 Okay, we'll go ahead and call to order the Longman Planning Zone Commission December 14th 2022 meeting Roll call chairman Poland Commissioner height Commissioner Teta here commissioner Goldberg commissioner flag commissioner Boone Chairman you have a quorum Thank you Next is communications from planning director Glenn vended Wigan. Okay. Thank you Jane do we have anybody signed up for public comment? Next item is the public comment the public's invited They have a five-minute time limit to speak on topics that are not on the Public hearing list for the meeting today We do have so many signed up. We do ask that when you come up that you give your name and address For the records so John Lohgren Did I get that right? Okay, there we go. All right, okay Hello, my name is John Loughran, and I live at 220 Sherman Street and I'm here on behalf of the Bonn Farm neighbors and several of the Bonn Farm neighbors Had wished to speak before you this evening, but because of the late Schedule change they are unable to be here So I think the meeting was previously scheduled for the the third Wednesday, so they did ask me to share some of the general Guidelines and progress so far with the group and Particularly the goals of the group so you may have heard these so the objectives of the Bonn Farm neighborhood group is to reduce The number of housing units to 46 or fewer Which that density is compatible with that of the surrounding neighborhood and was also proposed by the previous developer They want to reduce traffic congestion congestion by not aligning the entrance exit points with Sherman and Grant Limit the height of all buildings to two stories or less and use a design that's compatible with the surrounding Victorian and 1960s homes Provide adequate parking for the development on site in order to overfill Excuse me in order to avoid overflow parking on spruce in the surrounding streets and finally to preserve the historic buildings on site so the Some of the representatives from the neighborhood group met with some of the folks in the planning office And they said that they had wanted to Work together so that we could have some input and constructive input to be proactive and making that keeping the neighborhood a great place and I just wanted to share that with you folks as well and In particular tonight, I had hoped to speak about parking when I was here before the your group last month I believe I spoke about traffic, so we're gonna get a lot more traffic coming down Sherman and also on spruce, but as I looked into the parking situation of what's been proposed so far it just confounds the traffic congestion which is Potentially going to happen if this proceeds as proposed so With 70 units and two garage garage parking spaces and 13 guest spaces on spruce and six disability spots that brings a total of 159 spaces that are proposed at this point and Currently the city requires two spaces I believe for each new development that's coming on or each new unit or housing Each unit but with If they just have those two spaces I know like I have like four spaces of three or four spaces in front of my house and I have a big driveway But it's still congested. We have traffic from the bar We have neighborhood traffic people have events construction vehicles and whatnot, but It's not very equitable So if all the people the overflow of traffic from the development can park in front of my house and not that I own The street, but if they can park on the public street there We can't utilize those streets now I was understanding in the conversation that I had today that the developer was proposing to deem their streets Private alleys as opposed to public streets, so they'll meet different codes as that they won't have the same width They won't have parking spaces. I don't know if they'll have sidewalks So in theory, perhaps maybe those folks from the development can walk their dog up in front of my house I I don't have a dog, but you know, I don't know if that'll be reciprocated, but Certainly as it is proposed now We would not be able to park down there. There's going to be 13 spaces on spruce provided by the developer But I could foresee even people leaving vehicles there long term as often people do when they have an extra vehicle So those spaces on spruce could be filled Immediately and permanently I don't know how that that would be addressed, but with the additional cars on the street That's only going to exacerbate the Driving in the traffic congestion, so I asked you to consider that oh the other thing that we're trying to make a Proactive suggestion, so my understanding is that if there was a If the driveways are around the back of the proposed sites then The setbacks from the garage could perhaps be less maybe a 15 foot versus a 20 foot setback Which could be required on a regular city street So I would say I would suggest or ask you to consider if they were to make a Full 20 foot setback then people could park extra long Dodge 150 Ram In their driveway So I would ask you to consider that parking as you go forward. Thank you Well, we had a couple weeks ago Thank you, mr. Lachlan. Thank you very much Is there anybody else in the public who would like to come up for the public invited to be public comment? If not, I'll go ahead and close the public comment Next item is approval of the minutes from the November 16th 2022 meeting. Is there any? Questions comments or motions? I Would like to move to approve the minutes from the November 16th 2022 Yeah, I'll second that chairman Okay, we have a motion and a second any other discussion. Otherwise. We're ready for a vote Jane Commissioner height Commissioner Teta commissioner Goldberg chairman Poland commissioner flag commissioner Boone That passes unanimously six to zero Thank you next item is the public hearing item the Twin Peaks North preliminary plat Senior planner Jennifer Hewitt Eppersen Presenting and let me Jennifer Hewitt appersons Staff planner for this particular project. I'm here to discuss the Twin Peaks North Preliminary plat with you this evening So it says a high-level overview of this project. It is a this is a seven-acre project It's currently in an area with mixed use Regional center zoning the applicant is proposing 100 townhomes on this property It is part of the Twin Peaks urban renewal area and if there are any Specific questions related to that later on we do have Tony Chacon here who can speak to that And it's also adjacent to Dry Creek so The applicant is proposing Townhomes or attached single family, which is a permitted secondary use in the mixed-use regional zoning district townhomes are a product type that are currently in short supply in Longmont and Approval of this project would enable development of really this key missing middle type of housing And that would provide ownership opportunities as well Yeah So in terms of where this project is located In red is the subject property Immediately to the southwest. This is the village at the peaks shopping area mall old mall The area outlined in black is the overall Twin Peaks urban renewal area So in terms of neighboring properties, so this property fronts on nelson it would be accessed from nelson and Is just to the east of hover street So in terms of zoning this pretty much large area is all mixed-use regional center Opposite Ken Pratt. You do have some mixed-use employment some primary employment some public facilities So secondary uses we've had a lot of discussion of them at this commission over the last few meetings Um secondary uses are permit identified in the zoning code and they are as policy Permitted so much so that they are less than 50 percent. So not more than 50 percent of a given area of zoning So for this particular area Um, the area outlined in red is the proposed project The blue outlined areas are Currently existing or approved secondary uses So to the south we have The old hotel which is under conversion to be the vivo apartments And then over just south of dry creek would be the sweets, which is another hotel conversion And then we have sunset heights Slash zinnia, which is currently under review in this little wrap around area this particular area right here This is specifically an affordable housing project there So, um Essentially this project is this area is pretty much built out And the primary primarily it's occupied by commercial uses There is additionally a self-storage facility immediately to the east of this property Which would be considered a non-conforming use in this particular district But again as noted, um, both attached single family Or townhouses and multifamily are are permitted as secondary uses within this zone And um doing some back of the map napkin math here, um This particular area of mixed use regional center, um the twin creeks or not twin creeks twin peaks Urban renewal area is um not 149 acres and currently six and a half percent of that land area is um And currently has existing Or approved and i'm going to say known secondary uses We did not do the deep dive to make to take a look at all of the uses within the Village of the peaks, but presumably those would be primary uses um Approval of this project would increase that percentage to a shade over 11 percent of the total area, which Still keeps it quite a bit lower than the 50 maximum Additionally, as I noted this area is pretty much built out. So really any new development in this area would be infill or redevelopment So there really isn't space to come in and put in a huge apartment complex or anything of that nature in this area So one other thing to note is the applicant is requesting the density modification Mixed use zoning categories do require they they have a minimum of 18 units per acre The applicant is