 So we're gonna get started. Thank you community members for coming. Thank you Ruben Can you hear up? No, it's weird Yeah, they need some help That's a trick Are the slides We're ready. We're ready. Thank you Welcome everybody. We're having a community forum tonight and as soon as this lights get up I'll have a little Where I guess I can start Yeah, okay, we'll let the projector warm up in the meantime This forum It's about sharing some information about how we but how the budget process works and about better and some early information To inform the remaining process. Can you hear me? Okay? I see some I don't know what's going on. Oh Welcome We get so excited when we get public and I'm sorry that I've been bugging some of you, but it's Thank you for being here Maybe they should oh there it is We call it building a mission before building a budget because our goal is to help our board and a community Grounded budget and our financial discussion in what we actually are doing for the kids and what is best for kids The purpose overall of the meeting is to have a meaningful conversation with the public in this case you guys and We want to center all the conversation around students and where the beliefs and the dreams and aspirations of our community members so trying to stay up here in the fire tower not doing the work and Now I'm gonna pass it to me It worked a second ago mark now Next there we go, but I don't know if you did that or I did that So I Also, just wanted to say we're missing our student reps and also our high school folks because right now 32 and Montpelier boys soccer are in the semi-finals. I think the score was tied 1-1 when we walked over So we will excuse them for tonight We would we've talked about this before if you've attended a community forum We do a land acknowledgement for a lot of reasons and these land acknowledgments that we use have been written by students Which is why our student board reps were gonna read them So I'm gonna read this on behalf of Avery Dewey and Andrew. These are a few years old. We will cycle through Different student versions of our land acknowledgments So just want to be clear. These are our students voices So we want to acknowledge that you 32 I know we're in Berlin but these are written by our students at you 32 sits on the unceded traditional lands of the Abinacian nation a tribe of the Wabanaki Confederacy that includes the Cossack Abinaki of the Indakina Meaning homeland territory of Vermont. We ask you to join us and other organizations in acknowledging the Abinac community Their elders both past and present as well as future generations We also acknowledge that many organizations in the United States have perpetuated the exclusions and erasures of many indigenous peoples from our collective history this acknowledgement demonstrates a commitment to Beginning the process of working to dismantle the ongoing legacies of colonialism here in Vermont the place that Abinaki nation calls the dawn As you can tell we don't get to practice before we do this Presentations, but we're gonna do try to do our best So the budget the budget development timeline. Hopefully you can see it clearly there We kicked off the year 2023 2024 budget development process with a board training to explain how The budget is developed and how the Vermont education funding system works We agreed in some assumptions our last meeting and those were Well, we were gonna get assumptions for dental HR community connections and food services expenses to be calculated for the year 2024 and that's going to be about the draft number one If you're interested in viewing that training, please Go to our website and you can find the right right in the website district there's a little like The focus of tonight's community forum will be to review the district current priorities for our students and to gather input about what Aspects of the district are most meaningful to our community and hear from the public what they believe the board should Not accept the support, but what is important to you? If The board will review the level service draft on November 16 So this is work previews to that to that meeting and the goal of the presentation is to understand the estimated costs I feel like I'm Talking right now to people that know about this, but there might be some people in Do we have enough people online? what So a draft one will incorporate the and the estimated increase for salaries benefits insurance Transportation anticipated special and needs after reviewing the budget draft number one The board will provide the leadership team with additional parameters and priorities including budget draft number two The board will host additional community forums and presentations of the budget draft one and two on December 21st and January 18th the community is Is the courage to attend and to provide input and ask questions The goal of the board is to approve the final draft a January 18th as you can see there in order to warn and prepare for our annual meeting The one thing I was going to say is that the November 16 meetings of where we were presented the draft number one is going to be Virtual so that would be an easy meeting for hopefully you can let your friends now so that they can attend A public hearing will take place on March 6 To provide information on the articles to be voted by Australian ballot on March 7 2022 Thanks, Laura. So I'm just going to share a little bit of how we organized the presentation tonight The goal again is to get input from folks that are here We do have a couple of ways to get input from feet folks who aren't able to be here but you're going to hear from most of the leadership team tonight and The the way we've organized it is to start with We're entering budget season So we're going to talk about resources and what we should be doing in supporting with our resources And so we start with the why why what do we need to accomplish with the resources that our communities provide us? And so we're going to talk about our mission We're going to talk about our priority work areas for the district and some information about our instructional plans We'll talk about our students. We'll give a little bit of information about what we know about our students and how that impacts our resources We will talk about things like enrollment. We'll talk about some data sources Talk about some direction the board has given us around the budget It will not have a lot of detail in some of these areas It's enough detail to frame a conversation about what you think it's important for the board to know We will talk about the timeline, which we just did a little bit and the different ways that the community can get input and Hopefully we will have a small group activity and we'll sort of organize that based on who's here and who's on the screen at that point I think I'm turning it to Aaron. Yeah Aaron, do you want to remind them that there's some goodies there too? Thank you Good evening, welcome to Berlin elementary school. Hope you have a pleasant stay All right, so first Take some time to remember our why We're gonna give you some information tonight about the work we do in each school in our schools What we want students to learn our curriculum our mission goals and plans That are part of required state work to achieve the desired student outcomes in our mission We want to underscore that the budget process should be grounded in our mission The budget is a narrative that went done well should reflect our students needs and our community values Budgeting is actually a year-round process that helps us actualize our mission and our values So we'll take a look at some of the various plans that the district has developed in the last several years To identify areas of focus expected outcomes And I was told to mention that there's food Thanks, so we ground ourselves in our mission we operationalize our mission through our student learning outcomes And you can see that our student learning outcomes are there we Have specified the areas in which the knowledge and the skills that we think our students need to know and be able to do in order to realize that mission they are the foundation of all of the work that we do related to curriculum instruction and assessment and You can dig deeper and find out how they're operationalized at each grade level through performance indicators and standards And they were approved by this board in 2016 So as Jen just mentioned Around our student learning outcomes are in addition to delivering the curriculum that we've determined is important for our graduates We are situated in a state that it requires that we develop plans for continuous improvement Last spring, excuse me the board approved a plan that was focused on academic achievement and safe and healthy schools With two really important lenses to guide our work Excuse me to guide our work Those lenses are student engagement and our work on humanity and justice While this Coming budget you won't see that there are changes regarding the continuous improvement plan It's important for us to keep in mind that there are implications for budgeting long-term as some of the resources noted in our current plan Is supported through the use of our best or funds Student for Stephen because he's cheering on our teams at the game Next slide The other in addition as you know to the continuous improvement plan We also were required to write a recovery plan to emerge stricter that's stronger