 So, welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. For many of us running a single mile sounds tough, I know it used to be for me. Never mind running an entire marathon. Well, my guest today has not only done that, but a whole lot more. In fact, he's run the equivalent of 172 marathons in a row. In just a minute, I'll be speaking with the ultramarathon runner, author and motivational speaker, Charlie Engel. Charlie has run 4,500 miles through the Sahara Desert and survived 16 months in federal prison. That's an interesting combination that we're going to get into, but it considers his more than two decades of sobriety as one of his biggest feats to date. Wow, what a history. This is going to be good, folks. He released his memoir, Running Man. Three years ago and has touched countless lives with his story of courage, perseverance, and redemption. Today we'll discuss his strategies and setbacks with addiction and incarceration and how running helped him overcome adversity and forge ahead. We'll also chat about his incredible record-breaking treks around the globe and how physical exercise can help you work through your own struggles. Charlie, thanks for joining me today. Truly my pleasure. That was the best intro I've ever had, I believe, so thank you for that. This is impressive, impressively crazy and motivational. You look like the picture of health, but you spent a decade of your life addicted to drugs and alcohol? Indeed. My 20s primarily were pretty much a disaster, but addiction doesn't look like what people assume it does always. I was this really bad alcoholic and cocaine addict, yet I was also the top salesman at my company. My idea was that if I balanced the really bad things I was doing with some amazing good things that it would all work out. I always thought that the boss wouldn't fire the top salesman and that absolutely turned out not to be true. Is that most addicts, and I care for a lot of addicts and former addicts, have to hit rock bottom? Is that what happened to you? It is. Actually, the birth of my first son was a real catalyst for me. I was 29. I'd tried everything to quit. I had been successful in short bursts, but never could maintain so many addicts. I was like, okay, my son is going to change all that just by his mere presence. Not surprisingly, what I found with this tiny beautiful baby boy was love and hope and strength that I'd really never had before. But two months after his birth, there I am again on another six day binge and the police are going through my car and there's bullet holes in the car that were put there by somebody who was trying to shoot me. Even after six days of no sleep and all the things I was doing, I had the clearest thought ever. That thought was simple, that nobody is coming to save me. My son can't save me and I had always looked for these external reasons to quit and it took in that moment the realization that I had to do this for myself and that there was no other way. I went to a 12-step meeting that night and I got up and put my running shoes on the next day and I ran and went to a meeting every day for the next three years without missing a single day and through that mechanism began to create a life for myself. So there's a lot of teaching that you will always be an addict but you have to be addicted to something. Indeed. Right? Indeed. So were you a runner before that or did you say, holy cow, I'm going to go? I was and I had a legacy of running. I had run in high school and even in my, like I was a binger, again with addicts, not everybody is like an every day all the time user. I would have a couple of terrible months and then I would get sick of it and I would clean up for a month or a couple months or whatever and running was always a mechanism for me to both get myself physically fit but I also recognized there's a combination of self-imposed suffering, almost penance, self-flagellation that actually goes along with that because of course as any self-respecting addict I felt badly about myself and I felt like I wasn't worthy of love or forgiveness or many of the things that I saw in other people and strangely running began as a way to sort of purge that what felt like craziness all the time and I had the side benefit of I just knew I felt great when I ran, although I will say people assume I love running and I do love to run but they make the mistake of understanding that for me running as a vehicle towards not only, you know, culture, cultural exploration but also it's the stopping that feels great. It's the endorphin release that comes at the end that actually feeds a lot of what I need and what I feel so the act of running, sure, I like it in a lot of ways but I like where it takes me more than that. You know there's a saying in running that the hardest step in running is the step out the door. Totally. Is that 100% not really for me because it's embedded but when I coach people I tell them all the time, you have to trust me like you haven't run since you were 12 years old and think of the joy that you had when you were young, we all did what was natural as a kid as a pre-adolescent, as an adolescent. You got home from school and the first thing you did was run out the door to your friend's house to play or whatever. We naturally ran everywhere we went because