 Good afternoon everyone. My name is Carol Werner. I'm the executive director of the environmental and energy study Institute And we are so glad to see you here this afternoon We know that it is another very very busy day here on Capitol Hill And that there are votes going on all afternoon on both the House and the Senate side So but we're very very glad that you are here for this discussion this afternoon Which we think is a very interesting and exciting and timely topic as energy policy is looked at on both sides of the hill and As it has become increasingly clear how Critical it is to really think about our energy use the kind of energy how it is used how we can provide the greatest amount of Resilience reliability into our systems as well as obviously dealing with highly efficient systems that use as little energy as possible and That are economic that really truly make a solid business case And so we are very glad to have this discussion this afternoon. It follows a Briefing that we did on May 8th. That was looking at the whole role of district energy combined heat and power in micro grids and how they contribute to improved resilience as well as solid economics and energy policy and today we are going to be Zeroing in even further to really look at combined heat and power at CHP and how CHP Helps us and our businesses and our communities save money reduce emissions and Improve energy security our energy resilience. This has become such an important issue as we've looked at more and more concerns about power outages as the country faces more and more Or so it seems any way extreme weather events that result in power outages for one reason or another So we have a panel today that is going to tell the story of combined heat and power taking us from a national picture in terms of what it looks like and providing a national analysis and background information to hearing about the Programs that are available through EPA through the Environmental Protection Agency and then looking down at a regional level and at a company level As as we really look at the story of CHP So thank you again for being here and I am very pleased to Turn the microphone over now to our first presenter and the Hampson who is a senior associate with ICF International and ICF has been working on combined heat and power issues and doing much monitoring and analysis for years and I think we all depend upon them for Having kind of the latest in very very important data with regard to CHP in All right. Hi. I'm Anne Hampson from ICF as Carol just said we'll give it a second for the slides to To come up Basically, I'm going to be giving kind of more of just a general overview of CHP and what it is To really set the stage in the context for several of the other speakers and giving a picture of where Where the CHP market is currently and what kinds of trends we see coming up in the future? Many of you may have seen this first chart You know when we talk about power generation and power production in the US There's a huge amount of heat that's wasted during that central station power generation You can see it towards the left of the graph the energy You know as fuel that's going in to the whole energy system and the amount It's almost two-thirds that is coming out as Losses due to heat or it's you know Usually power plants are set next to rivers or lakes or have cooling towers You know to get all that heat away, but combined heat and power is really saying we want to use that heat for a useful process And not let it just be thrown away and therefore we can be a lot more energy efficient Combined heat and power is not a one specific technology. It's really an integrated energy system so you can use a variety of different types of Generation technologies for CHP As long as You're you know generating electricity and then also using the by-product heat for a useful purpose We would consider that to be CHP You know in any electrical generation process you're going to generate heat And so you can use that heat for things like space heating water heating a lot of industrial plants have a lot of steam process needs You can even use heat for cooling which sounds a little counterintuitive But through absorption chillers and other types of technologies like that you can provide Space conditioning needs through the use of waste heat CHP systems are also typically located either at or right next door to the Facility where their energy outputs are being used so that really cuts down on transmission and distribution losses And so it really makes the system to be more efficient and kind of more localized And then it's also You know there's kind of going back and forth between CHP. Is it CHP or co-generation? It's both You know those words are synonymous for each other. And so we don't want anybody to be Confused at them There are two main types of CHP systems There's one that's called a topping cycle and what we refer to as conventional CHP Through the diagram you can see that fuel is going into a prime mover and creating electricity whereas there's waste heat that's going up to a heat recovery steam boiler and Comes out and can be used for You know any kind of process needs whether that would be still in steam or hot water You know at an industrial facility they could use that that steam for process needs at a hospital There's a lot of you know laundry needs. There's a lot of sterilization and hot water needs So, you know whether it's an industrial or a commercial facility. There's usually a lot of Thermal usage that's needed This next type of CHP called waste heat to power Is also referred to as a bottoming cycle CHP system it differs that instead of basically generating electricity first you're generating heat first and kind of an energy intensive process either you know and You know steel and iron plants and a big metals furnace or in some type of industrial kiln and then once That heat has has done its job for your production. You can You know channel it through a steam turbine and create additional electricity So basically, you know, there there are two kind of types of CHP But overall we really just look at it as you put in one fuel source and you get two outputs So both of those those types of system, you know have that that ratio of one one fuel stream in two things out These are just a couple pictures of CHP systems. They really can vary in size and in type The pictures are fairly little, but you can see in the top industrial system the size of those people Are pretty small. So, you know, some of the the industrial sized turbines and boilers can be pretty large especially getting to utility size systems But also commercial and even, you know, residential CHP as possible, you know with something you could see Fitting in your home. That's not a huge market in the US yet, but It might be in the future So, you know, it can CHP can be at pretty much any size down to, you know, five kilowatts up to 500 megawatts So CHP provides a lot of different benefits. I think one of the Main things that we've already been talking about is the the way that it's very thermally efficient, you know using both the electrical output and then using the heat for a useful process and through that efficiency for The site that's actually using the system, you know If they're using less energy that translates into less energy cost, which can be a very big deal Most of the CHP systems that we see going in are really going in because of the fact that it can save Manufacturers or safe hospitals or universities a significant amount of money You know it but through that added efficiency. It also reduces emissions. So You know along with You know saving money, you're also not emitting as much which can help in you know permitting processes and I'm thankful for it when I breathe air. That's not, you know, contaminated. So that's you know important to everyone But another thing that we're going to be really focusing in on on this panel too is CHP and how it can be used for reliability you know, we've seen a lot of you know kind of You know large weather events like Hurricane Sandy and in the fall that have really knocked out the electric grid for long periods of time and You know, it really becomes quite an issue about how people are going to be able to you know maintain You know water and and just you know be able to have You know Shelter and places to be and so CHP can provide a reliable fuel source at the actual facility So there's going to be some case studies today, but also, you know There's a report that was recently put out that I'll also have a link to later in the presentation talking about how specific hospitals or nursing homes were able to Continue all of their services just like nothing happened. Whereas right down the street, you know during Sandy and the aftermath, you know, people were without power for days And then CHP can also help reduce grid congestion There are a lot of areas in the country especially around cities, especially in New York City if you hear about a lot of the grid constraints that they're under and so, you know, there's not there's a lot of You know electricity and energy users right in a small area And it's hard to always have as much transmission and distribution infrastructure to put in you know to bring more Generation into the area and so strategically placed CHP can really help You know be able to defer really costly improvements in transmission and distribution This graph is basically showing the the efficiency benefits of CHP on the left side you have you know kind of a conventional