 So welcome, yes, welcome everyone to our, the second event at the Center for African Studies. My name is Mika, Dr. Mika Wuzdu. I'm a postdoctoral research fellow at SOAS and I will be one of your co-hosts this evening. So welcome. Today we're looking forward to a really rich conversation into a topic that relates to the diaspora in a way that it hasn't been spoken about in this way, or at least it's not part of mainstream kind of conversation around this. So without further ado, I think I will tell you a little bit more about the Center for African Studies and then I will pass the mic or the floor to my colleague, Christine. So as I said, I'm one of the postdoctoral research fellow at SOAS and the Center for African Studies. The Center for African Studies is a platform for promoting interdisciplinary research, policy dialogue and public engagement on issues related to the African continent and its diaspora. It is based at the Department of Politics and International Studies and it facilitates the development of new and ongoing joint research projects, publications, seminars, and collaboration with scholars, civil society actors, and institution in Africa, the UK and beyond. So the Center for African Studies is hosted and supported by the Pan-African Sanctis project, which is a multi-sided collaborative project, research project funded by the UKRI and it brings together contemporary policy discourse around Pan-Africanism with a broad analysis of it as an ideology with a long-standing and multifaceted tradition and history. So before I pass the floor to my colleague, Dr. Kiste Guenteng from Shabaka, just a few housekeeping points. So the webinar will be recorded, but don't worry, we'll only record as panelists. So just keep that in mind in relation to your messages in the chat. Please use the Q&A box to ask your questions. So towards the end, we'll leave some time for Q&A. And so you should find at the bottom of your Zoom page, you'll find the Q&A and the new type of your question. And as you've already been doing, you can also write on the chat. There will be my colleagues Paul from Shabaka and Aurora who will keep an eye on the chat. So if there's any issues, you can direct a message to them. So thank you and welcome and pass on to Kiste. Hello, everyone. Thank you all for joining us. My name is Dr. Kiste Guenteng and I am the research manager at Shabaka. And Shabaka is a research and consultancy organization that focuses on migration, diaspora, and humanitarianism. Thank you all so much for joining us this evening. I'm really looking forward to the conversation that we'll be having today. In the discussion today, we'll explore the role of 1.5 and second generation African diaspora in humanitarian action. And we felt that this was a very important topic to discuss because 1.5 and second generation African diasporans serve as essential links, often connecting their countries of settlement or residence to various African countries and identities. They also contribute to the cultural, economic and political enrichment of communities across borders. And there are also local advocates for local justice and humanitarian values. However, the role of 1.5 and second generation African diasporans, especially in humanitarian response is often overlooked in academic discussions, the humanitarian and development sectors and in media coverage. So in the conversation that we will be having today, we aim on shedding more light and increasing understanding of the critical role played by 1.5 and second generation African diasporas in humanitarian action. So after this, I will introduce our panelists and have them just share some information about themselves and their backgrounds. We'll have about 30 minutes for the panel discussion and then we'll have around 15 minutes for Q&A. So today we will be joined by our two panelists, Dr. Bashair Ahmed, who is the CEO of Shabaka and Sarah Ahmed Koshin, who is the director of the Somali Gender Hub and a PhD candidate at the University of Copenhagen and University of Nairobi. We were also due to have Sarah Marwan join us as well. Unfortunately, she has sent her apologies. She is not feeling very well so she won't be able to join us and we wish her a very speedy recovery. I believe Bashair is also on her way coming as well. So we will begin with Sarah. So Sarah, thank you so much for joining us this evening. If you could please introduce yourself, your background, share some of the work that you've done with the Somali Gender Hub as well as some information on your PhD work. Thank you very much, Christy. I hope you can hear me. Oh, great. A very good afternoon or good evening rather to you all. I would like to start off by thanking Shabaka and the Center for Pan-African Studies, in particular, Miquel, for inviting me to this webinar on participation in humanitarian action among generation 1.5 and the second generation African diaspora. I'm very, very happy to be here and to participate in this webinar and to share with you some of the findings of my own research project on Somali diaspora humanitarianism. So my name is, as Christy already said, I'm actually right now in Nairobi. I am fourth year, a final year PhD student attached to the Danida funded project called Somali diaspora humanitarianism in complex crisis. The Danida is the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Denmark and so the project that I'm a part of is a project that is looking at the important role that Somali diaspora play during disasters in Somalia. You know, how they mobilize themselves, how they mobilize for resources, how they channel that resources, and eventually how they disseminate that in various parts in Somali regions. We're about 10 researchers. We're looking at different, you know, sub focus areas. Myself, I'm looking at the role of women. And Christy, as you already mentioned, gender and generation are, you know, topics that are often overlooked in research and academia. And so my research is looking at the role that Somali diaspora business women play, and also female refugees who are based in Lusaka, Zambia, and how they take part in humanitarianism during disasters. And as a case study, I am looking at a particular flash floods disaster that occurred in in Puniland state of Somalia. I don't know how many of you are actually informed or knowledgeable about the various states in Somalia. But Puniland is a state, one of the five states in Somalia. And there was a flash flood that occurred in Kardo in the year 2020. It was a very disastrous, very destructive flash floods. And the Somali diaspora as well as the Somalis who are living in Somalia took a very important role in mobilizing for support for resources, both financial and non-financial. These women in Somalia, in Zambia, who are, you know, small and medium business holders, they played a very significant role in that particular disaster. And so I have been researching the past four, five years. I have been researching almost five years now in the role that they played, you know, how they organize themselves. And of course, the second generation and generation 1.5 are also some of the people, you know, the responders that I interviewed for my research. The Somali agenda hub is a research and training center based in Puniland, and they among other things are also exploring, you know, how the dynamics of an African diaspora youth who are on the African continent because I believe that, you know, in my interaction with the existing literature on diaspora humanitarianism, oftentimes the African diaspora who are based on the African continent are overlooked. So there's very little known about intra-Africa humanitarianism and how, you know, support is coming from young people who are already living and working or studying or doing business within the African continent. And I am looking at particularly at the Somali diaspora. I don't know how many of you actually are knowledgeable about the Somali diaspora and the businesses they are having in Africa, but there's a very strong community in Zambia as well as in Cape Town and in Nairobi. And I look forward to sharing with you some of, you know, some of my work later on and of course to answering some of your questions. I look very much forward to that. I'm very sorry that Sarah Marwan is not able to join us tonight. We wish her a quick recovery. Thank you so much for now. Thank