 Welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger, and it's really a pleasure to be here with you. And I wanna thank first off Dr. Dane here in Access Consciousness for being the awesome supporters that they are of the show. Thanks for sponsoring it. And as sponsors, feels incumbent on me to let you know what an amazing organization they are. If you're ready for some pretty deep healing, you like energy work, check out accessconsciousness.com as well as Dr. Dane, D-A-I-N here, H-E-E-R.com. And I would ask all of you because you write to me and I know how much you enjoy the guests and the shows and the information. Just take a moment right now to subscribe so this can come right in your inbox whenever the new shows come out. And also leave us a five star review. It's very helpful by the way to podcasters and radio people because you help other people who love this conversation to find it really quickly and to be encouraged to tune in. So go ahead. There's so many places and spaces where dear to dream is. I won't even name. I think we're up to 50 syndicated stations but let me go through some of the just top bananas here. Huh, I'm gonna start with Apple. I had to, Banana Apple. So Apple and Google Podcasts, Spreaker, Stitcher, YouTube, BBS Radio, Player FM, Blueberry, iHeart Radio and more. You can Google us and we just, I think we just also got picked up by Himalaya and Cast Box and it's never ending and we're grateful, grateful that people love this message so much. So this is Dear to Dream and I do feature fascinating leaders who have created major goals and really this is the number one transformation conversation. That's what the whole idea of the show is to support you in creating your dreams. And I always wonder what would you do if you couldn't fail? And what would it take for you to feel completely bold and free to go after what it is you dare to dream and created into your reality? You can become part of the Dare to Dream podcast team. You can go to patreon.com slash dare to dream and you can donate to keep the sustainability of the show going. It helps with all the business aspects and the many behind the scenes that it takes to keep this show going. I have been on air over 12 years so it's a machine by now and if you'd like to help this cog move along really gracefully I invite you to do so for a dollar, price of a cup of coffee whatever suits you we are so grateful. Grateful for your love and your commitment and your support go to patreon.com slash dare to dream. And I'm curious what would you do if you could overcome a lifetime of issues and awaken to your highest potential? I know what I do. What if a luxurious all-inclusive resort in Costa Rica existed where you can heal where you can awaken to your soul's purpose? Would you book that trip right now? Probably and if not hopefully this conversation might change your mind because I booked this trip. I haven't gone yet but we're here to have our first of many conversations with the people from Rivnia. And here today is Dr. Jeff McNary. He's the chief medical officer at Rivnia Life Advancement Center in Costa Rica. He's worked in the medical field and some of his specialties have been around addictions and trauma, acute psychiatric conditions. He previously was an administrative director right here, passages Malibu, a well-known drug and alcohol rehab facility. He's also managed to work within various arenas at the UCLA Medical Center, Department of Health in Hawaii and conducted therapy in psychiatric hospitals as well as a variety of outpatient settings. Dr. Jeff is committed to bringing the ancient healing tool of plant medicine to the Western world in a manner that is safe, regulated and extremely effective. And the Rivnia website, we'll say it again throughout the show, is Rivnia.com, it's R-Y-T-H-M-I-A.com. Dr. Jeff, welcome to Dearly Dream. It's so great to have you. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you and explain what the heck we're doing down here in Costa Rica. Yeah, you're talking to a complete virgin, first off, to plant medicine. And second, somebody who, when it came into my sphere of awareness, I became, I like to say obsessed, I became a plant stalker, right? I had to. It was calling, it was calling you before you've even done it yet, which was something we see quite often actually. Talk about that, really. Yeah, it's really weird. Like some people, even when they book their stay and maybe they're coming in three months or six months, the medicine already starts to work with them energetically. We've noticed this and all the guests report that this is what happens for them. So there's certain things that are calling them energetically. It's a healing modality. It's from the earth. So we'll get into that, of course, but it's something that we've noticed that it's a calling for people to do this. 100%. Universe was saying, this is for you. We understand your thought. We understand the feeling and the desire. And we're gonna put a lot of signs in your place. We came down from a hiking trip. In the middle of Southern California to a park with a parking lot. And ostensibly, it should have been people sitting there having lunch or playing chess. And what I found was a plan ceremony. In the middle, yes, a public skokal. And I'm like, this is for me, this is for me. And I shared with you before we started knowing I was gonna do this and talk about this on air. I did a lot of research to make sure legal, am I okay? What could come back to me? And not only did I find there's tons of information about ayahuasca and San Pedro out there, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, it's huge. I even went to one of the places and I'm gonna keep them anonymous. And I shared, I'm gonna do this as a host. Is this okay? And they said, not only is it okay, but we're thinking about doing it too. I saw a friend of mine, Natalie, led well post on Facebook. Boom. And with me, I'm like, this is banana ramma. I'm so excited. So you're right, it's certainly called to me. And let's talk a little bit. You said it's of the earth. It's a living organism. What does that mean to you when you say that? You know, it's like these days, society is really trying hard to pull us away from ourselves and have us be unplugged and dissociated. Cause if you're not connected to yourself, then you can be controlled, manipulated, you can consume and there's just a lot of sort of negatives about not being connected. So plants and nature is the ultimate connection to the world and to us. And I think what's happened over the last couple of several hundred years is that humans have unplugged from nature and we've seen this manifest