 Okay. The appointed hour, the appointed hour, five o'clock PM has been reached and I welcome everybody to the meeting of the Amherst Design Review Board. My name is Catherine Porter as chair of the Amherst Design Review Board. I will call the meeting to order and take attendance as I call your name. Please indicate that you are here. Tom Long. Present. Okay. Catherine Davis. Erica Zecos. Here. Okay. And Catherine Porter. Okay. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 22, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. GIC 30 a section 18 and the governor's March 15, 2020 order imposing strict limitations on the number of people that may gather in any one place the public hearing of the design Amherst Design Review Board is being conducted via remote participation, no in person attendance of members or the public will be permitted. Also in attendance is Marine Pollock planner and staff liaison to the design review board, the design review board, and it's accompanying zoning regulations were created by the town meeting in October of 1983. The charge and purpose of the design review board under section 3.2 of the zoning bylaw is to preserve and enhance the town's cultural, economic and historical resources by providing for a detailed review of all changes in land use, the appearance of structures and the appearance of sites, which may affect these resources. The design review board examines this responsibility exercises this responsibility by providing design review and recommendations to private applicants and permit granting boards within specific overlays zoning districts in the town common, the design review overlay district and the town common design review overlay district design review was also provided for town departments and permit granting boards with respect to town projects anywhere in Amherst, which will result in substantial alteration to the form or appearance of a structure or site. All design review board meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff. Each meeting recording will be uploaded to the town of Amherst YouTube channel for public viewing. The procedure is as follows, the petitioner presents the application to the board during the meeting, after which the board will ask questions for clarification or additional information. Once the board has completed its questions, the board will deliberate. If the board feels it has enough information and time, it will decide upon recommendations for each respective application. Once the board has voted on its recommendations, the staff liaison will type up the recommendations for distribution to the applicant board, applicable land use board and building commissioner. And today we have several petitions, and I think we see them there on board. So, Marine do we have somebody here for DRB FY 2022 dash to zero. Lisa G Kent. Yes, so Lisa I'll make you a panelist one second. I just sent an email to Catherine Davis to see if she's able to join us she might be just running late or, or what have you so I'm going to stop the my screen and if Lisa if you could, I guess turn your screen on and, or share your screen and introduce yourself and show and explain what your proposal includes. I just asked you to mute yourself. I'm, yes, sorry a little bit of technical difficulty on my end. Okay. Now I'm going to do start the video part. Also having trouble with that. That's not good. Let me, let me see what else I can do. If it's possible at all to move to the other applicants was not to waste time. I can share my screen. And so I'm pulling up your application right now so if you are able to explain it so let me. Thank you. Meanwhile I'm trying to get my settings to work. Oh, beautiful. Thank you. Okay. All right. So, yeah, so I am I operate as a solo lawyer I've operated in. I live in Amherst about three blocks away from the property so I was thrilled to find this office so close to my, my, my home I live on chestnut street. I've operated as a lawyer in the state of Massachusetts since 2003, and I primarily had an office in Greenfield with my partner Diane Esser who passed away in 2018 I've kept the name Esser Kent family law and mediation. The property, most of you know it is houses in Mexico Lito restaurant and used to have the yoga center Amherst next door. My external door if you can maybe. Perfect. You were getting to the door. Yeah, I took additional photos so beautiful. Here we go. Here's where the door that you're proposing to further your signage and your entrance way. Correct. Correct. And, and there you have it, the top part of the sign. When I was thinking about putting up a sign. Basically, there is a kind of carved out little space in front right below that little Clara story window. It looked like it's for sign. So I worked with Sean Cleary at Amherst design copyworks to take my logo and logo type and make that sign. Then on the vinyl, which I don't know if you want to do it. You're doing this far better than I could I just tell you. I thought you had a closer one. That's good. I can zoom in. Oh, if you can zoom into the vinyl then you can see. Yeah, it basically states my contact information and what I, what I do. And it's been really delightful because I've gotten to clients who just happened to be moseying up to get a bite to eat. And, in fact, one is going to come in and find her prenup. So that's, that's about it. The, you know, that that's the signage that I propose to have. And I hope it, it needs mustard. Okay. Is it there already or is it, are you proposing it. Let me tell you if this is kind of an awkward situation. I was not as a lawyer should have known about the design review board requirements. So yes, the answer is yes it is there already. Is it removable. Absolutely. Do I want to remove it. Not so much. I think it's working. It's working well. So this is a question of me kind of retroactively asking for approval. So I did. I'm sorry. And I would say is the door and the, the same color as everything else on that side. It looks like a brown, is it a brown or black and is every setting keeping with the, all of the window frames and doors on that side. Correct. The, the doors. I have not changed any paint on the doors. Okay, they're all brown. The only, and the white that is outlining the, the window, that's there, that's an existing frame. I was just going to say that the Catherine Cavarroli of my landlord had signed off on the, I had sent her proof of this, and she liked it, and I thought that was all that was necessary, but not, not true. So, here I am. Okay. Would Erica or Tom like to make a comment. Tom did it right so I'll let him go first. First I just want to say Lisa you're not the first person to install something and then come. Don't feel bad about that. It happens every other meeting so don't worry about it. And I'm fine with that I mean super simple and clean and understated and I have no issues with it at all. No recommendations. Thank you. Erica. Thanks. Thanks for your walking us through it. I