 Hello, my name is Robin Lloyd and I'm here with Jerome Lepani and we are going to be looking at a new special tape by Breton Puppet and Peter Schumann. We are both aficionados, I would say, of Breton Puppet over the years and this most recent one was produced just in September and it is quite unique and interesting. So I would like to ask Jerome, who was a videographer, how long have you been involved with taping Breton Puppet and why? Why are you so interested in Breton Puppet Theatre? Well, I've been an art activist my entire life, my entire career, for 55 years. I first met Breton Puppet way back in the 60s and I have followed the career of Breton Puppet for a very long time. I also, in the late 60s, I joined the Living Theatre and traveled with the theatre to Europe and the Living Theatre is a very serious theatre but also a great friend of Breton Puppet. It so happened that Judith Molina, the founder of the Living Theatre with Julian Beck, gave Peter Schumann a first rehearsal space in the early 60s on Mondays when the Living Theatre was not using that space. So there has always, because of that, there has always been a relationship between Breton Puppet and the Living Theatre. I have loved that history and my filming of Breton Puppet over the last 10 years, of which I've made about 70 films now, that are on my channel, Jerome Lipani, YouTube, has been my way of manifesting that bridge, the cultural bridge of an activist theatre between Breton Puppet and the Living Theatre. So I try to shoot the work of Breton Puppet as if through the eyes of the Living Theatre. So there are many points of relationship actually and we will see some of those as we move through our list of clips. I will be able to show you some of the directorial, some of Peter's direction that mirrors the work of the Living Theatre and that will come up at the same point. I will just say that viewers, if they want to see some of my documents of Breton Puppet, it's at GreenValleyMedia.org and what I have done has been filmed very sort of carefully documentary image of the pageants, the pageants of the 90s. One of them was Convention of the Gods. These were such huge dramas that took place in the meadow up at Glover that I just felt were always astounding to choreograph. They were always astounding and to see that ancient sand quarry, amphitheatre filled with 40,000 people at its height, you know, by the late 90s, amazing, just amazing and wonderful. Yeah, the last one was 1998, was the last big pageant, I forget the name of that last one. But let's move on then. Had you filmed that one? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Gates of Hell. That was the name of it. Gates of Hell was 1998. Quite dramatic. So we're going to look, we're going to start now with the first clip, we're going through different clips and this introduces what this short 30 minute video document of the show Apocalypse Trauma. So let's get started with that. Yes, now we should also notice that this image of distressed humanity has its fist raised in the air, a defiant fist, revolution is necessary, is what Peter is saying. That huge paper mache image gets moved later to a corner of the theater and the people acknowledge it and come and give a bassence to it in a way. You know, something I really want to point out is the amazing atmosphere that this play takes place in and this is called The Barn at Bread and Puppet. Well, it's not really called The Barn, it's called the dirt floor cathedral. Oh, okay. It's almost like a barn. But it has those images, those small, you know, it's not like a religious building, but it has an austerity of something sacred there of really such amount of work and love and humanity going into all the figures that are on the wall there. So please take note of that ambience and I think we could look at the next image. The precision dance. And now, and I did my best to frame the images so that we could often see this fist raised in the foreground. So, this is an example, one of the examples in this piece of Peter's anti-dance choreography. He was interested in dance from the very beginning and I think people don't realize they think of him as a puppeteer and an artist, but dance was always integral to his work. And it's a strange kind of dance, no ballerinas. No ballerinas, no. That's why I call it anti-dance. Yeah, yeah. Now she's pouring, we don't quite understand what that's about. Everybody. Everyone. Yes. Now this is the dance of everyone jumping around in this interesting way. But then they just said, at the end of that, they said, our apocalypse, which is also printed at the top, it's written on the top of this image of the bedsheet, one of Peter's bedsheets, of which he has been producing so many lately. Yes. They, yes, over the last couple of years, I've had a hard time in keeping up with documenting them, in fact. Yeah, he has a studio and he sets up those bedsheets and you know, these are the beautiful sort of wet dreams of the bedsheets. Or the transfiguration of the dreams that people might have had in the hotels. The bedsheets themselves were donated to Peter from an old hotel. A friend found a way to give him those bedsheets and they turned out to be an incredibly productive medium for him. Well, could you talk a little bit about contissori, that's a term that has been used in bread and