you, Sarah. I remember attending one of your presentation at ICAS and, you know, not only are you a great speaker but also as you said this looking at diaspora engagement through the lens of inter-Africa or even just kind of global south to global south is something that is completely under research. And so thank you for joining us today and bring your research and your expertise into the conversation. So it seems like Bashar is still running late so maybe we can start the conversation with you, Sarah. And I can ask you the first question and then whenever Bashar is able to join us then we'll circle back. So one of, you know, we, one of the first questions that we had was around diaspora, like the broader diaspora engagement, right. So today we are focusing on the 1.5 and second generation, but we want to get a better understanding also of the wider context of diaspora engagement and humanitarian responses. So what does that look like across generation and it seems like this is part of your research, right. You're not focusing on your one generation, you're speaking to different generation and seeing in what ways they engage. So what's your kind of take of the broader issues around diaspora engagement and humanitarian response? Thank you, Michael. Well, generally speaking, I think African diaspora communities, whether they are on the African continent or elsewhere, have always played a very important role in humanitarian action and development work in their home countries. We know from the past existing, for example, research studies and assessment reports by different humanitarian organizations, as well as from our own research that African diaspora have for example been sending remittances to their families and communities for a very long time and these remittances are very life-saving initiatives for education, for healthcare, they send financial contributions during disasters as well. And some of the characteristics of the African diaspora in relation to humanitarianism that I have read about and that I have discovered as well in my own observations in my study is that oftentimes the African diaspora they act faster. So when calamity occurs, the African diaspora because of their own existing social ties and networks, they can act faster than NGOs and they sometimes also are able to access communities and places that organizations that have been working in the area for over 20 or 30 years cannot access. They contribute also by, you know, through their existing organizations, for example, they, I know from, from their engagement with different diaspora networks that they are existing civil society organizations in various communities, both in the African continent and outside, that are already having some kind of a structure that makes it easier for them to mobilize resources to respond to disasters. And what we also have read is that, you know, the African diaspora actually utilize less resources in doing all of this important work in comparison to organizations such as the international NGOs who often rely on security mechanisms to be able to deliver or even need translation, for example, because they lack, you know, the cultural and religious and, you know, access to the communities. So the African diaspora play very important roles and in the country that I am from myself in Somalia during the war from in the 1990s. You know, it was the diaspora that was actually providing important life saving support to communities and they are still doing so. And this phenomena is a phenomenon that, you know, scholars have tried to understand as to what connects Somalis who have lived elsewhere, sometimes even born outside of the country and they are still so much, you know, involved so much, connected so much giving and the concept of giving is very, very important to understand why Somalis and the rest of the African diaspora give to people they don't even know sometimes. You know, sometimes people they don't even have have not met simply because this that you know patriotic or solidarity feeling with the communities that they are from, they are transnational networks, you know, that they are part of. So this is something that we are as a project we have been trying to look at from various angles, some of us are looking at it from a technology perspective, you know what role does the technology play in facilitating all of this. What role do the young people play indeed, and what will do women play in my case. We are also looking at things like, you know, the role of the religious leaders and traditional elders, or rather the politicization of aid. And so the African diaspora I think Mikael, they play important roles the only thing that I have that I think is a weak point is that the African diaspora play, they are delivering all of this important and very good work, you know, in parallel to existing organizations that oftentimes don't tap into the, the African diaspora already existing networks and social ties and connections and, you know, the, what we have also seen is that the African diaspora once they are on board. They, they, they are able to stay even longer even after the disaster has happened, you know, they will stay on being connected to the people because it's not something that is time bound. The concept of giving, you know, the reciprocity, you are giving but you're also getting and if you look at the motivations I think this is a topic that we will discuss later on as to why, you know, African diaspora communities who are outside of the African continent and outside of their nation states are so involved and interacting with the, with the communities, you know, motivation plays an important role as to why, you know, African diaspora are so connected, what is the, what is the motivation, and this is something that I think all my co-panelists will also discuss later on and I look forward to contributing to that specific component of motivation as well later on. Thank you. This is like the perfect timing. Let's welcome Bashar Ahmed. Welcome. Welcome. Glad you can make it. Thank you. I, sincerest apologies. I think I can have another day about talking about roads and transports and all of this. It's like different countries. Everyone has something called traffic. That's absolutely fine. We are happy that you could make it. And I guess we will just ask you to share a few lines and interviews yourself. Yes, and then we'll follow up with some other questions. Thank you. No, thank you. And thank you all for being here. And thank you, Mikal and Kersti and other colleagues and for organizing this event. I think we don't talk enough about that generational engagement on diaspora. So my name is Bashar Ahmed. I work at Shebekah, a diaspora organization focused on diaspora migration and humanitarianism. So we do mainly research and we work across different countries and regions. Most recently we've been doing a lot of work on Sudan and such. The other hat, which is a topic close to my heart as well is this is also an academic topic of interest is 1.5 second generation diaspora. So that comes from my academic background where I've done research on engagement of that particular group from the Horn of Africa in the countries of all regions of origins. So I looked at diaspora from some 1.5 second generation diaspora from Somalia, Ethiopia, Retreya, Sudan, South Sudan. Djibouti was a bit harder too. You kind of find individuals with French and all of this. And it was quite for me fascinating. So I looked at those in London and Washington DC. And I really think we're missing something because when we talk about diaspora, most people just think 1st generation, but we don't think about what happens to that mixture of different identities, what happens to those individuals. So we can sometimes we kind of clump, you know, youth. I'm not youth. For example, I'm like part of second generation. So I think some we should kind of also be conscious that youth or young people is almost a different category and different needs. Whilst when you're talking about 1.5 and second gen, these are different things. But I hope that kind of answers, but please, task away. Thank you. Thank you. And actually, I was thinking, maybe it'll be good to also define what we mean by 1.5 and second generation because I feel like sometimes because obviously you're speaking about, you know, how often people when they say talk about 