requesting a 21 percent reduction to 14.21 units per acre Because this property is adjacent to dry creek. There is a required 100 foot riparian setback That the applicant is planning is planning to meet there are no deviations required from that required 100 foot setback So that does present some challenges with meeting that strict density standard Additionally, as I noted townhomes are a recommended use for this area. There are permitted use for this area And getting to with that So that setback combined with various right of way and open space requirements As well as having a marketable Product does present some challenges with strictly meeting that 18 percent that 18 units per acre The other thing to note is that the gross density is below the 18 But if we look at net density Taking out the various setbacks rights of way open spaces, etc It is a much higher nearly Nearly 29 unit per acre density But planning actions do use the net density calculation. So Hence the required requested modification So in terms of the preliminary plat, um, it's impossible to see on this screen I'm going to let the applicant speak with greater detail about the The specifics of this project But in that shell the units are proposed to be alley loaded. There will be some local streets that connect The property to both Nelson road to the north and also to court Place that would provide another connection to Nelson and also could additionally add some connections to sunset And additionally there would be a network like I said of local streets, but also of pedestrian paths And then in terms of the concept plan this shows a little more clearly What the proposed layout would be The applicant will discuss the unit types and more specifics of the project In their presentation so in terms of Staff recommendation staff does recommend approval with conditions as noted in the attachment pzr 2022 12 b Those conditions are pretty standard for preliminary plats The first one is that the applicant will Determine the method of compliance with the inclusionary housing ordinance During the final plat and site plan review process Adequate utility easements will be provided And the extension of court place would need to provide adequate pavement widths etc to request to meet the various City requirements and additionally all the historic drainage patterns would need to be maintained Given given the adjacency to dry creek and ensuring that flows don't go off-site. So with that I'm going to transfer the podium over to the applicant Thank you, jennifer My name is Joel Siemens with rocky ridge civil engineering. Good to see you again um Since we last talked about this project about 20 seconds ago. It's been renamed to enclave at the peaks That's her our latest title. So and um Let's see Okay So again the vicinity map south of nelson north of ken pratt east of hover and north and east of the mall This is a sample elevation that we're Using for the town home They're coming in a variety of two and three level Town homes with an option for a Fourth eagles nest on the top That doesn't exceed the the third level roof top. So it comes out of the roof and our the owner john stevens and Andrew Stevens with silprous. They'll be giving a short presentation when i'm done stock a little bit more about the product I'm here to talk about more of the nuts and bolts and how it's put together Uh, the preliminary plat is what we're here for and uh, they're for sale lots individually Not for lease and the The square footage of the lots very depending on the allocation of right away and and where the pocket parks needed to be and here's a closer look at the north half and the south half and then One of the challenges was to connect courtee place from the east through and so we're currently going through Right away discussions with the city and the store self-storage a lot to Satisfy all all parties. So there it's a win-win situation We are improving the waterline Because the waterline did bow down across and we're putting a new waterline for the extent west east of this This development and of course we'll be looping that through to the north. This is a view of the sidewalk plan. It gives you more of a accessibility map of of where The walks are place and adjacent um We In our again, this is preliminary plan. So in final plan, we'll go in the details of whether or not we'll punch through to A hobby lobby because right now there is no access easement Adjacent to hobby lobby it is but it's not directly adjacent to our property. There's a small gap there. So Uh, we would probably phase in a cul-de-sac or flush out some of those details at final but that is the the end goal is to to put that through And like I briefly discuss water lines, there's two main right of ways The north south piece is enclave and the west east extension of a courtee place and all the utilities water sewer and Storm will also be Engineered through those streets I did a zoom in to outlady, which is found in the middle of the of the subdivision as called a Gathering place is about 9400 square feet We haven't flushed out any of the amenities or or whatnot, but that's That's the potential it has there in the center Uh, basically the drainage plan is is showing all the flows being captured in inlets as they exceed Allowable depths in the street to inlets to pipes and to the south And and so there'll be a series of pipes that go to the southern part This is my favorite part of the development the detention pond We initially went to um To design a rain garden, but we were requested to satisfy The excess urban runoff volume instead which is about About two times the required of just the water quality typical volume. So we were able to To achieve that in our preliminary report and and so it's located here at the south And as jennifer said, we were able to achieve a 100 foot setback of riparian area to where The rain garden is in that riparian area, but anything vertical is outside of that area So to review, um, we're improving our infrastructure With this project there'll be a decreased fire response time because of connectivity of roads and ability to get to the West end of the existing cul-de-sac at courty place Where we talked about the riparian setback we are reducing stormwater discharge for the minor storm events With the addition of this pond and and there will be historic discharge at major storm events. So there will be a lesser flow for the minor storm events Uh, we talked about the gathering place. Uh, they are Assigned whether preliminarily they're thinking about doing the cash in lieu for the affordable program Rather than dedicating units at this point There'll be an increased diversity of housing types in the longmont area and it'll improve the blight in this area with the addition of new high quality infill project and Angie from our office made this cool Closer closure a clip With us today, of course soprous homes Stack lock is the landscape architect. They are not here today, but again, we're from rocky ridge geno and I and then Delish and Associates is here to answer any traffic questions and with that John is going to talk briefly about the product Hello, my name is John Stevens and I am the owner of soprous homes which We started in 1994 Longmont was our first Geographic location we built we started our company in the creekside neighborhood at the southwest corner of the town And I think we've built Over the years in the various neighborhoods in longmont. We've built probably about 150 houses in longmont and about 400 In the boulder county area So we've been around a while. We're enthused about this location For this type of product because it has a lot of Connectivity to resources around whether it's the fairgrounds for walking and the Connection there from there on to the golden ponds and the trail system up there obviously the retail and restaurants are opportunities are attractive and then We have a belief although i'm not sure I I don't know this is a hundred percent, but I my understanding is that at the southeast corner of hover and nelson Eventually that'll be a bus rapid transit stop into boulder so it has good Car-free commuting opportunities into boulder. So we like to we like the area really well Our product mixes 37 two-story townhomes they range in size from 1700 to 2200 square feet Three bedrooms two and a half to three and a half bathrooms depending on the plan And living room kitchen etc on the ground floor and those will have two car garages alley accessed 63 two-story townhouses Oh three-story townhouses 63 three-story townhouses and And Not all of them will have this but many we believe will have Based on market demand A rooftop deck with a little room up there where the stair The stairway up but you'd land inside rather than outside and go out a door we've There's a lot of this type of product being built in a denver metro area actually in most of the nation right now And it seems as though These rooftop decks are really popular There's there's an opportunity also for our two-story houses two-story townhouses to have the rooftop decks Obviously the views are tremendous We don't know anything that's gonna about anything that's going to go on to the west of us other than I think tony Um We think it's going to be higher product density on the two parcels to the west of us There's the hobby lobby parcel and then there's the old Walmart parcel I think the Walmart parcel is Thought of as being apartments for rent apartments and maybe the hobby lobby might be For sale condos, but I can't speak to any of that. So those buildings may impact the sight lines from our product But hopefully not and I think we're there's enough distance to where we'll still see long speak over them The materials is