 And all right. Today is September 21. This is a meeting of the Disability Access Advisory Committee. It's approximately 1132 or something. And present are me, Myra Ross, and Marty Smith. Are you here? Yes, I am. Elise Link, are you here? Yes, I am. OK. And Sarah and Darren, are you here? I'm here. And Ruth Smith, I believe, is not here at present. So we have four out of our six members. And this is Tori, I'm here. Oh, Tori, I'm sorry. How could I forgot Tori? So we have five out of our six members. Wow, I'm sorry about that. I had a flu shot last night, and I don't feel very good. So sorry about that, Tori. It's amazing how bad a flu shot can make you feel. OK. So we have moved. Well, I thought we were going to add a public comment period. And I don't know if there's anybody here at this time for public comment. Is there anyone who's here to make a comment? No, there isn't. OK, it's just the applicants. OK, I thought we were going to add one at the beginning and keep the one at the end. That's not on the agenda. So I put it after new items, new business, because we have guests that are here today from Amherst College. And I felt that they're on the agenda. So perhaps we would have them go first. Yeah. OK, OK. So why don't we start with the Amherst College group who are going to talk about signage and wayfinding. All right. So I just made Seth and Andrew panelists. So we'll give them a second to let their audio and cameras work. And there was another doorbell. Ruth is here. Oh, yeah, but I'm not going to be able to stay very long. I'm expecting a relative to come see me. So I may log out. That's nice. OK. Nice to see you, however, briefly. Thank you. We have representatives from Amherst College and Seth and the design consultant working with Amherst College. Andrew Bressi? Yeah, thank you. Who will be speaking with you all about the Amherst College signage and wayfinding program. And so the town council, so they have a variety of signs that are proposed on their campus, on their private property. But for the purposes of this meeting, the town council has requested that various boards, including this board, review the signs that are in the town council's jurisdiction, which includes the town common and the public right away. So I'll let Seth and Andrew go over their presentation and to answer any questions. Hi, everyone. How is everyone this morning? What is this? Morning. Still morning. Just a quick introduction. I'm Seth Volshoots. I'm with the design and construction office at Amherst College. Tom is on vacation. My supervisor is the director of the department who's on vacation today and couldn't join us. We are excited to show you what we've been working on. I'm going to be glimpsed into a much larger project. I will let Andrew Bressi of Royal Bressi, our science consultant, take it in one second. Just a quick follow up to what Marine has mentioned. This is part of a much bigger project of wayfinding throughout campus and trailblazing to get people to campus. Amherst College has historically not had any signs. We are looking to rectify that and be more inclusive and tell people where they need to go and get them there, especially to find visitor parking and not be driving through campus aimlessly in that pursuit. So we've been working with Royal Bressi for, I think, about 18 months and have put together a just, I think, a really beautifully simple in execution but with a lot of thought behind it signage package. And we are excited to kind of run through the highlights of it today and then we'll answer any questions you have. Andrew? Great. Can folks hear me? Yes, yes. OK, great. Because I can't hear myself for some reason in my headphones. I can never figure these headsets out. But anyway, so what we've done over the past, I'm going to say 18 months, almost 24 months, is to develop a comprehensive sign program for the Amherst campus. And this includes signs for vehicles, as well as folks who are on foot or wheelchair. And it starts with welcoming folks to the campus in the form of what we call gateway signs. And we have two types of gateway signs. Two of them are very horizontal and low, about overall four feet tall at the most. And then incorporate granite sort of bases with a long horizontal sign panel that says Amherst College. And I'll show you where those are located. The other type of sign is a single post with a sign panel that projects off of it. The post is a very dark charcoal gray. And all of the sign panels you're going to see with the exception of one are very dark in color, kind of like an eggplant color. And all of the information on the signs is white. And so you're reading very legible lettering on a dark background, which we find to be very effective in two ways. One, you can see the information very clearly. And two, the sign itself tends to recede in the landscape. So the signs aren't screaming at you, but the information is there and clear for you to see and understand. The tall signs range in height from 8 feet, 6 inches to the bottom of the sign to about 7 feet, 6 inches to the bottom of the sign. Other sign types in the program are directional signs for vehicles. So this is overall about a 12 foot 6 inch sign with a sign panel that's 2 feet 10 inches wide by 4 feet, 8 inches tall. And again, it's a single post with a sign projecting off of it, kind of like a tavern style sign. And the height of the bottom of the panel is about 7 feet, 6 inches tall. One comment we got from town council is if that could go to 8 feet, that would be helpful just in case there's snow removal equipment that needs to pass underneath the sign for whatever reason that it won't get hit. Lower profile directional signs that are about 5 feet tall for information within the campus. And then various parking identification signs for the Amherst parking lots. All of these sign types, including building identification signs, are a single post with a sign panel projecting off of it. When you're further in the campus, there are some lower profile signs that are double posted for identifying buildings as well. But for the most part, they're all a single posted sign panel, a single post with a sign panel projecting off of them. Again, they're all very dark with white lettering. For the case of the vehicular directional signs, that's reflective lettering as well. And then we have, finally, pedestrian-oriented signs. We have three forms of a campus map display. One is a three-sided vertical display that's about 7 feet, 8 inches tall, by 2 and 1 half feet wide on each side. And they're like display cabinets. On one side would be a campus map with a directory. Another side could be a poster about special events. The third side could be for posting notices, that kind of thing. And these would be located in more public areas of the campus, such as over at Alumni House, or over at Admissions and Athletics, and over at 79 South Pleasant, where the human resources is located. There's a two-sided version, which we're locating at visitor parking lots, so that when folks arrive at a visitor parking lot, they can get out and go up to the map and orient themselves as to where they are in relation to the campus and principal destinations. The other side could be an event poster as well. And we have a tabletop version of the campus map, which is a single post of granite with about a 3-foot, 9-inch wide by 2-foot, tall map panel that's inclined about 30 degrees. And then finally, we have a very small, 4-foot, tall directional sign for people walking along pathways. Lastly, we're also using larger-scale banners