You know electricity from the power plant and you know fuel coming from a boiler or your thermal energy coming from a boiler on site And then on the right side you look at the CHP system which instead of having you know Electricity just from the power plant and fuel in the boiler you're putting you know fuel into the CHP plant And you're providing both of those same outputs So for you know to get the same output you're using less fuel Only a hundred units of fuel on the CHP side versus a hundred and forty seven so that translates into a Difference of almost twenty five percent in terms of efficiency which again can save a lot of money This is basically the same chart with the same concept only on the emissions side so you can see how it actually Impacts emissions so this is based on CO2 and so you can see that there's almost half The amount of CO2 emissions released for the CHP system versus the separate heat and power So this pie chart really shows where CHP is Installed in the US today If you can you know see a lot of the big Big portions of the pie chart are in a lot of large industrial Applications like chemicals refining paper food processing and so CHP there's about 82 gigawatts in the country today at over 4,000 sites, but most of those Facilities or most of that capacity is actually at industrial facilities, which have traditionally you know been able to use CHP You know very well, and it fits in with a lot of their you know kind of natural inclinations for for energy use However, you'll see that there's about 13 percent in commercial and industrial or institutional And we're really seeing a lot of growth in that area for the future so it's kind of Not as much in the current capacity right now, but it's definitely a more of an up-and-coming area and Overall, you can see that there's 1.8 quadrillion BTUs of energy saved. That's a huge amount of money That's being saved by the the plants that have CHP and over 241 million metric tons of CO2 are being saved per year just by sites that are already operating right now CHP systems there really is no Geographic barriers they're installed all over the country They tend to be you know you can kind of see they gravitate towards population centers because where the people are there's are the Sites and the facilities that can actually make use of this, but there are no You know some renewables you can see are much better in certain parts of the country than others whereas CHP you can do it anywhere and You know it can really be beneficial regardless of any geographic issues This chart shows the amount of CHP that's gone in per year starting in 1960 So you can see that that's been a little bit of a roller coaster We've had you know a fairly steady amount of CHP for a long time and then in the 80s after the Implementation of PARPA the public utilities regulatory policy act Came in it allowed a lot of You know kind of opened up the market for CHP facilities that were able to become qualified facilities to sell into the electricity markets So a lot of growth happened during that time And you can see that fairly recently in 2006 there was a really big drop-off That corresponds to times when we had really volatile natural gas prices Natural gas is the primary fuel for most CHP systems It also corresponds with times when some of the benefits from PARPA expired And so they didn't have as much of an ability to You know sell into electricity markets, but you know even though You know that hasn't we haven't seen the the very high growth numbers there actually has been a steady amount of growth recently in On-site systems that are being used at a facility that are sized in order to provide that facility's Electricity and thermal needs rather than being sized to be able to export electricity to the grid We are seeing a lot of emerging drivers for CHP One of them is just the support that federal and state policy makers are giving to CHP, you know looking at industrial energy efficiency and having some goals Towards that that end last year in August there was an executive order released by the White House that set a goal for 20 or no 40 gigawatts of additional CHP by 2020 and There's also been a lot of increased state interest We've also seen a fairly large You know kind of a what we call a game changer in terms of natural gas supply and price So there's a lot more supply of natural gas prices are looking really steady and so it's looking like a really good Investment driver and then also there are some environmental drivers that are going on looking at being able to reduce emissions So with all of those things combined, you know one of the things that ICF does is maintain a database of CHP facilities Throughout the country. That's where we got that map from earlier But you'll see that even though you know towards the beginning of the 2000s there was a decrease in installed capacity We're actually tracking facilities, you know that are have been publicized as either being in development or under construction Over the next couple years and so we are seeing an increase in the amount of CHP that's been announced one of the things that we're encouraged about is that there has been a lot that's been announced and a Lot of systems don't get announced at all. So we're even considering that those figures Looking towards the future are pretty conservative and that there will be a lot more facilities that we don't even know about yet I'm gonna kind of go through this one really quick. So we already talked a little bit about the reliability and resiliency benefits that CHP can provide and You know really when looking at things like when Hurricane Sandy came and you know I think a lot of you may remember the the pictures of the New York University Hospital having to take babies out And and take them to other facilities because their backup generators weren't able to provide them with electricity and keep the facility going CHP is is you know, typically it's installed. It's operating every day It's very highly maintained The likelihood of you getting into an emergency situation and your CHP system not being able to work is very is very unlikely Whereas, you know, it's relatively common to see emergency generators not be able to to pick up and continue that load This is the report that we're going to be talking about a little more it's the I guess what combined heat and power Enabling resilient energy infrastructure for critical facilities. And so it has a lot of Additional information on how to design a CHP system for reliability It has 14 case studies in it that have both industrial and commercial Applications and how they were able to ride through either Hurricane Sandy or a couple of them are case studies about riding through other power outage events So that and there's a URL for that report So kind of in closing we're going to look at a couple pictures of the potential for growth in CHP this is a map that shows the states in in dark blue with the highest Additional capacity for CHP those are facilities that are currently installed or facilities that are currently You know built that don't have CHP that would have Energy loads likely to make CHP work And this is basically the same figures just by application So you can see that the blue part of the bar is existing CHP capacity. Whereas the kind of neon greenish is the remaining CHP technical potential so several of the large industrial categories that have a lot of installed CHP they also have a lot of room for growth and then there's a lot of growth in the commercial applications as well So this is basically in summary You know, we think that CHP provides a lot of benefits both for the actual energy user and for the whole nation So mainly I add on the energy User side the main thing is you're you're saving a lot of money using this depending on on the energy rates and where you are in the country but you can also really ride through grid disturb disruptions and You know, you can have more of a hedge and provide some stability by being able to generate your own power and your own thermal energy on-site rather than relying on the electric grid And then benefits to the nation, you know having the increased energy efficiency Really reduces greenhouse gas emissions most CHP is also Natural gas fueled and so it can take I can use you know this kind of domestic energy source it's not typically relying on on foreign energy sources and I can really put to work a lot of you know a lot of the the systems are manufactured in the US And so it can put Americans to work, you know, both building and constructing these facilities and then also maintaining them going forward I had a question slide, but I think questions are at the end. So You can go ahead and pass it over That was a great Context setting for CHP and Covered a lot of solid information, which was terrific So we will now turn to Susan Wickwire Who is the chief of the energy supply and industry branch at the climate protection partnerships division at EPA at the environmental protection agency and of course I really do think that EPA should do something about shortening all of these long names, but anyway My my big my big recommendation, right? But Susan is going to talk a little bit about EPA's perspective in terms of the kinds of information that they have available and In the voluntary programs that that they have with regard to companies and other facilities that have been working on CHP and of course if you haven't looked the EPA website contains a wealth of information in this whole area that I think is Very very