 So, we're on the last of these cafe talks, which I think have gone really well. I'm glad that we've done so many, because the discussions have been very different each time. But let's talk a little bit about, you know, the foundation of cover crops is really picking your goal and understanding what you want to do with that cover crop. And so, in a lot of cases, I think, you know, our cover crop goals will be managing water. This year, we want to get some of that subsoil moisture out of the profile so that we can allow the whatever snowpack we get to refill it and hopefully take care of some of the excess moisture. But I think reducing erosion is another major goal. And I just saw some pictures. I think Naim might have seen them too. I can't remember, but they were from just north of us. And there was there was soil in the ditch. I mean, just dunes of soil blown into the ditch from from all this wind and uncovered fields. So I think getting fields covered is going to be a major, a major goal for a lot of people. Weed management, breaking compaction, improving the seed bed, creating a living soil. All those things are important because we're not going to have a cash crop on it this year, so we need to replace that cash crop with something like a cover crop. To pick your mix, I usually pick by the roots on the plants because that's where I'm most interested. But I think above ground biomass is also an important consideration. I do like some of these things like dwarf Essex Rape seed. I like radish. I like flax. There's a lot of favorites that I have, but I want people to be aware. And this is something we've talked about on these calls that if you have canola in rotation, you should not be using brassicas like Rape seed, turnip, or radish because of the club root concerns. So if you have canola, just don't use those other brassicas because they can be hosts. And it's the same with things. They're hosts for soybeans and nematode as well. So if you have severe pressures in soybeans and nematode, you need to stay away from several different cover crops like, I think it was turnips and hairy vetch, which we want you to stay away from hairy vetch anyways. So there are other, we have lists of those, and maybe I'll talk about them here in a couple of slides. If the, this was PP from last year that was going to be grazed after September 1st, when they pushed that deadline up, we don't anticipate that deadline moving from November 1st. So Kevin Sedovic and Miranda Meehan have actually just put out a nice article on cover crop mixes that could be grazed after November 1st and some ideas there. I retweeted it yesterday, but I can also find, find a link to it and post it on the NDSU Soil Health webpage where we have a prevented plant tab or button you can push to get all this information. So I'll link that on there as well. If you are going to go to corn in 2021, just make sure you don't use only radish and turnip in your mix. It may seem easy because you could broadcast it and use some kind of vertical tillage to get some soil over it, but you need something mycorrhizal in there, which could be a legume, but it could also, it just throwing it oats or barley or something simple can really help keep that mycorrhizal going to avoid issues with phosphorus uptake in your corn. You need to kind of prime the soil with the, with the mycorrhizal and keep them going and living so that when you plant corn next year, you don't have issues. Here's another example of a mix. This was not prevented plant, but it was, it was a field that they were going to graze and they did graze. This is, so I wanted to show this because it has sorghum in it, which is a really, is a great warm season option for drying out wet soils. So as we're getting later in the planting season for cover crops on PP, we really need to consider that warm season grass component for effective competition with weeds and growth as well. So Maricel has done quite a bit of work in this area and, you know, two pounds an acre is usually enough, so especially is enough when to put in a mix. So, so keep that in mind as an option. It does put on a lot of biomass. So if you feel like, like this level of biomass is going to make you uncomfortable, then you need to pick maybe a millet or something different as a warm season grass in the mix. Here's a figure from some work we had done at the end of a field. We had these small plots out there where we seeded different cover crop mixes and then we put in some individual species just so we could learn and see what those cover crops do and how they look. And so, and we also had some bear plots in that, in that trial. And so this is all replicated. But here, this light blue line is the bear soil. And that's where we just kept it kept a bear all year. And then we measured moisture content at the end of the end of the season. And so the one thing that stands out to me. And actually, it's the sorry, all these other ones are cover crop mixes where we planted some kind of cover crop. What stands out to me is this moisture bulge right below the surface where we're not, we're not evaporating that water and it's not draining into the soil. And so we're left with this kind of pudding type soil consistency right below the surface. And I think that's what's, what's hurt us this year. Also is that having that layer there that's retaining moisture where it's not evaporating because it's too, too deep in the profile, but it's also not draining because maybe the infiltration or, or something is not allowing that water to move. But when we use a cover crop and we introduce roots and plants to the system, we can transpire that water and start moving that bulge away and getting the soil profile dried evenly. And so this green line here is a, is our most diverse mix where we had cereal ride, dwarf physics, rapeseed, sugarbeets, sunflowers, peas, flax. So you can see probably all those different rooting depths and types of roots and water use requirements for those plants are helping dry that profile out. So if you can use a diverse mix, if there's some other constraints that don't allow you to use a diverse mix, we'll talk about those in a minute. Of course, for nitrate capture, you can see how on the bare soil, this light blue line again, we have excess nitrogen in the system. But here with the cover crops, we've captured that nitrate in and it's held within the biomass. Now, we don't know when that's released and probably not for the next year's crop, but we do know that it is held within the system and not in excess. And then when you go to plant into it, this is from, you know, December 31st of 2014, must have been when we had these plots. This is how the cover crop residue looks. And to me, that's not, not very scary because you compare it to what the barley residue is over here. And to me, it looks pretty similar. So people are concerned about residue. These cover crops decompose best one left in the soil. And you can see that it has excellent ground coverage to reduce erosion over the winter as well. One of the worst things I think you can do is work up a full season cover crop. And so this is an example where that cover crop, I think they ran some kind of chisel plot through it. And you can see the radish and turnips are just laying on the surface. And they're not going to decompose as well on the surface as they would in the soil. So the best thing is just to leave it intact, don't chunk it up or bring it up to the surface and plant right into it the next year. So the idea of whether you use a mix or a monoculture, I think it really depends on your goals for the field and some of the existing like weed pressures that you have or conditions that you have that you that you think you get a better stand with the monoculture. Maybe you're you're able to use a mix. So I think the first tip is really to start with a weed free field. So repair any roots, do any ditching, get the field condition so that it's ready to go for next year before you plant a cover crop. And here this farmer didn't have really intense weed pressure. So he planted a diverse mix of radish, turnip, sunflower, oats and peas. He got great coverage, twenty eight pounds per acre, twenty bucks an acre. I think you can play with your mixes and adjust them to get them to the price that you want for those mixes. But always start with a clean field. And then here's that same farmer had another field where he had some pretty intense weed pressure. So he just seeded cereal rye, which he could use winter wheat. You could use another, you know, just you could use oats. You could use oats plus millet, something that's just a grass in there. And then, you know, consider using a mixes. And then you still