 Alright, let's go ahead and get started. We have attendees, I'm going to go. My name is Daniela Barbosa, I am the Vice President of Worldwide Alliance is here at hyper ledger. So welcome everyone to the hyper ledger in depth and our with our members. Today we'll be speaking with Alastria, who is one of our new hyper ledger associate members on understanding their mission to promote the digital economy and how the hyper ledger is involved and how you can be involved as well. Today's speaker is going to be hey who's race, who's the member of the board and the CTO of Alastria blockchain ecosystem. And during the Q&A we're going to also have Brian Belendorf participate, and he's the general manager of blockchain health care and identity at the We will open up for Q&A and promote all the participants to panelists so that you can turn on your video as well. But during the chat, there's chat and Q&A also available. I'd like to start for everybody maybe a good morning afternoon and let us know where you're zooming in from. In the chat room just say, you know, for example, I am in San Francisco so I would chat. Good morning I'm in San Francisco so welcome everyone will go ahead and get started and let's do just some little housekeeping. Like all hyper ledger events that we have we do have an antitrust policy. So all our meetings, you know, involve participation by industry competitors. So we want to make sure that we conduct all activities in accordance with the applicable antitrust and competition loss. Please do read the full policy on our website. If you have any questions do let us know. Please note that this is being recorded. So this video is being recorded, and the webinar recording will be available in our webinar library. And there's a lot of other great content there as well. After the session we will also provide the slides to be downloaded so that you can have access to that. Once again if you have any questions just let us know in the chat. So these hyper ledger in depth are really ways for communities to learn what hyper ledger is working on what our members in our community is working on, but also to share the work that you're doing to ask questions so as I said we'll have some q&a time, and we look forward to it. If you are new to zoom, there's a couple of features that you can use you can use the raise hand feature, and to get promoted to speak. You can also use the q&a feature in the webinar to ask questions, or the chat and I will be monitoring all three of those, and making sure that your questions get answered. So let's go ahead and get started. Hey, who's do you want to share your screen and we can get you started. Yes. Right. Welcome. Okay, thank you. You should be looking at my screen right now. Correct. Okay, so let me minimize everything and then put the cursor here. Just to help me. Okay, so thank you everybody. Good morning, good evening, good night, or whatever is applicable in your time zone for giving me the opportunity to explain what we are doing in Alaska. But let me start from the beginning. In 1972, the first public data network in the world was put into operation. At that time, the networks were mostly regional or national before the development of the common protocols that enabled later the interconnection among different networks to become the network of networks, better known as the internet. The definition of public data network implies that any natural or judicial person without any discrimination or arbitrary rules can contract access to the network and use it for any use case that they want. This is not the current definition that was done at that time. Okay, public data network. But which were the countries pioneering the public data networks in the world. Well, they deployed in 1972 the first public data network in the world, six years before France nine before Germany and even three before the US. Incredibly, that was done in an environment where the Spanish investment level in research at development was five to 10 times lower than the other countries mentioned. Currently, and despite many, many problems in Spain, the public administration of Spain is one of the most digitalized in Europe, according to some official rankings. And the penetration of fiber to the home FTT age is one of the highest in Europe. This may be the reason why Spain did it again. Spain has been the first to implement a general purpose blockchain network with the so called public permission model trying to get the best of two worlds. First, at the centralized governance model ensuring that anybody can participate and second, a permissioning system like in the private constructions of banks, banks, energy companies, energy companies, or in the network dedicated to specific use cases like food traceability or any other things. This is a network which is not controlled by any company group of companies or even by a single government and network with the spirit of the internet backbone, which is also decentralized and permission at the same time. The way the term public permission has to include explicitly the word permission because public in the blockchain space is used for public permissionless networks like Bitcoin or Ethereum. And this is an anomaly that we have to accept when speaking about blockchains. This is what we call the manifesto of public permission blockchain networks. This is the idea is almost impossible to do this right now with the current technology and the current processes, but this is aspirational. The target. First, anyone can participate and use it. And there are no artificial barriers of entry arbitrary exclusivity. Anyone can participate in the governance of the network if they comply with some conditions which are transparent, fair and inclusive. There is no anonymity for businesses and other legal persons privacy. Yes, anonymity. No, like in the real economy and in the real society. This is what it is when we are talking about and probably I had to say that most of the things that I said based on the values of the European region, the European Union, and any other countries or regions in the world which assume the same values. Then also protection of the citizen and the consumer is essential and embedded into the system, not something after the fact is not an afterthought. And of course, it must be sustainable and help in the future of the circular economy. The model is in reality like a common pool resource which is not controlled either by the state or by the invisible hand of the market. I said again, we don't want this to be controlled by one state or by the invisible hand of the market. And common pool resources have existed for centuries, but they have been normally reduced to the management of natural resources and in a limited geographical scale. For the first time, the blockchain can be considered as a techno social scarce or limited resource where the principles of common pool resources can