 Welcome. Thank you for joining us for the nonprofit show. We are excited to have one of our presenting sponsors back Katie Warnick CEO of staffing boutique, joining us from the New York area, and Katie is going to share with us today about HR insider tips so what can you really ask when you're doing a referral check or you know talking to a candidate. So before we dive into this very exciting conversation, we want to make sure that you know who we are if we haven't quite met yet. Thank you to Julia Patrick who is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And again we want to say thank you to our presenting sponsors. We are grateful to have Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy fundraising Academy nonprofit nerd your part time our sponsor, the nonprofit Atlas nonprofit thought leader, and Katie's company here staffing boutique so again thank you to our sponsors, and thank you to you Katie for all that you've done you've been with us. And now, since the very beginning and Julie and I keep referencing that we're marching forward to our 500th episode which seems bananas in and of itself and again we have to say thank you Katie for being with us on this journey. It was a pleasure I was seeing you guys every day during the pandemic. Yes, yes. You know Katie, you have been such an interesting link to us because you, I feel like and you're, I don't know what you think but I feel like Katie kind of sees things as moving first before the rest of the sector does because you're an HR professional, and you're in this very specialized world of staffing and HR placement recruiting all of that. It feels like to me that you're my go to gal for what's starting to percolate up. And so, I've been very interested in hearing your perspective. Some of the things that you've said over now we're moving into our third year. Some of the things that you said in the beginning, I was like, really, and then I'll be ding bang, they come about. Jared, do you think that's true for you. Absolutely, you know, and it, and I do think that as New York is a very large metropolitan community, you know you really see Katie across sector of so many best practices and trends and things before you know the rest of the country might might hear of them. So, I absolutely would agree. Yeah, that's cool. Well, I interrupted you I interrupted you. I mean, I think it's that one of the things that we wanted to have you come in and talk to us about. Is that now that there's this rush to, to replace people that have left because of the great resignation people that are looking to change their, their work environment, whether they're moving out of the nonprofit sector or they're moving into it. But it just seems like there's a lot of flux, and we thought maybe we would ask you to help us navigate some of these things that you can do or you really can't do or you shouldn't do when you're hiring somebody or you're doing that process of referrals and trying to check somebody's references Let's start out the gate with how do you what is the process for checking references. Awesome. So, I just want to preface this by saying I own a staffing firm and I've been doing this for 20 years. I am by no means an HR professional, you know, I deal with a lot of HR stuff, but I see things differently and I work differently and I do things differently. So I want to preface that. But with that being said, I thought it would be interesting to share my insight from someone who does this so much for a living and sees sort of every aspect of hiring and everything that can go wrong during the process. So let's start with references if that's what you want to start with. When you are doing a reference check, you should certainly do them before you make any sort of verbal or written offer. Okay, so that's the first thing to keep in mind. The thing is with references is candidates are pretty much always going to give you references that they think are going to be good, right. It's kind of the safe space. So some people don't even think that they're relevant. The one thing I do want to say about references is that if you do them correctly, you can really get some insight or nitty gritty on what you need to know. So a couple of things. When you are going to, when you're interested in a candidate and you're asking for references, you know, they'll send them over, you know, I always tell the candidate to give that person a heads up to be expecting a call from a reference because sometimes references don't prioritize it and they'll be like, Oh, I'll call that person back on Friday, and that's not really okay, especially now when it's so important to get an offer out right. So that's the first thing. You can tell your references that someone's going to be calling you and to give them a call back. Okay, always provide people that are supervisors that you've worked for. I think that that's super important if you're a higher level person, maybe a board member that you worked with directly, etc. So if you were doing a reference check in the nonprofit sector, it's a very small world within the community, right? So a lot of this happens. Oh, I used to work on that board and I know this person and let me get an informal reference. It's not really okay. You know, that's not necessarily legal. It's not okay. It's really not even ethically okay, but it happens a lot. So keep that in mind, whenever you're interviewing anywhere, it's a small sector, everyone knows each other. So that happens more times than you would think. Okay, so I'm just going to put that out there. Now let's get back to the actual references. So if you are checking a reference of someone that you're interested in, I would say that you should have some sort of reference sheet that you refer to. Okay, so you can get something online, some sort of template, something standard that you could type into and follow. You always want to introduce yourself, tell them that you're, you know, considering this person for the job and ask specific targeted questions, things like time management, fundraising skills, database, whatever, but specific to the position that they're going to be. You can make it