puppet a lot. And usually it's in a small screen, it's called a cranky. And images are cranked around in a kind of a unique setting. But this is contissori of a different dimension. Yes. Contissori, as Peter talks about it, that it comes from a long tradition that's both an eastern tradition and a western tradition. Even from China and from India and from Tibet, they were creating images and setting them up in tents so that the monks could teach the illiterate population. They could teach them the dharma, that on the eastern side. But in medieval Europe they were set up in front of the cathedral square and used in that way. They were also meant to be a teaching method and or plays could be played right in front of them, small plays could be played in front of them. Peter has revived this idea. Even in the Germany of his youth he witnessed those contissori being played in the cathedral square. And also when he went to Italy as a young man, when he was very impressed by the street theater, the street religious theater in Sicily where they were also carrying huge puppets that were representative of the saint or of Christ and the virgin etc. in religious processions. But Peter's and Elka's spirituality became a much more imagistic translation of a defined hierarchical spirituality because as people who have deeply socialistic, communistic integrity, they needed to express a spirituality that was without a particular object. And that is what we find in the dirt floor cathedral. We find all of these images that Peter has put around that have been made in Papua in a way that express many different facets of humanity. It's a kind of paganism I think. And a kind of paganism but also a kind of transcendentalism in my eyes for sure. And I think in many people's eyes I think that's one of the reasons why we are so attracted to Brett and Puppet's work. You know, for example, Peter always says the reason why the word bread is first is because it's more important than the puppets. So that distribution of the bread after performances was something that Peter and Elka started in the Lower East Side in the early 60s, 1963. So distribution of bread after the performance. Yeah, and you mentioned the word communism. I think it's interesting. People forget that Elka's mother was a youth at the time of the communist revolution. And it totally changed her life and changed the life of her whole family. She was a peasant and she became I think a medical person or at least an active in an institution in one of the big cities. And we forget about the positive things that the Soviet communism gave to people. We remember here all the negative things. What did positively impact lots of families in the Soviet Union? Yeah, Stalin definitely changed the entire thrust of the communist revolution. I'm a Trotskyist. In fact, with Dragon Dance Theater I played Trotsky. It was one of my favorite roles. I look a bit like him. When I have round glasses, they're perfectly good disguise for Trotsky. Okay, let's go on to number four, Strength and Determination Contest Stories. So this is a new bed sheet coming out from behind. This is a big one. Strength and Determination. This is based on a quotation from Eldridge Colby who was part of the Council on Foreign Relations. And it was said at the beginning of the Iraq War. And Peter quotes this several times in this place. To choose to fight a war. An aggressive world war needs to be prepared. So here Peter is talking about the military-industrial complex. And how when it predominates in a society as it does in ours, the build-up of the armaments themselves is going to end up. Those armaments are going to end up being used. They are not simply a defensive weaponry. They become an aggressive weaponry. And they terrorize the populace, which is what we're seeing here. And what is that music being played? And this music being played by Edith Corman is by Cautchitorian. He's by Cautchitorian. He was a Russian composer. I think he was a Russian composer. To choose to fight a war. To be prepared. Now they're begging the audience to wake up in a way, I would say. They're asking for people to have understanding about this. I certainly interpret it that way. Peter doesn't like to give interpretations of his work. He wants people to come to it themselves. He wants the work to have the impact that will reach people's hearts and minds. The actors are expressing the horror of the attempt to deal with this. To deal with this terrible syndrome of endless violence that is perpetrated by this country. So he uses these very simple means. Almost primitive means of people coming out with a decorated sheet. But to my mind, especially watching it all the way through, I invite everyone to go and watch the tape and see the whole thing. And perhaps we moved like I was at seeing it, which caused me to want to invite you and us to talk about it. Maybe we could go to the next one, which is the blah, blah, blah contissori. Yes, the blah, blah, blah contissori. And this, of course, is a quotation from Greta Thunberg. When she appealed to the environmental conferences to please do something besides more blah, blah, blah. So that has references to the modern ecological movement in which we do not want to see the destruction of the Amazon, in which we need to preserve the forests and allow ourselves, allow our