have a herbicide option to spray that field midseason. So this was ten bucks an acre. What he did, it worked really well. He was happy to see it sort of it did survive the winter and it looked pretty good the next the next spring and continued to use moisture. If you're going to seed a cover crop that has potential to put ahead on it, you may want to you may want to spray it out before that happens. Number one, that keeps the the material maybe easier to plant into. If we're starting to get dry, you may want to spray it out. It also will keep the from producing seed. So that may be an option. So just keep that in your in your mind is something you may want to do. And then something from Andrew Friskop that we actually just put on the the Solicent's Field Check podcast where Andrew Friskop answered a question about using something like barley or oats or what should be used as a cover crop on PP this year, if going to wheat or barley next year. And, you know, oats are more favorable for him and that because they can get scab, but they're not a great host. Some root routes are possible, but it's a pretty low risk when using oats prior to wheat or barley. But he did say, don't limit yourself on what you're going to plant. This year based on what you want to do next year, because if you have salts in the field and you need to put barley out there, the best thing you can do is manage those salts with that barley and then and then figure out how you're going to manage the potential diseases next year in your crop. So that's what I have for for some background info and just to get us thinking. And I see we've had a few more people join the call, which is great. We've got a question already, which is good from from Reed. And has anyone planted or tried guar as a cover crop this far north? I know it won't produce seed as it originates farther south, but it acts like a cowpea or buckwheat looking for more diversity and sandy drought like soils. I've heard a little bit about it. I don't know, Marisol, do you have an experience with that or? Yeah, but it also has grown several times in our stations, but mainly trying to see if we can get seed with some of the early varieties. But we haven't grown as a cover crop, but like you said, this is it's just like a cowpea. It's going to behave very similarly to cowpea. So some years we were able to produce seed of guar in our region, but most years, like you said, it won't. But, you know, it's a legion and everything else is a warm season. It's just like you have a soybean or I mean a cowpea or or a forest soybean or something like that. But never as a cover crop. I know I haven't tried or haven't tried or makes a seed. I'm guessing with that, we need a specific inoculum also like Sun Hempwood or any other other legium. Yeah, I'm not sure which is the specific one because it's a different it's in a different genus, but the plant looks a lot like a cowpea. I think that it would be a good option because if the objective is not to get the seed and it's a warm season plant, it's a legium. It would add diversity, depending upon the price, though, if it is super expensive, you know, obviously, then then we have other choices. But I personally think but I would plant it as soon as possible because it's it's susceptible to frost. Yes. So. Yeah. So if you want to get good vegetative growth out of it, plant it as soon as you can. I wonder if I just saw on Twitter, somebody in South Dakota had planted it, maybe in their 60 inch cornrow spacing or I think that somebody down there is playing with it. Maybe Brian Jorgensen or somebody like that is put that in a mix. Reid, do you know if you've got cover crop companies already selling wire seed for cover crop? Are they offering it as a cover crop? I don't know that is why I'm asking. I don't know. Chris, do you know? Chris, maybe on the road again, can't unmute. I don't know that, but maybe some, you know, if it's being offered a cover crop and somebody had asked me at one point, it fits maybe a little bit more salt tolerant, which I in general, legumes are not really salt tolerant. Naim, have you heard anything on that? I've read it that it's a little bit salt tolerant, but again, it would be like, for example, you know, a regular alfalfa versus salt tolerant alfalfa, you know, not too much of a difference. But I agree, generally legumes are not that salt tolerant, but maybe it's a little bit more salt tolerant. So then, Reid, what are you, what do you already have in that mix that you want to add diversity to for those sandy drought like soils? Maybe we can come up with some other options. Yeah, OK, so Chris says he's on the road and yes, guars is available. And Chris is with Agassi seed. Yeah, no, I was just looking at just different diversity, not really specific on like absolutely wanting to put it in the mix. But just looking at other options, as I know, far the west you go out of New England, Dickinson area, you get limited to drought like soils and sandy soils and such. So I was originally thinking barley and a few other things with the legumes, but just just just thinking in more more diversity. So Reid, Gore does like a little bit of moisture. So I don't know how much rain you get there. And if you're it does like good drain soils, but if you're dry there and if you have sandy soils and again, but every year is different. I would I would say that if the seed is not that expensive, you should dry it. It seems like a good option. But just keep that in mind that, you know, you guys are a bit drier there and you have sandy soils and it does require some water, you know, especially in the early stages. I actually grew up eating gore, you know. So looking from a different perspective. Is it tasty, Naeem? It is. You have to develop a taste because it is slightly gummy. My dad loved different stuff. And he would ask my mom to cook it, cook that all different vegetables and everything. And some of them I hated as a child. But then you have, you know, I developed my taste, too, I guess depends who is cooking, too. So. Yeah, I'm kind of curious as to if you, well, so if it's if it's set the frost, it would not be a good one if you're going to graze it and I would just be curious if cows like that or if they prefer a cow pee, I guess. Yeah, I wouldn't know about that. But we can find information if you're interested, but like I said, we haven't really tried it, but my guess for what I've seen when it grew, we grew it in prosperies. It's just like a copy. I don't know if it has any other benefits. It has actually the because of the gelling effects they are saying now that it could be used for the fracturing process for the oil. I've heard that some people are using it in Mikey ice cream, actually. Yeah, but that's a seed. So here you have to be seed. Yeah, you have to be the seed. The seed has like a mucilage, you know, like a viscous substance when you put it on water. And so that's what they're talking about. Using and fracking and they're using it on its use in foods. Like you said, it's edible. And a lot of the food industry uses war. If you look at the the label of a lot of products that you eat, I would say half of them are you eat. If you look, it's going to say war gum. So it's a very common industrial food product that are used to thicken sauces and all kinds of products in the food industry. So they say high demand. And I think the US produces some in the South, but mostly of war that's used in the US is imported from India and some some Asian countries. But I know they do produce some in Texas. They do they're producing some some water there, but I don't know the the creature of the mouth. So I'm thinking about cover crops. Maybe I've seen on sandy soils. If anybody else on this call has sandy soils. You know, typically what I've seen on sandy soils would be things like peas, flax. Radish is a pretty high water user, right, Marisol? So that one, if it's drought like you probably don't want radish. Yeah, radish likes water. So yeah, I think in a sandy soil, you probably don't. You want to stay maybe with the grasses in some like shallow rooted broadleafs? I think the grasses will build the most structure in that soil. I mean, with the the way the roots wrap around the soil particles and the fungal hyphae and all that and increased organic matter, I think more efficiently than for for water holding capacity. I've seen some pretty amazing things on sandy soils just by reducing tillage and having something like oats out there or some kind of grass. But maybe being this late, you'd want also, you know, a millet or something in that mix to get some growth. Yeah, I don't know. Warm season use a little bit more of water, but I don't know. But I think