 At lunch now it's time for Community Matters. I'm Jay Fidel on Think Tech. This is Frank Rogers next to me. He does tiny houses. Hi, Frank. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks. Nice to be here. You know, this is very important. You and I spoke. We met at a party. I'd like to meet people at the park. I found that you had been on Think Tech before with Howard Wigg and Code Green. And then I started thinking how valuable it was to have this discussion in another context. Because your product is very energy efficient. That's why Howard wanted to talk to you. I want to talk to you for a different reason. There's an article in The New York Times this morning about homeless in California. And it's a growing number of people. They're everywhere. They're in all the neighborhoods or a lot of neighborhoods at this pushback by people with homes who have addresses. And it's getting to be an aggravated situation, according to the article. And then indeed, you know, I talked to an HPD officer the other day and I asked him, you know, gee, I've been reading little articles from around the country and it seems like there's more violence by homeless, including here in Honolulu, where homeless people attack people. Not necessarily to rob them, but just to sort of act out. Maybe it's mental illness. Maybe it's just acting out. Maybe it's frustration. Who knows what. But I've heard stories and he said, yes, that's true. That's true. We have, you know, so we have a bit of a contention. People are not as tolerant perhaps in California and here of the homeless and the homeless are not as tolerant people here either. And they become a big problem. And there are more of them than you can shake a stick at. You know, the estimate the last estimate was 15,000. I bet you five. It's much more than that. And it continues to increase. Okay, so, you know, what is the state doing for the homeless? Well, not much. And private charities are, there's hundreds of private charities all feeding them in all different places. And there's no control over where they are, you know. So the city builds potted plants and the like. They keep them out of this or out of that. But that's really not a solution. It's, you know, it's anecdotal at best. Okay, there's no real program, sorry to say, to deal with them. I'm sorry to say that. Big problem. Then we have affordable housing. And the state has done precious little about affordable housing. And all these bills 10 years ago, you know, requiring developers to set aside X number percentage of apartments, saying a condo for affordable housing. What difference does that make in a condo where the penthouse goes for $100 million? What difference does it make in a condo in Kakaako, you know, the Jury Ger, it's two, three million dollars all along the water, two, three, four million dollars. And look, you can look down on the blue tents of the homeless down there. And there's really very little affordable housing going on. And there's not a lot of plans for it. Furthermore, it just strikes me that the Department of Planning and Permitting, we all know very well, you know, they understand the problem. But in fact, they don't do anything about the problem. They give building permits to these huge multimillion dollar units, while regular people, middle class people cannot afford housing. So we have a big housing problem here. So when you and I talked at the party we met and we had a good conversation, and you told me and showed me your stuff on Tiny House, I thought, maybe this is a, maybe this is a solution. Maybe this is something that we can insinuate into the process, into the concept and the vision of dealing with both of these things that I described. And, you know, I called the show Tiny Houses to the Rescue. Maybe, Frank, you know, you can help us rescue two very difficult problems in the state. So let's ask you about the Tiny Houses. You're a roofing contractor, but you went into Tiny Houses. Why? I was going to bid on the Sand Island project. That was the one that they built over on Sand Island, and they used shipping containers. And I was one of three that was kind of in a partnership that was going to build a bid for that. And also, at the same time, they were going to bid on one in Makaha. I think it became the Halona project, I believe. Might be wrong on that, but it was in Y&I area. And what I noticed was that the way we were going to bid that, I was going to be part of the shipping container guys that did that. And also, with kind of an alternative for the Chinese modular houses where you buy the panels from China and you put them all together. But the bottom line, just like you said, it was so expensive. To me, it didn't make sense. It was so expensive, so cumbersome. So many things that are not optimal about living in a shipping container. You know, it's hot, it's oppressive. And by the time you did all the modifications that they wanted to, it became, actually, if you look at it, pretty expensive. And what does it cost to have a, make a shipping container, buy a shipping container, make it into a house? Well, my guess is 20 grand, anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And more because you have all sorts of things that you have to do. I mean, rightfully so, like, like access ramps, and they separated the shipping container, a 40 footer into, I think, five different apartments. There's almost like a jail cell with a window. And of course, it's metal and it's hot. And I don't mean to put down shipping containers, because I think that overall, they're fairly happy, as I understand, with the Sand Island thing. But it, because of the wraparound services, and a lot of things. But I guess basically what I found out was there