even have it like a grading system, like how would you grade them on this or would it be excellent, very good, something like that. Make it sort of a seamless template that you follow. You know what you're reading off of. It makes you a little bit more comfortable with the person. If the conversation is flowing, a good thing to say is, well, why did this person leave or, you know, if it was so good, you know, sort of word it in the correct way. I'm just saying, you know, well, why is the person no longer there, why aren't you working with them anymore, whatever, could be so many different reasons. And then a good question to always ask is, would you hire them back if you had the opportunity. And that opens up a lot of doors for conversation. Now, if you're doing the reference with someone who was a supervisor, and they're not an HR professional, you're probably going to get a lot more information. Obviously, you're calling into HR because HR is taught and is sitting by the books and they're only going to confirm the start date, the end date, the title of the person, and that's pretty much it. That's all HR is essentially legally going is supposed to disclose. So it really kind of depends what you want to know and how you go about it. If someone is smart, and they've been essentially fired from a job, their reference is going to be HR, because HR isn't going to say anything other than confirming that they work there and the dates. Does that make sense? Very insightful. And I love the template of questions because that keeps it consistent. You're asking the same questions, you know, of all of the candidates. And again, so thank you, Katie for sharing that information and I too have heard many times of people reaching out to someone because they know that they've, you know, worked with this person at another organization. You said the nonprofit sector, you know, it's very small when you look at it and so there's a lot of information out there. It's so small, even in New York, you know, everyone knows someone who knows somebody so you really have to watch those informal references. And in my situation, it comes to me a lot from board members, you know, where a hiring manager that I deal with tells me that, oh, a board member called one of their board member friends and got an informal reference. And I'm like, that's not okay. Like, you know, so just so you know, this really shouldn't deter your hiring decision, but you know, it's not really okay to do that, even though it does happen all the time. Yeah, so I have an odd question. First of all, I love love love your tip about having those questions in front of you and that template because also, when you're looking at several candidates, I think that's a more equitable situation that you're asking the same questions across the board. I think that's an intelligent way but how much time, should you a lot or ask for a reference to give you. Is this like a 10 minute chat or is this I mean what does that look like. I think 10 minutes is sufficient. Okay, you know, I've had references be three minutes, because I got through my, my questions and then they didn't have anything more to offer, and that's fine. I've had really good conversations I've had reference checks that have turned into clients, you know, so it really kind of depends on the person. Yeah, yeah that's smart. I mean I see that because I think to your point. It's a small, we're a small pool and so you know you never know where these things might come back around I mean it's just a good behavior. It also helps, you know if you wind up hiring that person that can be a piece of information that goes into their HR file, essentially so you have that information right from the get go. You might you could potentially refer back to it if there is an issue with the employee and be like oh yeah that was flagged on the reference you know, specifically about time management or writing or whatever you were specifically asking about. I think that having a template is super duper important. That is very helpful. And as we talk a little bit more and you scratch the surface on this Katie, and thank you for that so let's, let's dive deeper into the legal issues you know like, knowing exactly what are some of the questions that we can and cannot ask, even you into that informal reference check and realizing that that's really not okay we know it happens, but what are some other things that are really not okay and might get us in trouble. Well, what specifically on a reference or just interviewing in general. Both, let's let's take it both ways I think that's really important, especially now. Yeah, so essentially with references, you know, again, you're really only supposed to confirm the date so essentially anything on top of that, I would say, isn't safe that's why you want to build rapport with the person that you're connecting with and doing the reference on. When you're interviewing. It's a whole different story right an HR manager is going to interview completely different than a hiring manager. The issue becomes what's legal. I don't know I'm not an HR professional right, but I've been doing this long enough and I interview people all the time. Right, so questions that you want to stay away from, especially here in New York like you can't ask someone what their last salary was. Okay, it's okay in New Jersey, but you can't ask someone what they were last making directly also ways that I get around that is you know just saying well what's your salary range at this point in your next opportunity, you know, just really a wording thing specifically with that. There's also you know stipulation just around well why did you leave a specific job, you know that can essentially sometime come up. Not, not correctly, I do ask it I say oh well that sounds like a really great experience why did you leave there, you know or. Oh, what happened you know, my whole approach to interviewing is kind of the Howard Stern approach, which is, I know what's on their resume but I don't do much in depth research and I sort of approach it like the dumb dog. I act like I don't know anything, and I want them to teach me what they