if you have oats, it's good. And maybe, you know, bees, bees will don't use much water. It's something that might work, too. I like the idea of mixing legume, you know, which would not require a lot of water because then it will help break down the biomass quicker because these sandy soils, you know, we could increase the water holding capacity like in two, three years if we tried different things. The cover crop makes us the key is what are we planting and how fast that residue can break down to help with that water holding capacity. And then after a couple of years, you know, probably we could get away with planting something different. Certainly, Naim, I think I asked you last week. So up in that northeast corner, I mean, you're at a fine line where you need residue cover to reduce erosion, but you also don't want too much residue because you need to have the soils warm up and get implanted. So what would your ideal mix look? Say you've got a, the field was harvested, the crop is off of it, obviously, and that happened maybe earlier. So it's had a little time to dry out. Obviously couldn't be planted to the cash crop they wanted. What would be your kind of ideal mix that you would go for? What would be the questions you ask for that field before you pick a mix? So number one question I would ask, like, does these areas have any salt issues? You know, a little bit of salt would be okay because barley notes, I like them and they are quite salt tolerant. But like I said, like the biggest concern of the producers here is, would this residue break down? Would I be having any issues during next spring? So I would go with barley notes and then I would have forage peas as a legume to bring the CN ratio to a level where most of the residue is broken down. And we don't have a lot of livestock here. So, you know, people may want to chop the residue, you know, so that it has more contact with the soil. And yesterday I was discussing this with another producer. So if that's a pee pee field, then I suggested actually a couple pounds of sorghum to done grass and Marisol answered my question even when she was on vacation. I asked her, would that residue be a problem for the farmer come 2021? And she said, as long as you use two pounds per acre, it shouldn't be a problem. So it depends how much money we want to spend, but barley and oats, you could either pick one of them or you could just have both just reduce the seed rate. So roughly you should cost you roughly the same amount of money, field peas and two pounds of sorghum to done grass. If the spots are high for salt, then I would like to go with wheat too. And again, we discussed that I think Marisol, you said that as long as what was two pounds, I thank you, two pounds, then the beets should melt and... It's not gonna be a problem, you know, the problem with residue from like sorghum or sorghum to the end happens if you have like a full stand and then it's when it freezes and you know, dries, it's kind of like corn storage, you know, it's a hard material, but if you have two pounds, you're not gonna have a lot of that storage. It's gonna get mixed and it's not gonna be a problem. I really don't think it's gonna be a problem. At least our plots where we have the two pounds, make sure you don't see an excess residue on them. So even though like barley and oats and sugar beets would work on salty areas, but I think even on good areas, they're good crops. They're good crops, so with beets you have, people can plant radishes too. And around here we have more water, but then we have club root issue. So if you have canola in rotation, you wanna avoid all brassicas. So that would be the ideal mix, Abby. And I actually suggested that to a producer yesterday or day before yesterday, we discussed that barley and oats both, two pounds of sorghum, sudan grass, field peas and beets. At most one and a half to two pounds per acre. I think that's a good mix. I've heard there was a farmer last year that had a predominantly barley mix, but he had some radish in there, but he had some areas where he had peas that got established nicely with it and somewhere he didn't get them planted deep enough. And he said the areas that he was planting into the spring where he had the peas, the residue was much more mellow and easier to plant into. So I think that, like you're saying, that legume component can be really, really important for the residue breakdown. The legumes are probably going to be one of the most expensive seeds in the mix. So if, you know, gosh, we need to reduce costs. I don't know if you just reduce the rate of the legume versus totally cutting it out because maybe some is better than none. If we have seed beets in that mix, you know, the beets tops are also very green. So we could probably cut down on the legume seeding rate. But if we do not include beets, then it's basically providing a balanced diet to the microbes to, you know, break down that residue. Because for some producer, they want to plant cover crops, but they are now worried about the girls. And they are saying, oh, you know, I may be late planting my crop next year. So that's a big concern for some people. So I think that's a good point because I'm sure there's quite a few people that are concerned about, you know, last year they had crop residue in the field and then they had to plant into that this spring and maybe it didn't go as well as people had hoped. I mean, I think there's a lot of stuff that was mudded in that probably whether you had residue or not, probably wasn't gonna turn out very well. But I think that cover crop residue because of the diversity in some of those mixes, I think that residue is much different to plant into you, I think then like corn residue or something from the prior year. Corn or even sometimes wheat. So yeah, I think this is an important point to, you know, separate that if you just have residue, which is very high for carbon, but very low nitrogen, it's gonna take a long time for it to break down and that may cause you some problems during the planting time. Yeah, so if anyone's concerned about what it was like planting into a crop residue versus what it might be like planting into a cover crop residue, I think it will be a very different experience for you. And I see Joe Eichle's on now, he must be done spraying his plots. Are you still in the field, Joe? No, we got things started but it's gonna be a long day, so I had to break off. Well, we haven't had any weed questions yet, which is just good. Does anybody have any weed questions for Joe? I'll go back to you. I did, so okay, so Joe, I drove, I had to drive a kid home yesterday that was over playing with my son and I drove by a ton of fields that have very large weeds in them. Mainly fields that were corn that just got harvested about a week or two ago and the weeds were huge. So what are you thinking on those fields? Because I mean, somebody's gonna plant a cover crop on them but we need to get those weeds under control first. At this point, and I mean, especially with being in Cass County, I'm guessing they're gonna be conventional tillage, and tillage would really be the best option at this point with how large some of the weeds are and also a bunch of them are starting to flower and herbicides won't be as effective on flowering weeds whereas tillage will still be very effective. So, for those fields, it's really to the point of tillage being the best option that we have with those really large weeds. And some of them I noticed were actually horseweed or maristail, which is typically more problematic in no till but I've seen a lot of these standing corn fields that being in there and I automatically assume glyphosate resistance with horseweed. And then that leaves us with not any good options on 12 inch or taller horseweed except for tillage being the best one. Your favorite word. Well, like you said though, if the system is already full tillage, then yeah, don't be trying to go no till on a field with a bunch of weeds and residue that's not managed. I mean, that would not be the success rate I think would be very low. So unless people are looking for a reason to say no till doesn't work, but I mean, that would be the ideal situation to go into and try to no till to make it not work. So yeah, take care of the fields first and get the weeds under control. I would also do a good job preparing the seed bed for cover crop that they chose to go that route. What I'm hoping is not to see fields. There's a bunch of fields that's all last year that weren't touched for another month yet. We weren't touched until the end of July and then the seed production, weed seed production in those fields was quite high before they got worked the