 May I welcome Her Royal Highness Princess Astrid of Belgium. I would now like to welcome to the Lecter and Lowy Institute Board Member, Ms Gillian Broadbent. Thank you. Your Royal Highness, Minister, your Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, it is my pleasure on behalf of the Chairman of the Board, Sir Frank Lowy, to welcome you here today to our beautiful headquarters at 31 Bligh Street. Let me begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which the Institute stands, the Gadigal of the Iora Nation. I pay my respects to their Elders, past and present. The Lowy Institute is a leading international policy think tank. We look at the world from an Australian perspective, bringing Australia to the world and the world to Australia. We publish research on issues from extremism to climate change to geopolitics, and we provide a platform for many global leaders. In the past year, we have hosted a number of European leaders, including 12 months ago in this room via Zoom, President Lotomiya Zelensky of Ukraine. One thing we have seen in the aftermath of Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the democratic countries around the world are tightening their relationships with each other, including Australia, European countries such as Belgium. Part of the DNA of democracies is an obligation to protect and uphold human rights. This obligation has to be discharged by businesses as well as governments. It is not just parliaments that need to consider the issue, but boardrooms. I look forward to the panel's important discussion on this subject. Today, we're honoured to host your Royal Highness Princess Astrid of Belgium and Belgium Foreign Minister Haja Labib, as well as the extended Belgian economic mission to Australia. In a moment the Foreign Minister will deliver some remarks and then sit down for a conversation with the Institute's Director of Research, a proud Belgian Australian. But first let me introduce Belgium's Minister of Foreign Affairs, Haja Labib. Ms Labib came to politics after a long career in journalism. She has covered political and social issues across the world, including as a reporter and special envoy in the Middle East, Chad, Morocco and Afghanistan. In July last year she was appointed Belgium's Minister of Foreign Affairs, European Affairs and Foreign Trade. Minister, the lectern is yours. Your Royal Highness, dear ministers, excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to begin by paying my respects to the traditional custodians of the lands, the Gadigal people. I'm really honoured to be here today and I really would like to thank the Lowy Institute for International Policy as Australia's leading think tank on international affairs. I know this institute has been at the forefront of international policy debates and I'm very pleased to take part in them. I think today's session will bring its own contribution on important public policy fields, business, human rights and sustainability. At first it can be seen as serving very divergent objectives and indeed history is full of examples showing that business can be synonymous with exploitation, both of nature and of man too. We know that human exploitation today, in addition to being immoral, leads to violence, war and instability and we are all conscious now that our planet has its limit and needs to be protected. We understand the importance of generating profits and creating value while respecting human rights and sustainable goals. Actually, they are not mutually exclusive and I'm even convinced of the contrary. Businesses can be more profitable and I'll go even further, businesses can be at the forefront of the advancement of human rights and they can be an engine for a more sustainable future. I'll give you an example. During the Covid pandemic, 19 millions of doses of Pfizer vaccines manufactured in Belgium were sent around the world to Africa and Australia as well. This has saved lives thanks to a technology, RNA messenger, that we are now developing in Africa through local partnerships. I remember during our last previous economic mission with her Royal Highness, Princess Astrid, we were able to visit a research centre in Senegal that will soon allow the country to deal with the next pandemic. I hope it will not come too quickly and to produce vaccines for the rest of Africa. It's a win-win business which goes beyond selling vaccines. It's about sharing our expertise for the future and well-being of the whole humanity. But sometimes, of course, you have to force things a bit. A common sense doesn't always prevail and of course strict legislation is needed. We find these conditions, for example, in free trade agreements such as the one that the European Union and Australia are currently negotiating in which I hope to see concluded very shortly. TSD reviews have been becoming a key element to this trade agreement. Respect for the environment as well as working conditions, production rules, everything must go in the direction of respect for man and nature for sustainable development. These conditions often complicate negotiations, especially when sanctions mechanisms are demanded and considered unavoidable and necessary. And Belgium is one of these countries which sometimes puts us behind other countries. The danger, of course, is that other countries will conclude trade treaties and make business without bordering with environment standards or human rights. And that's why partnering with countries like