be applied very efficiently by encoding most of the rules into the blockchain infrastructure. That was impossible until until the blockchain. Of course, speculation should be taken as far away as possible from this infrastructure. If we let the traditional market rules, or the new game theoretic rules to govern a limited resource, we already know what happens with prices and inclusivity. And if putting together the words permission and decentralized seems strange to you, think twice. There is not real decentralization in an anonymous network. Think about the internet backbone about the real economy. Think about most anything in the real economy about any essential public service like public health, public education, or the public roads of a country. They are all permission, because if there is a common good, which is not infinite is limited. If you are not inclusive, fair, neutral and not subject to extreme extreme speculation and dominated by the rich and powerful, then you need it to be permissioned, but both a good governance model, a decentralized governance model and permission. That's the challenge. And that's the challenge that in Alaska. Alaska is a nonprofit association which was created three years ago. We are right now more than 500 entities and with a heterogeneous composition, even though it started mainly with big companies as attractors. It is critical to empower a small and medium enterprises to participate actively in the evolution of blockchain applications and use cases. And this is one of the missions of the association. It is also very important to collaborate with public administrations, research centers, universities, etc. Participation is open to everybody. And for example, existing members cannot arbitrarily exclude other entities from joining, as long as some rules are followed, which has to be, which are transparent, fair and inclusive. So existing members cannot say, I don't want this competitor to enter the association. Okay. This is like, by the way, in addition to being a normal association, normally in the sense that is a way to exchange to network between members. One of the main objectives is to promote the creation of factual working and operational public permission networks. We see one of the networks, the oldest one, okay, which is operated by the members of Alaska. There are others growing based on hyperledger Bezu hyperledger fabric. Okay, we are agnostic to the technology is the members who want to do something with one technology, the ones who are going to take the initiative. And I want to stress the point that the association does not operate any single note or service on the network. The association has legal entity. Okay, the association just promotes the network. The network is completely operated by the members and anybody can participate in running the network if they comply with some operational rules that have been set up and accepted by all members of the community. The rules are transparent and non discriminatory, even though we still have a long way to go in order to make it as decentralized as we went because the target is really challenging. By the way, there is no business model in operating the network. This is not a blockchain as a service or similar things. Okay, the money for companies is in the applications on top. So the companies want the network to exist because they want to deploy some use cases and they need a network with these characteristics. There are some, these are some of the use cases that are deployed in in the last networks, and it is natural that at this moment if you look at the, at the types of use cases. Okay, most of them are of the notization type. The proof of existence of something in the past. They are much easier to implement than the use cases where interchange of digital value is involved. But this is natural because the focus is on the real economy. Because everything is important, but a special focus is on the red part of the economy. This is trying to represent the whole economy. This is just focusing on the real economy versus the financial economy. The real economy is the part of the economy that produces goods and services rather than the part that consists of financial services such as banks, stock markets, etc. In reality, the financial economy should be at the service of the real economy because the pool are in the middle. Because in general, the quality of life of Europeans is very correlated with the gross domestic product GDP of the region, which is the real economy, and the efficient and transparent functioning of its public administration. I have painted in blue, basically the arrows, which are most important in this complex cycle of the real economy. Okay. Unfortunately, the citizens, the families, the households are at the center of everything, not the contrary, and especially important to the normal citizens are the arrows in blue, which are critical for the well-being of the citizens. Unfortunately, one of the biggest problems we have now is the growing disconnect between the financial economy and the real economy. We all know that. The real economy, as I said, should be at the service of the real economy. But lately, especially with digitalization, it seems to be an independent animal which serves only a few, leaving most of the people underserved in the real economy. Most essential needs of human beings are physical, not digital. If you don't eat, you die. The same with water, electricity and clothing. People need vaccinations, medicines, hospitals, doctors, machinery, instruments, etc. People need roads, vehicles, boats, planes, etc. Can you imagine tokenizing everything and then following on the steps of the bitcoin and skyrocketing the prices of all essential services? This is one of the major challenges of tokenization. Its focus should be on the real economy and enhances the quality of life of all citizens. It should not be centered on the financial economy in an isolated way. And let me talk a little bit about the real economy. Because a common theme in the blockchain space is we have to decentralize this, we have to decentralize that, but the real economy is already very decentralized and we need the blockchain to coordinate efficiently all the activities of many different independent and autonomous entities. There are 30 million businesses in Europe and billions of euros can be safe and productivity improve if coordination is enhanced. And if we speak about public administration services, it is also very much decentralized. Think about local governments in small villages. The centralization is a good way to be in direct contact with their citizens and provide better services which are relevant to them. The real problem in the real world is how to act efficiently and in a coordinated way. So we have to two apparently conflicting goals. Better services require decentralization, but efficiency and control require centralization. And