 I think the idea for the book really became powerful to me when I learned about the working conditions of stewardesses in the 60s and 70s. Before that, I think like many people, I thought about the golden age of travel as a very Don Draper and Mad Men scenario, you know, businessmen, you know, beautiful stewardesses serving them cocktails in first class maybe slicing roast beef, you know, like an extremely glamorous cosmopolitan sort of scenario. And then when I learned that the flip side of that was maybe the most sexist workplace in America, that these working conditions for women were so difficult, as Julie listed earlier. That's when I was like really hooked you know it was a story of the labor movement and the feminist movement to things that I spend a lot of time thinking about. And then to find out that the wins that the flight attendants scored the ones that I detail in my book the battles that they fought had like an lasting impact for all working women in America. And that's something that they hadn't gotten any credit for before I just thought that it was a story that I had to tell. I will say right in the introduction of the book. There is a phrase that they lost more often than they won. And that was a phrase that was great warning for reading the book, because it can be really frustrating when you hear what some of these women went through and I feel like they must have felt so powerless at times. It was an uphill battle. And as Julie pointed out, and as I detail in the book, the flight attendants took every possible tack to win rights as workers. They went to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and they filed stacks and stacks and stacks of complaints. They went to court they held hearings, they created, you know, stories in the press that journalists would latch on to. And at many, many turns that they were just pulled back in by by things the company would do by things even sometimes their union would do. It was just a real case of one step forward two steps back consistently. So when it comes to anything like, oh, you were fired at the eight when you turned 32 and when you finally managed overturn that rule the company would sneak in another rule, perhaps a weight limit. So, you know, if you were getting older, you gained a few pounds and you couldn't lose them up. Sorry, job is gone. So it was absolutely a story of many losses, but the fact that the flight attendants managed to make so many victories and that these victories had impact outside, you know, the airplane cabin that they had an impact on on all working women today for me is even more incredible when you consider the environment that that they were fighting in. And I think that has a lot of impact or a lot of resonance with what's happening, you know, today in our country where we're suffering a lot of losses at the moment, you know, we're, we're losing a lot, but I love to think about, you know, the differences that the women in my book were up against and the fact that they won through through sheer hard work and solidarity. It gives me hope. Sarah, if I can go to you. When now kind of mentions the landscape today that seems like a good spot for you to talk about what from Nels book or theme of losses versus wins what resonates with you in today's landscape for flight attendants and can you share some similarities with us from the history that still exists today in the world. Sure. I mean, reading Nels book is a little bit like reading your family history it is so familiar. I learned by doing I was hired at United Airlines in 1996 and, and frankly, I only applied for the job because flight attendants flight attendants unions had just beat back smoking in the workplace. I didn't have done it otherwise. Three years earlier, we finally beat back the wait restrictions and made it illegal for airlines to have to force us to get on a scale before we come to work. So these were all conditions that were laid out for me and someone described the contents of the United Airlines contracts did not put it in those terms, but talked about the pay and benefits and everything. That's what encouraged me to go do the job. So I, I learned very much by by getting involved in the union early on, and I should say my very first day on the job. I walked into the office and there was already an argument between the two senior flight attendants that I was going to be working with I was assigned to this very senior trip. The flight attendants have between 35 and 40 years seniority between them. So in 1996 think about when they started really in the core of what Nels is describing and what she just described and what they had been through. And they also had very raspy voices because they had been working through a period where they had secondhand smoke in their workplace the entire time, but they they had this fight with the supervisor, and they won. So they, but they realized that this may be a little jarring for this brand new flight attendant on our first day that there had been this conflict in the office, even before we started flying. So one of them pulled me aside, and in an attempt to help said to me. Now listen, management thinks of us as their wives or their mistresses, and in either case they hold us in contempt. Whoo. That's a lot to take in at 23 fresh out of company training. But which what she said next was comforting. She said, your only place of worth is with your fellow flying partners. And if we stick together you wear your union pin. There's nothing we can't accomplish. And so there was that there was that hook of hope for me, and also this message of solidarity that felt felt good and felt like something that I wanted to be a part of right away. And it wasn't until later, and actually until I