 Hello and welcome to the Circular Metabolism podcast. This podcast is hosted by the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism held by Aristide de Tannassiades and Stefan Kanpermann at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. In this podcast, we talk with researchers, policymakers and different practitioners to unravel the complex aspects of what makes urban metabolism and economies more circular. This podcast is produced by the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism from the Université Libre de Bruxelles held by Aristide de Tannassiades and Stefan Kanpermann. In this podcast, we discuss with researchers, administrators and practitioners to clarify the different aspects that make the economy and the metabolism of our cities more circular. In this first episode of the Circular Economy podcast, Stefan and I present ourselves and present the objectives of the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism. To better situate our discussion and future discussions that we will have in the next podcast, we try to better define the circular economy and more particularly in the context of cities. Indeed, there is an excitement of different stakeholders around the circular economy and everyone offers another definition and another vision. We use the prism of urban metabolism to reflect, analyze and offer a more critical look at these initiatives that take place on our laboratory in Brussels, as well as elsewhere. Take advantage of this episode and meet us on our site CircularMetabolism.com to find more of our reflections and productions. Hello, my name is Stefan Kanpermann. I am an economist and I work at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. I work with my colleague Aristide, the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism and we will present today the contours and objectives. Let's talk about how an economist has become a circular economy. What does that mean for you? I will also introduce myself as you. My name is Aristide Athanasiadis. I co-anime the chair with Stefan. I am an engineer and an urbanist. I am in the Faculty of Engineering at ULB. Maybe we can give an interpretation on circular economy and urban metabolism. It will also interpret everything we will say in the next episodes. What is circular economy for us? And why will this chair help or not in this quest for Brussels in urban metabolism and circular economy? I can start by talking a little about what circular economy is for us. It is true that today we hear a lot about it. In the media, there are a lot of projects in circular economy that are launched by companies. There are also cities or countries that are heading towards a circular economy with action plans, strategic plans, etc. So, I think we can find some common elements in this discussion on circular economy, which still resonates with a lot of people. For me, it is one. Circular economy is a kind of response or opposition to the linear economy. And the linear economy is the economy that surrounds us. It is the idea that we can extract resources from primary materials on the one hand, convert them into goods, use them to make profit, and then, at the end of life, throw away the waste of pollution. So, this is the model or the functioning of the mainstream economy. It is a model that clearly touches the limits. Because on both sides, we have a distribution of resources. In the future, we will have more and more trouble producing the resources needed to maintain this function. This is a problem. On the other side of the chain, in terms of waste production and pollution, we also touch on the limits of air pollution, the discharge, the incineration. We have not even found the great recycling systems, so we have not found the parades of waste production and pollution in the big cities like Belgium. So, I think this is the circular economy, and above all, a response to this. After that, what is in a positive way? What is it going to be? What can be the circular economy? There is still a field of very large open experimentation. There are different interpretations of what it is. We can imagine a circular economy, multinationals who try to optimize their use of resources on the one hand, but we can also think of a break in relation to the functioning of cities in their ensemble, including the economic model behind them. But we, as economists, it is precisely this diversity of possible trajectories towards the circular economy that is interesting, and which is our research object. Is it going to be something specific to a city, to a functioning city, to an ecosystem of actors? Is it necessary to integrate large groups and capital to be able to make this transition? So, these are rather questions of departure and not of taking positions that we already adopt at present. So, this is a small introduction to our perspective in relation to the circular economy. Can you tell us a little about your side of the story? The interesting thing, I think, is that for us, and we have a lot to say about the word urban metabolism with the circular economy, is that when we talk about the circular economy in cities, it is very different than when we talk about the circular economy at the level of a national economy or at the level of an enterprise. That is to say that an enterprise can be easily optimized, as you say, it is fluid. There is also a country, because it remains very generic, and there is a little bit of everything, that is to say that there are activities of extraction, there are activities of production, there are activities of management, of waste. In cities, there is not everything. We are the knot of many things, but there are many practices that are not present. We do not have extraction, we do not have recycling often in cities, and suddenly, we also bring the flight of urban metabolism which, rather, analyzes the flows of cities, the understanding a little more complex, a little more systemic of cities, and we add a little layers, I think, thanks to that, of distance, of criticism compared to what the circular economy can and cannot bring. It is a promise. I think that, personally, I started with urban metabolism, and now I am attached to the circular economy because it is an opportunity that cities have broken up, governments have said to themselves, we are going. And I think that we both, but we are going to talk about it now, we are trying to say to ourselves what are the risks or not to set up programs, actions of the circular economy at the scale of cities. I think that in this, we can take the example of Brussels and continue what our share is. It is that Brussels, here it is, two years ago now, it launched its regional economic program circular economy, with its ten actions, and in the near future, they had done an study of urban metabolism, trying to analyze a little the flows and say to ourselves, here, what are the great challenges, what are the great areas of the circular economy that we can set up. Thanks to that, they have done something very big and very ambitious as a project, as a program. And I think that's where we also intervene with the share. It's a bit of a mirror effect, in any case, the administrations want a little of us to think with them about how we set up, whether we set it up well, is there anything else to consider? Maybe you can elaborate on the role of the share. So I think what is really interesting is this question what happens when the circular economy arrives on an urban territory? And how