 I can get my books and we're live Perfect moment to be moving your camera. Hello everybody Does it say live for you? I'm assuming Yes, it does. Yeah, good. Well, hello everybody should know who I am already so I Won't introduce myself, but this is my lovely friend Heather if we would like to give us the elevator pitch for your existence Okay, I have My PhD in Shakespeare and studies and early modern drama, so this was something that really excited me Right now I teach at Purdue. I'll teach writing and composition at Purdue And I have three crazy kids that gave me very busy and I'm on books to grab. I like to read Resistance in a nutshell I guess Take on some some homework for funsies Yeah, I actually was like really excited to have homework again, because it's been so long since I Disgrading it you get to do it I was so excited when like because we've talked for a few years now And I had no idea that you like not only we're just kind of generally into Shakespeare You're like you're like certified into Shakespeare. I have a degree that proves So I was super excited to find somebody who as I said before out nerds me and Shakespeare You plays this week I would like pause it and take notes and I think about it and then message you and then to start it again And my mom is like it's taking you hours to watch place. I was like, I know because I need Miriams them. Yeah, there's a lot to pick apart. That's the thing Well, I feel like with shakes well for me anyway who enjoys Shakespeare I think Shakespeare can be relatively casually enjoyed like just you know Just to watch it and be like, oh, it's good and like, you know a lot of it flew by you But like generally and some parts stuck out to you But it's also like the more you go back and like maybe see the play again And then maybe read the play and then after having read it then watch it again And like it's just like, you know layers and layers of unearthing meaning and etc etc But like I feel like you don't have to do that to enjoy it. It can be like casually enjoyed, but Yeah, yeah, I agree and I think that what I love about plays and why I did early modern drama instead of you know poetry Was because I love the way that performance changes the way that we understand it and emphasize certain themes And it can totally change your experience with the play and your understanding of it And that's why I love about drama. It feels like a living breathing organism that can constantly be changing And that's why I love like retellings and reimagining and Just watching plays anyway, so well I always tell people like who are starting out with Shakespeare that it was intended to be experienced as a play So like if you can I advise you to watch it first and it's unlike a book where you're like Well, watch the movie first and then read the book we're like no but with a play. Yeah Like it was meant to be performed So like it's I feel like you'll be able to sink your teeth into it better if you've seen it at least once And then to go back and read it and because you're not going to catch everything if you just see a play Plus they cut stuff out and interpret it and whatever but you it was meant to be performed So it's not like it's not like with movies and books Yeah, and I think that people learn about Shakespeare's time and the the history of drama wrong Like I think a lot of people learn in high school. They didn't have anything on the stage It was just them and like they just like spoke poetry and I feel like that's what I learned in high school And then when I started studying drama and studying the history of it It's like no these things were built to be spectacles. They had fake blood They had their own kind of lighting And not all of these were the marvel movies of their day And each play was written for the way that the playhouse was constructed And so I think that we have to remember that these also have constraints And so far as like even the buildings that they were meant to be performed in So like Macbeth was not written for the globe. It was written for an indoor theater that was very dark And so it was supposed to be Creepy and very it was supposed to feel claustrophobic That's what Shakespeare was like going for because that was the theater that it was meant for So whereas like the tempest it was going for the new technology of the time So it was one of it was like, you know, one of the more it was the avatar of its day And so he had like the spirits and the thunder and the lightning because he was trying to utilize all of the things that the theater had And so you have to see that perform because you don't get that when you read the page You know when you just read it, you're like, well, that was real quick. Like I guess some stuff happened But it's actually really long when you whenever it's performing all of the stuff And then it was supposed to be a Musical and a comedy and like even a tragedy was supposed to You know have those musical and comedic moments like music was such a huge part of the theater back then And we just don't get that musicality when we're just reading it on the page. It just says sings a song Yeah And I do I mean like I feel like Now I see it more but I feel like for a time when people adapted Shakespeare for the stage or film They would cut out any of the singing and music and I love when they do put that in still because like It's it was there for a reason And that's why I love Romeo plus Juliet bad mormons version of it It's like my faith one of my favorite Shakespeare retellings because he includes modern music as a way to show to make Modern audiences feel what they would have felt so he doesn't use the kind of music they were using but he still uses music very intentionally And I really like his production and he's like very good at making it a spectacle like I haven't actually seen that one because I don't love Boz Lerman But I know that that was like in the theory behind why they did a night's tell the way they did because they were like Knights were basically rock stars of their day So to get you to love like or to Feel the way that people would have felt back then like we're gonna put rock music in and make them be cool And like I don't know if it really translated to be that I'd love the movie anyway, but like that was What they said they were going for Movie You know when I said that I was like that makes sense. I don't know if you achieved that but I like it anyway So today we're talking about oh no, I did so Macbeth and the tempest and their respective retellings tag seed and Macbeth I just want to so like I maybe we'll talk about it chronologically because we did tempest first when we read it Or we can mix it up. I don't know it's chaos, but I was just like gonna say that Spoilers we hated Macbeth the retelling and I just Can I just say it only just occurred to me because we kind of accused it of being low effort. The title is low effort Anyway, I'm never getting ahead of ourselves. Um, we enjoyed the tempest and hag seed yes Um, I don't know. I think yeah, I know you're a big big fan of Macbeth How familiar and into the tempest were you before we I had read it once a while ago, but um, I was way more into his tragedies and his histories Like I could talk about Henry the fifth and Macbeth and hamlet all day So I had uh, I I've had read it once and have like learned about it once But it was never in my like wheelhouse of things. So But that's what I really liked what Margaret Atwood did like she really tried to make her retelling An obvious um interaction like with the play like she wanted you to understand the play after reading her book So I like that about it Yeah, I mean after we now this morning actually So we had already read it a while ago. Um, I was looking up some interviews with her about hag seed mainly to like see if we were right in In why she called it hag seed why we thought she called it hag seed to see if there's any confirmation of that anywhere But I mean in any case, I mean she kind of talked about that how like when they Hogarth Shakespeare the project, which we haven't actually really talked about with that project is pretty self-explanatory They they asked famous authors to retell Shakespeare plays and they asked her which one she wanted to retell in her first choice with the tempest so Which I wouldn't I was like that would never be my first choice, but um She was saying how she loved how it's you know, most overtly out of all those plays a play about plays About directing about acting about all of that which it really is Um, and yeah, I know she has a master class. I have not taken any master classes, but I bet hers is amazing but anyway, um, yeah, so it was uh it was interesting seeing kind of like why that play in the first place appealed to her and then her Stress when she like she was excited. Okay. She got this project and now she reads the tempest again And she's like, okay, and then rereads the tempest again And it's like how am I going to make this a modern thing? Why did I sign up for this? There's just no way to make this work on the modern day. This is crazy But I think you pulled it off I I think so too. And I think she did really smart. She made the The changes that she made I thought were really smart. Are we allowed to give like spoilers in this chat? Is that like I think so I tell me with whenever I've done chats that are just about one book I'll maybe do like the beginning be a little spoiler free and but we're doing two into basically four books So it's going to be spoiled sprinkled throughout so just and if you're worried about Shakespeare spoilers Well, he's been dead long enough That's kind of a thing too like with the retelling You like know a lot of the framework going into it And so you and then the question is always like when something is going to have you like Are they going to do exactly what the play did or are they going to change it? Like that's really the only like mystery left Yeah, and I found that I was both like snobbish about changes and like disappointed when it wasn't changed enough like I feel like I am a person who Yes, yeah, like if you don't know how Macbeth ends like You know, yeah, I think I said in a video recently where I was like talking about Romeo and Julia for some reason I don't know why because I haven't read it recently, but I was like spoilers Romeo and Julia They kill themselves at the end All of you people who compare your relationship