 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa on Sunday, soldiers at several army bases across the West African nation of Burkina Faso rebelled, demanding the sacking of the military top brass and more resources to fight a bloody, jihadist insurgency in the country. Later in the day, gun shots were heard near the private residence of the president in the capital, Wagadugu, and witnesses reported seeing a helicopter hovering above it. Well on Monday, those mutinous troops arrested President Christian Cabore and detained him in the army barracks, and later that day the soldiers went live on national television to announce that they had deposed President Roch Cabore, suspended the constitution, and dissolved the government and the National Assembly, and closed the country's borders. The announcement signed by Paul-Ori Asando-Go Damibah and Lieutenant Connell, and read by another officer, Sid Sore Kedah-Wedrago, on state television said the takeover had been carried out without violence, and those detained were in a secure location. Now this is the third military takeover in the West African sub-region in the last 18 months. Why? Now to help us answer this and other questions, let's say good morning to Paul Ejime, who is a global affairs analyst, and he joins us this morning on the breakfast. Mr. Ejime, good morning to you. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. So let's start with the first question, why? Why are we having repeated incidences of coups in West Africa? We had Mali, we had Guinea, and now we have Burkina Faso. What's going on? I will probably have more. It's not a good prophecy or prediction, but it's really predictable the way things are going. It is a lack of good governance, or if you like poor governance and the fact that what now matters to politicians is themselves, not the people, and the fact that the population also has a blame here, because the recruitment system, the politicians have studied and maybe found a way out of the structures of democracy, and are now using them to either gain power or perpetrate themselves in power. They fiddle with the constitution, they conduct flawed elections, and then they abuse human rights. These are the triggers and drivers of these incursions, and then I think West Africa should be really careful that we, at the end of this year, will not end up with having half of the ECOAs member states being governed by the military. The military has no place in the, they are not wired to govern, but the point is that each time you find these politicians doing unconstitutional acts, and then the civilians come on the streets, they use the same military to suppress them, and then the military now, where they say, well, since they have the instrumentality, the power of question, they can now rise up and say, well, listen, you get out, but that is not to say that they have done a very good job of it, because that is not their remit, that is not their mandate. It is to protect the country and protect the citizens. But the politicians are not doing that, having the so-called mandate of the people. So questions should be asked, how do we, we have now given you the background to how we got here, how do we get out? I think we will answer that as we go on this program. Alright, are we moving forward or backward in Africa? I mean, you're looking at the fact that we've had several coups over the past years. It would have been thought that democracy, when it was gaining a foothold in Africa, you've had, you know, elections in stable countries, even those that have dictatorships like Togo, they've been stable over the past years, like, like Kimberlain have been stable over the past years, and more would have thought that Africa was, had moved on from the 90s, the 80s, and the 70s where coups were the order of the day. We look at what's been happening since 2017 in Zimbabwe, there was a, what do you call it, guardian coup in November 2017. In April 2019 Sudan had a coup. In August 2020, there was a coup in Mali. In April 2020, 21, there was a Chadihan Kovet coup. In May 2021, another coup in Mali. In September 2021, a coup in Guinea. October 2021, another coup in Sudan. And now we're here in Burkina Faso. Are we going back to the 70s, 80s, the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s? Well, I like your chronology and that it couldn't have been, you know, it's very factual. And then it's there for everyone to see. So what is there? What I can say is that it appears that there is a progression in democracy, but democracy is not the question. It is a practitioner, the politicians who have now found a way around it using, like I said, the structures and institutions of democracy to now, you know, do their own bidding and not governing. They are now, they are not starving. They now want to be served. But leadership is tabas, so it is lack of leadership. It is, you know, that debt of leadership is costing all this. And so the people will now have to take power from this because the power is given to this. They are elected to serve the people. They're holding power in trust. But what they are doing there is not in trust. They are actually dominating and then nodding it over the people. And that is why the civil society and the citizens, before you now vote, you have to look at the credentials of people you are putting in power. Money plays a big role and cohesion. Like I said, they use this military that have now found a way of saying, don't listen. For instance, where was it? Somebody who was, you saw him holding the umbrella for one of the heads of state, but later became the one who took over from him. That is in Guinea. So it will continue unless and until African leaders learn to govern. People in Africa, the electorate, hold their leaders to account because that is not happening. Instead, at times they are clapping for them or they will be the ones to go and vote when they have referendum to change constitutions. And suddenly, and then you see when the military takes over, there is a jubilation. That honeymoon does not last because the military, when they haven't tested power, they also want to perpetrate themselves. And so that is not their role. But what do you do? If you make a peaceful change impossible, then you have to go for violence. So the politicians, the leadership, it is that deficit of leadership that is happening. That is what is causing all this. And I think Africa should go back to the drawing board. This idea of one step forward and then so many steps backwards cannot consolidate democracy. And so, the Kuwait, the AU, everybody have a long way. They are not playing their role like in the past. You mentioned the 70s, 80s, and people were offered, when you were having two governments, one in