primarily siding in stucco and Probably some metal railings no wood railings. There may be some stone accents The final architecture is far from far from being here so we're really enthused about it and We'll be happy to answer any questions. I don't know if now is the time or we waited until later in the presentation You let me know Okay, thank you Jane was this the sign up? okay Next part is the public comment and we are checking to see if anybody is signed up to speak on this So give us a few minutes Okay, um, there is nobody on the list But if there's anybody in the audience who would like to come up and give comments on this You do get five minutes And we just ask that you give your name and address for the records If there's no takers we will go ahead Oh, we do have somebody please come forward. As I said, please state your name and address for the record and you have five minutes Um, good evening. Um, my name is Jerry Walther and I live at 1305 spruce avenue sorry, um I kind of got teared up when I saw all those houses um but We need to do it And I understand people need places to live and we're very fortunate to own a house um in the bond farm and um I'm just tying it to that because This is so different from our neighborhood There aren't any single family homes around it and um There are places to eat within walking distance and um It's just really really different and um You know, we're we're engaged in trying to find all kinds of ways to uh, hopefully get you to understand the difference between building town homes and a big empty lot like this and and inserting them into a really old neighborhood um surrounded by smaller homes and smaller streets and um I hadn't planned on talking tonight and I'm just kind of Sorry emotional, but I I think it's a beautiful plan and I I'm I you know, I don't want to Step on anybody's toes because you do need housing and I understand Longmont is In a box and you have to try and put as many houses In your area as you can and I understand that it's just I just hope you see how different this This plan is from the plan for bond farm. That's all. Thank you John Lockram 220 Sherman Street. I would just like to add that I Looking at the two developments and I see that there are the two access points at this development Which I just think is awesome. It's close to public transportation shopping Nature or whatever, but I really like that there are two access points so that that traffic flow is going to be distributed It sounds like a safe option. Thank you Thank you At this time, I will open it up to the commission for questions Commissioner height Am I on? I don't know how to push these funds. Um, mr. Stevens. Thank you very much for bringing a product. Um, that is ownable Um to our attention. I appreciate that Um, miss huitt apperson though. I have a question It goes back to secondary uses and it goes back to m ur zones um In particular because mr. Stevens did note that the hobby lobby project Building might be converted and the old walmart building might be converted to housing What is the zoning district? I mean you on your map you pointed out this lot What's the district that we're doing with do you have a map of that? I do It is a There you go Okay, now we have the right one up. That's over and then it goes over to the in is that That's bigger than the Or is that that's the that's the twin peaks the village at twin peaks? Correct the village at the peaks So this area we would consider this area to be the area bound by nelson Hover and kenpratt. Okay, even though the m ur district goes to the west across Hover and to the north east northwest Technically, we could we could probably incorporate that area as well It just makes sense since this is within a specific urban renewal area to address this portion of it But we can definitely do additional analysis And this is where I get to my Repeated question your five minutes is up Sorry So We look at this at a district-wide level But we by necessity break it up And you're explaining that we're We're we're looking at the village plus in this particular instance Which I guess I understand but I still want to edit different date time and place That said The harby lobby building and the walmart building I know you said even with this being converted the threshold Of secondary uses still only goes to 11 percent. Does it change dramatically at all if we include those two lots? Yeah, I haven't done the math, but I will bring up the vicinity map So essentially you have basically Most of this area south of dry creek is is built out essentially It's all developed and it's primarily developed with commercial uses with the exception of Some residential here that also that includes a converted Hotel. Oh, yeah, so there is that You do also have The vivo apartments down here, but the vast majority of this area You know, this is all It's all the village of the peaks. It's probably not going to be anything but the village of the peaks The subject property then immediately to the west of that is that the approximately where the Hobby lobby building is Roughly, that's hobby. Yeah, this is hobby lobby right here Further over is the old walmart, which is vacant. Um And so you understand You don't know the math and neither do I Does somebody Minus five If I could give some input, I'm Tony Chacon, I'm the director of urban renewal authority and also redevelopment manager for the city so yeah, the only First of all just let everybody know that there is nothing on the plate related to hobby lobby going away anywhere in the near future Okay, so they just undertook another five-year option on their property They have cheap land right now. So they have no intent of moving And then they have another five-year option should they choose it. So we're anticipating you're not going to see hobby lobby moving anywhere in the near future We do have discussions underway on the old walmart site, which would bring in possibly about 300 apartment units But collectively those two parcels would only add an insignificant amount of land. That's actually residential in character And we actually from the urban renewal standpoint Are looking for that housing component because it's missing in this particular area And a lot of the businesses in the area have expressed that concern that there's no Housing in the immediate area that's really attracting potential customers to their stores and stuff and the village is doing rather well But the little shopping center that's associated with hobby lobby if you have not been through there more recently It's pretty much barren and vacant And a lot of that is related to Some of the smaller business operations just don't drive enough business there with hobby lobby being in place They were fine when walmart was there But now just hobby lobby doesn't bring those customers and that's why they would like to see more housing nearby Okay I'm done anybody else with questions Okay, is this mic live? Okay, cool. I don't think I was expecting to speak so soon. Um Thank you commissioner height for kind of getting the conversation going Tony I don't know. Can I do you just you'll just sit there or do we want to have you come up to the mic? What's what's best? As long as your mic turns out great Thanks for being here today. It sounds like your presence is really relevant today Could you expand a little bit more on the need for housing in an urban renewal area or in this area? What's what's desirable about that and can you speak more to like how much do we have versus what are you trying to get to? Um, well From an urban renewal standpoint, there's no direct correlation. It's all kind of more site specific or area specific as to what the interests are so a lot of urban renewal areas have commercial enterprises that are suffering or going out of business and so In conjunction with that there's this interest in refurbishing some of those properties either new development redoing some of the existing buildings But what we're finding a lot of these areas distressed areas are also lacking housing And I'll say housing that has is attractive to a group or a population that has more disposable income And so that's why in this particular instance bringing in collectively between the Project you're talking about tonight And the potential for those apartments that's 400 residential units in there was basically some disposable cash And being in immediate proximity to the village of the peak. We anticipate that then could drive up revenue For not only the businesses but for the city itself too because then sales tax collections will increase And just let you know on this particular project It would be of benefit to increase our revenue generation because the city Basically is covering a 25 million dollar bond issue that was used to build the village at the peaks So the more money we can generate the faster we can generate it the sooner we can get the city out of that debt obligation Okay, great. Thanks Jennifer, I wonder if I can ask you a couple questions absolutely Jennifer I was scanning The posts on facebook, you know around from the times call ad that came out this week. I was very timely To generate interest around this this property. We're reviewing today And you know, we've heard on previous planning and zoning commission meetings concerns from folks around the Large number of apartment and condos and housing property projects that we've approved recently and You know in the past we've been reminded as to and it's been really kind of highlighted how there's a housing gap and There's just not enough inventory to you know serve those who want to live work and play in long month I wonder if you can just give us an idea because again, this is 100 units Sounds like tony might