Australia is really important and valuable. And there is still much to be done, but we are moving in the right direction. Last year, the European Commission proposed a European directive on corporate sustainability due diligence. The landmark corporate sustainability due diligence directive proposal is in the final stages of the legislative process. It would require large companies operating in the EU markets to identify and address adverse human rights and environmental impact in their own operations as well as those of their subsidiaries and their value chains. One of the many examples of the EU's efforts in making our economy more fair and more sustainable is the recently adopted deforestation regulation. By promoting the conception of deforestation-free products and reducing the impact on global deforestation and forest degradations, the new regulation aims to bring down worldwide greenhouse gas emission and biodiversity loss. Governments, however, cannot act alone in this. We all share responsibility of ensuring that businesses operate in a manner that promotes respect for human rights, sustainability and economic development. Both states and business enterprises have those obligations and responsibilities. Many, including in business community, are aware that change is needed. Over a decade ago, the UN Human Rights Council endorsed the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, making it the alternative global framework in a key area of human activity. They have proved to be essential common framework for all stakeholders to address business-related human rights abuses. They have helped to achieve a real change. It's important to note that many companies have taken significant action to meet their human rights responsibilities under the UN guiding principles. Many are taking proactive steps. For example, some companies are implementing supply chain audits to identify and address any human rights violation within their supply chain. Others are engaging with local communities to better understand the potential human rights impact of their operations and to find ways to mitigate these risks. If they are doing so, it's not just for ethical reasons, but also because it has a positive impact on their reputation. We all know how important reputation is for companies today. And I'm sure that Belgium and Australian businesses leaders can inspire each other to further their action in promoting human rights and sustainable development. To resume, I'm convinced it is only together that states and companies can implement the three pillars of the UN guiding principles. States have the duty to protect, business has responsibility to respect and victims must be able to assert their rights. This is why it was my conclusion. I thank you for your attention and for your interest. Thank you very much. Koninklijke Hoheit, Minister, Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, and a hearty West Flamese welcome to the Lowy Institute. I am R.V. Lemayu, our research director and our think tank. I am proud to welcome you to Australia. Thank you, Minister Ajalabi, for this captivating speech. I also thank you for taking part in a very important discussion on this very important subject and joining the foreign minister and myself for this panel conversation are two leading Australian experts in the field of business and human rights. To my far right, Dr. James Cocaine is the anti-slavery commissioner for New South Wales. He was appointed to this newly created position, becoming only the second anti-slavery commissioner worldwide in August 2022. James has previously led the UN University Center for Policy Research, the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations Study Group on Human Trafficking and the Transnational Crime Unit of the Australian Attorney General's Department. We also have Professor Justine Nolan, and she is the director of the Australian Human Rights Institute and a professor in the Faculty of Law and Justice at the University of New South Wales. Justine has been a key driver of the Australian business and human rights movement over many years. Her research focuses on the intersection of business and human rights and in particular on supply chain responsibility. So I think you can agree, Minister, that we've assembled the right panel for us today. Thank you, all of you, for being here. So we'll have about 20 minutes of discussion. It's a condensed hour. It's a very busy schedule for the Belgian delegation who are a little bit jet lagged and have been going from one appointment to the other. So at any point, Minister, if you need me to slow down, please tell me. But let me begin with you, Minister. I mean, you're a relatively new arrival in Belgium's famously Byzantine, that's called a Byzantine federal political system. And if you think Australian politics is challenging, try a career in Belgian politics. And I think you're in for a surprise. Now, as foreign minister, you're dealing with the global system, not just the Belgian political system. And you're not just dealing with countries, you're dealing with businesses, big businesses who operate over multiple jurisdictions. I mean, I'm thinking of Amazon or Microsoft and so on. So how large a challenge is working together across countries, across governments, but also with businesses? And how does Belgium, as a relatively small country, try to get outcomes in this space? We are in the middle of the very good place, Europe. So we are very well