emotionally that's what we wanted to do and physically it was the fastest way to get there. When we get older of course we stop doing that because when you haven't run in 20 years it hurts, it feels lousy. People get motivated and they go train 7 days a week and it hurts them because they don't understand the way to slowly work themselves into it and find something that works for them as an individual. Yeah, when my wife finally convinced me to start running in my mid-40s I had such awful shin splints and I go, this is not fun, why would I do this? But then we got a dog, a very active dog and actually I learned to run from watching my dog. Thanks to the dog. Man, this is great. Let's do this. You stupid dog. It's interesting that even with someone like you with your vast knowledge of physiology shin splints are just a way of saying tendonitis, it's really all it is. It's an overuse injury which means that you've done too much too soon or maybe your shoes are off or whatever but it just takes time like anything else. So did bullet holes in your car help to hit rock bottom? Indeed. Yeah. Well, and it was the, I know you work with addicts, I mean addicts aren't, it's something we're not smart enough, you know, if- No, let's actually, let's dispel that myth right now. Addicts are some of actually the most intelligent, smartest people there are on this planet. They really are. We're great salesmen too. We can sell anybody anything like we're okay, right? That's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. But I mean you have to be actually highly intelligent to harm yourself as hard as- Voluntarily. Yeah, voluntarily. Yeah, yeah. Certainly it's a mix of, it's a mix of genetics, you know, I'm a fourth generation addict, you know, of some type and, you know, I have two kids. One of them has struggled, one hasn't. I mean it's such a clear, it's such a clear path. It is a proverbial loaded gun. If you have it in your genetics and you choose to pick it up, you got a pretty solid shot of suffering some bad consequences. Yeah, no, it's very true. Okay, so, all right, so you run long distances, but now you run really long distances. I mean 35, 50, hundreds of miles. How does that help you? Wait, is it supposed to? Yes. I hope it helps. No, it does. It does. It is a vehicle of self-exploration for me and I certainly got the question early on in those first three years, I actually ran, you know, I ran, when I ran every day, I actually ran 30 marathons in that period of time, like my first 30 and I absolutely was to a degree addicted to running and I had people ask. Not necessarily in a kind way, you know, haven't you just switched addictions and I understood their point, but the fact of the matter is, you know, addiction is about hiding, about being invisible, about not having any feelings. And if you do have one heaven forbid, you know, you tamp it down with some drugs or a drink and running is by its nature the exact opposite. It's like there is no hiding and running. It's you feel everything both physically and emotionally, or at least I do, when I'm doing this after I do it and for the first time in my life I was fully present, you know, not only during the run, but during other times. Like if I go have a run in the morning, which I do most mornings, like it does set the stage for me to be energetic and a happy mood, like that's done and I feel good the rest of the day. So again, people assume you run for fitness, meaning physical fitness and that is such a small component of the reason I run. Well, I'm glad you say that. I think that's a lot of people miss that point. Many addicts tell me that they use a drug or alcohol to quiet the noise in their brain. Do you just run in quiet to your brain? Yes, in a way. I will say that it maybe is like this. There's a roulette wheel normally has like one ball and a lot of slots. You know, I feel like sometimes I have like a ball for every slot and when you spin it, they're all bouncing around and if I go out for a run, like they do all sort of settle into their spot. They eventually roll around and find their spot and, you know, and things sort of click. I learned a long time ago I do take an audio recorder or these days my phone when I run because I do have good ideas or at least what I think are good ideas when I run. So there is clarity there, I think, that I find it harder to have sitting in an office or trying to sort things out on a computer where you've got emails and phone calls and texts coming in all the time and I can't keep one thought in my head for more than 30 seconds because there's 20 more that want to shove in. So running does help me solve that. And I want to say just one quick thing. Addiction is when I ran those first three years, I thought that what I needed to do was like take a scalpel and like eliminate the addict. Like if I could just cut that part of me out that, you know, then I'd be okay. And it took that time to figure out that my addictive nature and my addictive qualities were actually all the best parts of me as you sort of pointed out a moment. Without those, I probably would just be sitting on the sofa like playing video games or, you know, it makes me do things and it makes me pretty good at a few things. No, you're right. The ability to hone in and concentrate on something, I