have another 300, you know, up his sleeve that'll come down the road Where are we at with our housing situation are we Have we met it, you know, boy, we've approved all these projects and now we're better set or are we still struggling to Keep up with the needs of the city I would say we're still struggling. Our most recent community survey shows that for 2021 city of longmont was operating at a two percent vacancy rate for its housing, which is As anyone in the real estate industry or planning industry will tell you is insanely low And very difficult to produce Adequate units that people can afford because they're the demand is just outstripping the supply so You know our estimated in 2021 we were estimated to have 40,310 housing units um Our projected population for 20 34 so 12 years from now Is about 116,000 Which is about 16 and a half percent increase Which also translates into a need for an additional 6100 or so units which You know They get entitled but getting them to permit is is another story. So it takes a lot longer to get them to permit Um, and that's new units. That's not just replacement units of you know, our units that are obsolete or need to be replaced So it's um You know and and that Assumption of that of needing an additional 6100 units that assumes that our household size stays the same But it's pretty clear nationwide that our demographic data shows that our housing Our household size is is going down and there's no reason to think that it will Increase for quite a variety of reasons And so we really are struggling to meet that demand You know longmont is in a unique situation in that We're largely built out. We don't have a lot of opportunities for annexation Remaining within our growth area. We are Um pretty well surrounded by permanently conserved open space whether outright purchased or Conservation easements. So we really have a finite amount of land that we're able to use and then looking at Existing zoning the existing zoning map Um, you know, haven't been able to dive in and do the deep analysis But if you just do a quick look at the zoning map of the residential districts. So the yellows the oranges There's not a lot of unplatted property in those areas. So We're definitely Housing is is a huge issue throughout the front range and longmont is Not, you know, we're in the same boat. So You know, we're faced with low low vacancy rates You know changing economic situations changing demand and how do we meet that and and Also, how do we meet the needs of our community with a variety of types? Okay, great. Thank you. I think just to Summon up it sounds like There's not enough existing inventory the population in longmont is going to grow We are already struggling to meet the demand now. We need to continue to add more on top of that but the Existing land where that were additional units could be built is really limited And so we really prioritize these infill Opportunities where we're building on you know blighted land that has good access to Shopping transportation and all these other perks that we heard during the The presentation today correct and as as mr. Stevens indicated this property, you know is In the there is a proposed bust rapid transit line Proposed not far from this as well. So it will ultimately be this area will ultimately be well served by transit as well Okay You know something else that's been real Hot lately is our discussions around water and longmont's ability to secure water for the future Are we Are we adding to the problem by approving more developments by adding in another hundred townhomes Um on this property if we approve that are we kind of Feeding the problem rather than you know thinking more sustainably about the future of longmont or how should we kind of balance Contributing to that. So that's a really interesting question actually. I am not a water planner nor do I play one on tv, but I did Do a review of our water demand evaluation from May 2019 and what's really interesting is that even though our population has increased our developable area has increased the Average daily water demand in terms of what is processed at the plant has actually gone down so You know, are you the city is doing a really good job in terms of Emphasizing and encouraging efficiency. There definitely have been some efficiencies obtained and we will continue to move in that direction Additionally, you know our water resources folks are You know constantly looking forward on these issues. So and to ensure that we are planning for the future and ensuring that we have enough raw water Got it. So it sounds like we've made some good improvements or you know the behavior of longmont residents is such that we're actually Dropping the amount of water we use per person. I think Over previous years, which is correct. Well, and this is just average daily demand I mean, I'm talking about the kind of city-wide city-wide the the gallons per day that the Water treatment plant is even processing. So that total number has actually gone down Despite what I would guess is considerable growth even since 2019 in the city. Correct. Okay I think there's just a couple of hot questions and we'll see if I can't come back with some more. All right Sorry The density waiver, um Am I on um You mentioned a density waiver. Um, and then when I was looking at the The the packet I didn't appreciate that We were being asked to approve a waiver and then when I relook at the packet, it's an administrative waiver We're not being asked to approve the 18 du per acre modification to 14.2 staff has done that So technically because the waiver requests are the The reduction in density request is part of a major development application that the commission is considering The commission will then address that that modification request. You are being asked. Yes It is technically within the amount the range that we could do administratively, but because it is a An action because you are having you what we are asking you to act on the preliminary plat It falls within your purview. I think I see it. Joel. Do you want to talk about it? Or do you think it's covered? well enough the hundred foot setback I understand and When I look at the map of the density of town home units that you have in there, I don't see how you could put more That's correct Yeah, but the New Orleans style is still in the detention pond maybe but uh No, because of ride away and fire access and Open space and the expanded detention requirements. So we're given That's about as dense as we can get it with this product. So yeah, that was described pretty well on What we we want to make sure we we're granting Nelson what they need and the setbacks on the west and east And then that through street of courty place. So yes and courty places it goes Butting up to hobby lobby, which apparently isn't leaving soon Do you have to put a turnaround in there and does that further reduce your so the long and the short of it is is if Uh Hobby lobby goes forward. They'll be asked via mark samson to provide a Access easement to fill the gap because right now there's like a two or three foot gap between there is access easement but it's not directly adjacent to our property and so um according to what's platted we can't Connect because there is no access. There is no granted access or ride away and so um There's hope to make that connection but If in the meantime, there's not we would do a phased cul-de-sac to We'll the fire trucks around and then and then bring it back And would that jack with your density more? It would take out Two three it wouldn't be a large amount Because the bulk of it would be in the right away and then the bulb would would take out probably the southern two units there So the next Another thing that we have to approve too is that you connect well. Um, why do you not? there's no easement for you for The soapers property on to the hobby lobby property or the easement is offset. I'm not understanding the easement is offset so We on our property We can put our right away right up to that property line and on hobby lobbies property Here's the property line and just offset. There is an access easement But it's not adjacent to the property. So there's There's just a gap of no man's land. That's that can't be flagged as emergency access or public access Who owns that? Is it I'm sorry. Tony chacon again. Um, give you a little perspective there. So when the hobby lobby area was platted They put in a utility easement But the utility easement did not extend all the way to the property line on the north south Access there They had a gap of about three to five feet For whatever reason, we don't know why they did not include that as part of that easement. So that's where the issue lies There's no so hobby the Hobby lobby doesn't own the property. They just lease the space So the owner of that property though actually owns that three to five foot So just let you know what we've been doing relative to our urban renewal efforts Because there's a lot of issues Across that entire site right now One of those is access along this area So hobby lobby wouldn't have to go away Right now there's a 30-foot utility easement We could just we're trying to convince them to convert that to an access easement And then give us that additional three to five feet for access easement too So we're in discussions with them on that matter right now And hopefully we'll make some progress here over the next 12 months or so and I do believe from a Development standpoint, I think soprous was talking about starting on the East side of their project them working towards the west which would then give them more time to resolve That issue with the urban renewal authority Um The other thing I'd like to point