 Hi, Stacy. Hello, I've been thinking about you. Oh, that's nice. I hope it was good thoughts. Yes, of course. Happy anniversary, by the way. Oh, thank you. Thank you. How you doing? I'm doing good. Good. Good. I'm sorry, I thought my camera was on. Sorry. How are things in New York? New York. Coming back to life a little bit. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm in a smaller, you know, I'm outside the city, but in like a New York. Oh yeah, okay. I was born in Ridgewood and my parents are from the Bronx and I spent my childhood around the city. I lived in Governor's Island for a year and 76 and so I am familiar. What humans. Jerry, how are you holding up in the heat, Mon? So, yeah, I was going to report in the heat peaked on Monday. And at 6pm Monday, it actually peaked from the previous five days where it'd been like, wow. And it peaked at 111 here. Wow. I went outside at 6, just like, because I could see on my little device when it was going to peek and I'm like, I wonder what that's like and it's pretty much like being in an air fryer. Jerry, how hot did you have air conditioning? Well, three, four years ago we installed AC in our flat, like regular, you know, full on AC and our flat is really tiny so, you know, it wasn't a big strain on the AC and we were fine. And the power utility seems to be much more competent than Texas. That's something. And I do have, I do have our Nest thermostat registered with PGE, not PG&E, but here it's just PGE. And they do like do a little bit of management of the temperies, but they didn't do anything mean to us on during the heat wave. So that was nice. Great. Interesting note about PG&E. I, you know, I hate that company. So when I was writing checks, I'd make them out to pigs, goats and emus. And they would cast them every single time. Funny how people take money even even. Let's check how to be made out to the proper entity, you know, but they would, they would, and I started off with pigs, goats and elephants and I thought I don't want to sell the elephants down for emus instead. Pigs are smart too. They are. The problem with pigs and octopi and squid is that they're incredibly intelligent and tasty too. And like it's bad. Yeah, yeah, I don't eat. I don't eat squid or octopi but now and then I'll have some bacon because bacon is actually, you know, it's, it's not, it's not pork it's bacon. Is it its own food group. So, so small side story, the, our habit of having bacon for breakfast and thinking of bacon as yummy food we owe in part to Eddie Bernays the father of public relations. And, and if you think about it, like, they had too much pork belly, like the pork industry, eating high on the hog means eating pork loin, which is the high part of the pig. That's the better part of the pig. And there was a whole bunch of spare pork belly they didn't know what to do with so the pork industry goes to Eddie and says, what do we do. And he's like, I know, we'll sell this as magic magic food for breakfast. So, you know, bacon and eggs winds up being like the hearty breakfast he also sold us orange juice for breakfast. Because the, the orange industry was like, dude, we got a lot of oranges. How do we get rid of the oranges. He also sold us women smoking in public. There's the famous torches of freedom march. And where he got a bunch of attractive debut chance on Easter parade day in New York City walking down Fifth Avenue to pull out cigarettes and light up on cue basically at the same time. And he had told some press that he knew his friends. I hear something's crazy is going to happen during the Easter parade you should show up. So Eddie Bernays is like behind the scenes for he also popularized the Diagele ballets the color green ivory soap. He helped invent ivory soap carving competitions during the Great Depression. So people bought a whole bunch of ivory soap to carbon and do contests that was all, it was all the sell more soap. I assume Bernays sauce used to be called something else until he. I don't think he gets any credit for sauce for nice. It could be he and he was also Sigmund Freud's nephew, and maybe the most interesting thing of all the things he did was he was part of the Office of Public Information and Woodrow Wilson's administration at the end of World War one. And Wilson goes to 1919 Paris peace talks, and is hailed as a conquering hero because their PR is so damn good, because America was really late to the to the war did almost nothing, and yet gets all this all this credit. After the peace talks, he goes to visit his uncle Sigmund in Vienna, and he's like, Oh, these books are pretty good, none of none of Freud's works and are translated into English or known in America yet. And so Eddie has them translated has them like publicly available and then becomes the authority in his uncle's work and become a lot of this is chronicled in the century the self, which is the great four part series by Adam Curtis about the uses of psychology and business and politics. So the whole first hours of biography of Eddie Bernays. And so Freud's theories become super popular in the US and lots of other places, in part because Eddie Bernays publicizes his uncle. By the way, hi on the hog. Yes, it's really worth watching. Totally worth watching. When did he invent bacon. Well, he didn't even think that bacon bacon was actually invented by pigs. But but he popularized it. Oh, I don't know exactly you'd have to look up a bio of when the big, the big people, you know, when the big people hired him. He was, he was approached by Goebbels to do PR for the Nazis turned them down. That's only like casualty because one of his books crystallizing public information was on Goebbels bookshelf and one of his favorites. Yep. So yeah, I don't know. He had his limits. Yeah, exactly. Stacey, thank you for for adding that in the chat here. Yeah, let's let's duplicate that onto the chat and metamask where we're trying to corral our. I'm sorry I couldn't get it now I can try to do that now that you put the link there and can just put the link thank you so much that's much appreciated. And put up a bit of a close this open the spreadsheet again and see if anybody has added themselves. So john excellent Alfred E Newman refuses to show up for these calls but he is on the list there. Does anybody get an Alfred E Newman reference anymore. I do. What worry. Exactly. I think I think that means that we see you older here is all but yeah. It's maybe it's like an age test of some sort. I used to be able to say, you know, get smart quips to do stuff it's like, get smart it's kind of aged off. We have a spreadsheet that we created. Here we go. This is a spreadsheet that we created to sequence up people who would like to check in to change the protocols for how we're doing this. And the notion is that we're going to put the call in half with the first half the first 45 minutes being plenary, and the second half being breakouts. Last week we kind of like, we were sort of about this size at the half and we decided to just stay and stay in plenary. But we did pick one of the topics that was in the air and focus on that rather than staying in check in mode. That was that was pretty interesting. So hi everybody. I'll just report in the heat like 111 degrees Fahrenheit is pretty hot. We were fortunate to have air conditioning so not struggling that way, and the city opened like the convention center and a bunch of other places as emergency cooling down spots. But there was a chart, I think in the Wall Street Journal about how much of an outlier the last three days were in the Pacific Northwest. And it basically you see the band of average temperatures every year, you know, months of the year. And then you see that these three days they're lying way outside the band, like way above the band. And you just look at that and go man if this starts happening more often everywhere. The climate future is going to be really unpleasant. Gil has as his background, the temperature rise graph what's it called. This is, this is stripes. Yeah, I did share your stripes I think that org this is the bands are annual average temperatures. In this case it's 1850 to 2020 California. You can get global you can get your country you can get many cases your city. The thing you're describing is obviously more granular going down to daily and monthly where you can see that there's you know in a lot of cases there's, there's an annual variation of the California water graphs it's quite stunning that drought is normal in California it's a cyclical process and what we're in now is not that this is something other than that. So it's a great way to visualize the patterns and trends. And this is the latest busy visualization. It is indeed. Thank you. So let's consult spreadsheet for a second and go john can badly. Good morning. And by the way, I may have missed her when she, if she came in earlier but I see grace is here and in which case, welcome. Great to see you. So, I was doing some work on. I nicknamed it the, the bubble breaker browser. And I'm playing with this idea. It's, it's, it's borrowed from the old concept of equal time. You know, in the 80s up through the 80s, a network, the way they would balance they would say well we gave some free PV interview time to this candidate so we got to give equal time to the other candidate. And, you know, it was imperfect of course. You know, you missed it when it was gone, and it went away in the 80s, because a lot of a lot of people mostly Reagan Reaganites hated it and told the FCC just stopped doing that. Well then of course, about the same time as it was banned. The first email messages were being sent across the opponent. And of course now we're in this whole different world where oh everybody's a creator anybody can send a message how could you say equal time. It's not time. It's, it's bandwidth it's you know blah blah blah. Okay, well we'll wait a minute but we're not all equal. And in fact, not only are there influencers, but there are bots, and there are, then there's targeting. This group has is among many groups that is sensitive to both the challenges presented by this, and the challenge presented presented by incomplete attempts to understand it. Such as surveillance capitalism I mean, you know it's great that that book exists it's got a lot of people thinking, and what, you know, now what I mean, you know we're in a