 Hello. Welcome to the Judge Ben Show. My name is Ben Joseph. I'm a retired Vermont Superior Court Judge. This is a program in which I interview people about issues, topics that concern the legal system in Vermont. Today I'm very happy to say that I have Doug DeSavito here, who's the state's attorney for Grand Isle County, and Dave Seacart, who's a victim's advocate who works in both Grand Isle and Franklin Counties. These men are here to talk about a recent development in which, out of the blue at the beginning of August, and we're speaking today on what is this, the 27th? August, is today the 27th? 27th or 28th. Yeah, okay. As we're taping this show, it's just happened earlier this month that the Grand Isle courthouse has been closed three days a week from Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. The public day cannot go in there in person, and there's some dispute as to what kind of access, if any, the public has on those three days of the week. So I think it's very important that we should have this conversation today so that people can understand what's going on, because not only is this affecting the people in Grand Isle County right now, but there's a prospect that this could happen in other rural counties, and the consequences would be even more severe. So today, Doug, I want to give you the floor, and I want you to explain what's going on, and then I want to talk to Dave about what impact this is having on people trying to get justice. Absolutely. Thank you, Judge. You've got the floor. So let me start off by quoting our Vermont Constitution. Oh, okay. The courts of justice in Vermont shall be open for the trial of all causes proper for their cognizance, and justice shall be thereon impartially administered without corruption or unnecessary delay. Have you heard that before? I thought of it often recently, yes. So that's what our Vermont Constitution offers. So the courts have to be open to the public. So the right of access to the courts and to justice is fundamental in our Constitution. The first Monday of this month, August 2021, I had been at the office, which is attached to the courthouse in Grand Isle County, and I noticed that there were no cars in the parking lot, which I just took notice of as being odd. But did my work and went home, and at 6.30, around 6.30 that night, I received an email from the Chief Superior Judge, Brian Greerson, that due to a security shortage of security officers, that they've decided to close the courthouse in Grand Isle County Monday, Wednesday, and Friday in that of every week. Temporarily, so it will not be open to in-person contact. It's my understanding from information that I've obtained that they are very hesitant to use the word closed, so that they're saying that the court... Or is there going to be someone in the courthouse? No. It's empty. That's my understanding that only on Tuesday or Thursday is there going to be someone in the courthouse. And the reason I believe those two days is on Tuesdays is when the probate judge, Judge Ned Spear, is there, and on Thursdays is the day that we have court family civil criminal division. So that's why. So bottom line is the majority of the week the courthouse is closed to the public, period. Before this announcement, the court would be locked, the door would be locked because of the pandemic, but people could still go to the courthouse, knock on the door, there's a security officer there, and they could pass paperwork back and forth, or could get forms or a court document, or what have you. That is no longer the case. The court administrator's office has been clear that this is not a closure. People can still access the court by email, by calling the court in Grand Isle, or if they really need to file something in person, they can drive over to Franklin County. I have a real huge problem with that, because what it does is it's treating residents of Grand Isle County differently than it does the other 13 counties. Not to mention that not everybody in Grand Isle has got a computer and a car. Not everybody has a computer, not everybody has a car, not everybody has a internet, not everybody has a scanner, and so the concern that I had was, for instance, someone seeking a restraining order, a relief from abuse, or a stalking order. And just so the public understands that people may not be familiar with the language we use. When you say someone needs a restraining order, is this something that a person can get to protect themselves? A court order saying they can't be struck again, that kind of thing? Yeah, so what a victim of domestic violence can do is they can apply for what's called a relief from abuse, an emergency relief from abuse order. And that is based, it's called ex parte, which means the judge is going to either grant or deny that based solely on the representation, sworn representation from one side, the victim or the plaintiff. And this can be an incredibly stressful, scary time for victims. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have my office's victim advocate here, because he deals one on one with these victims all the time. And I'm concerned that a victim will get one shot trying to flee their abuser. They might make it to the courthouse in North Hero on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and their signs plastered on the door, you know, were not open. However, you can email this law, there's an email address, your relief from abuse, or you can call 802-372-8350. And so what I did is I actually called the court on one of those days, Monday, Wednesday, I think it was a Friday. And this is what I, excuse me one moment, I have everything turned off here. It worked first, Judge. Take your time, take your time. So I called the court, the Grand Owl Courthouse. So that, so putting myself in the shoes of somebody fleeing an abuser or somebody that's been stalking them, and they're in a state of panic, and they're standing outside our courthouse, being told, we're open, just call this number. And not only do they get a recording that all lines are busy to call back later, but there was no mention of Grand Owl County. You reached the Franklin Court family and criminal division. And