did. So that's my approach and that's how I build her for and that's how people sort of explained to me their jobs, and I stay away from very HR template types of things, specifically because of that I feel like I get way more if I play dumb, and I'm like oh well tell me about that. Oh, well did you like that. Oh, and then what happened, you know, I like to make it conversational. I could take good notes, and I could get a really good feel of what the person strengths are, and what they don't like to do and where I could use them and what organizations they'd be good for you know I get so much more from from playing them. So this is the first time in three years that Howard Stern has come up on our show. That's for sure. And I know, and then I just want to make sure I heard that correctly. Are you referring to Howard Stern as a dumb dog is that the student in there. I'm not saying that I love his interviews you know I typically tune in when he's interviewing someone because I really do appreciate his approach. Now, if you are someone who listens to Stern as much as I do. You know, obviously he has a research team, and he knows super good important facts about people but he doesn't necessarily disclose that when he's interviewing he sort of approaches it like, Well what happened there and he allows the the person to speak and people's interviews with him if you follow him and you know him, they disclose so much information because of the comfort level that they feel with him. And it specifically if you're talking about a celebrity who's doing like a press tour because they have something coming out, you get so much information. If you listen to an interview on Howard Stern, then you get with any other press that they're doing right because he just lets them speak. And that's my approach. Let them speak and when I'm sorry to tell you when I said dumb dog like that's how I kind of approach life. I'm just always like the dumb dog, you know, I just kind of I'm just like, Wait, what, and I just allow people to explain, and it's funny because people like me people connect with me, you know people just very easily open up to me. I know from at the gym the locker room the sauna. I know everything about everyone. So that's how I approach interviewing. And it's a great point because you know, we really do want to ask those open ended questions and see how the person responds. You know, I remember early in my career, learning that the question that's asked. So tell me about yourself, right, is not meant to open Pandora's box into everything about your childhood and it's really an opportunity to focus that opportunity as it relates to the position itself. So that is a great question. And again, you know, as you say, Katie, ask questions or are even the open ended of, Can you tell me more about that, even that basic question is a very, you know, above bar it's a legal question tell me more about that. And you're right, people will talk people will share probably more than you even want our need to know. Sure. Let me ask you this. With the clients that you're working with and the folks that you're seeing are you. And I think we've lost Katie so I want to redirect this kind of between you and I until we can get her back. Are you seeing these changes. I mean, I feel like there's a little bit of hysteria in the whole. Oh my God, we just got to take somebody with a pulse. Well, I am seeing these changes which is interesting. And in our green room chatter Katie was talking about, you know, the work ethic of America. And one of the things I've seen, honestly, is an individual taking a position verbally accepting it and before they even start, they've made another offer because they're out there, you know, really hustling for that next position. And so they're taking another offer because maybe it allows them the opportunity to work remotely 100% of the time that is happening. So our, you know, overall our landscape of the workforce has changed. Perhaps it's a dollar more an hour, or you know several thousand dollars more annually. Those are the changes that I'm seeing that are really moving the needle, and even kind of last minute moving the needle, even someone you know when someone accepts the offer, but then, oh wait, they've also been counter offered by someone who doesn't have a license. Now do you think that this is going to push our sector more into doing offers with contracts, because that's something that we haven't really had as much but I'm seeing that going up that there's an actual labor contract. Interesting. I, I've seen that more in the southeast when I was living in South Carolina, it was very known that, you know, every year you have an annual annual contract. I haven't seen that implemented as much on the West Coast, except for those CEO and the executive level level roles right I see it there more often Julia. I, you know, that's, if we had our crystal ball maybe that's something that we could predict is that contracts will come in more into play, but Arizona is an at will state right so you work at will and many of our, you know, 50 states have a similar, similar law and so that's something, you know something to consider so even if you're in a contract, you could still, you know, get out of that. You need to know, I mean you need to know what that might look like, and that that is an option but I'm just saying and here we go. You bet. Oh wait we still can't hear you. There she is. We thought you froze because the temperature was so cold. Oh my goodness I thought you frozen that I realized my wife I went out I'm so sorry. Hey, you know, Katie, we want to ask, what have you jumped in on this, because of all these things that you've said. Are you seeing more contracting done where like somebody actually signs a contract to say they're going to stay with this job or these are the parameters. Are you, are you seeing any of that. No, no, you're not at all. No, it's, it's, and I don't know what that would do, you know, based on what we discussed, you know before we started just, it just seems like word contract at will employ it like it doesn't matter. You know, it's just a very weird