 This is Think Tech Hawai'i. Community matters here. Aloha and welcome to Hawai'i Together. I'm Keli'i Akina on the Think Tech Hawai'i Broadcast Network. Our islands are filled with such beauty, such as the Kalalau Trail, which is behind me on the island of Kaua'i. There are places of such beauty all throughout the islands and on the island of Oahu. We're very familiar with the Ko'olau Mountain Range and a stairwell called the Stairway to Heaven. The gentleman I have today is a medical doctor who has been making Hawai'i healthy and active during his career. I'm so delighted to have Vernon Anstel. We're going to talk about the haiku stares, the voyages of the hokulea, and even protecting Hawai'i against such infestations as rat lungworm. You're going to like this gentleman because he's been serving our community for several decades. Please welcome to the program Dr. Vernon Anstel. Vernon, aloha. Good to have you, Dr. Anstel. Thank you for inviting me. How are you doing? I'm well, thank you. Well, you're well, and you're making other people well. Hopefully. You know, you've been in the islands for about how many years? Oh, it must be 35 years. You're a true kama'aina. You've really been helping the people in all the things we've done. Tell us a little bit about your career and what you do. Well, I'm originally from England, so I got my medical training in England and did general internal medicine, and then I specialized in tropical medicine. That was my passion. I worked at the hospital for tropical diseases in London for seven years. But then I came to Hawai'i, and so ironically I had to give up tropical medicine and go back doing mainly general internal medicine with some tropical medicine on the side. So you can practice full-time tropical medicine in London, but not in Hawai'i. Now, you've also been involved in public health in many ways in your career. What are some of the things you've done that are quite interesting? Well, I was part of the Department of Public Health at the University for several years, and just general public health projects that I've been involved in over the years. You know, for those of us who may not be all that familiar with the different areas in which physicians work, what kinds of things did you do in the area of public health? Well, mainly looking at diseases such as leptospirosis and then more recently the rat lungworm areas that we've been looking at. And we're going to take a look at that in the second segment of the program. You know, it takes a lot to keep us healthy in Hawai'i and to keep us active. How did you put the two together? You've been helping people both to maintain their personal health and to be able to build an environment here that is safe and wholesome for outdoor activity. Well, there's clearly very good evidence that have been shown repeatedly that exercise is one of the keys to keeping health. Actually, for most people, though, getting exercise is not that easy. People get bored going to the gym, going for walks, even going jogging. So you really need something that will motivate most people to be outside exercising. Well, you know, I exercise daily. I fill the tub, pull the plug and fight the current. But I think you've been helping people to do some things that are a little more rigorous, like scale the stairway to heaven. And I'd like to chat a little bit about that. Give us some background. You know, we have these beautiful mountains in the Ko'olau here on the windward side of the main island of Oahu. And the reason I am so explicit is because many of our viewers come from across the world. And this is kind of like a Jurassic Park backdrop, really, when you take a look at the Ko'olau, magnificent cliffs and so forth. But there's a place called the Stairwell to Heaven, the Haiku Stairs. Tell us a little bit about it. Well, the stairs were originally built in 1942 by the U.S. Navy. It was part of the response to the attack at Pearl Harbor. And what they wanted to do was to be able to send radio messages to submarines in Tokyo Bay and in the Indian Ocean and to Australia and have them over a certain frequency that wouldn't get detected. So they could do it without getting the messages picked up. Was there a tower or some equipment that was placed at the top of the stairs? They erected an antenna. They used Haiku Valley as an amphitheater, if you like, for erecting antennae across the valley. So it's almost like a natural big dish. I think in some ways, yes, that's fair to say, yes, yes. And so it had military purposes. What an interesting origin of its purposes. So the stairwell was actually built so that military personnel and contractors could go up and use and maintain the radar. Not radar, but the antenna. That's correct, yeah. And then what happened? After the war, it was taken over, I believe, by the Coast Guard for many years. They set up an omega station there in the valley. And then eventually it became obsolete because of satellites and things like that being much better at sending messages around the world. And so it fell into disrepair. And people were climbing. They took the opportunity to climb while the stairs were there, but not that many people at that time. And then eventually, I believe, in the 1980s, the stairs were actually officially closed. And why was that? They were closed by the city and county, right? They were closed by the Coast Guard, I think, at the time. The Coast Guard closed it, but who has the jurisdiction over it? No, the stairs themselves are city and county. Okay, so it was still under the military when they were closed in the 80s? Yes. And why was that? Why were they closed? I think because, well, all the stairs themselves have become obsolete. We didn't need to get official access to go up to the summit. But then there was concerns about trespassing and liability and that sort of thing. So they decided just to close them. Now tell us a