not to get technical, but a stalking order is not filed in the family or criminal division. It's filed in the civil division. So even then, you're not getting the proper court. So this is an untenable situation. And I've emailed the court administrator, Patricia Gable, on four different occasions, asking her, what steps did they take before making this decision? When were they first informed that this might be a possibility, that they were going to have a security coverage issue in Grand Owl? And several other questions, and I've received no response. Let's get this straight. Before this decision was made, no one talked to you about it? No. I had no idea. So was not aware that that was coming. So again, they're a separate branch of government. I'm in the executive branch, they're in the judicial branch, but I felt that given that I'm one of the partners in public safety, that they would have reached out to me, also would have reached out to me in advance saying, do you have any ideas? We're facing this. The narrative that I've seen them put out is that they first learned about this in June or so. But I have information that they were first notified that this might be an issue back in April. So I think it's going on for maybe five weeks now, and I have no information as to when this is going to change. And I'm extremely concerned, judge. And so, and as you know, in terms of like, cell coverage in the county, we have not the best cell service up in rural Grand Owl County. And there's several dead zones. My calls have been dropped before. So this is not perfect. It's extremely imperfect. And it's treating people that reside in a rural part of Vermont differently than if you reside in Burlington or if you reside in Rutland. And I have a hard time believing, and perhaps I'm wrong, that because I don't think this is going to be limited to one courthouse. I think they're facing issues statewide. I know there was an issue up in Franklin Civil, maybe I think down in the southern part of the state. But if they were facing the same security shortage at 30 Cherry Street in Burlington, Vermont, I don't believe their response would be, we're going to close this courthouse three days a week. Here's the signs you can call us. Or if you want to file something in person, you can drive to North Hero and they'll accept your filing. Dave, have you had any contact with people who tried to access the court? I have. I have your honor. Even prior to this happening, I've had multiple counties where victims have attempted to go later on in the day. Multiple counties I mean, other than Grand Isle. So this isn't just where it gets back to it being multiple counties that could be impacted by this decision. Where they've shown up maybe 15 minutes before close. I've actually had victims tell me they were told to come back later tomorrow. Really unacceptable in the sense that these are flee orders, emergency orders. Judges drop what they're doing once these orders come in to review them. In cases where we're talking sexual assault, domestic assault, stalking, most of the time in these cases, they're known perpetrators to the victim. It's not a random act in a lot of cases. Some cases it does happen, but most of the time it's a known individual to the victim. They're being monitored. This might be the one time they get to file an order and they show up to the court and hit another roadblock. They're unheard and they're defeated. And they go away? And they go away and could possibly go back to a more dangerous situation because the perpetrator now finds out that they've sought help via their phone, checking records on their phone, their email, even tracking the car. A lot of times there's tracking on their phones to show where they've been. So it's a total control situation. This is a public safety issue. Absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why I'm sworn to keep the public safe as best I can. And that's why I've been speaking out so much to try to fix this problem. I think what's significant... Do you think there's money available to hire people to provide security? I just heard on the news that there was like a $200 million surplus in the state budget. And I think you can't hire a security guard. This is... I don't understand it. I don't understand it either, Judge. I think what's unique about myself and Dave is that, unlike most people in our positions, we both worked for the Vermont Judiciary. I worked for them for six and a half years from 2006 to 2012. You were once a court officer when I was presiding on Graham Bell. Exactly. And so the other sort of narrative that's being placed out there is we need an armed security person at the door. And it's my understanding that the rules, the administrative rules in the Supreme Court do not require that. And so when I was working in North Hero, I had mace, pepper spray. I didn't have a gun, but I was the court security officer on non-court days, i.e. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. And so I was able to screen people in oftentimes because I wasn't a contracted security officer. I was an employee of the judiciary. They didn't need to be screened in because I was able to help them. Oh, you need that. I would do judiciary work. And that was during when I was in law school. But when I left the court in 2012, they never replaced my position. And just another point I want to make here so that we're clear. The law is crystal clear that in buildings that are exclusively courthouses, the responsibility of security is on the Supreme Court. So this was a situation where our Sheriff's Department was contracted, as in many other counties, to provide security. But given that he is having a staffing issue, he let them know that the one person he had there was going to be retiring and moving self. And so he opted not to renew the contract. And so the responsibility is no longer on the Sheriff. And it was only there because of a contractual obligation he had with the Supreme Court. But ultimately, the Supreme Court is the one that needs to provide security. And at this point, they're not. Well, if the legislature... Well, I don't know the particulars of the budgeting and how