useful for all of us Susan Good afternoon everyone. It's a pleasure to be here and thanks to Carol for the invitation to Share what's going on at EPA and also I'm going to talk a little bit about what's going on more broadly in the federal government Just by way of introduction I'm at EPA. I manage a group that has the CHP partnership We also promote renewable energy through the green power partnership And we have resources and tools for corporate greenhouse gas management So we're on the voluntary side in the in the air office in the climate area And we also are in the shadow of our larger better known Partnership program the energy star program so we work closely with them on a lot of these programs, which I'll be getting into The slide has some information about what's going on more broadly at the federal level And I think many of you are probably already familiar with the executive order So I didn't go through all the different elements to it, but I would just note a few Important aspects one of which was just having an executive order was a big boost to CHP I've been working on the issue Excuse me for five years or so and many have been working on the issue much longer and Nothing of this sort of magnitude or signal had been sent, you know from the highest levels in the in the government So that was something that you know, it was really well received And I think we're we're just still sort of realizing all the potential that that has and you know In planning the work that we're doing and kind of seeing what the opportunities are and so that's something that you know We're obviously Looking to advance and and looking for feedback from people about how we can even do a better job of that But so the executive order had a number of different elements. I'll just highlight a couple One of them was for EPA to help states look at how CHP and other efficiency measures And even renewable energy and that could be CHP as well Could could use these measures in their state implementation plan So if you're going to have to comply with national ambient air quality standards, how can you use these measures which you know Maybe more cost-effective than other compliance measures So as part of the executive order EPA was tasked with the with the role or the responsibility of Working with the states on these types of issues The executive order also tasked DOE with looking at its better buildings better plants program That's already in place that's looking to raise efficiency levels over a tenure period and seeing how CHP could be promoted in that context So you know sort of taking something that's that's ongoing or as an existing but just say hey We want to take a look at CHP in this in this context So that's kind of in a nutshell the executive order. There's that 40 gigawatt goal that and mentioned which is obviously important That we're you know sort of a longer term, but I'm going to focus on that on the near term here So I just put in a couple of the activities that of note The DOE is undertaking to support the executive order and and CHP more broadly They've already organized several regional dialogues around the country Little Rock, Arkansas and Columbus, Ohio and Baltimore most recently and I just hear that they're going to be out in Salt Lake City at the end of October So kind of stay tuned for that so that'll be the western version of it But really to go to the states the regions where you can look at the issues there. What's affecting the CHP market? What could what could help? incentivize CHP and industrial energy efficiency investments even more broadly, but so it's really just getting out of Washington Seeing what's out there. We hear about you know different policies incentive, you know activities going on but it's important to engage Stakeholders where they are and kind of hear their stories and see how that will inform better policy making and program delivery in in Washington They also have their clean application clean energy application centers around the country, which also gives them a regional Profile and again can address the needs at the regional level and they provide a lot of technical assistance through those And they're also working at the policy level with the National Governors Association They chose in concert with with you know different different offices around the governor's offices, you know, I think it's five states Where CHP may have some traction, but but having these kind of engagements will actually propel CHP forward even more So that's something that's underway And I think there'll be some results of that engagement and partnership very soon and then Anne mentioned the report on the resilient infrastructure that we'll hear more about later I also just would actually want to touch upon the cooperation that we have with DOE You know, we we have our you know responsibilities They have theirs, but you know a lot of times it makes sense for us to get together and and put out joint reports We you know engage stakeholders jointly But I just draw attention to this guide for a successful Implementation of state CHP policies. This was really I think the first effort to bring in one sort of document kind of You know for for people in states, you know not just do it from the Washington perspective, but say these are important issues This is how you can think about these issues and here's some examples of of where success has been achieved and You know some lessons learned that you might be able to apply in your situation So I would just draw your attention to that Now I'm going to shift gears to focus on what EPA is doing We have the CHP partnership, which I'll get into but I would be remiss if I didn't mention the energy star Industrial program they work with 24 different sectors and provide a lot of good resources for energy management Benchmarking tools energy performance indicators, so they they play a big role and we work with them to Leverage their resources the energy star reach to get the CHP word out So I think a lot of you I see a lot of familiar faces in the room Are familiar with it with the CHP partnership But I thought it'd be useful just to kind of put up our latest stats in terms of how many projects We've been helping through how many partners we have in the partnership, but it's it's it's really about what EPA with our Experience and perspective can bring to the to the to the CHP market And we really try to target our efforts very strategically and we look at the barriers that are out there So we gear the work that we're doing to the barriers And I'll be getting into that in my subsequent slides, but so we develop tools resources make them available on our website You know, we really appreciate feedback from users to say yeah This was really helpful or maybe you guys can think about this or if only your your calculator would give us this You know gas we don't have that yet or something But but I think that's something that that you know we put out there for people to use very broadly So it's just broader than our partners We also have our energy star CHP award where we recognize Superior performing systems and that really does shine a very high spotlight. We get a press release we get on the EPA You know website we you know newspapers pick it up And I think it's a way to say that there are even among CHP systems Those that are operating at a higher level and and can be recognized in this way And I'll be getting into a little bit more about how we support the executive order through some of our efforts So you heard a lot about the benefits of CHP from from and so I'm not going to kind of go through the benefits I thought what might be more interesting was to say sort of why can't we capture all the benefits? And if we're looking at these barriers to achieving the benefits, then how is EPA geared toward addressing, you know Overcoming those barriers to these getting these benefits. So on the environmental front, which is you know our area of expertise, of course You know the emission reductions that you're going to get a lot of times occur off-site In fact your on-site emissions are maybe going to go up because you're going to increase the you know production of Electricity that you might have been previously been buying and unfortunately the Clean Air Act was written many years ago has been amended But it doesn't really count emission of what emissions avoided off-site in terms of your Compliance and so that's just a limitation that that is there But it's not to say that there are you know ways that we can we can try to Incentivizer or give CHP some credit and that's the second thing that I've listed listed is this Traditional air permitting looks at input based fuel to determine the limit that your facility has in terms of emissions as opposed to looking at your Productive output your thermal and your electricity output. And so that's something that as you can see what we're doing We're trying to change that paradigm. We're working with folks inside of EPA that write the rules on our regulatory side We're working with state permitting officials so that they are aware that there are other ways to do this new ways that May not be you know really hard that they could actually do them I mean it and they you know to be there you know there one thing we've recognized is there you know resource constraints out and in these state Governments mean with you know budget cuts and everything that they've got a lot going on and a lot of requirements But so we're making it our job to educate them about CHP and how these systems