 Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners thanks to all of you including Alexander Nashev, Hector Bones and Tim Ashman. Coming up on DTNS, Rod Simmons brings the insider perspective on company security. Why do so many employees need access to everything? Or do they? Plus, the EU makes USBC the law and the economy finally comes for the app store. This is the Daily Tech News for Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chance. Joining us, the host of SMR Podcast, Barbecue and Tech, and so much more, Rod Simmons, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. It's been a long time coming. I'm super excited to be here. It's good to have you. Long time listeners of DTNS will have last heard you on the electric car, the EV roundtable. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. So not too long, but too long if you know what I mean. Something like that. We've missed you, Rod. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. All right, let's start with a few tech things you should know. The Connectivity Standards Alliance released the first version of the Matter Smart Home Compatibility Protocol on Tuesday. Matter Let Smart Home Device Makers certified that their product can work with any other device that also supports matter. It uses Wi-Fi and thread for data communications and Bluetooth low energy for provisioning. And it doesn't need the internet to continue working. Matters supported by all the major smart home device makers, Samsung, Google, Amazon and Apple. Device makers can now certify their products and put the Matter Compliant badge on their products so you also know. And if you want to know more, we highly recommend reading Stacy on IOT.com. Yeah, that's Stacy Higgin by them. She does good stuff. The 2022 Nobel Prize for Physics was awarded to three people, Francis Alain Aspect, John Clouser of the United States, and Austria's Anton Zeilinger for experiments that proved elements of the theory of quantum mechanics. Clouser showed in 1972 that light could be entangled, meaning that two photons could share properties no matter how far apart they are. That doesn't allow you to do faster than light communication, I'm sorry to say. In fact, that's what Alain Aspect proved in his experiments, ruling out an alternative explanation for entanglement. And Zeilinger built on their work to show how entangled systems could be linked together in a secure network since the measurement of quantum systems easily reveals the presence of an eavesdropper or man in the middle. Google launched new Nest hardware. The second-gen NestWired doorbell eliminates fisheye distortion on its camera. It can record up to an hour of footage to internal memory and is available now in the U.S. for $180. The Nest Wi-Fi Pro supports Wi-Fi 6E. It includes a built-in thread border router and will support matter. A one-pack costs $200 and you add $100 to each unit in two and three packs. It's available for pre-order now and ships October 27th. The new hardware will use Google's redesigned Home app available in public preview in the next few weeks. This adds a new Favorites page, supports using sensors to trigger automated routines, and uses the camera interface from Google's Nest app. A web version will be available at home.google.com with a Wear OS app coming as well. Later this week we're going to have Congressional Dishes Jen Briney on the show to talk to us about the U.S. Chips Act since she may be the only person in the country who's read all of it. One of the reasons the U.S. Pastry Chips Act is that there's a move to diversify the chip supply chains away from mostly being in mainland China. And of course every country wants to be the home for some of those new factories. Companies want to be the ones running those new factories. Here are three cases in point out of today's news. Samsung announced it's going to triple advanced chip production capacity by 2027 and includes a plant outside Austin, Texas in those plans. In a race against Taiwan's TSMC, Samsung also said it's going to mass produce three nanometer chips starting in June, targeting production of chips on a two nanometer process by 2025 and a 1.4 nanometer process by 2027. Micron announced it'll invest $100 billion to build four separate chip fabs on a 1,300 acre site in Clay, New York, just north of Syracuse. It'll start construction on a $20 billion mega fab in 2024 with production starting at that fab in 2025. And Apple released a suppliers list in the Wall Street Journal noticed that 48 of the 180 suppliers had at least some of their sites in the U.S. That's up from 25 last year. Still, almost all the suppliers on that list had operations elsewhere, Japan, South Korea and 150 of the suppliers and remember they had them in multiple locations, but 150 suppliers had sites located in China. Bloomberg reports that Elon Musk sent a letter to Twitter on Tuesday offering to buy the company for $54.20 per share. Yes, you are listening to the October 4th 2022 edition of DTNS. You have not gone back in time. Yes, that is also exactly the same price as the original offer that Musk made back in April. No, we don't really know why yet either. Keeps us on our toes. CNBC says the deal could be completed as soon as Friday and if that happens, it would avoid this trial that was set to begin October 17th. Yeah, it's Musk offering to buy Twitter and the EU requiring USBC and the Digital Services Act. These are our April shows all over again, but let's talk about a couple of laws making progress in the EU. The European Council approved the