to Romeo and Juliet maybe don't I think you're 13 years old and took a roof even my priest Makes makes makes sense But yeah, I really liked in Hag seat about like, you know The great thing about the tempest is all of those magical elements And so I kind of wondered what she was going to do with that Like how do you do a modern retelling with all of the magical elements? And so I think it's interesting that she she ended up like killing off the Miranda character really and then she like hurt her ghost becomes like a specter that haunts um Prosperos, what's his name in the book? I keep calling him Rolex. You look yeah, right? Yeah, something like that I just called him Prospero in my head and like never corrected it myself even though like the book doesn't call him that Yeah, I feel it But I like to look it was grief and trauma that ended up being the thing that was haunting him not like real ghosts and not real spirits but like the grief that he carried with him his whole life of his What I mean like Shakespeare already deals a lot with madness, but then also Does include like supernatural or magical things whereas with the more modern either adaptations of the actual plays or interpretations is in retellings It's that's I think a lot of the time the way that they Get around having something supernatural is just make it even more about madness You know what I mean? We're some of some of the stuff Shakespeare writes isn't I mean Macbeth is going mad but Edophilia goes mad and like that that that is what's happening there But a lot of the time when there are characters who are seeing You know fairies and ghosts and whatever like more modern interpretations will be like nope That's just more madness. They're not really seeing those things Yeah, I think she kept a good balance here because it wasn't that Felix was mad It was just that he was grieving. He was a grieving person who aren't you ugly mad? He's kind of interacting with her A bit literally stable and healthy place So that's very true But you know, I'm seeing Miranda almost the way that Macbeth sees Banquo Yes, but in like a not sanity No, it's not Manity and you know that whole like the kind of very long game revenge that he plays is even like More complicated than like Prosperos real. Yeah well, I mean it kind of like Honestly Prosperos is like just as much of an arguably a longer game in terms of years It's just we start out already like we fast forwarded to that part. Whereas with hag seed We sue we well, we technically did start out at the end where like their mid Play or like in the middle of being in their tempest basically But and then we jump back and then we kind of more experience like that length of time Which is a really long amount of time It is again pointing towards insanity to be doing this for that long Because I mean I understand getting like really dramatic and bitter right after getting also like, I don't know if I need to explain What hag seed is about it's about a theater director who basically gets pushed out of his position and then instead of like Instead of kings and princes and dukes It's a theater director getting pushed out of his job And then he was about to put on the tempest and kind of in honor of his dead wife and dead daughter Because he named his daughter Miranda and there's a Miranda in the tempest and he's like gonna be did he cast himself as Prosperos Yeah, I thought so So he was kind of like this was going to be a way to like Like in memoriam and then they like fire him before they even put on the play And he's really bitter at everybody who did this to him So he like goes and lives as a hermit off the grid for nine years And then takes a job teaching Shakespeare to like prison inmates and gets him to put on plays And his long game is to like use the plays to bring back his now nemesis and like Freak them out and like basically do what Prospero does Like his nemesis was like now in politics went from like theater director to politics because that's usually how it goes Maybe in canada So yeah, it was and I think that's what the hard part about these retelling is that it's trying to fit in a framework And like so sometimes you have to make those Leaps with those characters even though it doesn't always like they're telling a different story And so sometimes in telling that different story It doesn't always like match up with the kind of forced structure of the play So I mean the structure has to be though forced was less forced than mcbeth, but we'll get there But um talk about not starting in the middle of the action I mean you have to go quite a bit into mcbeth to even get to the start of the play And I get that he was trying to like build up a backstory in the same way that haxie does but he does it so Slowly it's unnecessary. There's a lot of things in jones bowes mcbeth that are unnecessary, but again Like the whole i'm gonna just go on a mini rant because I can't hold it any longer The whole point of mcbeth it is one of shakespeare's Shorter plays and the scenes are all very short and very quick Like the whole point of mcbeth is that it's this inevitability of time like coming up that you're coming up against And this way that it keeps pushing down on it I really like the rsc production we watch with christopher eckleston Because they have a timer in the background counting down to when he's going to die to emphasize this like this time That's like coming up. It's almost time and times mentioned a lot in the play It's supposed to be fast paced and suspenseful and scary and This is the longest hogarth Like how could you take one of his shortest plays about time and make it long and unwieldy? It makes me so mad. I'm like, did you read the play and understand it? Like and then he gives it hundreds of pages of backstory that just kind of kill The moment where he decides to kill duncan. I don't know. Yeah, I mean if anything the backstory Contradicts the hype of relationships that are in the play Instead of like, you know, it's long, but it's worth it. No, it's long and that's what ruined it Not just being long, but like the stuff you added in Doesn't make sense that don't make sense So friends who doesn't know that the nesbo mcbeth basically makes it about like police officers Like the crime thriller Yeah, and it's like a police officer hierarchy where mcbeth becomes like the head of organized crimes. So like they kill Duncan to like so that he's like head of the police, which I can't remember Name it's anymore. But as you oh the chief commissioner Yeah, something like that. But as you pointed out, that's not how that works I feel like as much as we were like just laughing about how in hagg seed That our like art director goes into politics and you're like, uh, but I mean that's more believable than like I am going to kill the police commissioner so that I then become police commissioner But then my best friend's children will be the heirs truly and will for generations be police commissioners And like they're setting up all of these and I think that what he's doing it's very Like police thriller motivations where it's like, you know people with like good intentions Like they want to fix things But then, you know, really everybody is just bad like mcduff is bad Like there's no there's nobody who's working in opposition to mcbeth like Again, the play mcbeth is about oppositions and about opposites like over and over again You have this list of opposites That's supposed to be about like two opposites kind of working like and how they work together and how they're in contradiction But in this play, he's like no everyone's just horrible and it's just like one person Like trying to one up another person like it doesn't and I mean I didn't finish it and you did Like I'm honestly like like I I for your sake as your friend I don't want you to finish it But so that you can be salty with me I want you to have finished it because you would be even angrier than I am about what was done with lady mcbeth Morning! We put up the summary because uh, I am most seriously displeased I just And like and then to make mcduff like this wife like he's cheating on his wife He doesn't really hate his family it like takes away again What like the whole thrust of the tragedy in the play like it just everything every choice he makes just takes away What the tragedy was trying to do and it was like he gets banquo to be basically in on it and to help him with the killing I'm like, this is just a whole other thing now. That's not it's just the mcbeth's mr. This And like I just and like for lady like her motivations are even weird because it's like the whole point Why I love lady mcbeth and mcbeth in the play is because she loves the idea of being a partner in something It's this idea of like a woman finally Getting power, you know that like it doesn't happen like a woman being a partner in something is not something that always happened you know So like they were in love and like doing this together and I just I feel like that again the book just Ruins that Someone asked what happened to lady So lady mcbeth so in the first place we hate the fact that like a lot of what is done to make this modern It's to make women all like prostitutes Of course, of course But anyway, so she is the I guess formerly a prostitute But she's like she just owns this casino now or this I think it's a casino and a brothel But anyway, she's a steady and her name is lady um, and she's the girl steady girlfriend of mcbeth and so instead of going mad over killing Duncan which is what causes lady mcbeth to go mad is realizing that she's like You know, it's guilt over murder. They keep teasing and then finally reveal That you know how okay, so in the play she makes reference to like Uh, the commitments to this issue and and when she's first telling him to do it How like she would take her own child and like dash its brains out or whatever, you know in order to you know You know what I mean like that part in the play I had promised you to do that. I would have fulfilled that promise So you specifically uses the imagery of a baby and killing a baby while in This guy who literally copy pasted mcbeth and nothing deeper She literally killed a baby when she was like before she ever met mcbeth because her dad raped her and she And then she killed the baby and she's been like this whole time She's like well I did what I had to do and blah blah blah blah blah But now