on posts for things like the theater, the museums, the music hall, those kinds of things that are colorful and celebratory and welcome folks to these important visitor destination. All of the graphics that we've used on the signs follow the Amherst College graphic identity guidelines, so the lettering and the arrows, the symbols, the colors. They're all very consistent with the Amherst College graphic identity. We have these signs are installed with concrete footings. In some cases, they're breakaway footings along the campus perimeter, for example. But in most cases, they're just a direct burial in concrete. As far as the signs that your group is concerned with are the same signs that the town council is looking at, that we're reviewing with the town council as well. But the program is comprehensive. It's throughout campus and a few parcels throughout town that are Amherst College parcels. We've also coordinated with the town sign program, which is being developed and implemented so that we're not conflicting with those sign locations as well. This is an example on these maps, which can be hard to see, but these are the district zoning maps, which we've located our signs on, and we're also showing the town sign locations as well. This is a location that we had for trailblazing to the college, but it's been removed because in coordination with the town, we found the town was also wayfinding in certain areas to Amherst College, and so we don't need to install that sign. So we've made some updates to this. But I'm going to walk through these sign locations with you. This, for example, is a vehicular directional sign location along South Pleasant as you approach the intersection of Route 16, 1, 16, and 9. There's also another directional sign coming in the other direction heading north. This is where the principal gateway to campus is located at the corner of College Street and Northampton, or 1, 16, and 1, 6, and 9. And we'll show that to you. We also have a tabletop map kiosk located here over by Converse Hall. As you can see, these faded out signs are other sign locations, but they're really not in the area of where you're concerned with. We are continuing, as I said, to show town sign locations, in the mix here so you know where those are located. At the other end of campus, South Pleasant is the other gateway location, which is at the entrance to the athletics and admissions area. And we also have a small directional sign here, helping you to way find two admissions and to the athletic destinations. I'm sorry, that was, I got confused here. This is Quadrangle Drive. So this is another entrance into campus where we have the tall version of the campus gateway. And we have a small directional sign that is directing you to accessible parking in the Quadrangle area where the museum is located in the chapel. But for the most part, we're directing you back out for visitor parking because we really want to try to keep the amount of traffic on campus to a minimum. And then further down South Pleasant, again, towards the athletics center, zoom out here. So this is the athletics center building here and or rank. Here's a secondary gateway location here, similar to the low horizontal version. And I'll show that to you. And we are identifying the parking lot. But there's another vehicular directional sign here. As well as a small directional sign, getting you to or rank into admissions. And then at admissions, we're providing a tri, a three-sided kiosk as well. And just prior to this, on South Pleasant is another vehicular directional sign heading North over by East Drive. We have another campus gateway sign. That's the single posted tavern style. We're also identifying the parking lot, the Dickinson parking lot and providing vehicular directional signs just prior to East Drive heading West. And we're also identifying the parking lot. So these are elevations of those locations. So the first one is the primary gateway sign, which is a low long panel with a granite base. That is in the form of a seat wall as well. So this is a spot where people can sit. And it has another small granite. Plinth on the left side of the gateway, propping it up as well. And you can actually see underneath this sign and see over the sign. So we're doing all we can to, to prevent blockages of views to the landscape beyond. Trying to make this of a good scale, but also not too much of a billboard kind of. Expression here. And you can see in the plan view here, how we're doing sidewalk improvements as well. Coordinating with. Mass DOT on the work they're going to be doing on the intersection here to make these improvements to the sidewalk. As well as curb cuts and the crosswalk. Leading up to leading to them. So here's the seat wall portion. Of the gateway. This. Curved purple. Sign panel here. And then there's a second. Granite plinth on the, on the end of it as well. This is a similar gateway over by the athletics. And admissions area. Where we are also. Proposing a seat wall kind of. Arrangement with the sign panel. This is set back with the existing pine trees as a backdrop. And proposing. Plantings as well to really create. A nice setting for the gateway at this location here. Here you can see a vehicular direction. Sign heading south just prior to the, to the entrance to. The athletics and admissions area as well. And a small directional sign. There. Here's a plan view. So we're proposing. A nicely aligned. Pathway. Paved pathway. To coincide with the gateway and the seat wall. Leading to a cobbled. Curb cut and. Smooth cobble crosswalk. That leads to the athletic center there. This is the East Drive. Gateway. And this is that tall. Tavern style. Sign panel type here. And again, improvements to the sidewalk and grading. With a granite seat wall along. The curve here with plantings and trees. Really. Trying to create a very welcoming. Kind of setting. That's also improved. The pedestrian pathway here. Along with it. You can see that in plan view. So. We're carrying those. Those sidewalk improvements right across East Drive. As well. But the gateway is here on the west side. Of the entrance here with. Ground cover plantings and trees. And the granite seat wall. On both sides. This is at the entrance. To quadrangle drive a similar. Single posted tavern style sign. That says Amherst college and the established date. And on both of these gateways, we identify the. The entrance drive. So this is says the sign says quadrangle drive. And as you can see here. If I zoom in. This says East Drive. As well. So that helps folks orient themselves as to where they are. These are the types of directional signs that I mentioned before. So this directional sign here is on. College street. Heading west. Just prior to East Drive. And we're talking about. The parking office, the South lot. And Amherst college museum. So that helps folks orient themselves as to where they are. And we're talking about the South lot. And Amherst college museums, which would cover Mead. And Benasky. Indicating that there's pickup and drop off there as well. Straight ahead for admissions and athletics. And then heading. South. On South Pleasant Drive. Just prior to the major intersection there. We're directing people left down college street. And then heading south on South Pleasant. Just prior to the entrance to athletics. We have another directional sign. Getting people to admissions and athletics complex. Other vehicular directional signs. This is the location heading north. On South Pleasant street. Just prior to the intersection. Directing people