residents are asking questions as it relates to a fair housing act violation or whether or not the implementation implementation of section 504 the rehabilitation act applies on their installation that resident advocate does not know and has nobody really to seek counsel from to get that resident in answer fabulous okay um Judge Carter do you have any additional questions I'll take that as a no I think that is bad operations we probably have the doors down that's what we're yeah yeah that's the next step I don't know how many yeah my patience my patience has run out um and I I know that committees has as well well thank you to the three of you for your courage um particularly to you private holder on we uh know that we have your back the law that we that we passed that included the tenant bill of rights is designed to allow you to feel free to share with us freely about the concerns that you have and you want to make sure that that the last thing that should drive someone out of the service that that it was a choice they made to serve their country is the housing that is supposed to be keeping your family comfortable and safe and that shouldn't be a second thought I mean we all experience problems with housing no matter where you live but generally you should be able to take care of that pretty quickly and you shouldn't start with your house you're already in a dangerous situation with your job every single day it shouldn't be dangerous to live in your military housing and and it's just unbelievably disturbing that we're still at this level of of danger and difficulty I mean seven children fell out of a window with and had brain injuries in four years I I'm speechless um okay assuming no other members have questions of this panel thank you so much for your participation we appreciate your input and your feedback and just know that we will stay on top of this as a as a committee thank you very much okay we'll uh we'll allow for a few minutes to switch to our second panel and so the subcommittee will stand and recess briefly briefly for that purpose