in so many ways with the way that we're treating the planet and pollution and war and all kinds of distress, emotional problems and the plants, in my opinion, are starting to kind of reach out to us and have us reconnect with them. And in that effort, it'll just heal the world and just heal ourselves. So they're working synergetically with us. That is so profound actually. That like just totally shifted my point of view. I really appreciate that. And what a lovely gift, right? That the plants reach out to us at a time when we really need that connection. That's right. And so I'm fascinated because here you are and it's really obvious from all the research I did, you are in it. Like you are very much a part of Rhythmia. You're, this is your life. This is a mission for you. And yet you come from a place that was more Western normal work with people who have some very specific issues. So I'm curious with the 25 years that you had previously around healing and happiness and getting through things to the other side. What was your sense of the Western healing for really permanent? You know, since I'm in like the mental health field and I'm working with people that have trauma and addiction and anxiety and depression and suicidal histories and all this kind of really acute stuff is that the Western medical model is not really good at helping those kind of people. I think the Western model is good for a lot of things especially, you know, severe trauma like physical trauma. Like if I get into a car accident, I definitely want to be in a Western technological, you know, hospital room. But if I have some sort of addiction or mental health issue, the Western model is not really good about resolving those things. They don't teach us the tools on how to heal ourselves. They don't, a lot of people just get put on meds. I saw like a revolving door of psychiatric inpatient and outpatient care. It was just ongoing. And a lot of the people I worked with never got better. They actually got worse in the Western system I was working in for so long. Oh, how frustrating. Especially when you're dedicated to people getting well. And so what was the transition then for you? Here you are really dedicating yourself working with people seeing themselves actually getting worse. How did you transition or even find Rhythmia? How did you find plant medicine? Well, I was running that rehab you mentioned in Malibu called Passages. And I was the director of the facility. So I wasn't working with patients at the time but I was just supervising the staff. I would oversee the patients. And this one guy came in, Gerard Powell, who's actually our CEO now of Rhythmia. And he came in and he was just an absolute wreck. I mean, he was so out there. I mean, he had a demoral addiction, alcohol, cocaine. He had a womanizing issue. He was miserable. He was just multimillionaire who was just not happy with life. And he was suicidal. And I always did like the intake assessments with the new guests at the rehab. And when I met with him to decide who his treatment team would be, I didn't wanna turn him over to my therapist staff because he would have just eaten them alive. He was that hardcore. And I said, all right, I'm gonna take one for the team. I'm just gonna work with this guy. He's still gonna have a regular treatment team of therapists and master's level people and doctor level people. But I'm gonna focus on him myself to help contain him. Because I just see that he really needs a lot of care. So for the next 60 days, I met with him every day and just helped him get focused. And basically he resolved some of his issues, especially with demoral, he stopped doing that. And after he left passages, I continued to work with him later for about five years in just one-on-one. And he was not getting any better. He was still womanizing and fighting all the time. He was this violent guy. You know, in Malibu, it's kind of weird if you go to Nobu and get into a fight. It's not that normal, right? But that's what was happening for him. Also, you know, club Havana, Havana Cafe, same, fighting. And so he was kind of at the end of his rope. And I was seeing this guy five, six hours a day for five years. And it was just, I was stressed out because I didn't know what the heck to do. I was trying all the things I'd learned in school in my practice, you know, from before, like even a holistic stuff. Like I was just trying everything. And he got suicidal again. And I said, dude, we got to figure something out. And so a friend of mine that I knew at the passages place had a shaman friend. And I didn't know much about shamanism. I didn't know anything about plant medicine. And this person talked to Jerry and convinced him to go down to Costa Rica and try a plant as a way to help him get over his addiction and his all of his upsetness. And he was like, what do you think I should do? And I said, dude, I don't know. I don't know much about this, but try anything. Just go down. Just go. I was like, maybe I'll get a break for a week or two and you can just go do this, right? So Jerry came down to Costa Rica. It was this place up in the mountains. You know, it was like a house. It was really run down. It was super sketchy. But the plant medicine was like a miracle remedy for him. It changed his entire life in one day in like just one night ceremony. And the shaman was really, really good. But the surroundings were rough. You know, the place was not clean. And it was just kind of what you would get if you went out like into the jungle somewhere in Peru, just kind of like not the most comfortable environment. So Jerry came back to LA after his week long plant medicines thing. And I was like, not expecting much to tell you the truth. I was like, okay, whatever. I've seen so many problems with this guy over the years. And he was a changed person. He was completely different. He had been healed. And I found it really hard to believe because I'm like, how is 50 years of like chaotic lifestyle and madness gonna get resolved so fast? And I didn't really believe. I said, this will wear off, you know, like everything else had for him. And it wasn't wearing off. And several weeks were going by and his family was shifting how they viewed him, which was much more positive. And then he told me, he's like, dude, you're gonna go down and do it now so you can believe what's going on. I was like, what, dude, no way. I don't know much about this. Like, I'm working in psychology field. Like I have a medical background at UCLA. I have a master's of public health before I did my doctorate in psych. Like, what are you talking about, dude? Like, you know, this is just whatever. He convinced