right down college street for Amherst college museums. In visitor parking. And then. Heading south on South Pleasant seat. Just prior to the entrance to athletics. Getting people to admissions. Alumni gym or rank. And then right for Pratt field as well. I'm sorry. Yes, right for Pratt. And finally. The other vehicular directional sign. Is just prior to the entrance to athletics. Heading north on South Pleasant street. Where we're directing you to admissions. And then heading north. On the right side of the campus. We have a small rank Pratt field to the left and just downtown straight ahead. When you're on campus, we only have a few small directional signs on campus, but the ones that you're concerned about here on. Quadrangle Drive. Directs, those straight ahead for the accessible parking. For Johnson Chapel and museums. And again, left for. The same thing. We have a lot of other vehicles going up into the quadrangle. Other than for those accessible parking spaces. And then this is the small directional sign down by athletics. We're directing you to admissions. An alumni gym. And of course the or rank entrance. These are examples of the types of parking identification signs. Again, tall. The parking permit information. And that there's no overnight parking. At these lots as well. So we're trying to combine the identification of the lot with instructions as well to try to keep sign clutter. To a minimum. Here's an example of the three sided kiosk. This is over by admissions. And you'll see that we were, we're proposing to ensure that there's hardscape. Around the entire kiosk so that folks can. Access the information on all three sides easily. We're working with a landscape architect. To develop the approach to the, to the hardscape around these kiosks. This is an elevation showing. The height of the information, the map and the directory as well. The smallest lettering on the directory, which is a long list of destinations. And the coordinate location of that destination on the map. Is about 20 points. Or at about quarter inch. There's a lot of information. And we're trying to keep it as large as possible. At a quarter inch. This is a plan view of the three sided kiosk demonstrate. That we will be ensuring that there is sufficient circulation space around the kiosk so that whether you're walking or in a wheelchair, you can access the information. This is the tabletop. Version over by converse hall. So that when you get out of the parking lot, there's a map there that you can orient as well. So that you can get up as close as possible to the kiosk. It is about 30 inches inclined. But that can be adjusted. Anywhere between 45 degrees and 30. 30 degrees. You know, which whichever is optimal for that. Type of viewing. And we've ensured that the height of the. Surface is accessible as well. And here you can see the concrete pad will extend out so that there's a clear surface to get as close as possible. And that's, that's it. And there's a lot of information here and we're happy to circle back and. Answer any questions you might have. We're talking about anything else. Anybody have any questions or comments? Elise has raised your hand. Okay. First of all, I just want to say, I love the color contrast and the printing. And the fact that you have all these levels covered. My question has to do with your talking about sidewalk improvement. You mentioned Kabul. What does that mean in terms of surface? Usually Kabul is textured, isn't it? Well, In this case, and let me zoom into the plan view. We're using Kabul in two ways, or I should say the landscape architect has proposed using Kabul in two ways. There's smooth Kabul, which is very flat and smooth. Like an asphalt type of surface. And there's, and there's rough Kabul. Okay. The rough Kabul is used in areas where folks shouldn't be walking or. Or willing. And the smooth Kabul is used in those areas where you are to be walking or crossing, like for example, in a crossing, or in a curb cut that smooth, except for, of course, the tactile panel. For folks using canes. So it's, it's being used very Jerry, very strategically. To both beautify. The setting for the, for the, for the, for the, for the, for the, for the, the granite. So instead of having, for example. You know, dirt or, or, you know, unkept grass strips. We're using the rough Kabul so that it's well maintained all the time. And has a very nice look to it. Good to know. Was it sarin who had. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I was wondering if there are signage for accessible entrances to buildings. In campus and in areas of the campus, we are providing. Accessible directions. At non accessible building entrances. Directing you to the accessible entrance as well. So we, we are doing that. It's not in the, in the areas and, and, zones that are under consideration by the town council. And so that's why it's not, not, not being shown here, but it's part of the overall. Campus signage program. For. Inherce college buildings at non accessible entrances. We are providing. Directions to accessible. To accessible entrances. So how are they going to be like four feet or lower? Or where are they? Do we have any standards for those? Yeah. What we're, what we're doing. And I. I'm sorry. I don't have any standards for those. So what we're, what we're doing and I. I'm sorry, I don't have that to show you, because it wasn't part of the agenda here. But it is a granite post, like a six inch by six inch granite post. It has the wheelchair symbol on it and an arrow either left or right or straight ahead. That directs you to the accessible entrance. And that's about. Three and a half feet tall, I believe. So it's very, you know, it's, it's very legible and clear. It's right where you need the information, but at the same time it's a, it's a material that the college uses in, in the landscape throughout the campus, such as the, the granite. So you'll see throughout campus granite ballards or other kinds of things like that granite posts. So we're, we're playing off of that, that material. Okay. All right, thank you. Sure. Anybody else. I'd like to. Yep. Okay. A couple of things. This is a really huge project. And it's extraordinary, expensive. I've been involved in these. And I think you've done a very nice job of, of getting high contrast signage, which will be really nice to see. And also having it all branded the same so that once you see those purple signs, you know, you're on campus. That said, I have a couple of things. It would be really fabulous. And I know this is, this is crazy expensive, but it would be absolutely fabulous if the tabletop maps were tactile. That would be a really nice thing to have. Amherst college used to have a handout map of the campus that also gave slopes. And having the slopes are at least somehow an indication of what you're looking for. Which paths are too steep. For someone who's blind or in a wheelchair would be really nice. And that could be done on the tabletop. So just something to think about. As you expand this program. Because I think that would be a real asset. And the third, the third thing I want to say is you're using what's called the active accessibility symbol. And I know it's sexy and cute. But it doesn't meet either ADA or the Massachusetts architectural access board. It is not, it is not recognized by either body. And I'm not going to re-think doing that. I wasn't, to be perfectly honest, I've been an architect at the university for many years. I'm now retired. And I spoke with the Massachusetts architectural access committee about