situation now where authoritarianism might be on the verge of capitalism, no pun intended, because China in the all these other places just say well look, look, no, none of that stuff. None of that stuff matters to us. What we care about is, can we identify anybody who's saying anything subversive so we want to know everything about everybody. And you don't have anything to say about it and you just better give us all that data because we have a replacement for you. You know, you know, you're out of here. And so we're, we're in, we're in a future in which the scary dangerous capitalist version of surveillance is being replaced by the scarier more dangerous government sponsored versions of surveillance manipulation yikes. So, I don't know that an equal time browser is like a little candle in the wind, but I'm trying to develop a spec for a device that would basically be initially used in schools on a voluntary basis. And the idea is, you know you pull up one website that you're interested in or that's been sent to you algorithmically. And what the browser does is it says well we we found this other point of view that uses some of the data that's in the website that is talking to you. So, would you like to look at these two different points of view and think about, how are they different. What's going on here how's, how's one side interpreting the data versus the other side, and the idea is that you teach people that skill of saying wait a minute wait a minute, there's another view, there's another view, and that this is one of the sort of belief that covers up what's going on, or it actually begins to build a citizenship that can resist surveillance, whether capitalist or authoritarian. So that's, that's what I'm working on, and comments welcome. Thank you. And I think I think a lot of people have ideas about this and so I do a search on election fraud that says that there was no in fact no election fraud in 2020. But the both sides is argument is like of course there was election fraud the election was stolen, and the equal time browser then shows me like a equal number of articles that say the election was stolen. See, I thought the, I thought the side by side metaphor was important. So I think it shows you to because if it shows you it shows you a huge number you immediately turn off I mean that's, that's part of how saturation censorship works. So it, the trick would be to find the one that's similar to what you're looking at but but different enough that it, it pops at you would engage in you know it triggers the curiosity about well wait a minute. Some things are clearly the same between these two and some things are clearly different. And what are those things and let me look at that let me find that. And either does it by, if you're using a phone, you got to have another screen. But if you use in a browser on a computer conceivably it could be actually the left and the right screen. Anyone with thoughts contributions. Please go ahead Gil. Sorry, I couldn't raise my hand apologize. The God, there, there are some, some new sites that have emerged that are trying to do something like this John I don't remember the names of them maybe you've seen some of them they're trying to provide some sort of balancing. I compared to the great bit a couple of years ago where you brought out Bill knife for debate with a client climate deniered like equal time to people, and then flooded the stage with, you know, 98 other scientists to kind of display the, the, the, what the array of opinion is that it's not just one to one equal equal positions but a real lopsided perspective on this. I had something else but oh yeah. And just to something you said earlier about authoritarianism, Trump and capitalism for me that sort of sidesteps the question of who owns governments. Yeah. And these are not separate and independent entities and that's, you know, part of the path to fascism which is what I think one of our major concerns right now. I've been running running around as one of the people saying climate is the most important issue on the planet and I am coming to think that we don't get to deal with the climate issue if we don't deal with rising fascism issue. I'm, and I agree with that. I mean that part of the reason I'm interested in leaning on trust and trying to rebuild trust is that we don't get to talk. Period, until we solve some of those things done. The only chance is that the only way to deal with climate change in particular cutting co2 is going to be some kind of overreaching authoritarian structure. I don't like to think that but it might be that it's the only possible way of getting the leverage. So the closest thing we have to that at scale on the world today is Xi Jinping in China was kind of making himself president for life. I was reading comments yesterday that were like, China is probably leading the green revolution and really really like way out there, but has just as many coal fired plants as it as it used to etc etc I don't know but it feels like comments. No that's, thank you Ken. I'm like I read too many things yesterday so I got confused about what where. You're totally right. So so how does, how does that, like, if anybody if anybody could do that today, right in some kind of organized fashion, it would be China. And they're doing that and Doug that's exactly the one of the dilemmas that we face now. You know, if that's the trade off what do we do. Well, will you accept authoritarianism as the price for a stable plan. And, you know, Mao Zedong famously did the for pest campaign one of those pests was sparrows, they killed off all the sparrows in China and then had a famine for several years because the sparrows were eating pests that were tearing you know, that were eating their crops. So authoritarianism is well informed authoritarianism might be super interesting. It's also caused like enormous grief. So I'm like how do you make the right decisions grace than mark. So, wow, this is a really rich conversation it's really in my hill house so the first thing is that you're talking about like the rise of whatever you're calling it fascism totalitarianism authoritarianism. And from anyone who's not in the United States, it's really obvious you guys are there. There's no question that that is a totalitarian state to anybody who's ever lived in one or lived in one that used to be one. And it's very interesting that the Americans of many Americans I find extremely confused because they think they're living in a free country. And they're like what's all this censorship going on and why is you to banning people and why are people being the platform. And you can see the people are you like you can see Mark and the people who aren't in the United States, it's obvious to everyone in the world the situation you guys are at. You've got, you know you have, you know, it's, it's really upsetting for as somebody who was born there to just watch this. And, and so the first thing is to not be confused about where we are. And we don't have even local censorship in that case we have global censorship because the United States government is dictating what YouTube and what Twitter and what Facebook can publish, and what Google and the Google results and Google and all these organizations have said, yep, we're going to publish this specifically around COVID. They had no problem with flat earth, but they do have a problem with scientists saying certain things about the vaccines, including the, you know, like people who are very authoritative on these matters. So this is a really big problem so that when John is talking about you know how do we show that the experts are more expert than someone else like the Brexit is a perfect example like a friend of mine was telling me in Britain. They were trying to show fair coverage exactly what you were talking about like both sides, and they'd have to bring an economist and a person off the street, because they couldn't find one economist in all of Britain, who was pro Brexit. And so it's like, okay, you know that's not equality like you said that's stupidity, and say, you know, well we got as many people on the street who are regular citizens who disagree with this and no economists. So, but but the thing is that right now you have scientists losing their jobs for saying things that are against what the CDC has, or against various things you have a highly politicized scientific organization. Everything is run by money in one way or another I mean anybody who hasn't, you know, I can provide references on this but you might disagree with the references and you might disagree with me which is great we're having a conversation you disagree with me it's great. But the thing is that now we're in a situation where the top universities are corrupted by money. And so now we don't even know who the experts are and it's just a dire dire situation when you're trying to talk about how do we display. We don't have any great expertise. When all of our institutions and I think almost everybody here like if I said, okay, you know, raise the number of figure, fake fingers of institutions that you trust right now, you know we don't be going like this. Right, because maybe one or two, you know like it's like yeah, it's we. And so that's one one part. The second part is about totalitarianism, and would that help us deal with climate change and I don't see evidence of that not with China not with you do not see evidence. And, first of all with China but second of all, with how almost every country in the world is handling the pandemic, maybe with the exception of China and Japan and Korea, you know like there's three or four that are like okay. But the rest of them it's like yeah if these guys could run anything like preventing mass death from a biological threat, then I'd be like okay maybe we should put them in charge of climate change to. And it's just, it's, there isn't a word for how appalling and egregious and horrifying the government handling. And that's everywhere of the pandemic is there's just no words for how incompetent that is. Oh yeah well but if we had it, you know some good, like, we're that's that dream is gone. These institutions have are evolving out. And we really need to look at biomimicry we really need to look at biological systems we really need to look at decentralized systems. And unfortunately we don't have time. And it