can be permitted and maybe in in a different way And I would also just note that We have this emissions calculator, which is is adding to the the transparency You know helping systems say you know whether it's a an existing system or a perspective system You know these are the emission benefits that you can estimate from the system You know by comparing those emissions to what's on the grid and so you're you're displacing those emissions I think and also ably went through the economic benefits. I think you know really the upfront capital cost can be a barrier You know there's some utility policies and practices and state Practices not just the utilities, but they're following practices that aren't necessarily conducive to the project economics different Rates that they might have to pay are fairly high And then we hear often that you know if you have a payback period of more than three years If even that it might even be less than that then it's really you know challenging to get a project funded within an organization You know we're unfortunately We're not in a position to you know have grants or you know give a lot of money away So we're trying to do the next best thing which is to publicize incentives that are offered at the state level and at the federal level so we have this We had a funding database, but now we've expanded it and just as of today are launching Called d-chip because we have to have an acronym Carol Just for you, but anyway This is a really a go-to resource and it's going to be updated regularly and it's gonna have these different policies different incentives that project developers can Go to we're hoping you know the state officials can go to for example, so that would be would be very useful And I would just ask so add on that that last bullet about the the productive investment I think that you know if say a system has to comply with a regulation And maybe he wants to think about installing scrubbers or some other sort of you know Environmental error, you know emission control strategies What CHP gives you is really a productive investment So over time you're going to reap the benefits of the of the you know reduced energy cost the increased output And so it really will you know can change the the life cycle if you will Economics for a project, so that's one thing else we try to point out through some of our material Lastly, I thought I would just touch upon the third theme of this panel which is on resiliency And again, I think and you know noted a lot of the benefits of CHP in these situations where you have a crisis or a weather event That's going to affect the grid in a you know very negative way But some things to think about too. I mean you know most You know guidance says that CHP systems have to be sized to the thermal load So, you know you're not going to have sort of a you know a big generator You know because you may or may not be able to sell to the grid which could also affect your project economics So that's something to think about You also have to be in a proper configuration in order to be able to go into into island mode and that adds to your cost To unfortunately up front that you have to put in additional equipment to make you know make that possible So that's something to that that can be a challenge can be a barrier and so I think what our Role is and will be is really just saying you know. Yes, they're these costs. Yes. They're these extra You know considerations But what what are you getting in return for that and I think you know at these Critical infrastructure locations like wastewater treatment plans like medical facilities, you know all the benefits are going to outweigh You know that these these costs up front over time not just from a sort of like insurance perspective But also I think from a monetary's perspective that that the paybacks will be there You know, but it may take five ten or fifteen years to realize them And as I mentioned earlier about the d-chip we're raising awareness of the state policies the guide that we worked on with DOE Is another place that we try to highlight these and we also have a partnership with the National Association of State Energy Officials They have a specialized, you know constituency and a real reach to them and a lot of them are putting in plans and Procedures that you know will affect the energy infrastructure in their state So that's a key audience for the messages as well. And so we work with Nazio to achieve those So in closing I just you know would echo Carol's opening sentiment, you know, thank you for coming today And you know glad to have a lot of interest in CHP and I look forward to your questions. Thanks Thanks so much Susan after we've now taken this look at the Federal level and what's what's going on there and in terms of how EPA and DOE are trying to really provide a lot of guidance and assistance to to states as well as at the National facility level. We're now going to take a look at a regional level and for that We have someone who has probably Who is very very well equipped to do this Tom Bourgeois who is the deputy director of the PACE Energy and Climate Center at PACE University And he has been working on CHP issues for a number of years And in fact just a week or so ago I think was doing a CHP workshop in New York State And of course New York has been doing a lot of work on CHP through NYSERDA the research and development agency there for a number of years seeing it as an extremely important business opportunity as well as important to a lot of Government agencies in terms of delivery of their own efficient energy services Tom Thank you very much Carol and thank you all. I appreciate the opportunity to be here today For those of you not familiar with CHP. I hope that What you're hearing today that this might be the most exciting energy story that you've never heard We believe it's equally as exciting as all as the story of our friends and the PV and solar and wind and renewable space And so I I hope that's the message we get and as as Carol was saying we're proceeding from the national Level and now the regional that's me and then down to the company level So if this sounds provincial it is It's focused on the Northeast. I'm representing the US DOE's Northeast Clean Energy Application Center I also am deputy director at PACE, but we have Eight of these around the country and we're closely also with Rob Thornton here district energy international district energy association So what you're going to hear from from me is is the perspective from the Northeast and and Several leads have already been covered I'm going to Look here looking here at the technical potential for the Northeast as as Ann said Existing CHP the message that Carol asked me to go through and I have more slides than I can possibly do So I'm going to run pretty quickly and for those of you who want though I think they'll be at the website But about seven eighths of the existing CHP is is in large industrial application So what we I think what we are going to see is that where CHP is today is not where it's likely going to be in the future Where it is today is large industrial pulp and paper chemicals refining food processing and so on But what we have here We have about 16 gigawatts of potential technical potential in the Northeast Ten and a half of that is in the commercial sector five and a half in industrial And it's also not in the large size If we get large projects, we've been working hoping to work with with Rob and we'll work with Rob perhaps on an area that Aggregating larger projects in our region would be through multi-building CHP micro grids district energy systems with CHP and We're very excited about that. I'm going to spend a few minutes talking about that as well In terms of the sectors that we're looking at commercial buildings multifamily buildings Colleges and universities hospitals When you look down the list of that where the technical potential resides in our area, that's that's where the greatest opportunities are and Through our DOE center. That's that's those are the areas that we're we're really focusing on Now the message that that Carol asked me to try to focus on in my presentation With examples from New York and I'm going to pepper New York in the Northeast and I'm going to be peppering you with example examples and cases here is Economic proven reliable and clean so you know CHP. What what problems does it solve? Well? It saves money and it reduces operating costs. It's more predictable predictable energy Costs a hedge against rising costs. It's a great energy efficiency tool. It reduces greenhouse gas emissions many colleges and universities hospitals and other entities that have Climate challenge plans greenhouse gas action plans and so on are using CHP as a as the centerpiece of that for example NYU is obtaining about five eights of their greenhouse gas Emissions in the first ten years the plan are through CHP and about 30 33 percent over the entire course of the planner through CHP And finally the resiliency message following Superstorm Sandy. We've been talking about this Rob others I've been talking about this for years, but this resiliency reliability has really hit home to people post Superstorm Sandy a Hurricane Irene in the October 2011 snowstorm the Northeast It's a CHP's ability for critical infrastructure resiliency business continuity and emergency preparedness and planning So theme CHP saves money CHP was seen as the greatest single opportunity to reduce utility costs at New York Presbyterian Cornell Wild Campus Going