this is set up in terms of public finance. But obviously, the legislature could provide money to the Supreme Court for the purpose of providing a security guard. I mean, that's not complicated. It's not complicated. And they actually... It's my understanding that they also contract with a private security firm in a couple courthouses where it's not a certified law enforcement officer. So I don't know why this is... Why are they picking on you? I don't understand this. I wish I knew, Your Honor. I really do. Just to show another example of how this is impacting public safety, one of the options they have told people in Grand Isle County is if you need to file something during court hours, here's an email address to file. My office files things electronically, too. It's not an email, but it's through their system odyssey. And on... I believe it was a Monday, just a couple weeks ago, I was working with the Vermont Department of Children and Families regarding an emergent situation involving an infant at risk. And so what we call that is a child in need of care supervision that they're without proper parental care. Chins? Chins. Yep. Chins B. And so under the rules and the law, if it's an emergent situation, not only can I file a petition alleging that the child is in need of care supervision, but also an emergency care order request, the keyword being emergency. We need this kid in custody immediately. And that can happen if it meets a certain threshold in an affidavit. And the hearing has to happen within 72 hours, but the judge can order that immediately if it's an emergent. My office filed one with the court at 3.25 p.m. and at 4.30 the court closes and we never heard anything. And... Was there someone working in the courthouse when you filed this? No. It's my understanding that our grandile clerk, docket clerk, was working in St. Albans that day because our courthouse was closed to in-person. So they had... I was advised after the fact that the one staff person we have here, the docket clerk, was working in St. Albans that day. Is this all about saving money? I don't know. But I don't know. However, at 5.30 I have the Department of Children and Families scrambling saying, we need to know because this child and mother are due to be discharged from the hospital. And so I had to call a court operations manager after hours. I had to find her number and called her. And I said, I have an emergency situation here. We filed this more than an hour before you closed. Why haven't we? And I didn't get a really straight answer. And it's... She had to fire up her computer. And at 6.30, 6.40 we got the emergency carer to request, which means a judge deemed based on the affidavit that an emergency existed and DCF custody had to be given. So what if I was a victim emailing a complaint for an emergency relief from abuse and the court didn't act on it? They wouldn't know, like I did, to have a number of a court employee. Because individuals come in and file these things. Filing is not always done by someone like yourself. No. So this is... I hate to go back to it, but the situation is so untenable. And I just remain really concerned for the safety of the public, especially victims of domestic assault, stalking. Wow. Well, I'm just... I know that... Were you in contact with Senator Mazza, for example? I spoke with him once, yes. I've also been in touch with Senator Cory Parent, who is our Senator in Alberg, which is part of Grand Isle County. Today I was communicating with Representative Michael Morgan, who represents Grand Isle County in West Milton. What are you hearing from people in political office? I'm not hearing a lot. And the reason I believe I'm not hearing a lot is the judiciary. Most of them I'm sure know, but if not, we have three separate branches of government. We have the executive branch, the judicial branch, and the legislative branch. And they're separate entities. And so one doesn't have control over the other. I know the governor has been consulted by one or two of our legislators, and he doesn't have any direct control over the judiciary, because they're a separate branch of government. My concern, Judge, is that I've reached out, asking questions, looking for answers on four different occasions of the court administrator, who like me is a state employee. The Vermonters pay my salary. We also pay her salary. And to not respond to questions from the state's attorney, who is in charge of keeping the public safe and has a legitimate concern and interest in what's going on, to have complete silence, is really, really concerning to me. I think that's more what I'd see in a private corporation, but not in state government. Well, I don't know. Dave, is there anything you would like to add to this? No, I think it's really just serving the public. We are public servants. That's what we're paid to be, and we need to serve our constituents. If we're not doing that, what are we doing? Okay. Well, I appreciate you bringing us on. Well, no, I think it's very important. Anybody who's watching who thinks there's somebody else who should know about this, please contact Community TV in Burlington and ask if you can get a link on the internet, if you've got such a link. Find out a way if you can get access to the program, so it can be shown more broadly. That's one of the things. People in other counties who see this, I never know who's going to see these shows. I once did a show here about mortgage foreclosure, and within a week I got a call from someone in the Northeast Kingdom. I don't know how it happened, but somehow she had seen the interview. So she called me, and I gave her some advice, and within the month she had her house back. But that was just fortuitous. It was just a happy thing that happened. I never know who's going to see these shows. But I think it's vitally important that people in other counties, not just in Grand Valley or Franklin, for that matter, know what's going on, because somebody's going to try to take this up and get it solved. I want to thank you very much for coming in, Doug. Thank you for the invitation, George Joseph. You're welcome, Dave C. Card. Thanks again. I hope to see you again soon. Bye-bye.