little bit about the city's management of that. What happened after the military closed it? After the military closed for many years, although the stairs were officially closed, people were going up. I don't seem to worry too much about stairs. You know, I never did that when I was in high school, but that was the thing to do for many of my peers. For good reason. You know, during the daytime for a pleasant hike or more clandestine activity in the evenings, it was a popular part of our culture here in Hawaii. Back in the late 70s and the 80s. And then actually in the early 2000s, Jeremy Harris's administration spent almost a million dollars to improve the condition of the stairs. They'd fallen into disrepair. And so they spent, as I said, about a million dollars to repair the stairs and they were in excellent condition. And there was a plan to reopen them to the general public. And then unfortunately, around that time, there was the tragedy at Sacred Falls. And so that raised, again, the concern about liability. And then add into the mix people trying to sneak in, security getting put in place by city and county during the daytime, which inevitably encouraged people to go in at night. So that disrupted the neighborhood at the base of the stairs in the middle of the night and not surprisingly, some of the neighbors who were very inconvenienced by this became very vocal opponents to the stairs and express their desire to have the stairs removed. So really, they've never been officially reopened since the restoration. Now here's something that I don't think many people realize, that the stairs are substantially restored, that they actually are in good condition for the most part for being able to trek up to the top of the mountain. Is that correct? Yes, they're in very good condition. There's one area that was damaged in a storm, but it's just superficial damage, which could be repaired for a few thousand dollars. And they're still used. People still trespassing, despite the fact that there's security there, now 24 hours a day. As a physician who's been experienced in public health issues, do you feel that they're safe? Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, it's a stairway. It's probably one of the safest hiking trails in Hawaii. It's a stairway with railings on either side. You go up or you go down. You can't get lost. And with just minimal common sense, you aren't going to get injured up there. Okay, so you've mentioned some of the reasons or some of the noise or objections associated with attempts to reopen the trail. What do you think the real reason is beneath all of these? Why is it that we've had this safe opportunity for outdoor activity, a public asset, but for all these years it has sat there? What do you think the causes are for that? Well, I think the opponents who live at the base of the stairs, they're very passionate about not having the stairs reopened and they've been very vocal about it. And add to this the underlying concern that many governmental agencies have about liability. It's completely misrepresented, but they're worried about liability. As I mentioned, the stairs are very safe. And if our group were able to control access to the stairs, we talked about a process called managed access. All right. So we would control who goes up there. Unfortunately, people would have to pay. There's no way around that. The city and county, the state, nobody's willing to sort of fund a project like that. So people would have to pay. And that money would be used for insurance, for staffing, for the guides, the docents. It would be used for maintenance. It would be used for insurance. Now you have a management plan then, so to speak. Yes. And who would basically be responsible for that? The private sector non-profit endeavor or is it a government endeavor? We think it would probably be a public-private partnership. Okay. And our mission really would be to create an educational, cultural, and recreational experience for people when they go up there. So it wouldn't just be the ability to climb the stairs. People would learn about the very rich culture in the valley and learn about all the native plants that are up there and things like that. It would be fabulous. So you talk about the recreational aspect, which is obvious in terms of scaling so many stairs. And by the way, how many stairs are there? 3,922. Okay. That's a lot of calories to burn on that trip. Yes. Some parts are very steep. It's quite a workout. But in addition to that, you say there's cultural value. Now here in Hawaii today, we're very sensitive about cultural issues. And you are no doubt aware of the conflict that's taking place over on the Big Island on Mauna Kea, concerning the construction of the 30-meter telescope. What are some of the cultural issues that are involved here? And have you had any objection from factions of the community? In some respects, we've had very few objections. We have tried to be very sensitive about the issues. We're looking to partner with other groups, Hawaiian groups, and maybe help to preserve the culture in the valley and educate people about the culture. Well, I know that there are many Native Hawaiians who are actually in support of a proper management of the environment and the opportunity for use. You know a little bit about the history when we go back to the time of Hawaiian chiefs and so forth. How is this place regarded then or used? Well, people would cross the mountain in that area from the Halava side to the Kaniyaui side. So people were on the mountain on a pretty regular basis. So it was a passageway. Correct. And we in modern Hawaii would be able to re-experience that kind of crossing if the stairs were open. Yeah. Well, this is a fascinating issue and we'll come right back to it at the start of the next segment in a moment and talk about a couple of other issues like your service on the voyages of the