across the border to UMass UMass medical centers expecting a payback of less than three years on their system 6.2 million in annual savings South Oaks Hospital Amityville Long Island is saving nearly 540,000 a year on a 1.4 million energy bill Montefiore Hospital reported a five-year payback on their 5.5 megawatts solar turbines system there So CHP is is saving money Efficiency well-designed CHP is highly efficient the UMass medical centers system is operating at an 86 percent total system efficiency New York Presbyterian operating at 85 percent at full load South Oaks Hospital CHP system operates at 88 percent efficiency CHP again the message here is energy efficiency. Well, this this is energy efficiency It's a it's a spectacular energy efficiency tool. Unfortunately, and I'm going to touch on this later a lot of states run energy efficiency Programs with CHP falls through the cracks. It doesn't have a home in the energy efficiency programs It doesn't have a home in the renewables programs and consequently it doesn't receive the same level of incentives that that many other technologies do get CHP markedly improves reliability New York Presbyterian system provides a hundred percent redundancy to its entire inpatient areas The UMass medical center system permits the campus to operate with virtually no supplemental grid power the UMass Amherst Campus ran through the October 2011 storm Without without a loss of power Keeping critical facilities operating operating the dorms operating Research labs and this is of critical importance The the the cost of lost research is is invaluable tens of millions and sometimes you can't even put a price on it So that reliability for for the research facilities is absolutely essential CHP versus backup generation. Well one thing we found in in Recent storms going back to even the august 2003 with there was a retrospective done on the august 2003 blackout And we found that more than half of the hospitals in New York City, for example The emergency generating systems there did not perform as specified that They would some of them turned on but went off after a few hours some of them didn't come on at all Nice sort of tells a story about the Saratoga Corrections facility, which the day before this event was august 14th In 2003 the day before it had tested as generators the emergency backups They passed without a hitch and then the next day they didn't operate the in the correction facility was dark throughout the blackout So CHP provides a continuous benefit. It's operating all the time. It's well maintained You know the those who run it know how it operates. It's It you have it gives you daily operating cost savings unlike Emergency backup generators, which are essentially a dead asset and insurance policy you buy it and hope you don't use it And you again see a CHP can offset capital costs associated with investments in traditional backup Many states don't allow you to use this for life safety, but you can certainly use it as a supplement and a lot of institutions Are using what they call comfort power or or subsidiary power and putting CHP on to take care of those loads CHP reducing emissions and CO2 again UMass Medical Center net annual greenhouse gas reductions over 41,000 tons per year reduced New York Presbyterian 27,000 tons per year South Oaks Hospital reduced their carbon footprint by greater than 1900 tons per year Knox was reduced by 95 percent from 110,000 tons per year to under just under 6000 tons in 2012 and it allowed the hospital to move from a major source permit to a minor source Again as I said at the outset here, I'm representing the Northeast so this is a bit of a provincial Look, but we believe we're a great area to do business for CHP and I think the facts bear this out We took a look at this the ICF CHP database of the new installations over the last five years or through through the period 2007 to 2011 the top four states you'll see California was first, but our region New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts rag two three and four What are some of the favorable characteristics for CHP applications? Well concerned about energy costs stabilizing your energy costs providing a hedge against rising costs Concern about reliability sustainability and environmental impacts Having long hours of operation having some existing thermal loads and having a simultaneity Between the electric and thermal demands have a good existing central heating and cooling plant and That last bullet facility energy champion is of course a very important one as well in the Northeast Factors favoring CHP we have high prices high electric prices making these economic investments low gas prices and expectations for that and significant additional incentives Some of these factors were already mentioned so I'm going to skip by this some of the deterrence I think this slide is important and something that we have to Have yet to figure out that we do have energy savings We have a tremendous story to tell just a great story But we do have to be able to get to the point where the specifying and procuring and financing and installing and operating and Maintaining these cannot be a lot more challenging or any more challenging than the status quo alternative We still have some transaction costs. We still have some new markets to develop, but I think we're we're moving very quickly there We have a lot of incentives in the Northeast some of them are quite unique and I think quite exciting and perhaps could be replicated elsewhere For example, I mentioned the mass-save program energy efficiency They allow energy efficiency in their seat in their I mean they allow CHP in their energy efficiency program Can qualify for up to seven hundred fifty dollars per kw. They also have a CHP Rec type instrument an alternative portfolio standard with alternative energy credits Both of these are pretty unique around the country and and worth taking a look at New York has a catalog program, which they've just brought to market I think this is pretty exciting pre-approved pre-qualified again reducing those transaction costs making that specifying procuring installing a Lot easier and also nice sir that wants to ensure that these systems run through blackouts So they require that they require that Resiliency be built right in they just announced a similar program for the systems greater than 1.3 megawatts And was mentioning congestion costs also you get paid bonuses if you locate in in areas on the distribution system where this provides Congestion relief we think this is important because it creates benefits for all the ratepayers Everybody benefits and the utility benefits in that instance Connecticut has an exciting microgrid loan program district energy systems and microgrids With CHP we think are an very exciting new area to explore the state's going to award 15 million net this year and government Illinois has looked to 30 million for the next year 28 projects are currently under review They will be decided on June 4th This is a schematic of one of them the Hartford Parkville cluster with 550 kw of new CHP for a school senior center and library Very quickly concluding with just a couple case studies. We recently did a case study on this project We think it's a spectacular one nursing home and hospital on a single campus They have during the blackout of August 2003. They never lost power during hurricane Sandy this operated continuously 15 days your emergency generators are highly unlikely to do that carry you through 15 days Isolated from the grid providing full power and thermal energy to the hospital the nursing home and in taking in patients from nearby Again the UMass Medical Center. We think it's another spectacular example We have a lot of case studies up at our DOE site. We'd welcome you to take a look at that and finally We are representing the CACs. We provide technical economic financial analysis Support for projects. We're in every state in the country. There's one in your state. We cover New York and New England I I do so with my partner dr. Becca Kasadovic professor of mechanical engineering at UMass Amherst I thank you for the opportunity to speak and look forward to your questions I hope I got that in in 10 minutes All right, so Tom you get an award for racing through a huge volume of Information, but it really is fascinating and when you look at what is going on and thus the stories behind All of these examples and everything so I think everybody has handouts and all this information will be up on our website as well so It's really really incredible. What's happening in the Northeast? We will now in terms of looking at at a story behind a private company in terms of what really How how companies look at this issue in terms of making decisions about what it is that they're going to do What makes the most sense for them when they are involved in having to make hard business decisions with regard to manufacturing and production and to Tell us a story behind their company and CHP is Bob a Ruho who is the manager for sustainable development environment in health and safety for Sikorsky helicopter, but Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about Want a great company and a great opportunity? Sikorsky aircraft was founded by Igor Sikorsky Reason I bring this up is Igor was an innovator He was told that he would never build a Vertical-flight device and he built the first helicopter And we take that legacy as an innovator and we bring that every day into our company As we look at Sikorsky aircraft the Black