blockchain can help coordination of decentralized services. That's one of the main challenges. But as I said, the problem is general. Everywhere we look at the scratch past the surface, we see coordination complexity that the blockchain can help reduce. The customer, the consumer, the citizen is just here. So we see those chains are not really chains are webs, are networks, very complex. Let me stress this contrary to conventional wisdom. The problem in the real economy, the one which is most important for the people is not decentralizing things to coordinate efficiently things which are already very, very decentralized. For each pair of entities interacting in the real economy, you see decentralized workflows between them basically registering compromises agreements promises certifications, etc. And with current technology many things can go wrong because there is not a single source of truth and reconciliation and inefficiency represents a significant cost, both monetary and for quality of service. And the end customer the citizen is the one suffering and paying for that inefficiency and many times the risk to the health or physical integrity are very, very high. Think about food traceability or vaccination logistics in this pandemic, or thousands of other use cases not related to speculation for curiosity, you don't see payments in this picture. Okay, because normally the payment is performed several weeks or months after the actual transaction have taken place. And we can see also that volume of transactions due to workflows are much higher than the number of payments or actual asset transfers. So you see in the use cases that I displayed before a typical trend in the real economy. Okay, because in the real economy, the real problem is selling, not getting paid. And continuing with the story, let me talk a little bit about FC, okay, because the European blockchain service infrastructure or FC and Alastria are completely interrelated. FC is a joint initiative from the European Commission and member states to deliver European wide cross border public services using blockchain technology. The main objective of FC is to enhance the provision of cross border services, including the mobility of citizens and enterprises, and at the same time, it will be a key enabler for the digital transformation of the whole European economic area. The network and initial use cases are approaching production estate, which is planned for 2021. And guess what? Two technologies are being used for two types of blockchain networks, Hyperledger Bezu and Hyperledger Fabric, both hyperledger. So this is good news. And these are the use cases currently being implemented in FC. One of them is much more than a use case. The European self serving identity framework or ESIF in short is a key enabler for all the other use cases. Now I'm in the future. Remember, 500 million people, citizens and 30 million companies or businesses. Okay. These are new use cases already accepted but not yet ready, really, really, really start. Okay. Now, trust, we all know, is a key component of society and the economy. The lower the trust among participants, the higher the cost of transaction among those participants and the future is not going to be a single network dominating the whole world and for all possible use cases. The future is going, we all know, a network of intra cloud networks and centralized systems and at the top of the figure. Okay, you see a blockchain network that the European Commission and the members they start building the FC. Okay, I'm putting into production this year as a set. The network is called FC. Okay, because the S is for actual services, not just avoid thing. Okay. And the main objective is to enhance the provision of cross world services as a set. Even though is FC is a network of governments and public administrations, the new digital identity system developed by the 28 governments and the European Commission will be useful outside of FC, especially by the private sector. Yes. And I think that in order to cross network boundaries, I have represented here, Alastria networks, then FC but other countries are doing the same thing that you can have private consortium and existing systems even even though they are not blockchain networks. Okay. In order to cross boundaries in a secure and efficient way, many independent networks will use FC as an anchoring mechanism to share trusted facts about participants in different networks. The new pan-European blockchain based digital identity system is going to play a crucial role in this enterprise. By the way, FC is another instance of a public permission blockchain network, like some of the emerging national blockchain networks like FC from Italy and the network from Slovenia and some other national blockchain networks. They are all basically following the same public permission blockchain networks. And digital identity, as I said, is the killer application to facilitate interoperability. This is not just digital identity, which is important is, is the one of the neighbors for many, many use cases of interoperability. We need a trusted common digital identity for natural persons for businesses and also for things and processes or workflows. And given that credentials flow mainly outside of the blockchain, the service provider receiving and verifying them could be in any part of the world as long as it trust on the origin network. Okay. If they trust on, let's say, decentralized blockchain network built by the European Commission and 28 members and all the public administration that will join the network. Okay. With the same public permission principle where nobody can control the network. This is critically important. Then, as long as the service project trust the network. Okay. And has a trusted way to access and verify the credentials. The service providers can be anywhere in Canada, in Latin America, wherever. Okay. And this is how a network would achieve interoperability. And I talk about interoperability because this is one of the main themes that we want right now to pursue in Alaska interoperability, not just with FC, but also with other blockchain networks, specifically the other international blockchain networks appearing in Europe and in other parts of the of the world, but they have to be compatible at the government level. Okay. And this can be done without connecting the infrastructures or having the bank, for example, a bank in Spain onboarding a new customer using credentials from Etsy, for example, imagine a government issuing a credential to one citizen, the citizen can use a bank in other in whatever country. Okay, without connecting the infrastructure without having the bank to participate with a node in the network, where the credential is generated. And by the way, this is essential to any wide ranging tokenization initiative to facilitate exchange of tokens in a compliant way, and