me. So I said, all right, I'll do it. So he came back down with me. And, you know, I figured that I was evolved enough to be a successful person and the family and I had kids. And, you know, but I wasn't expecting a whole lot. What happened for me completely changed my life. I saw that the persona I was presenting to the world was not my authentic self. I grew up in a part of Los Angeles at the time that was really rough and gangs and drugs and kind of like poverty everywhere. My family, I grew up on welfare, you know, with my family. And so we were like in this rough area of the northeast Los Angeles area near Highland Park. And I realized like in about an hour of doing this plant medicine that I had shown the world that I was this tough, mean, aggressive guy to stay safe as a kid. And it was a tool I used when I was young to protect myself, but I had carried this into my adult years and it was affecting my relationships. It was affecting my mental health, my wellbeing. I was always sort of like on edge of being angry. And I just had gotten used to it because it was just how I was my whole life. And I just thought it was, you know, I didn't really think it was an issue, but the plant medicine showed me that it wasn't really who I was and I was losing things. I was losing my relationships. I was not being happy or successful in the ways I could be. And so it just completely flipped everything for me and changed because, you know, you can be told things by somebody, but if you don't feel it, it doesn't resonate. It doesn't really connect with you. So this really resonated with me. And Jerry and I, after this, and I was totally on board, I said, we're like, do we got to have a place that's legal, that's medically licensed, that's safe, that has clinicians and therapists and doctors and nurses, but also has shamans and holistic healers and energy workers. And we want to do this. So from that moment, we started looking in Costa Rica for places and in about six months we had found one and Jerry bought it and I moved here immediately and started working on the license with the government Costa Rican Ministry of Health. That's how that all started. That's huge. When you say that the plant showed you these things, right, completely changed you, what does that mean? So for somebody who has not drunk the brew, so to speak, what does that mean? I think I understand it manifests differently for everybody but what does a plant showing you these things exactly mean? Well, everybody's a little different. Some people can have, when they drink the ayahuasca, they can have visions. Some people can, if they close their eyes, they just have all this sort of clarity, this sort of like awareness comes to them and they don't maybe see anything. Some people purge and there's a lot of different ways to purge, it's not just throwing up. I like my favorite purging way is just yawning. That's the way I prefer that purge but there's all these different ways your body is clearing out toxins and you're healing yourself. And so what happens is the active ingredient in ayahuasca is DMT, dimethyltryptamine. That is already in our bodies and there's different theories as to what DMT is for us as humans because it's not all living things. Mammals and plants and humans, we all have it. And there's some theories that, what I believe DMT is for, it's our connection, it's our intuition, it's our sort of unity with the universe and with ourselves. It's the way that we relate to things in a sort of energetic sense. So if you take some extra DMT from the plant world, what happens is you're enmeshing and assimilating into sort of the mother earth at that moment because your own DMT is there and the plant DMT is there and it's working on you to help you just really get plugged into who you are as a person. It's really amazing stuff. Wow. Well, Jerry has a book out called Shit the Moon Said, which is hilarious and amazing. And so it's not so that everybody meets a moon. It's not so that everybody meets a snake or a goddess or these mythological archetypical kind of character don't reveal themselves for everybody. Don't just have a very indigenous trip, if you will. Exactly. And for me, I was able to sort of see my childhood and kind of interact in my neighborhood when I was a kid. So my sort of adult self was there present with my childhood self and I was able to talk to myself as a kid. And the way I frame it in the psychological world I was doing inner child work like really deeply because I was just present with my child self. And so that was what I saw but I don't usually see a bunch of stuff all the time. I just have a lot of clarity. I have a lot of peace. If I have a decision I need to make the plant medicine helps me make the right decision because I'm just plugged in completely to me. I'm not distracted by just the world's sort of agenda. And it just really helps you get a line. We're gonna come back in just a minute and talk a little deeper about ayahuasca. Some of the things that Dr. Jeff can tell us that maybe somebody else wouldn't know to say that our myths and some things that could actually create the best possible experience for those who are fascinated and wanna know a little bit more. So exclusively for the Dare to Dream listeners only I have a really unique deal that I have made with Thinkific just for you. And this is a place where you can create, you can market and you can sell your own online courses. My courses are all there and they're doing really well. So if you're an entrepreneur, a small business person or even have a hobby on the side, if you wanna set up a way that you can make money and also have people interact with what you put out in the world, it is terrific. It is Thinkific's powerful all in one platform and it makes it very easy to share your knowledge to grow your business. And that could be whether you have 10 students or 10 million. Thinkific gives you the easiest possible technology and support in the business. Go to thnk.cc slash deb. The reason why you go to thnk.cc slash deb is because we are giving you three months free, three month free business platform. So you can get kickstarted, you could start making money. And once you get paying on the fourth month they give you a really special deal. It's so inexpensive and it is so worth it and so professional and easy. Again, the exclusive deal of three free months is at thnk.cc slash deb. If you're tuning in after we started, this is Debbie Daschinger, who dared a dream and I'm interviewing Dr. Jeff McNary. And again, you can go to rhythmia.com. So I think what I wanna start before the best practices and the things to watch out for is if you don't