will take time, but I don't think there's an alternative and we really need to start looking at protocols and when I think about distributed systems, distributed human systems, I think about three that need to be there for that to work. And one is communications methodologies. And you know money is the one I talk about the most often that's clearly, you know, if you have a measurement and but for climate change it would be agreements and interoperability protocols around ecological standards so you know there are things that would be able to say okay, this is this is soil it's getting healthier. This is air that's getting healthier this is water that's getting healthier and and maybe not everybody uses the same standard but the protocols are interoperable so interoperability protocols and communications protocols that that's what you need in order for it to be a global organization, even though it's not coming from above. So we need to look at each other and understand where each other stand. The second one is sort of a it is sort of so that's so that is the communication protocol so one is sort of the standard. You know, this thing and the second one is kind of the law, which is the set of values and set of rules like okay it, you know your country your region your city has to be going down instead of up in terms of their carbon footprint like that like some protocols that would say this is what we're measuring. And again protocols are very, they're very complex we have them all the time like, okay do you raise your hand that's a protocol right you drive on this side of the street or that side of the street you have all these protocols about how to behave. And then that usually goes with a mythology or, you know, some sort of shared story, right, the American dream shared story. And so, I think those three things are the elements like the communication methods, the communication protocols, the laws, and the stories, and that's what creates a distributed systems and we're very long off from there but that's what I think our best hope is. Anyway, so those are a bunch of different topics that touch on the different things that John brought up. And almost everything you mentioned is extremely OGM me and is like in the heart of where I think we're aiming. All our efforts aren't political or in that nature but but very much about the protocols and communication platforms very much about the laws regs and really a lot about the stories means tropes that govern everybody's behavior so grace thank you for for putting that in the conversation, you like grew our radar by doing that. Mark can then Pete. Peter you deciding to step up for Q. Okay, so sorry, Mark that can. Yes. Thank you, grace, you covered so much ground here. Just want to add something to do in ways I've been saying you know the origin of the word tyrant is Roman. And some tires tyrant. I know, I'm just joking. We have tires that didn't have tires. Oh, right. There were tyrants before they were tires. Exactly. Exactly. Well, the thing was, so the Senate would elect a tyrant. Right. And this one specific duty so that person would have full power to execute one thing. And if that person will keep power which happened, usually would be murdered. And that is pretty much seen in many other different civilization, including the chaos. And, and what I found fascinating in the rhetoric of having one centralized government that would decide for everybody else. That's the autocratic right is as always failed. And no matter where you look at it, it has failed. And that's probably why in some degrees, the United States is also on the way down, rather than on the way up. And decentralization as a mean of governments, governance is probably what is required today to fix a problem because the problems are not they look global, but they're local. There's a real barrier in between a decentralized future and the status quo, which is these things, I mean one of many barriers are these things called nations that feel very strongly about their borders that run rampant on their populations and have lots of external effects so. Yes, but you know, even even even at the size of a small country like France. The realities where you live in Brittany, you live in the south, so you live in the north, in the east was a center. Very different realities. Ken. So, this is a continuation of the conversation that you and I were in yesterday, or that I can remember we started it about Russia as this repair my bed costs or someone. You know, I watched with horror as one man undid 50 years worth of environmental legislation and progress, you know, and it's like. I don't think we have come to grips with the fact that people who run arms industries and fossil fuel industries have this enormous power and they really don't give a flying fuck about anything except for their power and their and their money. What is it going to take for us to come face to face with that, and digest that and stand up in a way that's actually effective. And that was what I wanted to put out for a breakout room, and I need to leave in about 20 minutes, I can't stay for the whole call today, but you know, I think this is something that people have avoided this you know we have to confront the genius of people who are mercenary and don't have any real care for harm they're they're creating they don't seem to have any conception that they're part of an historical tradition and that that we're we have a lot of people can behind them. There doesn't seem to be anything in their thinking that connects them to a line of ancestry and descendants. So what will it take for us to actually get real on that and come up with a plan that works, because I think we're running out of time we're running out of options. And that seems to be the elephant in the room that, and it's interesting that that elephant is the power as the symbol for the GOP. So, you know, I don't hear people talking about that it's like, well you know we're making progress here make a progress there we're going to do this and I just don't see it happening I'm really really concerned. Thanks. Pete. I want to thank Grace for her distributed humans thing I think that's the right answer. And can I also agree with you. I want to note that the problem there isn't particular people, it's social structures that allow one psychopathic human to have that much power. I, it's taken me a while to kind of realize that because I was like oh if only, if only Rupert Murdoch hadn't existed or if only you know whoever it is didn't exist but the problem isn't a person there's always going to be somebody who volunteers to step into being the capital asshole. It's the problem is really that we've set up social structures that centralized power and centralized money in a way that means that somebody's going to be at the top and maybe they'll be a good guy and probably they won't. I think you would love nominations from anybody on the call to your favorite distributed adventures like who's actually trying to solve who is getting somewhere in solving for this in a distributed way. And how does that work. How do you have distributed governance models on topics like slavery or sex trafficking or whatever like what, what, what, what, what, how do we how do we get somewhere globally. That's fair with a lot of distributed autonomy. You mean, you mean, you mean in our white mid world. No, I mean for everybody. But, but are there some basic human like, for instance, in the US like, should slavery be a thing that's just up to states. Should the state be able to decide whether people can hold slaves. And there was at one point a national decision made that nope nope slaves slavery slavery in its traditional form anyway, but forget wage slavery other other modern forms of bondage. But but that thing got made illegal nationwide by the federal government. What's the equivalent worldwide. And is that an issue that should be illegalized worldwide. I'd like to talk about who's doing great work on that. But, you know, like me is really the answer but I can talk about some of the other projects as well. And, you know, the problem is that it doesn't pay to be a revolutionary. I mean we're seeing some interest, you know, Hallow chain I would say is doing the most interesting infrastructure in that area in terms of creating a decentralized system. And they're way behind on delivery and whether it's going to work and etc etc those are all very big questions, because they're trying to replace everything about the internet, including the boxes, including, you know, the hardware the software the internet protocol the addressing protocol because they recognize that in order to become independent. You really have to become independent you can't say we're going to still use some of that parts because you get sucked into it again. And I think that that is part of that. And you can look at, you know, so that's really one of the projects and you can look at the other one that I think is doing good work is region network, which is working on the. And they're they're working on protocols for regeneration. When it comes to governance, I'm not impressed by the other stuff because you know I have a very large ego but the way that I'm envisioning it is as a like a layered tier of reputational protocols. Okay, so how does that look like I as an individual have a protocol have a reputation and that reputation is granted to me by the different organizations that I belong to. So here I have a certain reputation and you know that might be good or bad or whatever but I might have an OGM reputation that you guys have about me. Now that might be digitized in a way I could carry it around and then I've got maybe your reputation that I'm a good driver or bad driver, or you know, a reputation as a frisbee player or whatever that is and so I have these tiered reputations in that are coming from organizations. Now each one of those organizations has reputation as well. It might be my town, let's say my town has reputation for, you know, allowing slavery, for example, or for throwing out the old people, or for, you know, sharing all the food equally or whatever it is my my so there's my reputation and then it's wrapped inside of my town's reputation, and that would could include a carbon footprint or however we some of these ecological protocols, and then that might go out to the region. I