with minimal friction. Okay. And I am almost finishing this is to ask the right way to describe interoperability across blockchain networks when the citizen is involved. Okay. Again, the most important thing is that the citizen is in the center, controlling her data and receiving and sending her credentials from and to different networks. And the networks interpret thanks to the self serving identity digital framework. Okay. The critical enabler is that the networks trust to each other, at least in the areas where interoperability has to be achieved in benefit of the citizen who is the most important thing in the world again. And it is up to the leaders and participants of the different networks and applications to enable this future, a future where identity decentralization and interoperability play a crucial role in facilitating the future. I will say it again, because they are both together identity identity. It's a human right. Okay, decentralization, the real decentralization, not what many people think decentralization is an interoperability a crucial role in the future tokenization is important. But it is just a piece of the whole puzzle that we all have to assemble in a collaborative way collaboration is critical. I hope that this vision can become a reality soon. And I encourage everybody to not only collaborate with Alastria, which is a very good thing so you can already come to Alastria join Alastria, and then collaborate in building the future and also to deploy your applications because this is a set of networks or an ecosystem where collaboration is is is a must, but we are actually building the operational networks okay in a collaborative way. Also, with any other network with the objectives that I explained before, which are expressing the manifesto and to work together in real interoperability use cases that are useful for the real economy and the real society. The real economy is not going to be dominated by a single network. That's impossible. So we need interoperability, and we are into interoperability we are just starting project of interoperability at the European wide area. Okay, so anybody can can join. And as I said, the real economy is much more than the financial economy were unfortunately most of the focus is. Thank you, everybody. And I have finished. I am hoping to any way that you may have. Well, thank you. Hey Zeus. Hi everyone, Brian Belendorf here from the Linux Foundation from from hyperledger as well. We are really looking forward to your questions. I, if you can drop them into chat I think although are we going to keep the Q&A tool live and want to drop it in there or should they just drop it straight into into chat. Either one is fine. They can also raise their hand and we, everybody has talking permitted. So then they can speak their question as well. Okay, let's let's do that then if you have a question that you want me to ask, drop it into chat, let's not use the Q&A tool and I'll try to keep an eye on that and if they can help highlight ones that you think are particularly interesting that be cool. If you do want to ask your question live, raise your hand and I'll keep an eye out for that raised hand thing and certainly happy to bring you on. I'd love to take the liberty of starting with the first question though. I'd love to know just like some more operational details if you don't mind. So you showed one of the one of the last year networks you have multiple networks right a couple different protocols in use. You mentioned fabric is one sounds like Bezu you have a Bezu network live as well. You mentioned one that was 120 nodes 99.99% uptime which which protocol is that. That's right now it's Quorum. Okay, because we started a long time ago. Then we have Bezu as a smaller network but growing, but our strategy I would say is to mix both in the Ethereum site of technologies is to mix Quorum, Bezu and other clients because we think diversity is a mass for a for a for a network which cannot be put behind variables or whatever this is like like Ethereum, let's say, but to a permission. So you can think of this network like Ethereum. So it's open to attacks from everybody so we need diversity we need Byzantine fault tolerance and so on. Okay. And I see that in the audience there is Jorge Ordovas, okay, who can talk about this fabric network, okay, better than me because he's leading the one of the other persons leading this network. This is just a new network okay cannot claim that is so big, but is with fabric, which has a lot of potential. Okay, and is the general approach that those nodes are run, like in a small number of data centers for performance and the like or that it's it's highly spread out that each company makes their own decision about where the node that represents them lives. That's a good question. Okay, and then I will ask, as Alastair because I am also participating in in EPC because I am, I am part of the team deploying the European blockchain network. Okay, so in Alastair the rule is that you can deploy wherever you want, as long as your node is inside the European Union, because legal reasons or whatever so you can deploy wherever but you know that when you can do this at the end there is a very limited set of the of data centers in Europe and you see some concentration of nodes in some notes for example in Germany in France in Ireland and so on. Now, if I answer from the European Union perspective, okay, we are setting up rules where we try to avoid concentration on data centers. Okay, because otherwise they could choose all AWS, for example, or Azure. We don't want that we want this to be as spread as possible. So there is not a single entity dominating any single aspect of the whole thing. Okay. That's great. You are free to put the notes and you can see that they are deployed in Amazon, in Azure, in whatever you want. Okay. Great. Sometimes there's a challenge in supporting that mode though, which is, I mean, even if they're all in the same continent, latency can be a real killer for, you know, the Byzantine fault tolerant algorithms. Have there been upper limits that you've hit with just the existing sets of nodes in terms of performance and suitability to purpose? That's a good question. We haven't found any major problems related to this. I know that in many, in many papers and so on, they talk about the latency system. In our experience, the connectivity between data center to data center because you have to take into account that this is not consumer grade things these are typically deployed on data centers. We have found that from data center to data center is not the same as when you are depleting inside a data center, but latency is not a problem. And we have seen that, for example, all the nodes running the consensus, okay, where we have more than right now and we have an algorithm set in place. That's not a problem. latency is not a problem as far as we have seen, but