mind to explain to people what exactly is ayahuasca and how is it delineated from other types of plants that one might use in order to facilitate some kind of intergrowth? So ayahuasca is actually a blend of two plants and one of them is a vine and they call that the ayahuasca vine. And that vine is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. So in the Western world we know those as MAOIs. And those are in a lot of pharmaceuticals or MAOI based. What MAOIs do is especially with ayahuasca is it turns off the stomach enzymes so that you can digest the DMT. So the DMT comes from a regional plant. So if you're in Columbia or Hawaii or Peru or Costa Rica, the highest content DMT plant is gonna be different. So we have a regional plant that we use and those two plants, the vine and the DMT plant get reduced down and extracted into like a drink. And it's real earthy tasting and it's kind of brownish and it's, you know, you don't drink a whole big giant thing. It's just like a little glass and you drink that and then the MAOIs turn off the stomach enzymes and the DMT gets absorbed in the stomach and then you start to have your experience. And again, like I said, everybody's a little different about how that- Like this, like you drink it and you come on or is there a period of time? It's usually about 30 to 40 minutes you're in the zone. Yeah, and again, some people, it's right away quick but most people are about 30, 40 minutes. Okay. And then there's different types of plant medicine, right? I don't know how you offer there but I know at least also of San Pedro. Well, we used to offer San Pedro here, we're licensed to do it. The reason why we pulled it out is because it's a great plant medicine and it's very complimentary to ayahuasca but we have a program during the daytime with classes and integration lectures and people get body work done and there's all this different stuff and San Pedro is a very long duration plant medicine. It lasts about 12 hours. So what we were used to do is have ayahuasca in the evening and then in the morning, people come back up and have that but then they wouldn't be able to attend any classes. So we've found the best success, at least for our program by just sticking to the ayahuasca and we have four of those ceremonies a week, Monday through Thursday. Okay, so here I am a newbie. Super excited, clearly called to do this. Also, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, right? Yeah. You don't know what you don't know. Correct. Yet, I've always had a propensity for bringing it. I don't love that life can change like that. That sets me on fire. I think it's actually my number one value in life and there's still that, the nervousness. Yeah. So what are some myths that people like myself should be aware of that just are not accurate about doing ayahuasca? It's not gonna make you crazy. That's one of the number one worries that people have but I'm gonna click into some realm and never return. The good news is that the DMT in ayahuasca has a half life of about two to four hours. So it's real quick. And another thing that we do hear it with me is we give dosings throughout the evening. So you start off at about two ounces and you have every hour and a half the opportunity to drink more. So in a night, you can ease into it. So it's not like you're just getting rocked right off the bat. Once people get familiar with the medicine and they're seeing what kind of dose works for them, they can start off with a little more. Sometimes people are very sensitive and then they need a little less. So we can dose people throughout the evening and that really helps with the anxiety because then people can kind of, have a little bit more familiarity going into the space. So that's really good. That's one of the main things that people like about Rhythmia is the way we do that. I love that you can modulate it. That seems very safe. And I imagine that some people are more sensitive also than others. Definitely. So it's good to go gradually and slow. And you've mentioned a couple of times the toxicity coming out of the body and the purging. And I've certainly heard about the potential of purging from both ends. Like how radical is that? Well, the good news too about that is that you're not so out of it where you can't get up and walk to the bathroom, which we have six bathrooms within 20 feet of where you'll be staying during the plant medicine ceremony. And there's tons of staff in there. So there's a lot of help and a lot of supervision. We have all kinds of medical staff all around the facility, making sure everybody's cool. And they have actually the most boring job ever because everybody's fine. We've never even used a lot of the medical care that we have because of our license we have to have. And we don't even hardly use it. So that's another good thing. People feel that they're gonna have an accident and by going to the bathroom, like not getting up, that's another, that happens once in a rare occasion. But most people are with it enough, they can get up and they still have, they still know where they are in other words. That's interesting. Okay, this is great. I'm so glad we're talking. Yeah. And the things that one might cultivate in order to set themselves up for the best possible ayahuasca ceremony and experience both before the actual ceremony and during it. What would you recommend? So there's a shamanic sort of belief system that it's a way to prepare for the ayahuasca. It's called the dieta. And dieta to us that grew up in Los Angeles means a diet, right? So that's not only what that means in the shamanic world of ayahuasca. What it means is a way to eat that's clean and healthy and just kind of simple. But it's also a way of living and it's a way of preparing yourself to have the best experience. So people need to be off of their meds. There's certain waiting periods for meds. If they're on SSRIs, need 30 days off, they have to work with their physician on how to taper and get off of them if it's appropriate for them to be off of. Also, when the body's clean and the body's open, ready to receive the plant medicine, it works better. It's more effective. And we can have mental blocks and we can be resistant to the plant medicine and people are sometimes real, I'm a tourist, right? So I'm real stubborn. So, but if I'm open physically and I'm open emotionally, the plant medicine is just gonna do what it needs to do. It's gonna help me have that awareness that I'm seeking and get my intentions met, right? So that's kind of like the preparation. It's called the dieta. But what's the deal with sex? Like, you know? Yeah, yeah, I get that question a lot actually. I