connected. And everybody knows us because we are also the siege of many international institutions, NATO, European Union, and hundreds of official institutions. We have 100,000 diplomats in Brussels in our countries, regarding the institutions in Brussels. So they know us, I think. So even if we are a small country, but by the way, I don't like to say that because it's not true. Regarding European Union as a whole, we are the eighth country in number of inhabitants. So it's not, it is something, I mean, it's sizable. And we host also a Google, a siege of Google in Wallonia. And Pfizer, as I mentioned during my speech, is located in Brussels. We have been able to manufacture the vaccine that has been sold to the rest of the world. So we are the place to be, I must say, unbelievably. Yeah, that's right. I think you can safely say that. I mean, Belgium has this incredible convening power as well. We have chocolate and beer. Always, always helps. Always. Yes. But we have also expertise in climate change, which is the global challenge that we are all facing, which in Australia, as well as in the rest of the world. And we are discussing right now agreement trade with regarding green hydrogen offshore winds. We have a coast of only 60 kilometers. It's not regarding the island of Australia, but we are champion in offshore winds. So, yeah. We just wait and the world is coming to us. And if they don't, we go with Ohio Highness Princess Street in mission with 350 entrepreneurs, academics with us. And yes, we have some results. Some clouds. Look, the other thing that Belgium is known for is obviously Brussels is the host of the European institutions. And I might actually turn to our Australian panelists now because what happens in Brussels has global ramifications. I think it was Anu Bradford, a Columbia law professor who has a book called the Brussels effect, which is that the EU is a regulatory superpower. Through its market size, it can shape the international business environment, elevating standards worldwide and leading to a notable Europeanization of many important aspects of global commerce. And of course, Belgium being a founding member and host of the EU institutions has a very important role that way in terms of your influence. But there are ways and if you're thinking about companies, I mean, even mighty Apple has had to change its charging cable, right? As a result of European dictates on what qualifies as universal standard. So that is a prime example of the Brussels effect globally that has ramifications on third countries, on countries like Australia, but also the wider, the wider region. James, can you explain the EU effects on our thinking? And also, I mean, how do we ensure that in Australia we are keeping pace and not leaving our businesses at a disadvantage as a result of what's happening in Brussels? Bedanked. Merci, Hervé. Thank you. I think the impacts of decisions taken not only in Brussels, but in European capitals are already being felt in boardrooms in Australia. I've been talking to corporate directors and boards for several weeks now about the fact that modern slavery risks are not just a compliance question, not just something to think about how you manage your supply chain. They're beginning to become a material risk that directors have a responsibility, a judiciary duty to address. And I say that in part because of things going on in Europe. We have shareholder actions happening in Europe around companies like Volkswagen and BMW. We have prosecutions for crimes against humanity, against garment manufacturers in France. We have legislation being adopted at the national level in the Netherlands and other places. These are channels through which this risk is crystallising already for Australian boardrooms. And this is before we come to the all-important corporate sustainability due diligence directive that we can anticipate will come from Europe next year. And we'll shape the way that capital flows to Australia from Europe and that goods flow from Australia to the single market. In addition, just a few days ago, the European Parliament moved out of committee a process to create a forced labour import ban and marketing instrument. So it is possible that in a few years, if you are an Australian producer and you are unable to demonstrate that your products, perhaps your produce grown here in New South Wales, was not made with forced labour, you may not be able to export to the single market. Now, we have similar things going on in Australia. In New South Wales, we have the first mandatory human rights due diligence legislation, but it's very narrow. It's only about modern slavery and it only applies to government departments, local councils, universities and a few other public buyers. It doesn't cover companies. We do have company level legislation at the federal level, but again, only for modern slavery. And I'm going to defer to Justine and others in the room who are much better qualified to talk about that than I am. Fantastic. Thanks. Well, that takes me to Justine. Justine, you were appointed to the Australian government's modern slavery expert advisory group. The federal government recently commissioned a review of Australia's modern slavery act, which was handed down in July, I believe. What is the scale of the problem here? Why do we need reform? Yeah, that's a great question, because I think a lot of time when people think about human rights abuses and modern slavery, particularly in connection