see this as eventually either supplementing or completely replacing money. Like okay well if you come from this region so you could think about this in the EU right inside the EU, let's say I've got a healthcare card from Slovenia. That might be good everywhere in the EU because the EU countries said okay we're going to you know if you've got free healthcare in Slovenia that means you get free healthcare and the next country over. That's what we've done for for example for our cell phones right. If you've got a cell phone from one country it works in the other country, and that's part of your package and we've got an agreement about that. So your reputation could work the same way okay and so if I go to somewhere and I show my health card, I get services. And then if I do that too much they're like this person never lives in their home and doesn't pay any taxes or whatever it is right so you can have all these multi tiered things. And in the same way you might say okay well we live next to this community that allows for slave trade. And if we don't provide them any of our services, because they're known for that. And maybe to get to some point all of us around, you know all the towns around those sit down say look we got to do something about this guys. What are we going to do it might be peaceful it might be whatever but like what are we going to do about the one rogue town or that town doesn't share their food and whatever it is. So, that's how I see a federated system working as this kind of layered reputation reputation lever and you might be like well where's the governance, and the governance is completely distributed in that case which means that based on who you are we decide how we're going to handle you and it's the if you have a good gossip protocol or something it's like, you can go and you can say hey I'm from this town and I understand that you guys have developed some really great intellectual printing, you know 3D printing of the of chipsets or recycling of lithium so that we can create new whatever's. And they might and they're like, let's look at your town's reputation and see what you might be doing with this lithium that you recycle off of the right, or the silicon that you recycle. And, and are we going to share our IP with you, because IP who who the heck pays for that anymore it's just free it's IP, you know who. But if you, you know it's like, I don't know about it you guys have been you know whatever your carbon footprint isn't really good or whatever you're trying to improve it is that why you want this. You know, and then you decide are you going to share or not with them, so that it could be used as a coordination mechanism it can be used as a trade mechanism and for different kinds of privileges. And that's where governance is going to come in and I don't think. I mean it's not ideal but that's how bio systems work. Right. It's like okay you know one part of the body it's like oh I'm running now my entire body has to figure out okay we need to you know the heart needs to pump up more and whatever so it's a little bit like biomimicry. Yeah, I'm although, although an organism let's say human body has a bunch of things that it just must maintain must maintain or it dies where communities sitting next to each other. Maybe, maybe not so much like they could have very different sorts of organizations and not not kill off the whole land, at least not for a long time. So, I mean, if your pH gets out of whack or your salt balance gets out of whack or whatever. You're like your organism, your whole body just dies, and that degree of coupling and interdependence I think is hard to find in among the cities for example. I think that problem. Yeah, I think part of the problem is how callous we are right like if you're bought as many cells of your body we're dying as people are dying in cities, your body would respond. So, actually, that's not true. We're just, there's something, it's like, it's like our cities are living with cancer in them and just being like, oh so what there's cancer will just lock off that organ and lock off this organ. So it's not true it's just there's something like, it's like it reminds me of that Monday Python thing where the so the guy had his arms cut off and he's like, come at me. It's just a flesh wound. It's just like that. Yeah. And Grace, could you on the matter most check would do mind putting some links to it for us to your work because I think we'd love to get more acquainted. Yeah, and connect you into to what we're doing etc. Kill please. Yeah, I love where this conversation is going and I think it deserves a lot more time and another time. That's one vote for that grace I think I think Jerry is right that they're the coupling in physical organisms makes all the difference in the world in social organisms, subtractions interpretations of physicality it's interpretations of value. And we differ very much there and by a mimicry biological systems it's concrete molecules fit into each other or they do not period doesn't matter what your opinion is about that. So that's part of the challenge we have here. You know the the kind of decentralized voluntary association that we're talking about makes a whole lot of sense and a lot of levels arguably an enormous amount of sustainability progress in the world has been developed through voluntary associations. The ISO standards NGOs freshering corporates corporates adopting protocols and agreements and interoperability and supply chain management and so forth that then sometimes is driven by government but it's often picked up later by governments. So that's a very interesting dynamic I think it's an example of a lot of things in this conversation that are dichotomous that are you know opposites intention with each other it's not clear to go one way or the other. So that that system in in the you know the the economics corporate sustainability system works because the world is globalized. It's hard to imagine it working in a decentralized world with decentralized economies without universal standards across the planet so there's another dichotomy, you know to the communities with reputations. The I could boycott the neighboring communities that supports the slave trade, or I could engage with them and try to talk them out of it or I could invade them and conquer them and force them to the goodness of my ways. Right. Very tricky stuff and with regard to reputation. Hong Kong had a reputation. A lot of people grew or you know born there grew up there even moved there because of its reputation and all of a sudden, you know, she's reputations taken over theirs. And it's not like people decide to move to Hong Kong to live in G system of people who grew up there had a very different idea of who they were. All of a sudden can't have that idea. And some of them are in prison for the rest of their lives already and some of them will have to build their own prisons around their own selves to be able to survive there. So it's a very tricky mess. You know, tangled and multifaceted, you know, Ken, Ken commented that the Schmuckler in parable tribes does a great job of diagnosing the problem which is that in any kind of collection of society is the one that is most of the one that is most powerful and aggressive will tend to dominate from the ones were more passive and collaborative and Ken points out that he doesn't have ideas about how to address the problem. Because it's a very gnarly. It's what Chauncey would call a mess, not a problem problems to just solution mess just a tangle of trouble that's really hard to untangle, and it requires something else of us that we're not familiar with. I don't even know what that is. Thanks, Gil. And then I haven't read parable the tribes which I know probably ought to because the thing I was about to put in the conversation was an internal puzzle for me a sad puzzle which is communities that figure out how to live in community on the Commons around the world and our relatively pacifist are consistently constantly and eternally run over by more violent tribes nearby that have better weapons. And that's exactly what that book is exploring. Yeah, and that just happens all the time consistently. The colonial era is the perfect example of it and destroyed worldwide wisdom it was there was ethnocide at the global scale. And everybody's like yay, you know, industrialism one capitalism one now we have consumerism, all of which are sort of eating our brains. So, so I think partly what we're describing is what does a distributed insurgency look like against the world systems against the dominant systems. And I would love as a small side note but important side note I would love sort of an honest perspective on Holochain the project where it stands what it's doing because I'm a, I think Arthur Brock is a certifiable genius and I've been following meta currency for probably two decades. So I care a lot about what they're building and where they're going and I just haven't followed closely enough to understand. Are they sort of reaching either viability or critical mass or any of those kinds of things and it doesn't look like it like I'm not. It feels like a really dicey proposition at this point. And I'd love to have a diagnostic about like what went wrong what could have been done better different. Who else is picking up some of these pieces because they're working pretty openly and a lot of the piece parts are available. And, and in the spirit of MATLAB, which is a young people's math competition, where the algorithmic results for each of the, there's like a challenge posed with it with a timer. Everybody poses solutions to the problem, and the performance of the solution is charted, and, and all of the solutions are open source so you can take the solution and tweak it and improve it and if your results are better on the quiz. Then you, you are the present winner, and they run it until the timer runs out and whoever has had the best solution sort of won that round way. And that's not a terrible model for solving larger scale social problems in a creative way to say hey, here's an open source solution for how to do this kind of thing, who can make it better. And not that everybody needs to use the same exact model, I think I believe in local adaptation of everything. Yes, Steve Jobs always always wanted everybody. Steve Jobs didn't trust anybody