from the pandemic and to address The issues that were caused by the pandemic we in Washington Central chose to Name our plan or plan for moving forward and not our recovery plan and now this plan is really financially operationalized through our our passer funds So the three major pillars where the social emotional learning mental health and well-being pillar an engagement and truancy pillar and academic achievement and success and as Many of you know we are required to publish our public plan for the spending of our passer funds And we are required to gather stakeholder Feedback on a regular basis, so we maintain a place on our website in order to get that information From folks on a regular basis and we attribute opportunities to more formally engage stakeholders every six months We integrated the ideas involved in those plans into three areas District-wide areas of focus came out of the continuous improvement planning this past spring So academic achievement. We will reduce the difference in math performance between historically marginalized students and historically privileged students first instruction systems of intervention Safe and healthy schools will increase students access to classroom instruction through restorative practices and social emotional learning humanity and justice the equity book study and The humanity and justice coalition In addition to the areas of focus that Caroline provided the board provided this parameter in May The leadership team was grateful for that for two reasons one and indicate to year-round budgeting Which we appreciate and then also solidifies our Solid commitment to the community justice and equity and this parameter Encourages us to move forward in achieving significant improvement in math and literacy for our historically marginalized and underserved students As well as our students receiving free and reduced lunch So this next section we're gonna talk talk a little bit about how we focus on students as we build the budget over the course of the year When we think about how we need to spend and direct our resources and that includes both financial resources Also time in our student day We do that based on information about students Today tonight is not an in-depth data presentation But we wanted to share a little bit about the different types of data that we use as a system to understand How we're doing about all that work? We look at benchmark assessments. I'm not gonna read this slide you have access to it But I'll kind of highlight a benchmark assessment is where Research would suggest a student should be and where our students are relative to that Diagnostic helps us kind of dig in and figure out exactly what a student is good at what they're what's difficult for them and helps us target instruction Formative data is Information that we get in real time so that we can react immediately to where kids are and how to adjust our instruction Screening is how we flag Students and say the student isn't where we want them to be in one of those areas and that allows us to Intervene and implement some of our interventions And some of it is really at the end of either a unit or a year measures learning over time There's examples of each one of those things here And there's lots of opportunities over the course of a year Where the board can receive some of this data, but for tonight's purposes We really just want you to understand that this is all part of the picture that we paint so that we know how we should be building our budget So this slide illustrates the decrease in total school student enrollment from 1594 in FY 18 to 1436 in FY 23 or 9.91 percent decrease as The board will recall from the training at the last meeting our enrollment impacts the calculation of our per pupil spending and therefore tax rates Vermont's education funding Formula is based upon cost per student so a decrease in enrollment negatively impacts the tax rate before any changes are made to the budget Later in the budget building process the board will see some additional information about enrollment class sizes This is meant to provide an overview of our more global realities Okay, so this slide is just a review of some of our financials the general budget of 39 million 169,267 dollars was proved by the taxpayers for this current fiscal year And as you can see The large pieces of the pie are direct instruction regular at which is in dark blue Which is thirty four point three nine percent Direct instruction special ed in green is twenty point nine four percent of the budget and support services guidance nurse library tech integration and curriculum are eleven point three two percent Administration, excuse me ten point three five percent and operation of a plant eight point six eight percent This diagram illustrates the various funding sources that offset the general fund expense budget The two sources that make up the most of the revenues with eighty point four one percent coming from education spending and thirteen point one four percent coming from special ed expenditures and reimbursements So the leadership team has already identified current realities that will impact the budget including rising costs declining enrollment staffing shortages and changes to the way that Vermont funds special education needs and changes to the weighting of pupils for the equalized people calculation Based upon board recommendation made last year the plan is to discontinue the use of fund balance as a revenue to support the equity scholar in residence and the new teacher added at East Montpelier elementary school We are looking ahead to assess the impact of reductions in grant funding Including the sunset of our Esther funding in at point twenty five Which has supported additional staff for nursing school counselors and interventionists throughout the pandemic And we are also focused on instructional time because it's a finite resource Thank You Suzanne our next our goal is to break up into small groups in a second, I'm going to flip the slide to show you the questions that we were going to ask because Ideally, so this is designed to gather in small groups. We've got plenty of space in this room We would pass out a mechanism to take notes. I'm kind of distribute board and administrators But I'd like to talk about how we could do that differently because we have Mark how many people do we have on the screen? Okay, and a few community members here, which we're really excited about these are the questions that we are going to that we would like to Get reaction from folks and to be clear board members are community members So we we do want to do this We also want to make it a reasonably comfortable experience for those of you who maybe don't want to be in a group with Several group member board members I Think it's okay. Let's stay together or you guys rather have groups I'm going to put it in our community members in on because it's going to be hard to we don't originally We thought we could have an online group and And in person group if we had too little attendance and you know, we have from what I can see three community members And board members, so I am not want to be the big theory either So what is the pleasure of the board should we say that's one or should we divide in two? Well, let's bid on the community members Yes, I'd say you know fundraiser Board member emeritus It is a little I would just say it is a little easier to have a meaningful conversation if we break up Otherwise it will be sort of like going around and yeah, that's my sense is just from a activity design It might be easier to break up unless folks are really a post I think from an information gathering point of view. I would like to hear from the three Community members two of which are recent board members I mean, I would like to hear from them. I kind of know what these people Right Yeah, that's sort of what I really insisted in small groups last year and Info that we got back was like, you know, we from board members Especially was that they wanted to hear all of the feedback from everybody. So if the Community members are breaking up, which I know they are It to stay in that huge group. I feel comfortable and I also think you guys are comfortable enough with us to speak your mind We would stay in one in one big group so that everybody has the benefit of listening to this and Like we said, we're like man was saying a let's just start with question number one and if you guys feel comfortable Starting up the conversation will bring there's a mic up here and I'm hearing something and soon that in my Yeah, and I might try to call you to the zoom so I can see the person that is still but so what do you value most about the school experience Of the children in our community should be or Yeah, I'll hold it. Yeah, but there's one mic up there. Is that for community members? That's for the orca. Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry I am taking notes. Yeah And Lisa you're taking notes too, yeah Hi See many of you in person I have a second grader run me and I value most the people right the teachers the people who teach the specials the classroom teachers the people who do special education and intervention with my children so a lot of my Focus and thinking about how to do a budget that Makes sense for communities really isn't is really recruited in that and what can we do to make sure that our staff and faculty are getting what they need and that they want to stay in our district and things like that I'm ribbon bed and a parent of a current sixth grader and Seventeenth year as a piece of my player Which is crazy So the thing that I that I value the most is the sense of community that springs from the school and That is rooted in the teachers. It's rooted in the faculty. It's rooted in it It's rooted in the educational experience that happens in the school the values that the school district has codified and That the school district has put into practice through all of the educational programs there Are they're very clearly represented. I think But I think they're very clearly telegraphed out through all of the schools in the district And that work is incredibly important. I know that I've made lifelong friends through the school district by parents and kids in common and all of that And I think it's easy as a school board to forget That that's one of the really we're always talking about community engagement, but whether it's super visible to the board or not It's happening. It's there and so At the end of the day We're here to this school district has a very clear job which is to To prepare students to move on into the world And and that has a million facets that we don't have to talk about But but I think all in all that's that's the work of this school and that's what's been done And I'm Johnny wire house. I'm from Worcester And I've done three things in the first one was community connectedness as well especially at the elementary school level The way the kids are so connected and the faculty and staff and I think at the elementary school level the scale allows for connectedness among the parents as well, which is I think really beneficial for the kids and I Would love to see more of that. A lot of it happens by accident I think it is it just really strengthens kids when Parents are also in relationship with each other The second thing on my list was joy, which is just I my experience is that my kids have loved school and I know that's not true for every kid But it's powerful and there should be more of it As much as possible and then my experience of in the educational quality for for my own kids has been consistently Hi, and I really value that and again, I know that There are families that don't feel that that's true for their kids And that I think is really important that everyone would be able to feel like the educational quality that their kids are receiving is consistently high Yeah, Mark. I didn't could you ask the person on the screen. I didn't join this zoom Because I'm the person on the screen because I can't see who it is And I'll join the zoom now I think the question is just Oh there yeah, oh, so it's David David. Do you have anything to share? And we don't have to put them on the spot. Yeah, he doesn't I don't know that he can hear us Mark, where's the mic for that? No for the Computer like It's it's this one. Okay. Okay, so we can assume that he can hear it. Okay, so Okay, so then we can go into the next to the next question Yeah, there's no reason to not yeah, yeah, yeah Um Well, I just want to echo some of what was said which is community is huge and I particularly appreciate how in our district We nurture not just the academic sides of the emotional side of our students so You know, there's principle meeting every student at the door every morning and dog Or you know, the yoga club that just started it don't need but yeah, it's just a really holistic Community to be a part of which I appreciate and that continues in high school where you know, yes academics are important, but so we've seen our sports in part and it's all celebrated together Thank you. So time I have a follow-up question for you and I'm assuming you have to an anecdotal in a way, but you talked about how You value the quality of the education that your students were getting But that in conversation with other parents, they didn't feel that they were their students were getting as Much of a quality education Was there any sense as to why the difference if it dealt with students in the same school? Well, not not well, you know, I just I'm thinking about all the people who aren't here And What it took for me to be here and all the people who couldn't be here tonight And I just I just had a conversation a couple nights ago a lengthy conversation with one of my neighbors who was talking about her Kids experience and I was just thinking about her and how different her experience was for mine And she and I went to elementary school together like grew up together and we've like lived very different lives and Our experience of our kids education have been really different So I just was I feel like I you know thinking about her and all the other folks who aren't here But who are like deeply rooted in the community and we're all connected and we're like Going to the same schools and having totally different experiences My concern was that there was a quality difference for that student in the same school, right? You know so and and her kids and my kids at the experience of high school At the same time we're just different. So that's real. Thanks So we're gonna move to the next Question and then we can have follow-up questions if there's other things you guys would like to share So developing the budget usually requires a school board to make choices. So given what you heard tonight What do you What do you think the board should consider as they develop the budget? Where's there anything concerning that you heard or Sorry Mike We're gonna get the miles today I'm wondering how that so the slide with the student enrollment stood out of me because obviously there's We're sliding Does this board have a sense of What that trend looks like Looking into a crystal ball as best you can Is this you know, we see like You know population and flow in our communities. Are we Projecting this to keep going down by one degree I mean, I assume that you guys have sort of done this work to extract like that out But that was a piece that stood out to me So see yes, do you want to give it to Susanne right next to you because the short answer is projections will continue to decline for sure Susie and may have some more detail around that It continues to go down in each of our schools even East Montpelier this year You've seen a size will decrease and then the classes coming up Are even smaller than the ones that are moving up to the high school Any other concern, you know from community members anything that stood out besides the enrollment That I Think we got enough input about you know taking care of I'm listening to you guys there I guess We haven't really said what we do if we were listening to all of the different aspects that went to the budget and the climate population is one and You know, we at least we try to emphasize it in our letter in the report letter that went out last year Right like this year. We're gonna have to be more creative. Are we can you guys hear me? Okay, it's like We are Keep asking this question restructure the way that we need to be structured to best serve our kids and to give the best opportunities and the best outcomes To and to all our kids, right? So we're gonna have to you know Give that question to the leadership team, too, right? But how can we structure ourselves to make sure that we're not gonna have to let go of Teachers right but that we know that we don't have enough teachers as it is right now But I restructure and I know that that is a conversation that we can't have without the community so it might be that you know thinking out loud and with fear of being misinterpreted, but you know Can we be more creative about one of our schools or two of our schools? You know, how do we move kids between our schools or how do we do our policy for? Choice school choice, right? So how do we make sure that we provide and you know a crazy idea that we float at last year and never came to? Frition was like, you know, we know that we have a child care problem right now Should we be more creative in our schools? I think there's a lot of things that we could that we could do what we want to make sure is that we're taking Input from our communities before we dive into any, you know, bigger position Yeah, and I would add to that that this board has two goals that are related to these bigger picture Conversations one of them is long-term planning and one of them is community engagement and in order for us to have Conversations that are difficult creative all of the above. We have to really deeply lean into engaging the communities in a visioning What do we want for our kids? What do we want for them at every step of the way? What's important to us? and Then let the conversations about structure follow a conversation about what we believe about our kids and that really is the board's conversation to have and that one To the extent that we can that should come first It's hard our reality is hopefully don't catch up with us faster than then we can have that conversation But I think that's how the board that would be the order of operations because that's how we can make sure that That's what's grounding any decision that gets made around Our realities because our enrollment is a reality Our changes in funding those are realities Those are things we're going to have to face and if we want to face them in a way that still gets our kids What we want them to have still gives our communities what they value about our schools Then we really have to lean