became very much more involved in the union that I understood just how right she was about the level of contempt that was held for flight attendant spy management, a very sexist level of contempt. And all of the objectification that went on with flight attendants that I, I had to get involved in right away in my union work fighting fighting fighting every single day, just to be able to get to the table just to be able to get recognized and and understanding that the women who fought before me gave me this mentorship in that space to say that no one's going to give you a space at the table, we're going to do that together, we're always going to fight together. And we always had hope, because we had this women led union, this flight attendant only union which, which frankly is sort of anathema to the idea of the labor movement of one big union and all workers working together. And so it was these women who fought for a PFA, and also if a breaking away from male dominated unions in both cases, to have our own space, our own ability to fight forward and demand that flight attendants be heard and demand that are our careers And I really picked up right at the point where they were the people who came before me had turned what had been a job that was not only heavy discrimination, but objectified and used to sell airline tickets into a career. And we had to take it forward but absolutely I mean it was, it's always a slug to just get to the table get recognized fight for through all the discrimination that would say that your voice doesn't matter your cast aside your marginalized but we had hope and we had power, because women came together and and just demanded to get results. And shout out to Pat Gibbs, who is the number one heroine in the book. And I believe is watching right now. And thanks to Pat and all of her contemporaries who made it this possible for us to have this The other thing that I would say is thanks to all the women who launched the me to movement, because that was a moment where not only were we able to take the certification that we fought hard to win the right to have minimum staffing on the airplane so clearly planes cannot take off with pilots but they also cannot take off without without flight attendants. And so we fought for our place in this industry, but with the me to movement, it was a moment where we could actually talk about what it's really like on the job, what that sexism has been like, and we called out airline management and said it is time once and for all for you to denounce this industry sexist past to hold up flight attendants as safety professionals, and to declare that there's zero risk for this kind of behavior in the workplace. And I have to say that was a moment where for the first time we were actually able to really tell our stories and go beyond what I experienced on that first day on the job, where the flight attendant told me that no one was ever going to have our backs no one was ever going to listen to us or make space for us but we could do that together we could make space together. And suddenly this opened up for us to be really seen as leaders. And, and to move away and get respect in our own right for the work that we do. And so I think at this point, we fly to every corner of the earth when some people can only dream of crossing borders today. We have access more access to the public than almost anyone when something happens on the plane when there's a noise on the plane the public turns to us and looks to us for leadership. And I think that's a great metaphor for where we are actually in society and how we actually can tell the story of women today, and what it means to be working women who are flying from state to state, who when they touch down in certain states, they have different responsibilities today. And that's that's simply not acceptable. It's not acceptable that even before the decision on Dodd that when we land in this country, we step off a plane that doesn't recognize us in this country as equal. Done with that. So flight attendants have a responsibility today to show the rest of working people who are saying that they're very interested in being in a union but maybe don't see themselves there because they've always seen union members as someone with a hard hat tool built that we can actually show people that it's anyone who works, who can join a union, build that power in their workplace, take on capitalism and actually build an inclusive society that works in a democracy that is also a capitalism but with checks on it, because working people are able to hold that capital accountable and bring some of the profits back to all of us. I think flight attendants have that that leadership role right now that we can promote forward. And we have a tremendous responsibility to do that and we have a tremendous opportunity to do that. And we're going to be able to have even greater footing when Delta flight attendants join our union to just to capture that so the vision is isn't just, you know, like kind of insular insular airline thing like you when you when I hear you talk it's like it's it's everything it's everyone it's all the labor movements it's it's kind of society and culture. That's where you hope the role in the movement is going 100% Julie and just to take on the issue of health care. We spend three quarters of our time at the table fighting on for health care in our contracts. And just to hang on to what we negotiated decades ago. This is slipping away, further and further because for profit health care companies have a chokehold on that industry, and the only way that's going to change is if we organize in the 10s of millions right now, flight attendants have to lead on that. So I can't even take on the issues