with business, they tend to think about it as happening somewhere else, things that are happening overseas in a way. And I think probably people in Belgium are not too similar to us in the way that we think about that. It's often not within just our country, but it's happening somewhere else. But as James knows in his role, it's happening right here in New South Wales. It's happening in other parts of Australia as well. It's happening within Europe and outside Europe. The scale of the problem is hard to say. The figures this year show that there's estimated to be more than 25 million people working as forced labourers, so working largely in private supply chains, so working for corporations in supply chains. And the idea of forced labour, when we think about slavery, people tend to think about the transatlantic slave trade and people being tied up and physically beaten. That is still true in some cases, but now it's often more threats. It's psychological intimidation, harassment that will hold people to jobs and exploit them and lose their ability to change work. And so that is true whether you're operating in a developed country or a developing country in the global north and the global south. So the scale of the problem is large. Often when I talk to business and particularly Australian companies, they might say, we've looked and we can't find anything and I will say, well, you're not looking hard enough. And often people will say that modern slavery is something hidden in supply chains. Well, it is often in lower tiers of supply chains, but given the awareness of it now, it's not so much hidden. I think that it's a fact that we look away. And so we know that it's there, but often we don't want to really delve in because then we are required to do something. And so what we're seeing in coming out of Europe at the moment with the due diligence directive is the idea that just companies reporting on risks isn't enough. What we want to see from companies is preventative action. So identify the risk but take action. And that's the idea around due diligence so that we're going to act, not just find the problem but act on it. I know we've spoken mostly about the need to look at home to clean up our acts here at home first before we start lecturing abroad. But there are, I think, important theaters in Southeast Asia and the Pacific Island States. This is for Australia, our near abroad. I'm thinking perhaps for Belgium, the analogy might be Sub-Saharan Africa and the historical ties that you have there. These are often opaque business environments where we are trying to engage, shape, condition the business environment to the betterment of human rights. And at the same time, there's a balance to be struck because there is also the issue of, for example, of debanking in the Pacific Island's region as a result of anti-terrorism legislation. Big banks are pulling out because it's too risky that legislative and regulatory burden is too much. So how do you think we should factor in business and human rights and our engagement abroad, particularly in difficult circumstances where we want to engage, we want to make a difference, but obviously the regulatory standards are not up to scratch? The answer is a compromis à la Belge, a Belgian compromise. I think this is really a critical question for our region and for us in our region and not purely a technical one, actually a highly strategic one. There's a fascinating piece by Kurt Campbell and Roush Doshi, who some of you will know are very influential in the Biden administration on Asia policy from early in 2021, talking about the fact that in the Asia Pacific, the way you project influence is not only through military supply lines, it's through supply chains. This is a maritime mercantile space that we live in. The way that economies are structured, the way that power is developed in the region is through commerce. So how we regulate our supply chains and our production and distribution has impacts on who has power within any given country. Now in this country, we have natural allies in the middle class across the region who have an interest in property rights and an interest in human rights, I would say. Human rights is not my mandate. I should be very clear. Nor is foreign policy. I don't speak for any government, but if we want to prevent things like modern slavery and extreme exploitation happening, we have to think upstream. We have to think about how does that happen in the first place and regulate our commerce in a way that ensures sustainability. And this goes to some live issues of the day. Let me take a very practical example. There's a very big push in this country, certainly in this state, to encourage a just transition, a transition to renewable energy. Yet if you buy solar panels in this country, the chances are that they include a component, polysilicon, made at least in part by forced labor in Xinjiang in China. So it is very difficult in this country to buy solar panels and be sure that you are not buying a product of modern slavery. There's a small part of the supply that is free of modern slavery, but very difficult to scale, very difficult to get access to. If we want business to rapidly transition to decarbonization, while without sacrificing human rights, we need government and business to work together to provide alternative supply. Solar panel supply chains are highly responsive to tariff policy, industrial policy, trade policy. We need those free trade