out too. So from an urban renewal perspective We looked at this area that included the walmart property Hobby lobby's property and this particular piece of property in an its entirety from a redevelopment standpoint And so that that density requirement the 18 units an acre Assuming we get the basically that 300 unit project is going to be 100 units an acre So if you add that plus this project In reality the average is well over 18 units an acre from a planning perspective of the urban renewal authority So I know the code is kind of wish washy right now if that applies to each parcel of land or if it applies to Kind of the redevelopment area and that's something we've been talking about with glenn on that matter So I hope that kind of clears it up a little bit about that access easement But the other thing too is we're not I don't I haven't been in more recent discussions, but Given they have Looped roadway system There's question whether or not they even need to have a Passage through that point at this point in time As I understand the issue. We just need to make sure that a new subdivision or a new plat Doesn't make it difficult for that plat to Match up with other property. It doesn't sound like that's the issue at all. Yeah, it's not that the road comes East-west at different No distances. There's a north-south. It's that north-south issue. Yeah west and you just T-boning. Yeah, so so this project so it's not an issue So this plat would dedicate the right-of-way Through this entire project site That would then allow us to tie in when we can Coordinate with hobby lobby and that particular property owner And then Joe back to my original question, which is um for the purposes of I think it's 150206015 You have to have an unusual aspect of the site that justifies your density Deviation and I think with being in the 100 Year well you have to be Outside the 100 you have to be 100 feet away from the riparian zone Which is the unique character I see of this particular property that justifies Granting that waiver. Um, thank you Thank you. I am I guess Jennifer this question is for you I had some questions about the plat itself on outlawed in Who will have maintenance of that area long term? That is actually a question for the developer. Um, presumably that those outlots are typically, um Owned and managed by a property owner's association of some sort. Um with that I'm going to Have the applicant come and speak directly to that but typically we do have the requirements that they are owned in some former fashion So outlaw m Is um Is the detention area and so the the city requires us to generate a PSC set of drawings that Clearly designates the HOA that is charged of maintaining that if they fail to do so then the city comes in Maintains it for them and then Bills the HOA And how will you put that together and hand it off to the HOA? It's generated with the plat and the and the pia and the pip and the site plan and so it's one package And they're signed off on and all all recorded together. So it's it's something that Judah Gayoni has and so if there's any questions about the detention pond That clearly states the responsibility of the maintenance of the pond and the outlet structure is on the HOA And will that accrue beginning with the first sale of the first property? Or will it take a certain percentage of the number of properties sold? To have that transfer made Could you rephrase that sorry? I okay. You're not going to sell every one of those units all at once So at what point in the process of selling off the units Does that parcel get transferred over to the HOA? Which I assume is going to be managed. It's upon platting. It's the HOA's. Yeah, and so You will construct it. Will you also landscape it? Yes, there's a landscape plan that's Part of the final documents as well. Yes, so and that landscape plan will be completed With the handoff to the HOA Yeah before they can pull their first building permit or CO they have to build and verify All the rights of way and the detention pond and all the utilities and test them, right? But I'm talking more specifically for landscaping, which has a tendency to get lost in everything. Is the landscaping required as well for I'd like to turn the mic over to my good friend, uh, christian hofer christian. Don't go too far I will We'll call him christ Good evening chairman and members of the council chris hofer with public works Through the pia process the which the developer signs they construct all the public improvements One of the things that we check before granting what we call construction acceptance Which is kind of the initial acceptance of everything they've done Is we work with planning to make sure that the landscaping is installed If they are not able to install it at the time of construction acceptance. We do have a option for them to put up additional securities So that they do get it constructed before the first co was issued on a building And then we can release those once it's constructed What if there's a determination that however much they've set aside isn't enough Either due to rising costs or unforeseen issues The intent of the securities is um to be an incentive for them We're holding their their money right is an incentive for them to construct it It's not intended necessarily for the city to take that money and construct it ourselves But we would ask them to Provide us with a cost estimate of the time that we're going to take securities Which generally is within months of when they're going to be constructing So it should be very close to the cost Okay, thank you And the other question I have is in regards to parking on the site Um And I'm not sure who wants to answer this So how many Parking how many garages per unit? So it's a two car garage correct for all units. Yes and then The let's bring up One of the exhibits Yeah, sorry Trying to refresh my memory on driveway lengths But it's right against the alley. So it's just the two car garage and then there are a pedestrian refuge Crossing areas where the bump out is is provided to make a shorter crossing across the The right-of-way and so both Courty place and the north south street has on street parking Okay, so then you've accommodated guest parking in those areas. Thank you Thank you chair pollin. I have Basically some comments to planning as opposed to the applicant But the applicant shed some light on some questions that I did have first of all I really appreciate that you included the urban renewal plan from 2009 in our packet because Being relatively new with the planning process I didn't know all the details And I appreciate Um appreciated those details My first I've bounced back and forth about this project as I was reading through the packet and my first thought was Oh, finally we have some for sale units We've been approving all these apartment buildings and it's really nice to have some for sale units And then I thought You know, there's no other housing in this area and Is that a compatibility issue now this evening? I find out which again because we're not aware of all the planning projects This evening I find out that um The walmart site is going to be 300 units and hobby lobby Down the road will be additional housing units That's very useful in making a decision but that wasn't obvious in the packet and With the information that I had to work with It's also interesting that it was noted that The merchants want housing with disposable income and we have three lha Projects two existing and one coming up And those folks don't have a lot of Disposable income so this project would help that requirement from the urban renewal plan and the fact that we're going to have two other large housing projects Near it make me feel a whole lot better about it Tonight than I did coming into it one of the comments That I made before the meeting was well, we're not going to have any public comment because There's no neighbors to complain about it like we've had for many of our Recent projects Because there's no housing around it and the bit of housing That is around it are not neighbors who would come to this meeting and and complain about it the merchants Want the housing but they're not here to promote it. So those are just Some comments And you will see that My vote will tend towards it And as I walked into the room I was feeling against it. So All of this additional information is really helpful and I'm glad to see that the urban renewal redevelopment whatever it's called Includes the housing Because it wasn't evident off the bat So thank you Chris I'm going to ask you to come up If you can speak I think you're going to be the person to speak for this A long dry creek that area going let's say from hover Eastward Is there anything happening with it the the one thing when I look at this I wish there was a way because right now the way I see it is The road right after hover Right east of hover Where the bank is Is an access point to get over to the village at the peaks The only other one I see is over to the east over corti place over and then you have to go through the parking lot of that Apartment Is there any thought to do an intermediate bridge walkway path or something just so that When these things get built The the people have a better way to get over to the peaks and is there anything In general happening a long dry creek and I'm going to turn my mic off so that you can There we go chairman, uh, yes, um, there have been many discussions about, uh Pedestrian corridors as well as traffic corridors through there And 20 chicone may be able to talk a little bit more about Concepts that we have looked at Just as cordy parkway is extending across this property in dead ends At the hobby lobby area The intent would be