using the active accessibility symbol. Which by the way, is a copyrighted symbol. And is not actually open to the public. And I was told by the Massachusetts architectural access board that I was free to put anything on my signs. But I had to have the international symbol of accessibility. Which is the old style. So I would highly recommend that you rethink using that because you're potentially going to have a complaint against you. And I will tell you that the university has had complaints. We have had people who've come on campus and complained when they've seen the active symbol. Other than that, I think you've got a really nice program. One thing you didn't talk about is your gateway signs, your long gateway signs with the seating. You didn't talk about paving around those. I mean, if you're going to have seating, you're going to need paving, but that's just a minor technicality. It was all the plans that we showed. I didn't see it. I can go back to those. That's okay. You don't have to. I trust you. Thank you. With regard to the symbol. Honestly, we're often caught in the middle on that thing. I know I've been there. You know, because many clients really prefer that and many clients could care less. So we're always typically leading with that style as a graphic designer. I'm not a huge fan to be honest with you. But it is often a symbol that we're, we're the majority of time directed to use. And so we're trying to be proactive. And use the symbol that in our experience, most of folks actually. Ask us to use. So, but, but I'm, I'm taking your, your comment to heart. And we'll sort of just a risk. You could have to replace all of them. You know, you could have a drive-by and get a drive-by complaint through the DOJ. And have to fix them all. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have, I have. A bunch of questions. I guess. I am totally blind. So I'll tell you that. On your key asks. I tried to describe them. No, no, that's not my issue at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all of that are, you know, wonderful. And I used to be a low vision person and eggplant with white writing is perfect. Because it's very high contrast. Well, black with white isn't as good. But I, you know, purple is a color that a lot of people can see. Do you know. What? Yeah. Black sort of receipts sometimes. But the purple will draw people's attention. So my, my questions really are, I guess, outside of the scope that you thought you were coming here to talk about, which has to do with. A lot of blind people now are navigating with GPS on a phone. And on the campus. If the buildings are created in a way that they actually have addresses that a GPS can pick up. People can do wayfinding to find them. Otherwise it's a campus full of paths and none of the buildings are clear, but you actually can. There are many apps now where you can say, I want to go to converse hall and you're standing in the middle of the campus. And if the campus is appropriately mapped. You can get to converse hall. And I guess that's not signage, but it is wayfinding. So I don't know if you had anybody talk to you about that. You have had blind students at Amherst college. I know you have people who look at the school who are blind. You have blind parents. You have blind community members who use the campus or work there. So. I, I guess the question is about finding the buildings through. Through GPS mapping. And the other thing would be. On your kiosks. That are at a, at a height that people actually. Could touch. Do you have any raised lettering, any Braille. Any, anything. That would be. Accessible. Because some of these signs sound like they are. They sound like they're really high up. I assume none of them are below seven feet. Or seven and a half feet tall, right? So a tall person wouldn't crash into them. Is that right? That's correct. Okay. Cause you know that there's a pole. And if there's a pole with a thing hanging off of it. And if it's five feet tall, it's totally illegal. I assume there's a height and Marty probably knows this. At which it is legal because a person couldn't. Crash into it. Right. I don't know what that height is, but I assume you've looked into that. Yeah. Those are, those are vehicular direction, directional science. So they are. And they, and as Andrew also mentioned. The town. Department of public works. Has requirements that are above ADA requirements in order to get snow clearing. Equipment below them. So not only were we above that. So we have to be. So it's eight feet for, for that limit. Which is well above the ADA requirement. Okay. No, that's fine. But if any of them hang over. Pedestrian pathways. That's what we're talking about. That's the eight feet. That's what we're talking about. That's what we're talking about. Okay. Okay. Then I'm not worried about that. But I am worried about way finding. And I am worried about the particular. Signs that actually are at a. At a level that could be touched. And I'm actually interested in. Signs on the buildings. Like I said, and asked you about accessible entrances. Are there any signs on the building that tell you what building it is? Yes. Those were a part of an apology since I don't, I'm not sure how well they were described, but building identification signs are part of the package. There's two styles. One's kind of a tavern sign. And one's a lower one. And I'm not sure what it is. I'm not sure what it is. So. Those are two styles. One's kind of a tavern sign. One's a lower sign. Yes. We are, we are labeling all of the, all of the. Okay. So. To the right or the left or something of each door. If there is a sign that people can see. There ought to be a sign that people can touch that tells people. This is the building you think it is. The hotel room has a little placard on it that has raised numbers and a Braille number under it. If there is a sign on a building that says for a sighted person, what building this is, there needs to be a tactile way for somebody who can't read the sign to access it. I believe that's actually required. So I don't know if you talked about that at all, but I think that's something that you're gonna seriously have to think about doing. If there's a sign on the building that says what it is for visual access, there needs to be also tactile access. So I don't know what you've done about that, but I think that's a really important thing for me because so the two things that I'm really interested in is the actual mapping of the campus for GPS so that way-finding is accessible and the actual and the labels on buildings and on kiosks that are at reachable levels. If Andrew, I might let you come on the second part. The GPS mapping is an ongoing, I just speak with our director of accessibility services who's part of the office of our general council yesterday and about what we are doing or planning to do or thinking about doing in these regards. So two things, one, there's an accessibility working group which is going to take this recommendation and move forward. It has facilities, general council, office of accessibility and other people on it and they're looking at how we publish this information in our online mapping system that we already maintain for other purposes as well as accessible parking spaces and things like that. And then we are also producing an internal guide for our own people to use when scheduling events so they choose locations that are accessible on campus rather than choosing locations that are not accessible. And so that's kind of an internal thing that's not so much by navigating