country to build old growth forests again. I love this segment with these three singers because the kind of singing is, I don't know, it's a kind of chanting. But the three voices are, they work together beautifully. Yes, and I'm not sure what language this is in, but it could be in Palestinian or Lebanese language, it could be Arabic. Now, and here they are apparently making obeisance to this figure of distressed humanity. Now, what can that mean? They are not thinking of this necessarily as this image is a godlike image. I think the way I feel about it is that they are attempting to appeal to the courage, to an inner courage that distressed humanity has got to find. We have got to find that courage in ourselves now in order to be able to survive for this planet to survive, for humanity to survive, for all of the animals in the world to survive. We have to sort of live through the grief and through that begin to take action. The peace movement has to grow in America, let's put it bluntly there. Yes, yes. So the next image is really interesting because it's students, these are images of students at the so-called defunct university of all. Let's see the next clip here. An amazing contissori bedsheet, a donkey and... And a squawking duck and other monsters. Yes. So they are repeating the essential words that we find there, including all. Peter has been very much into expressing in his paintings of the last few years, all, the all. Now here we see an example of what I was talking about before, of the particular stage movements that came into being in the late 60s. For example, that the Living Theatre used in Paradise Now, for example, the very famous play of the Living Theatre in the late 60s. I mean, we don't think of that as dance, but it's people moving, it's a dance. Yes, yes. So one sees the echoes. This is one place where there's a bridging place for me between the Living Theatre and the Bread and Puppet Theatre. Now, you know, we see this very clear scene of chaos and horror of the political, socio-economic, psychological horror of the moment that has to be faced. How do we face this? Peter is trying to help us to face it. And the actors themselves are expressing their own agony that they experience in their own lives here. Yes, students, not just college students, but high school students, even elementary students are suffering more than we did, dealing with the crises they read about, the climate change, the violence. And Peter has effectively done the best, done a wonderful job at evoking these images. Yes, Peter is trying to say, this is real. This is pervasive in our society. Yes. And we have got to understand this. You know, in modern psychology, the talk has been about trauma really over the last 25, 30 years. I worked in mental health, so I got very much into the trauma theory. And it has been being expressed more and more. It has become a societal trauma effect that we are now facing. How do we face this with open eyes? Yeah, yeah. I think that's the big question that Peter is raising here. Yes, well, the next segment, the next bed sheet is quite a complex one and a beautiful one. It's called the Wind and Angel Contestoria. And so let's start that one. And part of what I like about it is it brings up behind a wind figure. There he is. She is. He is. And I'm remembering, again, one of the pageants. It was called Convention of the Gods. And wind seems to be one of the gods that Peter evokes. And what do you think he means by wind? I mean, is this change, maybe? Yes, change. The wind of time, perhaps. Yeah. Now, here we begin to see a series of improvisations that happened four times in this series. So each of the actors will do their own improv in relation to this angel figure. And here we have an overt spirituality. You know, it's angel number one. And the angel cries out with a loud voice to not harm the earth or the sea or the trees. And I love the way that this contestoria, that this huge bedsheet is being turned around. Yes, graphically. It's totally unique. And then the horns blow in and wind appears again. Yes. That was the beginning of the fourth improvisation, the fourth dance improvisation. Yeah. Now, is there one more of the improvisations of this? I don't know if we're going to see it or not. We could. It's in the film. That's a rather longer sequence. Yeah, maybe we want to move on to the they say contestoria. Yes. Where we have an actual quotation from the Bible that becomes a song, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness comprehends it not. You'll see that coming up. And I hope that we'll be able to hear that song. And here again, they're pointing to very important statements that need to be understood by all of us globally, internationally, not just in this country. It's a global crisis we're in now. Who is going to respond right of the dirt floor cathedral? Yeah, and I take that as a deeply prophetic statement. Peter has a very prophetic streak in him. He is often able to say the most astounding things that are an integration of the political and the spiritual and the transcendental. That is what is so marvelous about his work and has always been there. And it gives it so much power and so much profundity. Yes. And sometimes you have to work to put it into place. But I think in this contestoria and this play, it's pretty clear. I think