Hokulea. And don't go away, okay? I'm with Dr. Vernon Anstel, who is the president of the Friends of Haiku Stairs, talking with us a bit about his career in making Hawaii healthy and active. And I'm Kaylee Iakina. We'll be back after this short message on the Think Tech of Hawaii Broadcast Network. Aloha Kakao. I am Andrea. I am from Italy. And I've been studying and working here in Hawaii for more than three years for my PhD. Hawaii is home to a truly fantastic community of middle and high school students. And did you know some of them are currently out there right now using their free time to invent new quantum computers? And did you know some of them are exploring cybersecurity and the new frontiers of robotics? I am just always amazed as I talk to them at science fairs. Oh, but there's more. Did you know that these students are coming here on Think Tech Hawaii to share their story with us? Come and join the new young talents making way show and discover how these students are shaping our future. We're coming on February the 6th every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only here at Think Tech Hawaii. Mahalo. There's never been... Welcome back to Hawaii Together. My guest today is Dr. Vernon Anstel, the president of the Haiku Stairs or the group that actually is promoting the reopening of the stairway to heaven. And you're watching this on Hawaii Together. We call our program Hawaii Together because with all my heart I believe that the way we can advance ourselves as all people in the state of Hawaii is to work together. There's an ancient Hawaiian saying, not that old actually, but for hundreds of years it's been said, a pule kakou. You've heard that in gatherings. Let's pray together. Let's pray together. A pule kakou. Well, in my life I want to see that we also a hana kakou. In other words, let's work together because divided there's nothing we can do but united nothing can stop us. So we have put this program together, Hawaii Together to show how people from all walks of life are working together to build a better economy, government and society. I'm going to go back to Dr. Vernon Anstel and we're going to talk about some very fascinating issues. Dr. Anstel, before we leave the topic of the stairway to heaven, the Haiku Stairs in the Ko'olau Mountain Range, why is that important? Why is it important that we reopen it? What value does that serve for the people of Hawaii? I think there's so many aspects that are so important. Climbing the stairs, it's a recreational experience. Just actually getting to the summit, going up through the clouds often, it's almost a spiritual experience. It's certainly a very inspiring experience. The views obviously are completely spectacular. But then you can mix into all that the very rich cultural history of the valley that could be explained by the guides and actually visualized as people go up. The platforms on the stairs are such a beautiful way to look across the whole valley all the way down to the heia fish ponds. You can see the Ahupua open up in front of you. You can explain the whole history of that way of farming that H&Y has had. Then there's all the educational aspects, the native plants that are up there in large numbers. Some very rare, some very endangered species. There's so much that people can enjoy up there. It's a tragedy for the fact that they're not open and that people can't enjoy it. I'm glad for the work you're doing at Friends of the Haiku Stairs. It just gives me chicken skin to listen to you describe the possibility of being able to stand where people before us centuries ago stood and traveled. You've also done that in another venue. That is in the Hokulea Voyaging Canoes that have now traversed the world. What an incredible tribute to the wonderful knowledge of practical science that the Hawaiians had centuries ago. If I understand correctly, you got to play a role played by some form of kahuna in ancient Hawaii to go along with at least one or two of the voyages to practice the art of medicine on board to keep the crew healthy and alive, in fact. Tell us a little bit about your voyaging history with the Canoes of the Hokulea. I was very privileged and very, very fortunate to be able to serve as a medical officer on one of the legs of the Malama Honua voyage around the world. Wonderful. I learned so much with that experience that I can't say how grateful I am for that experience. I learned so much about Hawaiian culture, obviously. But we were in New Zealand and so we learned a lot about the culture of the Māoris. Now, tell me, what were some of the challenges you faced out there on the open sea with the Hokulea? Did we have a big ship like the Mercy traveling along with it so that you could easily put somebody onto a little dinghy and their medical cares would be taken care of? Or did you actually have to make do with the resources at hand? Tell us a little bit about some of the issues you faced. You have to make do with what's available. There's no Mercy ship right alongside if anything goes wrong. We do have an escort boat that follows the Hokulea but often they can be out of sight. You're pretty much on your own and the crew understand that. I must say the crew are very professional, very well trained and very well prepared. They're basically pretty fit and healthy and they take care of themselves when they're on the canoe. What are some of the more significant health challenges that were faced that required medical attention? I think the main things that can happen, obviously motion sickness, sea sickness, is a big one especially when you first start out on a voyage. Then minor cuts and scrapes that become infected quite easily when you're at sea. Things get wet, moist, they can't dry up and they become infected. That can be a challenge. If you're going ashore periodically then that's when most of the problems arise. People get careless when they go