first time. But last year was a bit, well, we were just entering the wet spell at this point last year, but I know that had a lot to do with it, all the rain in late June and July that we had. So are you seeing a lot of those problems carrying over into this year as far as weed pressures where they still can't get them under control or? Some what in PP fields and also another field that just had a lot of water hemp last year, the water hemp pressure this year is just outrageous. And it was very wet summer is good for water hemp. So it just was a problem last year and then the seed production is showing this year on that one in particular. Okay, so people that may, even on non-PP fields are gonna be dealing with water hemp pressure and what have you been recommending for that? Just cause I'm curious. It depends on the crop and we still have, we have plenty of options, especially if you're in one of the newer traded soybeans. It's really kind of crop dependent. It's really, we've got some overall recommendations for extend soybean or enlist soybean or corn or even wheat. We typically don't think of it as a problem in wheat or small grains, but by the time we got planting the small grains in the areas of the state that also have water hemp, water hemp was already up. So we have a couple of options there as well. But it's just aggressive this year. So it seems like it's taken two passes in each field to actually get water hemp fully under control to this point. Yeah, somewhat of a quiet group today. So I just wanna quickly add a point that the importance of planting cover crops on PP acres. I remember last year, the way the weather was here around Langdon, we were very dry until July 29th and from July 30th or 31st, we started getting rain. And the reason we are having these PP acres, a lot of PP acres in Cavalier County too, because of the wet fall. So if we have a cover crop growing and if we again have the same kind of a weather, that growing cover crop can use up that moisture because weather can change very quickly. And I know Franzen always talks about how a PP fields, if it doesn't get something on it this year could be a PP field or the chance is highly like it'll be PP again next year. So I know it may not feel like it sometimes because the surface is so dry right now. So I'm kind of wondering too, if we see these cover crops on a field, we know that seeding is actually using a drill is gonna be the best way to establish them. If the surface is so dry and then the soil underneath is still pretty wet, how long will it take for that cover crop to establish? And is it worth it planting it a little bit deeper? I mean, some of that like radish, you wouldn't wanna plant radish deeper, I don't think. The new situations, but. Yep, we can hear you. Yakima, Washington, and popyards that are using cover crops. And I was talking to the farmer yesterday and trying to understand a little bit more of their system. So in the system, we have sandy soils, the clays are pretty much gone, blown out because we have tons of wind. Then you have the other thing of irrigation here. The water just moves the soil. Two different types of those I can't remember. So with his goal, he was trying to try to build our organic matter to then be able to move the ideas on. And it kind of goes back to that sandy question. So this is just me an observation of a minute. It's really cool to see cover crops there because or between the rows and hops, and it's really puffy. Or I'll share those options, make it really hard to continuously walk in a hop. So this isn't for hops, but what I saw last year was some hemp that was being grown and they put tep grass between the rows. And I don't know, Marisol does tep do okay on sandy soils or is it, does it like a little more moisture? I think it requires moisture, but I'm not sure, I'm not sure about it because they've been growing, you know, so hemp and in a heading there. So I'm not sure how tall it is, but yeah, I guess it could be used. I don't see why not. Because I could see that there's the same kind of system where you have these wide rows between that you're walking on and whatever on, between the hops rows or between hemp or something like that. Yeah, good question. And this is just a brainstorm question. Nothing, you know, immediate, I was just observing things. Yeah, I do, I mean, I do think on sandy soils, flax is another option that could be used. So like lentils and things like that, if somebody wants to try some lentils, like sandier soils, I think, I've never had luck with them, but that's because I work mostly on these high clay soils. So I think that, I was just saying that you mentioned field peas and buckwheat. If you want to have more high carbon crop, then you may want to go with, say, oats or barley. Barley do not require a lot of water. That's why it's salt tolerant. And so it would also be a suitable crop on sandy soils. And it's very high in carbon. So if you compliment that with the peas, I think that would be, I personally think that if you want to build organic matter, you have to have a balance between the carbon and nitrogen. Too much carbon would not be good because it's going to take a long time for the residue to break down. Too much nitrogen would also not be good. And it'll just break down very quickly, especially in that weather you have, slightly drier and warmer weather. But if you have a good mix, and it will take time for organic material to turn into organic matter, but you will see some benefits of adopting those practices. And I think you should be able to see that in two, three years depending upon the year and the growth of the cover crop. But barley would be a crop I would recommend on sandy soils, along with the peas you're already having in that mix. Yeah, it sounds good. I was just trying to learn from what the farmer was also saying, it sounds like it's pretty much on track with some oats and barley as well. So thank you, I was just very curious. I have a question for Joe. Yeah, can you hear, it's Kim Ratzloff down here in North Central South Dakota. Couple of scenarios. We seem to have a lot of people obviously trying to keep it cheap. So going to soybeans next year, we're planting a winter cereal like rye or triticali. And we have tremendous water hemp pressures. I'm not concerned in so much, once the stand gets established and it gets out here a month and a half from now, but for the next month and a half, what options do we have for controlling the residualized water hemp in those crops? Yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, in general, some of those cereals, even though it's not labeled, you could get away with putting on any of those group 15 herbicides, such as dual warrant or outlook. Zidua would be the most risky as far as injury to that type of crop. Yeah, and as far as burning down what's there, we can use the growth regulators such as 2, 4D or dicamba. There is a plant-back restriction for some of the small grains, but in general, we haven't seen injury as far as establishment. So again, one of those labeled things, if you're taking it to yield, then we have to follow that plant-back restriction, but I generally wouldn't expect injury for just getting them established in the cover crop type of situation. And like I said, if you wanted to burn them down with something like gramoxone or one of those growth regulators, get at least one of the group 15s out there that will hold back the water hemp somewhat before you get the plant established. And with generics we have of all of those products, I've just mentioned that they can keep relatively cheap as well. So maybe I didn't realize warrant would work. That's our plan on our legumes that'll be going to corn next year is laying down warrant with the burn down. So back to the winter cereals, we could stay fairly inexpensive with just a, now the warrant, would that have to be on pre-emerge? Yes, it will not control any emerged water hemp, but the, I meant pre-emerge on the rye, or the rye cereals. It could be pre-emerge or post-emerge. If you had it really close to planting, you might see some injury, but I would expect the rye to still come through that and become established. Okay, well, yeah, that way we can maybe do something expensive like a 2-4-D or small amount of Banville for the existing water hemp control and then add the warrant. And it wouldn't be critical to get it on prior to emergency if weather would hold us out. Correct, yes. All right, okay, that's good. The other question I have is we're starting to use more, starting a program in the fall to put our MTZ down or 30 MTZ ahead of the soybeans in the late fall. I call it Halloween application type of thing. It works