like the guilt over it is too much and she's go lala and then she kind of comes out of being lala but while being lala she kind of Says stiff to some servant of heck it and heck it is a drug dealer by the way for those people watching To make the goddess of witchcraft a man and you're retelling. I have choice words for you Right, but eventually iam She goes lala and basically kills herself over like guilt over having killed her baby back way back Before mcbeth was in her life So like it has almost nothing to do with what just happened because You know what? I mean like i'm just like well this happened a while ago And also why are you literally doing a killing of a baby when like yes, shakespeare used that imagery at one point But did you think she really And like what wakes you again just like so mad it feels like a misreading of the play the reason part of the reason There's lots of reasons why lady mcbeth goes mad But part of it is because mcbeth stops including her In his plans like the whole point of them was to do it together And so she like and one of the things that shakespeare likes to do with like lovers is to have them complete lines together like a um Oh my gosh, i'm losing that You know like his iam the pentameter lines I didn't know what you were trying to say I was like this is with five feet. Do you see what i'm doing? Uh, so he has them complete lines And so in the beginning of the play him and lady mcbeth are constantly completing each other's lines They complete these iambic pentameters together and at the end of the play He starts to just become you know He goes crazy and he does things alone and with hired murderers and all that kind of stuff So part of the reason why she goes crazy is because he's left her behind and is not including her anymore So to make it about like and there is a like I feel like it's a very mass male reading of the play because a lot of Male all of it was not just what he did the lady am but yeah the whole thing is a very like I will make it police commissioners and like Make all the women prostitutes and blah blah blah well and so A lot of male academics think that like maybe she had lost a baby and like that is what made her monstrous Like she had a miscarriage or a stillborn or something Which I mean I guess it could be it like explains why they don't have Kids but to make her madness all about that just feels like it's a very I don't know a sexist reading up her character because it just Minimizes her to like her mother You know like to her ability to have a mother or not and that just makes me really mad And like part of the other thing is that the whole idea about mcbeth is that both characters ask You know the fates or whatever to be Unsexed and a lot of like you know a lot of people read that as like lady mcbeth asking to be a man But that's not really it either because mcbeth does it too Like a lot of like I think that when they're both asking that they're asking to become less human It's not about being less You know less of a woman or less of a man. It's about in order to do these evil deeds. They have to become like Inhuman, you know and so So then and like mcbeth's book He makes all of the women prostitutes and makes them like more feminine and like to me it just really Again, it's it's sexist. Let's just call it But I think I like it had if he had done this thing where like yeah She was abused and she killed a baby and whatever and that's part of like what's generally made her have Like unstable mental health Before all this started fine But like it's not really done where this new murder has triggered her and now she feels like a murderous twice over It's not that it's just that this is coming back to haunt her and she Yeah, that's it Like this is nothing to do with any of this. What is this? Why is this here? To make like witches prostitutes and like we talked about this one of the witches is like We think possibly a trans woman because people are like always questioning like whether or not It's actually like she's actually a woman which feels super transphobic and like even to do that and like make You know her a witch just feels like it's trying to but also like it just That's one of the trickiest things about mcbeth if you're going to try to make it like a super realistic Modern thing is like how are you going to do the witches and the ghost and stuff and not make it? It's just like taking like okay find their prostitutes but just that whole setup of like them prostitutes coming to him and giving him prophecies you're like what How what why and the fact that like I guess heck it directed them to like but for why This makes no sense. No. No it doesn't And like and then to like basically mcbeth's also a drug addict because of course he is and so like that's part of the reason why he goes mad too because he's like an addict and I just trying to do too much and I think what what really bothers me too is that it's supposed to be like Scary like it the whole point of the witches and things like that in the play It's again that the space of the theater was supposed to be dark and scary and creepy And he doesn't do any of that. He doesn't give any vibe to that. It's just Like the world is a terrible. There's this whole so like mcbeth and mcduff aren't like besties in the play There's not like an immense amount of like this this turns into like a edmundontis versus fernand mondago situation and This version where at the end when once again, we had to literally You don't have to put everything that's in the play in here in some form So having that whole thing about him not being born of a woman and have him be like ripped out of a womb early That's in there and he tells mcbeth this because like we had literal prophecies from prostitutes that had to be explained So he tells mcbeth, you know that oh no like he was you know cut out of his mom's womb when she was murdered or whatever before he was born So Get great But also the fact that they were like best friends in an orphanage and they kind of grew apart and when mcbeth is now this like final showdown with him and mcduff or duff not mcduff every time duff was drinking a beer I wanted to laugh because simpsons So he doesn't want to kill mcbeth He's gonna like take him in and properly, you know arrest him and make him face justice for what he's done Because that's the thing to do and mcbeth goads him into killing him by being like come on You know, you want to kill me after you know like what I did, you know, you want to you know You want to and like basically talks him into it until like finally duff kills him Um, but like that whole thing I was just like that's just like not the vibe of the end of mcbeth It's not mcbeth goading his best friend from forever ago to kill him which like Again doesn't work because like the way the mcbeth Convinces duff to kill him is like by harping on all the horrible things that mcbeth did i.e. kill his family And like to go back to circle back to that. Yeah mcbeth you seriously killed your best friend's family over this like when it just does not work when you make the best friend So don't read this one Like I I thought maybe one star was too harsh, but the more I think about it. Nah this just No, just why I was thinking that also about so like uh a retelling and like the spectrum of it being good or not What makes a retelling work and a retelling like the best of all possible worlds is when it works both as a glorious Like reference and interpretation of the text but also completely stands on its own And you could not know it's a retelling and enjoy it like that's like a perfect book Then in the middle you have works really well as a retelling But doesn't really stand on its own or stands on its own really well But not so good as a retelling and then you have works on neither front Just neither a good book or a good retelling and that's where mcbeth is Maybe and I think part of the problem is that this is not my genre I do not go to like police thrillers, but I don't think that mcbeth is joanesbo's genre So I just I feel like they should have gotten like a horror writer to do it, you know Like somebody who could play with the idea because I think like that's what horror does really well Like that whole horror genre is about bending You know your perception of what is real and so I feel like someone who was used to that could have done this instead of trying to make it this real gritty like it felt like you know I'm doing a gritty retelling in mcbeth, but it's already so there's so much depth. It's already gritty and crazy You don't need to try and make it more Gritty and crazy and again like duff is supposed to work as a contradiction to mcbeth And so then to make him like Not as good like I mean they set him up like the we meet duff first I think in this book and it's about like his desire to get like the gang leader Or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, they could have had yeah the frankly and like in the very beginning we set up this kind of like animosity Thing between them where like he has purposely cut mcbeth out and he wants to capture this drug dealer on his own And even though mcbeth is head of swat and swat arguably should be there He purposely requested that swat not be there because he wanted to do it himself And now he's seeing that actually there's a lot more dudes and he really should have called swat Well, good thing mcbeth showed up anyway and swat is there and he's like But i'm like, what is this? This is like, what is this rivalry? Like this is not From mcbeth. What is this? And then like duff then like kills the kid the kid gang member Just because death is also crazy and he's like cheating on his wife and he's like a horrible person And it's like this does not work for how the play is supposed to work. Like it's not he's not supposed to be So like you just have no you have no entrance point to any of the characters in this book And you know, I mean I talked about this like when Lady suggests to mcbeth that they kill Duncan. It literally comes out of nowhere Like it's not even in the middle of a scene like we cut like they were talking and then we fast forward and it's been a few Hours or it's like later that night and we open the scene with mcbeth being like What you said you want me to kill him? What? We're like, yeah, what and she's like, yeah, because then you know you can be in charge. You're like What And we were