mean, you guys have rare gifts in that way as long as- Positive and negative. My wife says, you know, use your powers for good. So we've got an addiction crisis again in this country as if it ever went away. So how do you help somebody, you know, kick this problem? Any tricks? Man, that's a tough one. And I mean, it has changed. You actually just referenced, you know, in my day, I'm old enough that it felt like addiction was a long-term, you know, person might start drinking. They might start with smoking weed. They might start whatever. And it's this progression. What we're seeing with young people these days is they are zero to a hundred in a minute. Like they are going from never doing anything to doing heroin and fentanyl like tomorrow and it's killing them. And so two things that I would absolutely love to put out to your amazing audience is, you know, kind of the idea that we see at airports all the time. If you see something, say something, you know, very often it's self-apparent. Like we really do see these things. But dealing with that with anybody in our life is a pain, you know, it causes emotional pain and it's hassle that throws us out of our routine. Right. And it's hard to do. Yeah. And that person very often is likely to say, you know, screw you. I don't want to talk to you about this. You know, I don't have a problem, but you have to take a stand with people. And for the people who might be the addict out there that are watching, you have to finally ask for help. Everybody thinks they can do it alone. I assure you I'm confident in saying that I am one of the stronger mental people that you might ever meet as far as like just determination. I could not do it alone. I tried over and over and it wasn't until I looked for, you know, fellowship and support and had somebody to actually help me. You know, we spend 99% of our lives like preparing all of us for that 1% when everything goes wrong. And if you don't have a support network, whether it's addiction, disease, whatever it might be, you're in trouble. So find that support system. So, you know, you've had crazy, you know, crazy things. In 2007, Matt Damon produced, what, Running the Sahara documentary. Your team ran across the Sahara Desert. It seemed like a good idea to do that. Why did you want to do that? What inspired you? Come on. And I will, I freely admit after the fact that almost looks like I had a great plan and I had some big, I wanted to see if it was possible. I mean, they're firsts in the adventure world, firsts in almost any field are really hard to come by. And for me, having the opportunity to try something that had never been done before and see if it was possible was very alluring. And, you know, and it fulfilled that need for me, you know. And I, again, I freely admit that there is a part of me and maybe it's my addict, maybe, I don't know what, curiosity, that I try to approach every situation with, you know, a curious mind and an open heart and the acceptance of the fact that I'm going to get something out of it. May not be what I want or necessarily even need. But I try to look at the philosophy this way, too. Comfort is like ridiculously overrated. Like, I don't know. It was like somewhere in the 50s, we invented the, you know, electric can opener because we were just like all of a sudden too lazy to open our own cans anymore. And it's like all innovation has been towards like making life easier. Well, what have we ever gotten from that? Like, there's no lesson and easy. Well, so you explain this to me. You slapped on a pair of tennis shoes and stepped out on the Sahara Desert and said, let's go, gang. This sounds like an incredible organizational feat. Just describe some of that. I mean, how do you do this? Well, what's funny about that is you probably, if you predicted what happened in that first week, you probably could. It was a dive into the abyss where absolutely everything imaginable went wrong. Like the 50 things that we thought maybe could go wrong, you know, just weather and whatever else, you know, those things went wrong too. But like we ran out of food, we ran out of water, we got lost. I had two crew people quit. It was 140 degree ground temperatures. So like you can practice and train and prepare at home when it's 80 degrees and, you know, whatever, and you can go take a shower at the end of the day. But then when you get out there, it's a different world. This makes bad water look like a walk in the park. I did bad water a bunch of times. And in a way, bad water is a compressed suffering, as I like to say. Where you do know, at least with bad water, it's going to end. Like somehow, it's in a certain period of time, it's going to be over. And with, you know, with the Sarah Desert, it kind of just went on and on. But, you know, we fell apart, quite frankly. And back to the lessons of addiction, what I realized about a week into it was I was so intent on putting my feet in the Red Sea at the end of the expedition that I forgot that it really is like everything else, this one day at a time adventure. And so like on day eight, I focused on running a marathon in the morning and get to lunch. And then I'd run another marathon in the afternoon and that would be my whole soul focus and get to the end of the day and lay on my mat and look at a billion stars