to extend that in some fashion the future to be able to create some kind of a grid system For public right of way through there As we go West of this property there may be an opportunity to extend a public right of way across dry creek and construct a bridge I know that our natural resources group is looking at extending The walkway on the south side of dry creek from from the mall out to sunset And as part of that there have been discussions about a pedestrian crossing of the the creek as well So those are things that are in discussion right now, but I don't believe that there's any immediate plans for those Yeah, I'd like to add to I'm glad to ask this question. So again, it comes back to the urban renewal. So under the urban renewal designation We have the ability to raise revenue That can be utilized for infrastructure improvements So the intent has always been to see what we can do first of all To improve the character of that drainage corridor there because Concrete just doesn't do the justice for what it could be um And we've also talked about potential crossings to support movement of the Residents in this nor I guess on the northern section of this urban renewal area to the Twin peaks not twin peaks. So that's the old place. We knocked down the village at the peaks So we have been looking at the possibility of Extending that access drive we talked about earlier that easement trying to get across the creek For vehicular movements, of course, that could be a costly endeavor But at a minimum, we're also looking to see where we can put in pedestrian crossings where appropriate and So the the one thing about these projects as they come forth They will lead to generating the revenues that we would need to make these improvements So yes, we've been in discussions with our engineers and saying How can we make this happen? And their answer is find us the money. So that's what I do Thank you very much. Um, I'm just going to give my comments. Um As with commissioner boom when I first looked at this, you know, I did have the big question Why are we putting townhomes and not apartments here? Especially when there's a variance I'm going to say variance being asked for the density But now seeing that there are going to be apartments further to the west In the general vicinity that the townhomes do make sense in this area Housing it gives a variance of housing then to the apartments that will be built here shortly. Hopefully shortly So, uh, given all that I am in favor of this, but I look forward to other comments from the commission Commissioner gullberg Yeah, thanks chairman and thank you jennifer for the answers earlier Yeah, I I too am supportive of this project. I think really our comp plan and vision long line is begging for it You know, there's a lot of desirable attributes to this Um, all of which I think have been mentioned by my fellow commissioners You know the fact that it promotes compact and efficient growth and are Quickly, you know running out of space city of long one that we love It's promoting a mixture of land use It's infill and redevelopment focused, you know, this is these are little gems that we need to grab on to when they come across our plate Um, it's serving a housing gap that you know, I think we all know Um, folks are just struggling to be able to live and work in longmont And this will help serve that and the fact that it's ownership and will allow folks to kind of enter into the housing Um Market and I'm not sure that's the right phrase The fact that we don't have any concerns from neighbors as commissioner boon identified There were no neighbors to to complain and if there were neighbors Here today, they'd be Applauding bringing in more folks to come shop at their businesses There's existing infrastructure as we've mentioned already transportation retail Schools excel everyone's, you know, all of our partners are willing to Um support this project Um I too thought at first boy, what are we doing with a bunch of townhomes in this kind of You know kind of quiet part of nelson But I think that's exactly what it needs is it needs a little bit of life a little bit of energy to Kind of connect the dots and and really bring that Make that a more vital part of our town So it improves an otherwise vacant area The applicant has done what they can to meet the standards Including the riparian setbacks. So I think this is a really great project Do we have any other comments? Do we have any motions? commissioner goldberg Well, I didn't see anyone jumping. So I figure I would go ahead and do it. Um I guess my final thought is the conditions that were recommended by the city Um are all like Expected there's like no curveballs here. You know, I think we could without those conditions They would still need to be met in order to be approved is in my mind, but I think for the sake of Um keeping it abundantly clear. I guess my recommendation Then would be to approve Pzr 2022 dash 12 b With the Um conditions that are listed in our packet conditions one through four Thank you. We have a motion. Do we have a second? You know what I'll go ahead and I will second the motion Is there any other comments any other questions? If not, let's Oh commissioner height Oh in his two cents worth, which is that as I previously discussed I think the density waiver conditions have been met and I'm also satisfied too that Though it is more residential in the mur zone this mur zone is Fairly fully developed and the secondary use here is Under 20% and so I'm satisfied that it it meets that secondary use criterion. So I'll be an approval too Okay, jane, let's go ahead and have the vote Commissioner height. All right. Commissioner teta. Hi commissioner goldberg. Yes chairman poland. Yes commissioner flag Commissioner boon Chairman that passes unanimously six to zero Thank you Where is that Uh This this item now enters a seven day appeal period during the time Any agreed party may appeal the commission's decision By submitting a written appeal letter stating why the planning and zoning commission's decision Should be amended or reversed by city council All appeals must be in writing and must be received in the city clerk's office and the planning office within the seven day appeal period The appeal period begins thursday december 15th at 8 a.m And ends wednesday december 21st at 5 p.m And that is that for the public hearing items Next item is final call for public invited to be heard. This is if anybody Any of the public would like to come up and talk about something that was not on the agenda for today You have a second chance Seeing nobody move forward. I will go ahead and close the final call public invited to be heard Next is items from the commission and I believe Commissioner height You might have something Circulating the cheat sheet um You I don't know am I on um Commissioner I did not tune in to my socials. Um, and apparently I I don't know what you were referencing on facebook or whatever else came in But I know that In the last several meetings we have discussed Or we have seen an awful lot of um four rent applications come before us. Um, which I I haven't hidden from the fact that I don't think that that meets The city's goal of having diverse Home housing types being made available And so I put together this cheat sheet which I circulated um Quoting from envision longmont and then quoting from 1501 030 which is the purpose and the intent of the zoning code which is to provide Generally a range of housing types Including townhomes multifamily apartments condos live work situations. Um, as well as housing for special populations That routinely comes up again and again and again as a mix of what we should be doing. Um Frankly a hundred townhomes in that particular lot Was nice, but it would have been great to see a mix um of smaller families Smaller family houses We then delve into what's the market carry? Um, and the market truly likes apartments right now for whatever reason um But I don't think that we should be be held into Market forces when we are charged with The longer vision of A longer envision of what long launch should look like. Um, and the apartments meet And I want to say a quick need. Um to put people in houses ownership is a Holy different gain then then giving money to The california teachers retirement fund. Um, which is funding an awful lot of this type of development I think people that have an ownership interest in our community are more vested in this community Not that apartment dwellers are not going to be vested. It just it creates a different type of opportunity for A living experience that is being missed when we allow Allow apartments to Get rubber stamped. Um, and so I would like us I'm going to keep banging my gavel. Um on more diversity As opposed to apartments and I wanted to share with you The code provisions by which we should be doing this that's what I had to say I don't know if there's more to be said Try again. Thank you As I said before I was really happy that this was a for purchase product But unfortunately The insurance costs wrapped around condominiums has gotten way out of hand both in building them and um And just in maintaining them For the builders the insurance for a condominium Over an apartment is about three times And for design professionals of which i'm retired, but I used to be The insurance to be involved in the design of a condominium project over an apartment complex Is also for your eno insurance is about three times So the insurance industry has really put a damper on condominiums and the way that Many developments have gotten around that is to build them as apartments and keep them for the six to seven years statute for construction defects And then turn them over into