who hadn't taken LSD as well. How do we map this out. So, Pete. Thanks. I wanted to make an observation I said it in chat, but it seems to me that the problem is that we've got these super scale social structures that concentrate power and things like that. I mean, they, they compete outside of human influence kind of the social structures compete to evolve better social structures. We have co evolved, you know, over the past couple thousand years we have co evolved with those social structures getting bigger and more complicated and taking more power, and also being super productive right. Almost all of the, you know, innovation that we have over the past couple thousand years and all of the quality of life improvements, along with the quality of life deficits but we get a ton of benefit from watching these watching the scale happen this this the super scale social structures doing really incredible advancement what we think of as advancement at least maybe in the western world. And so one of the one of the problems I see even in this conversation kind of in the background it's like how can we kind of gradually move to a better thing right and I don't I don't think we get I don't think we get to do it gradually. So either maybe a bunch of decentralized humans decide to take over the planet from the super scale social structures or the planet does it for us. And that's kind of looks looks like we're we're kind of headed. We're going to get enough climate change challenges, and, you know, pandemics or whatever happening that the whole ship kind of just starts shaking apart, and we get decentralized humans thrust upon us. I don't know, you know, I don't know how that plays out. But I can kind of like start to think into the future and I think both of those things might happen kind of at the same time and I can also imagine one of the futures is we decentralize enough and get authoritarian enough that we have big cabals of ugly sets of, you know, smaller social structures but still big enough to be not human scale in the right way and just be nasty for humans and for the planet for another, you know, centuries or thousands of years. So a way to thread that needle maybe is to make sure that if the wheels are coming off or the vehicle is shaking apart to make it shake apart in a way that that is better instead of worse. So maybe that's a target. I don't know. Before passing the floor to grace and Doug. I want to note that we're past the 45 minute mark we've had one human check in so far, which I think means that we've turned this call into a salon around the topic. And that's okay because I love this conversation. I just you know, our normal check in rhythm of going around the room and seeing what's up has turned into it like this this frothy energetic conversation around around this topic. So we could set up. I could easily set up breakout rooms for anybody who wants to go into a different discussion. We could also decide to break this conversation up into several we got like 16 people in the call. Actually make that 15. See you again. And I'm happy to proceed as we are exactly right now. Any any feelings one way or the other. Stay the way we are. And then the train. Sounds reasonable. Cool. Then Doug then grace. Actually, Grace did you drop out because you changed your mind and then came back into the queue. I just thought you wanted to do a check in. Oh cool. And you're on the list for check ins on the spreadsheet to serve. So let's go Doug then back to grace for us. Okay, I've been thinking about method. How especially around climate change. And what I've come to is the following method. Try to work out in some detail the scenario of not making it. That is we live with constant temperature change. Rise. And we don't have the leverage to do it. Make that case as strong as possible. And then poke holes in it. And then look for, are there any holes? Because if there are some holes in that scenario, we should be following up on those. Otherwise we have such a plenitude of possibilities. We never find a focus of what to do. Thank you. Grace. So this question is like, you know, we don't have time and etc. Like I absolutely agree with what Pete says, like. We're not going to get the chance. And it's going to be the way it is, but it's. I mean, it's not going to be the way it is. It's not going to be about how bad it's going to be. And where it's going to be. And it's going to be different by region, but. You know, I think of it as like the mathematicians, right? Like from the, from, from the foundation series. We're just going through hell. Right? It's not like we're about to go hell through hell or we're about to go through the apocalypse. That's what we're doing right now. It's, it's just how it is. And there's a few people in little pockets. There's people in pockets trying to do these decentralized things. And none of us can scale it because we haven't even gotten it to work at a regional level yet. We just don't have anything to scale. And it's the same thing with hollow chain. Like you said, it's open source. You know, they keep everything you said is accurate. You know, there's some things I can't say about that having worked there for a few months and there's some things I can't say, but most of it's public. It's just, it's just obvious. And they're trying to solve something really, really, really hard. So it's, it's like, Oh, it's not going. It's like, okay. You know, next try next person. And I think that's where we all are. And I think that what. One of the things that I don't spend a lot of time doing is trying to get people to go to my project and so their project or, you know, go in one way. So the other way, I have this trust that we are part of an organism, and we know that we're part of a organism. We're part of a organism. We know that we're part of a organism. Whether. However aware we are. And, you know, however. Much acid we may or may not have dropped. It doesn't really matter. We're part of a something. And. That expresses ourselves in what we see the part of the problem that we want to solve to be. And that's fine. You know, I'm interested in a particular way of implementing a particular thing. And I'm interested in doing it a different way. And I think. We just trust in that that's all we've got. And no, we're not going to make it. It's going to be really disastrous, but enough of us hopefully we'll make it fast enough that it'll be 30,000 years instead of 30,000, you know, 300,000 years. That's, that's all we've got really. That's kind of my how to do it. So one of my hopes, even in the small group that is OGM at this point. And one of my hopes is that some of the people with big visions might somehow sit with one another. And maybe this is pair wise. I don't know. And figure out where the overlaps and parallels are. And if there's a, if there's a way to create sort of. Slime mold style merger events of some, of some sort. So that, so that, you know, we don't have 50 different initiative, but we have 20 different initiatives. And then we can figure out how to align and how to connect. And if the initiatives run counter to each other directly, like they have completely different conceptions of where the levers are, what to push, what to pull, that's really important to note in particular, if they're new, if they neutralize each other in some way, you know, hey, we need to build a Dyson fear and out of space. Hey, we need to grow a lot of forests. Those might coexist. They might not. And so I'm one of the things in the back of my head is how can we take our visions a manifest them so that they're usable, available, applicable, testable in the world be move them toward one another to figure out. Is this batch of stuff and this batch of stuff really the same thing just said in two elegant different ways. And if so, how do they work together to make that work? And then in the areas where they're really different, what does that mean? What else do they connect to? And how do we form a distributed kind of kind of like weather, red rover, red rover or whatever, except everybody's pulling in a slightly different direction, but kind of linked, you know, linked arms in these movements. And I don't know exactly what that is and trying to figure out how to get there. So let's go Doug then Bentley. Oh, I forgot to take my hand off, I'm sorry. No worries. that helped this and Grace talked about not having people draw people you know pull people from their projects to your own but I'm going to do that but I'll just throw it out there because it's very similar and to to what grace is talking about. So I've got a goal about project that, although not on distributed technology is distributed social societal problem solving where everyone gets a voice and just like I think john was saying before that kind of the equal time metaphor but instead of having that it's a place where everyone can go and if they find their thoughts their evidence or reasons for doing something there and they feel fully heard and expressed in that and they don't need to repeat. So it's not a war of who can talk the most or game the systems. It's more of making sure all the, all the sides are represented in a single kind of structured document that's the kind of things I and several other people working on in the canonical debate lab, which we hope eventually put on a distributed file system. So just to give you an idea of some of the projects are out there. So if any of this sounds interesting be sure and look around the OGM channels. I'm Bentley. Love that how and and haven't attended anything from canonical debate lab and several of you are kind of work we're kind of intermingled but we're not, you know, having idea sex at this point. And I'm wondering idea flirting. Yeah, exactly there's like the odd glance across the room is happening but but we're not really we're not really going at it in terms of how to how to blend improve and create a community that makes each of these ideas better. We're connecting them in some way. What might we do to do that. I think, I think the kind of debate lab considers ourselves a subgroup of OGM, we're just not in the matter most. Maybe we should kind of move there from slack. And then the other thing you're welcome to be there entirely that would be great. Another option maybe if we had a centralized place like this like the check in calls but maybe