Hawk the Seahawk the R the SDM the 53k the 53e the s76 the 92 Just some of the products that we have flying every day every minute Igor's idea was that we would save lives That's all he wanted to do was save lives and as we walk in every day There's a ticker of how many lives we saved and in 2012 our products saved over 2,000 lives So if every day you walk into work and you say what motivates me It's that maybe that next day. We'll see that ticker move up every single day So with that spirit it takes Technologists takes the best of the best in the world and it takes a company with a sustainable vision And Sikorsky aircraft operates as its business as a sustainable company So we looked at how do we change our products? How do we change our processes? How do we change our operations to make sure that? We were operating within Igor's vision and a sustainable company We look at the materials on our products every single day change those out We look at the processes that we have and we change those out We want to be the best of the best. We're the largest in the where the largest helicopter manufacturer So we looked at our energy and our energy programs We undertook an engineering study the same way we would change a process in our engineering study looked at our Sikorsky Stratford Connecticut facility three million square feet 9,000 employees operates 24-7 and We said we have an opportunity the engineering the numbers worked and we installed a CHP system and I remember standing in the boardroom selling this during an economic downturn and we walked in and Said we want to spend twenty six million dollars and our leadership looked at us and said you're crazy But we showed that we had a three point two year payback We were going to save nine thousand tons of co2 emissions We were going to be able to hedge our fuel prices We're going to stabilize our product cost and so we started we embarked on that and the leadership Decided that they were going to give us the opportunity to do this Now as we travel throughout the world if I walk into Poland, I speak Polish if I go into Germany I speak German if we go into Brazil or Portugal I speak Portuguese when we go into the boardroom We have to speak business we have to talk about return on investment as a scientist I get excited over the thermodynamics of combined heat and power and all of that stuff But when you walk in we have to talk about does it make good business sense? So we installed this system When we installed the system After a year and a half of construction. I walked back into the boardroom and the president said how did it work? Did we get our return? And I said we missed our target and he slammed his hand on the table and he said I knew it I said I missed the three point two year payback I gave you a two point three year payback in instead of five million dollars of free cash Just shy of ten million dollars of free cash So does it work for us in 9,000 tons of emissions? If we were applying for our title five permit, we would fall under our title five limits Well under our title five limits Does it make sense for the company? Absolutely our employees the social aspect the sustainable piece the social aspect Our employees are excited about it We employ about 30,000 engineers that want to understand the thermodynamics every employee is excited to walk into work saying we're generating a system with a sustainable process So in the last year we were thrown two curveballs we had a hurricane and Most of the state of Connecticut was out we did not Our lights did not flicker 9,000 employees could come to work the next day We we have a navy command our navy captain along with Our army officers along with our company pilots offered the governor Seven black hawks for rescue we kept our airport open our radar systems were up Those employees that didn't have power could charge their cell phones we opened up all of our our gym They could shower our cafeteria is offered food to take home. So what did we impact? We didn't impact 9,000 people we impacted 35,000 people Everybody was able to do to take something home to their family take water home take food home charge their cell phones communicate Go on the internet pay their bills do whatever they had to And oh by the way, we didn't interrupt our production Our manufacturing was still meeting we still have people we still have a war we still have to meet those demands We still met those demands and met our schedule. So we thought that was the curveball in Five feet of snow on my back deck We stayed up We lost two of our four feeders and we stayed up and again 9,000 people trudged through the snow to come in and again our captain offered seven black hawks Seems like every time I maybe we have to stop having the number seven keep coming up But every time we have seven ready something happens. We offered seven aircraft again to the state And we were up seven by 24 and never failed So we look at it as this is what a sustainable company does Do we stop here absolutely not in over a dozen states We have facilities we have facilities in six countries and we're embarking on a program called project earth wind and fire Yes, I had a chance to name that And I'm not gonna sing I promise We're looking at every single facility from an engineering perspective and Does chp work? Absolutely is it is it stabilizing and saving Sikorsky money absolutely will we do it again? Absolutely, but I can tell you the answer is not chp the engineering will get you to chp when that happens It works every time so for Sikorsky aircraft. This is a success story We're going to have another success story and another one and another one because the investment is there So we embark on a sustainable program. We change our technologies. We change our materials. We change our systems We do it every single day We want the best and the brightest in the world We know it's hard work and we're not going to stop and that's why Sikorsky is going to be the best aircraft who are the safest safest aircraft in the most sustainable product in the world Thank you Okay, Bob. I'm inspired Terrific story and I must say when I remember a few months ago hearing Governor Malloy speak and talking about all of the Catastrophes that had happened in Connecticut since he had become governor, which he probably I don't think he caused them But anyway, he's been Governor through many many Catastrophes in it's just incredible to think about the record that you guys have established In terms of how you have put this whole business together and what that represents. So it really Is such a terrific example? I think for all of us here today to hear how Sustainability how the business how it all comes together and In terms of what you're doing. So thank you for telling that very very powerful story And our final speaker this afternoon before we open it up for your questions Is Dale Lauda who is the executive executive director of the CHP Association of the Combined Heat and Power Association? and so he will talk a little bit in terms of the Industry overall and some of the challenges and and opportunities. So Dale, welcome Thank you. I promise to be a very brief. It's a difficult following for the nation's experts on the CHP. I Just want to say one thing real briefly one of my favorite lines from the song is I could talk all night my mind goes sleepwalking while I'm put in the world to write and I Get very caught up in CHP. I think it's really exciting I think that CHP is one of the great underappreciated resources In the energy sector and I really think that it's a rare Special opportunity for all of us in this room to help put the world to write and I know that sounds Overstated, but hopefully in just a few minutes. I can show you that it's not As Carol said, I'm with the CHP Association I encourage you to go to www.chpsociation.org to learn about us We are the National Trade Association for the CHP industry Our members include people that manufacture CHP equipment users industrial folks and Universities and anyone else that might be related to the CHP industry including electric utilities Some of the folks are here in the room, but they may be some companies you might have heard of General Electric a resource dynamics national grid ICF University of Illinois and the four C's I like to think of them capstone Caterpillar Chevron and Cummins and we have others also But those are some household names that are part of our organization and it shows the breadth of who we are and our interest in CHP There's two quick points I want to mention that I think really sum up to me that my my zeal for why I think it's kind of exciting and one is Can you think of any other issue out there that is a potential solution to? At least in part environmental matters It is a potential critical infrastructure solution certainly part of it. It provides many us jobs and It helps on reliability for storms. That's pretty special. That's one Product CHP that can both help with our reliability in storms and severe weather It has us jobs. It's a dependable and reliable and critical infrastructure and it has environmental protection component That alone should be when I hear about that and I learned about that when I first found out I thought Why is there nobody doing it and I think part of it is just frankly people don't still know enough about it yet But it gets even better the second half is well surely there must be some Some impediment there must be some part of the government or some entity that really opposes CHP I that would make sense right because you