environment. Word means nothing anymore. People, people don't care, you know, don't care about work they don't care about burning bridges. And that's a whole other thing with references you know you know the informal references, you know, they happen all the time so you really have to be very careful about what bridges you're burning, if you're just walking off a job or not finishing a project or walking off the middle of that, an event, you know, or you know even in my business you know, I get so many maternity coverage or paternity coverage positions. And if you don't see a maternity or paternity coverage position through it really is, it's a red flag it's a work ethic issue, you know, you're, you're committing, you know, even though it's at will you know you're committing till that person returns when you're going into that position. It's, it's tough we're in a really bad environment for work. So, before we, before we end because we don't have too much time left but another thing we wanted to ask you Katie from your personal experience and your, you know, professional day to day you're living this literally every single day, probably on Saturdays and Sundays so what if a candidate wants to like, you know, say that whatever the reference check set or especially this informal reference check. What is the response or a rebuttal that a candidate might provide how does that work. Yeah I mean it's kind of tricky it's it's like, if someone gives a bad reference, and then they don't get a job offer because of it. Yes, the candidate doesn't really have a leg to stand on, unfortunately, especially with me involved, you know, as a third party person who knows about the other candidates, if I was in a situation like that, and someone got a bad reference and then I had another good candidate ready to go who got good references. My advice to the client would be go with the person that gave you the good reference, you know what, why even allow that to happen, you know, now going not through a staffing for maybe there is room for that. The thing that it gets kind of legally tricky is if an offer has been made, and then a bad reference check comes up, you know, and now what do you do now you're in a situation where what are you what are you doing you were sending the offer, you might need to get something in writing from the candidate or you know something or or or there could be a candidate that's in litigation with someone and it's like, that's also also a whole another, you know tricky situation maybe getting a written statement from the candidate that something is in litigation and they can't disclose much information. All those things start to come up during references. Wow. You're so. No go ahead. I mean before you make an offer. Yeah, that is so interesting. And then is the best practice still Katie to get three reference checks. Like what is the golden ticket when it comes to the amount. I mean, I feel like asking for three and then calling two of the three works, you know, because again, references don't necessarily prioritize so if you leave messages for free people to people get back to I think that that's pretty industry standard I think that that's sufficient. Sometimes HR people are like we need to check all three, and we need to hear what all three have to say that HR people tend to be so old school and so by the block so if that's their policy that's what they're going to do. I think two are sufficient. Okay. That's really good. You know, Katie, thank you so much for, you know, being part of this discussion and actually, you know, being part of our sector because I really feel like it's people like you who allow us to be more professional and to start moving ourselves in a more professional role. And that's something that you know we talk about all the time. We, we know that we are really hampered by our professionalism. It impacts our salary levels it impacts the duration that we hold on to our communities and our teams I mean it's such an important part I think of the whole ecosystem and so to get your wisdom on this, and then throw it into a pandemic and the great resignation. It's, it's truly mind blowing and, and I would say the things that you've told Jared and I and that we've discussed over this course has really changed. It is remarkable. It really, it really has so thank you Katie and for those of you that like and appreciate Katie style she's very direct, which is nice you know because I love Julia you're like, well can we say this and Katie's like yes I say it you know and it it's if it's a new client. So having that truth to power. Please check out Katie and staffing boutique.org. And again, follow her and LinkedIn as I mentioned earlier constantly posting because there are several openings that you are helping to fill so thanks for all you do Katie and thanks for being a supporter of the show. Thank you guys. Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. You know, it's always great whenever we have one of these questions we go to you. I feel like you give us a picture of the landscape. And I think a lot of things filter from east to west so I think it's always a cool thing I in so many ways and I know that puts a lot of pressure on you but you are kind of one of those people who have the same age voices that we know we can get to. Hey everybody if you want to see more episodes where Katie Warnock CEO of staffing boutique has been with us you can check those out and access those on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. Thank you for participating. We literally in the first couple of weeks, Katie was one of the voices that we reached out to and, and so to follow that journey and to hear what she's been saying has been absolutely riveting, and it impacts us all. We are sponsors that you we would not be here from blue from blue meringue to American nonprofit Academy your part time controller nonprofit nerd fundraising Academy, and staffing boutique yay team. Yay. Thank you for being here as we end this episode and we end all of our episodes we want to remind everybody and I think ourselves to stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow everyone.