under an attack, maybe that would be a problem. Okay, because then they can disrupt the network. Well, that's a good question. Have you had any examples of bad actors or an attack on the network yet? Have you had to be resilient against somebody standing up a node and being, you know, there under false pretenses or spamming the network or anything like that? Well, yeah. Well, actually, actually, we started trying to expand the network. We have had several companies trying to do not just the typical ethical hacking and so on, but trying to take the network down. And then the network, of course, is not the same, but okay, I have been 15 years, sorry, in Banco Santander, okay. Technology and so on and well, 30 years in banking. Okay, before joining in first in IBM and so on, just for retail banking. I can tell you that I have never ever seen such a robust technology for such a low, let's see, you need to do things in a different way, but I have never seen any other way to deploy an infrastructure which is so resilient and so robust as this. Now, having said that, the speed is just very bad. Okay. As a database is horrible. Okay. As a right only database for read only for read and queries. It's incredibly resilient. Okay. So from the point of view, resiliency, I have never seen, I mean, it's impossible that a single company can deploy something like this impossible. Okay. If you do the right things. This is much is better is has a much higher resiliency than what for example Amazon can do or Google alone. I can I can say that. Okay. I know this is pretentious. Okay, but no. Well, that's great. Technology is incredible. And when you're thinking about the amount of volume anticipate clearly a related question is what kind of use cases this is suitable for because if it's a financial services use case then you're going to start if it's if it's like immediate settlement on all retail payments in Europe that would be, you know, tens of thousands of transactions a second, you'd have to support right. Are you finding that the with the with this architecture you're trying to choose use cases that are much lower volume. And does that tend you away from financial services and towards supply chain or government permitting or some other types of processes or use cases. Let me just start saying that. Okay, I understand why but we are focusing on one of the networks okay but it's another thing and then probably some of the technology will come because in the same vein that we think that the world is not going to be dominated by one single network. The world is not going to be dominated by a single technology and there may be different technologies for different problems so you may have one problem, one solution, like in the real world. Okay. Now, having said that my opinion because Alastria. Okay. I am bold member for of Alastria but you can have a lot of opinions actually we we are 500 entities or more than 500. And as we say in Spain, if you have 500 Spanish people you have 500 different opinions. Okay, so this is just my opinion so my opinion is that the network that we're talking about red team. Okay, is suitable not for every use case that you can drop by I see this like like also an anchoring mechanism and I have already talked to some entities okay businesses in the in the in the Alastria association, because the network is permission only for joining the network for putting a note. Once you have joined, you can deploy it's like in Ethereum, then you can deploy whatever use case. So deploying this use cases and smart contracts and applications is not permissioned. Okay, it's only putting your note. So this is very, very important. Do you implement a do you have gas fees then as a way to try to constrain or we are we are in the process right now is for free because the network is we have only 3 million transactions per month. Okay, so this is not enough to bring the network down so we want to, to keep this as free and cheap as possible. And then we are preparing for the future where if congestion comes, then you will have to pay for the network. Okay, but at network prices okay so so he's like a telcos. Okay, now having said that I see Alastria this network, more as an anchoring mechanism so you can, for example, be private consortium and then you can. You can basically not arise every night or every hour on this network. Okay, instead of in theory here because then you have all the all the legal things. Okay, because that's to me the only way to achieve real scalability. Okay, so if like an NFT use case popped up a public entity use case popped up on Alastria and suddenly started driving, you know, 10s of millions of transactions a day. So your recommendation would be, use the Alastria blockchain as an anchor, but set up a private set of nodes between a couple of other parties I mean it does affect decentralization a little bit right. The nice thing about exchanging NFTs on the Ethereum blockchain is you can do it atomically with payment, right, which you, it's harder to do and kind of a subtree kind of arrangement but but that certainly is, you know, kind of, it's almost like manual way, you know, kind of like manually kind of dividing out by by business or use case. I guess it just as a function of how easy is it to set up these, these subtrees these side channels these, however, you know, one wants to call them so. You have to take into account something okay because in Alastria, all the nodes are typically deployed no by individual natural persons are businesses, so they have identities. The, the, the blockchain networks in reality. I mean, some new business models can be appearing. Okay. But for making more efficient existing processes. Okay, then you don't really need to do what you will have to do when you have to operate with Chinese guy. Okay, from the US. Because you are inside the European Union, or inside a trade corridor, where you already have sold this so you have identities you have digital signatures you have the ability to go to the to the to the jurisdiction or to whatever okay to the to the legal system so the legal system. You have to avoid this as much as possible but it's just there just in case you need it, because then you have all the traceability or the immutability because contrary to what people think in a permission network, if you do the right things, you have immutability. Okay, because you have digital signatures come on. Okay. Do you do you have the do you have the ability on on the on the Elastria network, if, if one node is being a bad actor, and is pumping out lots of you know transactions kind of swapping the capacity or I otherwise trying to do things that the rest of the community doesn't feel is right. Is there a governance mechanism by which the other Elastria nodes can vote and have that one removed. Okay, we have the governance model in place because when you join the network, you have to comply with