and like give, you know, give thanks for the fact that I was actually able to be out there suffering and experiencing sort of a, I guess, a very life-changing experience for me. And your shoes are melting? Yeah, shoot, well, bad water, that happens for sure. The Death Valley, we had some funny, everything wants to stick you and poke you in the desert because it's trying to protect itself. And so we had to put it this way, I had a unnamed in this moment shoe sponsor who had air pockets in their shoes. And those things, like I'd be running along and it'd be like, like that's higher. So it was a really amazing experience. And the Torrigs and the people of the desert were like so many impoverished places where they would offer you absolutely everything they had. And I'll tell you, anybody who's never, if you've driven into a village in an impoverished country, you're treated one way because you're driving in a car. They can't relate to that really, you're above them. You run into that same village and like, nobody wants anything from you. They run along with you and laugh and have a great time and wave at you as you pass through having no idea why you're there. And it's a let's go watch the idiot. Yeah, right, right. Hey, there's some guys coming through your village. But yes, no, it's and it's true. They just kids just run and have fun. And that's that's all that's what they know language barriers aside. It was nothing but just human interaction. And that is why I'm out there. You know, I don't I'm not certainly running across the desert to help myself physically. And I did I pounded myself physically. I mean, it was two marathons a day, basically for 111 consecutive days. So tell me, what kind of physical toll did that take on you? Yeah, I don't know. Stay tuned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was, let's see, I'm 56 now. So I was basically 46 at the time of the run. And I think the other thing that happens is that people assume like, if you saw me run, you would kind of go, huh, that's not particularly attractive. You know, I am a an incredibly efficient shuffler, you know, I mean, it's the other misconception with running is when I when I enter 100 mile race, it doesn't matter how fast I run the first 50 miles. Why? Why would I go fast? You know, my goal is to get from here to the end as fast as I can, which means a really measured approach where hydration and nutrition actually play a much bigger role than than physical fitness. And then mental fitness, whatever that means, not shall fit. You have to be in mentally to run 100 miles. But I always like to say that it's 90 percent mental and the rest is all in your head. Very good. I love it. So, you know, you are a master of endurance in these situations. Can you give people an example of, you know, how do you endure in difficult situations? You know, I think the endurance is a state of mind as much as it is an act of the body. And so very often people want, we all want our results right away, right? And so our experience, though, does tell us that it takes time to get where we want to go. And the journey is, in fact, worth it. So if it's a physical journey, it is a matter of some moderation until you until your body adapts, until you're comfortable. A good example would be if you've ever been to altitude, to high altitude. So how do you feel when you first get there? You know, it's terrible, right? So if you give yourself that time and you don't even have to do anything, you just have to breathe and sleep and hydrate and do all of these things. You know, your body will do its job all on its own if you let it. So I think the thing about endurance is really just a matter of being patient with endurance, both physically and mentally, and setting yourself up for success by understanding it's a long-term commitment, not a sprint. OK, so your book Running Man described, this is a memoir, right? Indeed. OK. I tell it all. Tell me, in 2010, you were convicted of mortgage fraud. Indeed. And the conviction you say is unjust, which is fine. And you went on to serve 16 months in prison. And then how did that come about? Yeah, well, interestingly, it is, in some ways, a direct result of the notoriety that came from running the Sahara. You know, the other piece of the puzzle that we didn't discuss and I'm still very proud of is that, you know, Matt and I created a nonprofit called H2O Africa, which today is called Water.org. So out of running the Sahara is the world's largest clean water nonprofit. And we passed, you know, a billion dollars in funding recently. And so out of a crazy idea with no expectations, you know, good things can blossom, bad things can also blossom. You know, I lived in small town North Carolina, attracted the attention of one particular IRS agent who saw the film and decided that he wasn't interested in what I did, but rather in his opinion, how I did it. And without all the minutiae, it's in the book. And I never came out and defended because in today's society, you know, defending yourself as the surest way to be skewered. And so I actually just kept my mouth shut and let other people, the New York Times, a lot of other journalists and professionals examine the situation and basically make their own choice to come out and defense. Long story short, I was the only