that my members care about if I'm not backing up Starbucks workers and Amazon workers and any worker who's looking for a union right now because we have to have the ability to tackle our management with these issues across the board, and then go with management with that capital to take on the for profit health care companies, because no individual company is willing to take on those for profit health care companies. But if we demand that as labor across the board, hold all of our companies accountable, and we do that together, we can actually win on that issue and that's a big issue that my members care about very much. So I can't even begin to take it on if I don't support other workers organizing right now. So, can you give us a little bit of background on exactly what Delta flight attendants are thinking about or working towards and tell us about the efforts you and your colleagues are putting your focus on to get there. We are, of course, working towards unionizing over 22,000 flight attendants currently across the country in several different phases. And I just wanted to give you all an idea of the scope of what we're doing. This will be one of the largest organizing efforts in modern labor and history. So it's a seems like an insurmountable task but we're ready to tackle it head on and some of the things that we're doing is we are we've got something that we call visibility where we sit in our flight attendant lounges, and we let people know that the other flight attendants are unionizing. And that's with 22,000 flight attendants it's hard to reach everyone of course so we're trying to make sure that we talk to each person, find out what's important to them, and it's not just about talking to them it's also about our space and getting over that fear of getting in trouble for unionizing that hey this is our right. This is our space, and we're here to do this, and also I'm speaking to something else that we've never done before being part of the conversation. We're getting the public involved. We're talking to other people in other unions and other workplaces that are unionizing like Starbucks we're finding so much solidarity across the labor movement and I think Sarah for that that is new to our campaign and it's just changed the way that everyone sees what we're doing every how everyone sees us that we're you know safety professionals that we're working hard towards something much like in the book. Women fought hard to be seen as not just sex objects are cocktail waitresses that were safety professionals that were workers that were part of this labor movement so talking to other workers across industries talking to the public talking to our passengers who are actually on who are saying hey you know go you guys you know what we hope you get your union because they see how hard we work, especially during the pandemic. When we were fighting for to have gloves and mask and to be able to wear them on the airplane. It wasn't just about our safety but we care about our passengers as well. If we unionize and take care of us we're able to take care of the passengers because that's absolutely want what we want to do. So yeah we're on the ground, we are working hard and just trying to bring awareness to our work group and the public and we value so much support that everyone's been giving us so. It's hard work but it's fun and we thank you guys for you know allowing us to speak and tell our story. You know Julie, I think that nails book is extraordinary in this moment for so many reasons I mean, I love it because of course directly related to the work that I do but I think it's so instructional for where we are in this moment because there are so many social issues to take on and groups that have been formed specifically to take on those social issues this is something that now addresses in the book. And but the power is in the unions and the lasting lock in and the ability to make improvements in laws, whether that's you know just a legally binding contract or a change in legislation that changes the overall rights for people or the benefits access to benefits and the enforcement of that contract and enforcement of those laws. We fought hard for example for whistleblower protection so that we can call out safety issues in the work. If you don't have a union to back you up as a worker when you are whistleblower, you may have those laws that protect you. But you may have to hire a private attorney and fight for many years because the the companies can retaliate against you and hope to just wait you out as a worker and and drown you out in legal bills. So if there's not a union there to protect that and protect all the gains that we've made, it can just get washed away. And what is described so perfectly in the book is the realization and the recognition of these activists who were feminists who were forward and against sexism, but who understood that the real power was taking on capital was taking on money and the corporate elite in a capitalist society, so that we can put them in check hold them accountable. And that's where our power lies to make real difference a real difference. And that's the connection that needs to be made for the public today. And it's something that flight attendants it's a message that flight attendants can give to the public and help them understand. No, this is how you lock in the gains this is how you have real power this is how you come together and actually make it count and make it stick. And it is so beautifully told but it's it's a fight that is never ending. And it continues on today. And if we organize in the 10s of millions right now, we can lock that in and lock in real changes and lock in civic engagement and and lock in our democracy. And that's why