Digital Service Act. So now it's law or it's about to become law. The Digital Service Act is the one that applies to social platforms and search engines that have at least 45 million users in the EU. It affects targeting of users. So there's new rules about that, what you can and can't do. It has some rules against dark patterns. That idea of, you know, making the yes button a little easier to see and click than the no button. Stuff like that requires transparency about how algorithms promote content, how they recommend content. Platforms are going to have to explain why they remove content and give users an ability to appeal takedowns. Companies must also disclose any steps they're taking to combat misinformation and propaganda. The regulation is going to be published in the official journal on October 13th and then it goes into effect 20 days after that. So most of the measures will apply 15 months after it goes into effect. That's built into the law. The law goes into effect 20 days after the 13th. So October 33rd, November 2nd. And then and then the law says 15 months from then you get you have 15 months to get ready for this 15 months from that. In 2024, you have to start following these rules. Now you may be wondering about the very similarly named Digital Markets Act, the DMA. That's the one that requires messaging apps from big companies to interact among other things. That was enacted back in July and that will go into operation early next year and go into full force in 2024. So Digital Services Act, Digital Markets Act now both law in the EU. But there's another EU law making progress that's probably going to impact more of us, even those of us outside of the EU. Indeed. So the European Parliament voted 602 to 13. Pretty overwhelming victory to approve legislation that will require phones, tablets, cameras and laptop makers to support USBC charging. The aim is to reduce the number of chargers that people need to have and in theory will reduce waste. The law now heads to the European Council where it's expected to get approved. Once it goes into force, each European country will have 12 months to put the law on its own books. Then companies will have 12 months after that to comply. So we're looking at the end of 2024 to be when phones that are sold in Europe will have to support USBC charging. Laptops wouldn't have to come into compliance until the spring of 2026. Now a couple of things to note on this directive. If any product put on the market before the rule applies can continue to be sold. You don't have to yank everything off the shelves. So you may see some companies flooding the market. The rule applies to a wide number of electronics. Phones, laptops, tablets, they get all the attention, but it also includes digital cameras, headphones and headsets, handheld video game consoles, portable speakers, e-readers, keyboards, mice, portable navigation systems, and earbuds even like your AirPods and your Beats and all those. It only applies to devices that charge by a wired cable of up to 100 watts. So you may think, oh, they can get around the rules by going wireless. It does not apply to smaller electronics like smartwatches and fitness trackers because they don't pull 100 watts. But there is going to be a standard for wireless in this law as well. The law doesn't name that standard. It requires the European Commission to come up with a plan for wireless charging interoperability by the end of 2024. So I just want to be sure on this one. You said it doesn't apply to wireless at least as of right now. But if I have a device like I think if you take like my Sony headsets, I can wireless and wire charts them. Yeah. If it's got the wired on there, then it has to support USB-C. So for this, I'm absolutely sick and tired. I travel a lot for my day job and there's literally nothing worse when you're traveling than I have a cable for my Bose headsets. I have a different cable for my phone. I have a different cable for my... Yeah, I signed me up. I'm fully with this one. You know, I am too. I feel your pain. Very much so. In fact, it's the most stressful part of packing for any kind of trip because I try to not forget something, but I often do. Some of this does seem like, okay, well, this seems more convenient. Like you mentioned, Tom, we might see some products getting on shelves before they have to change everything and provide USB-C interoperability because they don't already. And if you obviously have a product that charges some other way, it's not just going to magically stop working or anything like that. We also see technology evolve. You know, by the end of 2024, we're probably still going to be on the USB-C train. But there's no doubt in my mind that it will continue to advance and then you kind of have to go back to this rule all over again with what's available at the time. Yeah, I like the standardization. I'm not sure that I fully am on board with this being the way to get it. It's sort of like, well, at least we got it. But I don't know that a law that extends out to 2026 is the best because they have said we will continue to adapt to new standards as they come. But there's two things to that. One, okay, how? We haven't seen the details on that. That's not in the text of the law. I'm just taking your word for it and I'm curious how that's going to work. And two, if companies are only required to do USB-C, they're less likely to develop those new standards. So granted, the USB implementers form will continue to develop and there'll be a new standard coming from them. I'm certain of that