have all these things going in our favor Why is it not just universally adopted? Why if they're not legislation every day about how wonderful CHP is and I thought well who's who against it? Well, it's let's see CEQ. No, they're right on board. They're real big supporters. You talked to anybody at CEQ They're they're huge DOE. No, they're fantastic. They they have a whole office on CHP and all across the country. They love us EPA they have an entire CHP office. They're here today. They I've never heard that they say nothing but wonderful things about CHP Republicans. No, no same thing. Everybody I've ever talked to great We love it Democrats same thing north south east west the White House, but we even have an executive order supporting this I've never known anything. I used to work for a number of other energy industries I've never been anywhere work for anything any entity I can't believe there is any entity even beyond the energy sector anything That's about any the public policy arena that has such universal appeal bipartisan bicameral multi-regional Everybody likes CHP. I mean it's hot. How do you not like it? And so our big struggle I think now is just showing you why I Why is so wonderful and how we can help you answer any of the questions you might have about it? To that end we are always available to answer questions I can't imagine a question that some one of our members wouldn't know the answer to but if we don't know the answer We'll be happy to send you to somebody else either some people at this table with somebody else so please contact us and Before I close I want to just mention two other quick things tomorrow. We're actually having a meeting and So some of you may know about it We have heard about already if you'd like to learn more about our meeting tomorrow we're going to have some of the same folks here in a much larger group of panelists and Matt wall for the New York Times is going to be speaking and so we're going to talk about CHP and some of the resiliency issues If you'd like to learn more about that event tomorrow Please see Winnie Walker right there in the green dress. She will help you and get you there and With that I would like to close and just say as we like to say all the time when we're not quoting all those costellable lyrics CHP is reliable energy delivered efficiently. Thank you very much. I Before we open up for for discussion just wanted to say yesterday I was talking briefly to congressman Tonco from a New York State who is a very big supporter of CHP and and Energy efficiency and renewable energy overall and he was really really hoping to be at the briefing this afternoon I kept expecting him to kind of walk through the door but So he probably is not at this point but I think that it's also an indication of How there are a lot of people within Policy circles that are aware But there are many many more who are not aware of what's really Involved in what's at stake in terms of looking at this whole role of technology and and how it can be applied in And it's almost in probably a lot of communities Almost kind of a stealth operation where people really don't know In terms of the kinds of services that is being delivered. And so a big question is how do we really? Resolve that and are there barriers that we need to address and where can we? Address them. So let's open it up for your questions now or comments. Okay, go ahead Thank you my questions for Bob from Sikorsky, sorry In some states, it's my understanding that the utilities aren't you know real keen on having their largest customers go off the grid and You know start generating the power themselves. What was the situation in Connecticut? That's part one and then part two. Do you see this? New technology or old technology as the case may be In your peer companies it has you know the experience of Sikorsky rubbed off on others Let's see, there it is Let me answer your first question. We have an outstanding relationship with the public utilities in In Connecticut as a matter of fact in all of the states that we have a presence in As we sat down and put the program together They embraced it We're 84 percent off the grid In our Stratford Connecticut facility and they embraced the the change What it does for the public utilities? If we doubled our power use they would have to increase their infrastructure So are we really taking and helping them? Avoid a capital investment because they wouldn't add 10 megawatts. They would add a thousand So they they embrace this And and understood that this was this was absolutely the right thing to do But it was not without discussion. It was not without data It was not without the proper engineering to just to walk in and say oh, we're going to do this is not the approach It's it's create a good dialogue with the public utilities Let them discuss the the engineering and the details and the technical details and You always have a win-win if it works for you it works for them and as far as our peer companies We've discussed this the way we look at sustainable development in all of our technology I know my counterparts with all of the aerospace industries We share data all the time some of them are looking at it Some of them have started to embrace this and some of them have started to construct Okay over here AB32 and that seems to have brought a halt to a number of potential CHP installations as the institutions are looking at trying to understand the Remifications of having an on-site power system What actions or understandings do you all have? Yes, I can speak from from our northeast perspective and we we would have I have a counterpart Tim Lipman and Vince McDonnell in California Who would be available but? We do work very closely with projects. We help them with Coinciding and permitting issues we help them understand the tariffs what happens when you Put in a CHP system and you know you go from your parent tariff to a standby tariff We help them model that out. What are the interconnection issues the interconnection studies They might have to be done What are the costs going to be if you have to help reinforce the system in your locality due to your your project So That's part of what the us do e's clean energy application center do offer To to customers on a on a one-to-one basis. We do actual technical and economic feasibility studies, but also we we work closely on these utility interface issues the co-citing and permitting issues You know interconnection standby tariffs and so on and we also we don't advocate But we do try to point to what we consider optimal designs You know if some state has has found a way of of approaching a a standby tariff that seems to be More appropriate or acceptable We try to replicate models around the country, you know We don't get involved in specific legislation, but we do try to work on best practices and optimal incentive designs Does that answer the question or CHP I Could not really speak to that because I haven't really studied how that would we don't have that we have reggie, but our Our our facilities are not captured under reggie Maybe I could just add that in our development of that policies and incentives database that I just discussed, you know We had to look at a number of different state energy plans and and looked at california's and I was actually surprised That they you know, I mean they recognize it's a problem We've heard that from a number of places And I think they recognize that that you know because of this this on-site off-site issue in the emission reduction potential I think there's an awareness there whether they can do anything about it in the short term But they did indicate in that plan that that was something that they were focused on to try to address and as they evolved Their cap and trade program out there. So I think that's something they're sensitive to But it isn't an issue that unfortunately if it's not remedied You know in the legislation itself and I think even you know in waxman marky, you know years ago There was also chp issues there. So I think it's just a perennial problem But you know, I think the european union has come up with some ways to deal with that And maybe there's some you know lessons learned for for others, but I think it's something they're aware of It's just it's just a reality But it sounds like it's something that whether it's at the national level or state level that there needs to be some Model language perhaps put together that can help people figure out a a more appropriate treatment of that So that we don't run into that barrier is what it sounds like you're you're all saying Okay Other okay, we'll go here first and then back here. Okay, go ahead Jennifer key for with the alliance for industrial efficiency And I'm well my question isn't for an but it's inspired by an You showed the a graphic that I love that's got kind of a huge disparity between chp deployment to date I think in blue or then the potential and Everyone was that's kind of a lack of education People know more about chp. They're going to see how great this is and we can do this, of course We're on the hill what can be done in progress to help Reduce yeah help realize Well, I think that's that's exactly we're grappling with right now is what is the what are the Issues of that's why we're having a frankly web in this meeting now and of the meeting tomorrow So we can better understand how to communicate this these the barriers that the industry faces and how to build support for For breaking down the barriers and moving forward and I'm not sure that I'm sort