had a couple here the other day and a married couple and they're like, do we have to follow that here? I said, look, it's up to the person, right? It's always up to the individual. But again, so anything that can be distracting away from oneself, even stuff that's healthy and normal and part of life, if you take that time to prepare yourself physically and emotionally, it's gonna go better. So sometimes for some, not for everybody, but for some sex can be a distraction technique. Again, it's not for everybody that. And not at all times the same, right? It varies. But anything that kind of pulls you away from you, we wanna be able to focus and get it back in check so that you're totally plugged in and ready to receive the medicine. Wow, well, that was a really big point because there are some who come to you, probably more people come to you as single, solo, doing their own experience. For those, like the couple you just mentioned or myself, I am coming with my partner, is there anything you would say that could create a really good experience when you're co-creating, so to speak? However, you really want your own biggest, baddest, most wonderful experience. Yeah, good question. I get that a lot as well. And so what I've noticed here at Rhythmia, that's the best thing to do. If people are really nervous and they come as a couple, it's okay to be next to each other in the ceremony the first night, just to give each other some peace of mind and everything's okay. And then we recommend that after that, they don't sit right next to each other during the following ceremonies, they have their space so that you're not, normally you'd be a little concerned or worried about your partner, but this gives you that freedom to have that open space. And what I tell couples to do during the daytime, is I say keep it simple, keep it to news, weather, and sports. Don't dive into your relationship issues. Don't start going all this because you gotta focus on you, you gotta heal you. Now that stuff will, the couple's issues will unfold naturally as they need to. But when you're at Rhythmia, it's really key to just keep it simple. Now if couples have issues that they're severe, I'll work with the couples, I'll have sessions with the couples, and then we'll keep it to that framework. We'll just leave it in the office. Then when they go to the pool and they go to lunch, news, weather, and sports is what I tell them. And when you talk about the awareness of other people, so I've looked at folks who are listening, watching, go to the Rhythmia.com website. You could see pictures of this gorgeous facility, the yoga classes, some of the massages and the work, and the various things that are possible, the pools and so forth. And so I also have seen pictures of the circles, right? And I find it fascinating that everybody's got their own little mat area where they can have their experience. And yet I understand you can be cognizant of what's happening to others, although you don't really understand until there's a time when everybody can share. How prevalent is that, or how aware is somebody who has drunk the ayahuasca that others can hear what's going on, even though they may have no clue what's actually happening? Well, you know, we get a lot of impasse down here. I'm sure you're one. I can tell you're one. And that's a beautiful thing. Being an impasse is a wonderful thing if you know you're an impasse, because then you understand what's going on energetically for you with other people. But if you're an impasse and you really don't know it, you just feel bombarded and overwhelmed and you get flooded with others' emotions and others' vibes. So what I do is when I do the intake with the guests, I'm kind of like trying to suss out, like who's potentially an impasse, as well as various other things. And if I notice that they are, because they're not trying to project on to me any of their own emotions, they're trying to pull them out of me to feel, right? That's what they're doing. I can sense that. So I'll give them some pointers on how to go into the ceremonies and not get overwhelmed with everybody else's vibe and to still kind of just be present with themselves. So that's an important thing for, you know, a lot of our guests are impasse, because they're usually people that need some healing and are open to energy and have sort of a holistic minded sort of way of looking at life. So that's real common here. Very interesting. Never would have considered it and I can see how poignant that is. And that also leads me to think about visibility because it's something I do out in the world, you know, everything from red carpet events, interviews and so forth to teaching people how to be visible, as well as facilitating them to be interviewed and write their books and go to bestseller. And so in my space, that's very interesting about doing something like this publicly and being visible. Like I can feel it as you're talking. Sure, absolutely. That's a concern for sure. And something to think about and there's a way to prepare for that. You know, and what's happening with the staff here is I train the staff constantly and we review how every single guest is doing. We have meetings on Wednesday, there's staff meetings. We go over every single guest, you know, like where are they at with their process? What are they struggling with? What are they, what intentions have they already met? You know, how's it going with their couple if they're bringing up their spouse or friend or whatever, we get really into it. So the staff are really good about helping redirect people that are kind of like either not focusing on themselves or they're trying to kind of avoid the process by distracting themselves with other people. Interesting. I know this has to be so because Rhythmia attracts some very high level influencers. Definitely they're celebrities. I have to say this visibility stuff must really pop up around the celebrities who come there. It does. And what happens is, you know, the celebs and the high profile people, oftentimes, if this is their first plan medicine experience which it usually is, like before their first ceremony, they're a little nervous and they're sort of hesitant because they don't know how it's gonna be for them in the space with everybody. But what ends up happening is after the first night of the ceremonies, they drink the ayahuasca, everybody is on this same sort of plane where it's like all good and the celebs and the people that have like this kind of public persona are able to kind of like relax that a bit and the guests that are here that are not the celeb people or whatever, they're totally in the same community. So