in on those conversations and those are not going to be magically wrapped up by our Round-to-budget draft right those are long-term conversations today's really about you know, it's Thinking about this coming budget season and understanding where we are in that longer longer trajectory I don't know if other board members have stuff to share too. It's been the other thing I wanted to add that I Believe you're on mention briefly was like we're really moving it to year-round buttoning, right? That's a goal of the board and and we go back some slides and mark I think to me the big takeaway for us is how we're structuring even their reports from our staff now and keeping in mind I can make achievement safe and healthy schools and humanity injustice. So we're really Having that big umbrella but equity lens when we're looking at all of this so that when we go talk to the community And like Megan said We can't do it fast enough, right? That's that is the challenge that that we have right now But not everything is going to happen this year, but we need to be creative So well, we yeah, so well, obviously a sound system should be in the budget So we know that board forums and we've heard this from our community Are not the only way to get input So we really really appreciate those who can come but we also understand that everyone has we've had pretty good luck With folks saying we like surveys we like to respond to that way and we get a reasonable response, right? Don't pretend that it's all the engagement we need to do but we do have an opportunity This will go out on our various social media platforms asking the same questions And that's information that the board and the administration can have as they bring the next budget So so you'll you'll get those surveys We also post the slides themselves so people can kind of have some context And the next step budget is showing you what you what would it look like? What would it cost to deliver what we are delivering right now next year? That's what November 16th is and that's a data point That's part of our context that then launches us into so what does that mean for the budget that we're actually going to propose so Yeah, I think concludes the community for important. Yeah, we have a little bit of board business after Don't feel like you guys have to stay. We really appreciate it when your members in will David Thank you for coming and thank you you guys for being here really appreciated and if you think about something later We just posted in the zoom that Deserving to or look for Megan's letter, please Mike's really good It's getting loose again Again, I'm sorry for having been late. I missed this but that's November 16th. That's the sort of same as this past year in terms of Is it safe to assume that there isn't going to be a budget that's like we're gonna have a bunch of things to help us meet these Additional those three goals is it safe to assume that from November 16? We're going to have to make Or is that well the I'm gonna try to just be loud the board will will the board will absorb that Information and have a discussion about all of that and they will say because their job is to Thread a needle of what they think the community can support and help us achieve our goals So they will hear they will learn more about our student more detail about things like that Here's what it would cost to do what we're doing now And then they will give administration some direction and the direction is Dependent on what that first draft looks like but it also then says well we these are the things really important so It's not always about cuts, but it may be about directing resources differently There are certain sort of like It's like So if I'm really young how I want the board desperately to have a comms like a point five FTE comms person whose job it is to send out Email all the comfort farms and I'm in the community But someone who's got it is that all the overworked board members and all the work admin folks don't have to take this But like it's a dream dream. I have I'm not going to let it go That's not the only opportunity but that's the best opportunity for to front load the feedback so that we sort of get it So that the board can hear it out of the gate And then there's more opportunities each time something's presented, but yes We take notes and the survey is great Could you say a little more about what you're looking for? Well, I think it's a it's not a full-time I mean, maybe there's probably plenty of work for it to be a full-time decision But I'm conscious of these constraints Physically, but so I think it's a person whose job it is to Have a paragraph that is ready to go for each local from porch form about what the meeting is What's on the agenda? What's gonna be discussed and then a follow-up right after the meeting? Here's the two paragraph summary of what happened there the person who's gonna Because I just the reality is all of you are working so hard to expect you to be able to do that on a rare basis I mean, I've been tasked with that when I'm a volunteer and like I do it the first two months I'm so into it We get it out there and then you know, right? So like if it's someone's job to do that and other stuff, you know, maybe they can facilitate Other opportunities for community contact, but really almost yeah It's like a comms person. They're the person who posts on social media who maintains a Facebook or Twitter or whatever sort of other pathways for the board to liaise with community members on a more regular One just quick follow-up question one of the priorities was was around equity and Marginalized or not marginalized is that a treatment gap? Improving or not improving in the last say three years That's a great question. I mean the easy answer to that question and this goes for schools everywhere Is that the pandemic exacerbated our gaps for sure? Right, so there's enough of an outlet is almost not really a fair question right now Yeah, well, I mean you've nailed Come into sharper focus Agreed. Yeah I'm gonna say one last thing and then this is like the most intention I've ever gotten from the board First I just wanted to say thank you a huge thank you for you to all of you for your leadership and your labor and especially to floor Megan and I Told this to Jeff. I was just composing love letters to Jen in my head all last year right any of them, but I feel like she was getting them So thank you, but I in relation to what you were talking about I was thinking about the community at large and how bizarre it is that there are people in the community You were like well, I'm not connected to the school because I don't have a kid there versus like these are our future adults like these are the adults of You know 10 years and 15 or 20 years from now, I couldn't they love the idea of a communication strategy That's just like like people. This is not about like your kids are already grown up like these are our This is our future And we're all in it Thank you Thank you We're still rusty at what this now looks like again when we go back to rotating so we appreciate everyone's patience because it's been it's been Three years since we've remembered how to set it up each space so Stay I Should call it okay, so we're at journey the community for 7-11 even though we posted it at 7 20, but it's our learning so I think we're okay With everybody Really Of those that read it thoroughly But we'll know quickly if you have some questions thoughts comments about the content This Particular research I became close friends with Ivan Lawrence and from Montana. He was a school board member in Missoula for 20 years and They have kind of in Montana what was historically maybe more common here in Vermont But still is the case where there were k-6 districts k-8 districts 912 districts k-12 districts All of that but I've been served as a board member for 20 years And was also an honors college teacher and college administrator and he decided pretty late in life to finish a doctorate in education So Bill McCauke who co-authored this chapter was one of his professors and through the process they became very close friends But my opportunities with Ivan included a couple of really key moments He had heard that Mary Della Gardell was doing some workshops for me in Washington State With small groups and what we were doing was sort of fishbowl So for train the trainer work Mary was coming in from Iowa Working with a board superintendent team and those of us were on the outside Watching and observing and then debriefing later with Mary You'll remember Mary Della Gardell is named from chapter one and she passed away about six years ago So right about the same time this book came out and I was I've often said that you know The book is worth chapter one just knowing Mary Della Gardell Who I think of the people like Caroline who have been a school board member and the school administrator and really have sort of a unique perspective Because wouldn't it be amazing if Caroline was working on a doctorate in school governance and how she could bring back I'm gonna read my back Bring sort of the two sides together because there's just not enough of this work So Ivan was able to do something similar from his experience in higher ed and then also as a school board member sort of think across The line if you will and think across the gray area the blurry spots between what does the board do versus what does the superintendent do? And and all just a lot