really well in the spring. And then we're also throwing on a little bit of roundup in 2-4-D for the winter annuals like Pocchial, Barley and Maristail and all the small seedlings, broad-leaf seedlings, you get started in the corn stalks late in the fall. Do you see any problem? Well, obviously we wouldn't be able to do in the roundup or the 2-4-D that late. So that would be a problem as far as getting ourselves, well, we wouldn't have a weed problem, we wouldn't have a fall annual weed problem if we had rye out there, but we would just need to put our MTZ down for the next spring. And yeah, we would have to. Might still be some weeds there, but one benefits having a cereal cover crop is if you have some broad-leaf weed, you can use 2-4-D or dicamba late fall and it'll kind of take out the weeds that are there and then the cereal rye will suppress weeds into the spring as well. Right, right, but I still want to put the MTZ down then because depending on what we do in the spring, if it's a dry winter and spring, we would want to terminate the winter cereal early and we wouldn't have the competition in the spring. So we'd still like to, I think, put our 30 MTZ down late fall there too with some 2-4-D and just do the roundabout on that cereal. And the biggest question in my mind would be how much of that authority MTZ will be tied up in the cover crop because some will be intercepted and be absorbed. I wouldn't expect a lot of growth so a lot will still hit the soil. It's just something I keep an eye on in the spring when weeds may start breaking a little bit earlier but also with the cover there, I think it may end up being similar to what you would expect anyways, but... Well, we probably would have a lot of growth because they're planting the rye and triticale right now. Now that's another question. Is that to anyone? Is the reason we're getting in there is because these areas have dried up and we don't know how long they'll stay dry. So we're figuring, well, let's get in and we can do what we need to do to hold them down if they get to be too much or just terminate them. Is it a mistake to be planting the winter cereals this early? I don't know. The winter cereals that I saw planted mid-year last year did fine. They just stay really low to the ground and they were fine. I don't know how well they did the next spring as far as growth. They may have lost some of it over winter with planting them that early, but I don't know, Marisol, have you or Naeem seen any disadvantage? I haven't. I haven't seen that. Any problem? You hear much talk about triticale and they need to see the drainage over the rye. In fact, the rye doesn't get so tall in the spring as it matures. I don't know if that matters, but I suppose it does for your residue if you're planting. Well, beans usually don't mind as much as corn does to that kind of competition. Yeah, I think triticale is more expensive than winter rye or cereal rye. So I guess I only see triticale being used where it's gonna be grazed the next spring because it gives you a little bit more of a window before it really takes off with growth, I think, than versus cereal rye. At least that's what I remember Kevin Sedevic talking about. So I don't know. It's all about quality. It's very forage quality than cereal rye. Right, and that's actually why the seed sales and selling it down here is because, and I just noticed and they're in your webinar here that you mentioned you don't think there's gonna be a September one. They're counting on a September one instead of my number one and then being able to take it off. But if they don't get that, then they're gonna have definitely a lot more growth, I'm guessing from what I read. It's about six and a half dollars of bushel and they're planting about a bushel, I think. What is the seeding rate on rye for this type of scenario? I mean, I guess what we've been doing is 40 pounds mid summer. I think you could go higher. We're starting to learn that the rates that we're using in the southern part of North Dakota are much lower than what we're using in the northern part of North Dakota. Right. So for example, even just on interseeding, we can get away with 40 pounds of rye interseeded in New York Horn down, you know, in the North Dakota, South Dakota border, but up North, we're gonna be doing 60. Yeah, South Dakota, I think you guys could be fairly low in your rates. You know, it just depends on how many plants you want established. Cause I guess I do see a difference in Marisol. I don't know if this is real or not, I guess. But, you know, when you have the lighter seeding rates, you get more of like it branches out and does this kind of thing versus if you have a higher seeding rate, you just get more little individual plants. That's right. You know, serials do that, you know, it's called a tillering. So you can have more space, you know, over the space with tillers. Yeah, and some farmers says they like a higher raise because then they get a straight one stem plant, you know, with no much tillering. So you have, it's easier to plant in it by getting these big, you know, wide kind of plants on its own. But it's up to you what you want to do. But I've heard farmers say that they like the seeding rates. So the plants stay individually, they're not huge plants. The same for Tritigale, the same for all these serials. They all have the tiller inability. So low rates is going to produce a much wider and larger plant with many tillers. I have one other question. Well, I have one quick one for Joe, but first I want to continue on the winter versus annual serials. It seems to myself and us down here that we want something that we have the option of working for us next spring if we continue to be wet. And that's why we're choosing the winter serials. The annuals, obviously we're going to have to stop and stop at a certain time before they had didn't get too much carbon. What is the, I hear you all talking a lot more about barley and oats rather than winter serials. Why is that? Well, the reason I want to talk about barley and oats when you're going to have corn next year, rye can become a problem, right? Because there's several research that demonstrate they could reduce corn. So you want an annual crop that will winter kill. Different situations. If you are interested in grazing late in the fall, you know, depends when you plant, you're going to have a lot of forage there. You know, if it's a BP situation, you're going to use it November 1st. If you plant too early, of course the annuals serials are going to be all headed with seeds in it, so. Right, yeah. And we're only planting our winter serials on that which is going to soybeans next year. And we're planting a, I've understood. Well, we have a problem with winter serials. I think Abby really likes rye and winter triticale where it works. It doesn't work here in Eastern North Dakota, winter triticale doesn't survive most years. That's why we don't use it. But we do use winter serial rye and Abby loves it before soybean. So how far south do you think you'd have to get? Well, we're not much more than south in the North Dakota line. So maybe our triticale isn't going to survive either. Well, winter triticale is the eastern part of the states where we have the clay soils and the combination of really low temperatures that I, you know, most years doesn't survive. But in Western North Dakota, winter triticale, that's fine. So it's not only the south to North line. So if you are a little bit more to the center, winter triticale might work. It's just, I think in the Red River Valley we have conditions that they're very harsh for winter crops. And we get a lot of, even a half a winter killed because of the, you know, there's many conditions they get together that kill plants. And that includes the heavy soils tend to accumulate a lot of water. And in the spring that forms ice, you know, when you get the melt of the snow forms ice on the surface and ice is what it really kills plants. This year I got pretty much every cover crop that I never survived before this year because we had the snow fell before the cold temperatures which is not common. So this year I saw winter triticale didn't have a problem even winter peas survived, hairy veg. But that's, in the 10 years I've been working with cover crops, this is the first years I see that in the Red River Valley. But if you are outside the Red River Valley your conditions are different. You are in more sandy soils, chances of ice cheating are much less. So, and that's the main reason plants get winter kill. All right, thank you. Well, one more quick question for Joanne and I'll leave others. Yes, absolutely. Joanne, going to a, so we're going to our corner grass