and the EU can work with them. But it may not be, there may not be as much encouragement to develop an even better standard, if you know what I'm saying. Unintended consequences. Yeah. You both brought up very good points. I'm still for it. Let me be very clear because it's less cables I need to carry. Yeah, I am for that too. Your points are absolutely valid. Well, perhaps also valid is the fact that app stores might not be making all the money that they used to be making. Morgan Stanley, analyst Eric Woodring noted that data from Sensor Tower indicates that revenue from Apple's app store dipped 5% on the year in September, and Google Play revenue fell 8% on the year. Revenue in China, Taiwan, and South Korea bucked that trend. They stayed even or even grew a little bit, but other markets were dipped. Revenue from gaming took the biggest hit, dropping 14%. And if you're saying, well, the bad economy, it's probably the reason. Well, you could go apply for a job at Morgan Stanley because that's what they said as well. Bad economy. So these things tend to dip. The numbers could bounce back in Q4. We got an extra week. Exchange rates may end up being favorable by then. Apple also raised their app store prices in many markets to probably make up some of that money. I'm wondering, Rod, do you feel like it's just a bad economy? Do people just want a game less? No, it's totally a bad economy. If you think about gaming as disposable income, when you have less disposable income, you're probably going to make some sacrifices. In our daily lives, people are, oh, I don't go to a gas pump because I drive electric, but people who do go to a gas pump are saying gas is more expensive than what I'm dealing with. All the services of what I'm dealing with are more expensive. The energy costs, if you're dealing with in the EU and the whole war that's going on with Russia and Ukraine, all of those things sort of factor into I have less disposable income to work with. Therefore, I choose to make cuts in certain areas and that starts with app store purposes. And I think you see that sort of moving down to other services like Netflix and Hulu. Customers will start to make the decision that maybe I don't need commercial freeze. So I'll save myself a couple bucks a month and deal with commercials on some of those platforms. Yeah, I feel like this is a potential sea change because app stores have been a cash cow for Apple and they haven't been bad for Google either. Pretty much since day one, they are just money printing machines. And I know a lot of Apple's future first party ad revenue plans are predicated on selling ads within the app store to direct you to other apps. If this starts to be less of a cash cow for them, certainly, you know, Apple and Google aren't going to hurt too much, but it is going to have to shift their strategy and it is going to affect especially Apple's plans for making money off services. If they had expected this much to come from app stores and suddenly that that is declining instead of growing. So I guess the way I kind of look at it is there's always like the new normal. I think when gas prices were close to, let's say, $5 a gallon, people are like they're making decisions not to go certain places to because they don't feel like paying $5 a gallon, but eventually it becomes a new normal. So the the new lower gas prices is higher than the old gas prices and we just kind of adjust. So while I think it's a this is a temporary impact, I think that over time we'll get used to that's just what apps cost and I haven't had those for a while. So people will start to come back in and drove. I think it's just Apple and Google are probably looking at this. This is temporary. It's not a long term impact for their businesses. Yeah, that makes sense, especially when there's that one Chevron that's still charging six over there. That's great. Oh, it's $6 Ryan. I don't know. Sam sounds like a positive deal. Wow. Yeah, for a long time I, you know, I've reviewed lots of apps for work. So I think I've been, I, I am not totally a normal example of how much somebody wants to pay for an app. Cause, cause I was, I was downloaded just pretty much any app, no matter what it costs for a while. And I still do that to a certain point. I think many folks perhaps over, you know, a period of time that, you know, if you have a finite amount of money and you say, okay, well, this much money can go to, you know, like fun stuff, you know, in app stores that I'm willing to pay for or in that purchases. Even if you get tired of a game, let's just use games as an example. You might say, I don't want to pay for this anymore. But I like the time that I spend on this game and I'm going to now spend that money towards this new game. But when you have a bad economy overall, that's not necessarily the decision that people come to. They say, well, I just have to do this less because I need the money. I'm going to cut back my spending. Yeah. And it may not be like with a game, it's like, I'm just not going to do the in app purchases. I'll grind my way through the capabilities in the game and earn it versus paying my way out of frustration. That would be an interesting metric. Find out if time spent with the games goes up as they spend less on the games because they're grinding more, you know, you might see that. Well, folks, if you have a thought on that, you have some data on that, maybe you just want to find out where Rod can get gas for $5 a gallon. Email us feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. A few weeks back, Peter