a lot of, it wasn't optimum, by any means. And the Chinese modular thing was expensive, and the tariff situation. And if you're missing a piece that takes you eight weeks to get it, maybe you'll get it, maybe you won't. So I decided not to bid on those two projects. And I decided then that, but it got me thinking about if I could build it any way I wanted to. And I remember Elon Musk, talking about not that I'm comparing myself to Elon Musk, but the concept that he had was when he did the electric car, they said, well, you can't do that, because this is going to happen, you're going to run over grandkids and state rules and federal rules, every state has this, all the reasons that you can't build electric cars or self driving cars, let's say that too. This is why you can't do it. But he just said his planning process was forget all that, I'm going to design it the way I want it to the way I think it's going to work. And then we'll see what we can do from there. Well, but that that you're suggesting DPP is going to approve that. DPP is not easy. I'm working with the DPP is very concerned and the DPP solicited me, thankfully, and and had me speak in just for 10 or 15 minutes in front of their monthly meeting where they have all the building inspectors come from all the islands that colony colony Moku building over there. And I was really appreciated, appreciative of Howard Wig to allow me to do that. And so I got to take questions from them and show them this is what I'm doing. The reason I built it originally, if you see the ones if you show some exteriors on their Eric, the reason that we built it 10 by 12 is it's 120 square feet. Well, the 120 square feet, let's go through your pictures. Okay, let's let's let's we're going to get a slide show here. Here's the exterior of a house that's being built. So you build them on site. Yeah, this was built on site. Is there a call you have to workman build the house? That's what it takes. Yeah, well, sometimes we'll have three, they can do it and how you can do it. You can do it in two days if it's all pre manufactured off site and ready to go. Okay, right. So two can erect it in two days. And by that means the whole structure here, this is what we call post and panel instruction. And what we do is we use laminated boards or three quarter inch plywood, they have a termosite and all the blue levels so the termites can't get them. But they have a formica sheathing on each side of it. And then those panels are joined with aluminum connectors. And then we put other aluminum clad aluminum cladding around that. And then we coat it with waterproof and heat reflective coatings on the outside. That's part of the secret sauce. Okay, because you have to meet those are aluminum struts I see. Yep, for the roof. Yeah, that's the aircraft grade aluminum is called T six 60 60. That's a tiny house. What's the dimensions on 10 by 12? Okay. And the other thing is, are you are you leasing the land buying the land causing the the ultimate user buyer of the house to lease or buy the land, how do you get control of the land? Always a big question. Right, exactly. Well, the ones we've been building now, we've been checking out our processes. And they have been mostly single family owners that want something in the back of their, their, their lot and, and wanted for you know, storage. And it's totally legal as storage. We have filed for permits. And we've had good feedback. We're at the final stages of getting our office so that it's legal so you can actually make it as a regular building there. Yeah. And then it doesn't have to be 10 by 12. I call that my, my Trojan pony, but you have to have zoning that will allow that. Oh, yeah, we have to have an ad you or or or okay, or a farm or whatever you want. Is it a variance kind of situation or is it fit within some, you know, pre organized pre written permission? We don't have pre approval yet, because we first are just getting the approval for the first one. But my I've got stamped engineers and it when we look at it, we meet all I was afraid that I wouldn't meet the requirements. I thought, gee, do they still allow single family up single, excuse me, single wall construction. When I came to Kailua 1960, we lived in a single wall house, you know, single wall houses, right? We're worried about flammability. Well, the Micah sheeting is actually better than having the wood sheeting. And actually, the key was if it's insulation, and I have to do double wall, I don't want to do double wall. People I hate double wall, people hate double wall in wet areas because you have bugs and moisture and everything gets back there. It's really hard to construct. You don't need it. You don't need it because in a in a warm climate, as long as you can reflect the heat with the heat reflective coatings and you can waterproof it. Yeah, you don't need a roof. I don't have a roof. I don't have I don't have sighting. I don't have you know, tie back to save a lot of money on materials. A lot of money, a lot of weight. You don't need it. Okay, so moving back to my land question. So what's the model here? I'm trying to sort of fit this shoe into the notion of helping homeless and helping people who can't afford a regular house. That's that's my main goal. I'm doing it for private houses now to shake out my processes and my efficiency to get the land. Well, right now, I think I can reveal but I'm working with some people on the city council that are interested and see if if it's going to fit. I think I don't think there's any reason I can't they didn't say good but I'm, I'm working with Kimberly Pine on Poo, Honua, Ohi and I. And as you know, that's got all sorts of tarps and slanties and things but that's in what they