wondering if like some of the transitions were rough because it was a translation So at first we were going like really easy on it because we're like maybe it's a translation and some of this were losing But even like plot wise if you were just going to take out that the writing And like just look at the plot and like motive character motivations It really doesn't make sense like before lady mcbeth like decide or lady decides to like kill Duncan I think She was talking about how like she was like losing money in her casino like Like she like the casino was having a tough time economically So like She once stunk and dead so I don't know I mean her whole like pinch to mcbeth is like well because like they only gave you your position because they want to make it look Like the nobody is from the wrong side of the tracks can have power But they'll never give you true power So you have to kill them so then you'll have power and i'm like once again Like it's it's difficult to translate Like a story written with like monarchy and nobility and like birthright into a modern day setting But this this isn't it like at the very least you have to set it up in some way where like Dying and you inheriting that role position and property whatever Does is that how that works? But here like all of this like you you don't like Your boss when you're working for the police doesn't die and you inherit his position like that's just like not how this works Yeah, I just I don't get the choices that he made and he seems to like One of his themes seems to be about like class warfare because The part of the problem is this town in scotland. I think Is basically like an old coal town factory town And it's like gone to crap because of bad economics and bad policy and then corruption in the police force So part of the thrust of mcbeth's like Like his goals is to like make the town better But then again, like those motivations just kind of fall flat with everything that he does afterwards Like if that's the whole point this idea that he's going to make the town better. Why would he work with the drug lord? Again, all of this backstory doesn't then make up like make sense for the motivations Yeah, I think I put in a bunch of backstory where like all of like If you wanted to have like the best friends with duff thing like really emphasize not that mcbeth wants to Make the town better But simply that he feels that life has denied him that he and duff started in the same place But or didn't but kind of like he's been given a raw shake and duff was handed things on a silver platter And it's he should be able to have what they have and so he'll kill everybody because They're you know something like that where it's not about making the town better It's you know pure ambition again, which is what drives the original mcbeth and then it would still make sense that he would be I guess push to be like if he like regarded duff and his like perfect family as like An indictment on mcbeth's own life that he never had those things and like look at his perfect life and something like that Like it wouldn't be great, but it would be better To be fair like in the play Him choosing to kill the king does happen like fast and like sort of out of nowhere But because you have a super natural element and like that whole sense of foreboding pushing it It makes a little more sense in the context and because like it does work that way where if the if you're aligned to the throne and the people That helps I mean mcbeth was a soldier, but it's not like he was powerless in the play Like he was still it's not like he was like pulled out of the ranks of soldier and given power He was there already So, you know, what would a nezbo fan think of this? I've heard from Not directly, but just generally I've heard that people who are fans of nezbo don't think this is his best work So I don't think anyone likes this I think it's hard with the retellings because like I tried to read vinegar girl And I had never really heard of the author before but I had read like the good reads and everyone was like This is not her her best thing. I mean taking on taming of the shrew Like vinegar girls are retelling and taming of the shrew. I was excited about that one, but you've made me very worried hard play To to make modern and like still I mean nothing will ever come close to 10 things I hate about you being the perfect shakespeare retelling and if anybody wants my ted talk on that I'm more than happy to give it But it does what you say it does that movie can stand alone As like its own movie But if you know that it's a remake of taming of the shrew it makes it more fun And I think that is the way that you make it more modern and vinegar girl They do try to do the same thing as like marrying off like the dad marrying off a sister and it doesn't work in a modern Yeah, I think like either you're retelling to be successful either It has to be willing to be fairly loose and to to veer off from the play when it has to to tell a good story Or you do what margaret atwood did and literally reference the actual play I think margaret atwood is cheating but also she's a good author. I'm like I see you but also it worked It worked and and be given that the tempest is about basically Actors and directors already that i'm like if you're going to do with any of these plays It's either this or mid-summer night's dream and then i'll forgive you Yeah, I mean it is a very meta play to begin with so you can make a meta book about it And I think her book falls in what you were talking about where Like the stages of retellings you have one that stands on I don't know if I would have enjoyed this one if I wasn't already a fan of The tempest and if I wasn't already a Shakespeare person So I like I enjoyed her book because I liked hearing what she what her perception But let me get sounds on its own. No, I I mean, I don't know if I I think you'd be extremely baffled if you had never read the tempest Like what is going on? But as like a thought experiment about the play I think really works like at the end Uh, the characters of the book kind of do a thought experiment about like what would have happened to the play characters and You know after the play had ended And so I think there are very many moments in this book that turn meta and ask you to do kind of Thought play on the play itself and on what Shakespeare was doing and like how that speaks to what the characters in this book are doing So it's very aware Where is the other book? I know it felt less like a novel and more like a novelized dissection of the play Yeah We walk away from that retelling really understanding what the tempest is about so like Margaret Atwood thinks it's about. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and just and I think she does a good job of picking up some of the fun pieces of the tempest like the prisoners and hag seed are Who you find more interesting just like in the play you find the spirits and aerial like aerial is everyone's favorite character In the play that's just a fact, right? Only the most visually interesting in most productions Yeah, well, and I think his relationship with prospero is more interesting than him and his daughters like yeah It also feels more filial Yeah Yeah, like there is a love there that I find really surprising when I was rereading the tempest again because I hadn't like I Said before I hadn't read it in so long. Um And so I had always like remembered caliban from the tempest and you were really upset that there wasn't an actual specific caliban in hag seed Because hag seed is caliban. So by name you were all caliban all caliban Um, but all y'all ban you me everyone is caliban We're all monsters, right? Isn't that what is the what one of the lines in the place? Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Like that's kind of We are all hag seed. Um, but and I like that she that she like used words from the play Um, like she used lines from the play and I think mcbeth does but like not in a way. That's like fun Shakespeare is supposed to be fun. Like it's he's supposed to be fun He's supposed to be an entertainer and that's what I learned about hag seed too because he makes that whole point to the prisoners He's like Shakespeare was meant for you guys. It's not meant for like stuffy old academics Like Shakespeare's meant for everybody. So I love the explaining to be able to this was popular entertainment This was not regarded as highfalutin Which is why I also like to think like a thousand years from now how like reality tv shows like They'll be regarded as like Will be dissected in oxford But um, I think like I know I said this when we were uh buddy reading and chatting about mcbeth And I stand like the more I thought about it the more i'm like i'm a hundred percent certain of this And now I want someone to write this that like if you're going to retell mcbeth in a somewhat modern setting The only way I see it working if you're going to do it almost beat for beat is making it a western Yeah, I'm like then like a mafia book but I think mafia too, but I feel like with the supernatural elements It's more likely to work as a western where like people like Because of the harshness of the desert and and the fact that literally, you know When people don't have water and they kind of start to see things that may not be there And the fact that we get into racist territory, but a lot of westerns will use like native americans as a kind of like You know supernatural or unknown element or whatever just that whole like and the fact that in Westerns, you know, it's kill or be killed like the idea that you would inherit power by killing the sheriff or whatever Is like kind of more how that would work as opposed to like a really industrialized city where like that is not how that works So like I really feel like it would work better as a western Yeah, yeah, I think that would be fun I think Or like it either needs to be like if you're if you're gonna do it without the fantastical elements Then that could work or if you're really going to like lean into the horror elements Then it could be like a modern-day horror that could get away with that. And so I don't understand why They chose it Well, I mean the authors were given like They were asked. I mean they were offered the chance to choose which play they want to retell So clearly Jonas bow decided you wanted to retell Mcbeth and I'm