Zatko, aka Mudge, the former security leader of Twitter, alleged in an SEC filing and to the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee that somewhere around the number of 4,000 employees or so at Twitter had pretty much unfettered access to data on the network, including data associated with Twitter accounts. It's been exaggerated what data was available. And at the same time, that's a lot of people having a lot of access. Zatko also said it was very difficult to identify if specific data was taken because the company didn't monitor or log all the employee access. Rod, you've got a lot of experience in network security, in strategy, in compliance. In your experience, let's just focus first on that number. Is it common to have that many people in a company with access? Well, okay. So, no, let's start with that. However, depending upon the function that you're within, let's take Twitter since this is a use case example. You might have people who specialize on Twitter with just profile management, another group of people who specialize on Twitter with things such as verified users, and then some people who handle tweets, takedowns and all those. So, you might have thousands of people who have very specific specialties within Twitter, but carte blanche access across the entire platform. Yeah, that's very abnormal. But in most companies and organizations, it's not abnormal if you're talking Fortune 500 companies that they have a team of database developers, and there might be 500 to 1,000 database developers who all have some level of access to the database platform to make modifications and changes because the application is just so large and they work in groups and teams to sort of deliver a solution. Go ahead, Sarah. Okay, I was going to say for, okay, so, Rod, you're saying 4,000 employees sounds like a pretty high number. What are the implications of the data that seems it is still quite unclear how many of those people had what kind of data? What kind of data would this, you know, would having so many folks having this access to, even if it's unusual, then what are the implications? What's the worst that can happen? So I think if you take a step back, I think where the first place you start is, do they have access or do they have persistent access? And two things. So for most organizations, they're leveraging credential vaults. I think you guys are familiar with something like a last pass, but in the enterprise, you're using solutions like cyber arc, psychotic, beyond trust, and then there's Hashi Corp and there's hundreds of others. In that kind of model, those are really designed for either highly privileged accounts. So my administrative account would be locked into the vault. I have the ability to check it out at any point in time, but I don't operate that account on an ongoing basis. And then you have shared accounts that would sort of exist inside of that vault, where if I needed access to a shared account to deploy it, while I may not know the credential at any point in time, I can check it out, use it. And then when I check it back in, the credential is scrambled. Therefore, you have full accountability of I was the only one who knew the credential at that time, and I was the one, I had to be the one to make the change. So it's all about that accountability side and more importantly, the integrity to your users. But yes, 4,000 is high if it were system-wide access, but in compartmentalized for someone the size of Twitter, and also when you consider like the follow the sun approach for managing the platform, it probably isn't abnormal that there might be that many people who have very specialized access throughout the platform. It's whether or not it's persistent is the more concerning part. And that may be the case with Twitter. Maybe it was at 4,000 people with unfettered access to everything. It may be lots of compartmentalized access that could access various parts that were sensitive, but not each person had access to all of it. But it sounded like Mudge was also saying, but we don't really know who had access to what. Like there wasn't a way to track it. That almost seems like the bigger problem, right? And I don't know if that's just a symptom of a company that grew quickly over, you know, 10 plus years. But if the company doesn't log employee access and the former security lead of Twitter is like, we don't really know how bad it was because we don't have any evidence that it was bad, but it might have been bad. Now what do you do? Yeah, so let's distinguish two things. There's logging the access, logging that someone has done something. Most companies have that argument that they didn't. That's awful because if you had a threat team coming to try to figure out how something took place, they need logs. But then there's the governing who has access. Many companies, I say a lot of companies are very mature as it relates to governing who has access to what. But the reason why companies adopt governance solutions is specifically around this requirement, which is it also builds trust to your users. So what you're trying to do with governance is you're trying to say, we have an automated process that will grant people the access they need with inside the organization. We have a scheduled review process to ensure that people have the access they need. Or more importantly, we remove the access they no longer need. And then we also have a process to ensure that when someone leaves the organization that we deprovision all their access and their removed access. So if you think of an