like everybody just blends really well together. And it's a nice thing to see because, you know, back in LA when I was running passages and other things, you know, the celebs and the high profile people, it's like you kind of have to treat them in a sense a different way because of the pressure that they have in the public eye. And it's valid to help them kind of have their own sort of private experience, you know, but we haven't had that issue here even with all the high profile people that we get through the gates here. I've been blown away when I was doing research by some people, I don't want to say their names because I don't know that I have the permission, but I will say they're out there. They're all over your website. They're on YouTube. There's their name at the bottom. You'd know their face anyway. And they're speaking very profoundly about the experience they had and very openly and vulnerably that they were blown away by the transformation. They didn't expect anything like that. And so there's that aspect, but there's also the aspect of, you know, doing research and seeing some names. Oh gosh, I want to name them so badly. You know, if they did a testimonial and they're on our website, you can name them. It's okay. Yeah, so like Terrence Howard. Uh-huh, yeah. And I'm such a huge fan. He's such a brilliant actor. And to see, like feel him, to be honest with you. It was way beyond just seeing Terrence Howard for me, especially living in LA, but to feel him as a human talking about, hey, I did this thing and I, you know, I went in and expected whatever. And it's like, I am a different human being. You got his childhood back. You got his childhood back. That's his quote that he says. Yeah, it blew him away. And he was a great, he was a great dude to have here. We had Bobby Brown here, Kelly Slater. We had a bunch of people here that have this persona in the world. And a lot of those people, as we know, feel very isolated in their life because they can't go out in public as much. They get bombarded, they don't have peace. So doing this process with us, we respect everybody's privacy that's here. They get what they came for. It's amazing. And then there's somebody like Scott Disick, who is a Kardashian ex-husband. And everybody knows because of the tabloids, in and out, in and out, in and out of rehab. I mean, womanizing like a lot of issues. And he came to Rhythmia. And if there's a success story there, was he, is he free of his demons? Well, you know, the thing is, right, whenever, whenever somebody gets clarity in life and turns over a new leaf or gets healed, whether it's plant medicine or some other modality, they have to then use those tools in their life and that new awareness to continue the momentum. And it's not a magic pill that you just take everything's fine. They're still struggles in life and things that come up. So for, for anybody, you have to be able to incorporate what you learned. And when Scott was here, he learned a ton and he did really well. It was a beautiful experience for him. Now the pressures of life for everybody are different. And you know, everybody makes different decisions. So it's like, it just kind of unfolds how you want it to. But if you're, if you have resolve and you know that you don't want to go back to the old ways, this is the right sort of turning point for people is this, this program we offer here. So Dr. Jeff, what's the deal with addiction? I understand. I totally know and get 12 step programs. And I understand about sort of having that donor hole inside of us that's an emptiness and fill it with God and but a bit of, but there's, it's so prevalent, you know, and it can be really low grade. It can go under the radar, everything from consuming so much and you know, to a little bit higher up where people are eating too much or drinking too much or taking too much or sexing or gaming or all of that stuff. And then of course it can get really explosive and degrading. What is in your expertise, the underlying motivator, why people become addicts and really lose control in their lives like that? I believe there's a couple of key things and one of them is trauma. People that suffered trauma as kids or as adults and they don't have the coping mechanisms on how to process trauma will reach out for things that numb them or that distract them. And that's what leads to addiction for a lot of people. You know, the way I look at it is that addiction has sort of two components to it. There's the behavioral side and there's the substance chemical based side. So the beauty of plant medicine for addiction it resolves both of those things. So for example, you know, if I have a 10 year heroin addiction my neurochemistry is like totally screwed up and my opiate receptors are like they're minimal and everything's bad. So I have this physical craving for heroin that prevents me from getting clean and that's a medical biological side, a chemical side. Then I also have my triggers and my friends that use and my parents that are upsetting to me or whatever. And that's the behavioral side. And so what happens in the addiction world and the recovery world is that most things focus on the behavioral side. You gotta change your friends. You gotta change this way of, you gotta get a job. You gotta, you know, all this kind of stuff and all that is true and makes sense. But if I have a physical craving and I have a neurochemical issue that's propelling me to use I'm changing all the behaviors in the world won't do it because I'm still feeling that physical need to get that drug in me whether it's alcohol or heroin or whatever. So the beauty of plant medicine is it resets neurochemistry. It balances dopamine. It balances serotonin. It helps with all the hormone levels in the body and it gets us to a state of wellbeing and physical contentment that therefore I have a foothold to work on the behavioral stuff. And if I have clarity during plant medicine ceremonies and I have clarity about like why I have this trauma what it meant for me. It's unresolved. I can resolve it during a session. I can feel the pain of the past and let it move out and basically clear out my amygdala which is the part of the brain that stores our subconscious memories. I can clear that out, start fresh. I feel like a new person. I'm not triggered physically. I'm not triggered medically, biologically. And I'm not triggered behavioral anymore because now I resolved all this emotional baggage that was hindering my lifestyle and causing me to use and being at it. Is there like a rhythmia part two? So, somebody comes and they work out some of these like mage things that you're talking about. And they're