like, dude But for why? Yeah It just makes me so I try to think like we like if I was like, you know Jonas bow's friend and knowing the kind of books that he writes Like if there was a different Shakespeare play that I would like recommend to him as being better for his style I don't I can't Well, if he wants to talk about politics, I mean the henry plays are about like, you know, I think he writes crime thrillers So that's not really no Like I guess I can see why on the surface you'd say, yeah, Mcbeth there's lots of murdering that would be perfect for a crime thriller, but like If you wanted to do a straight up like revenge one, I guess like hamlet would probably be better Because it's not like he's trying to kill his uncle for power. He's just trying to do it for revenge There's that element of trying to figure out if the ghost is Right that the uncle did so there's and there's a little bit of detective work And you could do a thing where like If you wanted to do it straight, no supernatural. No, whatever like something where A recorded video or voice message or something like that is what handle it sees or finds and like There's some reason to doubt its authenticity And that's why there's still that element of like uncertainty about whether this happened But something like that Or he thinks he's found evidence right Because the audience is not always certain that The uncle well, I guess we kind of believe the ghost but you know, we're following The play is the thing it's evidence. That's all the evidence we need Well, because yeah, that's also that that play is also about like people's Truths being reflected on their face and that's also what my bath is about But not the book. I don't know what the books things were. I guess like Honestly, like if I was like gonna stop trying to analyze it on like How this retold mcbeth and just try to like review it like I'd review any book And forget the name Uh, I I couldn't tell you what he was trying to do Yeah, I yeah Being exactly the same names like which again, like it just feels so lazy like in in hag seed like His daughter was named Miranda, but he overtly like he's a theater director and he specifically named her from Miranda Like he did it on purpose, but everyone else is just named regular names And then he like calls people like he calls the person I was cursed before he even began Yeah, well and what we liked about hag seed too is that in one ways that it does stand alone as its own Book is that by including the prisoners. She also has like she brings in her own theme about The prison complex Works and like I think it she She uses felix as the like vehicle through which to do this But she has observed and therefore felix has observed How many like imprisonings there are in the tempest and he has the prisoners his students He has them count and like specifically draw the tension to this point Which like in the context of the the book it makes sense for felix to do this But for margaret atwood it makes sense to have set it in a prison when she was going to be making this point That was her point was to make this point Um, so I mean it is when you watch the tempest you're like, oh, it's a fantastical magical island of like fairies And it's basically mid-summer night's dream part the second but like when you when that is pointed out to you and when it's retold in the context of Of like incarcerated men performing it That does really draw your eye to the thing that all this whimsy is kind of masking how everybody is being kind of Everyone is in each other's power in one way or another and how they're being controlled and manipulated and how their freedom and their liberty is being Um infringed upon mainly by prospero, but Yeah Yeah, and I and I really liked that we watched the rsc production of the tempest and I really liked how they Showed um the ways that prospero would end the whimsy early like there's a lot of whimsy to be had in that that play and uh That production is a really good job of showing the ways that prospero ends it like if it gets too fantastical He can't stand it and he kind of shuts it down And I think that marga atwood is a good job of pulling out the darker undertones of the tempest And bringing them to the forefront like prospero you don't necessarily Root for him and either the play or the book you you know understand him and you feel bad for him because his daughter and his Wife are dead and like, you know But you do kind of remember like I think she does make a point about how she's he's not being great to the prisoners Like he is clearly manipulating them And he's lucky that like his play of the tempest ends up working out to his favor and that the revenge ends up working Without the prisoners getting punished because this could have had we were both worried while we were reading yet That this play was gonna this book was gonna end badly because it seemed to kind of come up against that darkness And then come back from it a little bit It's pointed out in the play, but it's not but it's barely pointed out. It's only pointed out by ariel really As said the play doesn't dwell on it, but I think the book dwells on how kind of horrifying What prospero and felix are doing right like the fact that they're gonna Basically torture these people and make them completely lose their minds as vengeance for what like yes It is vengeance arguably I guess you know I for an ion justified like if you say like well, what was done to me like yeah That was bad too But like when ariel is the one that's like I if you saw how they were suffering if you saw how horrified they were I don't think he would go on with this and prospero is like well Wow, like this non-human thing is affected by this Can't be affected by it more than me a human But like that's really the only time it's pointed out How kind of horrifying and villainous what prospero is doing is how barbaric and how sinister And I think this play by putting it in the prison and and even by opening the book by kind of showing us how they're freaking Out and it's this prison lockdown and they think it's real and it's it's kind of unsettling and terrifying And by putting you more like it makes it more visceral it makes it more apparent how like psycho this plan is And all of the prisoners could have had real repercussions for what they did and he did not care And therefore and he did not care that they could end up in You know in prison and and like one of the prisoners is the one that they're the ones that constantly say like are you sure this is gonna end okay He's like, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be fine You know giving them like false motives to why they should do it, you know so and it does end up working out because you know it is A comedy of sorts or whatever, but but I do like how the end of the play Really brings you up against that like, you know, did we solve all of the problems? I don't think so and like is this a happy ending like it's a very up in the air like whether or not Any of these things are happy endings So because like the prisoners at the end of hags you're most like I think all but one of them is still in prison at the end And feel like I really thought that me because like the book more than the play Does it does more to make you see how? Dark and psycho what he's doing is I really didn't think it would end well for felix Like I really thought he would I didn't know what would happen I didn't have a specific thing in mind but not Not a neutral benevolent ending for him Which is I mean does mirror the play in the play He's kind of you know like well and you know, let me know what you think Leave your thoughts in the comments down below globe theater But like because like it just seemed because we took out the like plausible deniability of it was magic It was like no this is like straight up psychotic behavior that I really thought he would have a like A come to jesus where himself or he would you know, maybe kill himself or he would Question what he had done or he would really have to face the consequences of that, but he didn't Yeah, and again, it's not like everything is wrapped up at the end But yeah, it's like that kind of neutral ending where he's not happy But he's not Did what he set out to do He accomplished his goal and it worked. He got his revenge and he got everybody the pieces all where he wanted them so And that's kind of the ending of the tempest all the pieces are rare He wants them and it's just it's funny because Miranda in the play has such like a naive look on the world Because she's grown up on An island and so she's never seen with human beings before besides his dad So she's like wow an exciting world. This is and then you end with her dad going. Well, I don't know It's kind of not that great of a world like he never forgives his brother it's not like him and his brother in the play have any kind of Moment of recognition of what they've done to each other. It's just I won't tell the king what you were trying to kill him He'd just go away for now I mean that was one of the most interesting parts of hag scene was the where each prisoner is meant is is tasked with like Coming up with what they think happens next for their own character Like that was the most fun to me because like, you know, we've all picked apart the tempest But well, you know, or maybe not we all but like that's the thing that's done But it's not I've never seen anybody do that, you know, like okay given where we leave off It is relatively open-ended Now what should we see this going and I really enjoyed that part Yeah And I like to have the prisoners were like, let's look at caliban Like would he really just walk away from all of this grief or would he try and get revenge again? And what would happen to ariel? Yeah, I think that's a good point Yeah, yeah, and I don't even think he goes back to run it. He gives it to He just he's like go on a cruise with that woman and then like leaves the theater to The girl who played maranda and the guy who was in the place of the sun I don't remember that He didn't have a bad ending He was like he basically says, um, I'm gonna pass the torch to the younger generation so he more or less gives the theater to the The girl that plays maranda and like the boyfriend and then he goes on a cruise. I think with the woman who was Well, I know he says that because like his whole thing was making this Production of the tempest that