a project check in where the projects come on say what they're doing and by participants. It might be an interesting idea because I don't want to, you know, take up this kind of check in with those type of things, but maybe it probably would have been appropriate but if a piece of check in was you and Jamie reporting in some like crazy progress on some piece of this puzzle. I'd be like over the moon. I'd be over the moon and I think that those kinds of technical solutions social solutions things we've found are part of what what I'm hoping check in sort of creates and delivers is that mechanism where we're like, Hey, look what we did. And part of what we need more of is us understanding what the puzzle looks like and then people who care about different pieces of the puzzle running off and solving them or taking a swing at them with our with the rest of our help as much as we can and then bringing them back to the middle, which is kind of the check in and the channels we have a matter most and saying hey here look. Here's what we're up to. Yeah, maybe we could even make just a general centralized project check in and matter most a channel to where it's okay for us to just like spam with what's going on and people can jump into that stream when they have time. A piece of what I'm hoping we do is and maybe this is a piece of what Vincent is doing with Trove that we can use is that there's kind of a dashboard of what projects think of themselves as being affiliated with OGM in any way. And go to each of them and not just see name of project where's your website and what's up and sort of who's there, but actually sort of a current state of the of the project. So that it would be pretty simple to go do your own check in just by browsing through Trove, for example, or trove plus massive or need to sort of figure out where that information lives. But then our check in calls aren't just coming up to date. It's a little bit like one of the reasons I like Facebook and there's plenty of reasons to not like Facebook is that my conversations with people in my broad social circles are no longer. Hey, what's up with you. Oh we had a kid I got sick I traveled to whatever the conversations are not like, damn that trip to Belgium looked awesome. And I'm so sorry that your daughter had like tonsillitis. The peripheral vision we have now is so good into all of these different different kinds of communities that the nature of our conversations gets to change. So how do we do that with tools here, so that we're not bringing everybody up to speed each call on what our project is but rather here's here's what what cracked last week. So go look at this page to figure out exactly where we are, and let them like this is the progress or making. I'd love to see that. Yeah, I think putting that in trove is a brilliant idea. And of course, or man and or man. Or metawiki. Massive. Yeah, hey, I almost had it. Massive matter wiki most. Right, right. They're all blending in my mind class. Yeah, I think what fits into this conversation we had in this in this course for evolutionary leadership, a conversation with Noah Peterson, which I, which, which really to me was an eye opener because I specifically asked a question about how do you, how do you move millions of people into a different direction. And what, and why is it Donald Trump succeeding to inspire millions of people but then, on the other hand, we, we get wrapped up in, in knots now trying to figure out how, how to do that. So she was. I'm going, I was laying out to her here is you will hurry this auto show me that there is don't know the metals and how here's how this all sort of fits together in how these leading thinkers have come to a theory of social systems intervention. And she was very passionately in saying that Cambridge Analytica, you know is one example how a Trump can happen in in this modern contextualized communication structure, but under, but the opposite of doing good is not Cambridge Analytica Right, I mean, and then I'm going, well, why not. I mean, the whole point is, you need to have a unifying theory, you need to have. And this is Donald, Donald, I meant, Meadows model, you have to have a narrative that guides you know that guides the organization that guides the, the, the overall direction. And then that needs to be contextualized into different parts of the economy because it means different things to to people who are working in various roles within the economy. So why not take the Cambridge Analytica method that takes pieces of information that all lead back to the same route, but contextualized the information differently. And I think we need to. And this is what Pete was saying in the, in the, just as I joined here decentralization works for you and an arcade of course it works. Exactly what they're doing, they have a unifying idea, which they then distribute and enable empower individual actors, no to function, of course to for no all the wrong reasons, but why not apply that, you know, and use it for good to use it to support people to go into a community and assess, you know what needs to be done here what can be done here, and then engage and be supported by a structure, you know that that that brings that brings together the, the, the tools and the processes that are needed to develop within a community and secure a community from an ecosystem perspective food system biodiversity perspective. So that was a little long, but, but, you know, I think we just need to grab on to, here's the right thing to do. You know, here's what the community really should should look like to secure itself. That's what we can build around this to develop that. And, alas, we have really divergent views about what the best thing to do might be apparently many countries just split 5050 like almost down the middle in different ways so that that's hard for everybody inside of one of these artificial things we call countries. It's not hard for communities that are linking up across the world in virtual spaces, it's like, you know, they're gathering up in game be or theory you or what have you, and lots of different communities that are trying to sort this out. And then two things I just wanted to add to what you said one is that I think one of the reasons I'll hold a lot of people support Trump and people like Trump is the rest of the conversation we've had here. The world is broken and the systems of the world are all corrupt and broken. And I'm, I'm exaggerating there's some systems that actually work that are functional, but in general people don't see a better future for themselves. And I think a lot of in the in the jobs to be done framework of you, you buy a copy to search to you hire a copy to serve a particular job in your day. And people hired Trump to break the system. And they didn't mind if he was corrupt and if he got wealthy and his buddies got his chronic got wealthy doing it because there was a chance that this clown was going to actually destroy the system enough that something else could climb in its place and people like Steve Bannon are busy planning for that apocalypse so that they can be the ones who install the new OS of authoritarian populism that runs the next couple centuries that's like I think Steve Bannon is big hope. As I said, we have a whole bunch of really interesting interesting genuinely caring people who are busy trying to figure out how does the distributed they work, and how do we make decisions together how do we, how do we aim toward like human thriving, etc. And, and who knows how that works. And then, another part of what you said about Donald Donald Donald meadows and her points of intervention, you know leverage points in a system. There's no instrument knowledge like that, so that it's easily available and more usable to people who are trying to tip systems like I see Donald like quoted all the time. I don't. And maybe that just means everybody should read the, read the paper and just go act on it. But I think there's more interesting ways to figure out how to apply meadows thinking and Lynn Ostrom thinking and indigenous thinking and like like the example of looking at stewardship and so forth. Like, how do we instrument them so that they're more usable and useful so that instead of being trapped in Gmail jail. We're actually in an environment where these ideas are usable. What I mean by contextualizing the information. So what does what does a farmer have to know about climate change about soil about water in order to act outright what does a restaurant owner need to know. What does an office where or what does a housewife with children need to know. And, and I think it's, it's this kind of contextualization that doesn't necessarily go into the very big picture but it goes into what do I need to secure myself within this community. Well, it's another place where the dichotomies are just inescapable. I need to know my place. I need to know the dynamics and relationships and trajectories of the place that I live so I can adapt to here. But finding the context for that requires global information and global information systems and international coordination so the dynamic in the global localism is a really rich and interesting and very tricky. I mean, different kinds of layers of coordination and governance that we've through all that. It's hard to draw systems diagram of the world looks like spaghetti not like an organization. And to complicate matters for what you're aiming for Gil, we're entering this kind of weird sort of Stalinist era of around data and statistics. There was an ecoism kind of worldwide where so when that when the statistics started not serving the Soviet leaders they basically got rid of the statisticians and started ignoring statistics and they were like, Nope, not a good discipline. And they sort of deprecated a lot of really smart people who were trying to help build the great Soviet state and really screwed things up. Globally, the deprecation or our intentional undermining of science facts journalism, electoral systems and, you know, trust in each other is doing that to us for sort of in this global mud pile that resembles Vladimir Surkin's fog on the battlefield, which has us in, you know, like the nonlinear war that is something like that. Like, like, we're just kind of in that Meyer, so that clarity, I think will be valued and appreciated it's just