crops here we're using trying to keep it cheap with soybeans, possibly field peas and maybe sunflowers. Well, what is, and I haven't looked at the lead from a guy who just thought about it now. How will sunflowers and peas handle warrant? I would expect you might get some injury but I wouldn't expect them to be killed off. So it's another one of those things where it's not labeled for those crops because the injury concerned if you were to spray it on the actual crop and, but I wouldn't expect them to actually kill anything. So maybe, maybe a little bit of stunting but they'd eventually grow out of it. All right, well, and that's maybe not all bad because, you know, instead of, we'd like to go with just plain beans but I don't think we can go with a single crop. So we were talking about while if we throw a little bit of field peas in there and have some roundup beans that we are using if we have to spray some weeds out later, we just accidentally forget that we had field peas in there but this would be better way to handle it than as far as a residual because, you know, we're just not going to have any competition, you know, probably all fall because they'll be planting them with 30 inch planters and the weed concerns are for me are, you know, significant. So, thanks, yep. So I see another question came up in the chat box from Reed about what kind of legume or vetch would overwinter and grow and winter rye in the spring to be in central, South Dakota. I'm just not a fan of hairy vetch. So I would stay away from, I would just stay away from vetches in general. I've used common vetch before and it's been okay as a full season but hairy vetch, I stay clear of hairy vetch. So maybe is there a legume that would overwinter? We're using some red clover, right, Marisol, to see if that has the highest chance. Depends on the reason why you want it in there. Your red clover will survive. So you just want it, but it's not going to grow much. We haven't had much luck with clovers because they are very small percent of the mix but in South Dakota you might be able to get a better stand, right, competitive. And so when you put a clover with a rye, the rye wins. But red clover will survive the winter. You could also use, and I've seen some farmers using like cheap alfalfa seeds, like an old vernal alfalfa, that it costs a lot less than the varieties for alfalfa. And yeah, that's pretty much the only thing you'll survive here, which my survivor, like Abby said, if he sets seeds, you'll have here, which for life and you don't want that. So because they have dormancy and that's the reason we really don't like it because we can, you can have that problem. And legumes, clovers with red clover, alfalfa, some people use a sweet clover. Those are would be options. The answer to your question, Reed. I guess, you know, if you're looking for diversity, you know, if that's kind of what you're thinking, I mean, the work we're doing with winter camelina Marisol would maybe be an option to get, you know, it's, it's a Brassica, right? So it's, but it, but it does over winter. But you wouldn't want to see the winter camelina now. I mean, that would be, that's too early. You have to wait till October. Yeah, winter camelina is something we've been testing in our projects and it's a good alternative, especially if you're going to have corn next year, but you cannot plant it before September 1st because camelina loses the winter hardiness if you plant it when it's hot in the summer. So you need to only plant it, you know, either areally seeded or plant, drill it after wheat, but in September. You can plant it even until first week of October and they also ride the winter. But I, you know, it won't fix nitrogen. And so it's not, you know, not a legume and, but it has other advantages. And our main reason that we're interested is if we could use it before corn, you know, to avoid the problems that we can have with rye. Thank you. So my situation is get a farm central South Dakota that has high, high amounts of carbon to nitrogen. So I was looking at trying to put, I guess more, more of a legume or something to break down some of that carbon. It's just been corn on corn on milo on millet and et cetera. But it also has high amounts of wheat pressure too. So that's why I was thinking rye with some sort of other, something to break down a little bit more of that carbon come springtime, going back in with another high carbon product, I guess. Yeah, so are you in PP? That means you're gonna have a PP to plant something in the summer now, rye and maybe clovers, or you are planting these after your cash crop this year? It's currently corn right now, which it's still early enough you could intercede, which kind of thinking about right now. Yeah, see the problem with corn, you will have to, yeah, the clovers don't do good. Red clover does not good on the shade. We've tried that and we lose most of it. It's not a very tolerant to shade. So, but if you maybe are really spread it onto corn, later season, you'll be able to get some plants and you might have some of the correct clover in the following season, but it is hard. We're trying intercropping of legumes into corn, but in 30-inch corn, what we find now, because this is where we want it to happen, we want it to be able to put some nitrogen and so we intercede the fava beans and all kinds of other stuff, but most legumes are not tolerant to shade. And so rye does actually pretty good and rye grass does pretty good on the corn, but legumes don't, unfortunately. And that's why this whole movement of the 60-inch corn, because 60-inch corn does allow you to grow other legumes to put some nitrogen back into your system. You know, if you are mainly high-carbon crops, you know, corn or milo or wheat, and it's a good idea in the rotation to maybe have this new system. That's why I think a lot of people are trying it because they know, we already find out we've done all their first possibles to do interceding of the six that hasn't worked for the broadleafs very well. Yeah, and these are an older planter, so everything's on 38s, so it is a little wider. Yeah, so you might have, maybe you can spread the clovers. You have more light coming into the rows, so you might have maybe more possibilities to get those plants established at a wider row. Thanks. Yeah, Gabby, anything else you want to add to that? No, I think having that a little bit wider row would help with establishing some of these, and I guess we don't know, I mean. So if you just try with a six-inch, and we did a lot of interceding with 30-inch, and unfortunately we have to say that broadleafs do not do good, especially legumes, into 30-inch corn. Now 38 inches, it will be better, but how better it is? The problem is the crops under the shade of corn, they're very weak, and so you happen to get a couple weeks of really hot weather and dry, they're actually gonna die because of drought, right? So you got already plants that have been weakened because of the shade, and so the combination of that, we've seen plants that look beautiful and they look really good under the canopy, but then you get a couple weeks of dry period, and then they'll dry, they'll die. But you can try, maybe you can try a few passes or rows and put some clover, you have better chances to do that, to get that established in your corn. That's it, let us know how it goes. I mean, we're doing some clovers, I'm breathing, that's the way we learn, just trying stuff. To be honest with you, corn and corn is, I don't wanna say this, but I'm gonna say this, it's not really good, if you wanna break down that cycle, you have to kind of like change your rotation a little bit, to let the whatever legume you wanna plant to let it flourish a bit and not just add the nitrogen but produce some biomass. One drastic suggestion, which is slightly away from what we preach, is that you could also, if your cover crop or legumes are not doing good, you may wanna apply some nitrogen through fertilizers. We are trying some demos here, litter-back demos here, there we add urea to say, wheat is straw, put it on the surface and bury the bags in the ground, as well as put some litter bags on top of the soil without adding any urea, and we are finding out, like for a couple months in different crops, we are finding out that you lose, residue is breaking down quicker. I don't like that way, because it's not natural, but to be honest with you, if you have corn on corn and corn, if you artificially add nitrogen to the soil, that may help you to break down that corn residue. And I quickly wanted to, I don't know whether Kim is still on the call. He was asking about, I think he, oh, he's still there. So he was asking about why we- I think that's different Kim, the one Kim left. Oh, okay, okay. Well, I don't know whether that would be worth it. I'm just gonna say this so that other people can listen. So he was saying that, why are we promoting barley nodes? I think they're fibrous root plants. They grow well on a variety of soils. And another thing that I personally think people are worried about is spring. I think that a vet fall contributes more towards a vet spring. So even if we have something which will not survive over winter, but if we have something good growing on the soil, and if we have a vet fall, and those plants can use up some water, chances are that we won't have a lot of issues in this spring. Hi, this is Kim, can you hear me? Yep. Yeah, I just switched to my phone to the mobile. So you're the same Kim? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, were you able to, yeah, go ahead. And of course, a lot of the edges of our PPs are along cattail draws, et cetera, that will have those types of, and I thought about that right away, and you mentioned barley, of course. And that's another reason we were talking about sunflowers is trying to find something that's readily available and expensively down here in South Dakota, but can also handle those areas that are more often in the PP areas. So that's a good point. Barley would be more salt tolerant Kim than even sunflowers, even orcs would be more salt tolerant. So this is another reason we like these crops, but I would again say that we would like to see a legume in that, to Reed's point, we want that residue to break down because it will then ultimately go into the organic matter pool. Plus, it will not cause any issues for you when you're trying to plant your crops in the spring. I give more importance, the vetist springs I've seen here in Langdon, and if you check the weather, we are a bit colder than all of the areas around us. And we have had some very vet falls. I think fall contributes more if we have some challenges next to spring. If you could manage your water, excess water during the fall, most often you will not have any major issues during the spring, next to spring. Okay, what other questions? We have about 15 minutes left. Does anybody have a field they want to put out there? It's just a scenario for what could be done if you just tell us what crop was on there last year, what you want to go to next year, and maybe what the soil type is and probably where you are is helpful to us, whether you just say northeast corner of North Dakota or southeast corner. Abby, can you hear me? Yep. Yeah, I'm actually a little farther. I'm in South Western Ontario. So I'm not quite in your corner, but I do have a question on some cover crops after winter wheat. We'll be harvesting here in about a month or three weeks. And so it is under-seated with double cut red clover, but we had a lot of rain last fall. I've got some pretty bad water erosion through some of the spots that I like to fix, but then I'd also like to reseed it with a cover crop to hold it together for the fall. And just wondering if there's anything that I guess would compliment, I guess, either the red clover or something that I should stay away from. It's going into corn next year. So I typically use the nitrogen credit from the clover to help with the corn. And I don't know if trying to seed down red clover again in the spots that I fix is going to work like we normally frost seeded in the spring. So I guess I've never seeded red clover this late in the year in the summer. I didn't know it. So I wonder, so is Dan Petker kind of by you? You've seen him on Twitter and stuff. Because I think he was telling me that he does a clover buckwheat mix. And so I don't know if you go in those patches with buckwheat just because it grows so quickly if that would be beneficial. I'm gonna have Marisol weigh in on this too because I know a lot of things work for you guys that don't work up here. Okay, sorry, I missed your question. What was it? Paul, were you asking? Is there anything that complements a double cut red clover under seeding in winter wheat in areas that I'm gonna rip out to fix some water erosion that I had last fall? Yeah, okay. Overseeding clover is a practice that actually over wheat that it's been done. It's a really old practice. It came out of the Sweden and Norway. They do that a lot in wheat to protect their soils from your old clover. So I know some people have done it in Minnesota too. I don't have experience and I haven't tried. I know a lot of researchers in the character station try an experiment to try to oversee clover onto wheat. So you have a green clover when you harvest the wheat. And your area, I think it should work. I don't see why not. It just depends on moisture. If you don't have enough moisture to get the clover going, you might lose it. That's all. So this is a small seed that I saw. I've been in Sweden and I've seen that practice and for them it works really well but they get a lot of rain too. They never have like these dry spells. So it is a way to get the clover going. So they do use red clover mainly to do that. So it sounds like Paul, you already have the clover established under there. He's just gonna go in and repair some damaged parts of the field. So probably wants to reseed in some of those areas to your repairs. So could we seed red clover that late? Or it'll be in what, three or four weeks that you'll do that? Yeah. Yeah, you can reseed the clover. There's no problem with a little pathway or anything. You can reseed it. You wanna, if you wanted to survive the winter, we should recommend that you at least have six to eight weeks of growth on your clover so make sure it survives. So you won't wanna plant it too late. Usually even for a faffa we say that but about first week of August will be our cutoff date to plant that faffa to make sure it survives the winter. Does that answer your question? Yeah, yep. Typically, yeah, we terminate the clover in early to late fall just so that we're a little heavier tillage than in our area. So. Yeah. Yeah, no. Now buckwheat won't overwinter, will it? It's not. Buckwheat is gonna freeze, right? The freeze is, you know, even 32 is gonna be gone. It's very susceptible. But you grow buckwheat for seed or you're using just the clover crop? No. Well, just that what Addy was talking about, the clover buckwheat mix. Yeah. In those areas, just because buckwheat, she was saying, yeah, the buckwheat being faster growing. Yeah, buckwheat's gonna grow really fast, flower and die very soon. So, and then the clover will be longer there. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. This is the part I really like is trying to figure out what we can do on specific fields and pulling everybody's thoughts together. This is Kim again. Can you hear me? Yep. I just switched to go mobile and I had to figure out how to use my personal hotspot and also I did miss some. I think his name was mentioning to me about putting barley in the mix for the salt tolerance in those low areas and that's a good idea. I guess I wasn't aware that it was just the winter rye that was giving us problems going to corn, theoretically. I assumed it was cereals. At one Minnesota meeting some time ago, we heard that you plant a broadleaf cover crop to a cereal and vice versa. But if that's not the case, for moisture consumption, mainly, there's nothing wrong with growing with it, like a triticale or like you say, a barley or some annual and going into corn also next year to make our program simpler rather than trying to find, do two different things, depending on if it's gonna be corn or beans next year. I guess I'm concerned about planting corn into anything that over winters, mainly because the competition and the nitrogen tie up. One way to possibly get around that and I know quite a few farmers that are in areas that were pretty hard hit with PP this year, they're gonna try just strips of cover crops versus seeding the whole field. So like say you go in with 30 inch row spacing on something like a winter annual and then you plant your corn between those rows. At least that gets it away away from where you're planting the corn. And I think farmers are gonna do that for edible beans, for soybean, for pretty much anything this next year in areas that were pretty hard hit because they're concerned about having that cover crop and the extra residue from the cover crop in the row that they're gonna plant in. So you could almost do a reverse of the bio strips that we talk about where you just plant it between the rows instead of on the row that you're gonna plant on. And maybe you could get away with it in a wet year and that kind of stuff, but that's one thing. If you're pretty