call an Ohana zone. And Ohana zone can have variances on things like that. But I'm wanting to build it in a way that I don't even need the variances that I can fully meet building code regardless. It's not a big deal. We're there any way the way we see it. Oh, I'm thinking maybe maybe this is already in discussion is you get you get land somebody gives you land. And by the way most of the land in the state of Hawaii is owned by the state of Hawaii. And the state of Hawaii notoriously unwilling to share that land. It's gonna keep keep title. I'm not sure why maybe it's for a day when sovereignty is reversed. And we're back to 1892. I don't know why. But bottom line is there's a lot of land available that the state doesn't let anybody use it. So let's assume you have a 500 acre parcel. Let's assume you want to build a community. I love it streets, right? Lighting plumbing, the whole nine yards, literally. Yeah, okay. And you want to put tiny houses down because you could put more in there. And you build common areas and all this is it's a development. It's not a Chicago project, which which we know doesn't work. Right. It's more of a community of small houses. Right. So let's let's use that as a model. Okay, that's my case study. That's why I call an intentional community. And it's my dream. I want to do that. Okay, so we find a way to get you 500 acres. Okay, what happens then? Okay, so this is the fun part. This is the part that is really different is that it's very simple to put this up. You don't have to be a contractor. You do need one person who's a good handyman, good with tools, you don't even need many tools, you know, impact wrench and saw a couple things. You don't need a lot of skill, but you need a couple able bodied people. So let me just say besides the homeless, the other market that's right adjacent to that is emergency housing, i.e. Ahua, Hawaii, wildfire. What's emergency? Oh, emergency housing means you just had a you had a hurricane. Of course, we never have hurricanes in Hawaii, never have floods in Hawaii, never have volcanoes or wildfires in Hawaii, or Northern California. But if you did, all sudden what you do is you have a whole village that's homeless. Basically, they're involuntary homeless, I guess you could call them. And for my purposes, that's good because if we can store we can store our house in a stack of of our panels is only like 19 inches high. I think you might have a warehouse. If you look at the warehouse slide, I think you might do that. So let's go through the slides. Yeah, imagine here. So this is all the panels when they're broken down. This is the roof, the walls, and the and the and the flooring all broken down here. That's about 19 inches high. That's one 10 by 12 unit that can actually sleep easily a family of four say a husband and a wife and two kids. So you have this in storage, essentially. So let's say the Red Cross or someone has let's say 20 of these in a warehouse. So they're, you know, foot and a half tall. And so you have 20 of them. So you know, 30 feet or so emergency why don't I just build a big tent? We're those sprung structures. They got those all over. Yeah, what's what happens when the hurricane comes next week? Right? So we we contend that we think we will be one of the last structures standing after a after a major hurricane. Well, because if you look at the building again, or if you look at our framework, the panel and post one. Now see all the see the way they're all bolted together. Those are bolted together with stainless steel bolts, and and really thick, non corrosive. It's not temporary. No, it's permanent. It will last longer than so I why why have all the building components on the side, why don't you just build my 500 acres, build it, build it now, you know, build it and they will come, they will come. Well, we were talking about Pahoa, we're talking about or hurricane or we're talking about emergency deployment. And now I'll get I'll get to that because that's it's adjacent. But I'm saying they're similar. But but the advantage of this adjacent really matter. I mean, they don't have housing, they're sleeping on the pavement. Why can we just, you know, buy a plane ticket and move them to the location where the house is? Well, this is what Okay, if you want to move into homeless rather than emergency housing? No, no, emergency housing for people who lost their homes. Yeah, eruptions, what have you. Okay, so what could happen is you get let's say you want to have 20 houses, this is your your base to start everything off. So you keep those in a warehouse, where it costs, my National Guard, whatever. Boom, the hurricane hits the minute the hurricane goes, you put these either on a Huey, or you put them on young brothers, you take them out to wherever the hurricane was. Within a couple days, they're you're forking these off of off of there, you take them up there. What do you have after an emergency? You have a lot of homeless people and involuntarily homeless people. And you also have a lot of concrete slabs, let's say, because the hurricane is just decimated the house. That's also good for our system, because one of the most the expensive parts is having for us to pour our own slab or put it up on concrete blocks. So right away, if they say, Well, listen, here's an old mill or old warehouse, we're not going to rebuild there. And it's it's like an old, you know, like an old 20,000 square feet or 5000 square feet. Well, we only need 120 per house and a little space in between everything. We could build a village there with all the unemployed able bodied people don't have to be contractors. We send over one or two of our guys, or if they have good contractors that we train them. Well, um, that's