some operational rules which are published in the web. Okay, and the operational rules establish some things which you have to comply with. Okay, specifically this thing. Okay, so that's a human governance. That's a human governance function is like if a bad actor popped up as humans, you talk about it and try to come up to some negotiated thing and what ultimately is your lever to pull the plug on that bad actor. So we can do this. Okay, but we have not automated this. Okay, but basically we have the rules, because the rules, I mean, the rules are there. So the tools can be implemented. Remember, we are a nonprofit association, our muscle is very, very limited because it's nonprofit. So actually, the association is living from the from the members, everything in Elastria, almost everything is done by the members. So the members can say we don't want this guy, and we have committees of members, the validator knows for example, okay, there is a committee of validator knows that decide several things. Okay, for example, upgrading and so on, but in a transparent way, because we don't want any any black box. So everything is totally transparent. Of course, we are far from, let's say, the vision that we have. Okay, why? Because it's difficult. Come on. I mean, this is, but what we have implemented is a decentralized model, okay, where many, many things are still manual, and we are doing steps into these objectives. Okay, but the rules are already set up. Yeah, and this is something that in the open source community, we think about all the time is, you know, even though it feels like the at the root of open source software is the license, and is obviously the, the software itself. These communities work because, because the license gives you the right to fork, and that ultimately holds those in power with to check if Linus Torvalds ended up making a series of bad decisions. Right. The rest of the Linux community can take his kernel project in a different direction they might have to change the name. Right. But that that right to fork is like core to the concept of open source software. And it's interesting that it's a part of the public blockchain space where, you know, when there is that debate in the Ethereum ecosystem about reversing the the the Dow hack, right. So that spawned the Ethereum classic kind of thing that right to fork I mean it's a pretty impressive thing to watch. Do you think on either Elastria or in general on on kind of public permissioned blockchains we'll see this kind of right to fork is that important is that part of your governance model already like what happens if there is a really bad dispute inside of you know your board inside of the the validator network. Do networks come out of that. Yeah, of course I mean this can happen actually actually even more than that I mean the existing network okay the red team, because I am represented a company which is in the validators. So, it doesn't belong the network does not belong to Alastria Alastria promotes that the members generate the network but if we, this is this is not going to happen because it's a win win relationship okay it's a symbiosis. But if the network wants to go away from Alastria, they can do that, of course, then we could not be using the last name or whatever. So the right to fork is always there should be there because otherwise. I mean, you have to have the freedom to do whatever you want. Now, having said that, when you are talking about FC and the and the European blockchain service infrastructure, the right to fork is a little more. It's controversial. It's, it's, you know, and there's certainly other blockchain governance networks I can think of where that's not allowed, because the premises like know that data that's written maybe it's sensitive data, or, you know, I, you know, it's just people are more used to a top down structure in their governance they're not students of Eleanor Ostrom, like, like, like you are and others and so I, that's why I'm really, really passionate about seeing Alastria succeed and hopefully FC can also incorporate many of these. I'm just thinking, but we won't know if it works until it's been, you know, really put to the test, right. Okay, I was going to say this. This is something that we are started. Okay. We thought we need a type of network which looks like this. Let's try. We don't know if we are going to succeed. Okay, but it's three years and counting. Okay, and we are growing and the model is spreading so it looks like, okay, we had something. We had more questions than answers, and we still have. Okay, because nobody knows what the future is going, but we know what is the objective and the objective is to try to build something like the Internet is the blockchain has to be something which is available cheap for a fair price, which is permission like the Internet because in order to access the Internet, you are permission where you have to have privacy. Okay, and where everybody can participate to do the electronic businesses. Okay, with a much more resilient infrastructure, but they never should be there. You shouldn't be creating different networks like with the Internet. So you shouldn't be asking to other company. Okay, let's try to build these use cases. Let's try to build our own infrastructure because otherwise it's not possible. No, no, no, the network should be there and then you can deploy many different use cases like in the Internet. Okay, so the Internet is something that is out of discussion right now. You assume the Internet to exist and everybody to have access. I want to remind folks listening, you know, we really welcome questions. And if you want to ask a question live, feel free to raise your hand. And I'm watching kind of the participant list to look for raised hands I haven't seen any yet so that's cool also feel free in chat to send a message. So far there was one submitted from Marta Pekarska asking, how will these mixes work, how can a network handle many types of nodes. And let me actually extrapolate upon that to ask kind of a two part question. One is, you know, when you have lots of different protocols you support, right. Bezu and quorum are pretty close and I think there's there's even the chance that they'll get even closer to being truly compatible clients on the same networks. So you've got fabric, which is a very different approach. It's, it's a very different philosophy than the Ethereum ecosystem about how to build those kinds of apps. And if you want to be truly agnostic you have the door open to potentially others, since you talked about self sovereign identity so much. I'm guessing maybe there's some openness to like hyper ledger indie being a part of that work too, but it's really hard to be good at all things, right. Do you think a network like Alastria can actually be protocol agnostic, you know, or technology agnostic, or will it have to like make a hard choice about a small number of technologies. I think that at the end, again, the decision is not taken by Alastria Association is by the members and you see a concentration like for example with databases okay so you had many relational databases, 40 years ago and so on coming and then at the end you Okay, basically, then the no SQL databases appear then you have billions and then at the end on the real use cases you have a limited choice. So this is natural. This is going to happen. So which ones are going to be the survivors. Okay. The market will decide. Okay, basically the members. For example, we don't have corda. Well, is this a choice of choice of Alastria. No, I mean we are agnostic, but the members of Alastria have not requested corda. Okay, that's. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and then and then let me let me also say something about the mixing protocols okay because one thing as you really mentioned is to mix different client implementations of the same protocol like for example IBFT to or whatever, which is happening in the Ethereum base or enterprise Ethereum Alliance. Okay, because then you have Bezu, Quorum, they're going, you have from other clear mathematics and so on. They're joining forces to define a common protocol and then different implementations. Now fabric is, as you said, is a different animal. Okay, but my opinion, it will be fantastic to have different implementations of the same, let's say client okay PR notes with different languages, for example, instead of go to have one go and one in in in rest, for example, okay. Why this is complex, but this is adding diversity. Now, if this is not possible, then you have to add diversity by not using the same data center so you mix Amazon Azure and so on. Okay, because the critical thing is that if a bad actor enters into one node controlled by one entity, the idea is that this effort cannot be replicated to the other nodes. So they have to do another effort and another effort and every company has to have different policies. Okay, so diversity is critical. Now, if you can apply diversity to all the levels of the protocol stack, that's fantastic. If you cannot, you have to do whatever you can. Yeah, no, I, it does, it does surprise me I would have expected to see a an implementation of the fabric protocol in rust. You know, or, or Python or something like that and other languages as a emerge eventually over time, maybe we will. Maybe that's a way we actually look at, you know, evolution within the fabric community but it's interesting, interesting point. And that's actually kind of your comparison to like the early days of the internet because, you know, it is possible to support different protocols have these different networks. But in the early days of the net, it would not have worked if we had different DNS is, or different systems for allocating IP addresses. And I kind of think, you know there's early institutions on the internet. So, you know, there's the NANA, which allocated addresses and I, and then the network solutions contract which eventually became I can for the domain name system. Those all kind of emerged long before we realized how important all of this was right. I think it'd be hard to reinvent some of those today if we had to come up with an institution to fairly allocate new IP addresses, it would be intensely political and be very hard to get consensus. I think the good news is, because we have I can and ways of doing, you know, IP addresses, we can actually support lots of different options at the levels above, but there's still the law of network effects. There's still, you know, all the power that Google and Twitter have is because every that's where everybody is right and so I think there'll be this tension, there'll be forces that encourage proliferation and forces that encourage consolidation. It'll be interesting to see where that ends up when it comes to blockchain network architecture so be really cool to see. That's a very good point that you made, but let me also speak about another blockchain network that appearing one of my slides is Latin, which is a Latin American and Caribbean blockchain network promoted by the IDB. Okay, the development bank there, okay, which is not a bank. It's an institution with the purpose of developing countries, okay, and the regional. So, it is very interesting that, okay, I am also participating there, okay, together with some other people from Alaska because Alaska is a founding member of those of this network, okay. In this network, it's operational right now but it's growing, okay, it started after Alastria, but they are setting up, let's say the government center, okay, in the same building where LACNIC, okay, so the internet institutions are leaving, okay, because I think it's impossible to replicate what, as you mentioned, okay, the internet, but we have a lot of things to learn from the governance model of different heterogeneous things, okay, and they are in the same building and basically they are with the same philosophy, okay, so we need something like the internet with, it's a different animal, okay, it's a completely different animal, but the principle should be the same. That's the key thing, okay, and as you mentioned, it's impossible to replicate these institutions, but this is a problem, okay, it would be fantastic. But again, the internet needed a lot of years, many, many years, okay, so we are still in the infancy of this type of network, so we cannot just run and then do everything at the same time, okay. Yeah, well we certainly all want to do things on a shorter amount of timeframe too than the 40 years the internet has had and hopefully avoid some of the mistakes from the internet architecture like the cookie header that led to so much damage. Let me ask kind of what I think is an implicit second half of Marta's question, which is around interoperability and integration. Are there, are there tools, well let me pass this, are you tracking any of the efforts like cosmos or the, the IBC the, or even things like a hyperledger like cactus as potential tool gets to make it easier to do cross chain kinds of transactions is there anything that the membership that the last year membership has gravitated towards as a way to do this. Yeah, well there is an interoperability world group because in Alaska you do things in world groups, okay, where the members collaborate virtually, and there's an interoperability one okay and then in this interoperability world group, there are some themes, okay. One of the main things is cactus, okay, based on cactus so so we have explained cactus and then there's activity around cactus. Having said that interoperability is very complex and I have. Well, tomorrow, tomorrow I go to the European Commission for for explain the approach, you have different layers okay cactus is basically on the lower technical layers, but the interoperability initiatives