agree with Tom. I just have one point of clarification and that is in the text of your application, you wrote that the three, their quotes blurbs below your email address on the door vinyl will be removed to provide a less cluttered appearance and while I don't have anything to critique about what you've shown us here I do think that it would provide a less cluttered appearance and think it's a good idea. Well, when I have the proof. When I was going back and forth with the company to do the proof, I, they sent me this and I said, Oh, I don't really need those three little sentences. Because also they're kind of restrictive, I might not be representing people and divorces in two years. They were going to order a new vinyl. And they were going to do that for me so basically what would happen would be is, yeah, we would just have it without those three sentences. I go back and forth on it frankly because sometimes I, but you know, whatever you say, I will, I will do because I could go both ways at this point. That's interesting. So Erica, what would you, would you feel that that might reduce the clutter and leave the email there. I think it personally feel that it's nicely balanced and it'll be fine either way. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay, any other comments from Tom or Erica. I think that's fine. My one thought is I actually haven't been to your website, but you know, you, you might want to consider replacing those three blurbs with a link to your website, or at least, you know, I know it's in your email above but not everybody's smart enough to figure that out. They will in like five years or so but as of now, you know, it might be worthwhile to put your email there where you state this and so if you do change that I'm not doing divorce or I'm doing something else. Your website will keep people up to date so at least people can find out more about you. No, you're absolutely right. That was actually one of my notes. And I think, I think I will go ahead and do that and maybe just take out the three sentences and put in the URL to the website. All right. Okay, so do I hear a motion that we approve. Lisa's new signature door. I hear a move. So move and Erica. Okay. All in favor. Raise your hands or say I will that'll be the easiest Lisa you'll ever case you'll ever have to file. We're a pushover. Yeah. So I really appreciate it. Thank you. It looks very nice. Yeah, we wish you well. Okay. All right. Okay. So much. Okay. So the next item on the agenda is for the bank. I need to pull up the agenda. Where's, where's the agenda? The next item is image one industries, LLC to review the proposed signage for M and T bank. Located at 25 East pleasant street. And I think I made one of the applicants panelists, Joe. If you could unmute yourself. If there are any other representatives of the project, if you could raise your hands and I can make you a panelist. I know a few of them had emailed me saying they would be in attendance tonight. Yes, this is Joe knots. And I have darling fence to marker on a phone here. Okay. I'll pull her up as a panelist and if you can share your screen and you both can introduce yourselves and, you know, show and explain what you're proposing. Okay. One second, please. Let me see if I'm able to pull this off. I'm sorry, but I don't see an option where I could share my screen and just says mute and then start video. Participants. Here we go. Okay. Can you see my screen. Here we go. It's coming up. There you go. Okay, perfect. So my name is Joe knots and I'm a project manager with image one industries. We are the signage vendor representing our client M&T bank. They kind of give you a little back history here M&T Bank recently acquired people's United Bank. And we're currently in a rebranding process of switching out the people's United Bank signage with M&T Bank signage. So that's what I will be presenting in our package here. This page here is just an overview of the signage on the property. On this page, it shows the existing people's United Bank on the storefront facing the street and our proposed signage. The existing signage currently is face lit illuminated channel letters, and we are proposing to replace them with the M&T Bank face lit channel letters. And our square footage of the signage is smaller than the people's United Bank existing signage. On the next page here we're showing a temporary cover because we're currently in the process of removing the signage. So we propose to remove the people's United Bank signage and install the M&T Bank signage. The unveiling of M&T officially presenting themselves to the community is actually going to take place on Labor Day weekend. So within the next once everything is approved by you guys and we've removed the people's United Bank signage. We're going to install the M&T Bank signage and then install the temporary banner and then during Labor Day weekend remove this banner. It is the same situation for the signage on the right elevation of the building. We will remove the existing face lit people's United Bank channel letters, install M&T Bank channel letters, install a temporary banner until unveiling weekend. And again this proposed signage is less square footage than the people's United Bank signage and the same situation with the third elevation on the left side of the building. Remove people's United Bank and install M&T Bank and then install a temporary banner until unveiling weekend. The rest of the signs in this package are just regulatory signs. We're essentially replacing like for life here as well. Removing the people's United Bank, full mounted regulatory signs in the parking lot, replacing it with the M&T Bank standard, updated standard. And for these signs as well, essentially that is it. Do you have any signage for the doors or the windows? That is a great question. Let me check back in my notes here. I don't see they are proposing M&T is proposing any window signage. However, we most likely will propose a door vinyl. I will have to check back in my notes here. Because usually when you're entering the bank, it just lists M&T Bank. It lists their branches hours and then it would say something in regards to welcome and thank you welcoming clients into the branch. Right. But nothing on the windows. Okay. Like graphics or anything, it would just be on the main entrance door. Did you have any more to discuss or shall we chime in? Not sure where we are. Yep, essentially that is it. Okay. All right. Okay, let's hear from the design review board. Erica, any comments? Yeah, I mean, thank you. Comprehensive overview. Oh, I'd love to see those pictures again. I have two things that pop up for me right away. One of them is a little more ambiguous design question and I'll get to that second. The first one is, when you replace the people's United Bank signage, which is considerably larger. Will there be punctures in the metal panel that need to be repaired? Is there cleaning to be done when you take that down? And can we be assured that the smaller signage is going to not reveal past electrical conduit or good questions? Yes, absolutely. That is in our scope that once the signage is removed to patch and repair the wall to like new condition. And then the second more ambiguous question is actually regarding this elevation and that is that you've done a nice job of centering the M&T Bank signage on the total, like on the large facade here. But I'm wondering if it should actually be centered over the glazing. Instead, and I don't know if anybody else has an opinion on that, but it just feels, it almost feels lopsided because the black of the glass is so dominant here. Oh, so what would you think, move it? You're thinking move it one way or the other? Yeah, I'm just wondering if moving it to the left so that it's centered over the glass makes sense. Oh, yeah. Okay. Tom. Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm looking at the Google Street View images because I was trying to find out where the front door actually is. It's to the left of that, by the way. I think I'm trying to figure out that when you actually zoom out, whether or not it does make sense when you see because that that upper clear story or white or light tile continues past that brick element also so it's even longer so it even feels asymmetrical. Anyway, my sense is that it's worth looking at. I don't know which one's going to be right or wrong because I haven't seen it but I do think that it might make sense to center it over the glass, especially when you see the full facade and the glass actually carries all the way to the outside edge on the left. So, anyway, it's definitely worth exploring and I think in the end you'll find that it'll probably feel right to center or to move it left. Yeah, I think the intent here was just to center it on the whole facade versus transferring it over the windows. Yeah. Right but what's actually happening here I'm going to annotate is that this actually continues out here. So like centering this over this will actually center it in the whole facade, which you can actually see in these images anyway it's just a thought again like I don't know if it's going to feel right or not but when I look at the street view and see the full facade. It feels like it's even right now people's united feels a little bit over to the right anyway, it's just something to think about. But I agree with that and I think that I mean it'd be nice to see the graphics for the door, but the door is actually kind of hidden and so I can't imagine you putting anything on the door out find a fence. This is kind of around a corner so, you know, I mean it'd be nice to see it and have it submitted but I mean I would approve it based on what I would suspect you'd put on that front door anyway. There's nothing on it right now, or maybe there is this is really tiny. Okay, yeah. I, I would agree I like the idea of something significant under the sign I don't know how many blocks over you'd have to do that but it's worth a discussion, there you go. You know, you know, I think it continues over to the left. You know, that's right. I think it's a, I actually like the logo better than the one that you're replacing so sort of go ahead with a problem with that. Okay any other thoughts of America or Tom. And I'm sorry I do have a photo if I'm able to share my screen with the door vinyl looks like able to see my screen. No, we see it now Jim. Okay, so this is what it will look like entering as welcome says M&T Bank at the top. There is a holiday plaque. Say Thanksgiving Christmas will just put an insert in there. And then below the welcome has their lobby hours of an FBI decal and non smoking decal. So that's what it looks like exiting the branch. It's somewhat reverse it says thank you as you're exiting. Could you email that to me if I don't know if that was included in the packet just so we have that on file. Yes, absolutely. And for reference there's two doors then right because there's that looks like it's a rear door. I guess my assumption is that the door facing the front of the building will look the same. Yes, you're correct. Okay. So be shown on both doors. Which I can easily resummit this to you. It's great I have no other comments but thank you. Now, I'm sorry going back to the, the placement of the M&T bank letter so would you like us to slightly move that to the left so it's centered more or is it okay as shown, and then I could get that updated as well and resummit it. Well I think the suggestion was it maybe move it a little to the left so it would be over the door. That's really up to you. But I, my sense is that the suggestion is that you consider this based on what we see as perhaps a better placement of the logo was that does that jive Erica and Tom with what we're hearing. What I was hoping to say was, test out whether centering the M&T bank logo, not over the door, but over the expanse of pleasing that we see in this image. Okay, all right. I'm going to edit, annotate. Yeah, over that stretch. Okay. The left but not much. Yeah, like two blocks or something that. Okay. No problem at all. Okay, very good. Okay, so marine do you have that. Yeah, and so if you could email us the revised sign plan for this, for this particular one that would be helpful as well. All right, do I hear a motion that we have approved the petition with the suggestion that consideration be me, be made to move the sign over one or two, those titles, I guess. So. Right. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. All in favor. I. All right. All right. Good luck. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you to everyone. Thanks Joe. Nate Malloy from the playing department who will be. Whoops. I might have made the wrong person the panelists. I don't know. Oh, no, I didn't make him. Okay. So we will be showing you the updated sign design and layout and kiosk for the dog park. Okay. Hi, everyone. Hello, nature. Thanks for having me. I'm Nate Malloy. I'm a planner with the town. Hi, everyone else who might be watching the, I'll share my screen in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. So the dog park is mostly constructed now. There'll be a soft opening later this month. And I'll be showing you signs and a kiosk that we'd like to put in the entry Plaza area. Okay. And then, you know, the kiosk is would match the one that's at graph park. And the signs are trying to resemble conservation signs. The product did go to the planning board. A new site plan review to the planning board the other week and they recommended. That the signs have more consistency with the wayfinding signs. In terms of font. In terms of the size of the signs. So I guess I'll just share my screen and some style or thematic elements. And then there are some questions about the size of the sign or signs just because some of them were proposed to be pretty big. So I guess I'll just share my screen. What was originally in the packet. And. I'll annotate a little bit since Tom, you