good. You know, I'm happy to have the union carpenters participate because we don't care if they're paid 40 or 50. I like having non union work workers work. Well, but here's the thing. Um, this is for this is an emergency. This is people are if they want to come and do it. That's fine. You know, the I think a couple things that carpenters they're they have people they have family and they have they see the homeless situation too. They're affected by that too. Okay, we're not building these as suburbs here. We're building this as emergency housing. It can be permanent or temporary. You can take it down again. We can take it down and collapse it in two days. But what I'm saying is, if you the if we have this whole people, they're unemployed, they're shivering in the rain, we get these we get the things over there in two or three days. And the first thing we build is we build, you know, emergency housing for the medical people that come the support systems and for the most vulnerable the kids. So the able-bodied people come we come in with one or two of our guys. It's like a big IKEA set. We say take this, hold this together, put the panels here. Yeah, do that. No, don't do that. Do that over here. Boom, boom, boom, we get we get all of that together. And they're all building houses simultaneously on say the slab or parking lot or whatever they give us whether it's going to be temporary or permanent. So you could build a village of those 20 houses in a week, you know, maybe less. And all of a sudden, you've got 20 houses now that now have shelter. Obviously, in two weeks, you could do 40 or 60 or whatever number you want to have that's in storage, that's pre-manufactured, it's pre-cut to kid has all the bolts as everything you need. And people could figure out how to put it together themselves. But with just one or two people that know how to do it, they can do it. It's Kimberly Pine helping you with this. She is, I'm, I'm meeting with her. She's going to take a look at it. And she and then we're going to go take a look at Poo Ho Nui, Poo Ho Nua, Oh why and I over there, hopefully, and if they like, if they like our concept, if it fits into what they want to do, we can do it. But let me let's then let's shift to over there. What I would like to do, and again, I, they haven't signed off on this, but this is what I would propose. I think it's extremely exciting. I'm a roofing contract I've been doing it for 40 years. I will tell you that my company Leakmaster Roofing, we've executed tens of thousands of contracts successfully without any major complaints. We also work, a couple of our crews, we always have, that we work with Laumaca, the work furlough program, basically prisoners on furlough that are trying to get back into the working environment. This will train them. Yeah, well we have a lot of experience doing that. We work with Job Corps also. In the 40 years I've been doing this, we work with getting people back that aren't necessarily, you know, kind of a little bit on the margins to get them back into work. Roofing is a good business for that because it's tough hard work and it fits them good. And I will tell you our very best crew that we have right now, and we have had, by the way, no personal problems. We haven't had any thefts, fistfights, anything like that that we attribute in these 40 years to working with that population. Yeah, we've had people that wash out, some that don't do well. What I'd like to do is get the able-bodied homeless. Again, the able-bodied homeless, you know. I mean the person who's really the hard course. That stirs the heart to do that. And then motivated because it's their home. And you help them help them learn and before you know it, the thing springs up like a mushroom. Then they don't need me. Then they can build it themselves. Hopefully if we do our job right, they buy the kit for me because we own the rights to the kid. They is who? The state, the city, whoever wants to build these things. Someone's gonna have to pay for that. Let me shift gears to this 500 acre parcel again. So I say, you know, there are even conservatively 15,000 homeless in this state. 20, maybe 25 or those. And I say we gotta do something. I'm the governor making myself governor right now. Say we're gonna do something. We are actually gonna do it. And I'm gonna find 500 acres of state land. And I'm gonna give it to an entity which is gonna build a village, the village you talked about, with these homes that go up fast and that are perfectly serviceable and efficient. And you make pass and you make common areas, a park, who knows what. Even parking because even homeless people have cars sometimes. And I make the community virtually overnight. Okay? Now I have this, how do you prevent this community from evolving into a Chicago project? How do you make this community a civilized area where people are taking care of their tiny homes? Sure. Well, what we found out with the Sand Island project was even though I didn't think the structures were optimum. And they first had a hard time selling it to the homeless because they didn't want to give up their addictions or pets, their freedom, what have you. They had to make it, believe it or not, this was news to me, attractive to the homeless. You think, oh my gosh, your shelter, let's go do it. There's rules and regulations. And I think they found the same thing. And I haven't been out there yet to talk to them, but I will. But as I understand, it's the same thing at Pujo Nua, where you just can't do whatever you want to whenever you want to and just party all the time. They won't allow that. And I believe that the old one... What's the sanction? If you don't follow the rules, what happens to you, you'll