agreements to protect against incentivizing production and trade of goods made with forced labor. So there's clearly a role for government and business to play here. And it goes not only to technical questions, but to really important strategic questions of international diplomacy. I think you're very right to point out that this needs to be understood against the backdrop of competition in our region, especially but the world over values and technical standards in supply chains and elsewhere. And that's critical to Biden's, U.S. President Biden's Asia strategy. But obviously Europe still has a big role to play in all this. I don't think Europe is often factored in enough, at least in our own thinking. I wonder, James Orgestine, where does Europe fit into this in sort of the Australian view on business, human rights and supply chain responsibility? Well, at the moment, Europe is the leader on this. What we're seeing coming out of Europe is influencing the rest of the world and will influence the rest of the world. The review of the modern slavery act, which you mentioned at the start by, commissioned by the Australian government earlier this year, recommended similar measures to what Europe is proposing now. Some of the laws we've seen in recent years from France, Norway, Germany, the Netherlands have actually been then leading this way and trialling the approach of the European Corporate Sustainability Directive. So I think in this business and human rights space, what Europe is doing now is setting standards that others like Australia will follow. So it has, as James mentioned at the start, it will have a very clear impact on the way Australian companies are going to do business and their access to the European market. The other thing I might add in response to your earlier question around sort of how we think about these issues is that, as James pointed out, government has a really important regulatory role. But also what we're not doing yet is we're not accurately pricing the cost of human rights into business. And that's on business and on consumers, that if we still expect to be able to buy the very cheap solar panel or the $10 t-shirt, we're not costing the labour that goes into that. And those companies that are accurately costing it are not always rewarded by behaviour. So I think that we have to, you know, and I think consumers have a role but it's a limited role. I think business has to lead on this. And it starts to, what we're seeing from business is they're very much quantifying the cost of complying with environmental regulations at the moment all around the world. But we're not seeing them do that in relation to human rights. So the foreign minister mentioned that some companies are taking steps around engagement with stakeholders and monitoring their workplaces, etc. All of these are the cost of doing business and they need to be factored into products and the cost of a supply chain. So that's that idea of mainstreaming human rights into business. I think we've got an appetite to do that in relation to climate where we link climate with the economy, but human rights is always lagged in that area. So I think that's a role. And the other I think the role for governments is this sort of top-down and bottom-up approach is that we need to talk to business, we need to think about regulation and trade, but we also need to support civil society who are advocating for this, particularly in the Pacific, who are seeing some of their lands, some of the seabeds being changed dramatically. And the governments are going for that very low, you know, the best price they can get on the exploitation of resources. And so we need to have civil society all around the world supported by often foreign aid in order that they, you know, can advocate to protect their environment and protect their workplaces. Look, it's also, I mean, climate change is a big new dynamic in some sense. We've known about it for years, but it's really starting to bite hard and become reality. It's not a forecast anymore. And when we talk about, I believe in your remarks, Minister, you also mentioned that, you know, the human rights impacts of climate change. And I wonder if could you say anything about what Belgium is doing on that front of climate change, human rights in other countries or within Belgium itself? By the way, we follow the European standards. We are on the same page. And as historical fundraisers, we inspire some of them of that rule. We participate on the writing and as we will have the presidency, European presidency in January, we will continue on that path because we will also have the duty to think about the future. So our main goal will be to achieve the legislation work in six months only, because there will be the election in the 9th of June. And then to think about the future and to try to the strategic goal for 2429. And of course, climate change will be in its net for sure. If I just one final question, I might then turn to the audience for a rapid lightning fire round of three questions, because we are a little bit pressed for time. Justine, this one's for you. I mean, do you see Europe as being the gold standard to follow for Australia or are the things that you would actually defer in some sense from what the Europeans are doing? Yes, I mean, the gold standard in theory at the moment, because of course Europe has got plans but New Zealand. Well, I mean, there's always I mean, in terms of what their aspiration is, yes, because