know, is jumping in on that. I think it's actually a great use of. So, you know, this, uh, this is old Belcher town road and there's 17 parking spaces on the front of the dog park. And then there's a five foot chain link fence that goes around the park. And so there's a little entry Plaza outside the fence. And then there's, you know, a chain link fence here. And the idea is to have a kiosk in this location. And then. There's a little vestibule where you can enter and then close the gate behind you and then go either into the small dog area or the big dog area. So, you know, there's a main entry gate and then there's one to each side. And then the idea is to have a sign here, a sign on this side. And then maybe a sign on the fence. So all these three signs would be on the fence itself. There's a dog park task force. So volunteer citizens who have been working with the town staff to develop the signs and also on the park and fundraise and also be involved with the maintenance of it. And so, you know, there's, so three signs here, a kiosk, and then we're proposing possibly an offsite sign, a freestanding sign that would look similar to the welcome sign that would be here on the site. Originally the idea was to have it somewhere here as you're working. So, you know, the planning board thought that, you know, once you come down old Belsertown road, you kind of already know you're headed to the dog park unless you're just stumbling upon it for the first time. So the recommendation was maybe to have a sign on route nine, which would be over off, off the diagram off the plan here. So, that's something to consider. We haven't considered it yet as staff just because it's a little more involved to do that. So, you know, I will say that the, you know, benches are in the shade structures are in. So the benches are the same as that graph and that Kendrick park. So their new metal style, the shade structures. You know, are also installed. I think they have like, you know, the manufacturer had, I forget what colors they are like tan and red, tan post maybe red shade sale. So, you know, I think the dog park task force recommended those colors and the, you know, the shale, the shade sales and kind of like the, the fabric and style mimic what we have at graph and Mill River and other parks. So I think it's, that's captured in my picture. So here's what is, so. And just see if I can. Seems a little large. So you walk in, there's one that one made intricate. There's proposed to have dog park rules on one side and then there's dog park etiquette signs on the other. And so here's, here's the, the rule sign. And so it's proposed to be four feet by four feet. So, you know, I think we might want some recommendations on the size of it. You know, the, the language is. I don't want to say it's set in stone, but you know, this is something they like to have this as the rules. And so unless there's some, some reason to change the language grammatically. There's an email, the Amherst dog park at gmail.com. And I've asked our IT staff if we could have a, an Amherst MA dot gov, like a town email that would be rerouted. And they said that due to spam and some other reasons that we actually don't. We don't do that with emails anymore. So we still can do like a web redirect with a web link, but not with an email. You know, there's some question about why is it a gmail account and not a town account. And really it's going to the dog park task force. I mean, we could have that email somehow get forwarded to the town, but you know, so that that was one thing about that. So here's one sign. I'll just go scroll down to the etiquette sign, which is slightly different. You know, again, four feet by four feet, you know, the, yeah. And then the welcome sign, I find these were scanned at scale, right? So that's funny. The, I don't realize the PDF was, was a, was this way. So anyways, then there's a welcome sign, which they're considering temporary, but it is something that we'd want to have on the fence and maybe it would mimic or, you know, be mimicked in the freestanding sign. So, you know, welcome to the dog park maintained by friends of Amherst Dog Park. And the kiosk is the specs for the kiosk and really here's some images of the kiosk from broth park. So it's, it's the same thing. It's a, there's really eight display areas that are roughly two feet and, you know, the kiosk itself, I'm not sure what it, you know, it, I haven't got the actual dimensions, the roof overhang, but yeah, I wasn't saying maybe almost six feet by six feet. And so on this kiosk, the dog park task force and the town would like to have, you know, donors, maybe a locust map, some other information, you know, this park was funded by, by the stint and foundation and other grants and then also private contributions. And then there's other display areas. See what else. So here's just a detail of what this looks like. And so, you know, there's been some discussion about whether it be a display case or what, you know, really it's just a, you know, vertical board, but things have been stapled on there. And so we haven't determined yet. I don't think, you know, if there would be a plexiglass cover or what, you know, what kind of, if there is any, any other finishing to that. I did take some pictures today. So I think I'll start a new share. And we can just walk through what's there. So here's the dog park, you know, from the road. And so right now there's handicapped spaces with two, you know, handicapped signs. There's this Community Preservation Act banner. And so this is actually, you know, two feet by 10 feet, just to give you a sense. And this one is, you know, 18 by 32 or something. So here's the temporary sign. You know, here it is as you're approaching, you know, in the parking space, just again, just, you know, the shade sales are in the background. So it's a, you know, they somewhat kind of disappear. So there's a dog way station with a sign that has just information. Let's see, I just wanted to get a little closer. So here's what the, we have temporary signs that are going up on the fence. So the rules and etiquette would be on either side of, here's the entry gate. So at this scale, you know, they're roughly 17 inches, the red 17 by 17. You know, the whites a little bigger, but you know, the top is like one inch lettering, maybe like inch and a quarter lettering. And this is taking from about six feet away. And so, you know, if it weren't, you know, so this is right, like say, you can say almost two feet by two feet. Here's an image of something that's four feet by four feet, you know, with the all the, all the white. And so compared to this, you know, 12 by 18 sign, here's a four foot sign. So, yeah, I just, you know, so maybe we have a little bit of help there. Yeah, so this actually is 18 by 23, right? So this red area, which, you know, when you're six feet, you know, the picture, it is hard to capture in an image, but, you know, if you're, you know, this is taken from