that we are starting with some other networks in Europe, starting from the top. Okay, so without interconnecting the networks for use cases that are not exchange of value, which are just proof of something in the past. So they're just notarizations interoperability is much easier to do. Think about a diploma. Okay, a diploma, a diploma can be registered in one blockchain basically a hash well it's more complex than a hash in the use case, but at the end you write once and then you query many times in many ways. So you don't have to exchange value there is no trading there is no change of values. So, so it's a proof of thing. Okay, actually in the real economy, many things like that. So the interoperability actions are starting in many layers, but where you will see actual use cases being put into production is going to be first in, let's say notarization or workflow use cases, because they are much simpler. So you don't use anything like cactus. Okay, so I don't know if I explain this thing but different types of use cases have different problems and then using for example, sales or an identity you can make interoperable many many applications, wherever they are. Okay, for example. Yeah, I know a lot of important things I think that I like the most frequent use case for this kind of cross chain integration that I can think of is, you know, paying for for goods and shipment right you know where you've got one ledger that's tracking supply chain another ledger that's tracking that that is designed for payments right you might even be Ethereum or Bitcoin or something like that, and just wanting to make sure those transactions are atomic, so that you know I'm paying and I now have title to that, you know on the on the So lots of stuff being worked on in this space that is actually interoperability month at hyper ledger so on our on Twitter and our social feeds are trying to highlight examples of where this is happening and cactus is actually one of two projects right now inside of hyper ledger there's another one called weaver that's in labs. And we're seeing some interest in potentially more code coming in that might bring us closer into the cosmos kind of ecosystem around IBC so I think there's there's a lot of activity there. We're just getting down there was a question in Q amp a about how do we address the risk of Turing completeness of F based smart contracts, which I think is a related question to the gas fees question and bad actors question because you know, as contracts are designed to try to not be infinite loop and and keep going but I think the question about Turing completeness is that there's the possibility of, you know, it's it's the, what's the halting problem, right, you know that might keep contracts running forever consuming resources so again it's kind of back to the question of, are there bad actors have there been bad actors how have you addressed them, do you need to introduce gas fees I think we talked a bunch about that but anything else you wanted to add on that. Actually, we haven't seen any bad actors. Okay, even though there may have been. Okay, because because I said that we have tried to bring down the network. Okay. And the fact, well, that was one of the first modifications we made to quorum. Okay, because the initial implementation of quorum and back when I was stealing in Santander. Didn't have implemented gas. Okay, so they eliminated completely gas. And one of the things that we made a fix in Santander and then we asked for the implementation for the real implementation is, please, we enable gas, but the cost is not is zero. So basically when you execute a transaction in Alaska, you need to supply an amount of gas. So at the end, if you enter into a loop, essentially, eventually you run out of gas, even though you bought gas with zero euros. Okay. So at the end, it's like running in Ethereum, but the cost of the gas, okay, or it's right now zero, but we are going to put a price as soon as the network starts being. That's, that's really helpful. I just really quick in like 1015 seconds how might anybody is watching this get involved with Alaska. There are two ways mainly. Okay, one is, if you want a network or networks, okay, depending on your case, if you have something, some use case on fabric, okay, we are already, we have already a network ready for production where you can enter. It has a freemium model, let's say, okay, so you can experiment for free, and then you can you can if you want the production level things and then you can do what is a lay and so on, then of course you will have to pay, but paying for a certain price is much less than paying for a purpose built infrastructure. Okay, so this is available for any, anybody, anybody can join Alastria, so you have to join Alastria, in order to join Alastria, if you are an NGO, you pay nothing. If you are a startup, you pay 500 euros per year. If you are a medium enterprise, small enterprise, 5000 euros per year, or if you are a big 10,000. So this is, and then you can use the networks. Depending on your use case, fabric, ethereum, you can join Alastria and deploy your networks there. And by the way, join other members with interesting use cases in an actual set of production ready networks. Okay, fantastic. Thank you. One thing is if you have another network, which the same, let's say a compatible objectives, let's talk, and let's talk about interoperability, but real interoperability, let's get use cases, real use cases and then let's see if there are enough members in Alastria and enough, let's say, resources in your network, and let's try to make a real interoperability use case, because we have to do things practicing. Okay, so thank you. Thank you, Jesus. This has been a really fun hour. Let me pass the microphone back to Daniella just to close us out. So a couple more things. So thank you Jesus and Alastria. Just a couple of things. We will be taking a month from these hyperledger in depth webinars and we'll be returning again in July with the DLT global Bonafé and my tree, but there's plenty of content for everyone. We're hosting our annual global forum, which is a virtual event this year, June 8 through the 10th, we'll have two global segments for Asia Pacific Europe and the Americas. And we have three days of content with over 100 different talks, including another one from Alastria going a little bit deeper into the topic that we discussed again so please do join us there. Project hyperledger project technical talks and developer talks and lots of different topics. And feel free to use the 20% discount code. The registration fee is only 50 US dollars but please go ahead and use the 20% discount code that you see there on the screen and we look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks. Thank you Jesus. Thank you Daniella. Thank you everyone for attending and see all of you at Hyperledger Global Forum. Thank you everybody.