of the best research on school governance comes from folks who have had a little bit experience here A little bit experience there and let's think together about this. So great to have administrators with us. I'm just looking this way over Tonight because we certainly want them to weigh in and I really don't mean to have my back to them It's just the way floor made me stand and We've gone since August Thinking about it trying to tie some things together We sent you some notes that highlight things that I'll go a bit off the cuff on here But really in the introduction to this book improving school board effectiveness There's an emphasis on the fact that school boards do matter This is was a novel idea 25 to 30 years ago Research started to emerge early 80s into the 90s Maybe boards are sort of a missing component in district improvement Because most work was done either on the classroom level in particular the teacher and the student and then to a limited extent even with principles It was probably into the term of this century that people began to decide that what superintendents do might matter It was really a seminal research study in 2005 where folks said oh Who the superintendent is might affect student achievement in some ways And so in that mix was this idea that what we as school board members do Matters and I still say we even though it's been quite a few years since I served on a local board I think of myself as a school board member still So in chapter one we get this seminal study from Mary Della Gargall that spanned about 13 to 15 years depending on the phases you look at it was well funded and Well thought through it's still the most cited piece of school governance research For people doing research in governance today and ended about 2013 so not that long ago But the great news is here people like Ivan have continued to study and build upon that work We sort of skipped over chapter two and We're gonna we're gonna mention the one really salient point from chapter two tonight But chapter three we spoke about last time when we talked about last time we were together about community engagement and the board Bonding with each other Getting to know each other Ursula just reminded me minutes ago How important that is and how valuable it is because when board members have good relationships strong relationships with each other it's like Stephen and Mark Hovey wrote about it in the speed of trust Things happen quicker. They happen more quickly. They happen with less drama when when people have strong relationships on board They also emphasize the importance of the board having strong relationships with the community and how that Research into nonprofit boards and other types of boards have shown this connection that the more the board is cohesive with each other and the more they're sort of Adhesive or connected to the community the more likely that the organization is successful and thriving that idea of bridging and bonding and so from that We step into chapter four Again built on the like-house study What Ivan did was he took the work that Mary had done around the beliefs and sort of proposed actions These are when we look at a board in a system that's improving in student achievement And we compare that to the actions and beliefs of the board that's stagnant or declining in student achievement Mary sort of teased out with a team of researchers These are some of the differences These boards behave one way and these boards seem to behave another and she began to sort of Create a typology or categorize boards that were in districts in in districts that were improving in achievement They had conversations about data Some of those key differences between those in the boards that didn't have improving achievement They didn't have clues going on the data In the stagnant districts and they initially did this research in the state of Georgia so they compared districts that were similar their demographics and As as comparable as they could and then looked at how are the students performing on state tests in Georgia in those systems where Students were achieving at increasing levels board members said things like Not not all of our students come here equally or fully prepared But we do everything we can to make sure they get what it takes to be successful Board members in districts that were declining in achievement. They said things like well We could do better if parents would send us better kids literal statements in interviews with board members We could do better with our students if their parents would turn the TV off There was always this if for this but this excuse and really one of the takeaways to transition this is is that idea of a leadership Deciding they're not going to let there be an excuse whether it's you know zip code slash neighborhood Whether it's socioeconomics whether it's race whether it's any demographic factor that would Pre-suggest a difference in student outcomes Boards and high achieving systems said we're not going to make excuses you What we've learned since then and I think Ivan's work helped us to learn this that when boards look At student achievement in an improving district or a district that's making progress Not only are they not making excuses for the data They're not blaming or shaming So the beauty for me in this work and what's been exciting over the last 20 years one of the most exciting things for me has been Ivan Lawrence's research Picking up where Mary left off with here's what we think and then doing a quantitative analysis of board self Reported self-assessment data in a research-based and statistically validated board self-assessment I've been used that as the foundation for his dissertation and simply noted These districts where students are improving in achievement They're doing some things differently than other districts are and again We have the qualitative that really came with some quantitative components out of the lighthouse But this chapter 4 takes it to the specifics there's actually seven different things that they mentioned there in The middle of this chapter that they found highly statistically significant with boards Having a relationship with improving student achievement Now I firmly believe it and one of the reasons I'm here tonight. I believe the school boards make a difference No credible person Can say it works do one two and three student achievement will improve There are multiple linkages in between that from every single factor We can imagine right to get to that that we can't make that week What we can say is that districts that are improving in achievement. They have some characteristics that they bring to the equation Thoughts or questions. I've kind of ignored my questions sitting beside me here on anything. I just said I'm trying to connect the dots and I want to do that before we close to because Emerging research since this study again is showing a strong linkage that I think is really important for your system They start the chapter. I think with these thoughts Is this in the best interest of students? I've been to school boards where they have on the back of their name placards Student first or something like that. You're like, you know, maybe it becomes kind of a mantra but Why is it typically difficult according to the authors any thoughts? Why is it typically difficult for a Lay elected board to really make that leap between just the rhetoric of the question is this in the best interest of students and And the reality in the way that we govern Why is that difficult for us? Yeah, I feel like I'm having that conversation daily with people like what in our life Prepared us to be part of an education governance team and how's that different from our normal day job? Yeah Yeah So think with me because some of the research says people with a background in education They actually have a bigger struggle than those of us that didn't have a background in education Think with me about what is the expertise that the board members do bring? like what's that critical expertise and it doesn't you know need to be a Quick answer or on the spot answer, but what is the expertise that lay elected citizens bring? And perhaps in an ideal world and perhaps in the real world as well Yeah, so I think it's about systems So if we come together and think about our systems and from the system functioning I think another barrier that comes into play is what brought me to the table might be very different than what brought others To the table and whether or not I'm open to figuring that out together or not can be a barrier or Can help with that systems And that's been identified in the last several years of the systems thinking component right being a good board member And some people have life experience that allows them to think more in systems than others because I mean typically as you look around our community School districts are frequently the largest business largest entity largest employer Biggest budget of anything else in the community and that's that's true all across the country So so all to say a lot of us don't necessarily have experience in higher order systems complex organizations, you know, we might be a sole proprietor or You know, we might even have employees, but it might be six or seven not 150 or whatever right? It's it's more limited Certainly an advantage to have systems thinking What is the expertise that lay-elected citizens bring to us? Look at him. Natasha. So he's looking