person in the United States at that time to actually be charged with overstating my income on a home loan application from 2005. I've heard of that recently happening. Yeah. So there's right. There are it has progressed as we've gone forward, you know, to other people. But at the time I was essentially the only person being charged with this. And I fought it because I didn't do it. And I was actually found not guilty of doing it, interestingly, but guilty of other other things like mail fraud, because I took a closing package and put it in a mail, even though it had information in there, excuse me, that you're getting choked up over this. I've been talking a lot, but, you know, the idea that the idea that this happened to me was incredibly unfair. Yet the addict part of me to bring it all the way back around, you know, part of me believed that I was getting something I deserved. You know, I mean, that psychologically, I understand the way my own brain works pretty well, at least in hindsight. And, you know, once I was scared, you know, I was scared. I mean, I went to trial. I fought it. I got sentenced to 21 months, 16 of it that I did actually in prison and two and a half way house. And it needless to say it changed everything. You know, and overnight I was there were no more speaking gigs or, you know, sponsors or anything else. It was everything. I was kind of purged from my own life in a single day. So you could have taken this opportunity to feel really victimized and maybe head right back down into the gutter. But you took this to inspire you and inspire others. So what happened? You know, I had spent years doing motivational type speaking and telling other people that, you know, what happens to us isn't nearly as important as what we do about it. Things happen to everybody, good and bad. And your response to that is what matters? Well, that's easy to say when most of the things are in this little middle ground. You know, I maybe had more highs and lows than most people, but I finally, through no choice of my own, had the opportunity, let's say, to to, you know, to act in the way that I had been speaking for years. And, you know, the day I literally reported my my teenage boys dropped me off in front of federal prison, you know, on Valentine's Day 2011. And I kissed them goodbye and walked through that gate. And I was scared and I was angry, you know, I was angry about what had been done to me. Right. Yeah. And it took about a day for me to figure out that I wasn't going to make it if I was going to be bitter and angry. And this this situation was untenable under those circumstances. And so who I was going to be in in there behind bars was totally up to me. And it was still my decision whether or not I was going to do it in a way that was impactful, not only for me, but for other people. And I did what I always do. I ran. I I went there and I the first chance I got, I sort of running around the rec yard. And if we were in lockdown, I would run for six hours at a time in my cell in place. Well, and I mean, I looked more than a little crazy, I'm sure. But which isn't necessarily a bad thing in prison. It can be helpful. But and people did sort of like steer a wide path. But slowly, I mean, you I think, actually, I'm getting ready to like step right into your, you know, incredible wheelhouse, which is so much of life as attraction rather than promotion. You know, you can you can talk about things all you want, but people are more attracted to action. They they if they see results in you, then they want to come do what you do. And if you switch that over and if I switch that over and spend too much time telling other people what they should do, like, you know, whatever, then for me, it gets a little tricky. But what happened in there is guys started coming up to me saying, hey, you know, can I can you teach me how to run? And when I got there, there were probably three or four guys running regularly. And when I when I left, I had a I had a running group of 50 guys and I had 25 of them doing yoga with me like three days a week out on the softball field. And 11 guys lost more than 100 pounds. And, you know, most of these men had never had any any body ever pay any attention to them in a positive way, you know, physically and emotionally. And so it, you know, when I left, they thanked me. They're like, oh, you know, we're so grateful. I'm like, could just stay a couple more years. I was like, I got to go, but sorry. But the no, I say the same thing. And the thing is what they didn't understand at the time is what they did for me. I mean, they that experience actually got me through it. It wasn't the other way around, you know, it gave me purpose because we need that, you know, I believe. And it gave me energy and power and humility. And a side note is, you know, I'm in there with, you know, I feel sorry for myself for getting this 21 month sentence. And I'm in there next to, you know, a guy in the cell next to me who got, you know, 25 years for some tiny amount of, you know, crack cocaine or something. And like had his whole life taken away. So it's it's perspective very often. And it gave me a perspective that I'm a pretty freaking lucky guy. So you weren't in a white collar crime country club. No, this was a prison. This was, you know, this was a