this book is so so instructional, of course for every flight attendant out there and we're actually going to buy a big bulk from Mel and make her arms sore from signing books, because this needs to get into hands of all of our activists and all of our staff and everyone. It's so instructional for anyone who wants to form a union today and why they should, and who, who those union members are. And the other thing that she calls out so well in the book is that flight attendants are a great ambassador for the labor movement, because we can find out of a lot of spaces that other people can never get into, and to be at tables easily. And, and we also people look to us for that leadership so we're already built in in a space to be able to share this message and to be able to show a different view of who union members are and how power is built with the small victories of piling up is that you. You don't stop after a loss, and then you don't stop after a when you just keep going and going and going until those small victories just stack up, and they become big wins, going back to our hair issue with the afros being accepted in the workplace to now we're able to wear our natural hair in the workplace, however, in our uniform standards, it can't be wider than the width of our shoulders. So, so here we are, we we went a little bit. We lost something, but now you know we know that we still need to push forward we're not going to stop there. So once that we're able to wear our natural hair, the way it grows out of our head. Maybe that person who who wears a hijab, they will be they will feel empowered to apply to the airlines and be able to wear their hijab at work. You know it's just taking those little things and stacking them on top of each other, and that just speaks to the larger work that we're doing within the labor movement as a whole. But again, it's just that resilience that persistence the perseverance that was pervasive throughout the book. This is something that we have to carry on throughout our fights with with our companies with unionization and the larger labor movement and what's going on in the country as a whole like we experienced some experienced a lot of losses. These past few weeks but we're not going to stop there we're going to take those and use that to propel us forward to bring more energy and to fight whatever comes our way. What I'm going to leave everyone with that flight attendancy is that actually we are not a divided society. We see everyone from all kinds of backgrounds come on our plane, all kinds of humanity jammed in together and you would think that that is a recipe for a complete disaster every single time. And the reality is that flight attendants do a great job of de-escalation they do a great job of leading people through a peaceful process, but most people come to the door of airplane with a desire for a safe and eventful flight. So we have to lift that up and recognize that this society actually craved solidarity. And we know that as flight attendants. So as much as we will report to you that we still need your help and we need you to be helpers on the plane, put your phone down, recognize us when you come on board say hello, make that eye contact let us know that we have someone who has our back on this flight that's very helpful. But I also want you to know that what we actually experience is that society is much more united than anyone would have us believe, and that we actually see some of the best in humanity on our planes to, and we want to report that out to and not let that get lost in the mix here there's way more people who want to do good, who want to come together, who want to join together and make sure that everyone has a safe and eventful flight, then there are people who want to disturb it. So should we as female union leaders past and present, take on remaining obstacles within the AFL CIO and I'm curious if you have thoughts on that. Yeah, lots of thoughts on that. Two minutes worth of thoughts. Yeah, okay. Absolutely, we have to fight through that. We cannot be irrelevant as a labor movement and I think that, you know, when you have when you allow this system to continue to be led by people who have been in the positions for a very long time been removed from the workforce for a very long time, not necessarily had to struggle through the same things that we have had to struggle through as women workers women leaders within the labor movement, that there can be incredible inertia which I think is is where we are. We could, we could really, I mean 13 million union members is nothing to sneeze at, and activating those 13 million union members to talk about why they love their union and and engage in the communities in that way is an incredible opportunity for us to, you know, turn on. I think that what we have to do is we have to continue to challenge. You know, basically, the, the white men who are still kind of in charge. We need to abolish women's committees are issues are not side issues women's issues or workers issues, we need to bring those central. We need to bring issues from every marginalized community central to the labor movement. We need to lift up who labor really is. And so yes we need to challenge that every single day but we also need to challenge that not just by running into rooms and telling everyone how they're doing it wrong, but leading by getting results. So, you know, I have work to do as a union leader to show how you can get results. When you're empowering people and making this a worker led movement, where we continue to organize where we continue to engage people what we continue to look for and people who are not being represented today and lifting them up as leaders and encouraging them to get involved.