out on campus but it is important that when we schedule the public that we pick a space at the start that is accessible because there are some spaces on campus that are not. We also have a long standing plan. We have a very, very comprehensive accessibility study, both physical barrier study. And so we are slowly making our way through those as we are able. It is 500 pages long, not a joke. And so it's going to take time but we are working on improving both buildings and pathways as we are able including two big pathway interventions that we did this past summer. So that's kind of what we're doing on that front, on the tactile information on the key off. So that's something that we often consider. I think that the code can be a little nebulous in terms of privately owned buildings versus publicly owned buildings. But I certainly appreciate your perspective and we'll look at that kind of tactile and braille information at building entrances, particularly for those buildings that have a large public component such as the museums and athletic facilities where we're getting a lot of first time outside visitors as well. So point well taken. I guess it's like we have a bigger view that if you are a blind student and you wanted to go visit your friend in X-Dorm, so it's not just for public. There are blind people who are employed by and go to school at Emmer's College. So, and it may not be that there's one all the time but there certainly have been. And so I think part of access is access for everybody. So if you have a sign on a building that says what the building is, it has to be identifiable. And the ADA from what I understand applies more loosely to public entities than to private entities. It's not that simple. I don't think we should delve into the specifics because Title II and Title III are different. But I don't think that I get your point. I think your point is that we want to be as universally accessible in as many routes as possible. And it's about the ethos of accessibility and not always about, of course, the letter of the law governs, but Andrew's right, it does get pretty nuanced and Office of Legal Counsel gets involved. I don't think we need to delve into the specifics because I don't think that I'm qualified to go there, but it's all, there are all conversations that are happening and I think we take your point that universal accessibility is the goal. Thank you, Seth. So does the board have any recommendations for the signs that are within the town council's jurisdiction? And those are the signs that have been presented today. So I know that there's been discussion about the signs such as the tabletop kiosk and the three-sided sign. And there was mention about whether, you know, about how the Amherst College website could provide more information about the locations and perhaps the college can look into with their accessibility working group about GPS mapping and stuff of that. Were there any other comments about the signage that is within the town council's jurisdiction? And also the active accessible symbol while it is fun, a fun symbol, perhaps the college should consider using the official symbol that's recognized by MA, MAB and the ADA regulations. Were there any other comments or recommendations? Sorry about my phone, it'll stop in a minute. Does anybody have any more? No, it's a great start. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right, does someone want to make a motion? If there are no other questions or comments? And what would the motion be? What kind of recommend, would you like to give a positive recommendation to the town council or with your suggested comments such as the official ADA symbol or provide GPS mapping, you know, apps or what, or the like and to provide Braille or consider providing Braille or tactical elements to the tabletop and three-sided signs as presented as shown? Anybody want to make a motion? Gosh, that's such a long motion to repeat. So, I... Yeah. What she said. Yes, exactly. Okay. Sarah, and how do you feel about the symbol? And Tori, how do you feel about the symbol? Personally, I like the symbol, this is Tori, but if it isn't ADA approved or approved by the AAB, then I would be safe rather than sorry and use the traditional. Yeah. I feel the same way as Tori, but if they want to take it for a way, various on that, I can see myself voting in favor of that. That's true. Sarah and I would do the same thing. If you wanted to include that in their variants and request permission to use it, then go for it, because it looks so much better than the traditional symbols. I think that would be a good test of the AAB. I'd like to see what they say now. I know what they said three years ago. I'm not sure we have, and we'll talk about it internally. I'm not sure that's a battle we want to undertake. I understand. We may let someone else do that first. Well, certainly the people at Amherst College who are paying for all of this should know that there's a potential problem. We understand. Because if they get sued and they hear that you knew about it, that wouldn't be so good. I don't know what they're saying, but if they hear that you knew about it, that wouldn't be so good. Tori, were you about to say something? So I'll make a motion. And can I say the list that Maureen listed off or do I need to list them all? Sure. No, that's fine. So these are suggestions from the DAAC to the town council. So again, it would be maybe the college wants to think about the symbol and one way or the other, maybe the college could consider what improvements can be made to the college's website. And if in the future as the program expands, could GPS mapping or application be provided to provide wayfinding directions to the various facilities on the campus and for the college to consider providing tactile elements for the tabletop and three-sided signs. I would expand that a little bit more. What did you mean by the website, Maureen? Well, Seth had mentioned that there is a accessibility working group that is meeting currently to explore messaging on the website regarding- We use an online, the map that you see on the kiosk is a reproduction of an online map that you can use on your phone. And that's- If you can see it. And that's what we use as a college to do all the mapping. Including for accessibility. Okay, so I don't know anything about doing it that way with using the apps that pick up the accessibility apps. I don't think would work with something off of a website. They work off of something that's been mapped like they usually use Apple or Google Maps to pick up the buildings. So I don't think that the website thing solves anything as far as what I said. So I don't know what it would solve, except that people who can see a map in their phone would be happy to use it because people are so used to doing that. So it sounds like to me that the statement or the comment is that Amher should explore accessible GPS mapping for visually impaired experience. Right. Yes. That sounds like what I'm hearing from you anyway, which is different from the type of mapping that is currently being used. Correct. Okay. Yeah. And there are companies that will do indoor mapping as well. That's a whole other topic that probably isn't part of what you're doing, although it may be that you're doing signage indoors. Yeah, I mean, I think it's helpful to have this kind of understanding, but in terms of the project at hand at this moment, it isn't part of the scope of what we're doing, but certainly appreciate here understanding that there is this other aspect that