find what happens. They've got some guys there who I guess will figure it out. But... It's very important. But as you can't do violence, you can't do anything after a certain time and things like that. So again, I'm not an expert on them, but I hope to be, because I hope to be building the village out there. And I will be meeting with them hopefully in the next week or two. But the thing is that they do have, they're allowed, I think, under the Ohana law to have certain rules and regulations and variances on how they do things, as long as the state kind of signs off on it and makes sure it's not the Wild West. And as I understand, I think they're pointing to that as kind of a success. And that's why they've gotten money now to expand and to do things. All I'm saying is they really need to have a system where people are encouraged to incentivize or punished if they don't follow the rules. Because you don't know, you're getting a population, some of whom have been homeless for decades already. And you've got to ensure that for the safety of the neighbor, that they can behave themselves. The other thing is getting them into the village. I want to ask you about that. You know, because what happens is is 3,400 charities are out there, you know, giving them food in situ, wherever they are. And they're, you know, they come around and they line up and get a soup kitchen or some source of food, and the churches, you know, the organizations that feel morally bound to help them go out and help them, nobody would stop them and all that. The problem is that if they're getting food in situ, they're not encouraged to go to the village. So I know this is not a question of contracting or designing or tiny houses, but in this 500 acre model that we're playing with here, how do you get these people to go to the village and try it out? That's a great question. And what I found out, like just as a small aside to that, is which I didn't know is one of the biggest things that the homeless people want and actually need is the necessity. Chargers to get their telephone charged, you know, all the coffee. You heard it here on Think Tech. No, they get their notifications. This is their only form of communication and email and every other thing. And you know, phones aren't that expensive anymore, but you have to have them charged. And so I was talking to people to deal with this, and they said, make sure you have a lot of phone chargers. I go done food is another thing. But you know, here's the thing, I agree totally with this. And I think a lot of people do like a lot of people, I'm have both, you know, parts of me that are conservative and parts of me that are, you know, liberal, and being a, you know, small cup roofing contractor, that's more of the, I hate to say that's more that, you know, you know, the demographic that goes a little more conservative, right? And so there's a part of me that says I don't want to free ride for people who are able able bodied either. So this is something that is would be is what I want to experiment with because I believe we, but we work with these kind of people. And there's, it's very skinnerian, it's, you know, punishment, reward, compliments, etc. to get people to go. And so what what I would say is this comes to the heart of things. And I read that article in The New York Times too, about Oakland and stuff. And I think people are doing the mistaken opinion that the ACLU says you can't arrest people for being homeless, unless you can put them into a shelter. And to me, that's the law in California or anywhere. Well, in The New York Times thing, they were talking about, I think the politicians come out, we're talking about, we're talking about saying you can't, you just can't sleep here. You can't, it's illegal to defecate in the street. It's illegal to do a lot of these things here. The problem is when you arrest them, they don't want to fill up the jails, etc. You have to have a place. So you have to have a place. So if you have that place, so I would say that there's some of these places, you might just like, and like you say, a lot of them are mentally ill. And sometimes you have to involuntarily put mentally ill people in a mentally ill facility. But again, that's clogged in Coney Oye too. Let's say you take them to a nice organic farm if we may. And what they're entitled to is a place to sleep. And and maybe has a little bit, you know, like, it's out there in the country out in, you know, Tunia, Waipahu, wherever I know nobody wants it in their backyard and I don't blame them. But wherever it is, I say get it away from everyone else, and have a shuttle service that can take you to get your services. And also doctors can come in and check them on a regular basis. Village. It's a village that that has wraparound support and services. We know that that works. It has rules. But but that guy that doesn't want to work, the able bodied guy that everybody gets gets a bet. Well, let's put it this way. Can you show some exterior shots, Eric, of our place there? You only have a couple of minutes left here. Yeah. So okay, well, that's that's not a bad one, but show one where it's finished. Keep going, keep gone. What you can do this talks about how you can decompose the house in just two days and move it in case there is a volcano where we like to build keep on going though just a little bit more. There are no more handy. Oh, they're no more handy. Okay. Well, basically, in a house and that's kind of an upscale one, we're trying to show what you could do. But you can divide that into two, two different right down the middle. And let's say you're unwilling to work, you're just a gnarly guy, but you're creating a problem down here. Okay, you broke the