1.5 or second generation, they think about youth. But no, with a different cohorts across different generations. So what do we mean when we say 1.5 and what do we mean when we say second generation? Oh, I had so many who's like, why do you have the numbers? What's with the digits and different people have different understanding of it. So, so 1.5 was just to kind of say you're not quite first generation or second generation is for those who might have born in a particular kind of you know, parents or one of their parents heritage countries. For example, somebody who was born maybe in Nigeria and came as a child as a three year old or even as an eight year old or something like that. So most of the experience is probably belonging that but based on census data, your first generation. So you really don't fit either boxes. So that's the whole idea. While second generation is more kind of straightforward, you were born outside and, you know, grew up outside. You do have facets of this because you have people who don't fit neatly into this and we have to recognize these nuances. These are just, again, generic categories because the experiences of migration of movement is so diverse. Yes, absolutely. And I mean, and then there are, you know, the academic definitions and then what they're, you know, how people identify and, you know, what are the shaping experiences in the way they construct this sense of identity and belonging. And as you said, that can, I mean, it's on the continue. Exactly. And, and I think one thing is, should be self identifying. You should not be saying someone you are definitely 1.5 or so you can just kind of put like the loose definitions, but it's for individuals to also recognize whether this is something they that they feel reflects experiences. I don't think you can, you could ever, ever have someone neatly in one box. However, it's just to kind of be able to start articulating your particular experiences, your feelings. Maybe I'll, you know, my own experience. I was born in Qatar, went a bit, you know, studied only bit in a primary school in Sudan, but otherwise have been in the UK. So I have this kind of weird linkages with different parts of the world. So it's Yeah, so I don't think I fit into the one, you know, the first generation or second generation or the 1.5 or just because of this transnational identities that comes into play. So, and I think this is where we need to keep researching because also to acknowledge a globalization and all of these factors are adjusting our identities. The misery that is in use nowadays, it really kind of put perspective. Like, how do I feel about this? So where do I stand? It really is kind of setting a tone and it just kind of shows identities are fluid are not set on staying. Absolutely. Thank you. So we had a chance to already ask Sarah a little bit from her research and the personal experience. And I think something that also we, it's important to acknowledge and it's quite unique about this panel, but also as a host. We all are not only, you know, here in our capacity of research, but also have a personal experience, right? As a second generation for 1.5. Well, however, we want to, you know, identify ourselves. So it's almost as the, like, we are inside the outsider into the research and the work that we do. And I feel like this is something that needs to be celebrated as we know academia doesn't really reflect, you know, the diversity of this panel. But going back to our theme today, so Sarah, we spoke a little bit about the role of diaspora, you know, what kind of her experience in terms of humanitarian responses and the engagement that there is. And maybe we do want to go to not to the second question around what kind of the misconceptions that normally academically we have both sort of, you know, anecdotally, or on the engagement of second generation specifically in the humanitarian response. Because we also often sometimes actually to hear about, you know, migrant communities supporting through remittances and, you know, in many ways. But what are the roles of the second generation in the response, based on your research. Who's this question for? You muted Mika. Yes. Don't worry. And anecdotally, it's, it's one of those things which is, and this is when you can tell my age is, I think I wrote a paper back in 2005 about second generation diaspora and I was up with Amnesty International at the time. And I think I was just really frustrated. Every room I kind of went to is kind of people's like, you know, you know, nothing about Sudan, or even though I was working professionally on Sudan at the time. The second point was people would be laughing at my accents or something like that. So kind of dismissed or if I went to certain events, it was, it was a clique of like people who knew each other. So you are always, I'm like, I'm an outsider in this country. I'm an outsider here as well. And they're quite dismissive. Are you lazy? You don't appreciate what we've gone through and all of it. So there is a cultural and not generation, but also cultural disconnect. And a lot of people are doing that. So, and when we talk about second generation diaspora engagement and humanitarian responses and all of that, there's several layers to it. There might not be, because they don't have the same networks as the first generation. The responses are not for specific communities of origin. Like they're not going to be going straight to the, you know, the village. They might be interested in if you are in, you know, Philippines, it might not be the specific locality that was affected by the crisis, but it might be just generally for kind of other areas. So that kind of focus doesn't happen. The second layer to it is identities are much more broader. And what we've seen actually in terms of our research and all of this is what we've seen kind of generation is people who are not responding to origin countries or even regions of origin, but something broad identities like Islamic identity. I still remember during, it was actually more the European migration crisis, so rather than anyone else's. So, what you had, sorry, let me just sign this. What you had was people kind of responding, you know, from Pakistan from, you know, the heritage is from Pakistan generation from Pakistan or from other countries who responding to supporting those who are in Calais or other places. This is when you realize actually there's a driver so the motivation might have been specifically countries of origin, but where it's applied is not necessarily countries of origin or even regions of origin is much more broader. It's just evokes that empathy. But I can bring in a lot more examples but I don't want to hog the floor as well would love to hear from everyone else on that. Hi, Sarah, who are your thoughts on misconception of second generation. Thank you, Mikhail. Thank you also to Bashar. I would like to actually start off by sort of briefly commenting on what you both of you have just said, you know, in relation to being the insider but also at the same time the outsider, and you're participating but sometimes you're also observing and how you're impacted as a researcher in a research topic that very much concerns you that you can identify with that you're related in so many different ways to whether through your identities or through your own experiences or connections. Hi, myself. I was born in Somalia. I like mentioning examples and case studies to highlight a point so let me just briefly mention a little bit about my background and how that has benefited me in understanding this this topic of, you know, African diaspora and humanitarianism. So I was born in Somalia but I grew up in Zambia. Like many Somalis, you know, they, I didn't grow up in Somalia I grew up in Zambia and later on I went to the Netherlands, where I did my education, I managed to, you know, get a master's degree in anthropology. And then in 2008 I was one of the very first Somalis who within the framework of EU funded project called diaspora partnership program, whereby the EU partnered with care Somalia and an existing Somali NGO, where they were looking for, you know, Somalis who were highly educated in, on the outside of the country to go back and contribute to the development and peace building efforts in the country and so I was one of a large team, and I was the only young person in way