away. I heard the word community Chris It can be nothing. I'm other than being a community member and you have the eyes and ears of the community But in terms of expertise Maybe nothing And maybe you know the world because I heard community here. I heard community there. Yeah Somebody else first Was it Daniel? Somebody had her name. Oh But it's we all come with a variety of connections and a variety of levels of which we're involved in our community and Talked about it in the last chapter on that So we do bring in that Difference and therefore different ways of thinking or even just different knowledge So I'm going to look at a situation different than the rest of you And it doesn't mean we won't be able to like agree on something. It just means we're going to have different And hopefully you do have different viewpoints card Yeah, I'm kind of struggling with expertise. I don't really think about it that way But I think it's more like a willingness to step up and say I'm I'm willing to govern Represent what I believe is the values of the community what what we expect from the schools for our children and Come budget time what we think Citizens With Passion and passions tricky, right? I've worked with boards for every single board member We were talking about how You know how important it is to sort of maintain focus on that passion but yet figure out how to do it in a way that's Powerful or effective right like how to how to bring Forward an issue in a constructive way Daniel, would you have your hand up? You're just thinking you have a thinking expression floor What everybody was saying that diversity of thought that we all bring and the willingness to be a critical thinker that you know the willingness to learn but mostly the understanding of how Important public education is for the future of our kids, right? So so we bring that citizenship to the scale that every day through the doors of our schools, you know, we're You know not making but like giving opportunities to all the kids is the equalizer for our society the future citizens So think that you know, that's not necessarily a pat It could be a passion for some but it's like understanding of the bigger purpose of public education Which is part of the reason we have boards, right and to connect that, you know, we're not disconnect that with our communities So yeah, let me stand just a thought from what's been said because all of you have said aspects of this, but Maybe the one thing that we all need to bring to school board service is expert citizenship Right that that ability to listen to other for viewpoints to bring the passion of our perspectives and Figure out how to collaborate how to cooperate How to relate and and the community connections piece, right? Like how do we bring that? Sort of and maybe it's the wrong word. I don't know but that expert citizenship to the guys Ensuring that all voices are heard and that we're behaving in a way that's not front-page news Really? So what are we asking boards to do if they're going to govern in the best interest of all students or each and every student? What are we asking boards to do? Farmer board No Well, I think we're I mean with our committee work in that we're working to balance it we're working to Understand whatever experience is in our own So in order to budget or in order to plan I need to be sure that I'm understanding each step of the journey that all of our learners are going through and So we need to be open and in dialogue around what that looks like How do you govern in a way what this is something frankly we know a little bit about from this chapter, but We need to know more about like what does governance look like that truly is supporting improved achievement of all students and supporting closing gaps For lunch That's not our job But also being that voice that talks to the community to tell them like What we're trying to do So There's a lot to the word balance and they do highlight that difference between like being totally disengaged versus managing and What is the right sort of conceptual thinking of board members for how to operate in what we might think of as? informed oversight like what does it mean to be informed and asking thoughtful Questions at a governance level Ivan loves to draw those boxes and he's driven up He's drawn a lot of boxes since this book came out that sort of has the community in there Pulls in there and you know all the different configurations But it's the overlapping and I think he identified what's a key there is where does the board overlap? especially with the superintendent Right and they talk about how there's things the superintendent can do and only she can do There's things the board can do and only the board can do and then where's that shared space So that it's not the extreme of micromanaging and it's not the extreme of rubber stamping either like finding You only get there through a conversation and an ongoing conversation because who knows what comes up tomorrow What the issue is and what did the board need to be informed about what did the board need to be involved in? What is truly just the work of the superintendent and her staff, right? It's an ongoing conversation like any other kind of relationship So if you think about What the board can do I? Think he's seven maybe what I sent you as a note was five different broad areas that showed In Ivan's research nine years ago in the state of Montana So give it those boundaries looking at a comparison between what board members said they did and Student achievement is measured by a state standardized test What were those broad areas in the middle of this chapter that they identify and again several of these in fact the first one I think was number one highly statistically significant Our our value of point seven one so extremely significant and Statistically speaking What was that that number one area that they listed you've got your book there? Is that a valuing superintendent? Yes, and holding them account how in the superintendent accountable for So so the problem I have with this book is that it has a lot of generalizations without specifics. Yeah, and I'm wondering if there's Like kind of a follow-up where I think in business school that case studies This is a business problem. This is what they did to try and improve it and what did and didn't work We have more specifics as opposed to you know, just a general statement of principle Yeah, I appreciate you pointing out The thing that I would say is a problem with the book as well, right? This was a lot of academics create, you know, sharing their perspectives inside and sometimes misses that Okay, exactly. What are you asking us to do and the specifics in that question on the board self-assessment? You know, is the board evaluating the superintendent based on achieving goals for student achievement? You know, so it it really did get concrete someone even say maybe too concrete But that's not Related to clearly in the book Right, so so it doesn't end up kind of giving an in a a okay You value the superintendent and if the goals aren't being achieved then what and you're dealing with a board that you know Just doesn't really fire people and so it's getting you're not getting into the degree of saying, okay This is what the board should be doing Megan Please no pitchforks But it's just it's just a reality check is that You know, we don't we don't do that here But what you hear me out generally, it's a general state But how do you get to the point how do you get to the point of holding people accountable? Yeah, is what I'm really getting at is you say, okay, you can hold them accountable and then Especially with the board that doesn't have the expertise to say we think this particular educational Maneuver that you took or this this program that you implemented didn't really work out well because we think it did club a block We're not we were lying on the administration to give us the information because that's their lane of expertise, right? so it's kind of Hadn't had to negotiate that or how to get so it's so it's Substantive I guess This is this is the conversational part I just wanted to like put something on perspective that I did see in the book like we don't The evaluation the superintendent is not in isolation of setting our goals in aligning our goals and understanding what Where are we going as a district? So not all the data is responsible in one in one person, right? so I Think some of the time at least in my mind a lot of the times when organizations fail is because you're relying just in that one leader Right, you're we're not never relying in just one leader to make all the things All the things happen So the evaluation is super intended to continue to me is to make sure that if there's places where we need to improve You know, we are in communication to put that as a priorities every time that we improve whether it is Personal growth or it is for our for our district, but we're not Hovering the superintendent in order to fire or not to provide, you know, I mean So I just wanted to put that into perspective at least from my point of a very isolated point of view This is what I believe Megan Yeah, I understand where you're just it's the accountability part. Yeah, how do you enforce the accountability or how do you pursue it? And and you know firing certainly the extreme, but if you want incremental improvement yet, there's how do you how do you? How do you ensure accountability yeah