the bush and one in the city, is that where we are going? But they know why we are there. When these politicians are doing what they are doing, their colleagues are not calling them to order. For instance, the Kuwaiti in Burkina Faso, nobody will tell me that it came out of the blue. No, because for several months, people have been on the streets protesting. So it brings me back to, I mean, right there immediately, but I'm sorry that I have to interject so we can actually share your thoughts on this one. Some people are already saying that maybe military governments are right the way forward for Africa as it is, because just like you were mentioning that Burkina Faso didn't just happen, you had the fact that civilians, including the military, crying out about all of the ills that's going on, especially the fact that the government could not tackle the issue of Islamic insorgences at a time that destabilized the government. And with all the countries in the region that experienced the coup, this has always been the case. And in Nigeria as well, you also have a lot of people who will be saying, maybe we should go back to the military. So the question now is, do you think that the military is the way forward for Africans? No, I mean, that will be, because you will notice that the military also organized states' coups against themselves. So if they were wonderful, you would think that they would bring the heir to that people want. But how can we be thinking like, you know, as if we are going back to the stone age, are we now an early man, the king man? When the rest of the world are moving towards development, they are moving towards digital life, you know, how can the military, military is not why and they cannot. It is not their role. So it is that the politicians are now providing them with the excuse. But that is why I say, well, the solution is for the people to take back back power. You know, they cannot kill everybody. The military, you saw what we, I see what is a unraveling in Miami. Let them kill. They can, the civilians or the electorate are becoming too comfortable. They don't want to die. Every father will say, my mother is there, my father is there, my child is there. But you have to sacrifice. Freedom can never be given. You have to take it. Rights, your right is to be taken, to fight for it. Nobody can surrender their right. The politicians are enjoying themselves. They don't want to leave power. That is why they have this issue of elongation. That is why they read elections to remain in power. And then because they are enjoying it, but that is not the way. They are not serving the people. African leaders are not leading. The APU African Union is not doing this job that carry out organization of African unity. And then the regional economic communities like Echoes, they have now fallen back. They are losing steam. They are no longer doing what they are supposed to do. You know, there are instruments that they can use to call just like they are now condemning political military coups. There are instruments that says that you have to respect the Constitution. You have to respect the rights of the people. You have to respect, you know, rule of law. But they are not addressing that. All they are saying is, what's the military? The same military that they use, they are point, in any case, they are point, the military hierarchy. And they cannot rule without, you know, they have the, there is a marriage, you know, of inconvenient between the two of them, the military and the politicians. But now when one sees that they are not getting what they want, the people become the victim, let people rise. For instance, in Burkina Faso, what has heightened the thing was civilians were being killed by these insurgents. And suddenly, soldiers were involved, scores of soldiers, recently about 20 soldiers were killed. And they're telling President Cabaret, do something. And he wrote on that to gain power, to be elected in 2015. Now he cannot do anything. Just like Keita in Mali, he has said that he will fight terrorism. They never do that. Instead, they will use the weapons that were donated by partners to go and be terrorizing and oppressing the civilians. And then civilians, they don't have arms. They don't have the question. That instrument is the military that has it. That is why it appears that it's a military. In some senses, the military is venting, elevating the anger, the frustration of the people. But their own is also that they overdo it. Some of them are adventurers. They want to get power, very young people. But they need to be guided, to be told that they have position, they are citizens by the way. But every citizen, everybody you have your role to play is society. That is why it happens that cannot do the job of an electrician or engineer. Okay, but let me take you back again, because I remember when we had this conversation of recent, when we were talking about the Mali and Ku. And you said that the community, especially the Echoes community had not moved swiftly because they probably would have moved with the sanctions. And now we have seen that Mali had been sanctioned. But it doesn't really change anything. One would think that that would be a deterrent to other countries and maybe the junta's in other countries to take a lesson from there. But it feels like these sanctions from Echoes doesn't really hold way. I mean, it's not effective. Yeah, I can't remember saying that the sanctions, sanctions alone can do it. What I'm saying is for them to play it by the rule. Because the politicians, they are the partly the reason they cause for this by their conduct, by their body language, and then by what they do. And people are listening to them. People are watching them. You cannot go and change the constitution illegally to give yourself a power, to gain power or perpetuate yourself or re-elections and begin to disrespect the rights of... So many people are not obeying human rights or respecting human rights. Many people are in jail. For instance, in Benin, a woman is in jail because she dared to contest the presidential election. Now they have thrown her in jail citing terrorism because of charges of terrorism. And nobody is saying anything there. When Kondi was sending the constitution in Mali, you know, in Guinea, nobody said anything. When Keita was oppressing his people and becoming too hard on them because he faced a deliver on a security issue, nobody talks. It was now when the civilians were on the street. You will always see this that civilians at times they do their bit but because they are powerless. They don't have their weapons. So that is why it appears. But this in Burkina Faso was the place where civilians came on the street about two million of them in 