prison. And, you know, it was at Sartre, I think, who said, you know, prison is other people. Oh, no, hell is other people. Well, like that's, you know, the hardest part is being away from family. And of course, being surrounded by people 24 hours a day that you actually can't get away from. So finding a way through meditation, through, you know, I did my best to eat healthy as I could with really unhealthy choices. But, you know, those things are still a big part of my life. Yeah. So OK. So now you're out here, you're a convicted felon. So what happens after that? I mean, that was just a few years ago. Yeah. And it and it is the once again, I feel incredibly lucky to be who I am because most people get out of prison and they they they can never get a job, you know, and and they've got this F felon, you know, practically tattooed on them. And they end up on, you know, the public bowl for the rest of it. I mean, it's a it's a terrible fiscal decision for society, too, because it it's it punishes everybody. It punishes all of society not to give people better ways to reintegrate. But for me, I basically just did again what I always did. I started running and I took my energy and organized something called the icebreaker run, which was me and five other recovering drug addicts ran across the United States. We ran a relay 24 hours a day for 24 consecutive days to the like NAMI Mental Health Convention in Washington, D.C. And and it was to raise awareness for the need for greater mental health services in this country, you know, because so much of what we all experience in the news and personally daily and certainly out here in beautiful Southern California, where you've got a ridiculously difficult, homeless issue, it's so much of it is wrapped around mental health. So I just, you know what, doc? I just kept doing the things that I do and kept moving forward because continuous forward movement pretty much will always win out over over the rolling up in a fetal position option. So good for you. So OK, so you've done all this wonderful stuff and now you're not satisfied. You're going to do a four thousand five hundred mile trek from the shore of the Dead Sea to the peak of Mount Everest. You're not just going to go to base camp. That would be why, you know, it's like it's pretty at base camp, but I hear it's prettier on top. So so when and why when and why are you doing this? Yeah, so the idea actually came about, you know, 10 years ago, the way so many things do they take a long time to work out. But I metaphorically speaking, I'd had a lot of high lows and highs in my life and it literally just popped into my head. Why don't I go from the lowest place on the planet to the highest and carry a little flask of water from the Dead Sea and pour it out on the top of Everest and join these two ends of the earth in a symbolic gesture. So symbolism is great, but then there's hard work. Yeah, so I'm very happy to say that I have even just recently put together an amazing film team, a group of sponsors and partners that are that we're announcing soon. And I'm actually not just doing Dead Sea to Everest. What I'm actually doing is going from the lowest place on each continent to the highest point on that continent. And the first one's only only a couple of months from now, Africa. So I'm going from the lowest place in Africa, which is the lake over in Djibouti across Ethiopia through the Rift Valley in the Kenya with the Masaimara region to Tanzania and up Kilimanjaro to the top. So yeah, I'm doing it with a buddy of mine, Andre, who I was lead with this. You know, Andre is noticeable for a lot of reasons, but Andre has no legs. So he won the White Ironman World Championship Disabled Division a few years ago and he's hand-cycled across the U.S. And, you know, it's, as you can tell, I like telling stories. And the mechanism for me to do that is to go out and do things and hopefully have an opportunity to, you know, hopefully gently tug some people along with us, either online or even a few in person and just remind people that, you know, yes, their balance is needed in some ways in life, but you can't find balance on the sofa. You need to get out and do something. So, you know, you've talked about the mental aspect of running. So what kind of what kind of tricks can you give people to get them through taking on a new activity or taking on an unpleasant task to get where they want to go? So I've one I've one trick for sure, because people do this to me all the time. They come up and they say, gosh, you know, I really want to be I really want to run, but I hate running. So my answer first and foremost to them is, look, you know, if you go into your job every day and you say, I hate this job or you go home every day and you're like, I hate this relationship. Guess what? You know, you really are putting yourself in a place where you can't win. So a certain amount of self deception can be healthy. You know, so if you're going to try any kind of exercise program, any kind of new nutrition program, you in my view, you can't start it from the premise of I hate this. You know, that kind of self talk really makes it difficult. So find a way around that by you don't have to say you love it, but maybe at least don't say out loud that you hate it. I think that's it's not even just