he like desperately wanted But he's like this one that I did with the prisoners It's the best one I'll ever do like I low he don't want to do it anymore Like this was it like It's never going to be better than that When I got I did find myself like wishing god, I wish prisoners didn't put on playing We can go and see There was a part that I think I told you this that it reminded me I think somebody at some point I forget who and why but it's brought up that like you don't want to do a play that reminds prisoners that they're in prison or whatever Or like the subject matter being like that and it just like super reminded me of johnny cash Like going to the sing for prisoners and being told that he shouldn't sing anything that's going to remind them They're in prison and he was like why do you think they forgot? My favorite though is like a more recent example is when justin beaver went to the prisons and like staying lonely Like But we kind of talked about this when we were body reading and then like in the interview that I read with Margaret Atwood She brought a new kind of layer to that but we're talking about how like maranda ariel and Caliban all represent kind of different lenses through which to view prospero on a spectrum of like benevolence to to sinister evil And um as she points out which is a is I guess to my shame is not a way that I would have thought about it but that Prospero is getting revenge for the fact that he was usurped But arguably he usurped caliban on the island because this was caliban's island and now basically prospero did to caliban what was done to prospero and Prospero himself admittedly Was neglectful of his duties back when he was in charge. It's kind of his fault. Yeah, he wasn't good at being a leader so like Is he a hero that we should root for is caliban Really that villainous for wanting What's his back? Yeah, yeah And I yeah, I think the thing that makes caliban kind of Monstrous is like what he took what he tries to do to maranda, right? Like it. That's always the she also said I mean, there's some speculation as to like whether or not maranda Is as innocent as she seems and whether she just she knew that that was like a really Villainous thing to do and that she would have made that kind of accusation without it being true Yeah, I mean except he does like in the play like say it again like I wish that I would have succeeded There is that Yeah, I mean Yeah, I also think that like in the play like caliban follows the drunkards around to like show that like he's not Like like his judgment is not great either But I mean in more ways than just some surfing caliban. He also Usurps aerials power in a lot of way like he takes it for his own I mean all of the magic down there is aerials, you know Yeah, I mean prospers like well, I freed you from that tree. So yeah, oh me. He's like, you know, but for how long Like I remember the first time I went that play I was like kept on waiting for prospero to do something but it's like always aerials magic So I don't really know You know, he's got a stick and a cloak Beams magical He wings it around a lot for respect. He puts moran. He puts people to sleep. He does that like Yeah, and he does control moranda like he controls her entire narrative throughout the whole play I mean, yeah, honestly prospers was like kind of scary. Yeah I mean he set up that whole thing. Is it fredrick? Is that his name the prince that she ends up marrying at the end? Oh, uh fredrick sebastian, I don't know one of those kinds of names Ferdinand ferdinand there you go So when he know he like guides her into Because he knows oh, this is a young man appearing on the island. Of course. She's gonna fall in love with him So I just love I always love the emphasis and chasers. Why he's like make sure she's a virgin I mean, you know, it's like a thing that happens But I always find it kind of hilarious I mean, yeah, I think Yeah, a good dude, but I just I don't know I feel like despite him not being a good dude Like I think he's even worse than like we tend to come away feeling, you know Because the play does frame him ultimately is kind of like he did some questionable stuff but Whereas like I feel like we think individually of all the different things he does and how he goes about doing them You're like Kind of terrified of you Well, I think this is part of what makes it the problem play That's sort of like a horrible definition given to some of Shakespeare's plays And just that it doesn't fit all of these neat categories But all of his tragedies do the same thing, right? Like is mcbeth a tragic hero or is he just a villain? You know, you think that way about a fellow and so what I think what makes uh The tempest interesting is that you think that about a comedic character where you're like A good character when like usually that's what happens in the tragedies. Yeah I don't say I mean like there's a lot of things about it that like Just the fact that he puts Miranda to sleep like that that is so sinister That is so like when we talk about like He's not gaslighting her but like when we talk about like people who have control over like their loved ones And who manipulate them in that way like that's what that's max of and it's terrifying And that whole first speech he gives her About like what happened to him. It's very much a manipulation of like I need you because she's sad that he That's like that he purposely mistreats Ferdinand because he knows well Then that'll tug at her heartstrings and they'll love each other more because I've created a hardship for them to overcome myself Well, and she thinks like the first time we meet her She is upset because she thinks her dad just killed a shipload of people She's like how could you kill all these people? He's like, don't worry. I didn't kill them. I'm just going to torture them for a little bit Everything's okay Yes, I heard to some degree and does very much take control of her emotions and use them for his own benefit. So Prosper is traumatizing ours is he a hundred percent is and I was I mean like His brother is painted as a villain But like when you again when he was neglectful of his people and we've seen what he's how he's behaved now I'm like, do we want him in charge? Do we want him to have his position back? But this is why I love the history plays because henry the fifth is exactly this kind of character um, like you could there are people who write essays essays and essays on whether or not Henry You people Uh, you know is henry the fifth a good guy or a bad guy and like you could write either way, you know um The kenneth brahna version tries to make him very much the hero because kenneth brahna Color me shocked. Yeah, but I mean a lot. I think that's what why I love shakespeare so much Is it really is about like those questions that we had about people in general? Really I guess I mean that's the thing too like I think with mcbeth when you were saying how like I mean, yeah, it's a thing with tragedy more than comedies But like it's more over to me that the author the playwright intends us to regard this behavior as villainous Whereas the prospero it's kind of like And the fact that at the end of the play even prospero is like, so what did y'all think of that? Please be kind Yeah Yeah, but I mean I think when I ever I teach mcbeth we always kind of talk about you know We see him as this like fallen character, but it's like do we like mcbeth? Do we root for him? I mean he is our main because there are tragedies where you see people doing awful things and you root for them despite I don't think we root for mcbeth. I don't think so, but there are other plays like I don't know if anyone has seen the revengers tragedy um christopher eccleston also does that play and I suggest everyone go and watch that but he does some crazy stuff in that movie and some excellent torture and you Do kind of root for him the whole time in a very uncomfortable way and like Well, like I mean you brought up alfalo and like I mean I think you definitely root for alfalo Even though he does some villainous things. Yeah. Yeah, I think so too and what I really love about shakespeare is that even though Iago is awful and you hate him. He is also a character that you're drawn to I mean this is what and this is also why we love henry the fifth because even if we can't agree on whether or not He's a good guy or a bad guy. You cannot help But feel like like attracted to that character and feel drawn in by him And that's what shakespeare does so well is he makes you drawn into these characters who are doing horrible things Honestly, like because alfalo is my favorite and I having read this I don't want joe nesbo within like spitting distance of alfalo But I almost think that alfalo would lend itself more to this to a crime thriller Yeah, yeah, because you're trying to figure out whether or not There's like a sense and it's it's less about you again Like you don't have to deal with the like if I kill him for his power But that's not how that works nowadays This situation whereas like there's none of that it's all just I don't know when I'm holding this in alfalo It's all just personal relationships like it's not like Iago kills alfalo to get his job Like that's not what happens at all. It's all just like the personal dynamics And so you could have you can tell that story on a spaceship like anywhere that works Yeah, and Iago does what he does because he can like he's a bitter jealous you know Villainous guy So like he does again and there is something I still but you know still human about that So I think that's really great one of also just non-sequitur Another great play. It's called tis pity. She's a whore again And then on shakespeare play that does not get enough love and it is actually a romeo and juliet retelling about brother and sister And it is one of the most uncomfortable plays to watch because you root for the brother and sister to be together And then afterwards you're like why like why is that play do that to me? I saw tis pity in san francisco and this it was an amazing production and I was weeping at the end And afterwards I was like, why am I so sad? This is brother and sister. They should not Should not be an example of that in recent memory that I won't say what it is Could it'll be spoilery but there's a recent thing where you're like totally rooting for a brother and sister and you're like But why Why But that's