could be available to us at some stage. Well, it's part of wayfinding. Sure. And so wayfinding has a different definition for different people, that's all. And so I just want it to be known to you that this is a sighted people plan that you have. And perhaps some of it is good also for low vision people. It depends how low their vision is, but this is not a plan that is truly accessible. So that's, you know, because for example, there could be on each pole that has to do with a pedestrian pathway, not the ones off the big street that have to do with cars, but maybe even that too. There could be on the pole, there could be some Braille on the pole that says what the sign says. So not everybody who enters the campus enters it in a car. So I mean, there are things that you're missing. And I'm very torn about how to vote on it because you are spending an incredible amount of money. And when you usually spend that much money, you're expected to do a pretty comprehensive kind of accessibility plan and this isn't. But a lot of things that we're talking about are beyond both the purview of the committee at hand and the purview of the people in this room. I mean, from our side, right? So it's not that we aren't, you know, considering some of these things, but, you know, this involves a much larger discussion with people at the college at much higher pay grades than me. And I think we take all of the recommendations to heart, but I don't think we are, I don't think it should be expected that this group addresses all of the issues in all of the manners that need to be addressed. I think that's unrealistic and not, and also not in the purview of anyone in this room, including me, including from our side. So I think we should focus the discussion on, I agree that we need to explore those and we will take that up at the accessibility working group, but that is also way beyond, again, the purview of what we are. This part of it, I agree, wayfinding is a bigger discussion, but this part of it is about signage and most of it is vehicular signage, not all of it. And so we do need to look at some of the pedestrian level signs, I agree. But most of it is vehicular signage, yes. Keep in mind that we have none now, absolutely nothing. So this is a huge step forward and it's an incremental step, it doesn't get us all the way there. Okay. All right, thank you. So do we have a second? Is there an made the motion? Do we have a second? I guess I can second it. I'll second it, second. Tori, I can second it. Okay. All right, and we have a roll call. Let's see here. So Elise. Yeah. Okay. Myra. I think I'm not abstain. Okay. Tori. Yes. Okay, Marty. Yes. Ruth. Yes. Yes. Did I get everyone? So one, two, three, four, five. And Sarah, thank you, sorry. Yeah. Yes. All right. Well, thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Nice presentation. Good. I love the purple. Thanks for sharing. Okay. Thank you. Take care. It's a pleasure. You too. Thanks for meeting you. Okay. Sometimes raising consciousness is uncomfortable. Signs are signs. Okay. All right. So we have another issue. We have an application for variants from, what number is it? Main Street, East Common or something? Yes. It's for 462 Main Street. Right. Which is for a, I believe a mixed use building. It's by, it's near the train tracks to give you sort of a landmark. So this applicant has actually already gone through their public hearing process with the MAAB. Oh, another one of those. Yeah. Well, we were supposed to meet last week. But I will say, well, let's see here. So the variants, the section under MAAB, section 41.2.2 is regarding signage, the mounting height shall be 60 inches above the finished floor to center line. And it's for, what signs? Hold on a second. It is for their various signs for the maintenance closet, mechanical room and for their restrooms. And they, and for, I guess, various other, various other interior signs such as maybe elevator and staircase. And so they were all, so they put them up, the contractor put them up. Sorry, I'm trying to find the page that explains this. So bear with me for some. So there were 38 interior signs that were installed at 54.5 inches above the finished grade, above the finished floor to the center line of the sign. The standard says that they needed to be 5.5 inches higher. Is it because the doors have a place, like the design of the door, you can't put one there? Is that why they did it? My hunch is it was an oops, that they made a mistake. And in their applications, it says removing the signs and relocating them 5.5 inches higher will result in wall damage in related repair costs. These repairs are an excessive and unreasonable cost without any substantial benefit for persons with disabilities. What is the use of this building? A mixed use building. So there's some apartments and I don't know if it's gonna be office or retail. I'm not sure, but on the ground floor, there would be some sort of non-residential component. And these are wall signs, right? Yeah, and I can pull those up. Yep, exactly, yep. I assume they have Braille on them, right? They do. Okay, yep, they're pretty required. That's even nicer for people that need Braille, right, Myra? That's how tall you are. You know, like if you're a really tall person, it's probably low. But she said it is a, oh, I see. Well, I mean... It's fine for me, I'm short. To me, it is no problem at all. I would immediately let it go as is. Okay. Yeah, I mean, what did the AAB say? They were fine with the request and they didn't make any conditions. Yeah, no, I wouldn't either. Okay, okay. So I don't think the board needs to make any action or motions, but we can just say the board is fine with requests. All right. And let me go back down to the agenda. Maury, why don't you say the board concurs with the decision of MAAB? With the decision made by MAAB, all right. All right, thank you. So give me one second. So next on the agenda is the general public comment period. And I don't, no one is in the public is intending, so we can just move right along. Okay. Old business, the first item is the Parmaray Village Intersection Project. Yeah. And so if memory serves me, they, the town council will be reviewing that at next Monday's meeting, which is Monday, September the 27th. Yeah. And so I would suggest if folks are interested in hearing what the 25% design is for the Parmaray Village Center Intersection Project, they should attend the meeting. I can go to the calendar right now and see if this item has been added to the agenda already. It looks like it hasn't been, but, well, actually hold on one second. Town council. No, it hasn't been added yet, but I can keep my eye on the agenda posting to see if the town posts the design. So I can email it to you if you would like a copy in advance. I was just thinking about that because we won't have access to any of the materials that the town council will have. We'll just get to work. Well, no, they do. So if you go to the town calendar listed on the website, all town council meetings, they upload all materials to that town meeting posting. And so you could look there. But I can certainly email this committee the materials if and when they do become available. And Myra or whoever, because my days get very bogged down at times if someone wants to send me a reminder email later this week that would be helpful. But I will put a little note in my calendar to check again. I mean, what I'm really interested in is did they have a consultant tell them a person, an expert on intersections for crossing intersections for blind