condominiums But unfortunately building them as condominiums right off the bat is cost almost cost prohibitive because of The insurance issues and it's really unfortunate and that's probably why all of the more recent projects that have come through as apartments And we've asked did you consider? condominiums and every one of these builders has said no we do apartments And that's why it's unfortunate. It's really unfortunate, but I don't know how to fix that It's an insurance problem sorry I'm looking at this slightly differently because um I get concerned that when we do have a rental kind of a property situation development We allow them to do cash in lieu We don't require a set amount of those apartments to be set aside as affordable housing Which I think if we did would contribute to getting more people off the street I know it's tough to deal with people who don't have a sense of how to maintain an apartment or a townhouse or even a house And to coach them through that and I know from past experience in other towns that Sometimes there becomes a conflict Between maintaining those units by people who have never been in that position And people who are have been in that position a long time And so I don't know how we work with that, but I think the way to get more people into housing is to have a standard that we maintain of This amount percentage wise of anything you built rental or for sale We need to have affordable housing And not cash in lieu I think that's It's going to be tough I mean, but it's going to take grit But I think that's the way we have to do it Um, and it's not inexpensive But we pay for it one way or another And um I think we have to have more affordable product Built maybe the city has to figure out how that's done or we work with A developer to get it done, but we need to do that And maybe we have to look at being very careful at how we measure out Our housing percentages in mixed-juice zones Because of those areas as we know There's less neighborhood conflict In putting those that housing there I don't want to Create areas for oh, that's the affordable housing area If they're intermixed with regular housing We don't have that I just think we have to put more thought into that The other part is that Lots of times we think of people leaving apartment situations And moving into a single family structure or a town home That has lawn area Or some kind of landscaping to maintain There are a lot of people out there that are not into doing that at all And you notice that even people out in single family residential structures Given the option of not having landscape to maintain they will rock in that yard And the minute they do that, of course, they've created a weed barrier underneath the rocks Whatever falls from the sky will not get into the land And in fact, we're starting to dry out Our land We really are That's a whole another system and whole another discussion About keeping the water in the ground And not creating a microclimate of a desert area But some people are not up to maintaining their properties Especially the outside landscaping And I think that has to be thought about very carefully I am concerned about outlets Um when Like the one that we have tonight We have city provisions to try to make sure that those outlets get landscaped But the way that the housing turns over And the way the builder actually passes on that parcel After it's been completed and I have to say in brackets completed Because sometimes they are not And there isn't enough cash left Enough funding to adequately landscape and maintain those areas um I think that there has to be more coaching perhaps Um by the city And how do they maintain their outlets and along the water areas and trails so that Communities aren't left with no idea how to get it done So that's my concerns Um, I just want to say uh for commissioner height and I know that Commissioner teta and commissioner goldberg have been here a while so seven eight years ago We really did do a lot of approval of Subdivisions of single family houses Probably more uh to the detriment to the fact that we really didn't have a lot of apartment approvals back then It's a cyclical thing. I think I understand your concern Um, I just want to let you know that It's it's cyclical and I think uh, especially when we get into where for the most part we're doing a lot of In development and a lot of it's kind of like on the outskirts It's areas that really do call more for apartments because they're off of main roads It just happens to be where we've been asked to approve things. It's just the way it is um, that's kind of my comments that to kind of I don't know Put you at ease a little bit, but It's cyclical and as I said seven eight years ago. We did a lot southwest long mount We did a lot of stuff down in southwest long a lot of housing over there. So Um, I see it come and go I do agree with you. I hope that we do see more I would like to see something like I believe it's the one area where they put in the smaller houses on smaller lots Love that idea if we can see something like that The other thing cash in lieu was brought up Um I must say I agree with that. I think it is too easy for the developers to do cash in lieu um, and I believe though that the City council may be looking at that maybe Oh It has come up. Um, and I think um the Council has asked staff to take a look at the cash in lieu Because there is a fear that's that's the automatic step. I think that most developers take It's not something that necessarily builds to a one-to-one ratio of affordable housing units It's really a gap a dollar amount That's the gap between what's affordable and what market rate is and a lot of people I don't think understand that it's if you're required to have three units The fee in lieu doesn't pay for three units. It pays for the difference between the affordable So, um, I know uh, we are getting kind of a war chest of those funds So it does help us on More federally funded to provide some incentive dollars as well So it's not like the fee in lieu has no value to us. It helps us get the most affordable units Which are only done through some kind of federal Um, assistance So, um That's about what I know about fee in lieu. I don't know that it's scheduled for a agenda or anything You don't know Okay Thank you again. I wanted to give my two cents worth about the Fee in lieu. So the last project that we looked at We were told by the developer I think this was the Maybe the sugar mill project I think it was that one that the city told them that they that they preferred the the fee in lieu on that Project so I'm wondering if that's something that is project specific Or is that what developers are being told that's number one and my then I have a question I'm not aware of a lot of Projects that have the affordable units within the subdivision blue vista is one that comes to mind because I think the city owns the lots of the affordable units perhaps And That's what keeps them affordable, but but but I could be wrong and I'm just wondering how those kinds of Creative affordable housing and those are single family small little single family homes most of which are market rate and Whatever percentage are Permanently affordable, but I don't think those Homeowners own the land, but I could be wrong and I know there was some kind of special financing That the city helped with as well, but I'm wondering if there's other ones of those or if that's being pursued at all As you know When we recently went through the plan development to create the cosco Project the city did end up with a portion of property there Now there's also a private owner next to them and my understanding is there We are looking to commingle the properties and and do something very similar I'm not uh, I guess you got the your two newest planners here So I'm not sure of the land trust. I think is what you're talking about A 501 c3 or the city maintains the ownership of the land And then it's more of a condo for the unit And I'm not too familiar with that, but Thinking off the top of my head. I know along quail run I think there are some units that were affordable that were integrated into that subdivision But That's about the only one I know the city does own several parcels around The community, but they they tend to go for that rental at 50 percent AMI And kind of max the the number of units And I tend to agree from a philosophical standpoint. I think it's so much better to get the Private sector to figure out how to build units at even 120 percent AMI I think it would be such an easier Problem to solve I think Thank you Yeah, I think I think it uh It especially Matters when we're talking about a for sale product and I can't remember the last time we've saw a for sale attached product Come before us. I want to say maybe it was the terry street Brownstones Long time ago Um But uh, it's I think it's maybe the beginning of a trend. I hope we're going to see some more for sale attached product Thanks chairman. Yeah, uh commissioner. I just wanted to respond to you directly first Apologies I brought up facebook or social media and I didn't expand on what was said the two biggest concerns Raised on social media or around well, there was a couple themes. Yay more housing additionally Yay more housing, but we're running out of water and so those The I think of those is kind of like public invited to be heard So I just wanted to make sure that we went on record and asked Jennifer to kind of clarify A what is our current housing situation and b what is our current and projected water situation? um, I don't think technically, you know You can kind of finagle that into some of our review criteria, but um, I just wanted to kind of address some of the