really hard to get to. And when you have systems of systems of systems that are all interacting and reinforcing each other. I, the systems diagram or who can, who can illustrate that I have not met. I feel this empowered at the community level. But they clearly understand that we have a problem with our water. We have a, we have a problem with with quality with our local food supply but they feel helpless, you know, in in doing much about it. And that is where I mean Stuart, one of our fellows here has the idea of impact specialists, right he puts an impact specialist into the community, who then talks with interested parties or with sympathetic parties. What can we do about this how can we tackle this problem. And that's, that's what the idea of a, of a innovation spoken as the impact specialist, going to a community, know what to look for now, gather the, the things that need to be fixed where people have already an opinion about wanting to fix it, but not knowing how to go about it. I feel like what class was just saying about the innovation brokers and our conversations about human routers next to good data and all that kind of thing. This feels like a description of a service core that would be really useful to have and, and there are some sort of there's like gap year, and a bunch of other entities that do interesting things. So we could approach one of these groups and try to describe what this thing looks like so that young people trying to figure out what to do between college or whether or not to go to college, for example, could actually spend a year or two, becoming these kinds of people who understand where resources are trying to be of help locally in a completely local appropriate way etc etc. Yeah, a possible P this isn't a solution. But it's a, it's an element, it's something to include is a kind of modular scalable dashboarding and a name on this is Katie Patrick, probably already in the brain. Because you know you just you put this thing out and you don't, you don't try to hit people on the head with the context but you do try to you know you publish this number which is the, the solidity, you know the number of this different kinds of things in your water and then this kind of thing going on in the air and this kind of thing going on in the electricity consumption, and you keep it very simple, so that it's defendable in terms of its accuracy, the implications, that's a different conversation that's a conversation that is multi level, and it goes on in the sub communities where, you know, that is the context for that community and the way for it to occur. But the main thing is you get the dashboard up. You, you make sure it's pretty accurate, and you don't try to make it say more you know you don't go out to three decimal places you say look. We figured out the error on this and this is the, you know, we're definitely within the air range of what we're claiming. And what does it mean, you know, there's several interpretations here's one of them. Sorry I had to change seats. Well that's good we've had one person check in and it took us a really long ways. Thanks Don. And can who is next in the spreadsheet dropped off grace you've mentioned a few things did you want to check in a different way. You know that really, you know those check ins were really up my alley. I have nothing else to say that turned out to be really perfect. Awesome. Bentley you were also on the spreadsheet for checking in. It's anything else you'd like to put on the table. Selfishly. I posted in the town hall as I would, I did an experimental podcast with a group of people including a regular rhetoric professor will we do a. Feedback see whether this is something people want to exist, where we kind of do a sports center play by play on public arguments between James people and talk about how they could approve that process. And since we're a group that has a lot of deliberators, and I thought you all might find it interesting and could tell me whether we're should pursue this idea. Thank you. I'll go look I mean I'm reminded of Mystery Science Theater 2000. Kind of on Twitter yeah. Yeah, because because having a sense of humor about these things really helps it diffuses a lot of tension. It kind of helps and so kind of serious humor is a useful container or tone to hit in some of these things. Yeah, I probably should actually look for an actual comedian there's several podcasts where it's like a lawyer and a comedian and there's politician and a comedian so if anyone knows anybody who enjoys that that would. So, what's his name, darn it. There's a comedian who has Patriot Act, which was a really interesting Hassan Minaj. I think I could actually get anyone on the show. Yeah, well, well, I mean, anyone knows them and introduction be appreciated. Yeah, one of the interesting things about Patriot Act was that Hassan it's basically like john Oliver. He sits at a desk and has a little rectangle next to him with a couple illustrations Hassan is standing on a live stage and they have some really sophisticated graphics people who are busy using the background, it's a complete surround set it's not AR or XR or anything like that. But it's an immersive set and their data people like if we knew anybody who knew anybody who who's who's like on his data crew and visualization crew that might be a really really interesting avenue and I don't think they're doing Patriot Act but what does that what does the next step of that look like. Yeah that's a very OGM a idea to do compelling visualizations and kind of a touch, not a talk show format but a presentation format. I like that. That's a different idea than we're pursuing here. Yeah, yeah, that's sorry. And also like what would it be like to have people with different political persuasions using the same set of tools to present their commentary on it. So, you know, Lindsey Graham could be up on stage next to Hassan or something like that. I don't know. Yeah, it'd be interesting. We're near the end of our 90 minutes. Why don't I just go back to normal check in mode and just ask for whoever else would like to step in and check in. And Lauren we we we went to the spreadsheet to try to do a different kind of check in where people sign themselves up and then john was the first on the spreadsheet so we went there and we have spent most of the call talking about the questions that john made on the table early on. Doug go ahead. Yeah, I want to come back to john's view about the dashboard. I think the dashboard is actually a doable project with this group. It could spread rapidly, because it's a picture a believable picture of what's going on, I think would be helpful. And dashboards at which level at the individual venture level at the social level at the. I think it should have different levels that should there should be a global. There should be a regional and it should be local. I think the global one looks like the guy holding up the bull, the sign that says shit is bullshit and fucked up, but the global one has things like parts per million CO2. What's happening with temperatures. What's happening with fisheries. It could have maybe 20 issues that stay up to date with the data. That would be informing to anybody who was interested in particular to reporters I think would be helpful. Yeah. So one of my, one of my wishes is that individuals with strong points of view and some narrative, some storytelling skill, pick up data like that and each have a point of view expressed online somewhere in a usable way like a dashboard but more like a dashboard that is connected then to the underlying data of their argument. And so, yeah, and Gilles pointing out there's a bunch of statistically oriented sites there's also a gap minder from, you know, Rosling and company. And they're around COVID there were there was Johns Hopkins and a bunch of other sites just tracking COVID health and vaccination rates and mortality and all that kind of thing so so sort of place by place there are a bunch of different sites that are available. But, but, but I think that just Ross, like, Azim azar has a newsletter and every every week, he puts in there like what the parts per million are this week, and you get numb to the number. You're like, Oh, that looks really bad but it was really bad last week I don't know how to be angrier about it or more upset about it. So you could set a narrative around it and then be connections to what to do to like go, go, go connect I think it gets really powerful really fast. And people are already doing different pieces of what I'm describing this great storytellers out there, there's data collections. There's a little bit of dashboards going on how do we how do we connect them into a functional whole. I think overlaying the data dashboard with narratives was way it down too much there too many narratives. I keep them separate doesn't mean to not develop the narratives which I really believe in. But it's as a method I think just doing the dashboard by itself in an attractive way across the dashboards that people are doing now that you mentioned. I just mentioned I wouldn't obliterate the data on the dashboards I leave the dashboards entirely but I would then bring up a level a layer a generation of people with strong opinions and storytelling skills to use that data well Stacy. I was just going to say to what you were talking about and john and Bentley, I would suggest going to groups like brave rangels where they're already participants that come from different opinions, but also have that ability to talk together and to have constructive arguments and to use that as a population to try out some of your different projects rather than just looking for extremes, which is just going to cause more division. It's a great idea to go to groups like brave rangels who care about this and haven't you know interested in interesting people etc. Who knows somebody and brave rangels, I think we all probably do. It would be great to just like have the capacity to glance at well, anyone of us could do a LinkedIn search for ourselves and brave rangels and figure out what our links are but it'd be great to be able to do like for everybody on this call. So that's that search. And here, here are the here are the proximities here that you're the overlaps enhance. Go ahead, Gil. When, when we were building the first corporate sustainability dashboards back