back in 2008, and I was the only female as well. And so I was, of course, much younger and I wasn't, you know, I married now I'm a mother I wasn't then and I came with a big bag of dreams, you know, I came with a very high expectation, you know, I was so motivated to go back to my after having lived in Zambia and Holland for so long I really looked forward to contributing to understanding. And, and I have been there ever since I'm actually based in Garoepuntland even though right now I mean Nairobi for for my education, and, you know, from a PhD, but it's very important to mention all of this in relation to the topic we're discussing today because we are researchers, we're talking about, you know, a topic that I'm very much a part and parcel of and, and I think it brings so much, you know, benefits that someone else would otherwise not have. And that's why it's very important to sit down and understand the context and live the realities of young people in order to understand how their humanitarianism differs from the old generations. And, like I said, I am very fond of examples and case studies and so my own research project, you know, I, I tried very much to, for example, one of the tools that I use to collect data was focus group discussions. And so when we had one of these, you know, focus group discussions with Somali women I noticed that the Somali young people who were born in Zambia or grew up in Zambia the so called 1.5 generation didn't really say a whole lot in these groups. You know, they listened. They had a pen and paper they were very fond of taking notes, but they didn't really contribute, you know, verbally, and I sat down with them and I tried to understand why this was so outside of the group discussion. And I discovered that, you know, they have a whole lot to say, and sometimes their language barriers that they that sort of excludes them from this, you know, public discussions and so that's a very important point to understand before I mentioned. Before I respond to your question Mikhail on the misconceptions. Just let me briefly say some of the trends that I have seen with young people, you know, your second generation or 1.5 generation who grew up in my, in my case study for example in Zambia. So why is it important to examine these experiences because by doing so we gain, you know, insight into the complexities that these young people are living in and I think Bashair very vividly highlighted, you know, the fact that, you know, you're dealing with, you know, sometimes dual or triple or multiple identities, whether religious, whether cultural, and so on and so it's very, very, you know, problematic or rather, it's not easy to manage these identities, because on the one hand, you are a Somali, you are living with the Somali, you know, you're living in a Somali household, you're expected to speak the language and adhere to Somali, you know, culture norms and play your social role but on the other hand you are also having this, you know, roots or rather these connections to the country and the culture of, you know, in Zambia in my case, in my case, but also I have seen with many young people, for example in the UK, or in Canada for example, where, you know, I was part of a project that explored their lived realities and experiences. And so this delicate balance actually shapes their experiences and influences, their contributions, you know, into the social fabric of humanitarianism, you know, how do you take part, when do you take part, you know, and the role of the family and so what I have observed in the 14 years that I have lived and worked in Somalia, as well as in East Africa is that these young people often have great ideas, they are technologically, you know, very much involved in humanitarianism, and that's how they differ from the old generation, you know, they're very tech savvy, their technological contributions and inventions can actually be made available to enhance and facilitate, you know, humanitarianism, whereas on the one hand you have the older generation that are very much, you know, tied to the country who migrated to foreign countries a few decades ago, they have a deeper understanding of the cultural social and political dynamics in my case Somalia, and whereas these young people may not necessarily have that, you know, that frame of reference. And so second generation young people, what I have observed is that they use the language for example they speak multiple languages and sometimes this can be to the benefit of, you know, whether it is community development, whether it is humanitarian engagement, but what are some of the ways that are unique mechanisms that these young people are engaged in humanitarianism, and I have noted the following. For example, first of all, the ways that young people are informed about whatever is happening in their home countries, in the countries that their parents are from, they are informed in different ways, one of the important ways is through social media, for example. I have interviewed a group of elderly men and women in Zambia who were still listening to the radio, BBC London, BBC Somalia London, and at five o'clock every day the Somalis would get a radio and listen to it and that's how they're connected to what's happening in Somalia because it's been said in Somali language, even though now it's available on social media and it's live streamed through, for example, YouTube, they're still using the radio and young people are not. The other ways that young people are involved is, for example, in the flashcards that I am documenting, they were able to create GoFundMe's. These are ways of humanitarian engagement that we have not seen previously in flashcards, so they were able to speedily create websites, GoFundMe's, and fundraise from a distance, so these are some of the ways that they differ. But I think at the heart of the matter is, are young people as equally connected to their home countries as their parents, they're not equally connected, they are connected in different ways. And I think if you look at the Somali and Mogadishu example, for example, in 2017 we had a crisis, a drought in Somalia and these young people, a group of young people from Sweden and elsewhere in the West, you know, they came together online and they were able to create the first ever crisis mapping initiative whereby they were able to take the country of Somalia geographically and locate where each partner was delivering what resource. And this made it easy, also not only for the diaspora, but also for the government of Somalia as well as for international NGOs to use this application that young people developed to understand the ongoing drought of 2017 and how organizations could deliver life-saving medicine or water or food. And I think these are some of the ways that young people are taking part in humanitarianism that's often not documented. Where do they discuss these things? I have seen lately that they are on Twitter spaces, or rather ex, it's called nowadays. And they are very critical, they are very critical, they are talking about anti-tribalism movements, they are against tribalism, they are against corruption. Look at Somali sideways, for example, one of the initiatives that these young people have come up with in Mogadishu, if you go to Mogadishu or Gaddawe or some of the major cities in Somalia, you will come across hubs, technological hubs, innovation hubs that have been invented by young Somali diaspora, who from a distance came up with the idea, looks for funding sometimes, they even funded it themselves initially and later on were able to access funding. And finally, the Somali second generation and 1.5th generation are also taking part or leading the colonization agenda in Somalia and the localization of aid in Somalia. And as you know, a few years ago, the federal government of Somalia came up with the localization agenda whereby organizations that initially were established in Nairobi, and were running the development and humanitarian aid from Nairobi but being implemented in Somalia now, that's not the case anymore. Organizations have, they now have a presence in Somalia and young people were in the forefront of all of this. And they are in front of using hashtags, these are things that the old generation are not necessarily involved in. And so it really requires time and patience to sit down with how young people are taking part in being connected to the motherland, playing a big role, but also importantly as we're discussing today, humanitarianism. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you so much for that very. I think even saying comprehensive might be understood might be understood but thank you so much for that very comprehensive overview of the motivations and misconceptions of around the young 1.5 second generation Somali their engagement and humanitarian action. I was very interested and kind of surprised at the right word but it's very interested to see that there are some similarities between what you found with 1.5 and second generation diasporans on the continent and what I found in my own research with the second generation Ghanians, mainly in outside of the continent mainly in London and New York City so I think generally there, there isn't still isn't enough information on the experiences of 1.5 and second generation individuals so these conversations that we can share with researchers as people with lived experience I think brings out the similarities and differences that exist in our experiences so thank you so much for that wonderful information. Beshear I have a question for you, being that you have a lot of I believe the 20 years of professional experience in this space as well as you know PhD academic experience in this space so based on your expertise in both the academic and professional space in humanitarianism, what would you say the gaps are in our understanding of the contributions of 1.5 a second generation Africans in humanitarian action. Thank you so much for that discuss and Sahra you know you've raised Sahra is it Sahra so Sahra. Yeah, I think you've raised you know quite a lot of important and pertinent points. And I think what's important to kind of realize there's different facets to this migration will continue, you'll have continued to have different generations. So, the second point is humanitarian crises that last weeks or months, the last years, decades, generationally. So if you want to engage the aspirin, you have to realize this needs building relationships and doing that. And what's happening is, and research cannot be static and I think all of us know this in the, you know, in this space. It needs to be a continual process of learning and understanding context evolution of it how things change, how it evolves. So policy responses are based on these evidence and at the moment how can policy makers, whether in origin countries be able to respond to that is tricky to deal with kind of generational diaspora engagement because there's no sources of information because they're not captured in any census data. They are because census data is based on where you're born, or, you know, ethnicity but that you know you don't have a tick box necessary for everyone available. So different access to sources of information. So, and I think a lot of a lot of the focus has been on policies to engage diaspora in development in origin countries, but we have not looked at policy engagement at, you know, humanitarian diaspora engagement. Because at the moment, like, if you look at any of the crises globally, Ukraine and all of this, and, you know, we've been documenting this, you know, the diaspora have been at the forefront of providing that support. They are the lifeline. They are the supporters of those frontline responders. They are at key capitals. If you're based in the global north or and such, so they have a potential of, you know, a lot more influence. And, and I think there has to be a bit of more concerted effort at settlement countries. How do you engage with that? Because at the moment there's not enough data. There's not enough research in that particular area. And I think, I think you've raised a lot of things. What we also need when we talk about research is let's not do, I think the cleanality is such an important element of it. Do not research 1.5 second generation diaspora. There should be a part and parcel of this, you know, be inside a researcher. There's a lot more added value because it's about building trust relationships and all of this. So, even if you want to research about a particular community, that is not yours, which is fine, but do it collaboratively, you know, co-production, all of these kind of emphasis and not as a subject. I think this is one of the risks a lot of people tend to fall into. And finally, the last point is what I kind of seen is increasingly people's like in the humanitarian sector, there's a lot of funding cuts. There's more crises and a lot of funding costs. So everyone is looking at where funding pots are. And I'm fortunate for some, they see diaspora as the potential cash machine or ATM to fund their initiatives. So I cannot even recall how many times I've had calls where people kind of are precious. We want to fundraise for the diaspora, you know, exit, you know, the specific diaspora for these projects, fabulous project for having country X, and it's like, it doesn't work that way. You have to build relationships. You have to build trust. It has to be in partnerships. So I think one of the things that's missing in the conversation is how some kind of, you know, the humanitarian system sees diaspora. So some of them see diaspora as a risk. And yes, not all diaspora is it's not always conducive relationships. The second point is not all diaspora have conducive relationship with the origin countries. This is something to also realize. And thirdly, it's increasing. We're seeing diaspora treated as either beneficial, you know, targets for fundraising or as beneficiaries. So not as equal partners. So this is at the organizational levels. And what you have is a more professional or kind of more organized 1.12 second generation. So first generation might have been a more community. But I think the pattern that's kind of starting to emerge is you have more structures, more groups from professional groups. Kind of forming. So that needs to be recognized. So don't take the space of the diaspora, work with them, collaborate with them, but increasingly what we're seeing is not necessarily going in a positive direction. I think what you touched on essentially about creating space for the diaspora, that's something that quite hasn't, it hasn't quite been done in the humanitarian sector. And I think in relation to that, I think it'd be great if you could kind of share with the attendees why you started Shabaka. You explained, you know, when you came know what Shabaka does as a research organization diaspora led, which is very important. But I think if you could just share a bit more explicitly, like kind of the rationale behind starting Shabaka. Yes. So I can my background, I kind of worked in the international humanitarian system so I've worked with the UN with the international organizations worked in different contexts in different countries. What I was increasingly seeing is this dichotomy of, you know, local international stuff. So this unequal power dynamics in a lot of international organizations who work in the global majority countries. What you see is you could be sitting at the same room as someone, your colleague doing the same job, but because you're local, you get probably a tenth of the salary of the international. And that inequality was so pervasive. The second part was the humanitarian system was, you know, taking all the accolades like we've done this and that, but diaspora doing so much with local groups and organizations. So the concept of mutual aid, we're seeing it in Sudan, we're seeing it in other places. They're the ones who kind of stepping up. They're the ones sustaining communities. They are the social protection mechanisms in a lot of these contexts. And that was not recognized in terms of the institutional humanitarian structure. So we need to start talking about ecosystem, because you have so many other players who are stepping up. You could have seen, just an example, not even talking about, you know, the sort of African context, just look at the context, even in the UK during COVID. Look at the concept of mutual aid, like when people couldn't leave their hands or ill, they needed someone to help them to get food shopping. You know, your neighbors came in and all of it. So this kind of sense of community, mutual trust and all of this, yes, it might take place online or in other