do we pass circular paths very theoretical, very easy to do? We can always say, ok, we don't do any more resources, we don't do any more waste production. We design a circle, and here is the whole thing. Here are the ten models of business that correspond to this circular function. And that's something that shows me because it's theoretical and it's easy to turn around to do some greenwashing, for example. What's really exciting is to know how this circular economy would be encarned in its metropolitan area. And here we are in Brussels, so it's our laboratory, our observation train. How could we imagine a circular economy for a city that is mainly tertiary like Brussels, with the size of a metropolis with more than a million inhabitants, with extremely important flows that come from the outside of the city like Aristidi. The city doesn't produce its raw materials, it doesn't produce its construction materials to renovate its building stock, it doesn't produce the food that allows it to feed it. The city is maintained by the definition of metabolic links with other territories that are outside of the city. Brussels's city has a tertiary economy but on a material basis because it's necessary to make this population live who lives without that and Brussels companies, even if they are tertiary, have a link with the material economy. So the urban metabolism, the perspective of urban metabolism allows for a territorial discussion of the circular economy. What does it mean? What are the necessary spaces for the circular economy? Do we need new infrastructures to re-circularize certain goods? Where are these circular companies that we're talking about located on the territory? What kind of buildings are they looking for by companies? Do we simply have in Brussels the type of entrepreneurship that could offer a circular economy given that there are a lot of offices, a lot of advice services or what we call control and command. Could this type of circular economy emerge like that in Brussels? What role can urban planning or administrations play in the stimulation in the research of this circular economy? So these are territorial questions and urban development that arise and that are fascinating because it's all new and so far the public authorities tend to leave the economy in its development and it's the market that leads the economic development strategy and in Brussels we're now in a situation where administrations push certain economic developments towards circularity and it's not necessarily the market or the entrepreneurs who have put it forward so it's a new way to imagine the economic development that's more rational or more oriented, more long-term with more environmental problems or societal problems than I would say in the 70s or 80s where we put everything on the market in a neoliberal zone where we let it go and as it's a new posture it also requires new reflections new tools to help the decision about this circular economy and we try to propose to administrations or other partners whether it's companies or associations we look a little more with a certain academic curve to say are decisions made in relation to the direction of the circular economy in urban context does it make sense? are we not going to have very good effects or perverse effects at the end of the line? are there things that are missing in the current perspective? are there blind spots or hot spots of the circular economy that are not yet identified that we could still develop more? so that's a bit I think the port we want to give is an academic curve or a certain curve without being in a curve we have to be completely detached to be able to give recommendations to be able to analyze we have to look closely at what's going on we have made part of a little discussion so it's a bit of research we're still in action as an epistemological posture of the approach of our dear in circular economy and urban metabolism maybe we can call this program we have to say that it's a pretty big program the program of circular economy in the region yes I think that it's quite interesting because there are still three ministers of the RSA there are four to five to six administrations of the RSA including the economy the environment the territorial planning the innovation the management of waste the urban management there are a lot of active administrations in there and I think that's where the challenge and that's where it's interesting for us to use as an interface to better understand what are the challenges of each one of these administrations when we talk about circular economy because they are completely different so there are some administrations that are going to bring let's say project calls of circular economy and we have the RSA in Brussels which is great we will try to see where we put the real RSA in Brussels there are others that will tell us how we will finance them and in all this program there is innovation innovation which is said to be good to give yourself a share of circular economy and we enter a little it's quite funny because we are part of the regional program and one of these actions we are part of it we are also a little distanced so we have a little the role of schizophrenia to be part of it but also to criticize in the right sense of the term criticize the actions and I think the idea and we will come back now is that the administrations they go they are convinced but unfortunately or fortunately the academics were not in this pre-alable or too much and I think it's one of our role also is to say what is the role of the academic in such a vast plan of administration how can we help what is the role of the research in it is to produce scientific articles and stay around to see if we want to so I think there is a strong mission of Ineoviris when we discuss it to think about the research in a different way and for us it's an experience as you said we as researchers of the Metabolism Orbain and the circular economy in the pre-alable we have done the classic scheme which is to analyze the flows that enter try to say to yourself what could we do but after some time we must be realistic and the people who will change this metabolism are the administrations or the actors we also learn to observe how we observe a transition of an urban metabolism or a circular economy through plans that are this it's a new job for us and for researchers how to create this interface between researchers between administrations and between actors these actors can be entrepreneurs they can be associations civil society etc so it's a whole new field that we discover I think which is really interesting maybe it's interesting to come back to a general question of what is the circular economy in Brussels today from our point of view so I have the impression that the origin of the discussion on the circular economy in Brussels was a bit an idea of green capitalism which was part of the environmental employment alliance which was a program of the previous regional government with this idea we need employment we have environmental problems and these environmental problems are going to be resolved by an offer of service an economic offer of Brussels companies so it's going to create jobs and so we have a symbiosis between the environment and the economy in this environmental alliance this was pushed by the IKOLO party who was at the head of the environmental ministry at the time with Eveline Heterbrouk but still in partnership with the Ministry of Economy and the Economic