like, it's really such a rebirth for them. And in the renaissance of them going back out into the world either they could be triggered as you were saying or maybe they've grown so much but they're ready for the next piece. They're ready to go even bigger. Is there another experience after this that's possible? Well, you know, we believe that there's three gifts, three awarenesses and three freedoms that you can get with plant medicine. And so like, let's say I come down here for a week and I realize a bunch of stuff about myself and I'm clear of trauma and I realize that I'm a good person and I make amends with people or whatever. And that would be the first sort of grouping of three things. Then if I come back in the future, I do plant medicine again, I can go deeper in that same process and I can keep getting stuff. Even there's some people that have reported that they feel they've rewritten their DNA which is like crazy because, you know, how the heck do you prove that, right? Without doing a bio genome scan, right? But there's this amazing healing that goes on when you're plugged into yourself. And so we also have an aftercare program that people can purchase on the way out that involves some counseling and involves a tincture that's legal in anywhere in the world. It's a homeopathic dose of ayahuasca and it has all the content of the thought leaders that come speak at us in our, they do workshops at Rhythmia every week. They have all the content, we film it and they get all of that to have as like a support system for them believing. And are you talking about the people like Dr. Michael Bernard Beckwith and- Exactly. Bruce Lipton, Graham Hancock, all the people that come here and speak. Every week we have somebody and some are very well known, some are not as known but they're all really amazing people. And you get, we film their classes, you know, we get their permission, we film it. We put that on the website that you have access to and you purchase the aftercare. So it's real helpful. Okay, I'm so glad I asked that question. That is, that makes a lot of sense to me to wanna continue that journey if you've had such a profound experience. Keep it going. And then for the shamans, what is their training like? How does one step into that role in such an effective way that they can lead a ceremony at that level and really help facilitate people to another world? Yeah, you know, that's a great one because I had no idea how to hire or even look for shaman. When I first came here, like, how do you do that? Like they're not on Craigslist. Like, you know, you can't just put out a website. You know, it's crazy. So we have this, this ayahuascaeto. His name is Taito Juanito. He's from Columbia. He's in a bloodline of ayahuascaetos on the Amazon basin. His grandfather was the guy that trained him and he's from the, there's a certain tribe down in the middle of the jungle. He's the guy that comes here four times a year and has a special week where he does the plant medicine sessions. He's trained and handpicked all of our shaman staff. So shaman is a word that's really interesting because really, I've only met two shaman in my lifetime. One is him and another is a guy from Africa from the Congo that was one of my first shamans. The rest of them, I would call plant medicine providers because they're shamans in training and they're learning how to do it. And some of them have decades of experience like the ones we have here and others are newer at it. And in order to serve medicine and actually hand it to the guest to drink, that takes a lot of training. You have to be really well versed in all this kind of stuff and the spiritual world and the healing shamanic world. And we have about 22 shamanic staff in that department and there's ones that lead and then there's ones that assist and there's ones that help and everybody's working together. So in order to help facilitate the guest process, it's really interesting because at first, a lot of them had never dealt with psychologists before or Western sort of medical people. And they just thought, oh, we don't know what we're talking about. But what I've seen is it's very similar. Like the work as a therapist is very, very similar to the work of a shaman. It has different terminology and different sort of maybe techniques, but it's about moving energy. It's about helping people plug into themselves. It's about people getting their own healing and then somebody there to support them. And so that's what's going on in the plant medicine sessions and also what's going on all day long in the classes and in the groups and the individual stuff that we do with everybody. Do you still do plant medicine? Yeah, I haven't done it in a while because I'm on call for all these ceremonies at night. I did it a lot at first. I didn't need it, I did it about 12 times for myself, like just for me to get healed. And then I did it a bunch more after that to try to test out the different blends of the ayahuasca so that it would be the most effective sort of protocol in the week of the four ceremonies. And if I have an issue coming up or I'm confused or I feel unplugged, I'll definitely do it again. But I'm an advocate for, if you get what you need and you're healed and you're trying your best to use the tools you learned, you don't need to do it again. Some people like to because they want to go deeper, but I'm all about just like making the change and moving forward with the tools you learned. Making the change and moving forward with the tools you've learned. And this is Dare to Dream, Dr. Jeff. So what do you next dare to dream? What are your future dreams and goals? We want to be able to make Rhythmia a replicable model that people all over the world can look at and use. And we don't have to own them or anything like that. We want plant medicine to be all over the world because this is really healing the world. And the beauty of it is it's quick. And the way I was trained in the Western model at UCLA and other grad schools I was in is if you have 20 years of addiction, you're an addict the rest of your life and you're always gonna battle it and you're just who you are. And if you've been traumatized for 10 years, you gotta have 20 years of therapy. I don't believe in that. I never actually did at the time. I believe in quick change to get healed and to be able to be plugged in and happy. So what I want is fast healing for people that need it. I don't have 20 years with addicts. I don't have 20 years with people that are suicidal. I don't have 20 years with the acute mentally ill. We have a short time to help them. And plant medicine is that remedy. Let's get people healed, fixed, confident