2014 to force them from office, place campare. You remember him. The man who has now been implicated in the killing of his friend in the coup of 1987, Thomas Sankara. And they are now trying to begin a trial for campare. It is not unlikely that campare supporters who do not want the his trial could be part of the elements that are working to stop that trial. It is not impossible. But the whole bulk stops at the level of a leadership. It is the lack of leadership because if you wanted to make a man, if you're visionary, you're revolutionary, you're thinking and you have the interest of the people at heart, you move a boat beyond your own personal interests to talk about the collective. The African leaders are not thinking about collective. They are thinking about self and their families and their friends. That is the difference. But you are given the mandate to govern for the whole people. You become the president or prime minister for the whole nation. So you've made a point. Sorry to interrupt you, sir. But you've made a point that the African Union, the economic community of African states, and basically the leaders on the continent should not just only stand up to condemn coups and to place sanctions on nations where you have coups, but should also advise their peers when they're going wrong. But some people have said these coups, no matter how well-intentioned they are, no matter how many people are crying on the streets because you will agree that even though you have people protesting against the governments in these West African countries, including Burkina Faso, those in power also have their supporters who can also go on the streets. But some have said that the worst democracy is better than the best military rule or the best military intervention. And the best way to solve this out is either through people power or through the ballot box. Let's go back to Mali, where you talked about the removal of Keita. We can see that these guys came in May 2021. And to date, we don't know what's happening with the elections in that country. They've suspended or extended the elections through five years down the road, five years. And of course, brought in the Wagner Group, Russian private military force into that country. So shouldn't we be doing everything we can whether the civilians are doing well or not to still condemn and reject and dissuade military intervention in our democracy in West Africa? Yes, I agree with you, condemn, but after condemnation, what follows? You know, you mentioned the fact that in Mali, look at what is happening. Actually, it was 2020 that is the goal that people took over and then organize another coup in August of 2021. So they have what you call bad faith actors. They came there, they haven't done anything for the past 16 months. And that is part of the problem. But now, a coup was a body made up of 15, now they have suspended them too. Maybe they will also add their bucket and vaso to the list. But that is not the issue. Sanctions or suspension, what's next? You now have to negotiate with the support to bring them to the table and tell them, it's like a child that is misbehaving in the family. What do you do? Do you kill the child? Or do you isolate them or send them away? You as a statesman, but because these statesmen have not acted in good faith. You mentioned Wagner. What business is it of anybody to begin to meddle in? Nigeria, at one point, asked them to help. The Nigerian leader, Ypres Debbie, was pushing Boko Haram and everybody from his own territory to Nigerian territory. By the way, we have also to talk about the influence external factors. France has not conducted itself in glory. In its former colonies in West Africa, in Africa, so that is part of the problem. It is France that is pushing this issue of Wagner. Because Russia, they want to dominate. It wants to continue to dominate its former colonies in Africa. That is why it is against any other country coming in. You know, but that is their own national interest. But why should Africans now? Africans are supposed to be independent. Why should they co-assure for instance, be hammering on the fact that if France says, France has been there since 2013, and then there is a UN peacekeeping force of about 15,000. France has about 5,000. They have not been able to end the insecurity of Mali. And the Malians are now saying, listen, let us try, by the way, France says they are drawing down on the 5,000 that they have. And the fact that 15,000 from the UN have not been affected. And this guy said, okay, let us go to another country to help us. So is it, we're in the constitution, we're in the international charter, does he say, that you cannot conduct your bilateral relations with any other country. So it is that pandering to external forces that has put Africa, the EU, and the Coas in this mess. We have to go, I'm sorry, Jim, we have to go. Very, just in one sentence, what's it take on the increasing Jihadist and insurgency threat across the northern parts of several West African countries? Chad, they have had an experience, Nigeria is having his experience in Mali. They've had an insurgency for donkey years now up north and we're hearing also about Kilefa. So, and these are also linked to the Coas. What's your take on this growing sort of Jihadist insurgency sweeping across West Africa? Well, we have to look at the cost, or the cost is some of them are political, or that's the fact that they eliminated Gaddafi in Libya and that has created a window for all these armed groups to coalesce and then mobilize. The issue also, they talk about there are factors that are responsible, it could be political, it could be exclusion, it could be economic. So let African governments come as a collective, partnership, terrorism, you can't fight it alone. Come as a group and then decide. But by the way, make sure that individually in your countries you are not promoting or inadvertently promoting this type of insurrection or hatred or all kinds of things. Governance is about the welfare of the people. If you know the factors that are giving rise to insurrection and then go and address it meaningfully, faithfully and then honestly. Thank you very much. Paul Lajime is a global affairs analyst and he's been given some very, very interesting and intelligent analysis on the unfolding events in the West African nation of Burkina Faso following that coup d'etat there. Merci. Well, thank you sir. Thank you for having me. Thank you Paul Lajime for coming. We do appreciate your time and we look forward to having this conversation as we proceed. While we will actually take a break when we come back, we will be looking at the suspension of the subsidy by the federal government and implication for the PIA. Stay tuned.