concerns that I was hearing hearing if you will But I think as a relate to this, thank you for encouraging the distribution of this to the commission Yeah, I think about this is I don't think about this You know, this is coming from our comp plan. These are goals and policies. I think about them like Kind of citywide, you know kind of bigger versus project focused And so when I think about, you know, and it's saying we want things like townhomes and multi-family apartments and diversity and A variety of different options attached not attached. I really think about kind of big picture. I'm looking at the whole map and so And I do feel like we're I feel like we're getting that distribution And maybe it's because you know, we've been doing this together for You know a lot of years But I feel like we've gone through some cycles as the chairman mentioned where a lot of housing housing housing and then Ocred we're running out of we don't have enough Housing for people to live and work here. So apartments apartments apartments But I just I feel like we're kind of seeing that diversity and today being another example of That diversity today being townhomes and ownership. So while I do think the recent trend has been a lot of rentals I guess I don't know how That distribution is looking and and so I don't know if we can lean on glenn and his team to come back to us is there an ideal breakout of ownership opportunities versus rental opportunities and where are we shaking out there And what are we trending towards? I'd love to have a better idea Maybe my like rosy lenses are off. Maybe we are so heavy with apartments now and we need to like recalibrate But I didn't think we were there and so that's why I haven't had as much concern with that and just recognizing The current state we're in is that We just don't have enough places for people to live in our town I also agree that ownership is more ideal than rentals, but I also recognize that I come from a position of privilege where I can't afford that and I have that opportunity not everyone does And so I want to make sure that we're While we're leaning on one. We want to make sure that we are serving. I think as it says here All socio and economic groups. I want to be mindful of that not everyone has the money to put down on a on a On a home and so I want us to help them get there and make sure that those opportunities are there But make sure we're serving everyone. So those are just a few thoughts So glenn I don't know that's a formal request, but if we can get an idea or if you can chime in now or later with What are good? Where should we be going as far as breakout between? rental versus ownership where are we now and you know, how should that be impacting our decisions Yeah, just a couple of things we did just put out our 2021 community profile and this does take a very broad look at our housing types So right now we're about 65 percent single family of the 40 000 units that jennifer mentioned 18 percent multifamily and 17 percent we defined as single family attached. So that's like what you saw tonight So What when I looked at this what kind of shocked me a little bit is jeez when we issued permits We issued 70 single family permits and 561 multifamily permits now that could be single family attached as well So I just thought what what does that mean as far as changing this balance? um, and I put all of the units as 570 561 units has been all multifamily all apartments And didn't give anybody any credit for single family attached that are probably in here um Doesn't change those percentages 1% basically It's just a bump a little tiny bump now. We've had some This year will be the same. I looked at what the planning commission looked at and saw kind of the same numbers as far as A large amount of multifamily 644 units actually you looked at at some degree that Is more likely going to be apartments, but then also 123 single family attached And 31 single family units So almost the reverse balance of what you see here, but I guess Just a real broad brush number that I've always used as kind of a a guideway is Your community should be about 30% multifamily That's kind of a a normal number We haven't really I noticed the comp plan doesn't get to that kind of detail But we're certainly not Running over the the single family character of the neighborhood of the community So that's still the dominant housing land use Yet, but if I keep waving the flag for more Apartments and multifamily then maybe we'll skew that but no, I think that's that's really helpful So it sounds like you're saying 30% 70 approximately is kind of where in your mind you're trying to get us towards or kind of your benchmark and we're Kind of on pace for that. Is that where we're sitting at? Did you say 60 40? Well, I mean at this rate, it's going to be 25 years or so right before we get to that point Um So I haven't really crunched that now I will say we are under contract with a company called root policy That is going to really delve in deep as far as what the housing is in our community What's projected and what are those gaps? Primarily from affordability and we asked them to look at the attainability to So they're just under contract. It's going to be about a four month deal So we'll get a little bit more green to what the housing stock is out there Cool, great. Thank you Here we got brought copies for you Yes, I it certainly will include the planning commission And root policy they're a good group I think we were glad to get them We actually went out last spring and we got nobody to respond to our rfp So We we delayed it about six months. We got about five firms that put in port and I think we got the best so excited about that I just wanted to add on. Yeah, I've been here 10 years too and have seen the cycle And It's geographic as well as housing type You know Nelson and airport that area South and west over there. Yeah, that's all single family And possibly shame on us for not having more multi-family in that area it developed into the enclave of kind of big single-family homes over there the North and east part of town Seems to be getting developed now with an awful lot of apartments Um, that's just what I see. Um, I also Am known to sit on this commission and hear from people that say what's with all the apartments In my neighborhood, which is where I live in northeast um, so It's trendy It is money and money. Um Money talks, but our rules guide us at a different Level at a different principle than just Following the dollars. Um, and it being more expensive and the insurance Um, You know, there are developers that do it Boulder Creek does it Phelps does it there are people that figure out how to make this work. Um Possibly they build better and don't have construction defect liabilities in their, um, ballot work that they have to deal with But for us as a commission that's Charged with how this town develops Kinda, um, we approve it what comes before us When we're charged with Trying to assure that there's a diverse housing type. Um, we should be mindful of that. I'm not saying that we don't do it. It's just The trend we need to Possibly be the dam that holds back Some of the easy money any other Comments any other comments in general from the From the commission commissioner golbert Yeah, thanks chairman. Um Jennifer or glenn can you clarify when we change the date of a P and z meeting like this. How do we notify the public? Or maybe jane even knows the answer But you know, we want to make sure that Our neighbors know when we're happening and they come on out and be heard So I just want to make sure we're addressing that how where can they go to find out the next meeting And if there's a change Well, the one thing I was going to mention is is regardless when that date is we still do our notice You know within the timeframes that we're required to do so we moved it up a week So anybody that's in the perimeter all gets notified. So Anybody else I think That assumes we're meeting on that third week. I don't know how they would Know that something has shifted So I did post I'm sorry commissioner colberg. I did post on the city's agenda management page I posted the cancellation notice immediately following the meeting Where we changed the date so if they opened the cancellation notice They would have found this rescheduled date on that notice Great. Yeah, I just want to make sure we're you know Serving the community as best as we can. I think generally speaking this meeting is on the third wednesday, but certainly around holidays or Depending on the density of our agenda It might move right Yeah, one is housing type and one is whether a renter lives in it or an owner lives in it Well, I covered a lot of my items but I did want to mention water has come up a couple of times and The water resource folks hosted our planning staff probably a month ago And they spent two hours going through the water portfolio on what it means and their various policies and why but I thought it might be real instructional for the planning commission if we asked them to do an abbreviated presentation On the city's policies and our portfolio of water and how we got to where we are right now, but I'm hoping to do that maybe in january. I think we have kind of a business meeting Where we generally pick Officers for the next year But we'll try and find some time and invite those folks to do that presentation all right And other than that, uh, thanks for a great 2022 And we look forward to 2023 and hope you have a great holidays Just a quick do we have uh new planning? I did want to mention that so on the 20th on tuesday, uh council will be appointing Board new board and commission members Thank you. And then um, we are now in adjournment