law, you're convicted of, you know, defecation and assault, like you were talking about things like that. We're going to put you in here, in a half a house here that's divided and you're going to be safe. But if after a while, once we get you off the wrong chemicals that are coming into you, and maybe some of these people need the right chemicals coming back in and maybe they also need sunshine and, and food and maybe they need case workers. Yeah, case worker, maybe they need meds. You know, maybe they need some kind of meds to calm them down to get their situation. But that's what they found. I think, I think they found this in Sand Island, a lot of places that once they get you stabilized and you're not sleeping underneath the freeway, a lot of these guys able bodied guys can go back to work and work at a roofing company. So it's a continuum. The village is not right, you know, lateral village with everything the same, the village has steps. I think so this stage is this is my idea. So, so let's say you get stabilized, you go, Well, you know, I don't like sleeping and I don't want a half a house and the guy snores next door to me. I want my own place. Okay, here's what you do. Help around the community, help clean up the kitchen, help with the way for that. I think they should get a wage. I think they should get a decent wage. And I by the way, I worked agriculture. I was immigrant labor all around the world, including in Israel, and we were paid by the bushel. If I got a bushel of grapefruit and hypha, I didn't have to work for the rest of the day. So I'd knock it out by noon. I was I was done. And you could click this in with agriculture or some kind of agriculture to me is is part of the key there. Yeah, because you're out in nature. You're we all know we need to exercise, fresh air, and everybody wants farm to table, but nobody can afford to pay for the the farm workers at that rate because of the the thing because of the cost of the housing. So if you supply housing, and you gave them a decent wage, and at first you might have to subsidize it. But to the people that are good, you then they get their own place. Then they get freedom. Maybe what's important is freedom on the weekend. So now instead of being there seven days a week, okay, you can go on the weekend to catch the shuttle bus, go see your friends over there. But you got to come back on on Monday. So they get food and they get care, they get, they get services if they live there. If they want to take a walk and abandon their tiny house, you know, then all those things stop. It can't come back either. You know, I think it's a, it's like in China, it's a social score. If you behave yourself, you get benefits. Sure. If you don't, you don't get benefits. Okay, the last question we only have a minute left here. So I build my community or your community, so to speak, of lots of houses with paths, and common areas, with services, with agricultural plots, with compensation for, or for work, making building other houses, and I have stages and incentives, you know, if you do well, get a better part of the, part of the property. If you don't do so well, you're off the property, all that. I mean, it's kind of a lot of rules, but at the end of the day, they have a pretty good life. Okay, so is what we have just described also appropriate to deal with the affordable housing problem in the state? Or are we talking only about homeless? It's interesting, but our form of construction called panel and posts, and I don't get the other one, but I, we actually, I'm having engineers, make sure but we can actually build a three, and maybe even a four story walkup, to fit into the bill seven. So you would mix them up. You would say, we got tiny houses for people who really have no money. Yep, we got medium side, maybe even larger tiny houses for people who have a few bucks, who are working and can afford to pay rent. Would you, would you rent to them? What's the relationship? But is it a, is it a landlord tenant relationship? And is it, is it a buyer? It's a good question. I'm the guy that builds these kits and has the patents on this kit. And I will train your workforce with a couple of my guys here to build that town to build that city to build whatever you want, we will train them how to do them, maybe with a little government assistance to get up and running. But after a while, they won't really need me to do that, just buy the kit from me. And whenever you need me to come down there, we'll certify that it was built right, that it's waterproof, that's whatever. But I would like to see it, you know, I've already made my, my money in my time 40 years as a roofing contractor, I'm happy to do the building to get these off the project, I team with the general contractor in order to do a licensed general contractor now to do it. But to me, the real success would be to get the homeless to build it themselves. This is social, the social effort. In fact, I would venture to say, we'll have to leave it here, I would venture to say that this project is this case study project we've been talking about really depends in a critical way on somebody setting up a social structure in the village. If you don't have a social structure in the village, and you have to present this to Kimberly Pine or anyone else in the city council legislature to get funded to get permits. But if you could present a social structure, it seems to me an easy path, building this kind of village. Otherwise, you know, going to have trouble getting the money and getting the permission. Anyway, Frank, thank you so much for coming down. My pleasure. Stimulating an important discussion. It is. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks so much a lot.