accountability and growth? How's the conversation about growth and hopefully we get to chapter eight someday When we'll talk more in depth about when you evaluate a superintendent, you're evaluating the impact of leadership Mm-hmm, and that's that's hard for a lot of us It's not something we would typically have experience evaluating the impact of someone's leadership on a system Megan and then Jonas. I was gonna say Jonas go and then I have a thought so speaking to the lack of Concrete sort of suggestions and steps best practices What I'm gonna say is gonna sound self-satisfied, but I don't think we're the target audience for this book. I Will admit mr. Gore. I did not read chapter four as closely as I could have Chapters and having read the previous book. Yeah, I have to squint really hard To look at to see some of these challenges on this board. I think this board as currently constructed is working in good faith Diligently with its eyes on its goals with its eyes on supporting all of the stakeholders in the system We are not perfect floor is not perfect Megan is not perfect none of us are perfect the principles are not perfect but I think that if We there are there are examples there are examples of boards that do not function very well and We do not rhyme with them these Books are going to be this kind of literature and research is going to be most useful For a board that when it reads this is looking in a mirror That's not this boy. The problem is we can't get a dysfunctional board So I think the extension of what you're saying is What do you place what practices what policies what mechanisms you put in place? To keep the board stable over time. What would take this board to the next level? So Phil I think my comment. I really appreciate that Jonas because I think And and anyone who is at the ad quality meeting a few minutes ago or a little longer than that That is what this this board is talking about metrics to be able to understand how we're doing on our goals and those are Our I mean we're having really good conversations about how will we know if we're if we're Doing well Those are I think some of how and and that yeah, there's involved I mean evaluating the superintendent's part of that but some of that is what's the health of the system? What does that tell the board? What does that tell the board about how to direct their resources? What does it tell the board about? different ways to direct the resources because of what we are Finding and I think that I mean I would I've seen more More helpful and and Positive conversations in the few ad quality meetings that I've had here then in my past history where Boards have taken years to talk about what our indicators going to be so I think we are and I that's the credit of this board because that work preceded me for sure That is how we know whether or not we are doing our work and it it isn't in a gotcha way It's in a oh, this is what we learned and what does that mean about what we learned and So I think that's part of it. I think this board is building structures to To solidify that and to make it that more predictable that that's part of where the work is right now is like What's the how do we do that so that as new members come on board? They know. Oh, this is how we measure things It's really nice to hear that in a way And as the newest member of the board that have been never served I think When I'm in one of my other jobs, we're trying to unionize faculty and We have a great relationship with the president and our response was well She's not always going to be Right, and I think on a board like this on something like this that changes Faces sometimes might go faster like having this institutional knowledge Spread amongst us all Yeah Yeah in that so we were in that question about what are some specific actions the board can take and they identify Holding the system accountable, which is partly how you evaluate the superintendent I mean, that's one of the big levers we have as a board is how we evaluate the superintendent And if we do that right it helps drive improvement throughout the system If we make that evaluation about growth about improvement and we have some measurable targets They they identify I think there were at least three areas in the board self-assessment that came out highly statistically significant and Two of them were others were very related to this one was Communicating the goals for the superintendent to the community, right? So putting that on the website and newsletters like not having a whole separate set of goals But these are our district goals. These are our superintendent schools This is what we're shooting for and and then communicating that out, but ultimately the board needs to use you know use the quantitative approach as a piece of Decisions on the superintendent's contract decisions about extension decisions about raises that kind of thing When that's all tied together That seemed to be some of the things that correlated with systems that were improving achievement What were what were just some of the others in that Good anything else that you pull out of that and say, you know, here's here's one. We're doing really well Here's one where maybe we could identify it as an area of focus What gets fuzzy for me is kind of Creating conditions for success, you know Exactly precisely what does that mean and it gets kind of theoretical What role does the board have in the overall culture and climate of the district? How does the board engage with each other and then together with the superintendent to Sort of message to the community that things are stable, but yet they're also Striking for improvement. How how does the board do that any thoughts on? What actions the board? Takes that sort of help contribute to conditions for success I'm just stuck by that one. There's a variety of things in there like this board is always prioritized facilities And I think we've done a really good job with that but also in that category was getting involved in setting curricula I've never been part of the conversation about at that level. I don't think so Yeah, what what is the board's legitimate role and curricular decisions Because in the large space Any other thoughts on specific actions of the board that might support improved achievement. I Think that we have done very well At staying out of the weeds as Ursula often reminds us in the heat of discussion She's the monitor of that particular. I think that we have made We have been very clear and I think we can credit Steve look for a lot of that Right very clear about what we want. We want that floor raised After that like what else can we I mean we are trying to engage with community, right? We are trying to ensure a welcoming workspace for the staff We are trying to make schools a welcoming place for everyone right and not blaming and shaming the community for things Right that right that we're that's not what we're doing. I think though, I mean Other than getting involved by getting involved in curricula like I don't think this Autofill Component to that that would be a terrible thing for me to be making decisions. I Mean, this is what we're trying to provide the leadership to the leader right And create the conditions in the community for children to thrive but I Sorry, but I think that Like you said this circums the wave hasn't quite hit us yet as to what we do I think we all collectively feel that we are also that buffer should outside pressures come and tell us How to you know, how our kids should learn what we should provide? I think we are all fully committed to being that that stop and so You know, we haven't had that wave yet, but I I feel very comfortable that I know that's an action Yeah, I think you're on the right track because that way is coming You don't have to look far to recognize sort of the partisan employees that are Infecting and affecting school boards and it's pretty creepy scary I've lived in some of it and I've tried to help boards through it I've been recently digging into Older Information and reports, you know, what were boards doing during the Great Depression? What were they doing through the civil unrest of the 60s? What can we learn to you know, try to bring forward because These are disturbing times and the work of school boards around the country and in many areas of Vermont So you have any see lights like that's coming to a theater near you Sort of thing potentially We've started taking these steps right we've started the super evaluation process We're working on building a an evaluation process that will be annual that we will do and there will be a review cycle And kudos to Jen kudos to Jen for helping us do that last year So it is speaking of my best friend to all of you for more than half an hour anything from your perspectives that you could contribute to Maybe it's even a perhaps, you know, it's like here's what I'm thinking about wondering about how what can a board do? to support improve student achievement and closing gaps and achievement, you know I asked Steve Dellinger paid four years ago if he would give us bad news and Not just good news and went if he would tell us when we're not doing as well as we could that's good and he did I Hope you guys will too at least anonymously If it needs to be Yeah, yeah Actually, you know, we had an experience from Barry recently where the administration did say to the board Couple months ago. Maybe he's saying you guys need to do better. You need