end and end, if an auditor would come in and say, how did Rod get access to this? And you can go back to a log and say Rod requested this access. It was approved by these three different people who have to go through the approval process. And that access was revoked on this date and time because he only requested it for a single day. Then you have full chain of that you have actually control over access versus someone just going into the system, adding a person to a group or to a role, and then they get all that access. Governance is it's demonstrating you have controls in place. So anybody who's listening to show who works in enterprise security are probably thinking things like socks or ISO 27001. All of those are about control frameworks to show that you've put the processes in place to govern and control access within your platforms. When I left Tech TV in 2004, there was a third party analytics tool that I was surprised to discover I still had access, even though I was no longer an employee there. And I quickly let somebody know like, hey, I was able to get into this and I shouldn't. I am somebody who did that. A lot of people wouldn't do that. CNET on the other hand had such lockdown security that when we wanted to demonstrate certain products that weren't allowed on the network, we had to get an IT person to come up, turn on access to a particular port that we were using in the studio, do the product shoot, then they would turn that access off again. And it was on a dirty net anyway. It wasn't even on the corporate network. So obviously things evolved over time is what I'm saying. How pervasive, how emblematic do you get a sense that this is? Unfortunately, it's more widespread than one would like to believe. However, like you gave the example with CNET, the larger the organization Fortune 500, Fortune 1000, they have, usually they have very good controls in place. And more importantly, they might be evolving those controls aggressively. It's when you start getting to the medium size or smaller size enterprises, they started off with automation, which is we have scripts that do this, but it's not the perfect process. And then as you sort of mature, you realize that we need to implement products. And there's a spend for organizations. It's not like you can get a credential vault for free that scrambles credentials. It's not like you can implement a governance product for free. So there's a big financial spend and it actually does involve automation and it touches all different tentacles within the organization. So it is more pervasive than we'd like to believe, but it tends to be within the medium to smaller size organizations who just don't have a mature practice in place. The verse is just malicious intent. Because I tell you that time and money, it looks like a lot the first time you confronted, especially as a smaller medium business, right? Yeah, absolutely. If you were on, let's say, a Microsoft platform would be a good example. Like Microsoft provides their own governance capabilities if you're like a Microsoft Azure customer. But it requires a certain, I think it's like a P2 or P3 license with Microsoft to use those capabilities. So you have to upgrade what you're paying with Microsoft, but you get that for the Microsoft platform. The problem when you start getting in the large organizations that they're very heterogeneous. So they say, well, yes, we use Zoom. We also use SAP. We also use Workday and some compartmentalizes. And we have all these homegrown applications that we use. How do we tie all that together? And that's where you start getting into the bigger identity governance solutions that try to help you with the automation and tying all those little pieces together. But I should say the key part is not just automation, but it's the reporting to prove to your auditors that you actually have the right controls in place. And prove to yourself that your controls are working too, right? I think it's important for that too. Yes. Oh, good. No, no, go ahead. I was going to say, but it's also, it's like, it's, if you think about Twitter verified users right now, early on it was, you had to be, I think it was a celebrity to get a verified status. If you, Sarah told you, well, I have a friend at Twitter and they can get you a verified status for 50 bucks. All of a sudden verified users goes away. So there's no integrity behind verified users if you can just pay to get verified. So like the controls that Twitter put in place for the process to become a verified user, it means that if I see that stamp, I know that I'm taught that that is Elon Musk who tweeted versus somebody else. So that integrity is critical to the platform. The same core principles apply when it comes to governance is everybody has a customer and your customers want you to demonstrate that you have the controls in place. So that if you're a third party vendor and you get breached, it doesn't move over to their organization or if they're trusting their data on your platform like Azure, Google, that their data is actually secured. And it doesn't mean that everybody in your IT infrastructure can look at all the documents we're saving on your platform. Yeah, yeah. Well, we have quickly some breaking news here. Scott Johnson who'll be on the show tomorrow is a grandpa again. His new granddaughter is named Phoebe. She was just bored during the recording of Daily Tech News show and he tweeted about it. So congrats to Taylor, Scott's daughter and her family and welcome Phoebe. Phoebe, we want you to stay hydrated. You know, humans