in moving forward in a way that is beautiful for them and their families. You're in a service position, which means you give a lot. And it also means it's really important for you to receive, right? To allow and receive. What are the ways that you keep yourself grounded? Do you have a daily practice that you go to? What do you do? I surf every morning right out front of the beach here. That's my daily practice. How does that make you feel? Wonderful, because I grew up surfing in Southern California when I lived in Hawaii and surfing to me is not just about surfing or whatever, catching a wave. It's about connecting with the world, connecting with the ocean and being the salt in the water grounds me. And salt water is very healing for people and is for me. And I have a history of my family of ocean people and surfers and outrigger canoe paddlers. And that's just my tribe. And in Hawaii and Amakua is your spiritual ancestors and where their spirits go after they pass. In my family, it's the shark. And so my family, when they pass, they go into shark's bodies is the sort of the tradition. So my Amakua in Hawaii is the mono, which is the shark. And so I'm not afraid of sharks. I see a shark, I'm like, hey, what's up, uncle? How you doing? And what is your relationship like? So you've got, and people will hear later on when I've got Gerard, the owner and brandy, the owners of Rhythmia on, they'll hear their story because it's very unique. And you are surrounded with these people who you met originally to help to heal. And here you are now in business with them, creating great healing for others out of the planet. What is it like for all of you synergistically or relationship-wise working together, cohabitating together? What is that set up? It was a little weird for me at first, tell you the truth. It was not easy to transition from being the person who's like the therapist and then they're the patient. Then all of a sudden he's the CEO and I'm the CMO. It was really pretty weird, but because we care about each other so much and we've done this really cool work together. And you know what's funny is that when people think that in therapy, that it's just the patient that's receiving the healing or the shift. And I learned long ago, even when I was in grad school, I learned that it's not a one-way street. The therapist learns in changes and becomes who they are because of the people they work with. So I've learned just as much from Jerry as he's somewhat learned from me about life and how to be happy. I learned the same amount of stuff from him. So it's been really, really nice. It's been a blessing. It seems to me from the moment you told the story at the inception of this interview about how you met, that it was really meant to be this relationship. Because here you were originally a director who did not take on patients and this crazy guy comes in and the protocol is gonna be, I better take him on. But don't you feel at some level that was divine? I know it was absolute fact because there's no reason why I would normally do something like that. I was busy with running the place. I mean, it just makes no sense logically at the time to do that. But now I see how it all unfolds. And it's just crazy. When I look at my educational background, I was a medical anthropology undergrad studying Latin American ethnobotany. And I was 19 years old. I just thought it was, yeah, I just thought it was cool. Like I didn't really, what am I gonna do with that degree? Like, whatever. So then I went and got an MPH in public health at UCLA and I didn't know what I was gonna do with that either. But I learned how to license medical facilities. That was what my degree was. It was about licensing and health law and policy. And I still didn't know what I was gonna do with that. And then I got my doctorate and then I saw and then I worked with Jerry and then it all made sense. And so it's like the perfect sort of mesh. Meeting Jerry, working with him, my educational background, the people I've worked with, the patients I've seen, the most severe stuff inpatient. You name it, right? And so it all kind of just clicks. It's crazy to think about it really for me. Without a doubt. So clearly the universe has had enormous pause, right? Yeah. Navigating your life. And thankfully you didn't get too logical about it. You were following some kind of energy to end up in all these different places even if they didn't make sense. What would you like to say to people here at the end with all of that and with who you be just right now at this moment in time? You know, we're all concerned about the way society is going. And I try not to watch the news too much, but I will just connect with what's going on. And it's really upsetting, like what's going on worldwide in every country. It's really hard. And what I've learned with this process here at Rhythmia is that if we heal ourselves and we plug into who we are as people, we can have true empathy for others. And if I have empathy for somebody, that means I can feel what they're feeling. And why would I wanna feel sad, hurt, angry or anything? I don't wanna feel that in other people. I want other people to be happy and healthy. And I would never harm them or cause problems for them because I can feel their pain. So I don't want that. So that's how the world changes. You heal yourself, then you can connect and heal with others. And one by one, the dominoes fall and all of a sudden wars are over and anger is over and all this stuff that's screwing up the world ends. And we all come together like we're supposed to be and the plants are teaching us how to do this. We're there, we're united with the world again and we're happy and successful. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Dr. Jeff. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. This was amazing. I end today's show with this quote from Elliot Cowan. There is only one active ingredient in plant medicines, friendship. A plant spirit heals a patient as a favor to its friend in dreaming, the doctor. Next up on Dare to Dream Radio, I'm featuring Lee Harris who's a globally acclaimed energy intuitive and transformation guide. Lee works worldwide. He's a phenomenon and he offers teachings to help conscious and sensitive people heal and thrive. I'll be talking to Lee about his new book, Energy Speaks. Remember, subscribe to the Dare to Dream Radio and podcast show so you can hear this number one transformation conversation. And if you're listening and you'd like to see myself and the guest, go to youtube.com slash debbie dashinger. And remember the secret of success is having the courage to begin in the first place.