to do better and at least a more recent report in the Times August was that there's some incremental improvement not not fantastic, but incremental improvement and it was it was probably fresh to hear that That they need to do better the board need to do better Any thoughts from the book like it's not your own thought it's not an accusation You're not throwing stones, but just something positive boards can do to support improved achievement increased community connections Say something thanks I Think just Yeah That was a great thing to try to wrap up with right back to how does the board all behavior that you want to see happen in the classroom I've asked that with boards in Vermont that are had been behaving in ways that They would have expected the student to be disciplined for right and that idea of Board has not only just a steward of the public's trust in general, but in particularly a steward of civil discourse a democratizing approach to school guidance an approach that's inclusive and reaching out and bringing people in as opposed to partisan debate or bickering Or making sides or working in collusion behind the scenes as comes out of newspapers from time to time To divide board members against each other or against the superintendent or whatever I mean, if there's something we can do boards can do right now. It really is about modeling civic engagement modeling civil discourse not violating open meetings law Some of the things we see across the state a lot of overuse and abuse of the executive section For people to say things to each other that never needed to be said to start with and so how how does the board sort of stay above that and Absolutely when things are going well That's the time to have those conversations right because you can't have one things are Dispand to layer Hopefully this was helpful to you the next three chapters in this book really focus a lot on board self-assessment From different approaches different authors are talking about here's the kinds of things that board should be self-assessing and saying are we Are we doing well? Are we struggling where are some areas for us to focus on and Those three chapters, you know really tie together in helping the board sort of model a Professional reflective practice that you want to see happen throughout the school system with the superintendent with other staff with teachers and with students Modeling that self-reflection. How are we doing? Am I doing all the things that I can do are there some things we need to work on? So thanks for your time again. Sorry to run a couple minutes over. Thank you. Thank you With that we're gonna move into our the rest of our board meeting I you know, I want to appreciate the staff for being here with us tonight Don't feel like you have to stay through this last part get home get something to eat and Rest in I think you know the board will continue to strive to be Continue to create that culture that we want to see in our buildings And now we try to mirror what we learned from you and hopefully we will make you proud as we go through the budget process So let's move into Approving new teacher resignations We had some data. Oh, yeah, it's okay. Okay. Thank you Natasha for being here Lindy you want to take this I just have my if somebody else wants to take it It's just but he's ready. I says like the read each of them. Is that make sense? Read each name and then yeah Thank you, Lindy second Chris You're so polite so Lisa who did you get? Who did you get for a second? Okay, we'll go with that All those in favor personify by saying aye Any opposed Any abstain hearing none of the motion carries You guys all got to see the substitute memo And If I have a motion that we can talk a little bit about it, could I have a motion to approve? Move that we approve the substitute rate change That's proposed in the memo. Okay. Thank you Oh, sorry, I move that we Support and improve the Proposed substitute Changes for salary for substitutes proposed in the memo Second, okay Now discussion so that we can hear a little bit about it and you know if people have questions first Yeah, I think I mean in you folks have been aware of our challenges trying to fill it this is one way as is the permanent building sub which is a a Position that many districts use that brings them some stability and predictability Whether or not any of these are the magic wand that we need to to rectify our staffing challenges I don't know. I don't think there is a magic wand But these feel like two really necessary steps Particularly happy to answer I guess I'm curious about the Comparatives like is there a relationship across the state that we Substitute pay Unability to fill those substitutions like is the principles association or anyone tracking that so I'll be honest And this is through the answer to the whether or not the VPA is tracking I don't know but based on the conversations that I have with my counterparts in multiple parts of the state Many have increased sub-pay and all are still struggling with finding subs This is kind of what I mean by I'm not sure that this is a magic bullet. However I don't want to not unearth this stone to see if it will work And it only makes sense to be comparable with our neighbors because that's who we are Sharing resources or not sharing resources, but competing quite frankly. So That's the that's a hard comfort. That's a hard thing hard answer, but anecdotally I Everyone is still struggling and almost every system that I interact with regularly has at least in the past year or so Yeah, yeah, and that happens too and We did not move to exceed our neighbors. I mean this has a financial impact just to do this It's an impact We think we can weather and it's an impact we think is worth it to try to get people but that you know It's it's still an impact But it's one that we think is manageable Is there any impact on the clip the bargain agreement to have the permanence of is there has that been vetted So Steven has had conversing because this is going to start at you 32. He has had conversations with the association And and yes, they're comfortable with it The one thing he understands is that it's possible that when he posts that position a Current support staff might say oh, that's a really interesting type of job I want that and then he'll have a vacancy under here if he right Correct. So that's a he understands that yeah, so that's more just of It may become an appealing position to someone else or we've had one in the past though. So that's interesting that that In terms of the challenge around the collective bargaining I mean years ago. They had one. Yeah, and I don't think it's a challenge. I think it's just an additional Right when you create a position in a in a thin staff and you you rob Peter to pay for all. Yeah That's all. Yeah I'll also say This is a minor a couple of minor things but The language around duties in the teacher's agreement says that if teachers perform duties above um, I think beyond 90 minutes weekly, then they'll be reimbursed at the prorated sub rate and the ESP agreement Also has something about the sub rate that Um unused personal days The unused personal day that we encourage people to not take at the end of the year will be paid out at the per day sub rate So do we need do we need to clarify here? Then that language applies to the Substitute sub rate as opposed to the permanent sub rate because those are two different numbers I think it's it's the per day Oh, it's a per day. That's what it says. Okay. Okay, great Thanks He asked whether or not the contract references the daily sub rate or this new rate That's attached to the permanent sub and the contract references the daily. The daily rate. Okay. It's a 125 A separate job. Correct. It's a separate job. Yeah. Yeah, and if it is something that proves to be viable and proves to Work then it would become a conversation that Stephen would have as part of the budget process So it is it is intended to be this temporary right now to see if it if it works I mean could could work at the elementary schools as a rotating. Yep To valuable to each one. Yes, whoever needs it on the day And we've actually had that conversation as well that if it proves viable at the high school What would be the mechanism to have the same type of support for the elementary schools? And it would be probably some sort of shared or maybe two Between right To be to be determined based on how this works Yep I've been in systems that also have used this position. Um, and it's that is that's the advantage that people describe Any other questions or ways I'll ask for a vote? All those in favor, please signify by saying hi All right Any opposed Thank you very much the motion Thank you very much So we just voted though on the raise we didn't vote on the permanent And and the memo it said that but all but the motion was Because you said approval of the memo So so we're so they're approving the the job description and the salary That's sure that was what I don't want to have any So I'm going to offer another motion that we approve the permanent sub proposal. Um in the memorandum The job description and the salary and the salary for the permanent sub that will initially Work at U32 But let Lisa put it and read it to us so that we Is that Yes If everybody feels comfortable with that, I don't think we need to revoke but Is that a clarification? That's what that's what I understood. But yeah, okay We can adjourn. Thank you