about six feet away, seven feet away, and you can read it. You know, I think this is, like I said, maybe an inch and a quarter lettering here. And then, you know, I guess that's probably it, you know, I was just, you know, I was just taking different images, putting up the welcome sign and then an etiquette sign that's smaller. You know, what does it look like when you're actually standing there. And so I'll just go back up one. Yeah, so here, if you walk in the kiosk, the kiosk will be here. As you, you know, arrive, then the idea is to have, you know, one sign on the fence, two signs on the fence straddling the entry gate, you know, rules and regulations and etiquette, and then this welcome sign would be moved over to where the fence comes out. So it would be off the screen. So it might, it could be where the preservation act sign is, but it could be more over on the right hand side. You know, and originally they wanted this welcome sign or whatever you want to call it, a dog park sign to be a little bit bigger, you know, like a banner. So, you know, proportionately if it was two feet, maybe it'd be like six feet. You know, I don't know, you know, as opposed to two by 10. And I think that's kind of the presentation. So I think that Kestrel trust in the town. I've been doing some work in conservation land. And so, you know, like the, the chamfered corners, the rounded corners and everything. I was going to go back to the, I'll cancel this for a minute. You know, the chamfered corners and some of the font is what's been used on conservation signs. I was trying to make a mock up of our way finding signs, but we're limited to Microsoft software. And the font that was chosen for some of the signs is not supported. And their illustrator files as well. So I've been talking to staff about having, you know, having whether it's someone we've worked with before, come up with a sign template that we could use to almost plug and play when we have something like this. So we're not, you know, reinventing every time. But I will, you know, welcome any comments. So I'll just, you know, poll, you know, something like this stuff just to, I think this is about the third iteration we've seen at that kiosk. It's definitely changed over the last, I don't know, two or three years, whenever the first one came up. Yeah, so the first idea was to have like a hex. Like a hexagon shape or roof maybe and yeah, and have it be very complicated. Yes, that's right. And tile a special. Grab surface just for the chaos, but that's okay. Yeah. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have any problem with, with personally with the big signs. I'm just not sure in total how many signs are going to be there. Like the dog park could look a little busy or distracting. That's one thought and my other thought probably no one's going to hear this, but that kiosk seems superfluous. You know, like, why do you need it? You don't even know what you're going to put on it and how you're going to stick things on it. You could save your town some money and you've got the signs. That's what people want to know. What the rules are and come in, have a dog, bring your dog in and go home. The kiosk to me is just, I don't know. That's up to you, but I'm not going to go down, but that's my, that's my opinion. We have others. We have Erica and we have Tom, Tom has your hand up. I mean, I see, I saw this from the planning board and I was on site with Nate, so we were kind of looking at this together. I mean, I truly believe that the 48 inch sign is really massive. And I don't know if it, if it's completely necessary to have something that that it's that large. My sense is that it's something you're going to read from close up. You're going to read from six or eight feet away. You're going to walk up to it. It's right next to the entry. You're literally going to be inches away from it. We don't, it's not like a display sign. It's not an advertisement. It's information that people will read up close. And if they need to smash their face up against it or put on their glasses, I think that's okay. I think Nate, your, your mock-up of the big white 48 inch panel is what also gives me pause. It's just so massive and they're going to be both of the, you know, one on each side. What I, what I was thinking is that when I looked at the fence, right, it has a horizontal break. That's a five foot fence. So that's two and a half feet. That seems like 30 inches. It seems ample. So if you could box that into two, 30, 30 inch. You know, signs. I also think there's a lot of extra space on this sign that might not need to be there, but I definitely agree that we need a standard and that this needs to match the, the signage that we find at the other parks. Even if it's not signage is, you know, it's not, you know, it's not a standard. It's not a standard. It's produced by, you know, a small local town group. I still think that if it's in the public domain, it needs to match that standard. So however we need to make that happen. Let me know. I can pitch in if need be, but I'd much rather see it be. In the same type face and with the same header graphic and with the same header. So I think we need to, you know, just to, you know, for consistency, because the minute we show an example of something going off script, it's going to give everybody a precedent. Well, you know, at the dog park, they did this and then all of a sudden we're like, why did we have a standard in the first place? So I think we just make it mandatory. And stick with it, whatever we have to do to get there. So that's the key. The key ask. I mean, I'd be interested to find out how it's actually being used at the other locations and whether like, it seems useful. If it does cool, then I think we should keep doing it. But if it's just sits there and nobody uses it or there's no information on it, then. That seems like a great place for rules and regulations as opposed to stuff to get tacked up on the fence. So anyway, those are my, those are my thoughts, but I mean, I would much rather see it again before we approve anything. So I want to see it formatted and I want to see it scaled to the right. To a more appropriate size. Okay, could I jump in and ask you Nate, is that the color? It's going to be, it looks like maroon and white. Is that what it is? Yeah, so I think. I was going to try to pull up our way finding sign, you know, it was kind of maroon and there's white and then kind of like a cream color. So we do have the, you know, color codes. So, you know, it, yeah. And so it would match that. So if it's, you know, whatever the, you know, whatever, you know, however we would. It may not be, I don't know how it's what it looks like on your screen, but yeah, it would be the same color red as like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not calling the way fine finding signs of signs. We approved a couple of years ago that. One was going to be down at the intersection of university and Amity street. Is that