ashore and then pay for it days, even weeks later when they're actually at sea. When you say careless, do you mean they get a cut or an operation or something gets infected? They get a mosquito bite that gets infected and that sort of thing. Minor things that you wouldn't think twice about normally. One of the important values of the canoes that you have gone with has been to replicate as practically as we possibly can processes from ancient Hawaiians in terms of the navigational tools, in terms of the canoe building, protocols and so forth. How do you do that with medicine when human lives are involved? Was there an attempt simply to practice ancient Hawaiian medicine or did you bring along with you your knowledge and your tools from modern science? It varied with the medical officer. Some medical officers would practice ancient Hawaiian sort of healing medicine and others of us would be strictly practicing western medicine. I think one thing we always had to keep in mind was that some of the crew might be using their own ways of healing and we would have to respect that and that would be a very stupid thing to do to dismiss something like that. So we'd have to be aware of it at least and encourage people to continue doing it and maybe, depending on the circumstances, using both. Often that's what works best of all. It's a combined approach. Sometimes that's what they do in China. They use traditional medicine and more modern medicine and use them in combination. That's fascinating because sometimes the stereotypical understanding of the Hokulea and its mission is that everything about it is ancient with an aversion to anything modern but you've described how just keeping people healthy, the medical practice had to combine both ancient and modern practices together as needed. I think that applies in other areas as well on the Hokulea. For example, in the diet that people are eating. I think originally I think I've got this right that they thought they would have very strictly a native Hawaiian diet but that turned out to be not particularly practical and you really have to be careful keeping the crew healthy, keeping the crew safe and so if people just weren't eating because they couldn't they weren't attracted to the native diet you know they hadn't been doing it for most of their lives they would have become undernourished and that would not be good. Same thing would apply to some of the for example there's navigation lights that have to be on by law they have to have those. It's a balance I think between safety and reality and trying to preserve as much as you can of native Hawaiian. Would you say that balance has evolved since one of the earlier voyages with Eddie Aikau and the tragedy of death? Yes I think so and to me quite rightly so I mean it's just being realistic being safe and it's only by I personally think that it's only by doing things like that that you can actually achieve something which was truly amazing which was the Malama Honua sailing around the world. And I know that the original pilot for the Hokulea Nainoa Thompson spent hours upon hours being planetarian and yet that's not in conflict with using traditional navigational techniques. I mean that's mind blowing I think the traditional navigation I don't understand it I've tried but I don't understand it it requires years I think of practice to perfect that. But it's like an art and a science combined that's my understanding. We've got only a couple minutes left some of your endeavors in public health like dealing with rat lungworm. Would you care to share with us some of your thoughts about that infestation and some of the things that have been done and need to be done? Yeah my background is in tropical medicine so when an opportunity came up to serve on the governor's task force for rat lungworm disease I was happy to get involved and I actually chaired a subcommittee on management of rat lungworm disease so we look into things like diagnosis and treatment and it's a very exciting group to be involved in. And what is the state of rat lungworm in Hawaii? Well rat lungworm the sort of type of disease that we get here seems to be much more severe than is experienced in the other parts of the world where it occurs. How extensive is it? How much of a public health threat is it? I think it's a threat but I don't want to over exaggerate it but for people who actually get infected it can be a major life changing experience and there's certain pockets of infection for example on the big island and on Maui certain areas of those islands we've had cases on Oahu but they're much rarer. Well let me let you close in your role as a doctor healer physician what are some things that you can do in Hawaii to protect ourselves individually protect our families from rat lungworm disease? I think washing produce, salads, fruits washing it very well under running water really examine every single leaf make sure it's free of slugs and snails and that sort of thing and then I think avoiding kale is a good idea kale seems to be particularly high risk type of produce but otherwise I think people should continue to eat salad vegetables and wash them very carefully and go out there and enjoy your diet and be very careful in your own garden controlling slugs and snails and rats since they're all part of the life cycle Well Dr. Anstel thank you so much for your career and I really mean it of making us healthier and more active appreciate it Aloha to you my guest today Dr. Vernon Anstel is president of the friends of Haiku Stairs and he gives us some wonderful insights and counsel this is a beautiful place in Hawaii it is a place to be healthy and active and my hat goes off to all those who are making it so much so much so I'm Kaylee Akina and I wish you the very best Ehana Kako let's work together until next time you're watching Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network Aloha