what I think media why media is so interesting because it does manipulate us And I think I mean that's what the tempest is about the ways that the playwright manipulates his audience Right, shakespeare was very meta and he was very aware of the power of the play And so I mean he was also indicting playwrights with that right like I manipulated you for I mean out of all the plays like the prosperos seems the most self-insert character out of anyone that like this is Especially at the end that Prospero's little pitch to the to the audience I think kindly of what I've done here, you know set me free that like your judgment is what governs what happens Like that's a playwright straight up. What would prospero care? Yeah, so I think that's why I find shakespeare so fascinating because he's endlessly meta in a lot of his plays, so I have not watched him Oh, sorry. I'm like reading the comments To catch up he doesn't tenet and I have seen tenet. I liked it, which I guess is an Unpopular opinion because people did not like tenet, but I liked it I mean, I was like one of those guys that I think is ridiculous, but I still like watch all of his stuff That's all I mean, it's a Christopher Nolan movie. It's not a kind of brahna movie that helps Okay, yeah, he plays the villain, but I sort of refuse to see brahnas Proro because I just couldn't take that seriously I know I was refusing to watch it But then it was I think it was free somewhere to watch and I was like, uh, I've seen literally every single Agatha Christie adaptation there is and I've run out so Okay, and I watched it and I was like everything else about it is good Like all the rest of the cash the cinematography, but brahna as paro It hurts it physically hurts. Oh my god The mustache alone is offensive to Agatha Christie Sorry, uh, there's just also nobody that can be David sushi. No, he is paro just that's it And so he I mean he seemed to be trying to like make it his own, but it didn't work I mean he has the ego to match paro, but he can he did not have the grace He like wanted to make him an action hero, which sort of is not the point of proro It's like the worst character try to do that too. Yeah The only thing that would be even worse would be to try to make miss marple Like granny with her stabbing needles I would actually stab you in the eye with her nitty needles I might pay to see the smartphone. Yeah Granny and uh You're into play to play her Yeah, so did you ever see red the movie red with Helen Mirren? It's like they're like retired, you know CIA agents and she has to like be an action hero. So Helen Mirren also was prospere That I actually liked that one. I didn't like the guy who played prospereau on the rsc But that production itself is everything except prospereau and he wasn't a bad prospereau He was just like by far the weakest part of the production in my opinion And I think it goes to show how sometimes all of these elements Can be more interesting than the main character Like everybody else is more interesting than prospereau and that's how I felt about hagsy like you're way more interested in the I wanted like more from the prisoners Which is again another argument for prospereau basically just being a playwright self insert where it's just like You just happen to see the playwright on stage doing the directing and which you usually don't see But like that's what he's doing. He's literally like a playwright directing his own play in real time. Yeah, yeah Red is campy and fun. I I think you would actually really like that movie. I think you should watch it. It has morgan freeman and Um bruce willis and Helen Mirren Those are all well for the most part people that I like Yeah, they're awesome Retired spies and so and they have to like save the world kind of thing Or themselves, I have to say. Oh, did that come out kind of recently? No Oh, no, I'm thinking of there's a movie with Ian McKellen where he's like an old spy I mean, but that's like a serious movie Well, this one's can't be in fun. It's Ian McKellen is prospereau in the audible version of The tempest and he's you know, it's serene mckellan Like And benefit cumberbatches fernand Oh But it did make me think campy reminds me of mcbeth because I do part of the camp reminds you of mcbeth Again that play is a little campy like a lot of those Revenging plays from the early 1600s. It's like if you watch a lot of them They're they have a little bit of camp in them because they're over the top They have that like gothic camp like I don't know if you've read like gothic novels or seen like gothic movies But they're that little bit of ridiculous and that's what I again I was missing from mcbeth. It doesn't have any of the Horror elements any of that like campy violence. It's like Just a police drama But not a very good police drama. I can get behind a good police drama That's this is not it and I think like I don't want to say that it's impossible to make mcbeth a police drama I think you could do it But you'd have to like really be engaging more with the themes of mcbeth and less a copy paste of the exact same character names And like kind of the same plot beats but with a bunch of stuff stuck in between and before to make it not make sense anymore I mean, I guess I just always think of thrillers and police dramas as like needing a central mystery to keep it going And like mcbeth doesn't doesn't have a mystery. It really is like watching the downfall of these people And you know this idea of like whether or not things are faded or not Or you know madness and reason and seeing ghosts and stuff Basically He should not have written it this way and I have feelings about it and I could have done better Maybe I also like the biggest crime of all is how long this is like if you're gonna be a bad book at least be a short book Just The audiobook was 17 hours I'm like what like that's what ha fantasies. I don't know made me mad So I was like already mad when I started because I was like, how do you make his shortest play 17 hours? The runtime of the rsc is two hours. It's like just over two hours I mean when I was getting towards the end and I was like, look, I know it basically ends with mcbeth dying But I was like, how is he still alive? How is this still going? I started to like skin like skin like the rest of it. I was like, wait, he's still not dead like what is this Like again, like I knowing how much is still left. I'm like, all I know He has to still be alive because it ends with him dying, but like But but why is he still alive? How is he not dead yet? I also Was having a hard time finishing mcbeth because I knew what was going to happen to death's family. Like I knew that they were all going To die and the thing about the shakespeare is like some of the more horrific things are always done off-stage And so it makes it a little bit more palatable like not everybody's deaths are off-stage But some of the more horrifying things are done off-stage like killing children Like this book was not was doing no backstage things. It was like here. Let me leave nothing to the imagination I just didn't think that I could and not in a way that served a great narrative purpose It just was Like if I'm going to read that kind of tragedy, it has to like have meaning and I was like this guy is not going to do that well And I don't want to think about it though I mean, I'm very pleased that he was not allowed to touch othello But the more I think about it the more I'm like if you're going to do something like this Othello works better Yeah And there's I mean there's also there are a lot of characters in mcbeth But a lot of them don't need to have back stories and character relationships fleshed out They just pop in and out to do their thing and he just took a character sheet from mcbeth And then wrote back stories for each of them and then copy pasted Like into the play of mcbeth But then changed out all the words to make them modern and ended up with this monstrosity It's awful. It's awful. Don't read it I really want to see like if I'm sure someone likes it So I need to like go on Goodreads or something and find a five star review to be like why What did you like about it? I don't think he got that many good like I think it like got more like two or three stars Yeah, but again someone somewhere gave us a five stars And I have questions I have questions too But hagsied As a retelling but again as we've said like it doesn't really stand on its own. It's more of like uh A critical examination told in novel form Everyone should go watch the rsc productions of both of those plays. Yeah Also, all rsc productions of all plays Awesome place. They're not this isn't anyone's that we read but they they did because there's you know some theories that loves labor's lost is like a pre or a Like that much do but nothing is a sequel to love labor's lost And so they had the same cast put on both plays back to back Um, and they're both really really good. In fact, like I've never really loved loves labor's lost But their production made me love it Yeah, one of my favorite ones is the hollow crown, which is like the movies to watch that I have it like I I purchased the digital Whatever, I haven't watched it yet Well, when I came out to california, we can do it because it's really good Also, it's not rsc, but national theater taped. Um Coriolanus with tom hiddleston. That is chef's kiss. Yeah And yeah, I mean actually that's the that's what jones bow should have done coriolanus. There you go He would have had a great time We should write him and tell him You why don't people consult us when they do these things It would be the world would be a much better place now We need to go kill who is ever is in charge so that we can have their jobs The world would be a better place Because that's how it works, right Like who are you guys? Well, we you know, I killed them. There is my job now Like what a weird world. Yeah, let's just I don't know. So are we ready to do Some more hogarth's next month and the month after yes Othello Right. Othello's next I would like to do Othello next and then I don't do you want to do a chat like this with two at a time Again in like two months or do you want to do we intended to do one just for the tempest and just for like beth? What do you want? Just do one One like one at a time All right. Well, Othello it is um, please don't let me down at least it's short Othello has a fascinating production