ways. So I think seeing all these gaps, I think it was kind of necessary to kind of look into this. What's happening with diaspora, but also humanitarian context, because everyone was talking about remittances. I love the figures about, it's about $800 billion a year that diaspora through official channels are sending to origin countries. So that's I think what engaged a lot of people and gained a lot of interest. However, it's the advocacy, you know, the second shift work that's being done that is not recognized. You know, the advocacy, the support, it comes in so many different forms. And I think we need to stop talking about money. Talk about what does humanitarian engagement is, because people assume it's about sending money or clothes or something like that. No, it's much more than that. And I think this is where we need to bring all these nuances and just articulate it a bit more clearly and all of this. Oh, yeah, another thing is diaspora don't recognize it doing humanitarian work. The number of times we're doing research stuff, we don't do humanitarian. They think you have to have something like the International Federation for the Red Cross, you know, the big signage with the cars. They're like, yeah, those floods we sent a couple of hundreds. Yeah, that's how humanitarian work is recognizing also it comes in so many different shapes and forms. And I'm happy to kind of discuss further, but let me hear it here. Thank you. Okay. Sarah, can you, what are your thoughts with them? You were touching on this in your introduction, right? The importance of networks, the importance of, you know, diaspora communities and how they often the first responses. So it's almost like you're, you have seen and experienced the same things whether we like from personal experience career academically so clearly there's something that is not being picked up, right? Yes, Mikael. I think, I think, you know, there is, you know, I agree with Bashar, we need to understand more how humanitarianism is being driven by the African diaspora. And indeed, the humanitarianism is not all about money. So we need to begin with more research on this. And, you know, projects like the one that I'm involved in is trying to understand this from different angles. And my own case study, looking at the role of women and young women in humanitarianism, you know, what I would say is that we need to acknowledge this group as important contributors to both humanitarianism. And sustainable development. From the very short time that I have engaged with the Somali women, you know, on the African continent, in particular in Zambia, but also here in Kenya, is that, you know, at the end of the day, even though these young people were born elsewhere, they very much identify with and are connected emotionally, they connected to the homeland, but there are some challenges that they are facing and some of them have to do with the, for example, the language barrier. And so I would highly recommend that there be, you know, for example, information sessions, you know, for young people to know more about, you know, at a very young age to know more about their country. And, you know, to participate in this information sessions, I think that if young people are exposed at a very young age to ways that they can engage with, you know, the dynamics of the context of their own home countries that there will be, it will be easier for them to engage with their own, you know, tap into these opportunities. The second thing I would like to say is that there are a number of programs currently that enable or make it possible for, you know, highly trained highly skilled African diaspora to go back home from the African continent. There are very few opportunities for African diaspora on the African continent. You know, my research is looking at intra Africa, humanitarianism, you know, and from, from what I have seen and my engagement with young people on the African continent in different countries, Somalia and Nansomali is that there is a desire to be involved, to go back, you know, albeit even, you know, just briefly to go back home and, and see, and there's fear among young people because sometimes, especially in post conflict or conflict countries, you know, there are some stereotypes that exist. And so young people really desire to go to go back home and have some kind of a support mechanism already that they can tap into or be a part of once, once, once there. And, and, you know, the African Union, for example, doesn't even, you know, their policy doesn't include the African diaspora in any of their programs. I think that is a pity. If you look at the literature on diaspora, the definition of diaspora, sometimes, you know, you ask yourselves, what do we know about African diaspora is, you know, why is there very little known about the African diaspora. And, you know, those studies that are already existing about the African diaspora on the African continent is that they, they are studied as refugees or asylum seekers, but not as the vibrant communities that they are. They are very strong business communities on the African continent. And if you compare that with, you know, Africans who went to the West to seek asylum, and have maybe social access to social welfare, you know, on the African continent, people are doing business, more into business, you know, and, and very much giving very much giving and we need to understand how that happens, how that takes shape and form. When it comes to young people, young women in particular. You know, the, the, the, for example, the, the really desire to go home and stay for a short time, but then they before they go home they want to be fully informed, and these information sessions do not exist. Additionally, because programs like the, the one by UN media and IOM that, that are always looking for highly skilled Somali diaspora, for example, from the West from Canada from Australia, to go back as doctors as teachers, as, as, as, you know, lawyers and program managers from different programs, programs, they don't really, you know, tap into this African diaspora who are educated and have, you know, degrees from the African African universities and I think this, you know, falls under the colonizing humanitarianism and the ways and approach to it. Really, really because these young people as my case study highlights, you know, play very important roles and these are some of the, you know, you know, specific details that I really want to highlight in my own project that even though I'm looking at business women, I'm also now very much interested in the 25th and second generation, young, you know, Somali women in Zambia, and what they can do from a distance and many, many other, by the way, not only in Zambia, but in on the African continent, and how that, you know, differs from the African diaspora in the West, and you know how there are similarities or differences and how they can be complementarity to fill in each other's gaps. Thank you so much, Sarah. And we, we have a number of questions coming through from our attendees. Yeah, I just wanted to kind of add one point and because I just kind of like triggered it because this concept of because diaspora only get if you're kind of one point you tend to when if you get the opportunity to go to origin country. Only within the context of family so you never get to discover the country beyond that. So it tends to really skew your knowledge so you really have to go outside from that. There's actually a really interesting initiative. I'm just going to put it in the chat for everyone, which is called birthright Africa, which is gets a program to get young people to go to Ghana. I think other countries, but just to kind of connect and to build these relationships. And this is an example of, you know, some countries where this has happened so young people get the opportunity to do that, because this is, because I understand this is going to be a future allies, your future advocates. And because we have just, you know, if your policy makes you really need to think in decades not in one or two years, just to get elected. But I'll just, yeah, look forward to the questions. The questions really speak to what both of you have really explained and highlighted in the very nuanced ways, right. So some of the issues around the colonizing how we understand the humanitarian action and responses