in the late 90s. A lot of people saw them as analytical tools to see data and slice and dice data which of course they were. But the story we told us that this is like, this is like the council fire that for thousands of years at the end of every day we would sit in the circle around the fire. We would sit on the fire and each other and telling the story of what happened that day and what we think might happen the next day. And so we saw the dashboard as a, as a, as a, as a, as a venue for a different kind of conversation. So people could look at the vital signs look at the trends, say hey well that's that as you know that provokes me what about this other trend, and then talk. And in that talk, you know values and concerns surface and the possibility of finding a path together surfaces. So you know highly technical tool as an enabler for something very soft and rich, which I think is what we're talking about here. Agreed. And how do we provoke more of those conversations and make them more fruitful. Any other thoughts. Anyone else want to check in class. Yeah, I mean at the end of the day. We want to have millions of people change the behavior and adapt to a different world. And there is that's no way no way a more profound than in the way we call our food and consume food. Because it is just one simple statistics, we need to use cover crops in order to restore soil back to health. There's only 12% of farmers are using cover crops and those 12% the vast maturity of them are being terminated with Kyphosate before they mature to then make room for what they call the cash crop which is typically a GMO crop that's being raised with more chemicals to change that the farmer needs a market to sell into. In order for that to happen, we need to change our menus because cover crops are more like legumes pulses. Yeah, and and they are they are integrated into every other ancient cuisine around the world, not in the US where we completely mocked up our diet. So, so that needs to be understood, you know, by so many people who would then, who then, who then are prepared and have reasons to change their diet but for a number of four for different perspectives maybe for health reasons, you know, not for environmental reasons and so on. So that message needs to be modulated and contextualized to different to mean something to different groups of people. So it's very technical in some ways, you know, to induce this kind of of change. You just reminded me of, there's a hobby out there, believe it or not called rolling coal, which is basically changing how your engine works on a big truck so that it will emit a lot more smoke. And it is absolutely a pushback a backlash against conservation and all those kinds of things, and people get together and and have like rolling coal parties and contests and. I don't know, they must have like seasickness pills along the way. There's also another hobby that was popular maybe a decade ago called just on the coal. It's fascinating because it damages your vehicles it costs them more money but it pisses off us. Exactly. Part of the band and strategy I'm convinced has been to do stuff that is so ballsly stupid to drive us into sputtering apoplectic immobility. Look at the conversations on Facebook over the past five years and you see an enormous drift to just, you know, just complaining isn't that terrible look do you believe how stupid the other side is rather than generative conversations. Yes, and I believe the bumper stick around this is making liberals cry. And, but I want to, I want to hold up rolling coal opposite hypermiling, which was a hobby I don't know in the 90s or some some couple decades ago, and hypermiling was, hey, look how far I can make my cargo on a mile of gas. And all kinds of strategies from the simple ones like coasting when you're downhill you know just engaging the engine to like pretty exotic things and hypermiling got big. How do we create a bunch of social contagious social things that are in fact good for the earth. And how do we lance the anger boil that creates things like rolling coal. Right. I don't know the answer that but but if we could if we could generate if we could invent a generative hobby like free hugs that was easy to easy to implement absolutely socially contagious and good for the earth. That's a big win if a lot of people pick it up and start doing it like if the number of people who played Pokemon go got up and went and did something fruitful. That's a big dent. Pete. I like that trade. Thanks for those. I wanted to ask class class is there a place where where do you talk about maybe the top three things about improving food systems like cover crops that we eat rather than cover crops that we throw away. So there are there are a lot of platforms. There's a lot of discussions. What is missing is the socio economic perspective of what this all means. Because the the there's there's a lot of clarity in USDA, you know, the bills that talks about it, the farm associations are talking about it. But at the end of the day, it won't nothing will happen until a few million people decide that they want to participate in this. So it's the socio economic component that hasn't been addressed. And that needs to happen at community level because here you need to engage, for example, the school catering company that needs that means a lot of mothers need to engage and and demands that their children get healthy food in the schools. It's the hospitals that are now starting to focus on nutrition to to round off their treatments. So it is happening in this hyper local context. But again, they are they are Marco level understandings of what needs to be done, but to translate that into people accepting and understanding it within their own frame that is the challenge. I'm, I'm interested. I'm thinking about, I guess, just something that that called to me just now. I'm interested in a website that has maybe like the top three awareness things about changing our food systems. I guess what I want is a link that I post on Twitter and keep posting on Twitter and post everywhere I can think of. You know, here's the, not everything and not in lots of complex detail, but you know, if, if I want the world to be a better place, what are like the three things that I should be thinking of, we're starting to see those. I don't know that it reminds me a little bit of all the pandemic information we've got way too much pandemic information and it's really hard to find it, but it's where it's really hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff. But at the same time, people have gotten into a rhythm of finding a few resources that they can listen to and they go, okay, I understand, I understand vaguely why I would wear a mask and I understand vaguely why I would, you know, social distance or whatever. And just that kind of, I guess, I'm not interested in making a website that a million people are going to look at, but I am interested in making a website where 10,000 people can go, Oh, I kind of get it. I am going to start choosing, you know, I'm going to start asking for diets where I'm eating cover crops, rather than I'm going to continue to ask for glycophate crops, right. And just kind of that, not all the information, and not even in a lot of detail, but you know, where are we going over the next five years if we want the planet to be a healthier place. We need to have influences, you know, we need to have like a couple of influences who in turn use their insights in the community. If we only knew any influencers. One person who's trying to do this and I don't know what his website looks like, but I'll go look now assault Griffith, who cares a lot who did his personal energy audits and considerable detail, who's mantra right now I think is electrify everything. And he's like hey one of the big solutions here is to just electrify everything and Doug, I'd be really interested in your take on him because you're really concerned about the replacement of appliances for example if we replace fossil fuel burning appliances that's a huge cost etc etc. I think he's gone way deep into that and also like Brad Templeton has a logical answer to just about everything I do believe he's like the reincarnation of Spock in several different ways but I'm also noticing that we're at the end of our call time. This has not been a normal check in but it's been a delightful conversation. I think today was like salon bill of thorny world problems. I think that it's possible to get thorny world problem exhaustion. This for me was an uplifting conversation. I hope it was for you. I think there's a lot of feedback on process and all that. On the, on the matter most chat for these calls for the OGM calls that would be that would be great. Anyone with a final closing word for this call. Well just the problem of electrifying everything, you have to produce the electricity that goes to the electrical appliances, and we don't know how to do that without cold gas at the moment. Which I think Saul addresses a lot so I think pulling those things apart would be interesting and also photovoltaic cells may well give us energy to cheap to meter with with like location independence because you just dropped PV cell someplace into the battery. Lauren did you want to say something also. I thought I saw you hold up your hand. It's my auctioneers instinct. Okay. I'll just hold up mine for a second to say that yet the enter the PV energy to cheap cheap to meter is the assumption behind Saul story about electrify everything. Yes, we do know how to do this we haven't done it yet. But there's another constraint that comes there which is the rare earth metals minerals that are required to do that. I think it's going to come next big environmental issue but there are folks looking at ocean harvest of lithium that may circumvent that but it's a question of how fast things to move if you're going planetary scale. Yep, and there's also tremendous amounts of research on batteries always has been but they're starting to try to find, how do we make efficient batteries that don't use rare earth metals that don't use all on basically, or all the things that are that are harmful that way. With that, I thank everybody for for being on this call. Thank you very much. See you on the inner tubes and next week. Same bad channel same bad time. Thanks all. Good to see you Lauren.