of just mystified sometimes by why why it is a continuing Continuing problem. I'm not that it's it's an issue that that's confusing because we We have all these advantages that it's out there as an industry Yet somehow it's we seem to be always going back to square one. Someone's asking where we're back It's been around for a long time. They see them working on the issue for a long time. It's been out there But but it we're having a hard time getting the market to to respond to the Stimuli that we're trying to get out there. I don't know. Like I said, that's what we're here We're having a meeting tomorrow to try to get our arms around better about what our next step should be anybody has any other thoughts Or tom, are you gonna go ahead? I don't I don't oh this is on um You know, I think that uh, one of the main barriers and and you know, we had a one of the first questions I I think it's really great to hear about, you know, so korsky and and how they Were able to have a good relationship with their utility That is not always the case. And so we we actually have seen that as being a pretty big barrier for a lot of these systems you know utilities And and the kind of whole utility industry is is pretty entrenched in the way it works And so I think as you know any type of of process when you're trying to change the status quo It's not going to be easy And so I think that's where chp is is that you know utilities are are used to operating a certain way They're being forced now in many cases to have energy efficiency programs Which is great, uh, but you know, it's it As a business I understand I don't want to sell less of my products. I I get it, you know But at the same time, I think there needs to be you know, we have to figure out this balance between um, you know You know having utilities be supportive of things that are better for their customers, you know having I think it's it's good for them, you know to say hey So korsky, we're going to work with you because we want to keep you as a customer or we want to keep you in our state Instead of having you go somewhere else where they could either self-generate or they could get lower Uh, you know electricity and thermal prices. So, you know, especially being somewhere in like in connecticut They don't have the lowest prices in the country. So if that's a you know, a big driver and their cost um, you know, so There is a push and pull there and so there has been some, uh, legislation that's come out that are Kind of proposals that are kind of seeking to to address this But I think it is, you know at the state regulatory level that, you know Regulating their utilities in the state and even just, you know, some some federal action that could be Taken to push them in the in this way that's saying, you know, this is a technology that should be Promoted and if it doesn't fit in that, uh energy efficiency bucket It doesn't fit in the renewable bucket. Maybe it needs its own bucket and we can, you know, move forward with that okay, tom I'd like to second what ann just said There We are making progress. I think at the utility interface, but there are still a lot of challenges at the utility interface as well and perhaps we need to work on some alternative business models or some some Procedures methods and procedures to let the utilities have more of a stake here One thing I would add though is I I think we have seen and this is Connecticut and you can correct me if I'm wrong But I've never seen anything like there was there was a period of time when they kind of put a multi-pronged approach where they waived The standby tariff they removed the standby tariff they Reduced they waived the tnd gas charges and just charged commodity rates for gas They instituted a low interest loan program They paid the site owner an incentive for installing chp They pay the utility an incentive for 200 dollars per kw So they came at it from five different directions and consequently, uh, I believe in a 30 month period There were 81 applications for more than 300 megawatts in that one state So, you know, I think and and and it did come around. Uh, it was all coalesced around A tnd congestion need, uh, which was the rationale for it And I think that it was one of the measures that did help serve that need So I think we can get there But I think maybe it's a multi-pronged multi-faceted approach and also one that brings the utilities in much more closely as partners Did you want to comment bob or anything? Okay. Yeah, which is which is really interesting in terms of looking at Utilities looking at pucs as players in terms of everybody looking at what the Issues are the problems are that how they could be resolved and So that all the players are brought together, um, which Does make sense and in terms of trying to figure out also where there are gaps. I think that someone also mentioned about various states have efficiency programs or renewable programs where chp Falls through the cracks where it's just not eligible for any of that and that therefore Um, uh, of course, why would anybody look at that where they're it's not part of the policy that they're playing with So there were a couple other questions out here. Okay bob first and then And it's been it was a struggle then to keep up interest Uh On your lists Yeah, we're definitely seeing a lot more action and a lot more states in in the past traditionally there have been Very kind of isolated pockets of the country that unless you're a very large industrial And you kind of have those economies of scale It's harder on you know, the smaller ones if you have a multifamily building or if you're a small hospital It's been harder to make the economics work That situation is changing in a lot of states mainly because we continue to see electric prices increase And gas prices now are are much lower than they were several years ago You know, so yes, we've definitely seen some some increases in multifamily I think there are You know, there are certain applications like that that tend to be very regionally focused because there are certain developers That are are used to working with a certain application And they are located in in, you know, the northeast especially has has a big Market so You know, I think for multifamily it's continuing to grow. I I don't know if it's at the pace we'd like to see yet but we keep seeing a lot of really Kind of exciting things for the future Okay, uh last question. Okay David Peyton with the Vermeer Corporation There's been a lot of discussion about gas as a fuel source. What are the prospects for wood? As a fuel source. So I think Well, uh, again speaking for the northeast we do definitely see interest in places like Vermont, New Hampshire Some parts of massachusetts main for wood biomass based systems It does You know, there are some good opportunities there and there's some good examples of projects there including a hospital And some other hospitals interested as well and you just mentioned district systems I know there's interest in in both thermal and thermal flash electric District systems that are biomass based in In many parts of new england and in upstate new york. So yes, indeed. There is definitely an interest where the resources available Um, and I might just mention that rob thorton who is the president of uh, international district energy association is also here so that if I know that he could also speak to specific projects That have been going on with regard to those systems as well Rob, okay So the state so the city is actually building the heating network to supply District heating to you know a dozen or so buildings One of the things that happened with biomass in the last You know two years, particularly massachusetts was a manor met study Uh, and it kind of put a chill on biomass electricity only And really what it's now pointing to is greater efficiency, which means recovering the heat Uh, so now we're starting to see legislation where biomass is going to have to be a 60 70 efficiency, which means you can't throw the heat away You've got to really use it So, you know, we see the trend for smaller scale systems where there's a you know, a significant thermal load And you can really capture all the efficiency Okay, can I just add one thing? We looked at Biomass as we started our engineering study Atzakorsky and it was sourcing the biomass material a good sustainable supply We did have some that we generated But we knew that we would just exceed that rapidly but our system As we look at our aircraft systems, we look at multiple redundancy And as we're trying to harden our infrastructure, we have a dual fuel system. It's uh number two fuel oil as well as gas It runs on gas But if something happens if the gas system is interrupted, we can flip over in a few minutes right to oil So we looked at biomass as possibly being that other alternative fuel But it was sourcing especially in our region that that became the issue I would like to thank you all very very much for being here and again the Presentations and the video will for the briefing will be up on our website And so if you've got questions for any of the speakers, please feel free to contact them or to let us know And we will try to get you the answers to questions And please let your colleagues know about this too because I think there's so much important information That that was given to us today that we should try to follow up on thank you very very much for being here And I want to thank our wonderful wonderful panel for their terrific presentations Thank you all for coming