he's really crying out to all of us. I can't think of any other artist in the United States at this time that is dealing so openly with the grief we feel of what's happening to the environment and the violence that surrounds us. Yes, yes. And ultimately, all of the statements are beyond words. What we feel in our hearts, finally, is not something that we can really articulate. And I think that Peter, in the movement of the puppets, in the use of the contestoria and the raising of these questions, he's leading up the public to that realization that we all must experience this on the insides of ourselves or we're not going to be able to respond to this current crisis. Well, we need to feel it really deeply. There can be all kinds of climate deniers, can't they? Even liberals and progressives, upper middle-class people in this country, it's uncomfortable for people to think about what we need to do. How are we going to change our energy system? It seems so impossible for people to be able to contemplate even. Yes, you know, earlier in the summertime, Peter Schumann came to Burlington and did a short piece called Bread Knot Bombs. And this was about the Ukraine. He is very disturbed, as I am, about the amount of military aid that is going to the Ukraine, which will lead to more deaths, although the people who are receiving it feel it will liberate them. And he is saying what Ukraine needs is bread, not bombs. Yes. So should we see the next one? This is really the culmination. Bread not bombs means mercy, doesn't it? It means mercy, it means compassion for other people. It means that we need to have compassion in this world for each other and for all the creatures of the world. And bombs are not compassion. No. Okay, dominance, full-spectrum, cantesoria. Here's the next one. You see, there's this state of attempting to grasp onto something and then being repelled. And afraid. Yes. Suddenly we have these flames up here. The planet is on fire. And she says the word nuclear. Nuclear, yes. Can we envision actually a nuclear exchange? Right. That's how we just fold up in horror. The memory of Hiroshima and how it has extended into our day. There we have the action of the military. It's hard to know exactly what is meant here. We haven't figured out some parts of this. I dare not put an interpretation on this. I leave it to people to wonder about it. The theater at its height in the late 90s, when I used to sit in the audience with 40,000 people, I would be hearing around me. What does that mean? What does that mean? And I would think, hey, people, you're not... No, wait, here she's telling. ...being informed. That was the quote from Colby. That was the quote from Colby once again that an aggressive war needs to be prepared. And is being prepared. Yes. And right now this week, the Germans and the Americans are moving more tanks into Ukraine and the British as well. And the idea that the more weapons you make and the more weapons you disseminate, it's proven through history they will get used. And we are making more nuclear weapons now as well. And what is the point of that if all countries have taken a vow to never use nuclear weapons and yet they're making more and more of them? Is there not something very sick about that? Yes, there's something very schizophrenic about it, isn't there? Yeah. So they're very schizoid about it. Yeah. Okay, we have here the last image which is very beautiful. The wind of defiance which will blow away the man-made apocalypse. The wind of defiance. Therefore, to blow away the man-made... I'm so glad I was able to frame this image with the fist being raised. Yes. I mean, in the pageants and at the end of most of the big theatre pieces there is always a... It's an earth mother often with huge arms that reaches across the meadow and people enter and join the embrace of the arms. And so this is a new version, a version crafted for exactly this cathedral. I love those little twigs, branches, also painted white. It's just... The speeders often done that, painted the branches that he uses in the pieces. Ultimately we have to work together, we have to come together. The embrace, the opening up, yeah. Yes, because ultimately it seems there has to be love. There has to be love. It's the only answer to the dilemma. And love has to have a certain power. The power of love. Working together to make it spread, to communicate it. Yeah, yeah. It certainly seems that that is the intention. That is here. So that's the end of the Apocalypse Trauma Theatre piece that was performed in September of this year. And do you have comments about the whole thing now? About the piece itself, about the Apocalypse Trauma piece. Well over the last few years the circuses have been called the Apocalypse Defiance Circus, the Anti-Propaganda Circus. You can see these, you can see them on my website at Jerome Lepana YouTube. You can see those productions. That has been going on for a while. The last few years have been, Peter has been particularly focused on that. How are we going to turn around this Apocalypse? That we have brought about ourselves. Yes. Well, okay, I hope everyone has enjoyed. This has been a sort of experience through this theatre piece and us talking over it sometimes. So I hope you will go to Jerome's website and watch the whole thing. And so we thank you for joining us today.