a trick. It's just a basic idea of ingraining yourself with a positive outlook towards this new challenge. You referenced earlier that that first step is not even, you know, the first step is really out the door. And I think the biggest mistake people make is I am an instinctive trainer. I'm an instinctive runner. So if you ask me how many miles I'm running tomorrow, I have no idea. I don't know how I'm going to feel tomorrow. And I think people become a slave to schedule and without listening to their body and sort of taking in the information that they've got in any given moment. So I think finding a way to be more intuitive about it, hopefully that intuition doesn't say stay on the sofa. But, you know, to be intuitive and to actually to actually just budget your time because most people, their biggest problem they say is time, right? So if I tell them to go run five miles, it seems daunting. They're staring at their watch constantly. If I say budget 30 minutes, can you budget 30 minutes? They're like, yeah, I'm like, OK, all you're going to do, you're just going to go walk. You're going to walk. You're going to start walking. If you feel good, you might jog for five minutes, then walk some more and 15 minutes into it, you turn around, you go back. And if you just get yourself to do that a few days a week. I mean, just like with nutrition, you've got to make the commitment to try it. And if you give it one week and quit because you haven't seen the results, then you were wasting your time to begin with, right? You know, if you're only going to give it that short time or whatever, then you weren't serious about getting the results, in my opinion. Yeah, I've said this before, but I actually write people prescriptions to get a dog. I literally on a prescription. Can you write me one? Yeah, that would be fantastic. We really needed that. And they actually bring it back framed and say this is the best prescription a doctor has ever done for me because a dog forces you out the door. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, and to me, seeing the joy, we have three dogs, we usually have four, but seeing the joy that a dog gets outdoors and it's just, you know, you get, you forget the shin splints and you forget. And you really do. Well, that joyful feeling is what people can get if they if they do it the right way. And you sharing it with other people, finding a buddy to do some running with is a much easier way to do it also. All right. So as you know, I think nutrition is way up on the pyramid of important things for your health. Tell me about nutrition and what you do. Where is it in the scheme of things? Yeah, good question. So I grew up in the South. We'll we'll preempt it with that and a very meat centric kind of an upbringing. And about 20 years ago, I decided I did decide to make a change. And I went to a vegetarian diet today. Of course, we I don't use the word vegan, but just because it's it brings up so many weird connotations today. But plant based is what you would absolutely call me. And, you know, I am fully plant based and have been for a really long time at this point. And it has worked really well for me, you know, for the for the challenges that I have. That said, here I am sitting. I mean, one of the things that I pride myself on is this idea that I always have more to learn. And I think one of the big mistakes people make, whether it's physical activity or nutrition or anything else, is they they think they've got it licked and they close their minds to, you know, new ideas. And I am I'm very interested to read your book and to find out a little more about. Well, I am very much plant based, but I try to tell people there are certain plants that like you and certain plants that don't like you. And anytime anybody worries about getting protein, I just remind them that a gorilla and a horse are plant based animals and they have more muscles than we will ever have, even you. Totally. No, I could not agree more, actually. And and I'm I'm really intrigued about some of the things that I've read that that you promote and that your studies have shown. And it'll be a fascinating journey for me. So stay tuned. All right, great. Keep us in mind one on the way up. Yeah. OK, before we go, you know, I am a huge proponent of exercise and I write about it, but I do believe there is too much of a good thing. And off camera, I mentioned to you that Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple and the Primal Blueprint, who was in his prime, a great marathoner and a great ultra marathoner. Sure. Now at least tells me, and I think he said this publicly, that the farthest a human being should run is 100 yards because of the toll. Long, long term cardio has in my view on the heart, what say you? Well, what if the police are chasing you, Dr. Ghandry? I mean, then can you run more than 100? I mean, well, yeah, believe it or not, I think I think we actually were designed to run about 100 yards to get away from a wild boar. Well, for hunting, I mean, I will all do respect to Mark. I mean, I, you know, the one thing that takes that doesn't take into account is, in my view, what Mark should be saying is that Mark should not run more than 100 yards at a time, because it's none of his business how much I run, you know? And it's and it