Administration so after the alliance of environmental employment metamorphosed and became after different discussions with the IKOLO party the regional program of circular economy which focuses on this economic model of circularity but which maintains the idea according to which environmental problems are economic opportunities and this way of doing or this way of envisaging leads to a posture to actions of the government which mainly aims to stimulate entrepreneurship and we are going to help for example the start-up who have circular models to launch by giving them subventions for example in the program called the circular bi-circular project so this is for the moment the line of force of what is happening in terms of circular economy today so we have start-ups which are launched which have circular models we have a kind of hypothesis that circular economy is good for the environment and for the economy and and we arrive now at a moment when we the academics enter the dance with our tools of observation and macro where we say will it be enough will it be enough will these start-ups these long-term entrepreneurs will this really make a change towards an important reduction of the production of waste towards something that will really change the way in the city so we ask questions about the big infrastructures of the waste management the way we collect the waste by the big infrastructures which are not really immediate economic opportunities which are rather the way in which the city works it is not obvious how to create work immediately like that it is obvious that the big waste goes through there so we would have to think about the general function of the city and not only how to stimulate the entrepreneurial better and there are also big problems to the idea that the entrepreneurs themselves will solve the problem because Brussels is not really a entrepreneurial city in this area Brussels is a functional city and a very small population with little access to capital and necessary knowledge to build a technologically or very sophisticated company so suddenly there is a huge amount of entrepreneurship that is now taking advantage of the so-called circular bias project and the associative environment with the social economy but we are still confined to a circular economy of niche in its impact on the volume but also niche compared to which part of the urban economy is actually activated for the circular economy so there for us it is very interesting to try to think about how to enlarge how to colonize other parts of the urban economy in the promotion of the circular economy like the immobilized sector the urban projects the role of the urban project in the circular economy and not only focus on the role of entrepreneurship and startups in the circular economy but what would also be good to remember is that we have an idea of how to start these questions and how to operationalize all of this I think that all of this will evolve in the future obviously and that we are asking ourselves these questions in an incremental and progressive way we are part of the view that we should better understand ourselves what is happening in Brussels and in Belgium in terms of research of the circular economy so as not to double to try to create this collaboration especially in in the academic environment often there are parallel projects that do more or less the same thing without even knowing and that is the fault of nobody it is the fault that there is a lack of cooperation collaboration, communication we will try to try to reduce this lack of communication that is clear, that is one part on the other side there are the administrations who say here we do like that we do as we can and as we know and the best practices that we can find outside, here they are and we say listen, there is such a university that does this beautiful project and it has been for years it does not go into the circular economy but it can help us too so we try to do this matchmaking but also try to say here are these entrepreneurs or associations does it work in Brussels? does it worth it? how can I help? we are not the mechanism that helps to create business models but it is rather there is already all that maybe you would have to look a little differently or there are calls to approach whether it is inoviris or hub or research that we would like to integrate into because a person like you would be super interesting to complement the research and I think it is really the heart of our work here we call it to accelerate and to improve the exchanges between these three environments and we do it a little differently so it is one on one we have a lot of calls meetings but there is also this aspect of small projects that will bring big projects it was inside our chair we have this particularity we are gifted by some budgets to create, launch small missions short term where we we question where we try to dig a little more a thematic subject that interests a lot of people in Brussels and try to formulate a first answer then establish a debate and try to find funding for bigger projects so we did our first mission which was on urban economy that we discussed a little bit now we think of doing other on plastics on the management of plastic waste or other plastic materials and that's it I think that first of all this interface through projects it is a little bit our heart of our work for the next years so in relation to our role as an interlocutor for the non-academic interlocutor world between us we are part of the university and the circular economy outside the university I think what we need to remember is that the circular economy has the advantage where to break the silos between economy environment management of public space management of waste these different problems or these different urban challenges are treated in a very separate way there is an economic strategy the economic administration the people of the environment also work on plans but they are not connected so the circular economy as it is something very holistic a question in the economic system in its whole if we go to the end force the administration to talk about shared understanding shared diagnosis and the tools of shared work and this is what happened in Brussels the regional and circular economy program is really a very close collaboration in the technosphere especially in the different administrations Brussels environment Brussels property companies companies that change every 10 minutes but companies in charge of these different themes and so we see in Brussels a collaboration in a circular economy very close between these different administrations and these different skills in the academic environment we do not have the equivalent of that at the academic level we are still in the specializations of faculties of disciplines we talk a lot about of trans-disciplinarity but in reality the academic career is still based on a specialization and on the idea of becoming an expert in a small niche where we have advanced the knowledge and so for the real world for the life of Brussels and its government it was very difficult to activate the unicenter environment because with their more collaborative approach more mixing the specializations in front of specialists on small issues it is difficult to work together and so we thought we will play more in the role of generalist and do not insist on the specialization in the field but we try to understand how we can work together between economist, urbanist