need hydration. That's true. And Gatorade is a company that knows a little bit about that. They want you to stay hydrated as well. The company has designed a smart water bottle called the Smart GX to maintain your baseline hydration level and monitor recoveries after workouts, that sort of thing. Gatorade is not the only company to do this, but if you're interested in their product, LEDs along the bottle's cap, which comes off, can record daily hydration. You know, maybe you drink half a bottle, then you fill it back up, drink half again. You know, it's supposed to help you keep track so that you think about it less. Charging works over USB and a Gatorade spokesperson told Engadget the bottle is dishwasher safe. The cap isn't because, you know, you've got to have LEDs working, but most of it can be cleaned regularly. Gatorade also has an app called GX, which includes things like nutrition and training information. That's just on iOS, please for now. The company does say a way to track what you drink from something other than the smart bottle is also on the roadmap for launch. Yeah, because this is only going to track what's in the Gatorade bottle. And if people are like, I have a bottle that does this. Yeah, this isn't new. The technology itself isn't new. What's significant here is a brand like Gatorade getting into it and putting their name on it. That's going to expose it to a bunch more people. But yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to refill it and it keeps tracking. Yeah. Yeah, and you don't have to have it. Maybe you love Gatorade, but it doesn't have to be Gatorade that's inside the bottle either. Do you either one of you see yourself getting a bottle like this to track your, I'll say your fluid intake. I won't say Gatorade, but whether it be water. When I've been really militant about my water intake, which I have, you know, when I'm, I don't know, really being militant about what I'm intaking in general calories and water and stuff like that. I have found it to be kind of cumbersome. Like, I did have a glass of water like few hours ago. Crap. Okay, let me, you know, go back and reset my stats. This could be helpful for something like that, you know, or if I was training for a marathon and I was just like hydration was the utmost concern, maybe more than it would be if I was just leading my normal sedentary life. Yeah, I'd say for me, I don't see myself going down the pathway of this, but it's often because I sit with a cup next to my desk all day every day. And unfortunately, it's usually half full by the time I walk from my kitchen in my basement and walk upstairs and realize I drank half of it. So usually now I have a thermos and my glass so that I can keep refilling it throughout the day. But I don't, for me, it's not about measuring what I intake, it's just about making sure that I keep intaking and I don't see myself going this particular route. Yeah, there have been a few studies recently. McGill University had one that I'll throw in the show notes that the whole thing about drinking six to eight glasses of water is kind of a myth. Like, it's not a bad way if you're not getting enough water to sort of gauge whether you're getting enough water, but you get water from a lot of food. You don't really need to drink more than when you're thirsty unless there's something else going on. Unless you have a disease or it's particularly hot or you're exerting yourself like you're exercising, like the Gatorade audience maybe. So yeah, I use a pint glass of water. I just keep refilling it throughout the day. I'm not too concerned. And I don't work out at the level that I would need to really attract this hydration. But maybe you do, in which case. The timetable of my water intake is actually the most important slash annoying thing. Because if I drink too much right before bed, then I got to get up instead of staying in bed all night. So that has to be factored into, which can be annoying. Not annoying is having Rod Simmons on the show. Rod, such a pleasure to have you today. And we hope you come back soon. Let folks know where they can keep up with you in the meantime. Yeah, so if you're looking at me from just a social standpoint, I do a barbecue and tech podcast with Chris. It was actually launched last year when you guys kicked off like kind of the hey contributor show and see if it where it goes. So we launched barbecue and tech last year. But I also run another podcast called SMR podcast, which I think we record usually Wednesday or Thursday each week. And we just get together, the three of us, Rob, Chris and myself, and we just talk tech. So if you want to find me, there's probably the best place on Twitter. It's Rod Simmons. I'm not creative when it comes to that. And if you want to find me on Instagram, go figure it's actually just Rod Simmons. Well, we have a thing. We have another thank you. And that's to a brand new boss named Joe Mon. Joe Mon just started backing us on Patreon. You are our new boss and we thank you, Joe Mon. Producer of today's show, Joe Mon. Welcome. Yes, indeed. Speaking of patrons, stick around for our extended show, Good Day Internet, which we like to call GDI, which rolls right after the show wraps up. You can catch this show, though. DTNS is live Monday through Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern, on the 2200 UTC. If you'd like to join us live, but need a little bit more information, go to DailyTechNewShow.com. And that's where you'll find it. We'll be back tomorrow with Grandpa Scott Johnson joining us. Talk to you then.