history. So if you want me to talk about that next time Oh, I absolutely want you to talk about that Fascinating production histories because of the way that people's reaction to it changed over time So, I mean just in general I mean like seeing uh Lawrence Olivier play Othello Yeah It's not it's not great Yeah, it has it has a really interesting History and like and like the original like kind of presence of it was is misunderstood It's a hard play to to modernize considering how it was thought of back then, but We're not doing all of them. So I don't think all of them are hogarths yet Right, like I don't think all of what I've seen is that I think I mean originally the plan was to do them All but they haven't announced a new one in a while and there is speculation that they kind of gave up on the project Unfortunately, well or fortunately, this was the last one to come out and maybe they took one look at that and we're like we know It's risky. We can't end up with another one of these We're gonna try and do The hogarths So like there's to go as far as what exists. There's new boy, which is uh by tracy chevalier Which is Othello and then you've read it. I haven't vinegar girl, which is the retelling of Timmy the shrew. There's Shylock is my name, which is the retelling of merchant of ennis There's the gap of time, which is a retelling of the winter's tale And there's a lear one Um, I forget what it's called, but there is what a one a retelling of king lear. Do you love the winter's tale? I like a lot of things in it, but I don't like the story Yeah, I think some of the best passages and like the best Like monologues and whatever are in winter's tale, but the story itself is one that like really like Is strains credulity? Weird one, but it's not my favorite productions. I saw but yeah Then I think I think the hard part is is that the taming of the shrew is a hard play In general, it's a hard play to teach. It's a hard play to talk about. I mean it is just I mean, you know Blamerizes abuse and the only reason why like I saw the Elizabeth Taylor and oh gosh, what's the guy Richard Burton? Yeah, I saw their movie and the only reason that movie works is because those characters have amazing chemistry because if It's I mean they have such great chemistry on screen because why they were so famous So they make the movie work, but it is such an awful play to sit through You mean in general an awful play to sit through or like that their version of it is No, the play in general is an awful play as a modern human being But the uh their movie you can watch because they have such great chemistry The theater that we have season tickets to down here. Um, they did taming the shrew a few years ago And I really liked their production of it. I think their interpretations helped to Yeah, helped Blamerizing abuse You know Which I mean a lot of it can't like you can't change. I mean, I guess you can change the text But if you're not going to change the text like you can do a lot through the like the inflection and through the stage direction to like imply things as being meant Humorously rather than seriously, you know what I mean like No, I really like that Yeah, doing things like that to make it like through body language make it more Equal Yeah, and if you have a good, you know Cast who can like do that thing that Elizabeth Burton and Richard Taylor Yeah, Elizabeth Taylor Burton did which is like create that kind of chemistry that makes you believe it's okay that they end up together Like if you can do that with your main actors, it works Betsy and theater they did they've done Othello a few times, but then their most recent production They had it take place on kind of like an army base. So everyone was like in camo And Amelia is like Basically without being said explicitly that's what she is But the way to have like a handmade and she's just like a like a sergeant who's like on base and a female So like Othello's like, hey, can you like help her out? Like while she's here So like that's how that works But the the way that they had Ophelia not Ophelia. Sorry does demona Um, I feel like more often than not I've seen does demona played very demure and very like Sweet and shy and innocent. This is demona was very not that she was like her and Othello Was seemed very much closer in age and very much close Like they seemed like a marriage of equals where they were very much in love with each other But she was like quite confident and quite sorry sirens Well, just so it's not silent Just gonna say that like and I don't and I think this is part of the interesting production of Othello The production history is like watching both of those characters change with the times And I don't think that the original does demona was supposed to be demure Like if she was then Othello wouldn't be able to buy Iago story about her part of what Makes Othello by the Iago story is that Desdemona is very charismatic and she does like Say what she wants. That's why she insists on going with them Like on territory tour So she's but I've also I've seen like some does demona is where she's played to be like overly like just flirtatious Yeah, and then you're like, well, that's why he thinks that because she's just like this big old flirt And like this wasn't like that she was very as you say very charismatic and very confident and very Like her own woman and like the way that the body language between the two of them felt very Much like of equals where they're very much in love with each other and very like into each other and Yeah, so like I really enjoyed that interpretation of both characters because like it gets a bit icky when it's too very I've seen somewhere like Othello is clearly a lot older and she's very sweet and demure and you're like This is very like dad and daughter vibes and you're like And that's kind of what the victorian era did to her like the victorian era Was obsessed with aphelia and desdemona and made both of them like Very demure like weekend versions because that's you know victorian era. That's what they that's what they did So they were but like that era just like the like the painters and everybody were very obsessed with those two characters I'm very obsessed with their deaths and making their deaths. Did you watch stage beauty yet? No, I haven't I need to For everyone else stage beauty is a movie about when women were finally allowed to be on stage And a male actor who had been playing women doesn't know How to act as a man and he doesn't think that women can do women as well as he can And he's kind of like this massive identity crisis because he's always played women And there's a way to play women and women don't know how to play women But they mainly use Othello as like the play the through line that like he was famous for dying beautifully as Desdemona and uh Yeah, it's a very good movie And if anybody wants to know that's kind of what my dissertation was on this like idea of these sexualized and beautiful deaths, so I have a whole chapter on desdemona. I find that play fascinating. So Next month when we talk about a new boy and Othello will have by then you should have watched stage beauty I will that will be part of my homework this month. There's watching that watching another production on the fellow Yeah, I'm excited to watch the rsc production about that. Oh, I haven't seen that Yeah And then the national theater production was great. So I'll have to add that to my those are harder to find like they usually only do Like you're usually only able to see national theater productions in the cinema Like when they do it and then like during covid for a few months They were like a play a week or putting them on youtube so you could for free Stream it but just for that one week, but like they're not There's you can't even like pay to like buy a dvd or anything Like there's literally you can't watch it unless you're in like in the cinema when they happen to be showing it The companion book for Othello is called new boy by tracy chevalier Yes, stage beauty is good And billy crud up is the male actor playing women and claire danes plays his like costume His seamstress and she's the first actress to be an actress Yeah, i'm gonna definitely gonna put that on my from my homework this week and i'll be in california in like two weeks, so Here it's hot but yeah, there's a protest going on outside my window today and like I even got an alert on my phone during this live warning me that there's a public safety alert because there's an unlawful assembly Right outside my window Like yeah, no i'm aware When are we discussing at the end of august ish Time is tbd Since we just decided like now that this yeah Worst week scenario we'll do what we did now and push it to the end of september when we'll talk about that and Yeah Don't ever read mcbeth but you read mcbeth Oh my god, the amount of times when I show people my tv r list Um like not like a stack of books, but just like written down my list and i had mcbeth and mcbeth and they're like well You don't need to mcbeth But I do Yeah, but yeah these were good these we can recommend And the play just shakespeare Yeah, and if you have any shakespeare questions send them send them to me for next time Yeah, I don't I have meant to and I might not have so I'll update it But I'll have your instagram in the description. Yes, so people can come harass you. Yes We can harass me about shakespeare all you want But then I might just give you homework and then send you to read some non shakespearean plays from that time I don't get enough Maybe that's what we should do too. Just like I'll make you a list of like non shakespeare plays that you must watch and then we Well, I'm making you watch stage beauty. So it's only fair We could watch the christopher eccleston revender's tragedy I love Christopher eccleston. I'd watch pretty much anything that he's in any isards in that one It's kind of already isard. Yeah, you already have me interested. Yes. Yes All right, well, thank you for inviting me on your oh my absolute pleasure. Thank you for loving shakespeare But also like how could you not tell me all this time? How about shakespeare all these years? Usually people are impressed I'm so impressed It's been an absolute delight. Usually I'm like so shakespeare and people are like, oh, he's he wrote romeo and julia, right? And I'm like So this has been an absolute delight Thanks for coming on