that's a higher standard than what we have at the moment, but Europe is yet to put it into practice. So that's when the rubber hits the road to see how much of it becomes real. It's still being negotiated in relation to it. And of course, what Europe has at the moment could also be improved on. There are many ways of the directive that there are aspects of it that could be improved. And I think in this field, in particular, when people's lives are at stake, we always want to see where we can get the best possible, but also pragmatic solution because it's no use having a standard that no one will ever implement. But at the same time, we should be aiming high. We live in a world where people simply shouldn't be working as slaves. And that is the standard that we should all abide by. There shouldn't be argument about that. And there is an argument in theory. There's an argument in practice about how we get there. So I think it's the gold standard in theory, but I still think it can be improved on and Europe is working on that. Are there things that Australia is doing, which Europe could usefully learn from? I think our public procurement rules here in New South Wales are actually in force. They're binding. They've been binding for over a year now. And there's a lot for us to learn. I think rather than seeing this as a competition, what we should recognize is that we're all actually headed in the same direction. And some of the most intractable problems, like solar panels, are going to require deep cooperation to understand how we can all gain from fashioning new solutions. We need alternative supply of solar panels. That requires significant capital investment over over half a billion dollars for every factory, several years to bring online, highly responsive to tariff and trade settings. We're only going to come up with those solutions if we don't compete for who's at the front of the race, but actually work together. Right. Well, we have about five minutes for a very quick round of questions. Now, there are a lot of incredibly talented, plugged in members of the audience. And I'm sure there would be questions for a number of our panelists. So if you do have a question, please raise your hand. We'll take three at a time. And if you'd be willing to just introduce yourself so that we know who you are before making your question. Well, we know who you are, but the ambassador, Michel Goffin, has his hand up. And then we'll go to the gentleman at the back. And if there's a third person, don't be shy. We're all in good company here. We'll be looking for a third question. But beginning with the ambassador. Maybe a naughty question to James, but all the workers from the Pacific Islands allowed to work in Queensland to pick up vegetables and stuff like that. I mean, it's not forced labour, of course, but sometimes it disrupts the society back home. The families are without the husband and stuff like that. So I mean, what's your take on that? Is that normal labour or a bit borderline too difficult to make? I mean, these people are happy to come. They have higher salary, of course, but it's very disruptive in back home, in Tonga, in Tuvalu, because the husband is in Australia, New Zealand, and not at home. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. Between July 2018 and May 2023, workers from the Pacific in Australia, under the Pacific Assisted Labour Mobility Scheme and its predecessor, remitted over 180 million Australian dollars. I think that's about 120, 130 million euros to their home countries. This is a powerful driver of development in those countries. They also paid 81 million dollars in tax income tax here in Australia. So through their labour, they are contributing a lot of value for us here in Australia. Now, that said, these schemes need to be carefully managed, or there are risks for a minority of people to fall into exposure to forced labour, debt bondage and other cases. I've just been in the western part of New South Wales talking to workers who've been in this situation. I've had three workers from this scheme call me in the last 48 hours to seek assistance and support, as I am required to provide them under our New South Wales legislation. Two workers recently from this scheme were referred by the federal police to the federal support to trafficking people program. Those are small numbers. There are more than 40,000 people here working happily under this scheme. But we have to make sure we get this right. And I'm already talking closely with the federal authorities to think about how we can support them, how we can support state authorities, how we can support local communities to ensure that when people come here, they have a happy experience and that these partnerships are partnerships for prosperity. That's how they should be. Now we also have to acknowledge our history in this country. We have a terrible experience 150 years ago, where 62,000 people were kidnapped from the Pacific and brought to start our sugar industry in this country, up around where I live in Northern New South Wales and Southern Queensland. So there are nasty resonances for us. In Belgium, there are historical legacies also around slavery to live with. We all, it's a reality of the modern global economy that vulnerable people are too easily exploited. So we need to work together to make sure that these natural exchanges of labor and trade don't lead to the exploitation of vulnerable people. One more question at the back