set on doing something like a cereal rye, winter triticalia, winter wheat, whatever before corn, I would just try to get it away from the corn rows you're gonna plant into and still terminate prior to planting, if you can. Okay, that brought up, I know we're getting pressed in time here. That brought up one more quick question, fertility-wise, and I don't know if we have anybody on. How do we soil test, especially these cereals that will be harboring a lot of the nitrogen when we're out there, typically October, early November, and doing our zone testing and stuff. How in the world are we going to be able to estimate how much nitrogen to actually go ahead and fertilize this fall or next spring? I mean, you wanna be done so then. Well, you know, Dr. Frantz, and he's not on the call, but he's been doing a lot of work on trying to determine the nutrient cycling of cover crops to the following crop. And in summary, and all these years he's been doing experiments with Abbey in large scale, whatever nitrogen the cover crops take in the fall is not available for the corn next year. You know, that we don't have- I thought that was the concept of, one of the, is to grab it from getting away in the groundwater and storing it in the residue and then it releases, it won't release for like an early cereal like wheat, but I always understood it, even like a regrowth of volunteer wheat in the fall will hold in a nitrogen and it will release it for the corn crop that needs nitrogen in late June, mainly now into, you know, a pollination type period. I'm completely agree with you and we all thought the same. And the books will tell you that, that CN, you know, low CN rate for cover crops will release it, but all the research we've done these last four years, Dr. Frantz has been doing, and this is not only us also in Wisconsin, Mack Dwork has observed and the research data is pretty solid that you do not get the credit that we thought we would be. Wow, where will that be coming from? It will be from the water, it will be in the soil at some point but it's not being released for the next crop. Okay, so have those studies followed them and to find out when they are being released? Well, that's what Dr. Frantz is trying to figure out, where is the nitrogen going, right? Interesting. We don't know much. He has a theory that some of that nitrogen might be getting, you know, absorbed on the clays because we have this smectite clays that kind of, you know, expand when there's our water and the shrink and trap ions like ammonia and potassium and other things. So he's thinking, so he's doing some analysis of non-extractable ammonia and the preliminary data that he got is showing that where there was a cover crop, the levels of non-extractable ammonia, that means not available for the plants was higher. But so that's where the research is leading to try to find out the, where is the nitrogen going that is not showing on the corn? And he always said, Abby, you can correct me. He in the Cafe Talks We Have, he recommends to says, if you are not sure and you're hoping then in some cases it might release it, what you can do is just keep a strip, you know, with less nitrogen, considering some credit from the cover crop. And then you can, if you see that compared to the rest of your corn that you de-fertilized normally, this one looks a lot yellow and deficient. Then you can go and fix that with a split application and add the nitrogen. So you can try, you know, to see what's happening. Did I say it right, Abby? I don't know. Pretty close, Mariska. You're really sounding like a soil scientist, which I love. I'm just repeating what you guys said. Oh, that's great. So Franza would say do the opposite, where you'd have the whole field where you apply, you know, reduced amount of nitrogen, but then you have a strip where you apply the full amount. And then if you see differences and you side dress the other corn. So, so yeah, I think, you know. I'm gonna get hung by a news. If I come here and tell these guys that they need to go side dress their corn next June when we can hardly get our spraying done. Anyway, I understand. And I, but so my question then is what value is our nitrogen cell test this fall on serial cover crops that are planted this time of the year? I mean, where do we know where we are on that curve or that scale of it being, I mean, if it's virtually zero, which it should be by that time because it's gonna have a tremendous amount of growth, we're basically, whereas if we don't plant a cover crop, I know the whole, you know, microbial, mycorrhizae thing, but, you know, back in the summer fall of days it actually accumulated nitrogen. Are we actually, is it costness money by the cereals consuming the nitrogen but not given back to us? Because if it gives it back to us after the corn crop next year, it's of no value because it's gonna be available to the beans the following year and they're just gonna luxury consume. I think it would be some assumptions you could make is that if we have a long fall and you get a lot of growth on the cereals that they will take up more nitrogen so there would be less available. That would be one thing. If it's a shorter fall and less growth then maybe you could assume that there might be a little bit more available but that would be the general, that would be the most I'd step out. I'll probably talk to friends and maybe we have to look at it like one of you said earlier that you're actually gonna maybe get more benefit out of the fall moisture drying growth than you would add anything in the spring anyway because in the spring, you know, it moves quickly to reproduction which I guess reproduction uses more moisture than vegetative basically, but if we just terminate these in the fall crop even if it's a cereal terminated, if we terminate it at some point will it be available for the corn next year? Yeah, I think what I would do is I would just say that the benefits are gonna be in that it dries the soil out so if you have less de-nitrification then maybe that's where you look for the benefit. I don't know that terminating it because you know, I mean from what I hear from say a lot of the, okay, you know, let's say well we planted a cover crop and then two years later we feel like we saw the benefits and that's just an observation but you know, as far as what Branson and I are seeing on those plots working with Marisol we're not, I don't think we've seen it released yet in those and we have a long-term no-till system that's 40 plus years no-till with 20 years of cover crops and we have a recently converted site that would just be four years no-till and we're just not in our soils here we're not seeing it become available which you know- So maybe I need to stay with the plan of a cereal to a soybean next year because the nitrogen isn't gonna matter and a non-serial this year to a corn next year because the non-serials, the broadleaves won't have as much maybe nitrogen holding or- Yeah and I think that's the system that works I mean going from the winter cereal to a broadleaf is really where we don't see the effects on crop yield and we're not expecting any nitrogen to be released and then yeah some kind of broadleaf prior to your corn crop. Right. You know and I think that system is what I think we've found that that just works you know it's works well. Yeah. Okay thanks. Yeah and I see Greg puts on here cover crops aren't for a one-year gain it's long-term and I yeah I think that's where you're gonna really see the benefits is the building organic matter that still takes years to do but yeah it's a long-term long-term thing. But you prove also soil aggregation and you mentioned the microbial biomass goes up so there's a lot of benefits it's just the nitrogen is not cycling like we thought previously and this is not only for cereals taking the nitrogen. Dr. Fransen has worked with Radish, put legumes and none of them are releasing are releasing the nitrogen to the next crop. I think the couple short term benefits of growing cover crops would be one improving infiltration which partly also includes less tillage and then increased water holding capacities. So one would infiltration will work actually under drier weather as well as wet weather because under wet weather you want that water to go into the soil and under drier weather you still want that water to go into the soil to become available for plants. These two things increasing infiltration in water holding capacity to me I've actually seen fields which have improved these two properties in two to three years and I'm not gonna say every soil is gonna act like that but I have seen that in person and that these two are pretty important soil properties.