really is the mistake that I think a lot of experts make is putting a massive blanket over everyone. And that blanket statement covers everybody. I mean, we are, you know, we are soup, as I like to say, you know, with all these different genetic inputs and and then, of course, environmental situations, too. And for me to not run would be I could find another way. Look, I'm a cyclist. I do hot yoga. I do like I like doing all kinds of physical activities. You know, I mean, to not run. I mean, for for someone to say blanket that nobody should run more than 100 yards, I think is is trying a little too hard to make a provocative statement that he can get a response. I don't I don't, you know, all right, I'm going to I'm going to put in a softball right over the plate for you. I'm left handed. OK, so what do you say to all the people? Look at the people who are dying during odds. Yeah, I got the question two weeks ago. A guy said three marathoners died at the Chicago marathon. I mean, is running dangerous? I said, yes, it is. I said, but, you know, there were five thousand six hundred seventy three people that died on their sofa last weekend for God's sake, do not sit on your sofa. Because to me, that is a place that clearly kills people. So sitting kills, no doubt. Well, and, you know, look, I am I don't claim that running people people look for absolutes to say that running is absolutely healthy for everyone. That would also be an idiotic statement. You have to find what that thing is for you. And do it, you know, whatever it is, physical activity, walking, yoga, something, just get out there and get it done. And hydration is the other thing, which apparently I'm not well hydrated today, but I think that that's the other big thing that people miss is that they forget the one key ingredient that we're all made of and and and maybe don't drink quite enough. So going to all these exotic locations and spending huge amounts of time with it. Does it ever feel like it's taking you away from more important things? Yes, you know, and I and I write freely about it in my book in the sense that my my kids it's really not a running book. It's a it's a life book. You know, my kids who are both in their 20s, two boys, we're very honest in our family and they sat down with me, you know, a while back and some just family time and said, you know, we like who you are. We're proud of you for what you've done, but we actually wish you'd been around more when we were kids. And and I do say to them that I understand and and that they are they're right, but there's also the I think some parents forget that giving your entire life over to your children, all of it and and having your singular focus be raising those kids is not a sustainable. I mean, I guess it is maybe the definition of sustainable, but who wants just sustainable? You know, my kids now are, you know, traveling in China and they're going and they are they'll get on a bus or a plane or something and they'll spend their money on experiences and not on things. And so hopefully it's been a balance. All right, because my new book, The Longevity Paradox is out and on the New York Times best soloist and thank you, everybody, ask everybody on the program. What's one thing that our listeners can do for a healthier, longer life? And I think we've kind of talked about that. But one thing, hydration, I know I just said it a moment ago, but I'm actually going to I'm actually going to hammer that. And if I want to make an addendum sleep, I was one of those people who thought I was special for a long time. And I only need four or five hours of sleep. And, you know, and I'm I'm just I function at a higher level than other people. Right. Right. And when I made a commitment about five years ago, is how long it took to just to make sure I got my eight hours of sleep every night, it changed everything. It allowed for good nutrition. You know, you can take all the great supplements and you can do new all of that you want. And if you get in lousy sleep and you're not hydrated, it doesn't give your body a chance to even use that. So, right? You're absolutely right. No, you're absolutely right. We had Ariana Huffington a few months ago on, you know, I saw that who really thought she could get away with four and five hours until she broke her face on a desk, you know, just high succeeding people have a very high opinion of themselves. And I mean, I don't need that. Right. I don't need that. That's for that's for lesser people or people who need sleep. And we all need it. And we will function better during our wake day times, you know, hours when when we get good sleep. So thanks for asking. All right. Yeah, that's a great advice. All right, Charlie, it's been great to have you on the podcast today. How do people find you? How do they support your track? Thank you for that. Yeah, just I'm super simple. Charlie Engle dot com. All my social media is just my name, Charlie Engle, and it's latest project, which links to everything else is just five point eight project dot com five point eight project dot com. So on that note, that's it for the Doctor Gundry podcast this week. Thanks for joining us. See you on Everest. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast because I'm Doctor Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.