there, gentlemen. If you can introduce yourself. Thank you. Fuzz kiddo. Be slavery free. And we do the global chocolate scorecard. So Belgium features well within this. One of the struggles that we have in raising the human rights issues that we have is that when legislation is coming in and the EU due diligence human rights is a typical example of this and the deforestation, deforestation area in the largest cocoa producing country, which is Côte d'Ivoire, has about probably 1 million people who are producing cocoa in that area. So when it comes to human rights, it's the mixture and the complexity of it all, which is how do we then get to work with those? Do we say, okay, to 1 million people there, you no longer can export cocoa? And we love what is happening in the intent of the legislation there, but it's the regulation and it's the practice. Australians are very practical. It's like, how the hell are we going to do this? And with that, picking up and I think probably the most important part is how do we get the harmonisation of legislation around the world? Country by country, region by region is not going to do it. We actually, so how do we get that harmonisation and legislation as well? And I know as well, we despite the UN guiding principles where there's no regional framework, at least for Asia Pacific minister, you wanted to... Yeah, we just for the moment tried to harmonise the legislation inside the EU. And it's something between 27 countries without, with different mindsets, cultures, and maybe tomorrow we will be 33 or 35. So it's a real challenge. And I must say that I've been confronted with what you just explained right now regarding some treaty that we refuse to sign with Latin America, for example, because they don't respect our values or, I mean, yes, deforestation and protection of human rights and so on. And they answered something very interesting. They told me it's a new kind of colonialism because you impose your rules and we are not able to respect it. And the danger also, as I mentioned in my speech is that when you're not there, someone else is going to to make the trade in your place. And so it's an empty place. And I know that China is your first commercial partner for Australia, but I'm sure that when China exploits, have some contract in Africa, in DRC, they don't follow the same rules as us. So I don't know what you think, but I'm confronted in such an issue. I mean, that is the dilemma of human rights, you know, that we have universal standards for human rights, but they're not always universally implemented. A treaty agreement is obviously a negotiation between countries. And what I think, again, what we're seeing with Europe with such a large block agreeing to standards around the directive and the deforestation legislation, because human rights are in by stealth in the deforestation legislation. Yes, it's focused on climate and biodiversity, but it also has social standards in there. So companies are all of a sudden faced with the fact that, you know, they sort of this happened and now they have to implement it and they're like, oh, it's too hard. But I think we're at the point now where it is hard, we have to recognize it's hard. Treaty negotiation will inevitably allow compromise. But what we're talking about this is people's basic rights and the dignity of all of us. So, you know, the way that we produce goods, the way that we buy and sell goods, the way that we trade, we don't want to do it on the back of Slades. We don't want to do it at the cost of people's basic dignity. And so there are points where countries will walk away. And that's how history works. And eventually we'll get to a point where standards are respected. I think that's what Europe is trying to do now to set a standard that others will follow in relation to this. But will there be, you know, will there be those countries that don't do it? Will there be those companies that don't? That is always the way. But the rest of us have to work through looking at regular regulation around forced labor bans around investment to then try and pressure those countries and companies to start to tow the line. But it's going to be a long haul. Human rights is not a quick road. We've just touched the surface, essentially, of a really rich theme of discussion, a very dynamic, globally important issue for both our countries. I think you can tell how this animates both sides. I mean, Australia and Belgium, despite our geographic distances, is a lot that we share in common in terms of common dilemmas. At the Lowy Institute, though, we like to end proceedings punctually. And I'm afraid that is all we have time for today. So the Belgian Economic Mission is a very busy schedule. Look, I want to thank the foreign minister and our panelists for such an interesting, abbreviated discussion. Please join me in thanking the panel, first of all. And let me also extend my thank you to your Royal Highness, Princess Astrid and all the Belgian and Australian participants for visiting the institute today. A special thank you also to Belgium's exceptional ambassador, Michel Gauphin, and his colleagues, as well as to our board member, Gillian Broadbent, and the operations team at the Lowy Institute, in particular, Liesel Gabriel, for helping make today's event possible. Ladies and gentlemen, please, can I ask you to rise and remain where you are, but rise, as we escort her Royal Highness and the foreign minister out of the building. Thank you very much.