people? Did they have somebody like that help them decide where the curb cut and what kind of curbing should be next to the curb cut and how they're gonna do it? I mean, I was hoping we would have a presentation for us. So what I suspect may happen and we shouldn't assume anything, but if you'll indulge me with my assumption is that the town council may refer this to the TSO for review and comment. And perhaps the TSO will then refer it to various boards such as the DAAC for comment. Okay. Or we could even, the TSO I think has much more relaxed rules about public participation than the town council does. The TSO usually often invites conversation about what is there, whereas it's more difficult to participate in a town council meeting. So that would be really good if we could know about when it's gonna go to the TSO. Sure, sure. Can we, can you send a note to Pat DeAngeles that asks her to request that it go to the TSO? Or? Sure. Yep, that's what this community would like. Well, what do people think? I just think we need more than just a presentation to the town council about what it's gonna be like. What does anybody think? It's a good idea. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a very good idea. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's good. Okay. So I can send it. And the thing is the TSO meets twice a month on Thursdays, I don't know, five, six, something like that. And so they meet more often than we do. And if it comes to us, it would hold them up by a whole month almost. So I don't know. And I also think Tracy will be a good guardian of what we need. And she's now the chairman of the TSO, right? To the TAC, Tracy. Oh, she's on the TAC, right. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do you want Pat to indicate to the town council? Who refers things to the TAC? Is that the TSO? It would be the TSO. All right, so I don't know how those things work as far as who is allowed to refer to what, but it's the TAC that we really want to work with on this, I think, because that's the Transportation Advisory Committee. Is that what it stands for? Yeah, Transportation Advisory Committee. Access or something, yeah, advisory. So they're the ones who are going to really care about it in a way that we would care about it. The other people just want to make sure that it's done as safely as somebody says it's safe, but they pick things apart at the TAC and that's, I think, what we want to be a part of. I don't know what anybody thinks about that, but they meet on the other Thursdays, I think, than the TSO. So just to clarify, obviously we have the DAAC is one committee and then the TAC is a different committee. You as individuals are welcome to attend TAC meetings, but we don't have sort of joint meetings among your board with other boards. But last month, Tracy came and she said she would like us to collaborate because we're often talking about the same issues. Sure, so if Tracy wants to attend meetings, these meetings, that's fine, or if you as individual residents want to attend TAC meetings, that's another way to communicate or collaborate ideas on various things. Well, do we want them to refer it to us? How do people feel about that? So, Myra, what you're suggesting is to have another set of eyes go over what they come up with that is among the 25% design process. Yeah. So, and maybe it should go to TAC first and also it should come to us at the same time. Yep. Okay. Right? Yep. Yeah. So maybe we can put it on next meeting's agenda or will it be too late? That's my question. That's why I wondered if we need to do something while we might have to have a special meeting if that's what they need by timing or we, I don't know, but if Pat DeAngelis were to bring it to the council that says that we want to be, I mean, what we originally requested was that we'd be involved. And so they didn't have to make us involved, but we would like them to make us involved. So if we can do that, that would be great. So if she could request that it be referred to the TAC and the DAAC, that would be great. Sure. Okay. Cool. All right, then we have one more thing. Oh, it had to do with the grant, right? Which one? You asked us last month, if we had other ideas for the MoD grant, yeah. Yeah, so I can give you some updates on that. Okay. So this is for the fifth school year 2022 mass office on disability grant. So I've been working with our facilities manager, Jeremiah LaPlant, closely, and our IT director, Sean Hannon, and the building commissioner, Rob Mora, and planner, senior planner, Nate Malloy and Dave Zomack about project ideas. So we are running some cost estimates for, on two projects. One would be for the front door to the bank center. It was identified in the transition plan that the automatic door opener, the one on the exterior is not working and the one in the interior is not working as well. So one is not working. Also, there's a big gap in the door at the top that perhaps small rodents could get inside. And there is some minor sloping issues at the landing outside. And so we're looking at, we're creating a budget to focus on that. And so the real premise would be, focus would be replacing the door openers. And because they're attached to the doorways, the doors would need to be replaced as part of it. And the landing in the front, it's not compliant by 1%. So visually it doesn't look that alarming, but since we would be replacing the door and the automatic door opener, we felt that that could be a nice added element to make it into compliance. And then seeing how much money would be left over, the grant is up to $250,000. We are exploring purchasing, installing assisted listening devices to rooms in the bang center. We have a audio consultants that the city of Northampton worked with last year. They're out of role and they will be meeting with me and Jeremiah and Sean Hannan tomorrow morning. We're gonna go to the bang center and look at the five rooms of interest and see. They have different audio systems, assisted listening systems, that they install, one being a looped system and the other being a FM system. And the long and short of it is that these different systems, while they do have a cost difference, picking the which system that could be used is really based on the configuration of the rooms themselves and the types of uses that are in activities that occur in those rooms. And so there's a variety of factors to consider. And so, yeah, so we'll be looking at those rooms tomorrow for looking at the room in which system would make most sense and then asking the consultant to provide a cost estimate and then that's when we can really hone on what will be truly in the application. And so that is due October the 8th, I believe. And if the assisted listening devices, if all five rooms are incorporated in this application, the town is interested in adding it to the capital budget for next year. So this will be helpful. If not for this grant, it'll be for the near future to install them as there's been so many seniors in particular that have spoken about the sound in those rooms and how the distortion of the sound in those rooms and the echoing is really problematic. So that will be of interest for the town to rectify. I have a question. Are they still thinking about building a senior center on University Drive or have they abandoned that? I've never heard of that proposal. Did anybody hear about that? That they wanted to build a senior center? I've never heard about that. No? Do you have to get on a bus to go to that? Well, if they're gonna continue to use