understanding how diverse it can be, but also how to almost make it more available and accessible for, you know, potential allies both in the continent. So both in those in those countries and in the diaspora right so seeing this as a level equal level partnership and not something that's just interactive, whether it's the diaspora, there's just, you know, the ATM or the local actors who are just there to connect you to the, you know, to the right people to the right organization so finding a way to really engage in this work in a more ethical way, and actually the questions that are being raised speak to this tension, right, between how do we facilitate the engagement of the diaspora, whether the second generation 1.5, particularly when the accessible training or to information is not readily accessible. So both of you mentioned language as a barrier. For example, one of the questions that we had is also, you know, how can second generation diasporic individuals find opportunities to get involved in this space. As a student, I've learned a lot about the Western structure of power and how it's built to disadvantage Africa in particular, but it's hard to find humanitarian organizations who are willing to mentor, intern, employee, please send graduates. So if you have, do you have any practical advice on how, you know, one can enter into this space. That would be one question and maybe I'll ask another one so you can both think about it as well. And the other question was another question that came up was around actually diaspora groups and having a connection with donors. And I think Bashar, you mentioned this, you know, people trying to approach diasporic organization and say okay we want to raise funds, do you have the connection. So, how do we go about leveling that kind of power dynamic. And, you know, you mentioned creating an ecosystem and it feels like this is one of the Shabaka missions right to create an ecosystem. What else can we do. What is missing in the liver to that and see where we get, where we go with time. It's a lot of, it's a lot to kind of respond to, but there's no clear answer. And I think it's a work in progress in many ways. I think there are some tools that are available. So just in the first question about how to enter the sector is hard and it's getting harder. There's a lot of cuts is quite challenging. But there are smaller initiatives here and they're like, for example, with the, you know, the British Red Cross. We've been doing, they have a diaspora program where they've been looking at engaging with getting diaspora interns. Unfortunately, the opportunities are far in between. But I think, I think just you have to keep trying and just build your experience and also share your knowledge capture. I think one thing we don't do is we don't document enough about our knowledge and own it. Write blogs, post about it and on such and I think building that. That would would help quite a lot on that, but happy to, if you drop us an email to kind of like explore and send you kind of more details on that. In terms of what else is happening is the localization agenda. So localization is a reference to a commitment made back in 2016 at the World Humanitarian Summit that most of the humanitarian aid goes directly to local organization. That 25% of it, or the global aid goes there to international organization. At the time, it was only 2% going directly to local organizations. Since then is dropped to 1%. So it's quite shameful. And people need to be called out on it. So, and I think as. The thing is, a lot of diaspora organizations are, you know, focus is in a small organization, we might not have the, you know, the ability to kind of highlight some of these opportunities. So I think working coalition, I think something we tend to do is we go into our own countries of origin, but we don't work across. So you'll have the, you know, the Syrians might just work with Syrians and all of this, but we've had the experience where the cross learning. We had a project with us ID where we worked with Haitian, Syrian and Sudanese diaspora. And one, when you had the earthquake in Turkey and northern Syria. We had the Haitian because of their experience with the earthquake, they were able to kind of support, you know, share that knowledge with the Syrian groups. So that cross learning is so important on that. I think we should demand more, not from necessarily just from governments, but also regional bodies African Union have a diaspora. And so you actually have all of this work. So you have all of these policies and such is just about action in it. And just kind of be focused in terms of the messages you'll ask and and such. But so maybe we want to ask some questions and then I'll come jump in and try and also look through so remind me if I missed anything so apologies. I think, Mikael, you would like me to respond as well right. Um, first of all, I look forward to answering the questions. There are so many questions for you for me as well. So I look forward to engaging with the audience. Thank you for be patient audience. But just briefly, um, yeah, some of my thoughts and how to enhance that partnership with organizations, you know, I think first of all, what, you know, the international organizations and development organizations should do is to first of all, understand try to understand. So, you know, the African diaspora, you know, their differences, their dynamics, the context background connection to the countries that they represent you try to understand. And secondly, acknowledge their contributions. You know, African diaspora has been there long before. Sometimes even these organizations went to this specific, you know, locations. They've been contributing and they respond faster, they stay longer. They contribute significantly. And I like I said, I'm fond of, I'm fond of examples in 2017 in Somalia, the international community donated to the drought to 517 million US dollars whereas the Somalis diaspora and the Somalis at home by the way that's a very important to acknowledge as well in the contributed over 2.2, you know, a billion United States dollars. And so obviously they are doing much more contributing much more so it's very important to understand. But we can't generalize and say there is an African diaspora or Somali diaspora or Sudanese diaspora we need to understand the different actors within this, the group, you know, acknowledgement for young people, for example, young women, or women in general and the contributions they make. And I think development organizations should also see diaspora organizations, not as competitors, they're not competing, they are really there to compliment. And I hope that if you know, I just wish that organizations working in the humanitarian sector in Africa could just pay a bit more attention to all the great things that African diaspora can offer. And whether it is in the language that they speak the culture they understand they are already on the ground they are involved. And I think in terms of sustainable development, not only contribute during disasters but also look at the African diaspora with an eye for engaging them, not only in, you know, that disaster that happened, that flash flood, that drought, but also engaging them sustainably. And not only as individuals as they are, as organizations are currently fond of, you know, there are all kinds of programs out there that are looking for an African expatriate to come back and do this or that. But also look at the civil society, you know, the African civil society organizations that are have been existing for such a long time, are contributing meaningfully. Tap into that, tap into that. And finally, I think there's, there's a whole lot that, you know, we can learn from other countries who are more or less in a similar situation. You know, South-South collaboration, South-South Lincoln and learning, a knowledge exchange. And I think, finally, that, you know, the important role that women play in all of this. You know, from, for example, my, you know, project that the leadership, leadership roles that women play in humanitarianism actually, you know, leads to a change in gender norms and transformation in society because women who, you know, are on the African continent as business as business women are contributing significantly financially to disasters as my project shows, and