what you're talking about way finding? Are you talking about the little flag signs that. We're going to have up at the center of town. So that's all part of it. Yeah. I mean, I guess you could call it brown or I don't want to say rust. Okay. Well, whatever. I mean, it should be some clarity around what the colors are. If you, if you're saying that it's the matching, the way faring signs. That color is not at all what we. Had for the way. If I'm correct in saying what is a way bearing sign? Is that the, those are the signs that are going to be down by the Emily Dickinson house. And the corner of Amity and university. Is that what you're talking about? Yes. Okay. Well, as I recall, if the board can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the decision was. Sort of a brown nation crane. Am I. Yeah, I'm getting, I'm going to pull up the most recent. Way finding. It's just taking a minute. We've had about three versions. Yeah. That's also gone through a few different iterations. And I concur with. There should be. Consistency in the colors. Yes. And then how. Headers are used. And I think one thing that makes this a little bit different is that. There is a body of text that you want people to read. And so the, the readability of that might introduce. Might introduce a new font because I don't know how the other fonts are going to work with phrases stacked up here. But. I also concur with Tom that a smaller. I would be good. I tend to agree that. Maybe that. Sign. Yeah. I tend to agree that. Maybe that. Sign. Yeah. How many signs are going to be a strong around the place. Sorry. Yeah, I do think that hanging the sign. Towards the top of the fence so that it's a little bit closer to eye level would be useful rather than trying to center it on the fence once you have it, if it is. So. I found a couple of typos. Missing Oxford commas that I can point out here. If anybody wants to get super picky. And then. You know, just looking at the, the headings, you know, you've got town of Amherst dog park rules. And then right next to it, you have another one that says Amherst dog park etiquette. And I think you can just strike Amherst from that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. If you have those comments, you know, the missing commas or other things to send it to a Marine or myself, I do think we, we do want to have that corrected. So this is just a mock up. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll, I'll, I'll share actually what. For wayfinding. Sorry, I'm just going to jump around. So we had, you know, we had Seth Gregory came up with a system. And this is where like the downtown signs would go. It's not going to have the spinial. That's the idea is the idea is to have, you know, these would be directional signs. And I'm just going to scroll quickly. So this color. You know, the color where we'd want to match is what would be the rite. Yeah, the green of the, of the other side of the sign. But then, you know, there are different directions. So these are on the, on the signs. And then so what we came up with, sorry, this is a long presentation. Close your eyes. So what we do have as a destination sign. You know that we're proposing to have, you know, where we have, you know, a large freestanding sign, like at Kendrick Park, you know, which is kind of a larger kind of welcome sign. And it would match. Um, you know, so, you know, what I was hoping to do is have, you know, take, you know, this, whether or not we use this, uh, the banner here, but, you know, take the, this kind of, um, size of proportion and even like this background logo and use that and replicate it with the dog park signs and same, but the same, uh, you know, uh, font and everything, but it's just not easily done. Yeah. Okay. And so is that something, I mean, is that something you'd want to see in terms of consistency, right? So this kind of same like, you know, you're saying like the type base and color and design. Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. I mean, I think that, that level of consistency is going to be really important. Right. Yeah. And the, um, the use of the logo here I think is appropriate as a, as a screen in the background that might make reading text a little challenging. And so if you pulled it off into the maroon space, the white space, um, where available, I think that would be fine, but I would resist having the overlap. Okay. Okay. And it does, it sounds like you're talking about three signs of welcome, the etiquette and the rules. Right. I think is appropriate. And, you know, it's a great question you asked what I was asked, you know, what's, how, how are the kiosks being used. And right now the one at Gropp only have that COVID sign and the rest of the, you know, there's essentially eight display areas, eight display faces that were empty, you know, they have, you know, things on there that were taken down, but, um, you know, if, you know, this proportion could fit on one of those panels, you know, could you have the rules and regulations and etiquette on the kiosk and not the fence? Um, you know, is that too much clutter? I mean, I'd be good. I'd like to have a recommendation on that. I do think, you know, we could probably, um, fill, you know, four of those faces on the kiosk. But I mean, to have, you know, eight panels of information seems like a lot. Um, you know, I think originally the key, you can remind, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I thought that the kiosk was originally designed so that it would have all of that stuff. The rules and the other sign, uh, would be on the kiosk because there was no discussion when we looked at this a couple of years ago about signs on fence. Now, can you recall? Yeah. No, I think you might be right. I think, I think the dog park task force felt that maybe people wouldn't, you know, they would enter the site and they wouldn't necessarily look at the kiosk for rules and regulations. So that's why they're hoping it would, you know, be on either side of the main entry gate. So it's just, you know, it's like a fail safe. My sense is if they're at scale and they look like the signs that you just showed and they're mounted properly on that fence, like I have no problem with them being there, I actually really truly feel that there's, that the kiosk is going to be redundant. You know, I think, I think that it's a lot of surface area and maybe like you'll get like a lost dog or like, you know, a dog walker person that's going to put that little note up like that kind of stuff I can imagine happening at a dog park, probably more than a golf park, but I still don't imagine, you know, eight surfaces being used, even if they're all corkboard for public use. So it's totally true. And four of those surfaces are around the back, which means that no one's going there. You'll lose your audience if that's where you expect people to be reading the rules. So somebody's going to have to monitor what we talked about that before, who's going