the banks as the place where the senior center does all of its activities, this is really important to do. Yeah, and there's a whole other amount of activities that happen there. Including the senior services. So it will have a big impact for many, many of our residents and Amherst. And speaking of, yeah, and maybe Elise is, oh, actually I don't think the ramp is usable yet, but the town will install the new ramp connecting the bank center down to the Clark House. And the construction has been completed. I believe the fence is still up, so you can't use the ramp because they're waiting for the contractor to paint the railings. So once it's completed. If you want me to send pictures, I can do that because my window faces that whole thing. Oh, oh nice, yeah, sure, send them. We're hoping to see if I can snap a couple of pictures if I can get close enough and send you pictures and you can forward them. Oh, great, that would be lovely. I see they're still working on it, yeah. Yeah, it's just sort of these final touches. And the town hopes to have a ribbon cutting and then in the near future, like in the next couple of weeks, and I can certainly forward that information on to everyone if you would like to attend or read about it, so. That's cool. Yeah. So does that walkway go around to the front of the building as well or just to the back, just to the back? No, it connects, so it connects from the behind the bank center and connects to the existing sidewalk on the front side of the bank center. Oh, cool. Yeah. Oh, great. Colleen, a thought came to my mind, maybe the town should look into signage too, like this ramp that they're going, doing by banks for Musanti Center, wouldn't there be, it wouldn't that be nice if there's a nice welcome to Musanti Center and what it provides or that kind of a thing. And that's the town of functions. I like that. Yeah, that's a really good suggestion. Actually, so Jeremiah LaPlante, our facilities manager reached out to me about the Musanti Health Center and how they would like to improve their signage both for inside the building and outside of the building. And because they feel that, maybe sometimes people don't know which entrance is theirs and all that. So that's a really good suggestion. And we would, you know, if, you know, when that comes along, if and when, you know, probably that might take some time. We, the town would certainly love to hear your comments and feedback. Does the town have an official color like Emerson College does? Yeah. I think so. I should know. I believe it does. I believe it's like a maroon color. Oh, because of UMass. No, I don't think it's just the color of the town. It doesn't, it's not connected with UMass. It's the high school color. Yeah, I did not know that. Yeah, but anyway. Maroon and white. Oh, for signage, that would work. Yeah, as long as it's bright and not brown. It would have to be a bright maroon, not a brown maroon. Right? Yeah, it would have to be more like a cranberry. Yeah. Yeah, so that you would see the sign. If it's like brown, you wouldn't necessarily see the sign. Right? It'll fade. Yeah, it'll fade in. Yeah. Okay, well, that's cool. It's a good idea. Also, like for example, the accessible entrance for the town hall, you know, it's not at the main entrance. So wouldn't that be nice if there's nice signs that lead you to the accessible entrance too? Yes, yep. Yes, no, very important. So the doorway to the Musanti Health Center, for instance, that is fully accessible. Yeah. And so is the front entrance to the bank center that's fully accessible? And so that would be important to look to see if, you know, is there a ADA symbol? I'm not sure actually at this moment if there is. There probably is, but yeah. I think there's a sign on the wall at the town hall with a little wheelchairs symbol. There is, yep. But it's, you don't notice it until you're right there. So a better signage would be make it easier. Yeah. Aha, so that's another project for next year for grants is. It has to be a big signage. Yeah. There is a sign on the main street entrance to town hall that has a ADA symbol and it has an arrow and it says, you know, arrow towards Main Street entrance. It says like ADA door entrance on Main Street. And then there is an ADA symbol at the actual Main Street sign doorway. Okay. All right, are there any, we don't have any other items, right? Meaning minutes? Oh yeah, right, we do. I have a quick correction to the minutes. Okay. My last name is Dickson, it is Darren. So it could be changed. I noticed that. I noticed that too. Oh, we're sisters. That's right. Sorry. Sorry, love that. Any other changes to the minutes? Did I look very nice? Motion to approve the minutes? I move we improved them. We approved the minutes. I said we did change. You're right. We did change. Right. Oh, with the change, yes. Yeah. Yes, I second that. Okay, vote on the minutes. Elise? Yes. Marty? In favor. Tori? Yes. Sarin? Yes. And me? Yes. Great. Good to see everyone. I have a one o'clock, another Zoom meeting. This is great. And then you have one at 330, what a fun day. Marty, did you have something quick? Yeah, I wondered if you had a chance to talk to the building inspector about access through the outdoor seating areas. Yes, so I did speak to the building inspectors about that and to the assistant town manager and so outdoor dining will end in November and the building inspector did go out and take a look and said that could be improved out there. And so if outdoor dining does return back in the spring, they are going to look at what improvements could be provided perhaps if where Amherst coffee is, maybe where the sidewalk is, they could have seating, sidewalk, if there's enough width for a little seating area, sidewalk that would be ADA would be the accessible route and then perhaps look into having a platform to have more seating if needed. So that is something that they want to rectify for the spring and perhaps future years. So thank you for bringing that to the town's attention. What about that thing blocking the sidewalk in that coffee place on Amity Street? So it's completely impeding, you know, yeah, they have this ballard for seating or whatever like other streets, but then people have to walk on that and get back on the sidewalk. Yeah, so I don't like that. Yeah, no, again, thank you for bringing it to our attention and I think because there's just one more month, please. Yeah, I hear you. One more month is that that's not okay. I have to use that every week. I use that every week and it's really a pain in the ass and it's a turn off. So that's just my opinion. It makes me really angry. They had that change and then they had it barricade. I don't like being barricaded when I have to get somewhere so that I have to reroute. You know, I don't think that's okay, but that's just my opinion. So thank you for letting me vent. No, thank you. No, that's your opinion and well, fortunately under the code, there is no temporary. Situation, there is no really way for temporary. There's no 10 days. There's no month. There's no nothing. They should have gone up in first place. So there's five more weeks until November and they could fix it and they should fix it. They could. I need to sign off. Good to see you. Okay, see you, Tori. Bye, Tori. Bye, Tori. Bye. I should talk to you. Also, at some point, Maureen, it would be good for the next meeting if we could get a schedule for investigation and improvement to the accessible pedestrian signals. Yes. Honey topic keeps coming back, keeps giving. All right. Well, thanks everyone.