thereby also enhancing their leadership roles and, and, you know, looking at how gender norms and social roles are being transformed in all of this, you know, the, the impact of migration for, for women and how women, you know, are challenging these patriarchal structures that already exist in, for example, in Somalia. That is very important for women's empowerment agenda and social inclusion, diversity. So speaking of sustainable development that African diaspora can contribute significantly, you know, and I think it takes an important decision making to sit down and acknowledge them. And I think the African Union can start, can start there, you know, by, you know, acknowledging African diaspora in their policy frameworks, which currently unfortunately is not the case. I have a whole lot more to say about what I think should be done. But I think it's important to also now listen to our audience and answer their questions. Thank you, Sarah. And thank you, Bashair, for your, for your insistence to those questions. We are actually drawing to the end of, to the end of our time. So I'll just ask one final question for the both of you. We have discussed a lot of within this wider topic of 1.5 second generation engagement in humanitarian action. There have been a lot of different sub themes identity, self identification, you know, the importance of more research the importance of more information coming from South South examples. So for the both of you, out of everything that we've discussed and maybe something that we haven't even had a chance to discuss. What would you like the audience to take away the one key takeaway that you think it is imperative that the people who have tuned in that are watching now are watching, you know, future and the future since this will be recorded. What is the one thing you want them to take away from this conversation, especially I would you like to start or Sarah. Okay. I just would like to say, you know that, you know, African young women play very important roles in humanitarianism. And we need to we need to acknowledge that and welcome that and look into how we can tap into that potential for for the development of, you know, our respective countries in Africa. I think I think that's my, that's my argument. And, you know, thank you so much. This is really insightful. I would love for us to have that longer time to discuss this. But I would actually add like three points. Intersectionality. So it's not just about gender. There's so many layers about age, migration history because I saw questions also about that. You could be first generation but might have been 20 years apart, but still first generation but experiences will be very different. When you talk about humanitarian crisis, all because of your reason was because of forced migration, intergenerational trauma and trauma does cascade into that and the evolution of diaspora. So we cannot just kind of say, Oh, then, you know, nice research on diaspora and do that. This needs to be a continual process and we know this, you know, in academia in practice and all of this. It needs to be evidence based. So if you want to have the right policies in place, you need to do the research and the legwork and invest in that. And that's not happening. So people are still just kind of basing it on first generation of particular migration histories, but not how things are evolving or involved or the changes and it affects countries of settlement and origin. It's not contained in one path and the transnational and I will leave it with that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time and for sharing your wealth of information with us. This is, even though I'm in I'm in this space I've learned quite a bit. And I'm really looking forward to seeing the work you know Sarah your work seeing the work that you publish from your dissertation and continuing the work that we're doing with Shabaka shedding more, more light more information on this very important topic. I want final final question. How can people Sarah Michelle, since you know we've run out of time and I know people. We weren't able to go through all the questions that we had and I'm sure people might be thinking of questions. No, in the days to come. How can people get in touch with you. Email socials. How can people want to reach out to you how can I get. I can put here our main email so they can contact us. Because it's not just myself because you have wonderful colleagues have been also answering I have Paul. Yeah, they've asked a very important question. This requires sit down. If no, not going, you know, going home is not an option. How would you do it. So yeah, please do that. Thank you. How can people get in touch with you as well. It's in the chat but I think it just sent to the panelists. I have just posted my link to my blog I have a blog where I block about my project and other things, gender issues in Somalia. Thank you so much. Yeah, so. There was a question for me. Can I answer that Mikael. Which one. There's a question in the question in the Q&A about my project. Yes, yes about your publisher is going to tell you yes. Yeah, exactly so I haven't yet published. I am, that's why I'm very very happy to be participating in this webinar to have this level of exposure to, you know, present my work and you know also answer questions, but there are some two articles that I will be publishing in a next year or next year as part of my, you know, PhD dissertation on women and second generation, but also leadership roles and important all that women play in diaspora humanitarianism during disasters in Somalia. And so, if you're interested, you know, follow me on my blog and I do blog about my work but I haven't published in terms of, you know, scientifically, scientifically and that will happen next year. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing the link to your blog. Basha, do you have something one more? One last thing was a question about, and this is actually the truth is like, I would say for first generation people assume you know everything about your culture and all of this because of your country of heritage that culture is not transferred through DNA. It's transferred by practices, so it's just because I've been at the other end of it, which is be because that's not what Sudanese do or this is not like I'm supposed to know, you know, on a lighter note so you have to put in the unfortunately the legwork. It's not the easiest and I really commit, you know, commend people who take the risk of migrating because leaving home often is not a choice. It's a necessity. And, and we just need to kind of recognize that and what does that mean that disconnect. So, and a lot of people that's why almost have homes become embassies in a lot of spaces so. Thank you. Thank you. So thank you everyone for joining us this evening. It's been a wonderful discussion I know we could probably go for like another two hours. We will have to leave it here for now so thank you to our panelists, Sarah and Bashar, thank you to our co co host the SOAS Center for Pan-African Studies and our colleagues from SOAS Center for Pan-African Studies at Shabaka who have been supporting us in the background and thank you all the attendees. Thank you for coming. Hope you learned a lot. We hope you've taken some information from this event that you can use in your own work or in your own lives as well because this is not solely academic or, you know, it's not solely academic, it's also our lived experience. So hopefully there's information that you can take as you go on in your work and in your life. Our VVs are our socials, and we've also posted them in the chat so please follow us on on x slash Twitter on Facebook on LinkedIn. Email us. We are really looking forward to hearing getting your feedback about this event or any questions that you want able to answer. And we are sharing we're always sharing the research that we're doing on our socials as well so we would really encourage you to follow both Shabaka as well as the SOAS Center for Pan-African Studies so you can stay abreast of the work that we have coming up and the work that we're doing. So thank you. Thank you everyone and have a good morning afternoon or evening depending on where you are. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much for organizing. It's been lovely. Thank you everyone. Thank you.