to take care of the kiosk, who's going to be sure that the notices are current and how you're going to get it up there. Maybe you should go without the kiosk, and then if you, then after a few months, you say, boy, we really need a kiosk, you can put, plop that thing in there, because it doesn't look like it's a high tech structure. Yeah, I mean, there'll be a lot of babysitting ads on the back of the kiosk, you know. Yeah, right. Yeah, you know, yeah. He's joking. I'm just joking. No, I kind of agree though, when I went on to Graff, I was walking around and looked like people had put up personal posters that the town would take down. So it is something that has to be monitored because there is a lot of surface area. Yeah. Nate, when is this being discussed with the planning board next? You know, so they approved the site plan, you know, so they, you know, the park, the layout changed a little bit from when it was approved two years ago, just due to the clay cap over the, you know, it's an old landfill was closer to the surface and extended closer to the road than thought. So the planning board approved the project, the site plan, but they have a condition that the signs be reviewed by the design review board and that they have to be reviewed and approved by the planning board before installation. So, you know, they've approved the project, but they want the signs and kiosks to be, you know, have recommendations from the design review board and then come back again. So, you know, if the design review board, if you feel like you'd like to see it again, that's something I can work with staff on, you know, getting a better mock up, you know, actual size of signs and then we can, you know, I think July 27th is the soft opening. So those signs I had up there today, you know, those like 17 by 17 squares, they might be up there temporarily just, you know, on like zip tie to the fence. And then we'd work on getting some permanent signs. Okay. So what's the feeling of the design review board that we would like to take another look at it? Do we want to mention the fact we're not convinced that the kiosk really contributes much to the dog park? How specific do you think we can be or should be? It seems like the agreement is we like the signs, but we feel they should be smaller. Is that one point that we are all in agreement in on? Hello, how do you agree? Yes, I agree the signs should be smaller. I like Tom's suggestion of trying the 30 inch line. And I know this is an appropriate metaphor here, but this is kind of the tail that's wagging the dog in the sense that it's reminding us that having a consistent package of design guidelines for signage would be a great idea. And I don't, I'd like to, you know, review this with that in mind as well. And we're so close, you know, with the really comprehensive wayfinding package, it does me well for these signs. But, you know, for the town to be able to use it or to budget in consultants for moments like this, I think would be appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, man, that could be a recommendation too. I think, you know, like Maureen and I talked about like do we, you know, even if I, you know, was to get, you know, the town was able to have a license for illustrator. Am I the one that is going to go in and every time we need a sign, you know, change it? Or do we have, you know, some reserve to hire, say, Seth again, or, you know, some other, some other one to take a file. I do like the idea of having a sign package. We don't have, you know, it's funny, we have the wayfinding signs, we have these directional signs, and maybe now this destination sign, but we've never, you know, kind of come up with what are the suite of signs we'd need, say at conservation areas or recreation areas and have a template that incorporates this wayfinding style. So I think that's where, you know, you see what we, you know, what we're able to do in Microsoft Publisher or something. If it's not a conflict of interest, there's a branding agency that I know, myself, that could probably help you out with a tiny stipend to make sure everything's consistent. So feel free to give me a holler. Again, I don't know if we can have my own graphics approved by the planning board, but we'll see. So is it safe to say that we want to sort of continue this until updated sign plans and layouts are provided and to have better clarity of where they'll be located? Yeah. Yes, yes, let's do that. And then also maybe, I mean, the recommendation that perhaps the kiosk could be installed at a later date, so we could see how functions, I'm not sure if it's been ordered yet, but oh, it's already been ordered. Well, is that, you know, it seems like that's maybe something to explore. I think it's something to explore, really. I mean, the handful of thousands of dollars that you're spending on this kiosk could be spent on a design consultant. Yeah. If that was an option. If it's already, I mean, if it's already been ordered, obviously, you know, it's just a matter of making sure that it's utilized well. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I know once we realize that you could put signs on the fence or if you don't, then maybe they go on the front of the kiosk. I guess it's kind of that decision. Yeah, smaller signs on the fence to be completely right. Nate, one thing I would consider, and this would be something I would talk with the committee about is that there are actually two layers of entry here. And so it might make sense to get them to make them less visible if they wanted them larger, to put them on that inside frame. So when you walk through the first gate before you actually go into the park on the left or right, there's a big panel there that's probably eight feet that you can put those two signs on. So you're still not in the park, but that way you don't see it. It's not something that's on the front of the, let's call it the facade of the park. So that might be something to consider as well. If they're, you know, I'd support a larger sign there, I think, than I would on the front fence. So it's interesting. Maybe that was their thought all along. And maybe it's just when that was described to me, it was lost in translation. I think that's a really nice idea. Could you pull up a photo, the photos that you took today? I'm having trouble visualizing what Tom's talking about. Yeah, maybe they just do, I'll do the, I'll go to the PDF first. So I think what, this is that, is this what I want? I guess so. There's a... Use the greeting plan, Nate, that's the next one. I was going to zoom in here. So when you, when you, the, where the signs are now that I showed, you know, there's this original, there's this main fence, which is actually now straight across. I guess that's the difference. It's now straight across. But then there's this vestibule that you enter. And there's a gate to this side and a gate to this side. So Tom was saying the back of this is, you know, you see it when you walk right in. And it's not necessarily at the, you know, at the, you know, right at the street level. So it's, you'd still see it. You'd see it before you enter the park physically. But it's behind that initial gate. Right. So I think this is, I guess there's still a little, it goes back a little bit, but so yeah, behind this gate, this is the, you know, here's the fence going into the background, then there's just a whole other second fence here. Yeah. So you can see the bottom of the front fence is here, but then there's this other fence back here in the background. Yeah. And again, you'll still see it, but it's less like on the facade. I don't know. It's just a thought, but yeah, it's a great question to bring to the dog park committee. Yeah. Yeah. The one thing as a dog owner, I would be curious to see what the committee would say is that that's where that's like the lobby, if you will. So you, you go through the first gate with the dog and then there, and then that's the vestibule and then they wait to go inside. And sometimes there could be multiple dogs in that zone. So it could be like a little chaotic. What? Yeah. I'm just saying it's like someone that you're like interacting with like multiple dogs. All of a sudden you're like, I can't pay, like it's hard to multitask of having like loose dogs and stuff. So maybe that's just me. No, I hear you. Or if you have, yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Actually, someone on the playing board asked, because you know, one's a 30 pound small dog and bigger. And they said, well, what happens if you have two dogs that are, you know, they are in each different, you know, way category. Yeah. I said, well, geez, they're supposed to be under voice control. So you should be able to control one from the other side. But no, I'm assuming you can make it work in one side or the other. But it was an interesting question about what you have if you have multiple dogs. Okay. So where are we? We're going to, you're going to sort of play around a little bit with that Nate, and then you're going to come back to us. Is that, is that what? Yeah, yeah, I think I'd like to, Dave Zomax on vacation for a week. I'd like to, you know, meet with him and then with the dog carp task force and talk about, you know, can we have, you know, like you said, Erica, that there's different headers for every sign, right? I mean, every sign I showed you has a different kind of layout. And so can we just get some consistency to, you know, whether it's the same font or the same, you know, color font, other things from the way finding and just have it be pretty clear. You know, for this welcoming, the welcome sign had gray, had a, you know, the, there was some, you know, some of the font was a gray color and that's not, you know, in any of the other signs that we're using. So all of a sudden it's like, oh, we're introducing a new color and a new typeface. And it's like, oh, I'm not sure why that is. But yeah. So yeah, I'd like to be able to figure out how we can come up with some mock signs, you know, a little more consistent. And then I'll type up the notes from this meeting. And so, you know, some of the notes include, you know, think about being consistent with the way finding signs in relation to the font, the color, the design and the layout. Think about readability from, from, you know, viewing for the, I guess, for the pedestrian. Think about the proximity from the sign where people are standing to read it. And then consider smaller signs than what's proposed. Review any typos and extra or extra commas, etc. Think about the headings. Think about removing it. There might be an extra amourst on some of those signs. Just think about those sorts of things and then think about whether a kiosk is needed here or maybe look around at other dog parks to see if they have kiosks and if they're used or not. And then to come back with updated sign designs and layouts and showing the locations. Okay. That was good. That's it. All right. Okay, Nate. Thanks for coming and we look forward to getting together again. Yeah, I hope we can get a little closer every time. So we're not. Yeah, I'd like to have this, you know, at least the sign design done, you know, this summer and maybe they can get installed this fall, you know, this season. So yeah. And maybe you can find it if the kiosk has already been ordered. Maybe you can find another park to stick it in. Yeah, I do think there's been some good questions and comments. So I mean, I think, you know, going back to them and just asking like, you know, is it, is the kiosk redundant? Could we put some signs on the kiosk? You know, how important is it that they're, you know, locations of where they are? And so, yeah, sure, there could be a good discussion about all that. I don't mean to read it to death, but okay. All right. And that's it on the agenda. Let's see if there's any members of the public. There are not everyone. Okay, thank you. And are there any minutes? No, unfortunately, no. So what I am doing, I am typing up these memos and I send them off and I don't, frankly, I have very limited time that I can devote to this, but I have these notes and from this and for the other applications and and I am forwarding them along to actually through Open Gov. So they're documented there, which is a new permanent software. The one thing I forgot to add to this agenda is is is how they say re organ is electing officials for the board. So like a chair and vice chair. So at the next meeting, we'll add that to the agenda. We're supposed to do that every fiscal year. I think I forgot it last year as well. So sorry. But we'll think of it this coming year. Okay. And then just a couple other notes about hopefully you've checked out the parklets located in downtown. There's one in front of fresh side restaurant and one in front of Amherst coffee and the town manager approved those locations and the design as a temporary basis. And so they're going to perhaps be removed at the end of the season. And so since it's temporary, the town manager didn't feel like it needed to go through the design review board. But if it does become a permanent thing or other restaurants, hopefully want to do it as well, you know, we can talk about that with the town manager to see if if a DRB review is needed. But hopefully you like them. I certainly do. Yeah. Cool. And and then there are I guess on Spring Street, the that that is a mixed use building that's being built right now. Supposedly a Shakira Shakira Shakira is being proposed there on the first floor. So at some point when archipelago is ready to submit any signage or or what have you associated with that eatery they'll be presenting something with the DRB. And and that's the only thing that I know of right now. But I'm sure things will as they always do will trickle in. Okay. All right. Okay. I don't hear a motion that we adjourn the meeting. Okay. Second. Erica, I second it too. Okay. Our meeting is adjourned. Thanks, everybody.